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September 22, 2020

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"But all of this takes place against a backdrop of an ordinary life. I feel a stronger kinship with other people, because I no longer identify with a religion that taught its devotees to feel special, being on a path to God-realization denied to others."

This resonates with me. Mostly, the part about; to feel special, being on a path to God-realization

As my life has contained gun shots at point blank range, being tied up by gangsters like the biker gangs, shootings at anti-gang for kids gatherings, white supremacy attacks in my neighborhood as a teenager, and
threats by cannibals who employed police.

So I didn't expect I'd live beyond 35. As back then the life expectancy for a black male was 34 and "if you made it to 35 you were a survivor" was the saying. And for me the claims of the Beas Gurus on striving for God-realization before death -well I had nothing to lose. That's my take on it.

Three years before I reached my life expectancy I was given a chance to try the Beas Guru's meditation as my search took me to numerous frauds. So I made it. Made it to something I think special, before I ended up like George Floyd, or before the police or the mean streets could kill me.

“ I feel deeply happy to have been deconverted from religious fantasies. No longer do I consider that there is a gap between what I should become and the reality of my present state of being.”

The notion that “there is something missing in me,” that “I am a sinner” or the Sant mat equivalent of “I am stuck in karma and need to meditate or I need grace to escape” - these are the notions that keep us trapped.

Religion first creates the trap by getting you to believe that you have missed the mark. Something is lacking.

Then religion offers you the solution to escape the trap.

Christianity: Jesus will save you
Sant mat: meditation and seva and grace (which strangely enough has to be earned) will save you.
Islam: god will ask you after death, and you must say “Allah is the only God and Mohammad his prophet”

Once the trap is set and you believe it, you are in a real trap.

It is a “construct”
YOU yourself created / constructed the trap by your beliefs.
You chose to believe, and once you believe, the trap is real.

The way to escape is to realise that you chose to believe when you were naive. Now choose to drop the same beliefs.

The problem is, you have fallen in love with the beliefs. You want to be the victim. The prison door is open but you like being in prison.

You say you want to escape, but why don’t you? The door is open.

A man was searching frantically for his train ticket. He searched every pocket again and again. The ticket collector was waiting. A fellow passenger spoke, “you have searched every pocket at least three times, but you have not looked in your shirt pocket even once”
“I know,” replied the man, “that is my last hope, and I don’t want to lose hope so I won’t check that pocket because if that pocket is empty, then I am truly doomed”

Followers are the same. They like being trapped while pretending to try to escape.
As long as there is hope and the possibility of escape, it keeps them going.
If I take away their trap, they will have nothing to strive for. They like to strive, to struggle.

The RSSB guru says “we are all struggling ......”

Then stop struggling. There is no need to struggle. They struggle is your own creation. There is no trap except the one you created in your own mind.

It is only your own belief that “I am not perfect yet” that has created the trap.

Stop seeking perfection (because it doesn’t exist) and the trap disappears.

Just as the wizard of oz loses his power the moment you can see that he is an ordinary man not a wizard

What you describe Brian is just a way of participating in any group in general....be a sport, music, school or whatever.

The amount of interest people have for what others have to say about ones participation, is divided along the usual gauss curve. Some are not interested at all and just do their thing and others are so afraid of reactions of others that they cannot perform properly.

One goes to an office to work, to earn some money for living ones own life. Sometimes the office becomes a place were the speaking of others and discussing their actions even in private life, the gossips, become more important than the work itself.

Some go to the church to pray for the welfare of the near and dear or the the whole world. Others go there for other reasons to be seen and sit in the front and discuss who is the best Christian.
The fact of the existence of this hypocrisy can not and should not be used an excuse to stay away ..

Even U G Krishnamurti was ordinary before he started busting bluff of Christian education system to create army of slaves for plutocratic Christendom to exploit ordinary Christians by giving them education system based on falsehood.

Wow, Karim, I never would have guessed you had experienced the sort of challenges you described in your life. You seem like a very disciplined person. See, this is where another type of prejudice comes in—I’m judging what I assume to be your life experiences based on how articulate and intelligent you are. I think people often judge others by the way they speak, dress and present themselves just as much and possibly more than by skin color.

Is your family Muslim?

“I get a lot of satisfaction from no longer believing that I'm on a special path that leads back to God.”

(Big fan of Garrison Keillor)

You should read ‘The Fine Art of Snobbery’ by David Taylor. He’s British. I guess in my book that makes him an expert on the subject (which is admittedly very prejudiced of me). Basically he describes how nearly everyone finds a way to make themselves feel more special than others by being a snob about something—anything. Some people are music snobs, foodie snobs, activist snobs, academic snobs and so on.

As for gurus, GSD said recently that “god” doesn’t love any single person more than another. He pointed out how ridiculous that belief is. He also said that any path has the potential to lead to self realization, it’s not exclusive to Sant Mat. When people ask him if they should marry a Satsangi he always says just marry a good human being and you’ll be happy, it doesn’t matter what path they follow.

Maybe some people feel “special” because of their faith but I never have. For me, belief in something greater than myself (in all of the different paths I’ve followed) was about hope—hope that one day suffering would end. Hope that there is a better world than this. Hope that something could make this world perfect. It was and is all about hope.

For most people, myself included, self righteousness and false humility are two of the biggest turn offs to spirituality.

We’re all ordinary. We’re all extraordinary. We’re all pretty much the same. God doesn’t punish us. God isn’t even a person or entity. It’s an all encompassing energy. What we actually dislike about this so called life are the negative experiences that result because of the Natural laws of cause and effect.

I’m not sure what the opposite of cause and effect is but I think it’s something along the lines of peace and joy.

@ Sant mat: meditation and seva and grace (which strangely enough
@ has to be earned) will save you.

Um, I agree if you're saying some Sant Mat followers have
created religious notions that meditation, seva, and earned
grace will save you. However, S.M. and mystics don't. It's
awareness that saves you. You've simply blinkered that
total awareness that is the core of your being.

The meditation, seva, the stage actor himself are props.
Mere trappings until your awareness is restored. You didn't
have to earn them at all. They were already yours. The
inner master, god himself, was there all along. The disciple
simply had to begin the inward search.

A child is given some toys and simple tasks to turn scattered
attention inward while the inner guru, which his real self by
the way, turns the lights on.

Is your family Muslim?

Posted by: Sonia | September 23, 2020 at 07:24 AM

I won't say much about my family as they converted from Christianity to Islam before I was born. But for me, Islam is the only religion I was graced with.

One thing interesting I'll gladly share, is that one of my older step brothers had six wives -he too was converted.

I’m not sure what the opposite of cause and effect is but I think it’s something along the lines of peace and joy.
Sonia

Yes I think so Sonia..I think thatś a truth..imo.

Babaji talks really different mostly then former guruś..
I learned in my early santmat years that ´Only this path´ could bring liberation from ´birth and dead´
Thatś about cause and effect over and over..
The old books and satsangs were full about that..
Only the Master could help one out this cycle..

Itś somewhat strange to see the vids from babaji..not knowing how things are going to be.
etc..

Dr. Michael Persinger, working at Laurentian University, in Sudbury, Ontario, Canada, has pioneered a method for inducing the religious, spiritual experience of the shaman. Without drugs, herbs, hypnosis or invasive surgery, he can quite literally flip a switch and induce the experience of "god."

Using an ordinary striped yellow motorcycle helmet, which he has modified with electromagnetic coils, he can place the helmet on your head, connect the wires to a device he has constructed that generates the proper signals, and when the magnetic fields produced by the coils penetrate the skull and into the temporal lobes of the brain, the result is the stimulation of those lobes and a religious experience results.

https://www.god-helmet.com/wp/shiva/index.htm

Osho Robbins - this is you right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50

The RSSB guru says “we are all struggling ......”
Then stop struggling.

You quote the RSSB guru a lot. Correct me if I am wrong but none of the RSSB gurus have any connection with you? I think you were initiated or just spent some time with Rajinder or Karpal or gurus of one of those offshoots of RSSB. You saw the light, probably 'jhanjari deep', the very elementary flash of Nirat that RSSB philosophy says is no more than a reflection of a reflection of the 1000 candles before Jot Niranjan. This is something gurus like Karpal and Ashutosh were doing a lot in the 80s and 90s to mesmerize people. But since you don't think such experiences matter, I reckon you don't chase the light or sound anymore?

Your experiences still seem far more exciting than most RSSB initiates. Your quest and curiosity is inspiring. May be you're the serious seeker. Puri tells a good story on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce5cOwhXxUE

I think in your posts, from what I understand, you've time and again said you don't need to 'do' anything. Doing is an illusion in an illusionary creation. Because you the doer are an illusion and so the act of doing is an illusion and the illusion itself is an illusion. Do you meditate? Or do you think there's no need to do anything? No need to experience? And with that logic, no need to do anything at all, like post videos, write views on a blog and so on - because the end goal is nothing? There's no such thing as a goal in fact?

@Brian, I find this site quite amusing to be honest and I actually like reading all this critics against RSSB. It does strengthen the already believe I have that a satguru isn't needed for spiritual progression, though a guru in a form of a teacher is another story.

What I don't get though, after meditating 35 years, how come you never experienced things you couldn't explain rationally? Affirmations of certain things?

It's like you went from a "cult" fanatic, to this very generic atheist 'i believe in science only' type of person. That transformation, from one extreme to the other! How?

Its the thing I don't get. Especially if you meditated for 35 years! Have you never experienced the state "beyond ego"? Because once you have, you KNOW, we as beings are not our personality, that personality is a strange layer on us, that is short sighted, self interested etc. The ability to look at events beyond ego, looking at your own life, at maybe certain crashes you have with other people, discussions etc. It gives SO MUCH clarity. The ability to stop looking through your own colored lens and REALLY understand the other person. And that is just ONE thing you can gain from meditation.

Its this what I don't understand. You should be a meditation adept. But somehow you went from 35 year long experienced yogi, to a middle aged generic atheist. Generic because certain things you say just feel so generic things how atheist think like, as if you went from one brainwashing to the other!

To add it it, I find going on this journey to be humbling more then anything. I know that RSSB satsangis tend to feel superior towards other, which I always felt misguided. I don't feel like I'm better then others. Hell, great part of my life I felt the opposite. Through meditation I came to accept a lot of my self, not being as successful in worldy affairs as I wished, not having the relationships I wanted etc. I learned to accept and go on, not to stick to old pains etc.

If anything, the spiritual journey have given me so many tools to coop with life and so made me stronger to deal with it.

Also certain experiences I have gotten...I can't deny it! Tears flowing from my eyes for this feeling of unconditional love was showering over me. The feeling of connectedness and completeness. To feel complete without having a reason. To feel happy by just "being", no external thing causing it. Just being!

What happened Brian? Why are our experiences so different on this path? I somehow feel pain thinking about your story. Why weren't you "blessed" with such experiences too? I can understand taking distances from gurus you felt weren't genuine but to fully step away from your inner journey and to actually go completely the other way around - becoming this atheist type of persona - the much mainstream way of modern thinking which feels really close minded to be honest. I feel confused! But I do enjoy this site, and I do enjoy the free speech here, to discuss and share our thoughts. If anything, you have blessed others through this site of yours.

