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August 12, 2020

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Nice Brian Ji
I often ask myself how I would feel if death came upon me.

And that response changes.

In meditation I'm ready. But when I think about leaving Sam, I'm not ready. That forces me to give this to God, and that idea that God is watching over Sam helps a lot.

As for regrets, the list is simply too long for me to pay any attention to.

But if I can meet my responsibilities today, which is not always easy in my line of work, then I feel OK about going. Anyone can do what I do, and others are. But it's hard work. So just meeting the assignment, holding up the standards for care in my spot. And always being there for Sam and my family.

Interesting how the answer can change even day to day.

Hey Spence and others ready to go:
All of my Christian friends are ready to go to be with Jesus,.....but they don’t want to die! We Charan Singh Initiates are all ready to go where ever Charan is,......but come on, we must ALL admit, none of us really KNOW where he is right now, so until we know for sure, I don’t want to die in order to go where ever he might be. I have only seen him once, Inside, as I reported here, in the last 30 years since I was initiated, So that certainly hasn’t formed enough of a personal relationship between us that I am ready to trade my KNOWN for some unknown.
Now what about Osho Robbins,Manjit, and the rest of the Oneness believers here? Are you ready to die right now and ready to merge in the ONE to be one None, or completely annihilated?
Jim Sutherland

Actually we die every moment..because every moment is different.
When doing mindfullness troughout the day..,we can experience that.

No moment is the same..so what actually is dying??
I know what you mean Brian that's for sure..

But I realise this truth sometimes strongly..'We die every moment..
When we live mindfull from moment to moment..

Or we just'' are''...
There is no dead..

Just some ''thoughts''or realisations..
We do'nt know what dying is when it comes to ourselves..
Maybe a strange post ,but this came up in me..

@ Now what about Osho Robbins,Manjit, and the rest of the Oneness believers
@ here? Are you ready to die right now and ready to merge in the ONE to be
@ one, None, or completely annihilated?

Several stories in "Tales of the Mystic East" answer that question.
(ex. "Guru's Gun"). Fear trumps Oneness every time. Of course,
Osho, Manjit, and others may argue the point.

Firstly remove this notion that “God is looking after X”
You think God has nothing better to do?
God does nothing. Literally.
How do I know?
Because God is not a person, doesn’t have a personality or a mind. Those are needed in order to do.
God is just a label given to that which is beyond time and space. God is not a “thing” and cannot be pointed to.
Now about death:
You’re already dead. That which is born will die. The wave arises and merges again. The wave is not forever. It comes and goes.
What remains is that in which the wave arises. And into which it merges. The ocean.
Consider God to be the ocean in which you (as a wave) arise (are born) and merge again (die).
You are only as real as a wave.
The wave cannot possibly remain alive because it was never alive. And it doesn’t die either.
So I don’t die because only the ego creates a sense of “me” but in reality there is no me.
Nobody to be saved.
The unreal (everything in time and space) cannot be saved as it’s illusion.
The real cannot die because it’s not born.

This is all Nanak is saying in japji. Only the ONE remains forever. He just calls it by various names : IKK; onkar; sat; Naam; akal. All he says is:
There is one thing: it’s forever.
It’s beyond time (akal) and not born (ajooni) and stand all alone - doesn’t have an opposite - outside duality.
Next he just makes it clear in case someone tries to misinterpret.
Aad Sach, jugaad Sach....
Just means
Was TRUE (means eternal and changeless and without form) in the Beginning (there was no beginning and no end as beginning / ends are only in duality) just means: eternal.
That means no death.
You also don’t die because only the ONE is.
That is why it’s called the ONE.
Nothing else exists.
If someone or something else existed apart from the ONE, it’s no longer the ONE because now there is more than one.
Which is maya: the illusion of many. You exist only in maya. Everything in maya is born and dies and is unreal.
You are born and will die and are unreal.
You will not survive death
You cannot
Because there is no “I” that can survive.
The “I” is itself and illusion.
So there is nothing to die. Only the illusion of an “I” had to be recognised as unreal.

It’s not a matter of “are you ready to merge”
There is no “merge”
Merge is a process that happens in time and space.
In ONEness there can be no movement, no merge, no separation. Nothing.
No coming, no going.
You cannot exist as a separate entity. You don’t survive death.
Because you are just an illusion even now. A dream character
Nanak is saying “recognise the real and drop the unreal”
No meditation
No sadhana
Because those are rooted in the unreal.
They are an attempt to survive.
That’s why Buddha coined the term nirvana. It’s the recognition that NOBODY and NOTHING is.
There is not and cannot be a God.
Because there is only the ONE. But no god, no heaven. Nothing to merge into.
Accept your doom
And dance
That’s enlightenment

Hi Osho
You wrote
"You cannot exist as a separate entity. You don’t survive death.
Because you are just an illusion even now. A dream character
Nanak is saying “recognise the real and drop the unreal”
No meditation
No sadhana
Because those are rooted in the unreal.
They are an attempt to survive.
That’s why Buddha coined the term nirvana. It’s the recognition that NOBODY and NOTHING is.
There is not and cannot be a God.
Because there is only the ONE. But no god, no heaven. Nothing to merge into."

