It's been quite a while since there's been any news about the financial scandal involving the Singh brothers (Malvinder and Shivinder), their relative Gurinder Singh Dhillon (guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas), Sunil Godhwani (who used to be the guru's close advisor), and others.
But a few days ago this story appeared in The Economic Times. Similar stories ran in some other publications.
It's good to see that the Delhi High Court revoked the bail that allowed Shivinder Singh to stay out of detention, a goal being to uncover the conspiracy hatched by Shivinder and to trace the funds that were siphoned off from Religare Finvest Ltd.
Previous news stories have indicated that Dhillon and his family received some of those funds, which naturally raises the question of whether the guru was part of the conspiracy. This case has been under investigation for a long time. It looks like it will continue to be investigated.
Here's screenshots of The Economic Times story.
The Dodgy brothers were first held on remand, I believe, 18 months ago. To say that the wheels of Indian justice are moving slowly, is quite an understatement.
Perhaps Covid-19 is slowing down the investigative process nevertheless, this is a critical case for an Indian government keen to show investors that India is a “safe” place to do business
As for GSD, and his family, one way or another, he’s obviously involved in the rip-off. This is simply an irrefutable fact given the companies & bank accounts utilised for the siphoning and misappropriation of funds. However, time will tell whether, in the eyes of the prosecutors, this was as an unwitting stooge or a Kingpin.
I’m sure members of his entourage remain in custody (ie Godwani), aswell as the crooked brothers
Posted by: JS | June 16, 2021 at 10:24 PM
The innocent brothers are imprisoned and so wrongfully too.
The real Convict is the Fraudulent Gurinder Singh Dhillion & his free loading Family.
GSD has robbed the brothers blindly out of Millions and now, lives a happy life of luxury in denial. While they rott in jail.
GSDs Sons got they're cut too and now they're also enjoying the Millions that they're Father GSD so honestly earned.
Blood, sweat and hard work always pays!
Prime example of "Honest living" hey Brian LoL
This little parasite needs to be caught out and made to answer so many real questions, and that honestly too.
Not like the crap he's been feeding to the guilable sangat in one of his so called, ask/ don't ask, ask/ don't ask Q & A sessions.
Delhi high Court would love one of your special visits. But are they lucky enough to have you're blessed Darshan or are you still somewhat shyingly hiding, Praying that it all goes away?
Hide all you want but the truth always wins
You'll get yours eventually, karmas on its way...welcome it. You so, deserve it
Posted by: Manoj | June 17, 2021 at 01:31 PM
GSD is a desperate man, trying to befriend modi , offering his ashram for covid service while he vanishes to England in a private jet - is this the workings of a god in human form offering healing to the sick? Are these not clever manipulative actions to influence the court in his favour? Everyone knows he is hiding by acting as a perfect guru ( more like a sicko clown) but people are now beginning to see through his lies and spell - ofcourse the hardcore sevadar still think they will get 40 virgins in RSSB heaven. GSD, the womenizer, the FRAUDULENT baba, the tyrant your days are numbered, justice will be served.
Posted by: Uchit | June 17, 2021 at 02:39 PM
No justice is ever served.
The clever get away with murder.
Those with no political influence pay the price.
You call this justice?
MODI himself is corrupt. No real spiritual guru will befriend him.
Maharaj Charan Singh never ever made friends with political leaders. He never needed any favours from them. He never chased money or made his family rich from his position as guru. He had moral standards.
Not the same can be said for his successor.
One very simple observation. The brothers who are now in jail, help set up GSD and his family to be millionaires. However, when they needed help from GSD, he and his family chose to ignore their cry for help. This shows no gratitude for all they did for GSD and his family.
Clearly they are now enemies.
If GSD’s sons were in jail instead of shivinder and malvinder, I am sure GSD would do all he could do to help.
Is this how a spiritual guru behaves? Then there is the immoral method of expanding the dera by stealing land from farmers. What is wrong with paying them the market value? After all, they have enough money.
What matters is what a person does, not what he says. In the Q&A he tells his followers to do the right thing. Nobody questions him or asks him why he himself does not live by the same standards.
Posted by: The Truth | June 18, 2021 at 04:43 PM
@The Truth
Well said. That pretty much sums it all up.
Posted by: Sonia | June 18, 2021 at 11:21 PM
Is Malvinder still in prison?