@BrianJi (someone else - not Brian Hines)
Yes – that video is me from 2011. The RSSB gurus have a huge connection with me.
For one thing – I was initiated by Charan Singh Ji. Gurinder knows me pretty well as he recognises me as soon as I get to the mic and he pretty much agrees with most of what I say, with the exception of my views on non-effort, non-doing and the real meaning of meditation.
I didn’t just “See the light” – I spent many years in intense meditation, meditating 2-3 hours a day and full weekends also. When I was on that path of effort – I did it with full commitment. I didn’t take it lightly. I followed the other gurus because I wanted personal time and attention, not a ‘correspondence course’
I followed Thakar singh for a few years and then Darshan Singh. I don’t rate Rajindar Singh and never connected with him in any meaningful way. I saw him a few times, but no connection. Darshan Singh I was very close with. I used to write him poetry and read it to him. I spend a lot of time with him in Kirpal Ashram.
You completely mis-understand my point about non-doing. This was not some new belief that I acquired. It was a discovery that comes from the realization of ONENESS. In ONENESS there is no other, no me, nobody left to seek salvation. Realization is not an intellectual belief. It is a discovery. Only another who has discovered can understand. Everyone else will think it is a belief.
It is not that you don’t need to do anything. That is a mistaken notion. Clearly you and I are doing something every moment. I am writing these words this very moment.
I am not saying there is no need to do anything. I am saying:
It is IMPOSSIBLE to do anything because there is no YOU. No separate person.
Of course there APPEARS to be a ME and a YOU. I am not denying that – in fact I fully accept that.
I am saying – this YOU / ME is not ultimate reality (SACH).
Which Sach? The one nanak refers to: AAD Sach; JUGAAD Sach.
Nanak is saying only the ONE is called SACH – not duality. I am saying the same.
As long as you think there is a separate person or soul that needs salvation, you are deluded.
Only in that delusion will you meditate and make effort.
What are you making efforts towards?
The goal is already achieved. You are already ONE as you cannot be anything else.
You don’t reach ONENESS. – it is not a process.
These IS no YOU. If you understand those four words – everything changes.

I love how confused we get when we try to apply lofty platitudes to practical every day life.

“We’re all one”
“This world all an illusion”
“Nothing in this world is real”

Guess what, on the moon I weigh a whole lot less than I do here.

There’s a “heaviness” inside the body that you start to let go of in meditation.

It’s something you have to experience and then you’re like, wait a minute this is the real me. But while we’re in this life (on this planet) we have to obey the natural laws and not think that just because “we are all one” that we can go into our neighbors kitchen and start eating their food.

We have so much to learn about love. Whatever you think you know, there’s so much more. So, acknowledging our differences while respecting our interconnectedness is the most sane approach IMO.

Another fun fact, humans wouldn’t exist without insects. We’re literally dependent upon them for our survival. Just something to ponder... it’s humbling.


@Sonia
The people who say “we are all one” are those who don’t even understand ONENESS.
If you only understand, then yes you will be confused, because all you have is a concept.
If you understand gurbani, it’s explaining oneness.
e.g.
Paltu there is only ONE. There is no other.
Gurbani also makes it clear that no amount of effort will get you to truth because truth is to be discovered not achieved.
And gurbani does not advocate meditation either. If you look at every reference to NAAM, it says “contemplate, think about, sing the glories, ponder, or do dhyan”
What all means is not “sit down and repeat words” which the gurbani specifically addresses and says is NOT the way.
Neither is paath (repeating scriptures) the way.
Gurbani says “think deeply about” or
“Go to a brahm gyani and discuss with him the real path to truth”
There is and never has been an “initiation” as such.
The idea is flawed and GSD now downplays it.
After two decades of meditation I met such a brahm gyani who said “you have misunderstood everything. You are not separate from the ONE, because you are not the body and you are not a soul. You don’t even exist. A body exists, but it is not “you”
I never understood. It took many years of spending time with him and listening and asking stupid questions before it began to dawn on me what we was actually saying.
Discovery followed by itself with no effort.
Just as the Buddha got enlightenment without any effort. The effort was only done while deluded and while the person thinks that “I am a separate soul and I need salvation”

@sonia
There is nothing to learn about love at all.
How can you learn about something you cannot even define?
It’s like saying “we have so much to learn about god”
It would be more accurate to say “there is so much we need to experience about love”
And if you try to explain what you have experienced about love, it will fall on deaf ears because the person listening cannot gets it through words.

Words, at best, are a map, but the map is not the territory. Just like the menu is not the food.
There is a book called “never mistake a memo for reality”
We are always mistaking a memo, a concept and words for the thing itself.
Hence we mistake intellectual understanding for realisation.
Realisation happens after intellectual understanding. It’s when the understanding becomes “real”
When it’s more than just words. It’s when you suddenly “get it”
And you can’t explain what you got.
There is a part in a movie about this.
The person asks “but what is IT? and how will I know if I have got it?”
The trainer replies “you will know”
It’s from a training in the 70’s called “Est”

I just found a video of the key parts Of the movie I mentioned is my comment above.
https://youtu.be/T5XYNQv6F_o

@ Osho ... the very fact that in the Granth, meditation etc is not addressed, doesn't mean everything.

Nanak and his successors, had great mystics of those days say their say in the Granth, mystics that all speak of repeating the name of the lord etc.

Not all that partakes to a path is written down.

@Osho and Oneness Devotees,.....
I’ve come to the conclusion that,.....Astral Projection, or inducing out of body experiences, is expansion of Awareness exercises. But Meditation is reversing the Journey, because it induces retraction of Awareness back from all of the past expansion of Awareness , that all material IMPERMANENT forms appeared, including all of our past life physical bodies. Meditation exercises seeks to withdraw Awareness and Consciousness from all impermanent forms, back to the soul, or God Spirit residing in all of us. But that God Spirit is not God in Totality, because if it is, than God would be continuously changing , as each individual soul returns to the ONLY ONE, WHO created us all. God never changes. But every soul that returns to be WITH The ONE, but never becomes The One,.......never changes the Content of The One, by Dumping Duality experiences back in to The One.

Jim Sutherland

@um
What do you think "repeating the name of the lord" means?

You have a name, I have a name and a pseudo name too.

God has no name for one really good reason.

There is nobody to differentiate him from.

God has no name so what name are you going to repeat?

Gurbani specifically says
"Ram Ram sab koi kahin (everyone says Ram, Ram (God, God))
Kahin Ram na hoi (By saying the word Ram, God does not come)
Gur prasadi Ram man vasi than phal pavin koi
(By GRACE Ram will RESIDE in your mind - then you will get the result)

God is not a being or a person. He has no ears and cannot hear you.
He has no eyes he cannot see you
He has no mind - he cannot judge you

you have made your god in your own image

@Osho

If understanding brings realisation, have you realised ?
If not then what exactly you are explaining here ?

One reference where GSD downplays the importance of Simran and Bhajan ?
In every QnA, 90% of His answers are just about attending to the meditation and doing your Simran and Bhajan.

Also He clarifies many times Simran is only to bring back the lost concentration, real thing is Bhajan i.e. listening to the sound current and that's what Gurubani is saying all over... listening to Naam - that's Bhajan.

If you agree that you completely misunderstood all the Sant Mat, what is the guarantee you understood that Gyani correctly this time ? Because the Gyani said so ?
Maybe you've misunderstood everything even more than ever !!

I agree that for experiencing One, we should NOT do anything.
But the thing is that it's so difficult to NOT do anything. (try not to think of a pigeon)
Meditation is all about achieving that mental state of NOT doing anything,
the state of Thoughtlessness.

@ And gurbani does not advocate meditation either. If you look at every
@ reference to NAAM, it says “contemplate, think about, sing the glories,
@ ponder, or do dhyan”

I agree rote repetition of words is not the rabbit's foot that
fuels enlightenment. "Contemplate, sing, ponder, do dhyan"
is prescriptive as well. It simply replaces one set of words
with another.

Yet mantra is a key part of mysticism. So is effort! Immersed
in duality/illusion, words and concepts are all we have in the
beginning. They are the child's toys and are essential to
growth. The real magic though is ineffable and it comes from
the love at the core of our consciousness.

It's a mystery beyond words and language and can only be
hinted at. But you start with illusion and progress beyond it with
the help of the Friend within.

@ Osho You wrote that Nanak didn't write about meditation and the repetition of names.

But the whole sant traditions stands on the teachings of kabir etc ... saints that are all included in the Granth, sainst that, without exception, proclaim the repetition of the lords name.

And ... it is my personal understanding that the five names in fact answer the question: "who am i"
Unfortunately I don speak Hindi and do not know the meaning of the pre-fixes and suffixes used in the different words.

Further, the path that the saints took was that of shabd, listening to it will bring the listener to its origin, where it disappears ... and the state of A-nami is reached.

And ... in old days the yoga had to be explained in language and concepts that the people were familiar with. For me the mystics face the same problem as a tribes man from the Amazon has to explain the gadgets of western life in means of transport and communication, to his fellow tribes men. He has, to use the language that originated in the Amazon. So to me the whole story told by kabir etc is a way of speaking.

In the end sant mat is noting more and nothing less than an INVITATION to have a look inside, the invitation itself is just an means to an end. ... imo

@one-initiated.
please read what I wrote.
here it is again for your reference:
"There is and never has been an “initiation” as such.
The idea is flawed and GSD now downplays it. "

WHAT does he downplay? Initiation
lots of examples of it - in the recorded Q&A also

so you wrote:
"One reference where GSD downplays the importance of Simran and Bhajan ?"

That was not what I said - in fact I made it clear that it is the one area we do NOT agree on.

You then write
"I agree that for experiencing One, we should NOT do anything."

if you agree - then why would you meditate?
clearly meditating is a DOING.

You then write
"Meditation is all about achieving that mental state of NOT doing anything,
the state of Thoughtlessness."

does everything require a thought?
can you do anything without having a thought of doing it first?

Let's say you decide to meditate.
first you have a thought "I am going to meditate"
then you act on it and sit down to meditate.
then you have a thought "It must be two hours by now"
so you check and you're right.
so now you have a thought "I will stop meditating now"
so you get up and stop meditating.

Now you want to STOP all thought (state of thoughtlessness)
so first you have a thought to say
"I want to stop all thoughts"
Let's just say you succeed.
So now all thoughts have STOPPED.
No more thoughts. NONE.

so can you tell me how you will RESTART the thoughts again?
All thoughts have STOPPED - so no more thoughts can arise.

now you need a thought that says "I want to restart the mind to think again"
but you can't because all thoughts have stopped.

if everything needs a thought first then
"please restart the thinking process" also requires a thought

where will that thought come from if thoughts have stopped?

How will you return from the zombie like state of thoughtlessness?

You cannot

What this proves is that thoughts CANNOT be stopped and it's just as well
because if they DID stop, they will never restart.

So save yourself the effort - you will never stop thoughts

@ And Osho

I also personaly believe that the 5 words mimic the sounds in the same way as one creates a sound on the named instruments .... first the instrument is hit and later follows the reverberation.
Al words are in 2 parts that mimic that action.

I have the feeling that the whole thing is more technical than they ever speak about. In the end the practice is a technical manipulation of the body/brain machine ... maybe sophisticated.

@sonia
There is nothing to learn about love at all.
How can you learn about something you cannot even define?
It’s like saying “we have so much to learn about god”
It would be more accurate to say “there is so much we need to experience about love”
And if you try to explain what you have experienced about love, it will fall on deaf ears because the person listening cannot gets it through words.....

Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 26, 2020 at 02:08 AM

Hey Osho,

What I meant was, as we grow and experience more we are able to bring some of those abstract spiritual concepts into words. It doesn’t completely explain explain the experience but it does help society evolve.

A lot of things have changed just in my lifetime. When I was a child most Christian churches preached about an eternal hell. Now, none of them do. Well, the large majority don’t talk about it. It’s like at some point in recent history humans realized how savagely mad and insane it it is to believe that even the worst of human beings would be tormented forever.

And the Catholic Church just did away with purgatory (which is sort of funny).

But a lot of changes in the world’s religious and spiritual groups are pointing closer to Oneness. People are much more tolerant on a lot of things.

However, the thing that is literally killing us right now is our relationship with nature and the way we disrespect the earth and especially the animals.

Latif Nasser does a good job in the new Netflix docuseries on Connectedness. It’s all nature and science and it is absolutely fascinating. https://www.netflix.com/title/81031737

When you look at how we treat our planet and other species today, it’s like people totally don’t get what an ecosystem is. This is basic stuff. We are all connected and completely interdependent. But we’re trying to stay separate and act tribal. That’s the opposite of love.

@Osho (someone else - not the famous Osho).

You say "The goal is already achieved. You are already ONE as you cannot be anything else.
You don’t reach ONENESS. – it is not a process. These IS no YOU. If you understand those four words – everything changes."

