"Mystical" experiences aren't what meditation is about

Today someone asked me and someone else some questions about the meditation I did during the 35 years I was an active member of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a religious organization headquartered in India. 

Here's what Tony Wims said in a comment.

Hey Brian or Osho. Just curious: Did either of you ever see the light or hear the sound during meditation?

If you did, what stopped you from developing your perception further?
If you didn't, I'm actually really surprised that you didn't and you were initiated.

Were you following the precepts? ( If you didn't see/hear).
Did you not start by placing your attention at the 3rd eye center?

I know I shouldn't be, because anything is possible, but I'm very surprised to hear of initiates who left the path. Especially if they had even a brief glimpse of the light or a snippet of the sound.

Thank you in advance for your answer. Forgive me for asking if you don't feel like it.

Hey, I have no problem with questions about my meditation experience. But before I get to the answers, I'll share some observations about the assumptions underlying Tony's comment.

The main assumption is that there's such a thing as supernatural light and sound emanating from higher spiritual regions of reality. I used to believe this was true, but beliefs are different from what actually is the case.

There's no demonstrable evidence of anything supernatural, much less mystical light and sound. So the burden of proof rests on those who claim that there is, not skeptics like me who doubt the existence of realms beyond the physical.

Another assumption is that meditation is aimed at anything other than being fully in touch with what appears in one's consciousness. Yes, I realize that Tony is talking about a very special form of meditation, Surat Shabd Yoga, or uniting one's soul with a divine sound current. 

Again, this is a religious belief, not a proven reality.

In fact, a comment Sonia left today appears to accurately describe how the current guru of RSSB, Gurinder Singh Dhillon (GSD), looks upon meditation. What Sonia says fits with the notion that Dhillon has moved RSSB to what's been termed v. 2.0 and v. 3.0. 

@Tony Most people don’t recognize the light or sound.

GSD just said some people go to the doctor thinking they have tinnitus when really it’s the “sound”. He also said if you want to see lights go to a disco. He’s made it abundantly clear that seeing the light or hearing sound is not what meditation is about. Many people won’t recognize it. He said just do your meditation.

The reason he says all of this is because satsangis complain over and over and over again to him about not hearing the sound or seeing light during meditation.

And the only reason I’m sharing this with you is so that you will understand that your Master never promised you a rose garden—he never promises you’ll see light and sound and most of your fellow satsangis don’t have that experience.

That was my clear impression also from the three-plus decades I spent talking with countless (more or less) RSSB initiates, or satsangis. i used to do a lot of speaking on behalf of RSSB, where one of my favorite lines was "The easiest vow to uphold is the one against talking about your mystical experiences, because no one is having any."

The line always got a laugh.

And no one ever came up to me afterwards and said I was wrong. As Sonia said, most RSSB devotees aren't focused on experiencing inner lights and sounds. They're focused on other things: the guru, going to RSSB meetings, being a vegetarian, socializing with RSSB friends, and such.

Getting back to Tony's questions, in 2014 I wrote a blog post called "I'm asked about my RSSB meditation experience." These lengthy excerpts address the more recent questions from Tony.

In "Why I'm justified in complaining about Sant Mat" I wrote:

I was initiated in the spring of 1971. For over thirty years—until 2002 or so—I was damn near a model satsangi (disciple).

I never missed a day of meditation. Mostly it was for the full proscribed two and a half hours. Sometimes less. One and a half hours was a minimum, such as when my daughter needed after-work attention and I was working full time. I followed the other vows perfectly, aside from having a single drink at my ten year high school reunion, which was just too freaking weird to endure without a dose of alcohol.

So don't tell me that I can't complain about Sant Mat and Radha Soami Satsang Beas. I'm totally justified in doing so. Because I know more about this philosophy and this organization than most initiates. Not just book knowledge—direct experience also.

Or, lack of experience, when it comes to meditation. I'm typical in this regard. Over those three decades I talked with hundreds, maybe thousands, of RSSB meditators. Very few, perhaps none, had experienced what they were told to expect. Those flights to inner mystical regions and the meeting with their guru's radiant astral form.

