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July 14, 2020

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I don’t understand what Osho means by this,

“Yet GSD is saying clearly that he is already the ONE. So the old teachings have to be dropped.”

Anyway, this was my favorite video so far (012). It makes perfect sense. I think GSD should get a trophy for most progressive guru of the year.

This is clearly a very different way of explaining Sant Mat. A lot of people may not like it for that very reason but it’s the first thing that’s made sense to me in long time. ONENESS. 🧘‍♂️

Hallofookinlooya Brian. At last something much clearer re the One and the Soul from GSD. Thanks Osho for pointing me to it!
Thus far I’ve only watched the video for the few minutes you indicate. GSD never mentions the mind which is interesting. I felt good when he said ‘The moment you see yourself as the soul then you will never see yourself as separated’. I.E.The SOUL or SOUL is not a separated entity. Been going on about this for years. What GSD needs to do now is clear up all this dogma associated with the teachings as well as the cloud over his financial dealings!
Goodonya Osho.

What GSD needs to do now is clear up all this dogma associated with the teachings as well as the cloud over his financial dealings!
Goodonya Osho.

Posted by: Tim Rimmer | July 14, 2020 at 09:00 PM

Sometimes I think the reason he hasn’t talked more about the financial drama is because it might get other people into more trouble. I was in a very complicated situation when my dad went to prison for wire fraud. I had his full power of attorney at the time. Of course, I didn’t even work with my dad on his business deals... it was just a really bizarre series of events. Anyway, he’s my dad. So that changes the dynamics of how you handle something. What I mean is, I didn’t do anything unethical at all, as a matter of fact with his POA I cut a deal for him to greatly reduce his sentence but I had to remain quiet about a lot of stuff. Crazy thing is my dad didn’t really appreciate it. I mean I’m sure he’s happy that he only served 18 months instead of 20 years but he wanted to be found not guilty... and that’s where (I’m going to omit a lot of critical info here that would help this make a lot more sense just because I have to) I couldn’t talk about it to him or anyone else. It was one huge complicated, miserable, thankless mess.

I have no idea what is happening with the Singhs and Dhillons but when families are involved it gets really, really sticky because you want to protect people as much as you can. Even when they’re wrong.

@ A person sitting down and meditating is obviously trying to attain something,
@ so he obviously believes he is separate and has to meditate to merge.

Right, but, listening closely, I think mystics say the goal is simply
to expand awareness of who you are. You're not trying to attain
that which you already are. It's not a separate drop trying to
journey somewhere to merge laboriously into the ocean. The
drop never left the ocean. It's simply contracted awareness of
it. It's embraced itself as only a drop. It's become trapped in
its own metaphor.

Furthermore, it's effortless. But, the "drop" has bought into the
game, and gives itself some chores to attain salvation. It nods
piously to a stage actor and sets off with gusto to follow the
prescribed course to make it home. He looks hard for those
wondrous inner regions. It is, after all , one of the chosen. Pity
the poor fool who isn't.

Meanwhile, the game continues. One day we seek a way out
of all games. They slip away like glass from the hand. See, it
wasn't hard.

He is a crook, still old illiterate indians are crazy over him, including my own relatives.

Man this guy makes a lot of sense.

I mean compare this to bullshit hyperfalutin analysis of these Buddhist masters. This is just plain talk. Clear as day. If there is someone that can express these incredibly deep concepts any more clearly I’ve yet to see it.

Where is all this religiosity like GIHF that everyone on here consistently bangs on about like a bunch of rabid jackals?

Just clear wize words.

Long live the magnificent 7

Man this guy makes a lot of sense.

I mean compare this to bullshit hyperfalutin analysis of these Buddhist masters. This is just plain talk. Clear as day. If there is someone that can express these incredibly deep concepts any more clearly I’ve yet to see it.

Where is all this religiosity like GIHF that everyone on here consistently bangs on about like a bunch of rabid jackals?

Just clear wize words.

Long live the magnificent 7

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 15, 2020 at 03:58 AM

Sometimes it feels like you went into Disney World and graffitied the Magic Kingdom in order to draw more attention to it.

Osho,

How can you interpret GSD's message as...

"Anything that enhances the sense of a ME doing something (meditation or seva) is part of the delusion that keeps me stuck in maya and identified with a separate self so cannot possibly help in the realisation of the oneness"

...when there are other recent Q&A's where GSD advises on the practice of meditation before an audience of sevadars thanking him for seva?

People are so competitive and impatient, could it be he's only trying to shape attitudes, so they don't burn out in the first five minutes of simran?

He is saying all the wisdom of Ishwar Puri but without reading the book " A Year Without Food "
He has improved his English, good for the organization.

He should answer this query.
When Baba Sawan Singh was in his service, one day due to error of his junior staff, dynamite lace was lit before time , when Baba Sawan Singh came to know about this he rushed towards the dynamite planted to extinguish the lace of dynamite. When he reached near dynamite lace, by some miracle it was already extinguished.

@Sonia
What I mean by "old teachings" is the duality teachings.
If you read the context around the statement - I am talking about the same issue that GSD is raising.
"The question of separation or WANTING TO GO BACK"
Clearly he is saying there is no separation and no "going back to merge"
That was the only point to the statement.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to imply that I am making some negative point about GSD or this video. On the contrary I congratulate him on making this so clear. Previously such statements get missed because you cannot REWIND and listen back and you can just as easily deny he even made the statement, because as humans we hear only what we want to hear.

