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July 27, 2021


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Bravo to you for posting this. While working with the side screen playing the live cast of the testimonies of these brave officers, I thought of writing a comment exactly about the Truth and relative truth of some people (read mostly lies, or truthiness at best), and was wishing Brian write about this as an example. Lo and behold, you already did! Can you read minds?

Those intellectuals that start revolutions, turn against the Establishment of the day, seldom suffer the consequences of what they preach. Read the history books. The masses have always been "used"... because they can be used, ... emotionally, intellectually and physical.

These intellectuals "feed" the minds of the masses with their propaganda and have the masses do the work for them.

Poor masses that take literally what is just suggestive and figurative .... under the excuse of truth finding, peoples mind are stuffed to the brim with selective interests.

Radh(erNot)Soami, no, I can't read minds. But what's even more wonderful is that two separate minds, like yours and mine, can look at the same moving testimony of the police officers and have a similar reaction to their speaking the truth honestly, forthrightly, without equivocation.

Yes, yes ... the masses have been fed, day in day out for years with talk shows where the establishment is ridiculed, etc to the greater fun of the intellectual ... what is sown has to be reaped.

They have been the example to the greater public that the establishment need not to be taken serious ... well that message has now arrive in the masses.

The day will come it will arrive at the very door of those who propagated it .. than they will repend .... too late

Hi Um
You wrote:
"Yes, yes ... the masses have been fed, day in day out for years with talk shows where the establishment is ridiculed, etc to the greater fun of the intellectual ... what is sown has to be reaped."

Maybe you and I are watching different television, because I have never seen Donald Trump and Co depicted as intellectuals. His propagandists fomented this insurrection, taking advantage of the ignorance and uneducated. They attempted to undermine our entire system of Democracy. The substantial amount of verification on this election was unprecedented, and yet to them, no testimony, no evidence was acceptable.

No amount of evidence was accepted as legitimate. No amount of testimony was regarded as legitimate.

Why? Because they were steeped in their agenda of hate.

"Well I voted for Joe Biden. Does that not count?"

But the crowd, instead of consenting, acknowledging this officer's right to believe and vote as he wished, as an equal, as a legitimate American, started calling the officer names, racial slurs etc.

This is what happens when a marginalized group of zealots believes only they know the Truth and every other opinion must be wrong. It is a natural next step to malign, to even torture those who don't believe as they do.

It's a danger to believe that "my way is the truth. You are false."

@ Spence

Before one sees a tree it was a sapling and before that a seed.

I am not speaking of Trump.

Just watch your talk shows and how they deal with representatives of the people, and how it has changed over time.

In Europe after the war, an minister would be addressed in public as "your excellency"
an the idea to question him would not arise in anybodies mind.

Today, no day passes, when not an official has to appear before the "media tribunal" where he or she is questioned as if he or she was a child ... it appears as the fake processes in the totalitarian regimes some decades ago.

If intellectuals, publicly "piss on the heads" of those that are legally chosen to represent and govern thew country you are begging the masses to act as little children when the teacher has to leave the class for a moment.

Now .. you ask yourself who did sow these seeds of anti authority thinking

Hi Um

I see what you are saying. If we don't respect our institutions, all we get is complete distrust, the very trust necessary for society to function. Yes, it feels like this is exactly what's happening. Seeds of cynicism and distrust do appear to have been on the rise. And when folks fuel that cynicism, can they then expect respect and trust from others of a different view? The very fabric of society depends upon trust.

Let us hope that a more inclusive sentiment of trust, teamwork, and an honest respect for diversity begin to emerge again.

@ Spence

I am glad you rewrote what I intended ... and ... the worst is still to come.

These institutions and the respect for these institutions are like the mortar in a house that holds the individual stones together. If that mortar turns in to sand, losing its cohesive, binding caoacities, the building can collapse any moment.

In our family we were all trained to respect authority ..authority derived from author, the one that is allowed to speak. Authority is an covenant between two parties, in which ONE side is given the right to "speak" ... without being asked to prove that what he says is correct, pleasing or whatever.

If that authority, that given right to one party, is no longer accepted there are two roads ... [1] by force have the words obeyed ... or ....[2] the crumbling down of institutions.
both the most miserable outcome to be wished for.

Never ever question the authority of parents, teachers and representatives of the people.

Authority as a precious gift from the people to others to .... serve them

Hi Um
Thank you for that. It all connects, perhaps in a new way for me.
The basic morter holding society together.

The burden on the authority to behave, more, to lead, is significant.

But they can only do this with trust.

So did the distrust begin with our trusted authorities? Perhaps it was a gradual decline.

