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August 09, 2020

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Very good post!!
Idd the teachings are different now with Babaji.
That is absolutely true.

''From self to shabd ''is a good read also about that.(I did not read the whole little book)
It's not about radiant forms of the master..it's about ''shabd''
Most people hear some shabds..by the way..
It's is mostly about awareness..oness
The older sewadars tell about the old santmat..I do'nt know if that is still the case.
Ohh and about sewa in earlier times lots of people did that for their karma..
I think nowadays it's just nice to work and do things together in a nice environment.
One day I said to Babaji in privat intervieuw that I ''hate''the word chaurasi''
His answer was..''Then do'nt hear it'' :0)
No dicussions no questening...Actually that was funny ,also strange..
The whole path is about the ''freeing''of chaurasi.
I found it fear mongering.So to let that go was great.
Anyway there is a big change from the old Santmat.
Definitely!!

If you don’t learn the real teachings and just think the guru will save you, you are deluded. GSD even specifically says that just doing seva hoping the guru will give you extra points is delusion. You have to meditate.

If you replace the word ‘meditate’ with ‘contemplate’, in the sense of ‘ponder’ then I agree. If meditation just means to repeat five holy words then I don’t agree

If all is a matter of personal believe, than the believe that the teachings have change under MGS, might as well be a believe.

Things are what they,
seldom what they look like
let alone how the are presented
or .... believed to be.

Personally I don't see any differences in what he says with what his uncle said.
One should what any of the masters says not compare with what is in the books and certainly not with the "teachings of the followers, seekers, exers " .... listening to the tapes of both would make that clear.

These masters, guru's have very little to say of them selves. They sit there and answer questions. Analyse what sort of questions are asked. What is it that those who ask want from them?!
Confirmation of their personal understandings of the teachings, forgiveness, short cuts, lifting of the rules et etc.

Who can say he lived the teachings as an Carmelite monk or nun ... to the complete exclusion of everything else?

Naturally if one doesn't live such an life one needs and wants the guru present himself as SAVIOR.

FEI ... I didn't live such a life ....... and ....do otherwise lack al the other necessities to do so.
It is just an making is of an personal account

Totally agree with you, Osho.
Repeating the 5 names is concentration, which is useful, but not supposed to understood as meditation. When the attention that is given to simran is pulled back, relaxed, in oneself...it is meditation. Or, in other words, awareness in awareness.
And the real guru is "your own ability to truly understand" the scripture's revelations through contemplation.

"A person following RSSB in the 70's and 80's would not recognise RSSB today as the same path. There are just too many differences."

We old timers were ready for the higher teachings. Baba's had no choice but to dumb it down to life coaching, antics and escapades.

Belief that Christendom would not collapse is foolishness of highest order. One concept of breatharanism can lead to its collapse in no time.

If it's all about "meditation" then what is the purpose of satsang?

If the teachings are:
1. be a vegetarian
2. meditate 2.5 hours a day
3. be honest and moral
4. do seva but not at the cost of meditation

If that is pretty much the teaching - then - and this is important to understand

what is the purpose of satsang?
we are told it is to REMIND us of the teachings.

My question:
Do satsangis have such a bad memory that they cannot remember a few key teachings?
I mean how many times do we need reminding?
once a week?
you mean, in a week, we forget?

is our memory like a sieve?

like we come back a week later and ask the secretary
"Can you remind me HOW MANY hours of meditation was it?"
and
"What were the other rules again?"

clearly the purpose of satsang is not to remind us at all.

it might be to INSPIRE us - which is not the same as reminding.

or - and this is my take on it :-
it's neither of these. It's to give us WISDOM and right understanding of the true
teachings : to give us the correct perspective about the ONENESS and how to realise the oneness.

Otherwise all those words are pointless.

You may as well just keep on repeating the basics.
fill every page with
1. Find a true shabd guru
2. meditate 2.5 hours
3. listen to satsang to remind you of all this
4. live an honest and moral life.

but the reality is that the granth sahib contains lots of shabds that are trying to explain some intricate teachings such as
1. the only barrier between you and God (oneness) is YOU (ego)
2. Everything is in hukam and God is the doer
3. You are not the body / mind and separate person you think you are
4. Nobody is born and nobody dies - this is just the game of the ONE Kartar (God)
5. simply repeating words will not get you to realization

obviously there is a reason the gurbani is making these points
it's not just for entertainment


You were a young child, young boy, young adult Osho .... how often did the people have to repeat themselves before you were willing to make it your own decision?

And in order to realise for yourself that Nanak was right ... you have to meditate.

and a fr as 5 is concerned ... you have to find out tht meditation is not the same as mechanical, thoughtless repetition of names while looking ... TV of the world.

Meditation is taking yourself serious, your own questions .... guru's only remind you ... they are of no help.