Your understanding after all these years is good as long as it helps you and makes you happy.

So if you were initiated by Huzur, and so was I, and you're already ONE with him, with that logic, I must be too, so you and I are also ONE. Which isn't the case - I am sure you think it is though.

Sant Mat philosophy says we evolve across 8.4 million species (lakh chausassi) to become human. You interpret and quote the Gurbani in your own way. I don't blame you, Many including Sikhs do that. But what about Sar Bachan, what about works of Kabir and other sages? Let's quote the Gurbani: it says "bhai parapt manukh dehariya, gobind milan ki eh teri bariya. Awar kaaj tere kiteyi na kam, mil sadh sangat, bhaj kewal nam". You've gotten the human form, this is your time to find a sant, and follow / contemplate on Nam.

So it is a process. Like everything else in the physical, astral and causal planes. Whether you believe it or not.

If my dad owns a corporation, I am already the successor, generally. And I don't have to do anything to inherit it. But I still must do something. If I just lay there in bed I'll become a vegetable. I have to learn to talk, walk, go through 15 years of schooling and so on. Then I can become a director in that corporation and inherit it. If I just sit there like you - thinking I am already IT, I am deluded.

Let's say I am your trainer. I show you how to do an overhead shoulder press up with a 60 lbs barbell and tell you you can do it too, I am not lying. If you build the strength you can do it too, and I'll tell you a routine that you can follow to build that strength (diet, exercise, posture, repetition etc.). But if you then go to 10 other trainers, who will tell you the same thing, and then still come up with a theory of your own and start thinking you are already capable of lifting it and don't have to anything, you're mistaken. I can spot you, but while you're holding the 60 lbs barbell over your head, I am the one lifting it. The moment I let go, you'll crush under the weight and snap your neck. If you don't want to know what it feels like to hold a 60lbs barbell over your head, you don't have to do anything, but if you do, you'll have to build the strength to be able to lift. Start with a 10 lbs, then 20 and then gradually you'll be able to do it. It is a process.

Same is the case with the evolution of consciousness from lower stages to higher, from Bhog juni to Karam juni. If your master took your consciousness to Bhanwar Gupha, you won't be able to handle it. You can;t withstand the sound current's force. You must become pure, go through the stages of exfoliating layers of mind and maya, and become that pure spirit to travel through those regions. Let's ignore the regions, say, to become ONE.

Your Master Charan Singh said you won't get anything from jumping from one thing to another. During your days (80s at least) you could write as many letters as you wanted, or just meet him. You don't really need to be physically around the master - you already have him in you. So I am not sure what you mean by a correspondence course and why you felt the need to meet with other sages, though there's nothing wrong in doing it, you're just wasting time. They were not going to tell you anything new.

All RSSB masters including Charan singh Ji and GSD time and again have emphasized - do your meditation as a duty, that's all. They're never said you are already ONE and you can ignore your mediation (orientating the mind). But you dont have to agree with GSD, just like others on this thread have to agree with your comments and YouTube videos.

So here's what I gather - you no longer meditate because you think you're already ONE. If that belief satisfies you, good for you.

Joy is extraordinary.
It's all we are, under all the layers.

Chip away what isn't happy within yourself, and all that is left is happiness. It's already there.

Once you understand that it is all inside you, you have your chisel.

"So if you were initiated by Huzur, and so was I, and you're already ONE with him, with that logic, I must be too, so you and I are also ONE. Which isn't the case - I am sure you think it is though." - Brian Ji

Right off the bat - you are stuck in concepts.
ONE with WHO?
You or I cannot be ONE with anything or anyone.
That is a misunderstanding of the meaning of ONE.

ONE means ONE. not two. No hazur, no YOU and no ME!
you are starting with duality and somehow thinking duality will end in ONENESS.

Duality is MAYA - illusion. This is not rocket science.
We all know that everything here will END.
anything that ends is maya and illusion and unreal in that sense.

The real is that which does not end.

you cannot be ONE with that, because only the ONE IS.
nothing else is. No YOU - so who exactly do you think is going to join with the ONE?
There is nothing except the ONE. no merging is possible and there is nobody who can
merge.
ONENESS and DUALITY are different modes of reality. There is no connection.
If you are in duality - you are unreal and will NEVER merge with the ONE.
there is no merging - no process - no achievement.

The ONE simply IS. nothing else is

@Brian Ji,

Good explanation--good examples. Sometimes teaching involves a lot more than just saying do this or do that. Proper teaching requires explaining, describing, analyzing, comparing. Critical thinking. It's best not to oversimplify a critical lesson by saying just do this or just do that. It needs to be explained more in depth--more analogies, more examples for the student to understand the need to follow a particular practice--especially any practice that requires a commitment of 2.5 hours every single day for the rests of your life. Nobody even goes to the gym that much--nobody. Well, maybe an Olympic athlete.

If I'm a nutrition teacher and I say you need to eat these types of foods for optimal health but I never explain in detail why or how or what... if I don't explain the biology behind it or the effects of proper nutrition vs bad nutrition on the body, or the right kinds of foods and why those foods are considered good, and why certain foods are considered unhealthy, then I'm not a teacher I'm just acting like a parent. The teaching process is critical. People can't become CEO's of an organization without a higher education. You graduate with your MBA or PhD and then you have to go to work at a company and work your way up through your profession until one day you become a CEO. But you have to get your degree before you can begin working (working is meditation in this analogy).

The outward guru is the professor that helps you get the education you need to get your degree. The inner master helps you as you enter your career and guides you as you climb the ladder to success.

" ..........If you don't want to know what it feels like to hold a 60lbs barbell over your head, you don't have to do anything, but if you do, you'll have to build the strength to be able to lift. Start with a 10 lbs, then 20 and then gradually you'll be able to do it. It is a process." - Brian Ji

Yes - I agree - everything you want to achieve in life is a process and requires effort. When did I ever say it doesn't?

However - and this is the point - GOD is not a thing to achieve.
if God was a thing - and you achieved him - you WIN and become greater than god.
By your efforts you achieve god - and so you are greater.

Gurbani constantly refers to the ego - haumi.
and all doing / effort comes from ego. The Doer
so how can doing be the way?

take this scripture:
As long as I think I am the doer - there is no peace
as long as he thinks he is the doer - he will stay in birth and death
jab tak jaani mujse kush hoi.......

anything in the world has to be achieved
but god is different - god cannot be a decoration for your ego

"RSSB masters including Charan singh Ji and GSD time and again have emphasized - do your meditation as a duty, that's all. They're never said you are already ONE" - Brian Ji

Hmmm....
have you heard the videos?
I will make it easy for you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dWAkmCmzAc&t=403s
4:40 (4 mins and 40 secs in.....)
a certain separation is being FELT
mind you I say FELT because THE SEPARATION IS NOT THERE

Now stop and ask yourself what he just said
he just said "THERE IS NO SEPARATION."

then he says a little later
"WE DONT HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE. WE DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING"
cant be any clearer than that!

of course "doing ........" includes meditation

we have created the separation because we have separate physical bodies
so we think we have separate souls and are separate from God.

Once you have realised this - there is no need for anything else

but it's NOT a belief - it's a realisation that comes from within

he goes on to say
"The separation is in our MINDSET"

There is no "GOING BACK to God...."
"There is no ACHIEVING"

Now - will you contradict what your own guru has just told you?
will you look for a loophole?

will you say..... "Yes..... But....."

that is why you need a the physical guru
that is why a correspondence course will not do.
because you will continue as you are
you will not listen - you will listen only to your own mind
and to your own beliefs

hence progress cannot be made - ever

unless you have a guru who pushes you - beyond your limits
mere talk or Q&A will do nothing

as I have just shown.
GSD has made it clear but NOBODY hears him
because they dont want to - they have their own beliefs


@BrianJi
this is why you need a physical guru and his company and he has to be a certain type of guru

Ramakrishna says there are 4 types of guru - compares them to 4 types of doctor
1. the one who gives you a prescription - just a paper - you dont even see the medicine
2. he gets the medicine and hands it to you
3. he even pours the medicine in a spoon for you and hands it to you
4. he puts you on the ground and sits on you and pours the medicine into your mouth

number 4 is the only one that gets results. the others are for disciples who are just playing - not serious

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8

When I used to be a speaker back in 2000 and before - i did this satsang in Birmingham.
if you listen to it (this is part 2) - about 9.5 mins in - I am going into detail on the EGO and why it is the only barrier - I quote lots of scriptures - more than I can write here

This was a RSSB official satsang when I was an official speaker.
I quit because of prejudices in the management - they dont like anyone who is not part of their group to get well known. The same reason that I was punched in the face and assaulted. Not the behaviour of people who are on a spiritual path

"Same is the case with the evolution of consciousness from lower stages to higher, from Bhog juni to Karam juni. If your master took your consciousness to Bhanwar Gupha, you won't be able to handle it. You can;t withstand the sound current's force. You must become pure, go through the stages of exfoliating layers of mind and maya, and become that pure spirit to travel through those regions. Let's ignore the regions, say, to become ONE." - BrianJi

These are just BELIEFS - you have READ IN BOOKS.
Your guru has said many many times - even to me directly - "There are NO REGIONS"

I said "But the books say....."
he interrupted me.......
"BURN THE BOOKS".......
this is the current guru saying this in public and still you remain in delusion.

this is why you need a guru of the 4th type

the same talk I gave in 2002.......
back then this was all new and nobody even agreed with it
nevertheless - I said all this in a public satsang on the RSSB stage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwTQiZb_8z
21.5 mins in - I give example after example.

at the end of the talk - more than half the sangat was touched and came to speak to me - telling me they were inspired and asking when is my next talk

the satsang convenor however was busy trying to stop my talks because it was creating too much interest
because the truth was - I was not speaking - I had no rehearsal - it was just happening by itself - flowing and that is why it touched so many people - there was nobody doing the satsang

@BrianJi
gurus on he whole utterly fail to get results.
I mentioned this video earlier
this is the reason why gurus fail to get results
it's too passive - too laid back - just pleasant theories

compare this to what is happening in the vide

https://youtu.be/T5XYNQv6F_o

this is how the training actually begins:

"I AM YOUR TRAINER," be continues in his intense, penetrating voice, "AND YOU ARE THE TRAINEES. I AM HERE BECAUSE MY LIFE WORKS AND YOU ARE HERE BECAUSE YOUR LIVES DON'T WORK."

"Your lives don't work," he goes on firmly. "You have great theories about life, impressive ideas, intelligent belief systems. You are all very reasonable in the way you handle life, and your lives don't work. You're assholes. No more, no less. And a world of assholes doesn't work. The world doesn't work. just look at your own fucking lives and you know they don't work. You've paid two hundred and fifty dollars to take this training so your lives will work, and you'll spend most of the next ten days doing everything you can to make the training not work, so your lives can go on peacefully not working. You've just paid two hundred and fifty dollars to be here and you'll get nothing from this training."


@ compare this to what is happening in the vide

Ah, nothing like a "scared spiritual" beatdown to set a sinner
straight:

........
Baba: Alright, you a-holes, there's only "The One", get it?

Disciple: How much meditation does it take?

Baba: Take, Take! ? Haven't you been listening!?". There is no
"T" in "ONE". You are already immersed in the One. No effort. No
journey. And, remember, there are no regions, and you can burn
the books!

Disciple: But, GuruJi, I really have to pee now. Can I at least try to
walk to the bathroom? It's probably just a random thought but I'm
having no luck staying in the One!

Baba: You don't "stay" in the One. You're never apart from it. Sit
quietly! The sweet wave of the One will caress you in her arms.
Impurities will wash away.

Disciple: You're right, you're right. I feel it, I feel it calling me. It's
faint... but it's saying: "You need to honor thy inner guru. Be free
of the prison." [Psst, it's down the hall on the right]

"Your Master Charan Singh said you won't get anything from jumping from one thing to another. During your days (80s at least) you could write as many letters as you wanted, or just meet him. You don't really need to be physically around the master - you already have him in you. So I am not sure what you mean by a correspondence course and why you felt the need to meet with other sages, though there's nothing wrong in doing it, you're just wasting time. They were not going to tell you anything new. " - BrianJi

Writing a letter is exactly what I mean by a 'correspondence course'
A letter is correspondence.