And then the parasites come in and at to the problem.

And the solution? They leader who will restore basic trust? I think he is there. The one who wants to work with those of different views, with respect.

Can he do enough to undo the damage?

@ Spence

Nothing can be done ... we are awaiting a new society, an ri-nascimento after the dark middle ages.

The new society will be built with the bricks individuals have carried over the rubicon. These bricks are the things they value so much, that they will take them with themselves wherever they go.

There will be thousands, upon thousands that will take their individual [mental, spiritual] treasures with them and from these building blocks a new society will arise and ... nobody has any idea how it will look like.

So, the damage is done and there is no way to make mortar that has become running sand become mortar again.

Of course, it has been an gradual affaire.

Let me put it in another form....the drama of the rats.
If there is one rat pro square mile, he can do whatever he deems fit as there is no other rat to account with. When there are more rats, realing and dealing is needed to do whatever one wants, be it in an ugly way or sophisticated and social acceptable. With the number of rats pro square mile growing, the day comes that every movement, action or even thought will effect the welfare of the other rats. Then the old paradigms based upon personal freedom, interests etc will no longer acceptable and individual rats will be forced to take into account the welfare of the other rats before he is alowed to act.

It is not an matter of leaders etc ... it is a change in the mentality of the people in the line of .... do not ask what your country has to offer you, ask your self what you can do to serve your country.

Egocentric thinking is done by ..... A L L ....irrespective of there role in society.

If people do not DISCOVER the welfare of they other as important as their own welfare, nature will turn itself upon them and destroy them.

That is the outcome of a natural process of growth of a species ... we are not alone but are part of something else.

I hate to write these things.

@ Spence

And Spence if the medias can think that they are free to show the wealth of the west, in whatever they present on TV, show whatever misery and aberration they can imagine to bind the people to their channals .... they are wrong ....and .... stupid too.

By now the whole world has access to TV and for decades people living in misery, poverty,in totalitarian regimes all over the world have seen that it need not to be as they live in.

The same holds for the shameless exhibition of all sorts of wealth on tv, wealth that will never be within the reach of the ordinary people.

And the consequences of the climate zone ... those outside the moderate climate zone, will NEVER be able to develop the same standards of live as seen in these moderate zones because the energy needed to overcome the temperature differences in cold and heat are to high ... the development in Europe and america is IMPOSSIBLE in the sahara or the artic regions.

With some coffee all can understand that ... certainly gifted and educated people like yourself.

They will come an grab their chare, by the millions.
Lao Zi wrote about the wealthy man traveling showing his wealth and attracting the robbers.

enough is enough.

Thank you for sharing this powerful moment. Sadly, a lie will circle the globe, while truth is still tying its shoelaces to start the race.
Thank you for your thoughts. I agree wholeheartedly. Humanity needs a change in direction, a paradigm shift, that will not only ensure our survival but also of the planet.
Historically, all great leaders made tremendous personal sacrifices and practiced humility and patience. It seems their only motivation was betterment of others around them, not personal gain. Current leaders, and general public and institutions have forgotten many things, including the fact that sacrifice is the privilege of truly free individuals. Seeking or speaking truth has always required personal sacrifices. Unfortunately, current societal norms see humility, patience and sacrifice as weaknesses.

Hurt? 3 dozen people died during the protest. Like, literally dead.

No, not during the January 6th protest, but during the countless Floyd protests. 3 dozen people died, and many hundreds were injured.

No police officer died during the January 6 protest. 36 died during the "mostly peaceful" riots in places like Portland.

Dozens of people who did nothing more than trespass on government ground are still rotting in DC Jail, awaiting trial.

Were some officers hurt during Jan. 6th? Frankly, I have no idea. We are told that Officer Sicknick was killed with a blow to the head with a fire extinguisher, but that turned out to be a media lie. We were told that an officer "had" to shoot Ashley Babbit in the neck because she was climbing through a window, but we still don't even know the officer's name. We're told that we have to accept that it's OK for anonymous officers to kill unarmed women and go unquestioned, and of course, at the same time, we're also told that America faces a crisis from legions of racist police officers and courts of law.

The January 6 event is perhaps the greatest propaganda stunt since the Gulf of Tonkin incident. That's what I believe.

@ Tenzin

Things are what they are,
seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented.

Talking about who did what is a diversion from what everybody all over the world has been able to see on TV .... the storming of the Capitol..

All have been able to see with their own eyes, even if they do not understand the american political system, that it was done by an anarchistic mob and had nothing to do with the sentiments behind an revolution by the people.

It is scary to see the degradation of an democracy.