Because I cannot read your mind, and you cannot read mine, we are not one.

We are separate individuals.

Because I was born and will die, because family members have been born and die, life and death are very real, and the evidence for life and death is nearly infinite.

Because I cannot predict what will happen tomorrow , and neither can you, we have not transcended time. Time is real, and its proof is all around us.

Time, life and death, and separation from each other are our realities. And they are separate realities. Not One.

Concepts and talk are the work of the imagination.

Prove to me that this isn't so.

OshoRobbins,

Your explanation is appealing, but doesn't it lead to the conclusion that nothing matters? Commit any crime or outrage, because ultimately there's no victim or perpetrator? On the golf course of enlightenment that step of realization could be one of the front nine only or a sand trap.

@ There is not and cannot be a God. Because there is only the ONE.
@ But no god, no heaven. Nothing to merge into. Accept your doom
@ And dance That’s enlightenment.

Ah, that's a "dance" with dualism itself. A man who's fallen in a deep
well shouting "This is all illusion. It's not really a well. Nothing to climb
out of. I am already merged in ONENESS. There is no God. No suffering
either. Once you realize this, you can dance a jig in Nirvana."

There's that little catch: the act of "realizing". How do you actualize that
Nirvana within? Enjoy the bliss of "non-merger". Trapped in this tar pit of
illusion how do we get out?

By chattering about how we're already ONE? Well then, halleujah, we're
saved already. The water's rising in the well though. Nah, it just seems like
it. There is no well. No rope to pull us out. I'm really fine. Really!

Mystics say parapharasing, "Sure, there's only illusion at this level. We start
with illusion. It's all we have. But by listening to some words of illusion we
can find a rope to get out of the well. Even that illusory well that seems
to drown you."

"A man who's fallen in a deep
well shouting "This is all illusion. It's not really a well. Nothing to climb
out of. I am already merged in ONENESS. There is no God. No suffering
either. Once you realize this, you can dance a jig in Nirvana." - Dungeness

Dungeness - you have missed - and will continue to miss.
because you think I am just writing empty words.

I am writing from the realization.

But the realization is not a HOW.
There is no HOW.

The moment I give you a HOW - off you go again - merry go round
trying once again.

The trying is the issue

and the trying is rooted in bharm (delusion) of being separate.

As long as that delusion remains - you remain and the trap appears to be real.

So to realize it - the gurbani says : Go have a chat with the Brahm Gyani (Realized)

But a Brahm Gyani is not a title and is not a teacher either.

A Brahm Gyani is one who has realized.

But he cannot say HOW. The moment he says HOW - you chase the HOW - because it is the
MIND that seeks - is it greedy.
Just like now the mind chases money, things etc.
with the same greed it will chase God / norvana

The reason anyone seeks a method is this:

Everything you ever acheived was through EFFORT and DOING.

So now you think God also will be achieved through EFFORT and DOING.
All you need to know is the METHOD - and you are ready to start.

But you fail to see - this is all duality. Even your God is in duality

The real God is not in duality and cannot be reached.

WHO is trying to reach and WHY?

If you answer that, I can tell you why it is essential that you will fail to reach.
Your answer will be rooted in the EGO, in the "I" that sees some poteltial benefit.
Because it is greedy - it wants God - the greed is out of control.

God cannot be obtained like you obtain money - by working hard.

God is not earned - not by any method.

Hence gurbani says grace - because grace is impossible to earn

If you earn it - it's not grace.

"Your explanation is appealing, but doesn't it lead to the conclusion that nothing matters? Commit any crime or outrage, because ultimately there's no victim or perpetrator? " - Anami (Purush)

Firstly - I am not saying take those words and pretend they are true. I am not saying "fake it"

I am saying SEE it - realize it - until it becomes your reality - your perception.

As long as you have realised this ONE - there is no YOU left to commit a crime.
Only a separate being can commit a crime because he might want something.

victims / perpetrators will remain in the sphere of MAYA (illusion)
karma also exists in the sphere of MAYA.

Step outside of MAYA and then there is no karma, no crime, no me, no you. Only the ONE

meanwhile here - the drama continues

"We are separate individuals. " - Spence

You misunderstand the meaning of ONE.

nobody said that WE are one! clearly we are not.

of course we are separate individuals.

nobody is denying that.