So how many people do you know who converse daily with the radiant form of the master? do you?

just because you read it in a book doesn't make it true.

And for the record - they DID tell me something new. I would still be a blind follower if I took your advice and stayed put.

this is what a belief is. you have been told, there is nothing else to learn - but its not true. each guru was relevant to me according to where I was on my journey.

The buddha had many gurus.

I think meditation is about experiencing yourself as you are—not in this human body with all of this grossness... heaviness. Right? This body isn’t who we really are. That’s the whole point. And outside this prison is your true self. Without experiencing your true self, your mind is far more likely to return to what it knows (the physical) in your next life.

@Osho
You said, "So save yourself the effort - you will never stop thoughts."

Actually, it is quite easy for you to stop thinking.
“You” is a creation of thought. When “you” is seen as a false construct, then “you” have stopped thinking.

Thinking may continue but there is no “you” doing it. There is only thinking. When there is only thinking and no you, then it could be said that “you have stopped thinking.”

@Osho,
As far as this “there are no regions,” idea. From a certain point of view, there are no regions. It is sort of like this. I could say there is no taste of chocolate. In a certain sense that is true, there is no chocolate, there is only consciousness. Consciousness can experience itself as chocolate, as a boat, as a table, as headphones. There are no headphones, there is only consciousness.

In that sense there are no regions, there is only consciousness.

But of course while it is true that there is nothing but consciousness, it is also true that there is chocolate, boats, headphones, countries, inner regions and energies.

There are, but there aren’t.

"In that sense there are no regions, there is only consciousness.
But of course while it is true that there is nothing but consciousness, it is also true that there is chocolate, boats, headphones, countries, inner regions and energies.
There are, but there aren’t." - 271 Days Left

No - not in that sense. There are no regions. Period.

Just like if you experience a unicorn in a dream. there is no unicorn. you made it up. it was a dream character. there is no unicorn. period.

in the same way - regions and whatever you experience is made up by your mind.

including the radiant form of the master.

Faqir chand said he went to anami desh
then he also says the truth
there are no regions and nowhere to go
it was all a delusion
a creation of the mind


"You said, "So save yourself the effort - you will never stop thoughts."
Actually, it is quite easy for you to stop thinking.
“You” is a creation of thought. When “you” is seen as a false construct, then “you” have stopped thinking.
Thinking may continue but there is no “you” doing it. There is only thinking. When there is only thinking and no you, then it could be said that “you have stopped thinking.”"
- 271 days left

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying.
But you have gone beyond thought, not stopped it.

even to say what I have just written is inaccurate
as there is no "me" to go beyond thought

Nanak says: "whatever you say, you will regret" because nothing can be said

@Dungeness

if only that was how all the Q&A went!

instead they just play with concepts

drop the fucking concepts

drop the bullshit

drop the "I am trying, baba ji"

there is "DO" and "Don't Do" there is no try

The Q&A at least reveals ONE THING very clearly

after decades of meditation and satsang - the followers still have NO CLUE

they need an award for that


@Osho, I see your experiences, beliefs and ‘prejudices’ have come from many years of searching, analyzing and perhaps even ‘experiencing’ and I do like reading your perspective. It could be as flawed as my own, or as sound.

You’re taking sentences out of my text, breaking them into parts, and extrapolating some context out of one part. I said there’s nothing wrong in seeing other masters – Sawan Singh’s initiate and later successor, Jagat Singh was good friends with Faqir Chand, Sawan regarded Soami Ji’s brother Chacha ji highly and so on. If you learned something from those gurus, it was worth it.

“Writing a letter is exactly what I mean by a ‘correspondence course'. A letter is correspondence”. If you read Spiritual Gems, you’ll see how American disciples who’d never seen Great Master Sawan Singh were making inner progress. While many people living at the Dera, including Bibi Rukko, failed to even recognize Sawan as Jaimal’s successor. She left the Dera and went back to Agra.

I said ignore the regions, let’s say ONE. And you said there are no regions. I knew you’d say that which is why I said ignore that. But 271 days does a good job explaining that.

I have a dream and my experience is real at the time. I even recall it after I wake up. But dream is a state of sub-conciseness, grosser than the consciousness state and a mere fallacy from a higher superconscious state of mind. So if I have a dream, I can say I didn’t have a dream because there’s no such thing as a dream from a higher level of consciousness. But I did have a dream. I am sure you’ve had dreams too. You can experience it so it does exist, but as you go to a higher level of consciousness, in state of being awake – a consciousness state – it seems like fuzzy logic.

I know GSD said there are no regions, and even said there is no Kal.

Your idea of ONE is not the same as So-hung, (so am I, I have merged, I am not I) the fourth region. Well clearly not because regions don’t exist.

You still haven’t answered, do you mediate?

I am just trying to understand how you became ONE or came to that realization, I should say. Because I know you’ll say you didn’t become one because there never was a Duality. But does that mean that everyone is already one? Tepper, Taylor, Dungeness, Hines, Um, Manoj, Slayer, I and my pet – everyone’s ONE… already… as long as we believe it? There’s no evolutionary journey?

Osho you then say - ‘So how many people do you know who converse daily with the radiant form of the master?’

I have had opportunities to meet with many such people at the Dera. When I was a critic, I thought those guys were lunatics. That the sound was simply blood gushing through the head and Science of Soul was just a bait to lure intellectuals like me.

‘Do you?’ – before I got initiated I was once sat in ‘blank meditation’. This wasn’t lucid dreaming. I saw a Sikh man who resembled GSD but he was slender, kind of mean looking. As he came closer I thought to myself – that doesn’t look like Babaji. The moment I said that this thing suddenly came flying toward my face at 90 miles an hour and came close and stood a few inches away from my face. I was looking and his turban unfolded anticlockwise, his hairs stood straight up 2 feet high and split in half. The beard opened up and split in half the same way downward. I wasn’t scared, though I did flinch. I ended up getting initiated. Clearly it wasn’t GSD but at least I was pulled.

I spent my first few years in intense mediation. Since getting initiated I have only seen GSD inside once, it hardly lasted 5 seconds and there were no words said. I was wondering what language our dialogue was going to be. But it never happened. No luck since. But once you’ve seen it, you know it’s real, they’re not telling you porkies.

I just know that the outer GSD is not aware of it. He does too. He just doesn’t say it openly like Faqir Chand could. Though he does say it if you listen closely. Just not as clearly, not sure why. But we shouldn’t care should we? We’re only concerned with the inner.

@Osho, you say - he just said "THERE IS NO SEPARATION."
then he says a little later "WE DONT HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE. WE DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING" cant be any clearer than that!
of course "doing ........" includes meditation
It’s interesting how we’re both listening to the same thing yet I interpret it in a completely different way than you.
You’re hearing this as – “you don’t have to do anything; you don’t have to do your meditation”.
I hear this as – “you don’t have to do anything, other than what you’ve been told to do, which is your meditation”

One of the four tenets of initiation, and the most important one, was attending to your daily 2.45 hours of meditation.
Now what is meditation? It’s not trying to go through the stages or catching the sound or seeing the light. Surat and Nirat - those are things you will experience as part of your evolution, some may some may not while in the body. If I take the train from Salford Crescent station to Middleton, while you board from Gillingham to Waterloo, we won’t cross the same stations. We can carry on arguing how the places you’re describing are different from what I am describing so either I am wring or you are.
But meditation isn’t experiencing inner progress – which is what seekers chase and feel disappointed after a few years. It is attaching yourself to that higher ‘being’ which you are part of anyway (ONENESS) but you are stuck in the SEPARATION of mind and maya.

You saying you are already one isn’t wrong. But it is like saying that that plank of wood over there is light and fire. Yes it is, but it must undergo a process to be light and fire – that process is combustion. It also needs an apparatus (ignition etc.) and the right conditions (oxygen etc.) And then it’ll become fire – you’ll feel the heat, you’ll see the light in the fire. So though it is full of light and fire, it hasn’t yet become.

@Osho,
You said basically: If you experience a unicorn in a dream there is no unicorn, it is made up by your own mind.
So true. Chocolate, boats, headphones, are also only made up by your own mind. Without a mind these things have never been experienced. They are only made up by the mind in the same way dream appearances are.

You cannot authoritatively say there are no regions beyond the mind just because you have not experienced them. What you can truthfully say is you have not experienced them, not that they don’t exist or cannot exist. In this same way a man who says New York doesn’t exist because he’s never been there is deluded.

Permanent regions are not something only in sant mat. Buddha too talked about a nirvanic region:
“There is that sphere, monks,
where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air,
no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness,
no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.


There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.

It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,
just this is the end of suffering.”


Maybe you haven’t been to that sphere that Buddha mentions but it is a step beyond to tell Buddha he hasn’t been there and doesn't know what he's talking about. :)

You said basically: If you experience a unicorn in a dream there is no unicorn, it is made up by your own mind.
So true. Chocolate, boats, headphones, are also only made up by your own mind. Without a mind these things have never been experienced. They are only made up by the mind in the same way dream appearances are.


No – there is a big difference. The unicorn exists ONLY in your dream – not in the outside world.
The chocs, boats etc exist in the outside world.
You cannot compare the two and say they are the same.


You cannot authoritatively say there are no regions beyond the mind just because you have not experienced them. What you can truthfully say is you have not experienced them, not that they don’t exist or cannot exist. In this same way a man who says New York doesn’t exist because he’s never been there is deluded.

No – again – you are completely off the mark. I HAVE experienced them. I HAVE also experienced the radiant form of the master, yet I am saying – they are both creations of the mind – they don’t exist anywhere – they are made up. Fiction.
Besides – your guru says there are no regions – so take it up with him.
What do you think “There is nowhere to go” means? It means no regions.
And this is exactly why you need a guru of the 4th type who will not ALLOW you to continue in your delusions.
I was with such a master – Mikaire.
He would SHOUT at people – they would be trembling in his presence – but they know he is not angry
Just real. He gets you to face the truth.
I did a four day intensive with him that was totally amazing. It was how I got the realizations.
Realizations don’t come in meditation because you are listening to your own mind which is the root of the delusion.
How can your own mind set you free? It is the trap!
This is why you need a guru of the 4th type who will not put up with your bullshit.
And you need trust and love. Otherwise you cannot remain in his company


Permanent regions are not something only in sant mat. Buddha too talked about a nirvanic region:
“There is that sphere, monks,
where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air,
no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness,
no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.

There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.
It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,
just this is the end of suffering.”
Maybe you haven’t been to that sphere that Buddha mentions but it is a step beyond to tell Buddha he hasn’t been there and doesn't know what he's talking about. :)


Amazing. Of course I have been to that sphere. That is my home. That is where I live.
That is not a region. Where do you get a “region” from that description.
He is talking about NON-DUALITY or ONENESS.
Neither perception nor non-perception.
And you interpret that to be a region.
More proof you need a guru of the 4th type urgently


@ Just like if you experience a unicorn in a dream. there is no unicorn. you made it up.
@ it was a dream character. there is no unicorn. period.

Again though, that misses the point. However ephemeral and
"made up", a unicorn still existed for you in that moment. It was
real. Others can confirm the unicorn sighting even if internally
you doubt its reality. Maybe you have an intuitive flash that it's
all a dream. You tell the person beside you "Nah, I think we're
both just dreaming."

On waking, you find the unicorn wasn't real. Neither was the
person beside you. You spoke a partial truth without really
understanding it fully. You suspected the unicorn but not the
the other person in the dream.

In the same way, we're conversing with real people, not
shadows on the blog. A blog audience is just as substantial
as the unicorn spectator in our dream. On waking to fuller
understanding, we know they existed only during our dream.