@ Brian Ji : "None of you would have had the courage to defend the capitol. You don't even have the courage to defend the truth, which requires no physical bravery, just moral strength. So learn from the four police officers. They have a lot to teach you. "

That co-opts all of truth with one's own perception of truth. Frustrated with the nuance
and intractability of this often difficult search for truth, we are tempted to seize a clearly
defined, outrageous event such as this and then try to shame those, whose opinions
differ from our own, by impugning their courage or even their moral strength to defend
truth at all.

We may talk of a teachable moment. In moments of frustration, that applies to all.

I suggest that so long as we make enemies of each other, things will deteriorate. But every day we have the ability to do the opposite, however rare that is, to reach out and find common ground.

Let's make that common.

To respect each other as different, but essentially equal brothers and sisters in the same family. Even to find the nuggets of truth in all these different viewpoints. And to see that diversity of views as our society's strength.

To forgive one another is where healing begins.

And to do that, to really forgive from the heart means doing so unilaterally and without condition.

Not an easy path. Not a quick path.

But no healing happens without it.

This is where the true and most difficult acts of courage are found. Within ourselves.

Treating each other as equals with respect. Helping even those who believe differently. This is what distinguishes the nobility of these officers. Because they did this on the day of the insurrection.

And in respect for their professionalism, how we should act as well.

Dear Brian,

A while ago your were claiming that Trump and the storming of the Capitol building was due to religious beliefs, with the clear insinuation there is a deep connection between metaphysical beliefs and experiences with such behaviour.

You have, also, made such baseless claims and inferences numerous times in the past.

This is precisely the sort of ideological dogmatism that is part of the world's problems today, a blind-sidedness to the real causes of the world's issues based on an ideological fundamentalism that narrows one's reality so much so all the worlds problems are blamed on your ideological scapegoat of religion.

All the nonsense about your being a scout for truth, viewing reality as it is etc is just self-serving, self-delusional nonsense that only ideologues who share you clear and blatant biases, blindspots etc would not notice are as clear as day.

No, it is not religion or a belief (or, gasp, experience) of metaphysical realities that are a cause of the problems in the America or the rest of the world today, and certainly, certainly not behind the rise of Trump and the storming of the capital. That would just be your ideological and dogmatic delusion.

It is beyond ironic that you keep claiming to view reality, whereas it is clear you are just parroting and repeating clichéd and factually erroneous anti-theistic dogma and nonsense, and in the process ignoring the real, infinitely more complex and nuanced, causes behind these issues, and by implication perpetuating them.

Whilst you claim to view reality, it would be abundantly clear to anyone actually able to view reality AS IT IS rather than through the filters of dogma and ideology, be it theistic or anti-theistic or whatever (it is hilarious, on a site called church of the churches, that it is not blindingly obvious that dogma and ideological is not limited to theists.....how utterly, utterly inane), that you are not doing anything of the sort but are instead entirely enamoured with your atheist & scientism dogma and merely preaching it to the choir of your readers who think you have some sort of insight merely because you form an echo chamber for their own views.

THAT is real insight into how intellectual, ideological and dogmatic beliefs blind us to REALITY, and how they perpetuate the problems of the world by not actually SEEING what the problems are, instead filtering them through absurd and irrelevant filters, such as anti-theism.

PS - I haven't been following or reading any of the recent irrelevant and dogmatic discussions re. God, mysticism and rationality, but if anyone is suggesting that the experiential knowingness of some sort of Divinity, the true nature of reality, being and consciousness etc occurs on the same level of intellect, rationality and reason as maths, real world events etc, then they are deeply mistaken. Although I am quite certain that, again, it is you Brian who are either deeply mistaken, or far more likely, deeply misrepresenting the arguments of several posters here.

Hi Manjit
Thank you for your comment.
I would like to address it briefly.
The range of human experience is fraught with error, yet no can say with integrity of an honest witness, "you didn't experience that." That hasn't proven to be a sustainable avenue to change, though people seem to like a good fight.

Years ago in the men's locker room of the y, I witnessed a conversation between a young man and an older man in incredible condition.

The older man had mentioned being a boxer in his youth.

The younger man said "you must have been a great fighter!"

And the older man smiled and said calmly, "Being a fighter is nothing. To be a lover, that is what's important, and far more difficult."

Science, painstakingly, unveils amazing facts and, step by step, emerges from opinion and bias, little by little, with hard universal truths. It is a great tool, but it can only be applied to certain things, because of the physical limitations, expense and time. So therefore many things remain unknown by science.

Human beings are caught between subjective reality and objective truth.