People knock at their doors, they are not invited, they come of their own accord. Then they demand all sorts of things to be solved from them. It is like a having thirst and wanting thrm to solve that problem ... their answer is well ... drink

We all have to live our own life ... nobody can do it for us, not even help us.
The best help there is comes from the person that makes you realize that simple truth.

Um asks
"how often did the people have to repeat themselves before you were willing to make it your own decision?"

A young child is in a different boat from this.
those followers who have taken initiation have already made the decision to join.

Their position is this: I have joined and I am interested. Tell me the next step. Tell me what I need to do next.

My point is that if the answer is "meditate, seva, satguru, moral code" then I dont see why a weekly satsang is needed. Surely it's not that complicated to cover those few points.

You are saying they need convincing? but they are already initiated and have made the decision.

Um says
"you have to find out that meditation is not the same as mechanical, thoughtless repetition of names while looking ... TV of the world.
Meditation is taking yourself serious, your own questions .... guru's only remind you ... they are of no help."

Hmmm... interesting version of the teachings.
Just for the record the satguru is considered a central a pivotal figure in the teachings - very different from "they are of no help"

In fact the teachings state "Don't walk this path without a competent guru"

what you have is your own personal belief and YOUR VERSION of the teachings. There are as many versions of the teachings as there are followers. Each is following their own path, which they think is the right path.

Also for the record -
SIMRAN is defined as parrot fashion repitition of the five words given at initiation.
even though it says the words are to be repeated slowly and with attention
it is still mechanical repitition
How is meditation about "taking yourself serious and answering your questions" ?
again this is your version. Have you read this in any of their books?


"You alter your perceptions to make the world fit into your beliefs, so you never experience the world. You experience only YOUR VERSION, which is the world, seen through the filter of your beliefs."

True for everyone :True for Spence, True for Osho, true for Brian Ji.
Everyone does it. It's how the brain works. The body alters your own sensations depending on your feelings about a person. Your brain highlights images that are of greater interest to you and erases images that aren't. And it does this even before you see the landscape around you.

It makes little sense to criticize this fundamental fact of physiology.

"It's [Satsang] to give us WISDOM and right understanding of the true
teachings : to give us the correct perspective about the ONENESS and how to realise the oneness."

Osho where does it say this? In what book? I've never read this in any Sant Mat text. Please remind me.

Sat Sang is associating with truth...inspiration to meditate. That is the only purpose.

And this is why Church of the Churchless is great Satsang. When you see the ignorance of others you realize how lucky you are and go and meditate. But it's still not as good as being in the presence of the Master. That's far more emotional, but that emotion is bliss. All psychological pain is temporarily released. And we want more, and so this renews our commitment to effort at meditation. Experience and the effect, whereas the talking is a distant second place in importance and value.

I would rather drink water than talk about it.

https://rssb.org/book-EN-266-0.html
the book
essential sant mat
page 24.
quote: " This is called simran (repetition of words given by the master at initiation). With the body remaining motionless in meditation, simran stills and focuses the mind at the eye centre, an inner focus between and above the two eyes. In this stillness we can come to understand the reality of our mind, beyond the distracting play of thoughts and emotions. Through simran and then bhajan (listening within, directing our attention to the divine melody, the shabd) we can then withdraw further and further inwards until that divine love which is ‘beyond’ the mind becomes our reality. "

so Simran does mean repetition.

@ SIMRAN is defined as parrot fashion repitition of the five words given at initiation.
@ even though it says the words are to be repeated slowly and with attention
@ it is still mechanical repitition

Yes, that's true but that repetition is prelude to listening to divine
love which is the shabd. The mechanical repetition is in itself like
a child's toy given to distract him from the mind's diversions
until his attention turns firmly inside.

Then you start to disentangle yourself from the mind. Then you
know you are not that stream of thought that drones endlessly
inside the head. You stop reacting to every bit of trash seen
splashing down the sewer. You become the listener, the one
who, at long last, can smile at the antics of a motor-mouth.

That's when you start "taking yourself serious and answering your
own questions" rather than swallowing the mind's lies. In my view,
Um's description is very apt. It's the mystic's version too. Books are
overrated. They are at best pointers to an awareness that must be
gotten within.


@ Osho

YOU ... asked for initiation for YOUR reasons.
YOU ... were NOT asked to come by them.
THEY ... cannot live your life.

Everything you put before them will be answered by them with ... do your meditation.
Why? .... because the question originated in you and there is also the answer.

There is a huge difference between what THEY SAY THEMSELVES, what they say ot satsang and what the audience among themselves have to say about it.

Just listen to their question and answers for some days and try to understand HOW they answer questions put before them. Than you will understand what I wrote. And .. don't forget to listen to what is asked, how it is sked ... slowly you will see the pattern.