With me, it wasn't for lack of effort. Again, I did everything right. And the results were wrong. Now, many of the faithful would say, "Brian, you expected too much, too soon." Give me a break.

Thirty years isn't too soon. A glimpse of the promised spiritual land isn't too much.

In "Q and A about me and Sant Mat" I wrote this in response to another question that I'd gotten:

(2) Why do you think you never had a spiritual experience despite 30 years of devoted meditation?

Like I've been saying in several posts lately, including here, I'm not sure what "spiritual" means anymore. I had plenty of experiences in meditation.

What I didn't have was the sort of out-of-body, astral projecting, soul-flying, blasts of cosmic light and sound experiences that the Radha Soami Satsang Beas version of Sant Mat tells disciples to expect in meditation.

A few days after I was initiated I heard loud bell sounds inside my head while I was meditating. These never came back. I've had other glimpses of inner light and hearings of inner sound, but these could be (and probably are) produced by the brain, not immaterial soul or spirit.

Over more than three decades I've talked with lots of fellow RSSB initiates about their experiences in meditation. More accurately, their lack thereof.

When these people spoke honestly and openly (which usually isn't done in the formal satsangs, or talks), I learned that my lack of mind-blowing meditation experiences was par for the course in Sant Mat.

So there you have it.

Naturally I had lots of experiences in meditation. It was impossible not to have them, since I was awake and aware for most of the 1.5 to 2.5 hours of meditation I did each day for over thirty years. (Yeah, I'd fall asleep occasionally.)

I feel like I gained a lot from all that meditating.

It was a mix of "mantra meditation" (repeating a word or words to concentrate the mind) and "open awareness" meditation (trying to be still, mentally and physically, and being aware of what passes through consciousness).

Thus even though Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) views its meditation technique as something special, actually it is very much in the meditation mainstream. Mantras and open awareness are used in many other meditative practices.

The RSSB meditation did focus on "going within," though, to a much greater extent than mindfulness practices do. That is, the initiate was supposed to direct his/her attention to the third eye, or eye center, which supposedly was a gateway to higher realms of consciousness.

Now my daily meditation usually involves more of a balanced approach.

I like to follow my breathing for part of the time, either counting breaths or simply being aware of my breathing body doing its thing. I also enjoy mantra meditation. Usually I choose different words than the Five Holy Names taught by RSSB, but for old time's sake I'll occasionally return to the mantra I repeated for so many years.

It's difficult for me to describe what I experienced during my RSSB meditation years. As noted before, I've sat for tens of thousands of hours in meditation. How is it possible to sum that up in a few words? 

I laughed; I cried; I was joyful; I was sad; I was peaceful; I was restless; I felt at one with the cosmos; I felt alone. And so much more.

One of the key things I learned was the difference between what my conscious mind does, and what the rest of my mind does. Well, let me rephrase that, because I no longer believe there are two entities inside my head: me, and my mind. 

There is just one: brain/mind, or whatever you want to call it.

I used to enjoy, and still do, the sensation of either repeating a mantra, or doing nothing, and being aware of what happens inside my head when the brain/mind aspect called "I" isn't trying to direct the show of consciousness.

As anyone who meditates knows (or anyone who is alive knows)... a lot happens.

The brain/mind, like an iceberg, consists of a whole lot more than our conscious awareness, will, intention, and such. Dualistic forms of meditation, which see a distinction between soul and mind, or pure consciousness and impure consciousness, consider those unintended goings-on to be a distraction. Non-dual forms of meditation, such as mindfulness and Zen, don't.

To them, as to me these days, what happens in the brain/mind is what is happening. To deny it is to deny reality. Thoughts come and go. So do emotions, perceptions, intuitions, and much else. 

Thus whereas I used to believe that God and the guru were responsible for what happened within my consciousness when I wasn't trying to make anything happen, now I realize that the part of brain/mind outside of conscious awareness is responsible.