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 19, 2021 at 05:49 AM
It does seem to me, basis what I've seen here, that Shivinder and Malvinder have been hard done by. Made absolute fools of, and had their silver spoon yanked off their mouth and yanked right up their backside.
If this true --- I add this conditionality because my own impression is at second hand (third-hand, in fact, to be precise), and so I realize that it could be I'm mistaken after all, since I'm not privy to all details --- anyway, I was saying, if the two brothers have legitimate reason to feel hard done by, then I'd suggest that one way they might compel to GSD to pay them back and/or to help clear their name (provided their name legitimately deserves clearing) is by going fully public with their story. Not just in newspapers, but actually targeting the RSSB faithful and spilling the beans, in full detail.
I'm sure both brothers do have the capacity to do that. They do have contacts aplenty, both by virtue of having been big wheels in the corporate world, as well as because of their relationship with the earlier guru. So they should use those contacts to repeatedly, and despite the inevitable pushback, broadcast their message out to all of the faithful.
That way the RSSB guru might be shamed into doing something to ease the two brothers' situation. (Again, always provided their situation does legitimately deserve to be eased.)
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 19, 2021 at 09:17 AM
Spence,
As of May 3rd Malvinder was still in jail and denied interim bail.
https://m.economictimes.com/news/india/delhi-court-junks-interim-bail-plea-of-ex-fortis-healthcare-promoter-malvinder-singh-in-pmla-case/articleshow/82374193.cms
Sunil Godhwani was granted interim bail in September and ordered back to jail in December.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/cities/delhi/2020/dec/05/religare-case-delhi-court-directs-rel-ex-cmd-to-surrender-before-tihar-jail-authorities-within-2-days-2232266.html
Posted by: umami | June 19, 2021 at 09:22 AM
Don't forget this fake guru has a brother in law, manjeetia, the drug and alcohol baron of Punjab, the badals and regularly has closed door meetings with politicians in dera. This tyrant believes he is untouchable. He became a father figure to mulvinder and shivinder after their father died, but little did they know he was thinking of lining his own pockets. Added to this was the death threats he gave to a record producer Sheetal Talwar, when he asked for his million pound donation back for GSDs cancer treatment. Also Sheena in her book , memoirs of a saint , who was a close secretary says he has zero bhagti. How can a man with over 16 shell companies do a days meditation?? . This fraudster needs to be put in jail with his RSSB brother Ram Ramhim.
Posted by: Slayer | June 19, 2021 at 03:18 PM
This case must be decided at the earliest. Govt must make a fast track court to solve such cases involving God in Human form and his blind followers.
Posted by: Arun Marwah | June 19, 2021 at 09:53 PM
The Truth posted: "Maharaj Charan Singh never ever made friends with political leaders. He never needed any favours from them. He never chased money or made his family rich from his position as guru. He had moral standards."
What do we know about Charan Singh's affairs, or how they were any different from Gurinder's in respect to contact with political leaders?
About money and the chasing thereof, we do know from TREASURE BEYOND MEASURE that Charan engaged in financial speculation with less than reliable people and lost a lot of money. It's to Charan's credit that he admitted this - - or was this book published after his death? Anyway, Charan was involved in at least one financial "deal," and who knows how many others there were.
In respect to money, it remains a great mystery to some of us (or just me) how Charan was able to luxuriously support himself and his family while working full time as RSSB's guru from 1951 to 1990. Some have alleged that Charan's family farm received help from the government for exemptions to farming restrictions, but I don't know whether this is true or not. In any event, I don't see any evidence that Charan was any better than Gurinder in respect to money morality.
Posted by: Tendzin | June 20, 2021 at 03:00 PM
Charan was only 34 years when he became the so called guru by contract which means he needed to support himself and family, luxuriously, for 39 years!!!! Things dont add up, I think we may have found another bent guru. Also it beggars belief why he appointed the now FRAUDULENT dhillon (his own blood nephew) if he himself was a perfect saint with physic insight. Seems like he wanted the dera property in the same blood line.
Posted by: Slayer | June 20, 2021 at 03:31 PM
What do we know about Charan Singh's affairs, or how they were any different from Gurinder's in respect to contact with political leaders?
We know a lot about Charan Singh and his standards as a human being. There are no known cases of any serious fraud in his lifetime. If he made a bad investment and lost money, that does not make him a criminal. Lots of people make bad investments.