Chattering hollowly that there's only "Oneness" only reveals
we don't understand our dilemma in this creation. Those
conversations we carry on with each other are indeed real.
Pain, confusion, betrayal, friendship, love, awakening... it's
all real to us at our level of understanding.

Someone at our level with a complete understanding of
Oneness can help us though. They can babble with us
about the nature of unicorns and, more seriously, a method
to awaken. Offer meditative tools to retrace our steps home.
Tell us how to get past the prison guards. Describe glorious
regions beyond the cell walls. For some they're are far more
accessible than the run-of-the-mill phantoms prisoners see.

@BrianJi

"It’s interesting how we’re both listening to the same thing yet I interpret it in a completely different way than you.
You’re hearing this as – “you don’t have to do anything; you don’t have to do your meditation”.
I hear this as – “you don’t have to do anything, other than what you’ve been told to do, which is your meditation” - BrianJi

STOP - and listen.
read each word.
forget the past and what he said before.
YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. PERIOD.

tell me : and answer very carefully not like a robot.
Is meditation a DOING?

if is IS - then GSD just told blatant LIE!

There is no way around this.

Unless of course you just interpret words in any way you choose (which is what all the followers do)

if meditation IS required
then
He CANNOT - I repeat - CANNOT - say
"There is nothing to do"
and if he DOES say that he has to IMMEDIATELY qualify it by saying "EXCEPT MEDITATION"

but he didn't.

in fact - do yourself a BIG favour and go listen again
you just might get it.

He keeps on saying "You are ALREADY there"

Why would he say that if is was not true?

also understand this:
If you are ALREADY there then is there anywhere else to go?

"You saying you are already one isn’t wrong. But it is like saying that that plank of wood over there is light and fire. Yes it is, but it must undergo a process to be light and fire" - Brian Ji

This is what I mean about UNDERSTANDING being the first step

right now you don't understand - so the chance of realization happening is exactly ZERO
regardless of how long you sit in meditation.

What does understanding mean?

It means that you stop qualifying

you stop saying "But ....."

one example

SAB GOBIND HAI, SAB GOBIND HAI; GOBIND BIN NAHIN KOI

All is GOD; All is GOD; there is nothing else.

so - tell me WHO ARE YOU - if ALL is god?

of course there CANNOT be a YOU if ALL is god!

so you qualify the statement - you add your interpretation
but remember YOU are adding it - it's not there.

just so you can avoid the statement.

You will say "Yes but - ONLY when I realise it - until then it's not true"
so this allows you to avoid the statement - and carry on being a YOU

nobody ever gets this passively.

read the shabd
Pavan mein pavan samaya.......
page 885 granth sahib

it says Brahm Gyani mil karo bichara

- go and discuss this with the brahm gyani if you want correct understanding

later it says
Nah Ko Mooaa; na maranai jog
neither does anyone die - nor can they POSSIBLY die
because he is eternal

@Osho

You are not real. You do not exist. You are completely made up—a fiction of the mind. So how is it you are still posting comments?

"You are not real. You do not exist. You are completely made up—a fiction of the mind. So how is it you are still posting comments?" - Sonia

You don't understand the meaning of REAL / UNREAL?

Real is that which remains forever.
Unreal is that which is here for a while and then ends.

so who I appear to be and who you appear to be are both unreal

I am saying exactly what the gurbani is saying

not sure why you are so confused when I say something so obvious.

of course I am posting because this is the unreal world - i.e. maya

just as you do things in the dream state (or your dream character does)

@Osho,
Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else, but from my point of view gurus are the wrong way to go, a containment fence to keep from seeing the truth for oneself by trying to suck off someone else’s understanding, something that can never work.

It sounds like we have different definitions of "sphere" and "region". I am going by dictionary.com which defines “sphere” as: “the place or environment within which [some] thing exists; a field of activity or operation.”

And also defines “region” as: “a large indefinite area or range of something specified; sphere.”
In other words dictionary.com defines “region” as a “sphere”. They are listed as synonyms. I guess you have different definitions for words. That’s fine with me but if we are not going by the dictionary it makes communication difficult.

A Conundrum for the Oneness Believers that have been convinced by OSHO that we are ALL ONE.

If all drops that return to the Ocean are THE Ocean,...than that would prove that if I jump in to the No. Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Virginia, USA, and OSHO jumps in to that same Ocean off the Coast of any where in the U.K. where he lives, exactly the same time I jump in, than does that prove Osho, the Atlantic Ocean and I are ALL ONE, and the same?

No, it does not.

Osho and I might both be IN the same Ocean, but we are NOT each other, or the Ocean, and THE Ocean is NOT us.

Just imagine every individual Aquatic living being that resides in that same Ocean, that retains their individuality through out their lives.

Consider ANY Electro Chemistry Solution, that contains many different chemicals to form the one, but as electro deposition takes place, each individual ingredient is depleted at different rations changing the consistency of the Solution ,which changes the Oneness of the original solution every Second in use.

Same applies to the Oneness Ocean. Souls are born every second ,while other souls die , changing the consistency of the Ocean of life, so that not any of the souls become THE ONE.

We all might return to be WITH the ONE,....but we NEVER become THE ONE.

Jim Sutherland

All created souls live for ever.

@Osho,

If you are notReal (as in you will not remain forever) then why can’t the inner regions exist as notReal also? They don’t have to be regions... call them whatever you want. The point is, in All of creation there are far more unreal things than this world and other worlds and spheres. There exists layer upon layer upon layer of notReality.

@Osho

You are stuck in believing GSD has said you don’t have to do anything. More importantly, ‘no meditation’. Maybe you had such a hard time doing it you’ve just convinced yourself with an easy way – I am already one, GSD says no meditation. Suits me.

It seems you only hear the indoors Q&A (featuring Shahid Kapoor). Listen to the other Hindi/Punjabi Q&A held in the larger pandal. Each questions is about ‘Babaji I try my best but I have a hard time trying to sit in meditation”. Each answer is “I cannot do your meditation, you’ll have to do it, there’s no other way. You take it lightly because you don’t know the real importance of it. If you did you won’t come with excuses. You go to work, slog 10 hours a day because you know you have to do it, if you attended to your meditation with the same must do attitude you won’t say I try but can’t sit”.

https://youtu.be/NEfX3n-VnoQ?t=62

He’s talking about ‘karni’ or action, you’re talking about inaction - not doing anything, at all. Matter of fact you’re telling people here he himself has specifically said no need for any meditation, you’re already one.

You keep talking about meeting a Brahm Gyani. Who is this Brahm Gyani? Meet them in the physical form, which is unreal/maya or inside? Which by your logic must also be unreal because they must be in the inner region - the Brahm Gyani must reside in Par Bramh - which is a region and hence unreal.

You tell me “stop qualifying” yet you are qualifying someone as a Brahm Gyani. Who should go meet the Brahm Gyani? I? But I am one. How is Brahm Gyani different form me, if I am one? How can this meeting occur if I am already one?

@271 days left

You cannot understand Buddha or nirvana or enlightenment by dictionary definitions, simply because what they are trying to communicate to you is beyond the words and beyond the mind.
All attempts at communicating this, including mine, are hopeless, and are done only for entertainment purposes.

https://youtu.be/-nSMi0whFEA

The real truth is a discovery that is impossible to elaborate upon. The buddhas attempt is as feeble as mine.
Just some people relate to a certain approach and that becomes their ticket out of the matrix.
But that ticket it personal to them, others may not relate to it at all.
Everyone lives in their own reality;
In their own self created world.
Created from their own concepts.

Brain has written a brilliant piece in his latest article about the problem that religions claim to solve.

“ Most religious people, though, fail to realize how thoroughly they've bought into the concepts of their faith. So thoroughly, they never question the reality of those concepts.
Notions like God, heaven, sin, karma, soul, spirit, and such are discussed as if they possessed the same reality as trees, air, sunlight, water, dogs, and other entities that clearly exist.”

“ If you are notReal (as in you will not remain forever) then why can’t the inner regions exist as notReal also? ”. - Sonia

Because I exist in this moment. Not forever, but in this moment. Unicorns do not exist except as a fabrication of mind. They have no reality even in this moment.
In the same way regions, god, enlightenment, nirvana also don’t exist in this moment and are all fictional also.
Anything that does not exist in this moment is fictional as far as we here as humans are concerned.
Regions don’t exist at all. They are in the same category as unicorns and pink elephants.
You can make up whatever you choose with the mind.

That’s is what Brian is referring to in his latest article. Religions make up a problem and if you buy into the problem then you now need their solution.

What the Buddha is offering is different. He creates no problem. But you have to connect with his way of thinking otherwise you will think that nirvana is yet another trap; yet another attempt to solve a fictional problem.

“ All created souls live for ever.‘“
-Jim Sutherland

This is a demonstrably false statement.

Here is why:

Anything that is created, HAS to end.
That which is born has to die.

Because everything within time and space will end.

That is a principle.
If it’s born, it will die.
If it’s created, it will be destroyed

Only the uncreated can remain and will remain forever.

Nanak calls that Sach or truth

Hence he says unborn and undying

@Osho
I understand what you are saying about no concept being correct and people are attached to their concepts and have bought into their concepts with false notions.

But it sounds like what you are saying is that my concepts are false, misguided and of no use, and your concepts of Atheism, no regions, no karma and your own professed need for a guru are correct.

If we throw out all words, we have to throw out your knowledge about there being no regions too.

Seems a little unfair to throw out my concepts as false and accept yours as real, and then say it can’t be discussed further because truth can’t be comprehended by words.

“ Most religious people, though, fail to realize how thoroughly they've bought into the concepts of their faith. So thoroughly, they never question the reality of those concepts.
Notions like God, heaven, sin, karma, soul, spirit, and such are discussed as if they possessed the same reality as trees, air, sunlight, water, dogs, and other entities that clearly exist.”
- Brian Hines in the article 'What is the problem religions are trying to solve?'

As soon as you BELIEVE a concept - it starts to act like a FILTER for all your thoughts, beliefs and life experience from that point onwards.
You can no longer hear any statement as it really is - you will hear it only once it has been distorted by the filter.
Hence 271 days quotes Buddha but cannot hear what Buddha is saying
he ignores (deletes) all the bits that don't fit and instead goes to a dictionary definition of the word sphere - just so he can be right in his concept that there are regions. Even GSD himself is saying in clear language that there are no regions. Nowhere to go .... etc.
This is why a guru of the 4th type is needed who will not allow you to continue in your bullshit.
If you continue in your deluded beliefs - whats the point of going to a master?
If he is happy to allow you to continue with your delusional beliefs then he serves no purpose.

The reason you need faith and love for the guru is so you have the ability to listen. No other reason.
otherwise he is just a man like you - just another human. Worshipping him is pointless.

You have to create the ability to listen by dropping your filter.

271 days quoted from the buddha:

Permanent regions are not something only in sant mat. Buddha too talked about a nirvanic region:
“There is that sphere, monks,
where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air,
no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness,
no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.

There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.
It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,
just this is the end of suffering.”

Now let's see everything that has to be deleted from these statements if you wish to hold on to your concept of regions despite what Buddha says

1. no sphere of infinite space - he is saying there is no infinite space there - and without space there cannot be any 'thing' there - no you or me

2. no sphere of infinite consciousness,
He is purposely denying the idea of "infinite consciousness" because that is what people like to
hold on to. The concept of infinite consciousness keeps you rooted in the idea that there will at
least be something there: I might exist in SOME form. Buddha wants to remove that idea - because it comes from your ego - the notion that I WILL PERSIST in some form. You will not!

3. no sphere of nothingness,
Now Buddha is going even further. He will not even allow you to hold onto the concept of
nothingness.
So when I call it ONENESS or NOTHINGNESS - Buddha is saying I am being too generous
it is not ONE and it not even ZERO. It is non-existence.