I still feel that I'm part of something much larger than myself. I just don't call it God, or divine. It is me. And the world, which really isn't different from me. 

Comments

[Sonia]

GSD has admitted that he didn’t meditate regularly before he became the Master (Q & A December 2015). Who knows what kind of electric light shows he’s experiencing now. The previous Masters would talk about their inner experiences but GSD has chosen not to.

All roads lead to Rome. Find what works for you and do it. Don’t force yourself into something that doesn’t feel right. If what we call “God” or the spirit truly is in everything and everyone then it doesn’t matter which path you follow. You will eventually find your way home.

[Sonia]

Correction: GSD said he wasn’t a regular meditator at first after he got initiated. I imagine he was meditating regularly by the time he was appointed.

[Vinny]

I was awake and aware for 1.5 to 2.5 hours of meditation. Unquote. What about 24 hours - 2.5 hours ? You can't compensate the unstable mind of 22 hours by two hours of meditation.

[888]

I heard up to 11h.

[Sonia]

I sleep at least 10 hours a day (I’m a sleeper) so 2.5 is like doing a marathon. I could sit for hours and hours when I was on Adderall but the doctors took it from me in India (long story). They said it was banned in every other country except US (not sure that’s true). Anyway, seriously cut into my meditation time. Things started slowly going South after that.

Meditation is hard.

[Truth warrior]

GSD has not done a days meditation. How can that con artist meditate and focus when he has his fingers in over 16 companies, is a bully land mafia, and a billionaire baba enjoying the spoils of private jets. He is totally ego driven with a lust for money, power greed and control. He is no where any where near the heavenly chakras and on the contrary in the root chakra where the ego passions dominate.

[Osho Robbins]

@ Tony Wims

My take on all this is a bit different from Brian.

First of all - I have been interested in sant mat since the age of 8 / 10. I used to take "spiritual link" to school to read it and I had full faith and belief in the truth of it all.

By the time I got to university, I was hungry for truth. I wanted to make sure I didn't get side-tracked into a false path.

I came across a group called "SOTM" at university
"Spiritual Organisation for the Teachings of the Master"
A very strong cult headed by ISHVARA (John Yarr)
I attended their discourses and was eventually initiated.
Initiation was not given easily and the initiation process was a full weekend
All day meditation for 10 - 12 hours a day for both days.

That organisation eventually collapsed and John Yarr is still teaching
now called
http://1meditation.com/

I left in 1981 and met Thakar singh in London on his tour.
He said "I will show you light on initiation - then decide if it's true"
I went along and got initiated. I saw light just as many others had

a white fog-like light. I went home and meditated in a dark room to see if it was still there in
a pitch dark room. It was. I was hooked.
I meditated and within a short while my body would go numb and I could sit and meditate for
hours on end with no effort.
The meditation was enjoyable because I was seeing light. I wasn't into the sound as much.
Then I met swami Divyanand also in London.
in 1983 and the following 4 years I went to India and met
Darshan Singh and also Swami Divyanand in Utter pardesh
He promised to give me a permanent experience of the sound if I stayed and meditated for just 3 days. I did and I could hear the sound all the time after that.

Obviously I was convinced I had found the true path.
I had numerous experiences of intense blinding light.

I didn't abandon the path but I never got much further.
No regions, or meetings with Sat purush or any of his side kicks.

I met and spent time with many of the sant mat gurus
Thakar Singh; Darshan Singh; Ajaib Singh;
Swami Diyvanand; Dr Harbhajan (kirpal's doctor and claimiant to successorship)
and
Sant Rasila Ram (initiate of Sawan); Baba Kehar (tarn tarn satsang successor)

I was definitely not a believer in "one guru"

Then in the year 2000 I met Mikaire In London - a whole different style of guru.
He would shout and say whatever came to mind. He objective was to bring you
out of your mind and into spontaneous expression of your thoughts and feelings.