>>Um says
"you have to find out that meditation is not the same as mechanical, thoughtless repetition of names while looking ... TV of the world.
Meditation is taking yourself serious, your own questions .... guru's only remind you ... they are of no help."

Hmmm... interesting version of the teachings.
Just for the record the satguru is considered a central a pivotal figure in the teachings - very different from "they are of no help"

In fact the teachings state "Don't walk this path without a competent guru" <<

You see Osho, the help they give is refusing giving the answer, not getting involved with your problems. Breaking that habit of asking others to solve them and taking finally the responsibility for ones own life.

People can be very stubborn so the mind needs a lot of hammering.

Osho, one day his uncle said, that Psychiatrists and priests have nothing to give of them selves to you and if one is a good listener he also said the same of guru's.

Whatever there is to know, is to be found inside each and everyone of us .... it can only be known by meditation. That is all they say, all there is to say, all they can say. ... and that is what they do

Don't knock at THEIR door, it will not open YOUR door.


what you have is your own personal belief and YOUR VERSION of the teachings. There are as many versions of the teachings as there are followers. Each is following their own path, which they think is the right path.

How is meditation about "taking yourself serious and answering your questions" ?
again this is your version. Have you read this in any of their books?

Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 10, 2020 at 03:16 PM

Who holds a personal opinion or his own version of the teaching and who from the two of you is right should be amply clear from the below extract from a RSSB publication


"Baba Ji has made it clear that he is not here just to answer all our questions but to make us think! Once we are on the path, he wants us to go within and see and understand for ourselves, so that our faith is not founded solely on intellectual belief or conjecture but upon personal experience and knowledge. It is within ourselves that all questions are answered, that all hypotheses and conjecture translate into known fact."

Meditation and going within..... Any linkages??? And thus answering your own questions

Osho if you still don't get it..... Putting it bluntly it's Um on top.

"Don't knock at THEIR door, it will not open YOUR door." - Um

I agree with what you have written.
However, I am simply pointing out that these (what you and I might agree on) are NOT their teachings.

Nobody randomly knocked on their door.

regardless of their stance on advertising - it's all advertising in reality.

their books are adverts
their satsangs are adverts
their videos of the q&a are adverts

it's all marketing

and since most people are looking for ready made answers - they get taken in

They swallow it all - hook, line and sinker

What you say (and what I agreed with above) applies to Osho - and it's clear from his answers that it applies to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xggTJCCxFss
take this for example - Osho is not giving answers - he is getting the person to use their own brain


RSSB has a specific method and I agree the current master is changing things and breaking away from some of the previous dogma and blind following

but the books have not caught up yet - neither has most of the sangat

hence the immense confusion and the many versions of RSSB - everyone is making it up as it feels right to them.

Osho (above says)
"It is all rubbish you have collected from books...... from people....... "
"I am going to confuse you EVEN MORE......."


Osho ... you might be right.

Although his uncle gave in to the pressure of his western followers to ever make new books to keep their interest alive and to show that the teachings were universal, he was very much against "spreading the word" That is how i remember it

But ... his followers did the opposite!! ... and ... loved it ... spreading their new found happiness.!!

And those days have gone ... most bookshops to which people would pilgrimage, to find the last new mystical work of yet another mystic ... have all gone. The days of guru's, Indian classical musicians coming to Amsterdam are far behind us as also the fear for "sects", deprogramming etc etc.

It is my personal understanding that most of the changes were put on the table by the followers ... with disgust I do remember how they managed to get salads with the meals, and most of all started to show their devotion at the end of the year.

To me it appears as an religious multinational, an religious kingdom, that in fact is ruled by the management that hides behind "his wishes"

Years ago I woke up in the cinema and was no longer able to focus on the movie that was presented .... soon there after there was an incident and they told me that there was no place for me in the organisation.

How the change came to be I don't know, but I always had the feeling that local staff were the real doers, and in all cases they were the people that implemented the changes.

What I mean is ... you were not kicked out by him and on his order, but by the local staff that got more and more annoyed with you and used that incident with the phone and your reaction to make it a fact.

Why do I dear to write it in this way?! Well in the days of his uncle I once wrote a lettre about things that were going on here ... he wrote that he didn't want to interfere in petty squabbles as he called them.

You must know all these things ... it is the same litany in all communities It was there in seed form under the regime of his uncle and ot came full blooming under his nephew.

It is my personal opinion that they try to manage as best as they can what is put before them and if they felt that they could have left ... both of them would have done do.

What happened in 1990 I do compare with the movie "the last emperor" ... what impresses me is not the emperor, but the removal of the feudal mandarins and replacing them by officials in green uniforms. ... think of the management as the communist party, the staff as official members of the party and the the rest as the over zealous people in official positions.