Clearly GSD is giving out the duality "do, meditate, focus" etc teachings at the same time. The reason is that if you don't get this - then you have to go the long way around.
But you will arrive at the same point - that all is ONE.

"You're not trying to attain that which you already are.
It's not a separate drop trying to journey somewhere to merge
laboriously into the ocean."
- Dungeness

The teachings are that YES - YOU ARE SEPARATE
The teachings state that you came from GOD - that you are a DROP of that ocean
but have become separated and are now covered with dirt (the 5 : lust, anger, greed etc)
so now you have to MEDITATE and become pure again and through the process of meditation
you will leave the physical body (your soul will leave) and step by step you will merge.
You will go to the ASTRAL where you will MEET the master and he will accompany you onto the
higher regions. Then you go to the causal world, then PAR BRAHM.
Finally you reach MAHA SUNN the region of intense darkness where even your own light
(which is the light of 12 suns - fucking bright) is not enough to SEE (must be blind as a bat)

only the accompanying guru has greater light and you are able to cross over to ....... (wait for it)

TAH NAA....... (drum roll......) SACH KHAND
where you meet with the one and only SAT PURUSH
etc .... do I need to go on....?

Those are STILL the teachings given at initiation.

With good reason of course - the aspirant already believes this - and is not ready to hear anything else.

Anami asks, quite rightly

How can you interpret GSD's message as...

"Anything that enhances the sense of a ME doing something (meditation or seva) is part of the delusion that keeps me stuck in maya and identified with a separate self so cannot possibly help in the realisation of the oneness"


Anami, You are quite right.
He does both.

That interpretation is mine. If the meditation and seva is done in a spirit of
"it is not MINE and I am doing it only because action is unavoidable"
rather than "Look what a great act I have done" - which is a trap for the ego.

It's like in the good old days when I used to ask a question (well, start a debate to be more accurate) at the mic - it was an action without a goal. I was simply entertaining myself.
not trying to achieve or attain anything - or get agreement.

However most followers WANT to find the truth - so are TRYING to achieve or attain despite what the guru says. They simply ignore those two minutes of wisdom because it doesnt fit in

Those are STILL the teachings given at initiation.

With good reason of course - the aspirant already believes this - and is not ready to hear anything else.
Posted by: Osho Robbins | July 15, 2020 at 02:16 PM

It seems the guru really is trying to dumb it down or SMS the teachings. In a way I think what he’s saying may seem more simple but it’s also more sophisticated. It takes out the more “superstitious” fanciful descriptions that probably made better sense to simple villagers decades ago.

vinny writes

He should answer this query.
When Baba Sawan Singh was in his service, one day due to error of his junior staff, dynamite lace was lit before time , when Baba Sawan Singh came to know about this he rushed towards the dynamite planted to extinguish the lace of dynamite. When he reached near dynamite lace, by some miracle it was already extinguished.


Which query?
You have just told a story
how is that a query? What specifically is the query?

@ The teachings are that YES - YOU ARE SEPARATE
@ The teachings state that you came from GOD - that you are a DROP
@ of that ocean...

Clearly, or not so clearly, that's a metaphor. The soul is ineffable so
that's a reductive attempt to explain kinda, sorta what it's like. A
story for children. And we're all children at this level.

@ so now you have to MEDITATE and become pure again and through
@ the process of meditation you will leave the physical body (your soul
@ will leave) and step by step you will merge.

Yes., you give a child a toy and a set of rules to play with in the
beginning. It keeps the child distracted and outta trouble while
awareness improves. The real progress is within as the inner master
guides and redirects attention inward.

@ You will go to the ASTRAL where you will MEET the master and he will
@ accompany you onto the higher regions. Then you go to the causal
world, then PAR BRAHM....

You don't "leave" the body physically as the imagery might suggest.
You "go" to the astral region only in a metaphoric sense of expanding
awareness. You're still in your meditation room. But, you could merge
with the inner master smack dab in the middle of that room.

The master you "meet" there is yourself... the inner master within you.
That's our real identity. We are taking our self back home. In fact,
we're already there. We've just expanding our awareness to realize
it.

Just clear wize words.

Long live the magnificent 7

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 15, 2020 at 03:58 AM

Just FYI, it’s spelled “wise”. You always misspell it. :) English isn’t your first language but you have a really good handle on it.

Also, I still have no clue who the magnificent 7 are. People keep referring to the Magnificent 7 and I keep asking about it and no answer. Seriously, I for real have absolutely no idea what that is. Anyone???

In a way I think what he’s saying may seem more simple - Sonya

There is a MAJOR difference between the old and the new paradigm

old:
The purpose of satsang is simply to educate and encourage the initiate to meditate
so it's a theoretical and intellectual exercise that anyone can do. requires no qualification.

new:
Satsang is the method - the thing itself that facilitates the transformation

Kabir was discussing with a pandit and
Kabir says
Tera mera manua kaise ikk hoi rai - how can your mind and mine be one?
mein kehata hoon akhan dekhi - tu kaitha kagaz ki likhein
- I say what I realise (See / experience) - you say whats written is scriptures
Kabir goes on:
"When I explain - people are set free"
"When you explain - they get trapped even more"

This is the point. Only a realised person speaks from his heart and KNOWS
the rest are just explaining ideas and theories

The purpose of satsang is to awaken you to the truth - not trap you further
The purpose is to set you free by showing you how to discover your true nature
which is eternal .
That which is not eternal is unreal - maya
and not our true nature - our true nature is eternal
the trick is how to realise this - so it's not just a theory

Meditation / abhyaas is important. A student of 5th grade can say I am one with Linux Operating System. It doesn't make him inventor of Linux, nor he will make any software in Linux. Just saying anything has no value, what U G Krishnamurti calls "empty words".

