How the RSSB guru was involved with Ranbaxy

If you want to know the truth about Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (an Indian religious organization), a great place to look is my compendium of comments left on this blog by "Tara" between 2010 and 2014. 

In 2018 I compiled the 27,000 words worth of comments into a post, "Devastating criticism of Gurinder Singh Dhillon by a RSSB insider."

The comments, though not entirely negative in regard to Dhillon, paint a different picture of the guru than devotees see when he sits on a stage and talks about spiritual subjects.

In a recent comment on this blog, someone raised the question of who orchestrated the sale of Ranbaxy, a pharmaceutical company controlled at the time by Malvinder Singh, a relative of the RSSB guru. 

I shared one of the comments by "Tara" that said it was Dhillon who advised on the sale. That got me to thinking it would be interesting to see what other mentions of Ranbaxy were in other comments by Tara.

I've shared all of those mentions below. They make for interesting reading, especially if the reader is concerned about how a guru supposedly focused on God-realization became so enmeshed in gigantic business deals and making he and his family hugely rich to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Enjoy... the comments are in reverse chronological order, so the most recent ones by "Tara" appear first.

Catherine, a few corrections : Parminder Singh died in Delhi in 1999 following a prolonged battle with cancer. His sons, Shivinder Mohan Singh and Malvinder Mohan Singh ( now known as the Singh Brothers ) succeeded him. Ranbaxy was always a professionally managed company in the days of Dr. Singh, but following his passing, many differences between the board and the promoters crept in.

 

Gurinder is said to have played his part. Malvinder Singh sought to muscle in after an eruption of disagreements with the professional CEO — D.S Brar, one of the oldest employees of Ranbaxy who was instrumental along with Dr. Singh in shaping the vision for Ranbaxy. Brar resigned in 2004 and it was all downhill for Ranbaxy from there. Malvinder Singh re-shuffled the board and took control. By the end of it — price wars, reduced profitability, debt and expiring patents got the better of Ranbaxy.

 

In mid 2008, the Singh Brothers decided to sell the family's 64% stake to Daiichi Sankyo in a deal that was too overwhelmingly overvalued to decline. In just months after their takeover, the Japanese realized that they were stung in the backside, and Malvinder Singh was politely told to leave. Read : http://business.rediff.com/column/2009/jun/05/malvinder-singhs-ranbaxy-report-card.htm

 

Please note that there was always some confusion about Dr. Singh's name : Parminder or Parvinder, you'll find half the articles on one name and the other half on the other. A short biography of Dr. Singh can be found here... Read : http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/personalities/parvinder.html Gurinder affair with the Singh Brother's had already begun in 2006 with the inception of Religare, the financial services company that he mentored.

 

The sale of Ranbaxy gave Religare the shot of capital that it needed. Whatever transpired between them, it is quite clear that Gurinder's wealth was created by the opportunity that he found or was given to him — by the Singh Brothers. But, it is also important to note that Gurinder may have made a number of important and correct decisions for the Singh Brothers after Dr. Singh's demise.

 

Of course, selling the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs is debatable, but with the valuation that Ranbaxy got, it would have taken an extremely conservative and competent man to say no and walk the company back to a second term of success. But then again, Gurinder's role as the family's Guru and business advisor, coupled with his own personal business agenda, was a bit too entwined to do any differently.

 

IMO, I think RSSB should seriously consider updating Gurinder's wikipedia information to include Religare. Unless of course, like everything else, he wants to keep 'em guessing !

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Okay... Charan was a different man. He was not interested in Ranbaxy and the politics, and often told Parminder to manage his professional journey outside Beas. He was clear about his role as the head of RSSB and did not mix that with a side-business. His own son is working for Fortis today. Had Charan taken advantage of his proximity to Parminder, his sons would have been shareholders, three decades ago !

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Nietzsche. Great ! You've made the effort to backtrack into Gurinder's current financial status and what you've stated sums up the facts very well. I'm relieved that what I've been harping about on the COTC ( that makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist in the process ) has some validation from an independent fellow blogger... :)

 

My additional thoughts are : Gurinder ordered the Ranbaxy sell-out, and as a faith policy, Shivinder and Malvinder do not over-rule anything HE decides. The final " go ahead boys " was given by Gurinder. I know this because the celebratory cheers resounded with a boisterous " Baba-ji does not make any mistakes ! " that came from none other than Sunil Godhwani, Baba-ji's right-hand man.

 

Before the news hit the press, everyone knew that a chunk of that booty would be pumped into Religare. Of course, Ranbaxy's health was generously inflated, but the sell-out was the best possible move from a financial standpoint — considering that the Singh Brothers made quite a mess of the succession when they inherited the company, which subsequently reflected in the company's performance over the years.

 

There was a joke in the corporates circles here that Parminder Singh was in a big shock in heaven when he learnt that Gurinder had advised his sons to sell Ranbaxy. His reaction was : " What ? Who the f*** is he ? " ( LOL ) This entire Religare affair that Gurinder's having with the Singh Brothers is in direct conflict with his role as a Guru, whether he's teaching 1.0 or 3.0. His insatiable appetite for wealth is sick, specially when there is no charitable initiative for the poorer sections of the Sangat that make up for ninety-five percent of his following.