4. no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
My god! The Buddha doesn't even stop there. He is saying there is no perception.
fair enough. But now he says - go further - there is not even non-perception.
The only way now is to drop all effort to even try to understand.
That is Buddha's purpose: to get you to give up totally
To get you to realise that you cannot understand. It cannot be captured by the mind
because the mind doesn't operate in the sphere (non-sphere)

5. no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.
Buddha now makes his final appeal. After this - he is giving up on you. You are a hopeless case and even Buddha cannot help you if you miss it now.
no "this world" - that one is easy to understand
no "world beyond" - how the heck you can interpret this to mean a REGION is beyond me.
no heaven, no hell, no region, no Sach Khand, nothing and not even no-nothing. beyond nothing.

then he elaborates

There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.

matches GSD when he says "Nowhere to go" - but ignore your own guru and hold onto your concept - yet you claim to be a disciple. We've all done it - I did it all my life - until someone tapped me on the shoulder and said "You're a fucking idiot. Wake up pal. You really think that you will meet god - where there IS no you and no god to meet." That was bad enough a shock after 20 years of meditation and seeing inner lights / regions and radiant forms. Then he proceeded to prove to me from the very scriptures that I claimed to follow that I was mis-interpreting them. That I was creating my own bullshit.
Only then did it dawn on me that I was deluded. Only after the correct understanding did the realization of it dawn.

.... no persisting. no passing away. no rebirth

Buddha is saying - you will no persist : he is saying your soul will NOT survive. It will no persist there.
there is no passing away, no birth or rebirth. It's all over. That is Buddha's message.
You will NOT survive.
Like I have said before : the atheist is closer to the truth than the religious believer.
Buddha is an athiest. He does not believe in a god.
actually he is a hard athiest (not the soft version). He says there IS NO GOD. Period.

finally he says:

It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,
just this is the end of suffering.

and we somehow interpret that to mean he is saying there are regions!

How can there be regions when he has made it as clear as humanly possible that there is nothing
and even beyond nothing. He leaves you nothing to hold onto and you grab hold onto "regions"

and you say you don't need a guru!

the purpose of the guru is to find someone you can trust who will destroy the concepts that keep you holding on to untruths.

“You are saying that your concepts of Atheism, no regions, no karma and your own professed need for a guru are correct.”
- 271 days left
No – that is incorrect.
Do you think Buddha is giving you a new concept to replace the old ones?
No – he is removing your false concepts and not giving you anything to hold on to.
Hence in his statement he is negating all the concepts you hold dear
He is NOT replacing them with some new heaven. Some new region.
“no regions” is not a new concept to hold on to
It is a negation of the “there ARE regions” belief.
“No karma” is not a new concept – it is a negation of the concept “there is a thing called karma”
These are not new concepts to replace the old.
The last one (my self professed need for a guru) is in a different category. It is my opinion. It is not a belief.
You have take it or leave it – I have just given you lots of reasons why I hold that opinion.
It is, however, an opinion. It’s not a concept and it’s not a fact. You can disagree with it.
But understand I am not stating it as a dogma – as in sant mat.
I am not saying you need a guru in the same way. I am saying it is very useful to have a guru of the 4th type
mentioned earlier. It is only my experience. Doesn’t make it true or false – just my experience.
Atheism is also not a concept or a belief.
The atheist is only saying “You believe in a God – I don’t. prove it to me”
I am not saying to accept any new concept.
The final point you make about “can’t be discussed further” :
Without realization of the Buddha’s truth – you will think he is giving you a new belief system
When in fact he is taking it away.

@Osho,
I think I get what you are saying. People stuck in religious concepts are deluded, backward, and confused; and people stuck in atheistic concepts are advanced, clear-headed, and correct.

Have I summarized your viewpoint correctly?

Osho,

At this point (for your sake) who cares if there are regions or spheres. You’re obviously not going to any of them.

Who cares if there are other planets in our galaxy because you’re not going to any of them either, unless you’ve worked something out with Musk.

And as far as your concerned, Sirius must be a serious joke. I mean, how can it exist? How can anything exist in your world other than you? Obviously your house doesn’t exist. Your friends don’t exist. If you actually live in a home, then regions do exist. But as you describe it, you’re utterly homeless.

Osho,

For 30 years Baba Ji let our past masters speak for him. I wouldn't take the Q&A's as a new gospel, because youtube isn't just for initiates and seekers. It forces Baba Ji to answer in very broad terms. If I knew nothing about Sant Mat and started with his Q&A's, my takeaway about RS meditation would be that people do it for some vague awareness of the divine and strength to face their karmas, end of story. I think it's the wrong place to expect special revelations.

"I think I get what you are saying. People stuck in religious concepts are deluded, backward, and confused; and people stuck in atheistic concepts are advanced, clear-headed, and correct.

Have I summarized your viewpoint correctly?" - 271 days left

No - absolutely not.
that is your conclusion - not mine.

What I have written is exactly my viewpoint - not the one you have concluded

people stuck in any concepts (and i was there too) don't realise that this is the case
I am not condemning them.
They are welcome to remain there if that is what they choose

All I am saying is that there is a way out of the trap that they are not aware of
because the concepts create the trap.

for example - if you believe that your past karmas determine everything that happens to you - you will use that as an excuse to fail.

"At this point (for your sake) who cares if there are regions or spheres. You’re obviously not going to any of them." - Sonia

I have already been there. that is how I know they are creations of the mind in the same way that the mind creates dreams. They seem real in the moment - but they are created by the mind.

Have you ever had a dream?
Did it seem real while it was happening?

but you know it's not real, right?

You know the dream ends and is not reality - it ends when you wake up.
it only appears real while you are dreaming.

so do you maintain that the dream is real?
how will you define real?

have you been to any regions? if not - then they are just a belief for you anyways
if you have then you will know that you are creating the experience.
just as you create the dream

faqir chand openly used to say he travels to all the regions
then he says - they are all fictional - created by the mind
just as the radiant form is also a mind creation

"It forces Baba Ji to answer in very broad terms" - Anami

however, if you watch the videos - they are not surfacy or general at all
in fact he goes into great detail - more than in the normal Q&A sessions in public

the whole conversation about "You are already there - there is no journey
nothing to do - nowhere to go" - is not a general chit chat - it is very specific.

Also - the videos are clearly edited - so if he says something that is not considered appropriate for the world to see - it will be edited out


@ You know the dream ends and is not reality - it ends when
@ you wake up. it only appears real while you are dreaming.
@ so do you maintain that the dream is real?
@ how will you define real?

But the experience of those fictional events is very real. Only
the props in the scene aren't. As you say, you're terrified of
the monster in a nightmare until you wake up. Powered by
the soul though, the mind is able to create a fake movie
scene for a thrill, a sensation.

@ faqir chand openly used to say he travels to all the regions
@ then he says - they are all fictional - created by the mind
@ just as the radiant form is also a mind creation.

But that same fictional radiant form can arrange a movie
set to warn of danger, to guide us inside, to be the 24x7
friend we all need and want. That is until we understand
what's happening within. We create those experiences
ourselves. We are the directors of our movie.

For instance, the story is told by Ishwar Puri of several of F.
Chand's disciples during WW1. Surrounded by the enemy,
their guru's radiant form appeared and led them to safety
through a secret tunnel. The danger, the inner form, the
tunnel were all contrivances. Afterward, they thanked him
but he claimed to know nothing.

A "fictional form" appeared to have saved them.


“I have already been there. that is how I know they are creations of the mind in the same way that the mind creates dreams. They seem real in the moment - but they are created by the mind.”

Osho, no one is arguing with your (above) statement! Is that your premise? OMG what is all this backing and forthing about??

Yes, EVERYTHING is a creation of the mind. Everything except for the Shabd or One.

I’ve just reached the conclusion that WORDS aren’t real. 🧐


Hi Osho
You wrote
"Have you ever had a dream?
Did it seem real while it was happening?

" but you know it's not real, right?

"You know the dream ends and is not reality - it ends when you wake up.
it only appears real while you are dreaming.

" so do you maintain that the dream is real?
"how will you define real?"

You only know its a dream because you wake up to this reality, which is more lasting and reliable. Then you view the dream and realize it was a plastic creation made of real things from your life, but seen only through the imagination. The dream is fleeting, but this reality is constant.

If you had never woken up, you would be like someone in a coma for years, your entire life a series of dreams.

The regions are real, and the proof is that when you awaken there, you see this tiny life as a fleeting, changing, plastic dream made largely of imaginary things, and a few real ones but seen only through the imagination.

They are more real, in experience, than this place.

But why believe anyone else? Go there. For real. Then when you can live in that higher state of consciousness in those regions, among the stars, beyond them, then you will know the real regions from the imagined ones. And you will not regard this place as real anymore.

Spence: You only know its a dream because you wake up to this reality, which is more lasting and reliable. Then you view the dream and realize it was a plastic creation made of real things from your life, but seen only through the imagination. The dream is fleeting, but this reality is constant.


That is a great point. The dream is known to be unreal ONLY AFTER YOU AWAKE and realise it is just a fleeting vision – even though it appeared to be REAL in the moment.
So point no 1: everything you experience APPEARS to be real in the moment.
Because the dream may have lasted 15 minutes, but in those 15 minutes, you might have lived 15 years because in dreams TIME is distorted. You measure time by how much happens. If a lot happens – it takes a long time. In the dream state you can go to india, meet someone, get married, have kids, divorce them, and be back and marry someone else. You can do that in less than a minute.
Because the imagination creates the experiences real fast, so a lot happens in a short time.
Time is speeded up. 30 years here is just 30 seconds in the dream state.
Those who practise lucid dreaming wake up in the dream state and can then also direct their dreams.
The dream is only fleeting – once you wake up.
In the same way – the state of ONENESS is permanent – as there is no space or time there. There is ZERO change. Nothing changes because there is nothing there to change and no time either. So it’s the ultimate permanent state because if there is no time at all, change is impossible. Change requires the dimension of time. Things requires the dimension of space. In the ONE – there is NO time and NO space.
No things – that is why there cannot be a “individual soul” – there cannot be separation. There is only the ONE and nothing else.
Hence those so say “We will then MERGE in the ONE” are mistaken – there is no merging. Nothing ever happens.

Spence: If you had never woken up, you would be like someone in a coma for years, your entire life a series of dreams.

Exactly. If you never wake up into the ONE, your existence will be a series of births and re-births because that is all you know.

Spence: The regions are real, and the proof is that when you awaken there, you see this tiny life as a fleeting, changing, plastic dream made largely of imaginary things, and a few real ones but seen only through the imagination. They are more real, in experience, than this place.

Exactly the same can be said for the dream state. While you are dreaming – it’s real and this waking life is unreal.
Because you are experiencing the dream at the time – it’s happening and it’s real in the moment.
The waking life by comparison seems unreal.
Real / unreal is subjective. What you experience in the moment is real for you.

What you call “inner regions” is nothing more than waking up in your dreams – conscious dreaming.
Astral projection is the same thing. You have the same imagination and can create any reality you choose
But you don’t have a body to take along with you – so things happen fast.
Here you have a body and everything takes time : you can build a house in 6 months and it will take money
In the astral you can build one ten times bigger in a few seconds and no money is needed.
If you can imagine it – it happens. The dream state is the astral – just semi-conscious.
And what you experience is conscious dreaming – or astral projection.

@Osho,
You said:
‘ “no regions” is not a new concept to hold on to
It is a negation of the “there ARE regions” belief.’

From my viewpoint believing there are no regions is a belief, a concept held onto. When you are free of beliefs you are in an “I don’t know,” condition. A belief is when you are in a “I know,” condition.

Thus if you have no belief about regions you say, “I don’t know, I have no beliefs one way or another.”

If you have a belief, you say, “I know. There are definitely no regions. My belief is correct and opposing beliefs [in regions] are wrong.”

It’s not possible to have an opposing belief to someone free of beliefs.

By the way, do you happen to have the direct quote of Faqir Chand saying the Sach Khand regions are creations of the mind? Most shabd masters say the mind is dropped after Maha Sunn.

Not sure why my comments take so long to get approved but by the time they’re published they’re lost too far at the top.

@Osho, please read my last comment.