@S. ref your enquiry about the magnificent 7.

I can only hazard a guess. But it doesn’t make contextual sense.

Only Georgy porgy can give a definitive answer.

He first used that expression to refer to the bullies who attacked me at Haynes Park which has been written about extensively because I posted the whole incident here on Churchless with the kind assistance of Brian Hines who made it the subject heading of a number of blog posts.
For some strange reason Georgy Porgy supports the actions of those bullies and called them the magnificent 7.

Why he continues to use that phrase out of context now is beyond me.

He must have his own reasons.

GSD is just regurgitating mainstream Sikh philosophy. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but he hardly ever says anything original.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTRTtYUONgs

There are Sikh teachers more eloquent and ethical than GSD.

@dungeness and the Metaphor argument.

I will keep this as clear as I possibly can.

1. We all know it’s a metaphor in the sense that we don’t meet a physical master or we don’t physically leave the meditation room.

2. We DO have a soul. You have one. I have one. Georgy has one. Brian has one. The guru has one. These are the teachings.
Can I ask a question?
Is the soul of the guru any different from the soul of you and me and the initiates?
Please explain how.

3. Back in the days before GSD, Charan Singh days. I remember and still have recordings of the satsangs at the local centre. Those were done by sohan Singh, Harjit Singh, gurchetan Singh, Sardara Singh, surinder Singh, lakha Ram, Flora Singh. These are all well known punjabi satsang preachers from the 80’s and early 90’s.
All of those speakers were considered by the general sangat to be advanced souls. When they spoke it was considered to be from their inner experience, not book knowledge. In fact the general sangat would talk to them about their inner progress and ask questions in private meetings. Harjit Singh is from my village in the Punjab and my father and I had long chats with him in southall in his house.
Let me make it clear. They all talked about the purpose of meditation. Nobody talked about realisation or the ONE.
This is what was explained and I have recorded audios, and even some recorded videos.
a) you meditate and the Surat becomes centred at the third eye centre. Your body becomes numb. You see flashes of light and you hear the shabd. That is the purpose of meditation.
b) you now feel a pull and your soul will be dragged by the sound, out of your body and into the astral region. The first of five regions. Of course you are still physically sitting in your meditation room. But your soul is now in the astral region.
The astral region is not a physical place obviously. it’s where you go every night in your dreams. What you think becomes manifest in your dreams.
c) here in the astral region, you will (your soul will) meet with the guru who initiated you. He will welcome you to the start of your spiritual journey. From this point onwards the guru will be your constant companion on the inner journey as you explore the astral region and meet Niranjan (the lord of the first region).
Most spiritual characters from the past including Buddha and Krishna never went beyond the astral or the next region (causal) as they were deluded and thought they had reached their true home. However, your guru knows this is just the first region and and he takes you on to the second region.
I could go on. Read “The tigers fang” for a very detailed description of how the author meets the lord of every region with his guru. Written by Paul Twitchell who started the eckankar organisation which is similar to RSSB but has its roots in kirpal Singh who was Twitchels guru.

b) you continue on to the causal then go to par brahm. You go beyond the mind. Finally you get to bhanwar gupher. not sure of the spelling. Some reference there to the whirling caves and the region of intense darkness. The guru then takes you to Sach Khand. He introduces you to Sat purush the supreme being of the inner universe.
You bow at his feet as your spiritual journey is now complete.
This is getting long.., so I will continue in my next comment.

RSSB has changed. A bit like when the curtains are drawn away and Dorothy and her companions see the wizard of Oz.
The show is over. They can see he is just a man. No wizard.
In the same way the curtain has been drawn away in Sant mat.
Well specifically in RSSB. In science of spirituality it’s still drawn.
GSD claims only to be a guide and a teacher. Not a powerful godman.
RSSB previously taught
“Gur ko manukh mat jaan. Yeh hai satpurush ki jaan”
Don’t consider the guru to be a man - he is the darling of sat purush.
“Gur ko manukh janti teh nar keheye andh”
Those who consider the guru to be a mere human, they are blind.

So now in 2020, things are very different.
The speakers are just giving talks based on the books. They are not considered advanced disciples.
There have been major scandals regarding the guru and the guru no longer claims perfection.

Bullies are running the satsang centres and the guru, even though he is aware of it, chooses to ignore this. Well he only claims to be a human so it’s understandable.

RSSB is now like a dead religion. Blind followers shrouded in dogmatism. Holding onto a belief as if it’s a proven truth.

The incident that happened to me was a real eye opener because I saw the very people who I considered friends and also some relatives who follow RSSB took the side of clear bullies instead of standing up for what is right.

Once moral standards deteriorate to that degree, it’s time to think. How can this be spiritual?

Once you tolerate and accept bullying as normal and acceptable, you’re on a slippery slope to destruction.

When RSSB followers can accept bullying from sevadars, there is no longer any spiritual benefit to attending a place that doesn’t uphold even the most basic of moral standards.

What benefit can be obtained when the followers cannot even discriminate the actions of bullies who are given free reign to act as they please with no consequences? Any organisation that tolerates that, is heading for disaster.