I did a five day workshop with him which had a profound effect on me.
No meditation was involved.

I also met another man at the same time who showed me a whole new path.

He was an Ex-RSSB follower and told me enlightenment was totally mis-understood.

he told me:
"You are already enlightened - everyone is - but you are deluded into a sense of separation"
"there is nothing to do and nowhere to go"

naturally I thought he was deluded.

But combined with the five day workshop (which culminated in me being thrown out on day five)
a new truth began to emerge

That the "I" that I always thought was "ME" was an illusion and not real.

and the idea of seeking a "GOD" out there (in Sach Khand) was naive.

For the first time I understood what ONE means.

I understood what DUALITY means.

I understood that everything within time and space (including ME) was illusory by nature.

It all ends - and that which ends is unreal - dream-like - temporary.

Sure - it's REAL in the moment - just like a dream is real in the moment.

but a dream is not real BECAUSE it ends.

this life is not real for the same reason.

REAL = ETERNAL

so in summary
I am not saying there is no light and sound or experiences.
There are - but they are fabricated by the mind.

Check out lucid dreaming - the mind is capable of creating any reality.

Enlightenment has a different take on all this

it's not about gaining anything - it's about losing
everything - including your own identity

[um]

@ Osho

Spiritual link, wasn't that an periodical from the Beas lineage?!

How come that you didn't start with them?

And .. impressive journey you made

[Osho Robbins]

@um
Yes - My father was one of the earliest UK satsangis (beas)
I grew up convinced I had found the only way to God.

I didn't start with beas because I had better offers
- the SOTM I mentioned before and then Thakar who guaranteed light / sound on initiation.
purely a business decision
also the beas master was inaccessible whereas I wanted to be on a personal journey with
lots of personal time with the guru - which is what I had in the end with Thakar and Darshan
They both knew me personally. I fell out with Thakar because I asked him about the sex scandal
when he came to the UK and he said
"Like my guru Kirpal used to say "Mind your own business""
referring to a talk by Kirpal singh which said "Focus on your own spiritual journey"

[Sonia]

@Osho

Yes, seriously impressive. Very interesting indeed. Wasn’t aware of your history and haven’t heard of others with background like yours.

[Spence Tepper]

We each of us are bound and defined by our experience. And anything outside that experience is hard to accept, unless we are conditioned to do so.

Eye witness accounts that don't fit or world view are discounted as illusion.

When someone has spent decades trying to believe in an alternate view but can't get there they have earned the right to discount that view as false, at least for them.

And when someone was born into that experience, they can do nothing but live on in it.

[Sage]

The premise that should make one put effort into Santmat shouldn't be experiences of light and sound, but of the life within oneself, experiencing other universes made up of different particles, much different physics and unimaginably far more lucid things than the brain.
Everything else makes no difference, shouldn't be of any value.
It is kinda about finding the screen towards outside and breaking through from a video game.

It's stuff for people with such dreams and longings of breaking free, of escaping or perhaps transcending the observed reality.
Aren't light and sound supposed to be metaphors? And aren't any genuine experiences supposed to be ones that transform a person from a human to something else entirely, say add godliness to consciousness? And shouldn't all of this be beyond the scope of imagination of the highest IQ creature possible to create in this world?

Anyway, Oshorobbins' experiences with all the masters make him sound like someone who had the 9th-grade syndrome.

[Dungeness]

@ "Like my guru Kirpal used to say "Mind your own business""
@ referring to a talk by Kirpal singh which said "Focus on your own spiritual
@ journey"

I think Kirpal was spot on. Hints of scandal, speculation, rumors,
innuendo, family sins, press reports feed the mind not spirituality.
Be free of the tyranny of of petty interruptions. The journey inside
is far more important.

[Vinny]

You can sit all day in meditation while the home you live in has no light with electric failure. Seva / Service is more important than meditation .

[Sonia]

@Sage

Have you transcended Reality? I feel like an Existential Detective asking you that. Honestly, if it were that easy, sounds great. But how many people actually experience what you're talking about?