**You keep talking about meeting a Brahm Gyani. Meet them in the physical form, which is unreal/maya? Or inside? Which by your logic must also be unreal because that must be in the inner region - the Brahm Gyani must reside in Par Bramh - which is a region and hence unreal.
You tell me “stop qualifying” yet you are qualifying someone as a Brahm Gyani.**

So who is this Brahm Gyani? The One? So since you are already One, are you a Brahm Gyani?

271 days
the quote of buddha you wrote was:

“There is that sphere, monks,
where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air,
no sphere of infinite space, no sphere of infinite consciousness,
no sphere of nothingness, no sphere of neither perception nor non-perception,
no this world, no world beyond, neither Moon nor Sun.
There, monks, I say there is surely no coming,
no going, no persisting, no passing away, no rebirth.
It is quite without support, unmoving, without an object,
just this is the end of suffering.”

do you consider that buddha is giving you a new belief?

he is negating everything.
"no this world, no world beyond"

when I say there are no regions, I am not saying nobody experiences them.
they do. I have too. same with the radiant form.

what I am saying is the same as faqir - they are mind creations

faqir:

"During my stay in Baghdad I threw myself wholeheartedly in spiritual sadhana. I gave as much time as possible to inward practice (meditation) and led a life of complete celibacy. These sincere efforts of mine with a desire to know the Truth bore fruit and in the course of time I ascended all the inner regions and experienced the lights and sounds at each stage on the inward path. These inner fruits of my meditation filled me with joy and ecstasy. But in spite of this achievement I was not yet contented, because I wanted to realize the Truth which had prompted Swamiji Maharaj to condemn all religions."
"Faqir, you are yourself the Supreme Master of your time. Start delivering spiritual discourses to the seekers and initiate them into the path of Sant Mat. In due course of time, your own satsangis will prove to be your True Guru,' and it is through your experiences with them that the desired secret of Sant Mat will be revealed to you." Touched by these words, I experienced both joy and sorrow within me. Hazur noted both expressions on my face and asked for clarification. I humbly said, "Your Holiness, I am myself ignorant of the Truth, how can I lead others on this sublime path? And when the thought that I have become a degree holder and would deliver discourses and initiate people flashed within my mind, I felt that I had become something and thus a spark of joy." Hazur then said, "Faqir, you may be suffering from ninetynine shortcomings, but one sure virtue of Truth which is within you will lead you to your goal in life. You will not only redeem yourself but will help many others to attain release."


Mark Juergensmeyer :
What stages or regions did you reach within according to the Radhaswami faith?
Faqir Chand :
There are different stages, different colors and different sounds. I had seen all. But I was not satisfied with all this inward abhyas. So he gave me this work just to make me realize the Reality. When I came to this line as a guru or as a master my eyes were opened. Why? Because those who regard me as their guru and those who consider me as their master my image appears to them in their meditation, in their dreams and even in a state of wakefulness and guides them, whereas I remain unaware of all this.
You understand me, what I am telling you? I want to be very frank with you. You have come for research. I am telling you my personal life. Daily I receive many letters. Some people write that I went there in an airplane to take a dying man; some say that I come on a horse; and others write that I come in a palanquin at the time of the death of a man, whereas I do not go anywhere. All what they see in meditaion,
-101
in dreams or in wakefulness, all proves to me that all what we see inside is nothing but subtle matter or illusion. I think you are following me.

Mark Juergensmeyer :
Then should one have a guru?
Faqir Chand :
Guru means knowledge; without guru we cannot achieve anything. Our mother is out guru, our father is our guru, our friend is our guru and the world around us is our guru. But the Real Guru who makes the Self free from the bondage of this world is called the Sat Guru. And to attain the Reality the Sat Guru must be a perfect man. Nowadays this guruism has become a source of earning one’s keep.
Mark Juergensmeyer :
You know, some people say that science is also a guru.
Faqir Chand :
Yes, science is also a teacher. But excuse me, unless someone is there to explain to you about it, you will not understand anything about it. Therefore, external guru is most essential and important. Although the knowledge is in the student, he cannot attain that knowledge without a teacher or a professor, who teaches him and makes him
-114
[come to] realize that knowledge which is within that student. But if the brain of the student is not capable and receptive then teacher or professor may do anything, he would not be able to understand it. Yes, anything else you want to ask ?

@Osho,
Are you trying to say those quotes are what you are referring to as Faqir saying Sach Khand is of the mind only?

Yes, he said sights you see in meditation are of the mind, but nowhere here is there anything like him saying Sach Khand and higher regions are of the mind only. (Sach Khand is not a sight you see in meditation).
I kind of thought you were making that up.

“You keep talking about meeting a Brahm Gyani. Meet them in the physical form, which is unreal/maya? Or inside?”
- Brian Ji
A Brahm Gyani simply means a human who has realised the ONE brahm. Scriptures refer to such a person as a Brahm Gyani rather than titles like perfect master. Of course you meet such a person is the physical – because you are in the physical.
The difference is the Brahm Gyani knows this is maya – his body is also maya – as is yours – as is everything here. However this is the only reality we know here – so that is where we get the realization. The realization is that this whole thing is unreal / maya.
Just like in sant mat – you get initiated by a physical master even though the is maya and so are you.
I am not saying anything new when I say that it’s all maya / unreal here. That is what the whole of sant mat is saying.
Nanak kacharyan sio tor, dhund sajan sant pakiyan
Nanak – leave the temporary ones here and hold onto the permanent sant.
The sant is actually also no permanent – but the realization is!
Naam actually refers to realization – not some sound.
That’s why it says there are two types of naam
Dhunakmik (real) and varanatmik (spoken / written)
When I say “Only the ONE is real” that is varan – spoken – words.
When you understand and it becomes YOUR truth – it’s dhunatmik
Bulleh shah says:
Oh Haadi (teacher / guru) mere andar bholiya
Lar par gayi gunah
That teacher has now spoken inside me (meaning it’s becomes my realization now)
And that has freed me from sin / karma

“the Brahm Gyani must reside in Par Bramh - which is a region and hence unreal.”
– Brian Ji
The Brahm Gyani does not reside there – he has REALISED Brahm (which is a reference to the ONE)
Brahm does not have a region – it is impossible for there to be regions.
Regions belong to MAYA
ONE is simply ONE. Nothing there – no division, no souls, no region. Hindu scriptures call it “neti, neti”
Neither this not that.
These are all ways of communicating the same truth to those who cannot understand it.
Listen to osho on the topic (the real one – not me – I just stole his name)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nSMi0whFEA&t=12s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKOI_N-nvzM

labels don’t matter to me
I can label myself a Brahm Gyani if it is useful in the moment
But in reality – I am nothing special – totally ordinary.
Nanak: I am made of the 5 elements and people call me nanak.
This is not humility – it is the truth.

Path of hanging on the gallows by Baba Faqir Chand

To reach that immortal Abode one has to dispel all worldly longing, thoughts, desires, and attachments.

Now what is meant by hanging on the gallows in Sant Mat?

When someone is punished to death by hanging, a rope is put around his neck from the gallows. The wooden plank is removed from beneath his feet, and he is suspended in the air with only a rope around his neck that throttles him to death. The accused gets no support whatsoever to his body, except the rope of the gallows.

Likewise, in Sant Mat His Ahode is the gallows. Surat or Self is to he hanged to it with simran, dhyan, and bhajan (spiritual sadhana, interior meditation) and later to be suspended without any support of desire, longing, or even that of simran, dhyan, and bhajan, except with the string of Love.

This is what I understand from the word "gallows."

O Fagir, these satsangis have taught you the method of hanging at the gallows. Only this experience of the manifestation of my form at different, places, of which I am never aware, has changed my life. .

My experiences prove that Yogi, Meditator, Guru, Disciple, and even the aspirant of salvation are in bondage.

Bondage means attachment of our surat (attention) to some thing, be it gross, subtle, or causal.

Devotees of God are attached to their devotion and lost in it. They too are in bondage; the only difference is that some attachments are a source of joy, whereas others prove to be a source of worry.

Those people who create my form with their mental forces to fulfill their worldly desires are not interested to know the Truth.

They do not hang themselves on the gallows, because they depend on the support of my Form. Whereas to a man oil the gallows there is no support. This is the highest stage.

Now I understand that all the lower centers (or inner regions from Sahansdal Kanwal to Bhanwar Gupha) are not the Reality. I

It is all phantasmagoria.

How did my delusion perish?

Firstly, this realization that I do not manifest anywhere, removed the darkness of my mind.

Secondly, when I ascend to the state of Light and Sound, I try to search out the object which sees the Light and listens to the Sound.

But I fail to find its end. It is Infinite.

What did I understand, Have I attained some extraordinary powers by reaching that state?

No. I cannot treat my own ailments. Neither I nor any other saint could and can do anything.

I reached this conculsion that this, is all His Will.

@Solomon,
Nice quote from Faqir. Not sure what you are trying to say by posting it but I guess it illustrates my point that Faqir never came close to saying Sach Khand was of the mind. He says the lower regions “Sahansdal Kanwal to Bhanwar Gupha” are not Reality, in accordance with other shabd masters.

Faqir seems like a very honest person and it is a pity David Lane tried to twist his words into something he never said. In this quote Faqir demonstrates his identity with form by saying his Light and Sound experiences cannot treat his ailments. [body identity]. This demonstrates that having such experiences does not undo the ego and is not liberation; something GSD has been saying for years.

What does lead to liberation? Total surrender and Faqir has correctly mentioned that, although, he doesn’t appear to have applied it or he would have surrendered body identity which he clearly has not.

All in all Faqir claims to be “unknowing” and to have no beliefs about what his mystical experiences mean, and that seems genuine, so I guess you could say Faqir is doing what Osho Robbins falsely pretends to be doing (having no beliefs).

Thanks, Solomon. Was that 024?

I don’t know if he’s speaking Hindi or Punjabi in those videos but I’m definitely starting to learning a new language (at least a little).


@271 days left
okay - let me take out the key sentences for you

All what they see in meditation, in dreams or in wakefulness,
all proves to me that all what we see inside is nothing but
SUBTLE MATTER OR ILLUSION.
I think you are following me.

now a little more detail:

"During my stay in Baghdad I threw myself wholeheartedly in spiritual sadhana.
I gave as much time as possible to inward practice (meditation) and led a life
of complete celibacy. These sincere efforts of mine with a desire to know the
Truth bore fruit and in the course of time I ascended all the inner regions and
experienced the lights and sounds at each stage on the inward path.
These inner fruits of my meditation filled me with joy and ecstasy.
But in spite of this achievement I was not yet contented.

Let's pause here.
First of all he is saying in very clear terms that he has been through all the regions.

so the goal that all the followers are trying to achieve - he has already achieved.
This is very important to understand because anyone who has achieved what you
are SEEKING to achieve is ahead of you on your path. It's a good idea to listen to them.

So what is he saying? "I was not yet contented"
he wanted to know why swami ji (and all gurus) condemn all the religions.

next point: instead of saying, "It's okay faqir, carry on with your meditation"
Shiv Brat Lal (his guru) says:

"Start delivering spiritual discourses to the seekers and initiate them into the path of Sant Mat. In due course of time, your own satsangis will prove to be your True Guru,' and it is through your experiences with them that the desired secret of Sant Mat will be revealed to you."

Now this seems a bit strange.
what is the "desired secret of sant mat?" that he refers to?
all the followers seem to think it's all about meditation and regions.
but here he is saying something different.

Shiv Brat lal then says
"You will not only redeem yourself but will help many others to attain release."

Chand goes on......

"When I came to this line as a guru or as a master my eyes were opened. Why? Because those who regard me as their guru and those who consider me as their master my image appears to them in their meditation, in their dreams and even in a state of wakefulness and guides them, whereas I remain unaware of all this.
You understand me, what I am telling you?"

this is a KEY point he is making: he is unaware of the inner visions and experiences of his
disciples (even when they experience his radiant form).

"Daily I receive many letters. Some people write that I went there in an airplane to take a dying man; some say that I come on a horse; and others write that I come in a palanquin at the time of the death of a man, whereas I do not go anywhere. All what they see in meditation,
in dreams or in wakefulness, all proves to me that all what we see inside is nothing but subtle matter or illusion."