And yet their entire reality is subjective.
And yet it is also entirely objective, from their single point of view. It is 100% accurately their experience, however they interpret it later.

Brian Ji was addressing the harm that happens when people are so dyed in their desire that they cling to a biased perspective as truth and this blinds them to objective reality, what little we have access to. And people get hurt.

Your point that Brian Ji himself is guilty of this is only true to the extent we all are. Emotional situations trigger fear and anger in all of us. Harm to innocent people can do that.

Hence, as Um pointed out, the need for us to respect basic institutions, basic truths and each other, under all circumstances, as a basic necessity to live in a relatively free society, and not get caught up in hypercriticism, even hyper inspection of each other's views.

Because all our views, as you point out, are constructed at a very limited level. We all have feet of clay.

You may find it interesting to hear that the man who brought me into Sant Mat taught me this, so that I would not get caught up in my own idealism, and be unprepared for that moment of truth when my own weaknesses came to light. Nor to be surprised by any such things in anyone else, including, yes, the Master. Tommy gave me tools, incredible tools that became more valuable with each passing year.

But this willingness not to expect perfection from each other, nor ourselves, to forgive ourselves and others, and to allow people to cling to "whatever gets you through the night," This actually allows a diverse family to live under one roof.

We are all trying to be objective, and we all have our particular story. And we all have nuggets of sincere truth in our ignorance.

And no one should be dismissed or discounted.

We are all here, we are all family, and evolution needs all hands on deck.

Let's own our own story while celebrating the diversity of others.

As for Trump and his followers, many things led to that. I see the man as evil. But in truth he is just a real voice for a very frightened crowd that has become angry, and found representation, hope and even kindness in his anger. There is a truth there we mustn't ignore. The insurrection happened because they were being dismissed, not heard. Worse, depicted as evil people.

There must be a place for those living in so much fear they target other human beings as the cause of their problems. Because they are a real part of our world. And once in a while we are a part of that group.

What can we do to help, in stages, alleviate their fear?

Perhaps acknowledging it as their legitimate personal experience, to respond to the objective issues, and then helping educate to a broader understanding of that experience, and work tgether on low risk things with their perceived enemies, that help build trust and teamwork, and friendship.

It's an old story with a single solution each of us can participate in, in our own lives.

Let's learn to be better lovers.

>>No, it is not religion or a belief (or, gasp, experience) of metaphysical realities that are a cause of the problems in the America or the rest of the world today,.....<<

There are many causes and some are from a past nearby and others are related to the founding fathers of the USA.

Some in the family have dairy farm and from them I learned about selective breeding, in order to get strong, good looking cows.

Humans too, maybe not consciously, are the outcome of selective breeding.

To understand the characteristics of an population one has to delve into the "material" that is used and the circumstances they were raised.

Who all came to the USA and for what reasons?
What had the population to face in the course of history.?

Just a hint ... the effect of an war on the society as a whole and on individuals in particular, will last for generations. The effect can be so negative, even if one is part of the "right" side, that one has rightful fears that it will corrupt society. Just read something about it on the site of the Israeli Soldiers that have chosen to inform the public about the abuse of power committed by their own army. They do so not out of compassion for the the occupied people but because it has hardened their mind and soul so much so that their dear an near ones have to pay the price.

America has been involved in almost all wars since WWII that comes at an price, not only for those who were seen as their enemies but also on the country, its negrlected infrastructure, the people's mind etc.

And even the civil war is not ended by now.

Fact is that over time an class is created that has no future and the circumstance they have to live in can be compared with the "best" 3 world countries.

Religion and the 2 party system is just the armor that people wear but in reality they are fighting for a future that will not come ... an ... they know that, THE ALL HAVE TV ... were they can see daily the life of the happy few, where they are told what is needed to live a decent life as a human being, things they will never see in their life time.

Trump didn't arise out of the blue ...the masses use him and he is used by the masses

@ Spence

>> What can we do to help, in stages, alleviate their fear?<<

Give them a future to work for ... emotional, intellectual, spiritual, economical, social and cultural.

The motives strategies etc that were good to help develop the society by the founding fathers, are out dated and no longer suitable. ... the USA is no longer .... an Prairie ... there are no longer indigenous tribes to be conquered, slavery is no longer an means of labor etc etc.

"Dear Brian,

A while ago your were claiming that Trump and the storming of the Capitol building was due to religious beliefs, with the clear insinuation there is a deep connection between metaphysical beliefs and experiences with such behaviour."


manjit, Brian can address his own POV himself should he want to, but if you'll permit me to cut in briefly and present my perspective on this, then perhaps I can clarify what appears to me to be a misunderstanding on your part.