 

IMO, Gurinder wants them to remain hungry and foolish otherwise they will not be interested in the salvation promise, which is why I think that Sant Mat 3.0 will never be introduced to the langar. You are absolutely right about the Mc-Donald's style of operations at Fortis. Also, the services they provide are the Micky-D's equivalent of fries and nuggets. It is all about the money, with little regard for ethical practice and human life.

 

But, it is interesting to note that post Ranbaxy, none of the Singh Brothers' businesses have been particularly profitable. It is too early to call, but Fortis is struggling. And, going forward, the competition will intensify. Religare is hemorrhaging under the acumen-devoid leadership of Sunil Godhwani and is showing no signs of recovering. Religare continually gets mini bail-outs from the huge cash reserves that the Singh Brothers are currently sitting on, but the well could dry-up in less than a decade if their current run continues.

 

It is also possible that Gurinder could make some bad ( not-so-GIHF ) decisions. Our comments here are forming a valuable archive for those who will seek to find out more, specially after the radical shift in the Sant Mat teachings. I like the Japanese quote, it applies to all of us.

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Nietzsche. No ! No ! Lets get this straight. Analjit Singh has not become rich on the backs of his nephews — the Singh Brothers. He was Bhai Mohan Singh's youngest son and Parminder Singh's youngest brother. Following a family division in 1989, the pharma business ( Ranbaxy ) went to his older brother ( Parminder ) and he got the smaller Max India. Has since built it into $1 billion ( sales ) Max Group with interests in healthcare, insurance, clinical research and packaging.

 

Currently, his healthcare business ( Max Hospitals ) is the biggest competitor of Fortis Healthcare, which is the healthcare business of the Singh Brothers. They are business rivals and the two families have never had any commercial alliance with each other after they parted ways in the Charan Singh days. Of course, they have often dragged each other to court over petty disputes ( a small property or some section of Bhai Mohan Singh's will ) but it was Analjit who got the raw deal when his father preferentially gave Ranbaxy to his oldest son.

 

For more on Analjit, this article sums it up well : http://business.in.com/article/boardroom/analjit-singhs-futureproof-strategy/24072/1 Gurinder's two sons, Gurpreet Singh Dhillon and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon can be found on the Indian Billionaires Club on the website here : http://www.indiastudychannel.com/resources/87721-Billionaire-Club-Ranking.aspx

 

Okay friend, stop looking for Gurinder on that list ! He's way smarter than that. The legitimate money is in his sons' names who live in London. It is highly likely that the larger ill-legit amounts are off-shored safely in the private banks of Switzerland and Liechtenstein.

 

His sons lead a rather discreet life in London. Most of their friends do not even know who their father is ! I can't find the latest rankings where they are at 355 / 356, but this rating ranks them at 360 / 361 respectively. ( I'll tell someone to search it out and I'll post it later ! )

 

Another correction — Ranbaxy was not sold last year, it was in the June of 2008. Immediately after that ( in July ) the Singh Brothers formally changed the name of Fortis Financial Ltd. to Religare Enterprises Ltd. The name " Religare " was chosen / approved by Gurinder. ( The etymology of the word « religion » in latin : Religare, means to bind. )

 

What else ? Hmmm... Yeah, there is a ton of stuff on Ranbaxy's dubious business practices. They were quite infamous for their animal testing methods, that is fine, but the promoters followed a rigid spiritual path that did not permit mayo. Oops ! Gurinder is the only " relative " who is a business partner and has made big money with the Singh Brothers. The rest of them are high paid employees, like Charan's son Cuckoo who works for Fortis Hospitals.
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Familial Ties / Religare: Gurinder is Charan's nephew (his sister's son) and back in the day, Charan had nothing to do with Dr. Parminder Singh's (his son-in-law) fortunes. Nimmie (Charan's daughter) had a rather turbulent relationship with her husband (Dr. Parminder Singh) and Charan was often involved in resolving their marital issues. Towards the end Nimmie and Parminder were living separately.

In Charan's guru-days, Gurinder was just another member of the extended family. The Grewal's (Charan's family) and the Dhillon's (Gurinder's family) were not very close, nor were Gurinder and Nimmie (cousins). But, Charan was always very fond of Gurinder, who was (at that time) a simple man from a modest financial background, dedicated to his Guru Uncle.

Gurinder was working at the Hyatt Regency, New Delhi (as an Assistant Food & Beverage Manager there) and his career wasn't exactly going places. It was Charan who lined up a job for him with the Bilani's in Spain and Gurinder would scour China / HK and other Asian countries for watch parts. From a job in a hotel to a billionaire businessman? Like they say, you've come a long way baby... :)

Dr. Parminder Singh was an industry captain and a visionary exemplar. A lot changed after his demise in 1999. His sons (Malvinder and Shivinder) were very young and inexperienced at the time, and Ranbaxy was being run by a group of professionals headed by D.S Brar (then MD & CEO, a non-family member) who was instrumental (along with Dr. Singh) in transforming Ranbaxy from a small Indian pharmaceutical company into a research-based global pharmaceutical major.