The followers not only tolerate it, they support it. So it’s okay to teach high moral standards but have the sevadars act illegally not just immorally?

Double standards.

Most of the Christians know in their heart that the values of socialism and welfare state present in the books of H G Wells , Antonio Gramsci and Jesus Christ himself are absent in their society, so they turn towards Sant Mat. What to say about others / non Christians, they were subjects of British Empire. When organization like RSSB becomes famous they try to attack it by rubbish arguments and not logical arguments of educated society. Rubbish argument - these are ancient values present in our books !! But those values are in your books and do not operate in your life , that was the reason you became subjects of British Empire.


Meditation / abhyaas is important. A student of 5th grade can say I am one with Linux Operating System. It doesn't make him inventor of Linux, nor he will make any software in Linux. Just saying anything has no value, what U G Krishnamurti calls "empty words"
- Vinny

The question what is the meaning of meditation / abhyaas

Repeating five words parrot fashion is a superstitious ritual

The japji and gurbani says "Vichar" or contemplate
That's a whole different matter - and if that is mediation - I wholeheartedly advocate it.

Japji makes a statement then says "contemplate"
The meaning os "jap" is not just to repeat - it's also to contemplate or think deeply

The bani says "Ram Ram sab koi kehai" everyone recites "God, God"
by reciting realization cannot happen.

realisation can only dawn from correct understanding - not from word repitition

Hi Osho,

I’ve heard general references in comments regarding what happened to you at Haynes Park but I never got the full story.

I’m so sorry that happened to you. That’s very disturbing. Can you send me the link to the post about it?

"GSD is just regurgitating mainstream Sikh philosophy" - Van Cliburn

Then Van shows a video of Satpal.

I have met satpal - he is not mainstream sikhism.
He is quite radical but he tones is down a little (well a lot) when he is at the gurdwara

a bit like what I did when I gave talks for RSSB back in 2002
like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8

this was my toned down version - but I am openly saying there is only the ONE
nothing to achieve, except realization.
Satpal teaches people to discover "Who they are"

He runs a two day seminar on the process - I have attended it.

Van Cliburn,
That Sick teacher is nice..,but also very cultish.
He thinks one has to grow hears and beards etc..

Baba Sawan Singh had told Ishwar Puri that America will become the axis of spirit. Many countries including America were colonies of British Empire but today America is 100 times powerful than Britain, other countries are still backward like they were when they were under British Empire.

Baba Sawan Singh was right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBnsYuNjsXE

@ Is the soul of the guru any different from the soul of you and me
@ and the initiates?

Frankly, I think mystics would counter: "Who cares? We're
trapped in a well looking for a friend... one with a rope
and in the end debates won't free us."

@ Let me make it clear. They all talked about the purpose
@ of meditation. Nobody talked about realisation or the ONE.

The language and emphasis may evolve slightly over time
and audience receptivity but the goal remains the same.
Find the inner friend within who can pull you out of the well.

Osho,

I can't tell if you're casting Gurinder as the new Kabir or as the new Pope Pius XII?

@anami

I agree. This Oneness is surprisingly divisive.

I’m so sorry that happened to you. That’s very disturbing. Can you send me the link to the post about it? – Sonia

Actually I am not sorry. I am glad because it brought out the truth. It showed me a whole different side of the followers and the sevadars.
If a person does not have the courage and morals to stand by the truth – then he is not ready for truth anyway.

What happened was perfect. It perfectly showed the truth of where everyone involved is at.

You may this of interest. It was a week before the national satsang.
My last dialogue with the guru before the national satsang incident

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/08/osho-robbins-talks-with-gurinder-singh-dhlllon.html

This was Brian’s first Blog on the topic. I had emailed Brian while I was at the police station waiting to report the incident.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/08/rssb-volunteers-assault-someone-at-haynes-park.html

This is the report of DAY 1 (The Friday) when my phone got taken from me

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/08/osho-robbins-crime-of-the-century-at-a-rssb-haynes-park-satsang.html

This is day 2 – the events of the Saturday when I walked into Haynes park to peacefully attend satsang – and got attacked because I was supposedly “Banned”

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/09/shocking-tale-of-a-punch-in-the-face-at-a-rssb-meeting.html

it's a lot of reading with the comments - might make an interesting book

It's totally Laughable, I see the clown gurinder Singh dhillon really struggling with the concept of oneness. He comes across as a desperate man attemting to fool innocent people, who are barred from looking at other sources, that he is an all knowing guru. Firstly and surprisingly he says you have to do nothing , well that completely closes the door to surat shabad yoga meditation practice and what rssb stands for which is that it is a complete made up path to blindly suck people into a set of beliefs that then emprisons them. Also I find it astonishing how he can say he has experience of oneness when his interests and actions are totally about power , money and total control. Just look at his actions , 6000crore siphoned from over 16 companies , and his nephews in jail while he enjoys the spoils of their riches. It's also laughable that he has finally mentioned oneness when every Tom dick and harry has been speaking about this on you tube for many many years - has he started googling answers for help
and then putting his stamp of authority of this concept as his own to the blind sangat . Sangat up to the fraudster and con artist baba of beas.

"I gave talks for RSSB back in 2002
like this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7jTT8Nak8"

Posted by: Osho Robbins | July 16, 2020 at 04:50 AM

Regarding your video around 1:30 - 4:50

You share a story of Baba Farid, and how he showed a seeker that a true seeker for God must want it more than breath.