Being involved in a financial deal is not the issue. Millions of people are involved in financial dealings that lose money. That is not “wrong”
It is common knowledge that he had a farm and earnings from that farm. He hardly lived a lavish lifestyle. He never jetted off in a private plane of had property all over the world. In most foreign countries he never even expanded RSSB into buying property. He was happy to hire halls for satsang rather than get involved in property buying.
He refused the position of guru and tried to run away and leave. In the end he stayed only by making it clear that he is just a normal human being.
Charan was not even remotely like Gurinder. He did not try to take land from local farmers. He did not make political allies. In every satsang it was announced that RSSB had no political affiliation with any party.
Posted by: The Truth | June 20, 2021 at 07:01 PM
GSD's brother-in-law Bikram Singh Majithia is an elected MLA from my village named Majitha in Amritsar. Majithia is a big goon and have been involved in many drugs dealings. Because of his political connections, law enforcement could not do any harm to him yet. My parents are blind disciples of Sant Rajinder Singh ji of SKRM. Like GSD, Sant Rajinder Singh also flew to USA during Ist wave of covid last year. I Wonder if they are godmen, then why are they afraid of panademic... Lots of unsolved mystries..
Posted by: Deepak | June 20, 2021 at 11:35 PM
Truth wrote of Charan Singh: " In the end, he stayed only by making it clear that he is just a normal human being. Charan was not even remotely like Gurinder. He did not try to take land from local farmers. He did not make political allies. In every Satsang it was announced that RSSB had no political affiliation with any party."
Again, all we really know is that both Charan and Gurinder dabbled in business "deals." All this stuff about Gurinder being guilty of fraud and beholden to political parties is speculation. However, we *can* say that there is more "smoke" where Gurinder is concerned than there ever was with Charan. We don't know of Charan being sued by someone who lent him a huge amount of money, nor do we have these scandals like Malvinder and his bunkies. But conclusive evidence that ties Gurinder to fraud is something we don't have. I've followed this topic for years and I still can't tell if Gurinder is wholly innocent or the ringleader of a huge financial scam. The thing that disturbs me most is that Malvinder turned on Gurinder and blame him for being the brains of the operation, which is a very strange thing for a follower to do to his Guru. But again, until we know where the money ended up and who ordered who to do what it's all speculation about who's to blame.
The land issues of the Dera proceed Gurinder by many decades.
To shift gears a bit, my main issue with Gurinder is the Q & A videos that come out every week. I've seen a number of them and they strike me as strange. They give credence to those who say Gurinder has instituted a Sant Mat 2.0. In these videos, Gurinder repeatedly says "I don't say that this is the only way to find God." How many times did Charan Singh (and all his predecessors) say precisely the opposite? As you point out, Charan did step back a bit in de-emphasizing his role as Guru, but Gurinder seems to have taken things to an extreme in that vein. It's all rather weird to watch as initiate after initiate begs Gurinder for spiritual help, he explains it's all up to them, and then they beg for help again, to which he closes his eyes and nods his head as if to say "yeah yeah yeah."
Posted by: Tendzin | June 21, 2021 at 11:01 AM
@ Tenzin
>> "I don't say that this is the only way to find God." <<
read it as "I don't SAY that this is the only way to find God."
That doesn't mean that he says there are more than one....het just doesn't want to go THAT FAR as to publicly claim it is the only path.
His uncle was a great master in the use of transmitting information by language and his nephew is indeed a great student .... hahaha
Nothing has changed ....as there is nothing to change. What might point in that direction is just cosmetic, the way of presenting things.
The pope does the same, nor being free to change the teachings, he just presents them in a more palatable way.
And ... in the end it is all up to a person whether he is able to accept the tale of life as presented and practice it ..... trying to find out if that teaching and teacher are true, is a waste of time.
The same Holds for the believe in God ... believing has only an impact on one's way of life as has the content of what one believes.
If one cannot believe a given path and practice it with pleasure and still practicing it is like sending a kid to a school without talent and will to study.
People should first search their own heart as to what it is that it longs.
If there is a god he doesn't care ... he doesn't need anything from you.
What yo believe as on;y meaning for you and you alone as it gives a goal and shapes to life
Posted by: um | June 21, 2021 at 11:19 AM
@Um
">> "I don't say that this is the only way to find God." << read it as "I don't SAY that this is the only way to find God." That doesn't mean that he says there are more than one....het just doesn't want to go THAT FAR as to publicly claim it is the only path."