It had to be that way ... I am glad I woke up an never have to face an angry sevadar, policing my behaviour.

Nothing that matters has changed since the days of the founder ... only the culure

"What I mean is ... you were not kicked out by him and on his order, but by the local staff that got more and more annoyed with you and used that incident with the phone and your reaction to make it a fact." - Um

He delegates and doesnt interfere after that.
Only issue with that is: never delegate unless you know that the people you have delegated to are honest and competent and can be trusted.

Can you imagine virgin owner Richard Branson delegating his business responsibilities to someone who has no customer service skills? His business would collapse in a moment.

not every business cares about it's customers.
take the company DPD - a delivery company based in the UK

Huge company doing a lot of business - but they dont care about the customer they deliver to.
result: 83% bad reviews.

their solution: fake the reviews and don't take ownership of the real reviews.
the real reviews are at dpd-local and they simply don't take ownership of it.
the reviews on the other ones are fake - you can tell. - lots of people who have only done 1 review.

check it out here
https://uk.trustpilot.com/search?query=dpd

money talks - once upon a time TrustPilot could be trusted - but not anymore
because they now allow people to PAY so they can remove the bad reviews
and also put on lots of fake good reviews like DPD has done

take a look at the graph

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.dpd.co.uk
looks really good: 83% excellent reviews.
however - it looks TOO good - so I investigated further

so I checked out this page (business transparency) and just look at the graph

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.dpd.co.uk/transparency

66,000 reviews n may 2020
take a closer look at they are "manual invitations" - people invited to review
(i.e. just made up) to drown out the real reviews which they have also deleted.

so most people get taken in.

it's the same now with RSSB - most people have no idea how the organisation is run.

If someone like me can get punched in the face and get thrown in the back of a pitch dark van - and they when I was no threat - but was peacefully walking to my car to leave, then there is really no limit to what they can do and perhaps have already done before.

clearly there is corruption and it's being ignored. Not acceptable in a spiritual organisation

The guru is answering questions and talking about honesty and non-violence and his own sevadars are thugs and corrupt and he is either unaware or chooses to ignore it. I suspect the latter.

Soon or later the cat will be out of the bag as Kirpal Singh was fond of saying.

Osho

In the royal household of the king, nobody is safe, not even the king himself for the power games that are played in his court.

You look upon the king as he is the one that delegates his power.

I look upon those who accept that power and act upon that. ... often without knowledge and consent of the king.

People can lose their lives by by misuse of legal power as we can see it happen by the police in the USA ... they are killed by police officers and not by the president or those who gave them that power or who made the laws.

You were thrown out by the "sangat police" that used an incident to justify their actions. They just had enough of you and were looking to get you out of the way .... at least that is what i understood from what you wrote here.

And to speak with the words of Wittgenstein:
Were one is not welcomed ... don't go there.

Osho, they are all human beings, even the guru.
Mystics teach that it is difficult for most if not all human beings to handle wealth; be it material, mental or spiritual without harming themselves and others.

Sartre is said to have had an argument with a judge whom he accused of having blood at his hands. The judge angered by that remark, aid that he was acting according the legal power that was given to him, in service of the country. Yes, yes, Sartre said but YOU were the one that accepted the job, knowing that it is part of the job to execute death penalty ... you could have become a backer.

Belief that Christendom model of co ed education is correct is foolishness of highest order, Only Sant-Mat / RSSB model of segregation of genders can save the world from sexual crimes.

Dada Vaswani, not Baba Vaswani

Isnt it a shame that millions of sangat, some of which are doctors and lawyers , believe that the clown baba of beas is a perfect living master. They foolishly surrender everything, without question, and believe that this self proclaimed guru has all the answers. What stops the sangat doing a simple google search on the headlines for the truth of this man . Sure they will be able to see the hypocrisy of what he says and what he does. Unfortunately they are under the devils spell and have been put exactly there for eons. They fall for the False promises of a paradise after death, which makes them no different to Muslim jiahdhis that believe in 40 virgins in the after life.

You can call them beliefs, you can call them rational explanations, you can call them justifications.

So long as people have some explanation that sounds to them logical, they take it as fact.

So many scientific sounding explanations for untested events, which are, without testing, unscientific, yet many hold these as facts and do not question further.

Don't believe your own explanations, don't buy others '. Believe your own reliable experiences. And believe scientific evidence.

And be willing to call a rationale explanation that is just your conjecture, what it really is: untested belief, self - serving belief. Not science.

40 virgins?
Can you just imagine the infighting?
And when it's Deborah's night and you are exhausted, and say, "Susan honey.. "

"IT'S DEBORAH, ASSHOLE!"

That's not heaven. That's the lowest region of hell.

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