To me it sounds similar to when you were attacked. How did you feel, then? What was the only thing you wanted? You were in danger at that point. Perhaps Maharaj Ji wanted to give you a taste of the story you shared on Baba Farid? So that, for you the path could become more real.

On 6-23-2020 I had a gun pointed at me from a street gang banger.

And just earlier today around 10:41am another pulled two knives.

Both times, I wanted my breath.

Perhaps Baba Ji wanted the path to be more real for me too?

Just because someone SAYS something about Oneness does not mean they have realised it.
Anyone can say words.

What matters is what goes with those words. If you just pay lip service to those words then they are not real for you.

If a person still believes that “something must be done” to feel the oneness, then his understanding is flawed.

There is only the ONE thing and it’s everything and everywhere. Whether you agree or not makes no difference to the truth. Truth does not need your agreement.

For example 2 x 2 = 4.

If I disagree, it still equals 4.

As long as you believe you are an individual person and have an individual soul, nothing will get you to realisation. Nothing. No mantra, no meditation, no seva, no prayer.
How can “doing” anything get you to oneness, when “you” are the doer?
Anything that makes you proud enhances the ego and the “me”

Oneness is a whole different paradigm. There is no separate person or soul. So the question of karma, effort, doing, merging, begins good etc does not even arise. These are all concepts within duality.

Genetically, humans are 99% Identical to African Apes and Gorrillas. Only one percent of our genetic code distinguishes a human from a chimp.

Science proved long ago that we are all in the same family, from the same stuff of life.

We are one creation moving forward through time.

But you need religion to divide people.

OSHO thinks he and GUrinder and many others here, are the same ONE as GOD, but just need to realize it.

I think you ALL are mistaken.

It’s a mistake in Identity imagination.

Each of our ONE misidentity error, is that the “I” animating our present physical body, is another Astral body on a Mission to balance Karmas for our Causal BodIes, which are actually, our HIGHER SOUL SELVES, One of Many, other Higher Soul Selves, or Causal Bodies within the ONE God, but not now, nor ever, will become THE Complete God, in Totality, or in Sant Mat Terminology, Anami .

Each Higher Soul Self, or Causal Body is individual, and separated from each other. Causal bodies contain ONLY the Astral bodies of former lives lived in Charausi, The Wheel of 84, and are not the Totality of THE ONE and ONLY ONE.

Jim Sutherland

Hi again Jim
They inner regions are vast. If someone were to claim they had traveled the earth and understood all languages, and all the different cultures, we wouldn't believe them.

Now the inner regions actually contain this entire physical creation. No way anyone has a deep understanding on all those places.

I was given a simple path out. So that's all I can speak to.

Meditation is the practice of taking off our clothes, our layers. So we can become intimate and actually merge with the creative force of life and wisdom that is already and allways within us. That's the concept. And there are a few layers, but not so many.

We have emotions, ego, identity. Everyone has moments where they see beyond those, in contemplation. Simple contemplation is a form of unpacking, unlayering, withdrawal of consciousness to a higher pace of greater peace, awareness and understanding. We look at ourselves from the outside, but we already are from the inside. We've just gotten so used to looking outwards. But in any moment we loosen even a single layer, there is joy and happiness. We just need to become comfortable with spending time in that state of mind.

So the real path is very natural. It is our tendency to withdraw, but sometimes Trauma helps us break through our addictive thinking so we can return to that more natural state of contemplation.

When that happens there is natural movement.


At your consciousness how does one know whether you are connecting or uniting with the truth or connecting with the devil disguised as truth. You don't know !!!! . How do you know that you are not going further away from your destination with this pathetic surat shabad yoga, which is nothing but chanting blindly the names of entities you know nothing about other than you have been told to do so at an initiation by a so called guru. The truth is there is no path, just live your life and stop falling for these new age cults and all religions that make you feel so guilty and shameful of yourself. RSSB is a new religion , and rapidly and aggressively expanding by buying land using intimidating and bullying tactics by so called chosen sevadar. These poor farmers whos hard earned inheritance has been forced to be sold at below the market value, and not for getting the gullible who have left their entire inheritance to this savage cult. RSSB Instution is nothing but a front for huge criminal mafia, who exercise control by giving special privileges to influencal sevadars , yet keep others in slavery which they called seva - what a cunning mastermind plan by the devil

Uchit
The entire path is the inner journey. Yes, there is something ticking inside you. And you can learn more about who you really are. Science can help, but there is nothing like experience.

At every stage of our journey, we are there, ourselves, to witness our events, to experience that, and to test it: To return another day and see if things arevthe same or have changed. Reality testing, just like we do in this physical outer world, we can do with our own feelings, observations, and inner experiences. It's called personal growth. We should question our own thinking and investigate the sources of it, as part of our responsibility to live as responsible and helpful adults.

Can anyone be fooled? Yes, we are all ignorant. But our best chances of finding a personal truth is to both acknowledge all the reality we see, and to continue exploring. We are learning all the time. I know more today than yesterday and therefore think differently than I did. Personal truths are not transferable. Until you have experienced what I have, and vice versa, you and I will both be constrained, or liberated, but in all cases defined by our experience and our deepening interpretation of it.

No one is free of the problems of judgment, misunderstanding and limited awareness. So we keep exploring, learning, rethinking, growing.

What some organization is accused of has nothing to do with the path within me. The two things are entirely separate. The Maharaji and Gurinder inside me is part of me. Nothing at all to do with some organization in a completely different region of reality.