The disagreements over Ranbaxy's international expansion strategy between Brar and the family surfaced in 2002 and Brar exited before the end of his term, leaving what happened behind the boardroom doors a mystery. An analyst, commenting on the Ranbaxy succession planning issue, said - "The question, however, uppermost in most people's mind is: (that) does the decision reflect a tussle between the promoter and professional management in which the promoter eventually had his way." Initially,

Gurinder was just playing an advisory role to the Singh Brothers. Soon, that "advisory role" turned into a full-time consultancy of sorts and it was soon heard that Malvinder & Shivinder "don't make a move" without HIS advise.

That "HIS" was Gurinder - a backstage operator in Ranbaxy's succession that led to Malvinder quickly taking up the post of MD & CEO in what was once a professionally run company. In the months that followed, Gurinder and the Singh Brothers became inseparable when it came to taking business decisions. Then in December 2005, Gurinder announced to his family and close friends that he will not be giving business advise to any one after the turn of the year!

 

Who knows, maybe the Singh brother's thought of "including" him in some way and it was around that time Fortis was launched as a financial services company, which was then re-named Religare... (I can bet this name was Gurinder's pick, the definition of Religare is mentioned somewhere on the RSSB website in an essay with reference to religion and spirituality.)

 

Gurinder is very shrewd, it would take a very smart person to do what he is doing. Keeping everyone's faith while making a great deal of money is not something that all of us can pull off. Of course, he has an added advantage of playing "God" so he gets away unquestioned and unscrutinized. I doubt if Dr. Parminder Singh would have approved of any of this.

 

Charan Singh (Parminder's father-in-law) was not his business advisor! It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy and RSSB were separate entities during Charan's tenure - one was into the pharma business while the other was into the God business... In fact, Charan had his hands full with the politics within the Dera and wholly discouraged any kind of business association with himself or RSSB trust.

If you take a look into the Ranbaxy archives, there is no trace of Gurinder or any of his immediate family members being associated to Ranbaxy or to Dr. Parminder Singh and Nimmie Singh in any way - through employment, through shareholding, through inheritance.

The fact that one of Charan's two sons is working in Fortis today (you can confirm this on the Fortis website, his name is Jasbir Grewal aka Cuckoo) and has no shareholding in either Religare or Fortis clearly shows that Charan did not take advantage of his familial relationships, else shouldn't his son be richer than his nephew ( Gurinder ) today? I would also like to add here that Gurinder and his sons are the only family members who are shareholders in the Singh brothers' businesses. It is not like there is a consortium of familial relations managing these companies.

Relatives are employed, but share-holding has been reserved only for the Guru and his sons. I can tell you for certain that no uncle or aunt of Gurinder had gifted him the initial capital (millions of dollars) to invest in Religare. Gurinder comes from a humble past, and for those who think that he has hectares "farmland" it may be good to know a fact - Gurinder and his immediate family are not agricultural industrialists of Punjab. A few acres of wheat and mustard produce cannot buy pre-issued shares in a global financial services company!

If you read the Religare prospectus, the shares were transferred to his sons at a pre-issue price of INR 10 before the IPO was launched. Like I said in my earlier comment, I see no reason for the Singh Brothers to part with the shareholding if there wasn't something in it for them.

 

That is why, IMO, the RSSB trust-funds cross-holdings with Religare is not such a smokin' conspiracy theory after all. I do not think that Gurinder and his family are directly siphoning out money from the RSSB trust. However, there is an institution in place (Religare) which manages the RSSB trust-funds, and in turn helps the Guru and his family profiteer from it. It is a legal v/s moral issue and if you look at this from a pure " Sant Mat " perspective, all of it looks terribly wrong!

This is not your average Wall Street banker we're discussing, this is GIHF - the Perfect Living Master, the Param Sant Sat Guru of Kalyug. The plethora of RS teachings now looks like a bigger pile of BS ! What ever happened to " Honest Living " I wonder... Gurinder's younger son - Gurkirat Singh Dhillon is the youngest billionaire on the Indian Billionaires List. The children of other billionaires are the inheritors of business legacies or are first-generation entrepreneurs - their success stories are a Google search away.

 

Gurinder's older son lives in a posh apartment in Mayfair, London. Has he earned it, or is it a by-product of having a Guru-dad ? My concern is for the poor villager who takes out his INR 10 to put into the RSSB money-box. That INR 10 could also buy him another meal. Something to think about - specially when salvation does not seem to be happening.

 

Well, I don't think we'll find Gurinder absconding one day, my guess is that he may head out in an autonomous direction (the signs are already there) and may even renunciate his leadership and Guru-status in the years to come. This may be a long shot, but like all things RSSB - it will be well orchestrated and the Sangat will be satisfied.
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SKat, Please read http://business.in.com/printcontent/932 and that should put the real facts in line. If Ranbaxy was all that cash rich, why did they sell out ? So, they sold the golden goose for ten thousand golden eggs ? Really ? Was it the current trend of intensifying generic competition and increased government regulation that got to them ?