And what is the 9th-grade syndrome?

[manoj]

A greedy little dwarf like GSD has no wordly morals as how to live life, do you really think hes got a clue of the inside worlds. Money makes GSD world go round living a life full of riches ripped of others to fulfill his lustful love for the Rupee. God and enlightenment are just as new to GSD as to you and I. Ever living a life full of deception as a know it all without knowing anything. Might as well go to the Circus you'd learn more there than GSDs so called bogus Satsangs. Get a life GSD and let others live they'res...Clowns don't we just hate them

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"And the only reason I’m sharing this with you is so that you will understand that your Master never promised you a rose garden—he never promises you’ll see light and sound and most of your fellow satsangis don’t have that experience.

That was my clear impression also from the three-plus decades I spent talking with countless (more or less) RSSB initiates, or satsangis. i used to do a lot of speaking on behalf of RSSB, where one of my favorite lines was "The easiest vow to uphold is the one against talking about your mystical experiences, because no one is having any."

The line always got a laugh."

@Brian,

Good share!

You know there are a lot of teachings. Especially from Hazur Sawan Singh and Maharaj Ji Charan's Sant Mat v1.0.

Your remembering a rose garden reminds me of how as a kid I could never grow anything. I think it was 3rd grade when my teacher gave me some pumpkin seeds to sprout, then grow. We were supposed to put the seeds in a damp paper towel and then hang it in the sunlight. Well, mines always came back dead or all dried up. My sister, and all the other kids were sprouting seeds left and right. But I just didn't get it.

It wasn't until I had reached junior high school that I gave trying to grow anything another attempt. A new friend had a lemon tree in his yard a we picked them all the time. Anyway, so I saved a seed and gave the old wet paper towel thingy another go. Just this time, I kept dipping it into water every three hours one summer.

Sure enough, the seed poped and begun to sprout. Before that, I thought everyone had some special plant grower power. Now I see that there was a lacking on my part.

Surat Shabd Yoga teaches about many pitfalls, clutches, or blockages one may encounter during practice. And that is where the Teacher comes in, Satsang, and Sewa. To help us realize where we are lacking. Of course we need to figure what that may be.

On the other hand, v1.0 also teaches that one may be further along the path because of their past good/great deeds in past lives. So you also could be on the very edge of reaching/realizing Sach Khand this lifetime. Creating a final vacuum.

Radha Soami brother!

[Sonia]

@Karim

I’m not knocking the practice at all, but this part sounds like a disclaimer, “Surat Shabd Yoga teaches about many pitfalls, clutches, or blockages one may encounter during practice.” It makes me nervous. I was always afraid of those potential “pitfalls”. I mean, what happens to the people who go inside and make a wrong turn? And of all people, I can assure you I would most likely be one of those unfortunates. :/

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

I was always afraid of those potential “pitfalls”. I mean, what happens to the people who go inside and make a wrong turn? And of all people, I can assure you I would most likely be one of those unfortunates. :/

Posted by: Sonia | September 09, 2020 at 07:47 PM

Well you're not the only one.

I've concerns all the time in meditation. Before Covid-19 and the restricted mail I'd direct my toughei questions only to Baba Ji.

From memory, the pitfalls were directed at people who didn't have a Teacher w/mastery of the real Sehaj yoga. Those who start from the mul charkra then rise from center to center. The pitfalls; becoming stuck at those centers or believing there were no higher centers once attaining the bliss of one.

[um]

@ Manoj

>>Clowns don't we just hate them....<<

That depends .... in a circus or in a hospital people love to see them.

You appear like a man that rushes into a circus act of clowns or clini clowns in the hospital, shouting that people do not have themselves fooled by these clowns.

People will say to one another ... what is this clown doing?

There are clowns and clowns and they are not equally appreciated by all and that is how it should be. you are also appreciated

[Dragon slayer]

@karim
Surat Shabd Yoga teaches about many pitfalls, clutches, or blockages one may encounter during practice. And that is where the Teacher comes in, Satsang, and Sewa. To help us realize where we are lacking. Of course we need to figure what that may be.