Actually, I recently (perhaps 3 weeks ago on the Q&A sessions) heard Gurinder explicitly say there is more than one path to God, and that Sant Mat isn't the only way to God. He was rather emphatic about it, noting that ardency of devotion is what really matters.. That's something I never heard from Charan, who constantly repeated that the only way to God was through sant mat meditation.
Gurinder also noted that sant mat's focus on the shabd was an advantage for God seekers, and not absolutely necessary in the spiritual path. Again, this is something that I don't believe Charan ever said, as it's been a core tenet of sant mat that following the inner sounds is the only path to God.
I used to think the difference between Gurinder and Charan's views on Sant mat was one of emphasis, but I don't believe that anymore. Frankly I don't know what Gurinder believes. He's something like the Pope Francis of the sant mat world, a leader who constantly says confusing things that contradict established teachings.
Sometimes contradiction is a good thing as it makes people think, and reconsider their cherished concepts. But too much contradiction leads people to wonder if their leader knows what he's doing.
Posted by: Tendzin | June 21, 2021 at 07:57 PM
@ Tendzin
>>> ..... a leader who constantly says confusing things ........> But too much contradiction leads people to wonder if their leader knows what he's doing. <<
If there is anything you can learn from them is .... "Do NOT follow the leader, leader"
People spent their time analyzing the teachings and their teacher. It is a waste of time; time better used to practice ... IF ... they are inclined to follow that path.
THEY, came to the door with THEIR questions, demands, needs etc etc They were not forced or asked to come. Once on the path they are offered an explanation as to why they had these needs and demands that motivated them,; and explanation that is given to HELP, it is not an must to agree upon, like many other things offered.
Again, .... they can not change the teachings as these teachings are not theirs. They can only change the presentation of them and that is what they do and have done. If you carefully study the sayings of the previous teachers on that path you will find an shift in focus starting from the founder to the teacher of today ... more or less like turning an sleeve of an jacket inside out. Especially how they speak about them selves related to the divine and their relation with the seekers.
When the answer Q&A the do NOT speak "ex cathedra" as when they are giving public teachings, they are addressing a given person with a given question. If you put yourself in his position while listening you will intuitively understand why he does given answers to this or that person. These things are not to be generalized like the letters they write to seekers and among themselves.
The change of focus is imo related to the understanding of those who ask questions. First of all there is an immense difference between people from the east and the west in approaching and understanding religious matters. not to forget the position religion has in the social and cultural domain in different parts of the world.
Those born in a particular religion will psychological deal with the teachings of sant mat or any other path, in that way. So there are Christian Satsangi's in all the many forms of Christianity there are, Calvinists, Roman Catholics etc etc there is no end to it.
Finally .... what is the task of a teacher? He is their to help understand the seeker himself, his own motivations, thoughts, concepts etc. as long as they can be helpfull and detrimental to the practice. In the end the seeker has to find the answers to his own questions of life and what he wants do do with it. The only real thing they say and is said on every other path is .... that there is also an inner world to be witnessed .... an invitation to have a look there. If what is asked, said, discussed is no longer an help in practice it becomes an obstacle.
And as far as the shabd is related, The consciousness needs an carrier if it is not unconscious or in deep sleep. Outside the mind is the carrier and inside light and sound and both can take different forms at different times for different people. but what really matters in the beginning is what they call devotion. But to what are people devoted? What brought them to the door of this or that path ....??? THAT is the question. I dear to say that most people I have met were not interested in the divine at all, nothing at all. At the root of their interests were always the desire to solve their worldly problems .... here the lamentations at the Q&A sessions.
Finally the path they promote and understand, the position of the different players in the game differs from seeker to seeker but the most between the teacher and the student in regard to the question as to who is the doer.
I came to understand all these things after I woke up in the theater of life and lost the connection with the path as one that falls out of the movie he was looking at.
The only place where humans can grasp the essence of phenomena, any phenomena, is inside himself. First he has to grasp his own essence, If done so he can grasp the essence of all the others outside and in the end can realize that they are all the same.
Just drinking coffee will make one understand these simple things. Lofty discussions and thinking tends to cover things up. in empty concepts; concepts that are not based upon experience..... that is how it is, I am not the inventor ... hahaha
It is like school ... most of the people have to overcome their personal resistance to the object of their schooling. Few come to school for no other reason than schooling itself. others come for motives related to parents, society, future jobs and income etc etc etc.