As for you judging my personal experience, you have even less information than I do I would expect your judgment to be much more flawed than mine since you have so little to go on. And the proof that I'm correct is your attempt to describe what is going on inside me. Unless you are clairvoyant, you are guessing. And guessing has a very high rate of error.

But your judgment about yourself and the people and organizations you deal with is probably much more accurate than mine, since they are not part of my daily life, as apparently they are a part of yours.

And I don't claim to know what you are thinking or why. That's your property.


@ Is the soul of the guru any different from the soul of you and me
@ and the initiates?

Frankly, I think mystics would counter: "Who cares? We're
trapped in a well looking for a friend... one with a rope
and in the end debates won't free us."
- dungeness

The reason I asked is:
It is the same. In fact there is no soul.
Anyone who says there is a soul doesn’t understand what ONENESS means.

Oneness means that nothing exists except the ONE.

If you live in duality then you cannot understand ONE.
Duality is separation and individuality

Hi Osho
If you really believe we are all the One, how can there be any death? How can the One exist separately from you and I, if we really are all the One? Yet we do die. But the creation was here before you and I and will be here after we die. And other people died long before we lived, and all the evidence suggests others will live long after we die.

. The creation goes on, separately from you and I? Then it is separate, and the One as a unity doesn't exist. We live in a duality. If we are the One we can't die. If the reality is that there is only the One.

If the One is merely a concept, than we do die and are separated from the One and each other. This is generally what all the evidence seems to point to. We are part of the one creation, but we live our separate and limited mortal lives. This creation is many lives, many beings, many different things, each with its own qualities and lifespan. There is no One thing that you can say is the true One that is our real state. It may be great but it isn't One.

Unless you have an eternal soul. That links the very mortal you to the very eternal One. Logically, if you are not eternal you cannot be the One which is. This reduces your notion of the One to a mere mental concept and not a reality. The One then may be something great, but it is a separate entity from you and I. Therefore calling that entity the One is untrue.

But if we have an eternal soul, we can say we are part of the One. That we are the One. That soul would be the only part.

If we actually die, then the One is an illusion and this creation filled with change is the reality. But if we have a soul, then this creation is the temporary expression of that all - encompassing One, of which we all are.

There can be no duality where the One is real. For then it is no longer singular.

@ In fact there is no soul. Anyone who says there is a soul
@ doesn’t understand what ONENESS means.

@ Oneness means that nothing exists except the ONE.
@ If you live in duality then you cannot understand ONE.

That's right. Without attaining totality of awareness, we
live in duality. That invalidates an assertion such as "there
is no soul" because it doesn't comport logically with my
(or your) dualistic notion of "ONENESS".

That's also why mystics say of the soul: "neti, neti" ("not
this, not this"). The "soul" we describe is an artifact of the
dualistic jail we're all imprisoned in. It's a toy block for
children. The child builds a house from several such
blocks such as "soul" and "oneness". Then he plays
games with them, builds skillful edifices, and finally is
ready to pronounce he knows their nature.

The term soul is just such a toy. You must follow the
mystic(or other) discipline to attain inner awareness
of the reality behind the symbol. Then you can bust
outta jail.

Oness and karma does that relate?
And what about free will?
All these theories fall away when we talk about oness
Actually we do'nt know shit!!!

There is only ONE Earth Planet. Yet, there are Many Continents within the Planet, Countries within the Continents, Cities within the Countries, etc. many within the One of Totality.

There are many Planets within the Universe, Many Universes within the Galaxy of Multiverses.

Yet, there is only One OSHO Robbins, one Jim Sutherland, and one Gurinder Singh Dhillan. Even GUrinder said on a recent Q & A we are each here because of our individual Karma, and can not live each other’s lives, and must work to balance our own individual Karmas by Meditation, and by making our own individual choices.

The Oneness Cult is in error. as is, all of its Teachers.

Jim Sutherland

@s*

Karma cannot exist in ONENESS because ONE means only ONE.
karma needs at least two.

"Sab Gobind hai" means - All is God
"Gobind bin nahin koi" - there is nothing else

There is no individual
no separate soul - All is ONE

this is the best way i can explain it

imagine you are sleeping on the bed.
and you are dreaming.
in the dream - many people are there
lots of things happen.
you are laughing, crying. Lots happens.
if someone said to you - in the dream
"This is not real - nothing is happening - it's all a dream"
you won't believe it. It will all seem real
because it is a characteristic of the dream - that it feels real while its happening.

YET - the truth is - it is not real. no people are there
there is just THE ONE - YOU in this case - lying on the bed, creating the whole dream.

so - it would be accurate to say - nothing is happening - nobody is born nobody dies
It's all a play of the ONE who is sleeping on the bed.

Enlightenment is like that - you have realised it is all a dream
if it ends - it's a dream.
If it is forever (eternal) it is not a dream - it is real.

That is what the gurbani actually says

the reason people cant understand it (in particular sant mat followers)
is because they give the gurbani a different meaning and once you do that
you can no longer understand the true meaning.

once you have the idea of NAAM and SHABD as an inner melody to be heard,
the gurbani can no longer set you free because you believe the only way to freedom
is to contact the shabd. You will now spend your life doing that.

whereas the gurbani is setting you free - NOW! not after some practice of meditation.

once you make enlightenment a "future event" - something that will happen "one day"
then you are trapped because that "one day" will get closer but never come

The realised person knows that there is nothing you can DO because the DOER is the barrier.
the sense of "ME" is the very trap.

to the person listening, oneness seems like just another theory - another idea.

it's not - it's an awakening that happens - and the truth is now an open book
not some theory or idea.