It is common knowledge that Ranbaxy became debt-free after the deal and got $1 billion in cash to pursue inorganic growth opportunities more aggressively. It is also common knowledge that Parminder Singh would have wholly disapproved of Malvinder's business approach. Back in the day, Ranbaxy had one of the renowned R&D departments in the pharmaceutical sector. Many patents on drugs were about to expire industry wide, which would have allowed other pharma companies to innovate and produce products at lower costs.

The Daiichi-Ranbaxy deal was valued at 4.3 times sales and 21 times EBITDA on historical earnings. Malvinder wouldn't have got a better catch than Daiichi. He got the Japanese - hook, line and sinker ! And, the Parkway Hospital in-and-out deal was the only option as a bidding war with Khazanah would have bled them. Nothing wrong with a " good deal " though Corporate India did expect the Singh brothers to resist ! Instead, Malvinder came back with all bags packed and a neat pile of money.

From your comment it seems likely that you probably know that RSSB trust funds were ( and continue to be diverted ) to Religare. Do you see another reason for the Guru's two sons being shareholders ? What was Gurinder's financial status prior to becoming the Guru ? Of course, you don't have to answer this, but I'm sure that if you know the Head of Treasury and Head of Finance at Religare, you know the truth.

 

And, in this case, they more than hint about the Guru's involvement. It is all very risky, and you probably also know that that if this is publicly proved, it may spell disaster for the RSSB cult. By the way ( as tAo well noted ) we at the Church of the Churchless had nothing to do with the near-collapse of the global banking system ! Gurinder is a bigger fraud than all those bankers combined and he hails from our land. Besides, how different are the business practices of Mukesh Ambani, Malvinder Singh and co. in this country for you to be pulling out a fair-play card ?
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( The Singh brothers cannot be considered " family " in this regard as they " got into business " with Gurinder only in 2006, prior to which Gurinder had nothing to do with Ranbaxy and had no business of his own. ) B. There is no road-map to indicate how the Guru and his sons became ( now the largest ) shareholders of a two billion dollar company... ( ?? ) C. Why were shares transferred at a pre-issue price to Gurpreet and Gurkirat only ? Why is Gurpreet nowhere to be seen on the Religare India website ? Why is he tucked away in London ? Why has he never been interviewed ?

Comments

[Neo]

A few questions about Charan Singh

1. What did he do for work?
2. Did he work outside of Beas Dera when he was acting as master?
3. How many overseas centers did he build?

[Huckamahuckaby]

Still trying to pin it on Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the agenda rankles your brain.

It was Malvinder's doing from beginning to end, Malvinder sowed his own oats and came to have to swallow them.

Malvinder almost single handed ran Ranbaxy into the ditch, he got a very handsome hand out with the Daiichi sale, and if it was advised by GSD to sell when the writing was on the wall with FDA clamoring and clamping down on the illegally and crooked produced product under zealous profiteering by Malvinder's shady operating then it was the best way out of the quagmire Malvinder himself had concocted by his own lack of business ethics.

The problem is that Daiichi only got wise to the shenanigans after the sale transpired and then belatedly sought recompense, which they got awarded post transaction, albeit yet unpaid, through the arbitration tribunal in Singapore.
______________________________________

In the middle of 2008, he (Malvinder Mohan Singh) sold Ranbaxy to Daiichi Sankyo of Japan, though the new owner made him CEO for a five-year term. Then, last month, he resigned after a two-hour board meeting at a five-star hotel in New Delhi. This ended the Singh family's long connection with Ranbaxy.

Tongues started to wag immediately after his exit. Why did Malvinder leave even before the first year of his five-year term got over? Various theories began to do the rounds.

One point that was missed out by all was that his exit has probably helped Daiichi Sankyo send out a strong message to people who matter.

Ranbaxy is under the watch of the United States Food & Drug Administration. It has put a ban on the import of medicine produced at Ranbaxy's Paonta Sahib facility in Himachal Pradesh for falsification of data. This is serious and it could take up to two years to get the ban lifted.

The change in management is probably meant to show that Daiichi Sankyo is dead serious about sorting out the row, never mind the Rs 45 crore (Rs 450 million) severance cheque it had to write for Malvinder. The USFDA charges incidentally relate to the time before Malvinder got control of the company.

So, was Malvinder good or bad for Ranbaxy?

For the first two years, he had a great run. In 2005, the year before he became CEO, Ranbaxy had shown a profit after tax of Rs 223 crore (Rs 2.23 billion). It rose to Rs 380 crore (Rs 3.8 billion) in 2006 and Rs 617 crore (Rs 6.17 billion) in 2007.

Things took a turn for the worse in 2008 when the company reported a loss of Rs 1,044 crore (Rs 10.44 billion). Ranbaxy attributed it to mark-to-market losses on the fair value of derivatives. The company took the wrong call on foreign exchange. The recent appreciation of the rupee against the dollar is expected to help matters.

But the losses did stick out. Daiichi Sankyo recently lowered its guidance for the year, thanks to Ranbaxy of which it now owns over 63 per cent.

A point that may get missed here is that Malvinder brought about some basic changes in Ranbaxy's business model. During Brar's time, it was focused on the US which accounted for almost half of worldwide pharmaceutical sales. So Ranbaxy's target was to get half of its sales from the US.