Hahaha ... it is all psychology and they are in away psychotherapists helping to live your own life as nobody else can do it for one.
No true spiritual, mystical path ever seen the face of this world has helped people to solve the problems they face with this world, be they intellectual, emotional, relational, social or cultural...... if that is what one wants join this or that religion, or one of the many other self help strategies that are developed., The offered possibilities are like a supermarket.
Every time I write these things I also have the feeling I should refrain from it as it is completely meaningless and useless and mostly I delete it for that reason and have coffee
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 01:48 AM
@Um
I disagree with what you wrote, and that's because you're conflating your own ideas about sant mat with the actual teachings of this religion. Sant mat, the RSSB version is totally based on the concept of following the guru. Sar Bachan says it, and all the Beas gurus up to Charan said it. Following the guru as God is such a core part of sant mat that it defines this religion.
Sant mat is also based on a precise theology and practice to realize God. Moreover, since Sar Bachan, sant mat is built on the concept that there is no other way to realize God than through initiation from and devotion to a perfect master. It's also based on the absolute necessity of contact with the sound current.
Gurinder is now essentially denying all this. It's not a change in emphasis, it's a radical departure from sant mat's essential teachings. Whether this is a good or bad thing is for anyone to judge, but it can't be denied that it's a departure from the core teachings of Gurinder's predecessors.
"If there is anything you can learn from them is .... "Do NOT follow the leader, leader""
Gurinder has never said that, nor has Charan or any other Beas guru.
"THEY, came to the door with THEIR questions, demands, needs etc etc They were not forced or asked to come."
Actually, these satsangis are invited to come by the person who claims to be a Godman. They are invited to ask questions of the guru, who told them that they had to take lifelong vows to sant mat (or as Sawan and Jagat called it, "Guru Mat"), and to look upon the guru as God himself, and follow the path because there is no other path than doing sant mat meditation for 2.5 hours a day in hopes of liberation from chaurasi.
I think you're completely missing the point of what I wrote, and are arguing for some kind of sant mat 3.0. If that works for you or other people that's great, but however you or others have succeeded in making mystical sense out of RSSB it doesn't really touch upon the issues that I raised.
Posted by: Tendzin | June 22, 2021 at 09:45 AM
@ Tendzin
>>I disagree with what you wrote, and that's because you're conflating your own ideas about sant mat with the actual teachings of this religion.>I think you're completely missing the point of what I wrote, and are arguing for some kind of sant mat 3.0. If that works for you or other people that's great, but however you or others have succeeded in making mystical sense out of RSSB it doesn't really touch upon the issues that I raised.<<
Have you considered the possibility that YOU are missing my point?
Let me put it clearly here. The fundamental teachings of this path, cannot be change by anybody, not even those that are seen as guru's ... but they certainly can be described in different ways, in different times by different personalities. Charan mentioned this many a times.
People are just to much interested in outward pomp instead of focusing on their own life, their own practice, the quality of their own motivations and efforts.
If there is no devotion, no solid faith ... nothing will be possible
Even in psychotherapy it is said that the therapy will not work when there is not a therapeutical relation between the two.
If it is not there it is not there
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 10:20 AM
"People spent their time analyzing the teachings and their teacher. It is a waste of time; time better used to practice ... IF ... they are inclined to follow that path."
-----------------------
um, I'd say that the point of analyzing the teachings and the teacher is never a waste of time. It is of immeasurable value precisely to formulate whether one should follow that path, or for that matter any path. It is of immeasurable value in order to reasonably and rationally and therefore optimally inform one's inclination to follow the path (or not).
True, having decided to follow the path, when it comes to actually applying yourself to the practice, then analysis is no longer useful, and in fact can end up becoming a distraction that keeps you from applying yourself fully. To that extent, sure, it makes sense to not analyze while you're applying yourself to your practice.
But this does not mean that you stop the process of analysis. Even after having established your "inclination" to follow a path, even then, the analysis, the evaluation of the path, it is an ongoing thing. Indeed it is imperative, it is essential, that this process never ever stops. So that every new piece of evidence, whether objective or subjective, is clearly accounted for, always.
But yes, during the time that you're attending to your practice, for that duration your analytical mind can be a hindrance, and therefore must be kept in check for that duration. But that caution is probably moot, because with most meditative techniques, absorption into meditation itself results in an end, for that duration, of the "monkey mind".