It isn't that Trump cultists regard Trump and what he represents in literally religious terms. (Although in some fringe cases even that literal religiosity of their regard for Trump is fact, like in how they see Trump's coming in terms of Armageddon; but those would be a distinct minority. Most Trump cultists' regard for Trump isn't literally religious.)

However, just as the religious often resort to irrational and unscientific thinking in order to justify their superstitions, and are entirely impervious to reason when it comes to those superstitions, similarly, those who're hooked onto Trumpism support the man and everything he represents in spite of reason and rationality and the actual evidence clearly pointing the other way.

There is this essential similarity between the beliefs of the religious and the beliefs of the Trump cultists, but the two aren't literally identical (except, like I said, for a small minority fringe within these Trump cultists).


Incidentally, this is not to suggest that all spirituality is necessarily irrational. (Although I'm no longer sure I can say that about religion, to be honest.) As far as spirituality, as opposed to religion, --- and spirituality, as opposed to some particular organized religious faith, is where I know your own interests lie --- I see no reason why that cannot also be addressed, and explored, without cutting corners as far as rationality and a scientific temper.

In practice, though, unfortunately, that rationality and that scientific temper is often found missing in terms of how people address these issues. To that extent there is this similarity between the Trump cultists' worldview with the worldview of those who espouse metaphysical beliefs (not in terms of the actual content of those beliefs, except in the case of a very small subset, but in terms of how they often, and in practice, end up arriving at and holding on to those beliefs and to their particular worldview).

Appreciative Reader wrote: "manjit, Brian can address his own POV himself should he want to, but if you'll permit me to cut in briefly and present my perspective on this, then perhaps I can clarify what appears to me to be a misunderstanding on your part."

Hi Appreciative Reader.

There is no need for Brian to address his own POV, they are simplistic, obvious, one dimensional and entirely predictable, just the sort of beliefs we would expect an insentient, free-will lacking automaton to mind-lessly spout.

In regards what appears to be a misunderstanding on your part, perhaps I can clarify for you?

The ways in which there are similarities between some Trump supporters and those who hold irrational religious or dogmatic beliefs are beyond obvious and require no expanding on, so obvious they are.

However, your radical misunderstanding of my point is this, that ignoring those issues, Brian's likewise ideological and dogmatic beliefs in anti-theism are just as much a part of the problem as a belief in theism. It is beyond obvious that Brian is just as susceptible to irrational, incoherent and factually erroneous beliefs (even when corrected, for eg. I corrected his factually incorrect statement that the Japanese do not believe in God by presenting him with a thoroughly researched article with facts and statistics that clearly showed the Japanese have a far deeper belief in Gods than Western countries. As is usually the case with ideologues and dogmatists unable to deal with reality as it is, he ignored this factual reality and again repeated this false claim recently), and that in his unquestioning acceptance of his own beliefs, he actually misses the reality of the situation and contributes to the problem by diverting attention from the real causes (such as right wing atheists) and projecting them upon a false straw man, such as metaphysical beliefs.

Of course, to understand and accept what I write above requires some modicum of ability to think outside the narrow confines of one's own dogma and ideology, beyond egoic motivation such as an inability to acknowledge one's short-sighted mistakes and thinking in a public forum, and an ability to hold reality within models somewhat more nuanced, complex, sophisticated and thereby accurate than "all religion is bad, hum-kay. All atheists are scouts for truth, hum-kay" etc etc.

Which is why I find the tone of sarcasm and ridicule to be the only honest tone for this forum and this discussion, because there is a bat in hell's chance that is going to occur.

Hi Um
You wrote
"Give them a future to work for ... emotional, intellectual, spiritual, economical, social and cultural."

Beautiful and elegant Truth.

An interesting experiment was conducted in which they gave a rat in a cage an electric shock randomly. Eventually, the rat stopped running around and accepted his shock stoically. When they put two rats in the cage they blamed each other, fought, and eventually one was killed.

Similarly, ego-stressed individuals blame others and run around fighting ideological wars. They will not face the fundamental pain of separation, temporariness, and loss.

To hold chaotic, nihilistic beliefs is to be in pain. To distract from that pain we must blame others. To think society or any individual should stop blaming others and face their own suffering is at best naive. It is not going to happen. We will all continue to endlessly blame and argue with each other to distract from the suffering our beliefs cause.

>>To distract from that pain we must blame others.<<

MUST ???

Itś best to be a freethinker in my humble opnion.

If everyone can think their ´own thoughts´ with respect to eachother..that would be so good..

<3 <3 <3 < 3<3

Itś terrible that democracy is not the rule these period of time.

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