In the last few years, mature markets like the US have turned adverse for generic drug firms like Ranbaxy. Governments there want to cut their healthcare budgets and the axe has first fallen on generic drugs. Germany has even resorted to online auctions for generic medicine to squeeze the last margin out of generic prices.

To deal with this problem, Malvinder did several acquisitions in emerging markets like East Europe and South Africa where margins on generic drugs are better protected. Now, 64 per cent of Ranbaxy's turnover comes from such countries.

The next thing he worked on was alliances with Big Pharma. Instead of working at cross-purposes, multinational pharmaceutical companies and generic drug makers are now coming together to look at fruitful co-existence.

Malvinder expanded considerably the scope of the research and development tie-up with GlaxoSmithKline, forged a new one with Merck and finally made Ranbaxy a part of Daiichi Sankyo.

Malvinder also settled patent challenges out of court and converted them into quantifiable revenue streams.

The most important was Ranbaxy's challenge to Pfizer's cholesterol-lowering drug and the world's largest-selling medicine, Lipitor. There were at least three others. Ranbaxy could get well over a billion dollars from these settlements in the near future. This also plugged the large sums of money Ranbaxy was paying patent attorneys year after year.

One reform that Malvinder couldn't do was that of the company's board of directors. For long, doctors and scientists have been inadequately represented on the Ranbaxy board. The new owner will have to address this problem.

When he was young, Malvinder's summer vacations were spent on pillion with Ranbaxy representatives on their rounds of chemists and doctors. That chapter has now come to an end.

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[manoj]

This was all planned and implemented by Gurinder Dhillions Dirty Dream and the love of the Rupee. How he took advantage and manipulated the brothers with the idea of salvation and enlightenment for in exchange to ripp them apart and robb them blindly whilst playing the Fraudulent Baba card. How shameful and disgusting to tear the Singh brothers family apart for a selfish life ambition that's going to end up in tears for the ghastly little clown of a baba one day. Who willingly went on a pathetic self destructive path and destroyed many lives in the process. Crime never pays GSD which you're about to find out. All in the name of his God satan. Rott in hell you bloody Goat!

[Jackabull]

@huckamahuby , another payed rssb sevadar agent peddling his lies, how comes yourstories are not common news in the indian main stream media,!!!!! One thing is for sure, when gurinder Singh says jump, everyone says how high. Gurinder Singh Dillon is the master mind puppet behind the sale, and profiteering illegally, siphoning over 6000crore over a network of 16 shell companies to hide behind. He thinks he is untouchable and that he is a God. But your days are numbered, karma will catch up to you. Ps I notice GSD is answering questions on YouTube, how about answering the real questions in Delhi high court???

[Readbull]

Looks like Parvinder was right all along about appointing Dr. Brar. His sons weren’t ready for Ranbaxy. But can’t put all the blame on Malav. Malav was encouraged to oust Brar and continued running the company the same way his dad did until he was encouraged to sell. He was a puppet.

[Jackabullary]

This is the age when con men are getting exposed, the truth of what they do when they are not on stage as an actor gets put in the public eye. The question is can you see that this baba is bent and a fraud ? Are you gonna take the brave step and get out if this cult that has given you a false sence of belonging to something that is not right and indeed a complete waste of life. Run away as fast as you can and claim.your freedom, as RSSB institution and the leader, GSD, are rotten to the core. GSD is the devil in disguise, how else can they get innocent gullible souls into there web of lies. Don't fall for the love love love blind mans trap

[La Madrugada]

It was Charan who lined up a job for him with the Bilani's in Spain and Gurinder would scour China / HK and other Asian countries for watch parts. From a job in a hotel to a billionaire businessman? Like they say, you've come a long way baby... :)

Gurinder worked for the Balani's in Málaga, the former spanish RSSB-rep. Hiro Balani was his boss.

[Dragon slayer]

What a promotion indeed, a billionaire baba with the title of god in human form. All Gurinder had to do was sign a contract and pretend to be a perfect living master on stage for a few hours. The rewards are money, fame, private jets, security and be worshipped as a god. The devil is a perfect liar and trickster to fool innocent souls.

[Um]

@ dragon slayer

Humans are only living well in a group, community, herd if you like.
It offers the so needed protection to survive as an individual.
That protection is offered and asked for.

Religions, do it, the government does it and even the criminal organizations do it.

The protection can be given, forced upon etc.

If people can find a better solution for what they desire, seek, long for ... they go elsewere.

In Asia people seem to live more in communities as is done in the west and they are often also stronger.

The way In guruś are looked upon and treated is unprecedented in the west. That, according my opinion, is the reason why you still see large numbers flocking around guruś and the number of people in the west is declining. It was great fun for a couple of years but now the Beatles have gone, the guruś, the love for the oriental, the Indian music has also gone .... Internet offers more pleasures to the western mind than books, guruś etc can offer.

And .... remember what happened with the actor that played the role of Arjuna in a drama. People flocked before his door asking for his blessing .... whatever he said to convince them that he was just an actor, was of no avail to those before his door. Would you blame that actor for the behaviour of the people before his door??

People seek help, love, compassion etc etc etc ......OUTSIDE themselves .... as long as they believe it to be there, they will run after everybody, that presents himself ...OR ... IS PRESENTED ... as being able to offer it.