This is the nail in the coffin.

he cannot make it any clearer.

he is saying that he DOES NOT go to the disciples and knows nothing of it.
he has no special power. he is an ordinary man.
furthermore he is saying that it's all an illusion
everything you see in meditation is an illusion.

and you are asking me "where does he say that sach khand is not real?"

you say: "I guess it illustrates my point that Faqir never came close to saying Sach Khand was of the mind. He says the lower regions “Sahansdal Kanwal to Bhanwar Gupha” are not Reality, in accordance with other shabd masters."

show me where he says that? can't you see you are making it up?
you have a filter which does not allow you to hear him.

what does "ALL WHAT WE SEE INSIDE ....." mean? does it exclude sach khand?
did he qualify this with "Except Sach Khand..."

no - except in your mind

your conclusion from this is:

"This demonstrates that having such experiences does not undo the ego and is not liberation; something GSD has been saying for years."

really?
is that what you get from this?
firstly: he is saying he has gone all the way to sach khand - not just "experiences"
and where does GSD say that reaching the final destination of sach khand does not undo the ego?

@271 days left

this is straight out of chand's book "The secret of bhajan"

based on his talk for harjit singh in london

This is why Swamiji has said:
Those who merge into Shabad (Word) without Satsang,
consider them fools too.

I don’t criticize, but today’s gurus – they don’t tell us anything. They keep
repeating – Shabad, Shabad, Shabad, Guru, Guru, Guru. Look at the lives of
Gurus. Nirankari guru died and gave his throne to his son. The Beas ones put
their grandson on the throne. Hansa established his son as a successor.

In this world, may Paramatma or supreme lord save us from these gurus. These
gurus have fooled us and looted us. They did not tell the truth. But I don’t
blame them. We people are not ready to listen to the truth.

@271 days left

faqir chand writes:

Leave aside the Saints, you put a wicked
and immoral person on the seat of a Guru,
develop faith in him, his form too shall manifest
and help you like the manifested form of the
great Saints.
You are not helped by any Saint or Guru,
but by your own faith and belief.


It is your own faith that creates your experiences.
The guru has no special power

ultimately the realization is that there is nothing.

there are many ways to that realization.
the path is personal to each person because each of us created our own trap
in our own unique way

we were born free and untrapped.
the trap is always created by our beliefs

until we can see this clearly - we cannot get free.

the sant mat follower, for example, has the firm belief
that he is a soul or atman and he is separated from paramatma
and he needs to meditate and go back and merge his soul back into
the sea of sat purush

as long as he holds that belief - that remains his trap.

you read Buddha and create your own interpretation

you cannot be blamed - it is impossible to see without your filter
the filter is there and cannot be dropped.

the function of a guru is that he drops your filters.

for the first time you see without filters.


The Unknowing Sage :
Baba Faqir Chand

Read the entire book in pdf

https://www.captainlalchand.com/uploads/8/8/5/3/88539188/unknows_sage.pdf

Here are links to the rest of Faqir Chand 's writings

https://manavtamandir.com/english-books.php

https://www.captainlalchand.com/english-books.html

Great links - thanks for sharing.

Faqir Chand's YouTube videos and old writings have always been good food for thought. Good stuff to munch on over the weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRzT0qpbIqY&t=3105s
this is his satsang at harjit's house in london

in it he says he has had discussions with many of the sant mat gurus
he mentions charan and kirpal

apparently kirpal agreed but said "your work is destructive and mine is contructive"

to which chand replied - that I don't contruct buildings - but i construct people's lives

Hi Osho
Why do you believe Faqir Chand?

Hi Osho
You wrote
"In the same way – the state of ONENESS is permanent – as there is no space or time there. There is ZERO change. Nothing changes because there is nothing there to change and no time either. So it’s the ultimate permanent state because if there is no time at all, change is impossible. Change requires the dimension of time. Things requires the dimension of space. In the ONE – there is NO time and NO space.
No things – that is why there cannot be a “individual soul” – there cannot be separation. There is only the ONE and nothing else."

That can't be this world because here time is real and evidence of it is all around.

You must be talking about another place. Not this one. Another One. Not the one science tells is has time and motion.

During meditation when the mind of a disciple gets concentrated by love and faith, then the very form that the disciple has faith in (saint, Guru) manifests within to help and guide.

In the Ramayana this principle of manifestation has been mentioned:

‘Ja Ki Rahi Bhavna Jaisi, Prabhu Murat dekhi tin Jaisi.’

This means that in whatever form a devotee feels and loves the divine, in the same form that formless divinity will manifest.

Hi Solomon
Could the Ramayana be wrong about that?

@Osho,
So we are all in agreement that reaching Sach Khand does not end the ego, does not bring contentment, and is not the end of the path. Faqir Chand is in agreement with this and expresses it in many places. Basically, Faqir said it did nothing for him. It didn’t bring satisfaction or an end to problems. We are all in agreement with that. It is just an experience that comes and goes.

So Faqir reached Sach Khand and it didn’t undo the ego. We have many examples of gurus that have reached, [that is to say experienced] cosmic realms and continued on with egoic ways such as Paul Twitchell, Thakar Singh, too many to even start listing.

Because reaching Sach Khand does not undo the ego, it does not bring permanent satisfaction... that does not mean it doesn’t exist.

2. If I have an experience of let’s say heroin it may be extremely ecstatic and wonderful. But that experience doesn’t change me in any way other than causing me to want to repeat it. Nisargadatta gave a wonderful quote about this. He said in essence:
The lust a man may have for a woman is innocence itself compared to the lust yogis have for ecstatic energy experiences.

So having experiences does nothing for realization. Why? Because it doesn’t eliminate the sense of separate identity [ or if it does, does so only temporarily and when the mind is picked up again all false beliefs are picked up with it.]

This is why Zen Buddhists describe kundalini yogis as lost in makyo, that is to say, distracted by energy. Energy experience is not realization. Does that mean they don’t exist?

3. And that’s where we get to the heart of the matter which is paradox. Nothing exists except consciousness. It is not that you and I exist and have consciousness. No, there is only consciousness. Anyone can say that but few can totally get that. But the point is paradox. Yes, the table, headphones, and regions exist. And no, nothing exists except consciousness which can take the form of a table, headphones, and regions. That’s why a master may say to one person regions don’t exist and then encourage others to reach them. Some want to undo the ego. Some want energy higher realm experiences. There’s room for everyone. It depends on what you want.

@Osho, {Sorry this was supposed to be the first part of the previous message)
It seems like you have a few issues conflated and confused. Let’s see where we are in agreement.
1. Reaching Sach Khand does not bring contentment, full realization, nor does it end the ego. I think we are in agreement with that right? GSD said this too. I asked him at the mic one day:
Q:Does reaching Sach Khand undo the ego?
GSD: No.

Posted by: 271 Days Left | October 01, 2020 at 08:57 PM
Posted by: 271 Days Left | October 01, 2020 at 09:00 PM

@271

I read both of your comments and my head just exploded. I get it, I really do. But it was a shock to hear. Makes sense though. It's in line with what other philosophies teach.

Started Faqir's book and I'm at the part where Hazur tells Faqir he may have 99 problems but truth isn't one of them. LOL

Hi Solomon
Could the Ramayana be wrong about that? Posted by: Spence Tepper |

Hello Spence
No the Ramayana is not wrong.
On the path of Sant Mat disciples are told to visualise the form of the Living Guru and develop love and faith for him.

The divinity or higher self within - that takes the form - not the external guru coming in - now this doesnt mean that the Living Guru is fake - its how the system is designed.

@ You know the dream ends and is not reality - it ends when
@ you wake up. it only appears real while you are dreaming.
@ so do you maintain that the dream is real?
@ how will you define real?

But the experience of those fictional events is very real. Only
the props in the scene aren't. As you say, you're terrified of
the monster in a nightmare until you wake up. Powered by
the soul though, the mind is able to create a fake movie
scene for a thrill, a sensation.

@ faqir chand openly used to say he travels to all the regions
@ then he says - they are all fictional - created by the mind
@ just as the radiant form is also a mind creation.

But that same fictional radiant form can arrange a movie
set to warn of danger, to guide us inside, to be the 24x7
friend we all need and want. That is until we understand
what's happening within. We create those experiences
ourselves. We are the directors of our movie.

For instance, the story is told by Ishwar Puri of several of F.
Chand's disciples during WW1. Surrounded by the enemy,
their guru's radiant form appeared and led them to safety
through a secret tunnel. The danger, the inner form, the
tunnel were all contrivances. Afterward, they thanked him
but he claimed to know nothing.

A "fictional form" appeared to have saved them.

Posted by: Dungeness | September 29, 2020 at 04:12 PM

Wonder of wonders... :)

How we behave shows what we believe. And yes, Osho is right, ones rigid beliefs become an impenetrable filter. That’s why one should always evaluate what is being said. We should evaluate our own behaviors and thoughts on a daily basis.

I’m getting the impression from all of these comments that there needs to be a consensus on the very definition of enlightenment.

@Spence

"The state of ONENESS is permanent – as there is no space or time there.
There is only the ONE and nothing else." - Osho R

That can't be this world because here time is real and evidence of it is all around.
You must be talking about another place. Not this one. Another One. Not the one science tells is has time and motion. - Spence

I am not talking about this world.
I am talking about the same as what Nanak is talking about
"Aad Sach, Jugaad Sach, hai be Sach, nanak hosee bi Sach"
"Was true in the beginning and will be true through the ages, is true now and will be forever" - basically means - ALWAYS and permanent. i.e. beyond TIME and SPACE.

there is nothing in this world that has those attributes.
That is the state of ONENESS. It cannot be described because there is nothing there.
no you, no me, nothing except the ONE. Even to say there is ONE is a lie because
the ONE is not a thing. It is endless. The gurbani is full of these statements.

this world = duality. (things, opposites, time, space, born, dies, etc)
The ONE = non-duality (no time, no space, no soul, no thing, no division)

your other question: Why do I believe Faqir Chand?

ans: I don't. He has a few things right. I certainly am no fan.
Otherwise I would have changed my online name to Faqir Osho Robbins Chand.
I happen to agree with a lot of his observations.
for instance he says he has been to all the regions and at the same time he says
it is all illusion - creation of the mind. Just like he says radiant forms are creations of your
own mind - not something the guru consciously places in you.
whatever you experience is a creation of your own mind.
just like in the dream state:
it appears like it is REALLY happening.
bur actually the entire dream and everything that happens in the dream
is created by your own subconscious mind. No external power or being creates the dream.

many years ago I met Baba Kehar (Tarn Tarn). Son of Partap Singh who used to give satsangs at beas - on the state - while charan singh sat next to him. They had a special affiliation with beas. anyway - he was the son and successor of partap singh.
He was in London and I went to see him. It was in someone's house.
I asked one question: "It is said that saints know everything. can you elaborate? RIght now - what do you know?"
He was taken aback by my question.
He asked me to sit on the ground in front of him and repeat the question.
I did.
He then said "Never has anyone asked me such a question.
I will reply like nobody has ever replied."
then he goes on to say "I know nothing. nothing at all. Nor does any other guru.
if some disciples of mine dies right now - I cannot go to take care of him because I
dont even know he has died. There is no "all knowing" - it is a lie."
we became good friends after that and I would meet him every time he came to the
UK. I always told him I have the greatest respect for him because he told me the truth.
Once I sat on the bed next to him and he said "the disciples don't like it when you do that"
"The question is - do you have a problem? not the disciples." I replied
"I don't mind, but they think it is disrespectful" he said
"They call me a sant" he added
"Yes - but I consider you my friend - I dont care about sant etc"
he would tell me things he never told anyone.
Like what he did when people came to him asking for "a son" etc
he gave them a bottle of blessed water and I asked him what power he had
to be able to bless the water. He told me what he never tells anyone.
I have respect for those who speak the truth - like faqir chand

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