This is a load of typical new age rssb propaganda that goes around that actually mean nothing. The only pitfall is falling for fake paths and fake gurus like GSD, and allowing yourself to get so brainwashed that you cant see the wood from the trees. You all to easily give your power away to a so called teacher comes who you say comes to help - when in actual fact they do nothing and watch you get trapped like a fish caught in a fish hook. Further more the shiny lights inside is a complete trap and distraction , you are no better off having seen these illusions - infact your ego inflates. All that happens is you go deeper into the spiders web of lies and illusions. Wash your face and wake up to what you allowed to control you.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"Further more the shiny lights inside is a complete trap and distraction , you are no better off having seen these illusions - infact your ego inflates. All that happens is you go deeper into the spiders web of lies and illusions. Wash your face and wake up to what you allowed to control you."

Posted by: Dragon slayer | September 10, 2020 at 03:38 PM

Thank you for your concern. It is much appreciated as I didn't always have Sehaj yoga aka Surat Shabd. Before I learned of its existence, I dabbled in a little 'self guided' Astral Travel. I even forget who's method I used as I was still in high school, and just stumbled upon a book or some magazine on it from the City Library.

But you can bet your arse it worked! I almost lost control trying to fly as high as I could. And a strange thing did happen the last and final occasion I was experimenting with it. No lights at all, but something turned me away from its realm -boy was it pissed.

No problems like this since Baba Ji though, cheers!

[Dungeness]

@ The RSSB meditation did focus on "going within," though, to a much greater
@ extent than mindfulness practices do. That is, the initiate was supposed to
@ direct his/her attention to the third eye, or eye center, which supposedly
@ was a gateway to higher realms of consciousness.

Ishwar Puri's language resonates with me as his emphasis
was more on "totality of awareness" as the goal which I
envision as a kind of hyper "open awareness". The inner
experiences and regions are side shows. Just derivatives
of that increasing awareness.

The "going within" and "third eye" are strictly notional.
Where is there to go? We are already located at the
"third eye" in our wakeful consciousness Puri adds. You
notionally sit behind the eyes because you're less prone
to "nodding off". Navel contemplators are doing it the
hard way I suspect.

The main point is that awareness is everything. Not
thought, not experience, not going through portals.
Just being still, being aware, then heightening it.
Then sound and light and experiences will happen
on the journey. You don't slog out a long journey
anywhere though because you were already there.
You just lost awareness of it.

But even if it takes decades or lifetimes, along the
wway, you still get a dose of a substance, a thing, a
sensation, how do you describe it... that's addictive.

As you beautifully express:

"I used to enjoy, and still do, the sensation of either repeating a mantra, or doing nothing, and being aware of what happens inside my head when the brain/mind aspect called "I" isn't trying to direct the show of consciousness."

[Sonia]

@Dungeness

But isn’t there more to spiritually than awareness? Doesn’t awareness simply imply some sort “I or me”? What about bliss? I don’t want to be aware of my me-ness or separateness. Not in the end... I mean where is “there”?

[Dungeness]

@ But isn’t there more to spiritually than awareness? Doesn’t awareness
@ simply imply some sort “I or me”? What about bliss? I don’t want to be
@ aware of my me-ness or separateness. Not in the end... I mean where
@ is “there”?

I have no idea what spirituality is. I can only parrot Puri's words
as an intriguing theory. What I really resonate with is Brian's
observation about enjoying the ride on becoming "aware of
what happens inside my head when the' brain/mind aspect
called 'I' isn't trying to direct the show of consciousness."

Dunno "where" it is. But it feels blissful and effortless and, for a
timeless moment, notions of 'I' vanish. It's enough to fuel an
addiction.

[Truth warior]

@Karim
No lights at all, but something turned me away from its realm -boy was it pissed. No problems like this since Baba Ji though, cheers!