Even you do it my friend.

[manoj]

@Um

Batting for Satan is going to cost you dearly in the end.
Why pay it with your precious soul, which if you knew is absolute god.
For what will you have gained in backing and supporting the likes of fraudulent baba like GSD. In the end we all want to do the right thing. Yes GSD is satan's child for all who know the truth and he will have to repent for his wicked ways.
Serve God and give up your wicked ways working for Satan there's still time

[um]

@ Manoj

Maybe I don't express myself well enough, maybe you don't read well.

I never write a word about the divine, supernatural powers, about teachings and teachers or do I express my emotions or thoughts about these issues.

Whatever I write here is relate how people handle these issues.

Most people I know of when seeing documentaries on all sorts of leaders, teachers, politicians, look at the man or woman in the center .... and ....forget to look at the public, the followers, the students etc and the relation between the two.

For me questions of the reality of something like, in your case, satan, are non issues for me. What interests me however on the other hand is what it means for you and how you use it in your life.

You are a reality, you write here, etc. with you I have to deal as a reader.

[Um]

@ Manoj

I forgot to ask you a question irt the advice you gave me at the end of your message:

"Serve God and give up your wicked ways working for Satan there's still time"

[1] How is God to be served according you?
[2] What are my wicked ways working for satan?
[3] What happens if the time is up according you and I fail to heed your words?

[Dragon slayer]

@um
There are groups like the nazis party that people followed and raised Hitler to power under a demonic and satanic ideology of superiority. We know that was wrong and people just watched this tyrant as he ordered the murder of millions of jews. If only someone had tried to stop this devil through awareness. This charlatan baba of beas fills you with a hyponotic love, creates a group of sleeping sangat and drains the sangat of everything. I am raising awareness of this fake path and a fake spiritual guru. All I ask is just look at his actions and you'll find that his greed far outweighs his twisted version of compassion.

[Dragon slayer]

@um
Yes it is the nature of human beings to belong in groups, to help each other along this difficult life. But these natural groups can easily be taken advantage by clever manipulating dark beings (gsd and rssb are examples) with ulterior motives for the innocent loving souls. These parasites befriend there hosts with love and light and then enter into the sevadar and totally possess the perceptions. They then create there own groups eg RSSB. The sangat become zombies and lose their capacity to think rationally and critically, as they dance to the tune of the entities inside them. If you are defending the baba of beas, knowing full well from the facts that he is not who he says he is, then Um you have become possessed and in control by your master , satan , Lucifer...or what ever you want to call this being.

[Um]

@ dragon slayer

No being has that capacity as you write ... it is just your belief.

Those who stand before the house of the Indian actor that performed the role of Arjuna or other deity were not manipulated by the actor but by their own thoughts and emotions and the actor had not the power to stop them.

As I wrote and I do repeat it .... those who go to the market and stop where the snake oil seller tells his tales, do so because they are seeking for snake-oil .... simple solutions for a complex problem. The man that sales the oil is not to blame .... each and everybody is personal responsible for what he thinks, feels and does.

Nobody has forced you to think as you do about negative powers ... you wanted it. ... it helps you to solve a problem.

[Don]

Dragon Slayer are you Sikh?

[manoj]

@Um

Don't be a wiseguy thinking you have all the answers. We're all learning through out life but some think they're a know it all. Why not give Google a run for they're money, or write a book and bore us all to death or better still maybe run for president Lol. Not everyone loves GSDs lame ass Satsangs and despicable devilish cult. stop the batting or get ready to pay the price

[um]

@ manoj

You are just asked some simple questions, answerable in a simple way.
Questions about yourself and nothing else.

You come here with all sorts of claims, statements and allegations and you are asked where they are based upon. It has been asked by others too.

What is there the problem?

And nobody will ask you, anything about your preferences in life.

If you don't like or even hate coffee, that is alright, don drink it
But if you call it a poisonous drink and admonish other people to stop drinking it, that is something else.

You wrote:
"Serve God and give up your wicked ways working for Satan there's still time"

[1] How is God to be served according you?
[2] What are my wicked ways working for satan?
[3] What happens if the time is up according you and I fail to heed your words?

and you wrote:
"get ready to pay the price for batting"

[4] What is the price to be payed?

And I my friend, I will make myself a tasty cup of coffee, doubting that you will ever answer these simple questions in a simple way. Personally I do think you are a newly convert to this or that religious orthodox cult or an Qanon disciple.

[Dragon slayer]

@dom
So you are trying to put me in a box, label it and divide and conquer. What does it matter what religion I am!!!!. Isnt there not enough religions and divisions in the world with cults like RSSB now becoming the fastest growing new religion. What have they to offer but to trap the egos of so called sevader thinking they are the chosen marked sheep when they are really conned by the cunning fox. They are nothing but the tools of kaal, satan.

[um]

@ Dragon Slayer

>>They are nothing but the tools of kaal, satan.<<

To write these words, use these concepts, in the way you do, you must be in a box and that box has a label too.
Being in that box you discriminate between this and that and by doing so you divide.