This world is described as MAYA - meaning illusion.

Not forever.

The SACH that nanak is speaking about is not this world


Hi Osho
You wrote
"The SACH that nanak is speaking about is not this world"
No? What other world is it? Any other world from this one is a different world. Can't be One unless it is also this world. But it isn't. Here people really exist, they are born and they die. That is Sat.

Let me thank you for escorting me roughly our of your Satsang event! You are God. And I am God. And even God doesn't exist. Nor do you or I. Nothing exists. Oneness is nothingness. Hello? Hello?

Anybody home?

You are doing nothing wrong, even when you punch me. There is no wrong and right. I don't exist. Neither do you. The punch hurts a little. But that is an illusion. Pain doesn't exist. And as most readers can see, neither does my thinking capacity!

Spence, for someone who claims some mystic experience, your understanding is very limited.

This is Japji:
aad sach ( from the beginning, IT (One) was Sach) - this is Nanak's definition of Sach = eternal.
Jugaad sach (throughout the ages = Sach) : the ONE will remain the same for all time
Hai bhi sach (is sach now)
Nanak hosee bhi sach. Will be sach forever.

so you can say "this world is sach" all you like.
without any understanding of what sach means.

Charan singh himself has also said the same. He said "How can this world be true (sach) when it will end?

True = eternal.

clearly you cannot grasp this simple idea.
you can choose to agree or disagree, but before that you must at least understand.

at the moment you do not understand this:

Sach = true = eternal = changeless = outside of time / space = formless = cannot be seen

the above is not my definition. it is the gurbani definition. even the one you claim manifests inside you
understands this well. why don't you ask him?

if the outer gurinder knows this, hence says there is no time / space and that he cannot take you anywhere,
please explain how the inner gurinder can be so ignorant that he doesn't even know this?

whats the point of having an inner radiant form of the master if he cant even educate you on the basics?

the gurbani also says:
Who has died?
nobody dies, nobody ii born, only the eternal is true: go ask the brahm gyani.
I can refer you to the shabd if you doubt this

it is necessary that you don't and cannot agree with the gurbani.

It cannot be otherwise.

If you already agreed with it, there would be no point in reading it.

The gurbani is saying: you have it all wrong: you take this world to be true and the ONE to be false.

The gurbani tells you to ponder and think over what it says.

clearly you have never read or understood anything.

which is exactly why I say that no amount of "meditation" or "Simran" or repeating some words can ever get you to enlightenment. You have been doing this for decades, and have the radiant form within.
Yet what good is it? you have no understanding at all about the nature of maya, versus oneness.
what good is the radiant form?

is it just there to look good? like an ornament?
how come it doesn't even give you a few words of wisdom?

With words we can never speak truth.
Nor REALLY understand one-another
I think Osho speaks truth
I think Spence speaks truth
It is all truth spoken in different ways..
Even experienced in different ways..


Hi Osho
I'm not sure why you would quote Nanak if you don't believe in such things as God, the eternal, in Spirit, the soul, etc. If you are a nihilist why quote spiritual literature?

Your definition of Oneness is really the definition of nothingness, nihilism. You don't believe all things are One, you believe nothing that exists is real, because it isn't One. There is a great deal of nobility and stoicism behind that belief, but like all beliefs of the mind, it has its dark side.

I'm not sure why my spiritual experiences must coincide with your interpretation of spiritual writings, some you don't believe them anyway. You don't believe in realms of spirit. Yet you quote spiritual mystics.

My experiences do coincide, as far as I understand them. These writings resonate with my experience. And they give me great peace and joy. But if they didn't I wouldn't spend two minutes on them. If you are traveling, maps are useful. Maps are reassuring. Maps are hopeful. Otherwise they appear as nothing more than a very repetitive form of abstract art and of limited interest, if any.

Someone who doesn't believe that France exists would hardly spend their time referring to maps of France, as of they knew how to interpret them. Unless to say these are the works of madmen. But we are talking about the French. Perhaps there is some truth there.

@ The real God is not in duality and cannot be reached.
@ WHO is trying to reach and WHY?
@ God cannot be obtained like you obtain money - by working hard.
@ God is not earned - not by any method.

Actually I agree with that. The methodology imparted by the
stage actor is a toy for children. But toys, and games too, are
essential for willful children.

@ Everything you ever acheived was through EFFORT and DOING.
@ So now you think God also will be achieved through EFFORT and DOING.
@ All you need to know is the METHOD - and you are ready to start.

A child is immersed in his toys. If you tell him him/her her his wooden
sword has no real value, you'll get tears or maybe a kick in the shin.
But one day a child discards the toy. A realization sets in. The illusion
vanishes. Was it though some purposeful effort? Some quantum
effect in consciousness itself?