But again, that does not mean that once you're done with meditating, you should not evaluate the latest shenanigans of the teacher who is the inspiration behind your meditation.
There is no contradiction between analyzing when analysis is called for, and ceasing that analysis when applying yourself fully to the technique.
(And, when you think of it, this applies equally not just to things spiritual and meditative, but to any and every endeavor. Like playing music. Like working out. Like working on some research project. Like composing a particularly involved report. Most things that take effort and absorption, not just meditation.)
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 22, 2021 at 10:30 AM
@ Tendzin e.a.
Again more than half of what I wrote disappeared on posting.
In older days I would attribute it to "divine intervention" but these days I just accept it as it is and feel sorry for the work i did.
Tendzin, when I woke up in the cinema of life years ago, I lost contact with what I was so interested in ... the movie I was seeing , a movie that brought so much wealth into my life. Whatever I write has nothing to do with the content of that movie.
Being freed of all so called spiritual interests, it makes it all the more easy to look upon them as a human experience
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 10:43 AM
@A>R>
Oh AR, I have to fight the impulse to bring out some correspondence I had with the late CS ... in one of his length letters he addressed the very points you wrote about in the first 2 alineas.
Let me not give in and suggest you listen to a couple of tapes by him ... you will hear him say time and again ...do not analyse!!
WHY did he stress that point again and again for so many years???
Based upon what you wrote, you must understand what the effect of analysing is on the mind, not only during the practice and how the mental state of the mind is affecting the practice.
In all traditions they do whatever they can to make the distractions minimal ... just think of the second sutra of Patanjali and how that relates to analyzing.
But as I wrote before, this is your path [ the way you ;live] ... walk it to the end.
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 10:58 AM
@ A.R .... e.a
If in a marriage the days come and one wakes up realizing that the attraction for the partner has gone, than it is time to leave and accept that simple fact of life,
There is no need to justify or rationalise that realisation by finding fault with the partner especially if that partner brought so much happiness before.
It is also time to search one's heart and find maybe there has never been that true loive in the first place.
It is that simple and it holds for all relations we have that involve the heart. There is no way to analyze oneself in or out these relations
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 11:08 AM
um, I don't know what Charan Singh had to say about this, but as far as "Yoga chitta vritti nirodh", that cessation of the monkey mind that is the ultimate aim of Yoga, is the culmination of the process of absorption into the particular meditation technique one follows.
Simply refraining from exerting one's mental faculties (for instance, by refraining from analyzing one's teacher or one's path) would merely mimic, would merely parody that state of thoughtlessness, and achieve nothing at all. What that would amount to is merely a cargo-cult imitation of the chitta-vritti-nirodh state.
Isn't it?
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 22, 2021 at 11:52 AM
@ AR
NO !
Have a look at in the life of the mystics .. what do they do?
They do their utmost best to eliminate as much physical and mental distraction as they can. Withdraw in the mountain caves, the dessert, forest retreats and make their home there.
They are the experts but the amateurs, do you think they can do without it?
Since I woke up I am more free to think what I want and that is what I do. Following a path, any serious path I have heard of is not a thing one can add to ones life as the next pleasant activity, one of the many things one does.
What makes people believe they can master an practice that others invested their whole life in 24 hours a day ... practising a path is like a calling, a calling that brings people behind the walls of a monastery.
Again, it is your fate to walk the path of analysis to the end.
Posted by: Um | June 22, 2021 at 12:11 PM
"Following a path, any serious path I have heard of is not a thing one can add to ones life as the next pleasant activity, one of the many things one does.
What makes people believe they can master an practice that others invested their whole life in 24 hours a day ... practising a path is like a calling, a calling that brings people behind the walls of a monastery."
----------
Can't argue with that, really.
That single-mindedness that acclaimed mystics applied to their calling, you are right, it does seem arrogant to claim that we amateurs will somehow achieve something similar by simply including meditation into our daily to-do list. I agree, to claim that seems like hubris.
.
You are right, it could be that that one-pointed single-mindedness might mean the difference between bulls-eye and no-cigar.
.
But. While the above is (probably) true, nevertheless, I don't see that the part-time amateur dabbler who refrains from using his mental faculties is any closer to reaching that goal merely by virtue of not exercising his mental faculties. Like I was saying, that's not so much an imitation of christ as merely a parody.