[Don]

D. Slayer it was just a simple q.

[manoj]

@Um

The simple answers to your simple questions are they're GSD, whoops I meant Um. A Q&A session just like GSD loves, you're not looking to become a fraudulent Billionaire baba are you? Not many places left be quick.
Remember in the end thinking youre a clever cloggs won't get you anywhere except with your master Lucy Lucifer. Oh and personally I think you're a....fill in the gaps and do one.

[um]

@ manoj

English is not my mother tongue so if you want me to understand what you wrote you have to fill in the gaps.
:-))
The phelps family was not afraid to express themselves, why should you?

[Dragon Slayer]

@um
Let's see if you can understand this.
Your box is made by Gurinder Singh Dhillon and he has put you in it - this box is your world. What's more you will not know that you are in the box.
That is why you need someone out of that box to tell you that you are trapped in your box, and break those chains. Stop being the puppet of your master (satan) and ask yourself with the evidence you know , is GSD, the paramsant sat guru, the perfect living example ? If your answer is yes , then you remain in the box you have trapped yourself in

[Um]

@ Dragon Slayer

The way you describe me as being placed in a box by another human being, is not how I perceive myself.

If I go to the bakery, I have the idea that I am the one that takes the initiative to go there based on his need for croissants and bread. I go to that particular bakery because his bread is according my taste; there are others I could go to. I am not particular interested in the baker and his staff as long as I am treated according my understanding of polite service. Not for a second the thought arises that i was forced by anybody to go there let alone the baker.

And yes the man makes good money selling bread his bread but he didn't steal it from me.

You want me to see and be seen as a puppet dragged by the baker to his shop, robbed from my money and chased home with empty hands. That is allright.

Things are what they are,
seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented by interested onlookers.

Facts have no meaning.
Meaning is attributed and not related to the facts but to the person attributing.

And for your information ... i am not an initiate of him and have lost all interest in spiritual matters like the one that wakes up in a movie or one that closes a book he was reading and lost in.

It was great fun reading the book, watching the movie ... and am grateful to the authors.

[Dragon slayer]

@um
Facts are not subjective , they don't change with perspective .

RSSB influence is all subliminal and indirect , and they get you in a way you would never suspect. Your box is crafted from birth by ypur parents, then the huge amount of rssb books thrust on you for independent research, then the huge influence of following the crowd. The whole group is isolated from the others in a culture of superiority and feeling they are the chosen ones and special. Then there's the magic and hypnotic tricks played by the guru - no other religion ever does darshan where u are told to look into the gurus eyes. There is then the meditation where you go into a trance state by mantra. Then there's influence from your dreams, visions, and flashy lights on the inside. All this cements you and generations of families in that RSSB box for ever and lifetimes. This all is a trap of satan /lucifer , this is the box you are in, that you are born in and that you get recycled into for the benefit only of RSSB and Lucifer /kaal.

[Um]

@ Dragon Slayer

First of all thank you for finally giving more information about what you see from where you stand.

You write:
>> Facts are not subjective , they don't change with perspective .<<

Facts are just facts ... that is right but people do not deal with the facts but which what THEY attribute to these facts and that depends on how these facts are seen and that depends on the place where they stand

Just stand up and have a look around. From where you STAND you can SEE certain things. Certain, due to how the "machine is made". Now turn around and look again, By doing so you change your stand-point.
Every stand point has his own possibilities in term of information that can be processed mentally. If it is part of the point where you stand to become angry, just to give an example, there is no way you can get rid of that anger. You can try to suppress it, take a pill or go to a counselor, it is all of no avail. If you than place your self in another position from where things are seen from an other perspective ... it might well be so that tghe same anger cannot exist.

Than to what you wrote next:
Everybody has parents and is CONDITIONED by his parents, schooling, friends, environment, and many other social-cultural influences..... so you too have come to live in a box crafted by your parents, to use your words.

It is normal for people to be part of many social-cultural groups and aware of it. They recognize themselves as Indian, American or whatever and are willing to die for that recognition. The list of memberships is endless. The way how this or that person deals with that membership of a particular group differs and is an psychological issue. You know how proud you are about your own memberships and how you consider them a better choice than other memberships available. Some people do need this awareness more than others .. again ... that are psychological issues.

What the so called magic and hypnotic tricks are concerned, do talk to as many different satsangis as you can. You will soon learn that there are few that ever come that close to the guru that they can look him in the eyes.

Sant mat is not an religion but idealiter an spiritual practice that can be compared with the practices in monasteries. Those who live in a monastery do the same thing as all people outside but all their daily activities are centered around a central goal or purpose if you like. The whole practice of meditation as used in these monasteries, can be labeled as a means to manipulate the body and the mind in such a way that they become receptive for the divine. If you study these techniques you will find that under the superficial differences, they are practically the same. Most religions, even those that have monasteries, don't want their believers to do meditation and scare them by calling that practice satanic. It goes to far to elaborate here the reasons why they do so.

And as far as dreams etc is concerned ... do we not all dream and are dreams in our hand? Some have visions and from having these visions, the state of Israel was born as a promise of God tho his Chosen people. Other religions were born from such visions as there is Islam. In fact, all religions are born from what people have HEARD from people that had visions.