Mystics say paraphrasing, "Sure, there's only illusion at this level.
The child starts with illusion. It's his entire world. But by playing with
toys, stubbing his toes, exploring the world within himself, he
mysteriously begins to grow . One day he leaves those beloved
toys in the closet."

Was he trying to find God? Did he frantically look for a rope to
pull himself out of some well? Seek out a swami to teach him
spirituality? No, it was all a child's game before grace brought
him home. He just forgot where he lived.

"I'm not sure why you would quote Nanak if you don't believe in such things as God, the eternal, in Spirit, the soul, etc. If you are a nihilist why quote spiritual literature?" -spence

I quote nanak because I am saying exactly what nanak is saying.

Nanak is not a believer in god.

nanak explains that only the ONE is.

I say the same.

but because the ONE has no shape or form and is beyond time and space
(all of which nanak says)
it is the same as saying that the ONE doesn't exist - because things you can't see - you call non-existent

I could say god does exist - outside of time and space - and is the only real existence.
but you don't call that real. you only call 'real' what you can see.
nanak doesn't. he calls 'real' what cannot be seen.


"Your definition of Oneness is really the definition of nothingness, nihilism. You don't believe all things are One, you believe nothing that exists is real, because it isn't One. " - spence.

You mis-understand.
Nobody believes that "all things are ONE" - it's a ridiculous statement

Nanak doesn't believe all things are one.

Nanak says all this is illusion - not real
and that the ONE is real.

you mis-understand nanak's position.

and mine.

anything in time and space is unreal
even charan says that.
why doesn't your inner guru?
I can understand that you misunderstood
but surely your inner radiant guru understands

Hi Osho
You wrote
"Nobody believes that "all things are ONE" - it's a ridiculous statement"

But they are. Look around you. Everything is part of the One creation, and the One creation, however much of it you can see and understand, is part of everything.

We are all of the same stuff. The same life that breathes in you, breathes in me.

"One who realizes the Guru's Shabd
Is a yogi whose inner Lotus is in bloom.
When he dies while living
He gains complete understanding of all things,
And his heart moves with compassion for all.
He receives honour, O Nanak,
And identifies himself with all life. "
Adi Granth: 940

Osho
The Sunn... The great void, is in everything here. Everything you can see contains it. Everyone you see has it within them. It isn't only somewhere else. But there are other places right here that you don't see that are also sunn. So it is all truth. Everything you see was always here and will always be here, just the form changes. And even the form is made of the eternal... Just as we are made of atoms, to use a more relatable example. Life is real and death is real. But these aren't the whole story. But what we see is really here. But so is what we don't yet see. Learning to see is the journey.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"But one day a child discards the toy. A realization sets in. The illusion
vanishes. Was it though some purposeful effort? Some quantum
effect in consciousness itself?"

To call it an illusion is also a toy. And that too, still be discarded one day.

@ Nanak says all this is illusion - not real
@ and that the ONE is real.

I believe mystics use the word "mithya", which has a more
nuanced meaning than just illusion. The physical things per
se are illusory but the experiences of them are not. So the
pain they can engender to the afflicted is very "real".

@ I could say god does exist - outside of time and space - and is the only
@ real existence. but you don't call that real. you only call 'real' what you
@ can see. nanak doesn't. he calls 'real' what cannot be seen.

Mystics would demur that the experience engendered is "real"
even if the causative agent is illusory and unreal. It's mithya.
You treat the adverse symptoms of spiritual maladies (and
physical ones too) to relieve pain even if the causes are not
understood, invisible, or pegged "unreal".

Nanak's methods are rooted firmly in healing spiritual sickness
not in semantic debates about oneness.

Dungness,
Interesting ''mithya''is different from material..
Experience..? Undergong?
Nothing ''material''..
In vipassana meditation one ''feels'' as well bodily experiences..,
as well what happens IN the body or trough the body..
Sometimes one can feel body as being ''starstuff''..
Also emotional feelings not material..
Mithya..is ....what we feel..??

Feelings and emotions..are different and somewhat crosses eachother..

It is difficult to express myself with words.
Especially in a different language..

Mithya..''experience..?undergoing..?''
I looked it up..but did not become wiser.

@ Mithya..''experience..?undergoing..?''
@ I looked it up..but did not become wiser.

I can't pretend to grasp it all either. Here's an interesting explanation
by Ishwar Puri in which he talks of mithya on pages 32/36.

https://www.ishanews.org/media/transcripts/eng/Illusion_or_Reality.pdf

Thank you Dungeness. A beautiful essay by Ishwar Ji!

Thank you Dungness,I liked to read the pages from 32 /36 indeed especially talking about the mithya...and the difference with maya..
It ‘s very clear now..
Enjoyed that reading!
🙏💕

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