It's like this. The mystic --- always assuming for the present that all of this is fact, that goes without saying --- the mystic, as a result of his one-pointed focus, achieves a state of thoughtlessness. In that state, he does not cogitate over issues, does not analyze. But that is not to say that humble folks like you and I will somehow approach that state simply by imitating the external manifestations of the mystic's (alleged) inner state, for instance by refraining from giving rein to our mental faculties.
.
In short : I agree with what you have to say about single-pointed focus. But I don't see that that has anything to do with the question we were discussing, namely whether it is useful to analyze one's teacher (e.g., GSD, when speaking of RSSB initiates).
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 22, 2021 at 12:30 PM
@ AR
>> In short : I agree with what you have to say about single-pointed focus. But I don't see that that has anything to do with the question we were discussing, namely whether it is useful to analyze one's teacher (e.g., GSD, when speaking of RSSB initiates).<<
Well if you consider it useful, by any means go for it.
Posted by: Um | June 22, 2021 at 12:57 PM
Ditto, um. I didn't mean to criticize your particular path. We each have the right to follow where our heart leads us.
Just trying to ...well, analyze (insert smile emoji!) the POV you'd put forward, impersonally, that's all.
Peace!
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 22, 2021 at 01:10 PM
@AR
Lately I posted a link to a PDF containing the essays of W. James.
If you have the time read it ... he approaches the mystical experiences from a psychological point of view, it is worth the time.
Do not worry ... how can an analysis be an critique in the hands of an objective, scientific researcher?
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 01:21 PM
No, I haven't read it yet. But I will.
I'm sorry, but I don't remember which thread you'd posted it in. I just checked Open Thread 38, the one where we were discussing Osho Robbins's Oneness, but going CNTRL-F with "James" on the three pages of that thread didn't bring anything up.
Would you post that link here one more time?
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 22, 2021 at 01:33 PM
@ AR
https://csrs.nd.edu/assets/59930/williams_1902.pdf
It is older English, long sentences as was usual in those days etc.
There are newer versions I suppose.
I will certainly address some of the issues that have your interest and also the path you are walking.
Posted by: um | June 22, 2021 at 01:51 PM
Downloaded, and saved. I'll check it out.
Cheers.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 22, 2021 at 01:55 PM
Just started on the pdf, um.
It's pretty much huge, fully book-size, and will take time. Besides, it's kind of dated, and will necessarily not include the key neruobiological discoveries made in the 100+ years since William James's time.
Nevertheless, the subject matter, as well as the treatment, both are fascinating, what I've read so far. I think I'm going to enjoy sinking my teeth into this.
Thanks much for the reference!
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 23, 2021 at 12:02 AM
@ AR
Reading the book you will come to understand that he wanted to stay away from a mere biological point of view and direct the attention to the psychological understanding of these experiences.
I guess you will enjoy it ....long sentences asks for SLOW reading and rereading and much coffee ... success
Posted by: um | June 23, 2021 at 12:33 AM
Tendzin, you said:
Again, all we really know is that both Charan and Gurinder dabbled in business "deals." All this stuff about Gurinder being guilty of fraud and beholden to political parties is speculation.
There is no speculation here. Being involved in a business deal is not a crime.
Being involved in the biggest corporate fraud in India, is.
His sons became billionaires virtually overnight thanks to Malvinder and Shivinder. They jointly defrauded various companies. They only got caught by chance because of their assets being frozen. Gurinder refused to help at that crucial time, which is why they lost control of the company they were defrauding. All this is well known. Malvinder’s letter to Gurinder is also available. He begged him to help.
Malvinder was never a disciple of Gurunder.
Posted by: The Truth | June 23, 2021 at 03:06 AM
@ The truth
Whatever the facts are, irrespective of how they are seen and presented, each and every person has to attach his own meaning to it.
The facts will not effect him but his own meaning does.
The way he will do it is based upon his own mental conditioning and has nothing to do with the facts ... he uses the facts to his own "advantage"
And that is alright ..... but facts do not tell anything about the persons that are related to these facts.
Theft, does not tell you anything about a thief .... nothing at all.
So to base one's conclusions about a person based upon his actions is nothing but projection.
There are evil people but not every person that commits an evil deed is evil.
Used to the romanticized memories of his uncle, many cannot digest the fact that what he does does not fit THEIR expectations .... and teachers are there to teach and not to fit the expectations of the students.
People better be honest with themselves. If one cannot swallow a person due to his behaviour, it is all right to go elsewhere but one better not use it as an [lame] excuse for one's own decisions.