So you are right all people have come to be in-closed in a box, you too. Sometimes one box is replaced by another box. People live a life and are engrossed in many plays or games as I love to call them. These games are played in the way we read books or lose ourselves seeing a movie.

Sometimes, some people do wake up from being engrossed and lost in the movie of life or a part of the book of life. These things do happen like visions, there is no way to provoke them and if they happen one has to deal with it. Not always that simple as people in the close environment are not pleased, to say the least. The prophet was in the beginning considered insane and may of his colleges were tortured and killed.

There is not such a thing as subliminal influence. but people do process information that they gather or that is put before them, each according his own mental state and social-cultural environment.

Thinking about forces, having that power is a matter of outsourcing onnce personal responsibilities.

The way you talk about Kaal and satan does tell that you are member of an certain religious school of thinking that enforces you to see things the way you do .... you are an BELIEVER from what you HEARD from others .... something all believers do

The games we play, the things we believe are just a pastime, tools to live our life.

Nobody and nothing in this as worth our devotion, attention,love,respect or whatever. bu being alive we are free to GIVE our devotion etc to the things and people we like and rep the results from that investment.

Not many want to be free and bear the reposibilities of freedom.

[um]

To many typos .... the last should be

Nobody and nothing in this life is worth our devotion, attention, love, respect or whatever. but being alive we are free to GIVE our devotion etc to the things and people we like and reap the results from that investment.

Not many want to be free and bear the reposibilities of freedom.

[anami]

"Facts are not subjective , they don't change with perspective .
RSSB influence is all subliminal and indirect , and they get you in a way you would never suspect."

Dragon slayer,

You're a poet, and you don't know it!
But seriously, if Lucifer or Kal were involved, the Path would be faster, easier and more fun. Could you get through one day of life without your shish kebab and shisa?

[1111]

Was GSD on the Board at Ranbaxy?

Did he know about the secret document Ranbaxy worked so hard to keep hidden from Daichi Sankyo?

If so, then without a shadow of a doubt he’s guilty.

[Dragonslayer]

@anami
A cowardly response from a sleeping agent of RSSB. Looks like you have learned allot from your master , aka kaal. You believe a total fraudulent baba that claims to take you to heaven provided you be a good little boy . Yet hes allowed to get away with anything and you say I take shisha . My advise is stay away from crooked babas, and lay of the magic mushrooms .

[anami]

Dragonslayer,

In the final analysis, progress on any road we can travel is probably a lot more about our actions as individuals than which group or guru we attach ourselves to. If Baba Ji and RSSB don't fit your ideal, then maybe it's up to you. Make a better example. The world could benefit.

[Noobslayer]

Dragonslayer how can someone take you seriously when you believe in lucifer existence. It's the same as fundamentalists belive in God. I at least hope your commenting is hoping you heal your boxed frustrated anger packed into delusional duality thinking if it's not master it is lucifer. If you want solution clear master and lucifer out of your nervous religious head.

[manoj]

@anami

The world could definitely benefit if you could make better changes within yourself and get rid of this Satanic virus of Babas & Cults.

For the Blind following the Blind (GSD) will get you nowhere except a well earned place in hell with your so called God. Today mark's a day in DIWALI when Ravana (GSD) the demon king was defeated and the fight of good over evil was won. Happy Diwali

[Dragonslayer]

@unami and the noob
Looks like I hit a raw nerve with a fundamentalist RSSB, sleeping agent. From now on I'll make it simple and just say GSD instead of lucifer - I don't want to confuse you. You only know one half of the story if you refuse to believe there is a negative force - sorry GSD. Just like Sita , got fooled by Raven, the demon king, when he turned into a deer to fool her. Look around you , what was the origin or murder, rape, power ... etc when we were all originally particles of god.

[anami]

manoj,

Name calling and churchy psychobabble prove nothing. Way back when, Ravana's people probably called Ram the devil and thought Sita very fortunate to gain their leader's protection. Politicians after the religious vote routinely demonize their opponents. Preachers yell devil, demon, Lucifer, Satan all day long. Whoever's shoveling that talk into your head, please walk away.

[NoobSlayer]

Dragonslayer you just proved you are in the box. Immediately someone says something opposite to you, You think he or she is rssb. Sorry Bro I don't have any slight connection to rssb or any religion like you. And BTW I even don't think any of that about you what I said to you. I just wanted to confirm how you live in a box. Dragonslayer I wish you very well in life and rethink about yourself sometime. Be well Bro

[manoj]

@anami

"The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled Was Convincing the World He Didn’t Exist"
The King of Liars

Stop doing his dirty laundry. GSD has that base already covered.
You can cover up for satan and his cronies (GSD) but in the end you will have to pay the heavenly price, go figure...

[anami]

"The Greatest Trick the Devil Ever Pulled Was Convincing the World He Didn’t Exist"

manoj,

That's a really good quote, and I applaud you for taking the effort!

I looked it up. It was the last line in a film, The Usual Suspects, and was spoken by Kevin Spacey as the narrator. It continues, "And like that -- poof -- he's gone!" Others first said similar...
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/03/20/devil/

Kevin Spacey, now there's a naughty little devil!