Looks like you went out of one trap and into the fire place. You have no idea what you are playing with and what you can trust on the inside. If there are trickster on the outside, aka GSD, there are definitely more sophisticated tricksters on the inside.

[Sage]

@Sonya
9th grade Syndrome is like Chūnibyō, but more of a grown-up version of it.

No person can ever claim to have transcended reality, just like you can't tell someone that you've woken up inside your dream. How is your brain supposed to know what you experience outside your everyday reality?

Also, does it matter whether anyone can make these claims? Or if anyone has made these claims in the past? It makes no difference.

[Sonia]

No person can ever claim to have transcended reality, just like you can't tell someone that you've woken up inside your dream. How is your brain supposed to know what you experience outside your everyday reality?

Also, does it matter whether anyone can make these claims? Or if anyone has made these claims in the past? It makes no difference.

Posted by: Sage | September 19, 2020 at 09:49 AM

As far as mystical experiences go, the only proof is the proof you experience yourself. So, no it doesn’t matter what other people claim and there’s no point in making claims.

As far as experiencing other dimensions or worlds is concerned, how does that help you achieve your objective.

[Jen]

Dragon slayer: "This is a load of typical new age rssb propaganda that goes around that actually mean nothing."

How I miss the New Age movement. It was a time of flower power and unity and love. Nowadays its all about the dark side of life, protests and criticism, negativity and judgment. It can always be a choice, we can decide to believe in love and light and experience life with joy and happiness.

Sonia: "As far as experiencing other dimensions or worlds is concerned, how does that help you achieve your objective."

If magical thinking helps, why not enjoy it instead of constantly thinking about the darkness and decay. Live each moment and dance with joy to experience mystical experiences. After all, this life and the way we think can make you happy or sad. Its a choice.

[Sage]

Gaining the ability to fly and becoming a dragon has nothing to do with the objectives of a snake. You leave the objectives of a snake far behind when you become a dragon.

Some people have gender disphoria. Can one without any experience of the disphoria, actually understand them? How would you explain a republican Christian the need to transition? They'd find it illogical to do so instead of lifting weights or wearing dresses.

How do you explain Vystopia to a butcher?

There is a container with water on it which has the reflection of the moon. Oshorobbins has stepped on it and claimed the realization of the Getsuga.
How do you explain the real size and distance of the moon to him, or how to step on the real moon?

[Sonia]

Gaining the ability to fly and becoming a dragon has nothing to do with the objectives of a snake. You leave the objectives of a snake far behind when you become a dragon.

Some people have gender disphoria. Can one without any experience of the disphoria, actually understand them? How would you explain a republican Christian the need to transition? They'd find it illogical to do so instead of lifting weights or wearing dresses.

How do you explain Vystopia to a butcher?

There is a container with water on it which has the reflection of the moon. Oshorobbins has stepped on it and claimed the realization of the Getsuga.
How do you explain the real size and distance of the moon to him, or how to step on the real moon?
Posted by: Sage | September 19, 2020 at 09:16 PM

😳 Are you spying on me? That was eerily completely relevant.

[Scott Fry]

Why does anyone sound surprised that any internal experiences below Mind and Maya are fictions of Mind and Maya? That is what we are taught. Faqir Chand said the same thing. That is the illusion the soul has to break through on the way to Reality. Now, having said that, I'm like Brian. Initiated by Charan since 1974, nada on ANY feed back that any of this is real, feeling left high and dry (what a chump I feel like). Charan deceived the tax man by having trusting satsangis haul his loot through customs, also had a penchant for collecting women's jewelry (what did he do with that jewelry. Is he like Bill Clinton in the blue dress?) And now Ranbaxy, helicopters, private jet, massive enlargement of Beas properties, Gurinder circulating through satsang crowds in a golf cart so everyone can see him...what the f**K?
There is ample evidence from Soami Bagh, the parent lineage of Beas that pretty much proves Jaimal was a fraud therefore the whole Beas line is a fraud. I can't speak to the other branches but Tharkar was a sex pervert and one of the other "gurus" went to prison for rape. It can be explained this way if anyone has a shred of belief left about spirituality. When the Supreme announced he was going to redeem souls from the creation Kal asked how he would do it. Supreme says through incarnation of myself or my sons. Kal says hold it right there. For every incarnation of you or a son, I will manifest a thousand. I haven't completely given up on the idea that there is a scheme to creation, but damn close. However, reading Phelp's Notes and the original Sar Bachan of Soamiji on the Soami Bagh website gives me pause to reconsider.