Ones appreciation for this or that person tells only a tale about the person that ons those appreciations and nothing, nothing at all about that other person.
If you no longer want to frequent the shop of the baker that is found guilty of theft, you are free to buy your loafs elsewhere but you are not free to make assessments about his bread based upon the fact that he stole.
That would not be TRUTH - FULL
Posted by: um | June 23, 2021 at 04:17 AM
A good teacher teaches his students so that they eventually won’t need him.
In Sant Mat there’s an obsession with the teacher/guru that is truly ungodly. The guru is not God. Even Jesus never claimed to be God… despite what some people think. A completely enlightened being cannot live inside a human form.
Teachers are necessary for most for a certain period of time. So called “Godmen” are absolutely unnecessary—they’re a hindrance.
It’s not the guru that takes you home—it’s the Spirit that leads you on your inner journey.
The person that suffers the most from these so-called GIHFs are the gurus themselves.
Posted by: Sonia | June 23, 2021 at 06:20 AM
@ Sonia
If Kabir would have lived somewhere in Europe or the Americas, his teachings and practice would have been outwardly completely different.
All religions, all spiritual path and all forms of Buddhism bear the stamp of a time, place, climate and culture.
A while ago the Dalai Lama stated something to the extent that one could not uproot Tibetan Buddhism from Tibet and without Tibet it could not have a future.
In this globalist world there is no longer place for "regional" forms of religion and spiritual practice. If they cannot free themselves from it they are doomed to disappear.
The appreciation of Indians and particular those of the North is completly different from people in other parts of the world certainly those of the protestant regions.
Dad would say it is all a matter of the sun.
Posted by: um | June 23, 2021 at 07:12 AM
"Even Jesus never claimed to be God"
-------
Actually, Sonia, the RCC does hold that Jesus is actually God. He's part of the Trinity, and all three aspects of the Trinity are actually and literally God.
Sure, that sounds nonsensical. I mean, he's God himself, and at the same time he's God's son? How come, right? That sounds nonsensical, because that belief is itself nonsensical, from start to finish. But the faithful would have us believe that they speak of a realm beyond the reach of rationality and therefore beyond reach of our puny intellects. And in those terms, if you grant them that dodgy premise, then I suppose it does make sense.
What Jesus himself said is a matter of random people writing random things down at different times. I don't know how much weight we can put on what we read in the Bible, in terms of actual historicity.
But I did want to point out that the largest faith in the world, which would be the RCC denomination, does hold Christ to be, quite literally, God.
Posted by: Appreciative Reader | June 23, 2021 at 07:38 AM
Look at the facts, gurinder Singh dhillon is a perfect liar in every way. He happily judges others, and yet he is a complete contradiction to his own teaching. He is blatantly making it all up as he goes along. Santmat 1 was all fantasy/ fairy tale and santmat 2 takes out the story and is left empty and anything goes as long as you worship GSD the clown as a god and keep repeating those demonic names. RSSB is the biggest trap for stupid fools who cant be asked to do 10 mins of Google research.
Posted by: Uchit | June 24, 2021 at 03:54 PM
um,
you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.
you can change the facts by denying them or manipulating them to fit in with your opinion, however that is delusion, not truth.
If someone is caught stealing - they are a thief - that is a fact. Of course they may have their own opinion about that - but that is a justification,
everyone has a justification, a way in which they claim that is was okay for them - but that is not the truth.
yes, most people do justify and they do ignore the facts - but that does not make it the truth - it just makes it their own version.
Posted by: The Truth | June 24, 2021 at 11:06 PM
@ The truth
What I wrote was neither about, the theft, nor about the thief but about how people react when they are informed about the theft.
Please do read it again
Posted by: um | June 25, 2021 at 01:47 AM
@ Uchit
We all know the facts you repeatedly post here and all of us are free how to deal with these facts, it is their prerogative to react as they wish.
If a person stands trial in the pillory at the market place, all inhabitants are free to decide whether they want to leave their house , go to the market place and do there as they deem fit.
It is all their free choice
Some go there to jell and shout and throw rotten fruit at the excused because they love to do so; it gives the a "good" feeling and they are proud on their contribution to justice.
Not all leave their house.
Not all go to the market on leaving their house.
Not all jell and shout and throw the rotten fruits they brought with them to throw.
Posted by: um | June 25, 2021 at 02:15 AM