English is one with Maths, Maths is one with History,History is one with Chemistry, Chemistry is one with Linux, hunger is one with food ,we should only study the digit 1 / one and its deep meaning within 1/ one hour or 1/one day . Only a foolish would believe this non sense of oneness.

Thank you Osho!
This is entirely true imv..
I love ''my path''..
Anyway anyhow..
Especially when I feel so much love.

<3
Jim the oness cult is not in error..
I do'nt see that so..because,
there is love..

Osho
Then there is no death, in this reality of the One.

Zero death. That means we are, as that One, eternal. You don't have to call it Soul or Spirit, but it is an eternal principle by your statements. Call it what you like.

As for stating there is no future point of reaching that inner place, the moment you "realized" your Truth didn't happen yesterday. Didn't happen at all in the distant past. And for those who haven't realised yet, that moment of realization may be in their future.

Progress is a real thing. But of course our awakening is to a reality that already exists. But our journey to that has a beginning and a destination.

Otherwise there would be no point of realisation.

We are on a journey, there are steps and stages, and indeed a destination. Though once you reach the mountain top in an instant of looking around what do it see? Another higher peak, on another mountain, in the distance! To which I say, with a grunt, and a sarcastic smile "typical." Just the kind of bullshit Gurinder loves to pull.

To get to what you are defining, Osho, is a process, whatever that is. It is as much undoing as doing. Remodeling as modeling.

Especially if anyone else wishes to go there.

Of course this notion that a good teacher has reached the destination and mastered the entire field... This is a false notion. We tell it to our children so they are loving and obedient to their teacher.

But speak to the star arthlete and the masterful professor. They are the most scrupulous students, constantly exploring new avenues for progress.

This Eastern concept that you can master the whole..That you can know it all, That there is a finite whole that you can entirely master, this is for children.

Even a math concept takes time to learn, though the concept was always the same. And once you learn it and Master it, others you didn't know about start becoming vague possibilities for exploration.

But the reality of this creation is far more than a concept. And our place in it is in motion.

To claim progress isn't even possible seems very wrong. To claim there is no hope seems very wrong.

But some folks don't like hope. They can't stand the idea that what they want is currently outside their grasp. That there is even a goal. That there is a world beyond their limited thinking, a world greater than their tiny but inflated ego ; that there is any possibility they could be wrong, any possibility their thinking is indeed limited.

Personally, I think it's much healthier to acknowledge that wisdom is beyond our reach, but we experience it in the effort of growing and moving towards that.

In that endeavor, my limited experience shows me there is nothing but Shabd, in its various forms. And clinging to that mighty rushing stream of Shabd, we are pulled up into a greater awareness and understanding, but first and foremost of how vast and beyond comprehension reality actually is. Then we are happy to become lifelong students. That's the best possible role for us, if Truth is our objective, IMHO.

Selling education by schools, colleges, universities and sub - standard students that come out of them is one / 1 / oneness. That has destroyed society,masters of selling education and then making virtue of it by giving " scholarship " . What a joke !!

Yet which is that One which my teacher Baba Ji really describes?

Mr. Sutherland's and s*'s descriptions sound in line with the teachings.

Here they are (paraphrasing):
"God is One and everything created is a part of Him. He is also embedded within each, all the way down to an inanimate gain of sand."

"The One can never be put into words, only experienced."

"Please do your meditation." -every RSSB teacher

@ The Oneness Cult is in error. as is, all of its Teachers.

I think that's correct too until awareness gives us
a peep behind the real curtain inside.

Toto the dog in Wizard of OZ has just the nose for
stage actors. He pulls down the curtain to expose
the con artist behind it. You know, the one doing
voice-over from dog-eared books.

This from Gurinder resonates with me...

We can feel that divine essence within us.
We just need to experience it within ourself.
The moment you see yourself as the soul, that soul is of the divine essence.
We don't have to do anything,
We need just to feel that divine essence within ourselves.

Ishwar Puri - meditation is for our mind....not required by our soul

https://youtu.be/YByCNj5ohF8

@ The Oneness Cult is in error. as is, all of its Teachers. - dungeness

The is no oneness cult. You misunderstand the nature of oneness

The ONE is a definition
Everything within time and space (which means everything you can see or experience) by definition cannot be eternal because it changes.
So light is part of maya as is sound. Shabd.
According to RSSB the sound CHANGES. Anything that changes is not eternal. Regions are divided. Astral, causal, bhanwar Gupta, Sach Khand.
All within time and space.

Everything in time and space is unreal or maya.

Hence japji says
Aad sach jugaad Sach

Forever and eternal and changeless is the only true thing. Nanak calls it Sach
That is ONE .

If you can see it. It’s not it

If you can hear it, it’s not it.

If you can feel it, it’s not it

Cannot be grasped
Or described
Or attained

If you try to grasp or attain
You are deluded.

The whole idea of trying cones from delusion

Buddha gave up. Found nothing
Gave that “nothing” a name.
Nirvana.
Now everyone seeks nirvana
Another trap.

Everyone who understands it is nothing
Always fails to communicate this
The nothing becomes another something and the object of desire once again.

Everyone starts chasing the nirvana not realising there is nothing to chase.

Has anyone ever caught a rainbow?

Has anyone ever caught god or the one?

Impossible by nature.

No effort can succeed because you have reduced god to a thing.