[San.D]

I feel like commenting after reading a few blogs here.

I've been meditating since childhood and have been initiated for 12 years now by a sant mat teacher. In this decade +, I have had deep meditation experiences, including going beyond ego and even experiencing death.

I love the line that it's about losing everything, including your own identity. My progression in my inner journey stopped when I couldn't leave my attachment behind, when I was dying or the world was dying to me. I also experience lucid dreams and sleep paralysis many times. I've experienced OOB moments multiple times. Ive seen "entities" too, though sparse (twice in my life).

Without reading this blog, I already came to the conclusion that the guru, a satguru etc. Is a dogma. But it's a dogma I understand, a dogma that is needed to overcome the ego. A nessecary dogma sort of speaking. This is because the power of devotion and believe is immensely powerful. As "rational" beings, you can not deny it. Through "believe" we human can achieve the unthinkable, we can reach the sky and beyond.

We are severely attached to the world, while becoming detached is the means of enlightenment or salvation. The path of the yogi, of pure discipline, is extremely hard. That is why the path of bhakti, or devotion, is seen as easier. Because through deep devotion you lose yourself, so you can overcome your ego.

True enlightenment or salvation (it at least the first major step) lies in becoming free of attachment, being free of attachment is in literal, you must die to the world. As long as you havent gone through this process, you remain in the world of ego. It doesn't matter, having a satguru or not, being initiated or not. We all must go through this process if we want to reach anything akin to "enlightenment".

Almost everything Sant Mat teaching told about the spiritual experience up until crossing the stars, sun etc. I can say it has been true. At the same time, all great yoga traditions have said the same things (including patanjali). Whatever is beyond that, I can not say. I feel not many can though. You need to die to reach the other shore.

Now bhakti, or devotion, which is the core of both the Gita as Sant Mat theology, is a very dangerous path because to whom do you devote to? Who actually is alive that is worth our devotion? That is the Sat guru role - even when in reality he is as human as you and me - it is the role he plays which makes it possible for the rest of us to use bhakti, or devotion, to overcome our attachment on earth. At the same time, the danger of blind devotion is obvious.

The great problem sadly about realizing these truths, without actually conquering your ego, is that it boasts your intellect and with that your ego. I think a lot of the "ex-satsangis" have fallen to this. They reached certain realization without gaining the ultimate one, which is dying while living and becoming fully detached from worldly life. How can bhakti work now that we have seen through the "con"? Even when realizing that the "con" is there for our own good!

It is not about satguru being perfect, it is the idea of him being perfect. It is about submission of the mind.

Unlike Brian, I do not have abbondoned this path but at the same time I never blindly followed it. I always followed my own inner path, what life is showing me directly. Everything else is "theory" and unless life shows me, it always remain "theory". I think that a lot of ex-satsangis made this mistake. They took unproven theory (and their own interpretation since it all gets filtered by subjective personality) for truth and got burned, without listening to their own intuition. This doesn't make the method given during imitation wrong though. It just means you shouldn't follow things blindly. In the end the path is individual. The time of following a guru is not now anymore in my opinion because the world has become to small for this. I think now is the time we follow our own intuition and find inspiration in all teachings, including Sant Mat. Becoming intiated now is a means to become determined to see your journey to an end, to end your bonds with the world we know, that is becoming detached.

That being said, I do not see the point of bashing or calling names. I wish those who mediate and try to accumulate "good" would stop doing so. There is nothing to gain there.