Any name you give it is another trap

“ shabd”. “Naam”. All traps

Even “one” or “oneness” or “enlightenment” or “nothing” is a trap

All traps.

That’s what japji is saying.

Go beyond seeking. Is the message.

Give up just as Buddha gave up.

The giving up has to be complete

Give up everything - including yourself. Including your spiritual journey. Including seeking and finding. Including enlightenment and the ONE.

Give up your dharma, your goodness

Give up everything and embrace nothing.

Oneness means you disappear. No more “you”
Only in your disappearance does the ONE appear (even that is a lie because the ONE never appears as such)

The problem is language gets in the way. The moment you express truth it becomes another lie.
All scriptures are a lie because truth cannot be expressed in words.

In silence there was an inkling of truth but once you say it, even that inkling disappears and only empty words remain.

Hello Osho Robbins

agree with your definition that the names and rulers of the regions as stated in RSSB initiation and literature are within time and space - the ambit of the mind. But its also explained that the simran and shabd is to take us beyond this time and space / the mind's domain and beyond into that Oneness or Nothingness.

Baba Faqir Chand wrote the following in one of his essays titled "The Path of Hanging on the Gallows" -

"...Now I understand that all the lower centers (or inner regions from Sahansdal Kanwal to Bhanwar Gupha) are not the Reality. It is all phantasmagoria.
How did my delusion perish?

Firstly, this realization that I do not manifest anywhere, removed the darkness of my mind.

Secondly, when I ascend to the state of Light and Sound, I try to search out the object which sees the Light and listens to the Sound. But I fail to find its end. It is Infinite.

What did I understand - Have I attained some extraordinary powers by reaching that state? No. I cannot treat my own ailments. Neither I nor any other saint could and can do anything.

None on this earth can avoid His Will and neutralize the reactions of his deeds.I reached this conculsion that this, is all His Will. “ - Baba Faqir Chand


Spensor
Have you taken your own advice and really question and challenged these so called entities you call gurinder and maharaj ji inside you, or are you stuck at the light show they show you and so you cant move on from that trap. It would do you good to read up on faqir chand as he exposes allot of mystery around rssb and sant mat. Also the guru says the outside represents the inside, u fall for and surrender everything to the outside physical to get to the inside one. But if the outside one is a crook can you really trust the inside one ? Just may be these so called gurus are part of the trap of reincarnation just like a spider in a web. They say they have the remedy to free you yet they really send you back in the reincarnation cycle through guilt and judgement. The reality is you don't need their games and tricks and traps.

Uchit
Rather than opine about other people's experiences, why not accept them without judgment? Experience is just experience. You can argue about what it means, but not that it happens. Unless you are merely guessing. But you can always speak to your own experience. That is sacred. I honor it. It's yours.

People have many sides and it's unfortunate to see that some seem to get all the love and others all the scorn, for what appears to be arbitrary reasons. People are like that all over. It's part of the human condition, sadly. The Joe Smith you know may be different from the one I know, yet both relationships may be real.

What many have witnessed within are beautiful things. Your idea about Satan, Demons, heaven and hell, reincarnation, these are religious concepts. The Master inside me is just inside me, Uchit. That's a part of me. What others experience is for them. Life after death? Life before death? Meaningless talking.

As for the happenings at RSSB, I have no affiliation with that organization. The Maharaji in me, the Gurinder inside have no connection that I know of to the folks you read about in the press. That is the press' relationship. Mine is only to those people within me.

As for the guy on other side of the world and his financial habits, all I can say is I love that guy too, and will help in any way possible. If you will listen all the way through Baba Ji's video, towards the end someone asks him how to deal with someone who has fallen. Baba Ji lovingly points out that this may not be the time to tell them they have erred. But it may be the time to show compassion. Definitely it is that time.

I love that. That is what I believe.

My inner Maharaji represents every divine and loving sentiment, and for me is the source of great security, wisdom and light. He tells me not to judge others, and so I pass that on to you. Not that I'm a great practitioner of that sentiment of harmlessness and zero judgement, but I am an enthusiastic believer in it, and a student of it.

What is your source? What tells you right from wrong?

Osho Robbins,

I am glad to see you back brother.
Can you please post the link of your English translation of Punjabi discourse on "what is death" by Baba Ranjit Singh. I would also love to get in touch with you... please let me know how to contact you.

Thanks!!

@ Spence
>>The Maharaji in me, the Gurinder inside have no connection that I know of to the folks you read about in the press. That is the press' relationship. Mine is only to those people within me. <<

How come "those people that appear inside You" you love so much, look like those on the other side of the world and not just anybody else.....there must be some relation, connection.

@Daljit
simply email me on [email protected]

@Solomon
I like your reply.
you follow on by stating
"But its also explained that the simran and shabd is to take us beyond this time and space"

My response to that is: Is the simran (i.e. some words) beyond time and space?
clearly not.
is the shabd beyond time and space?
if the shabd is an inner SOUND - then by definition it is part of duality and within time and space
because ALL sounds are within time and space.

beyond time and space is equivalent to NO Attributes
so nothing you can point to is outside time and space.

so it cannot take "YOU" beyond time and space.

In fact nothing can take "YOU" beyond time and space.
What is "YOU" anyway? are you a separate entity (like a separate soul)
if your answer is yes - then you consider your soul to be part of duality.

the ONENESS view is - there IS no separate soul - no separate self - there is no YOU!

only an apparent you - a body and mind - all of which is going to end
because it is the dream (maya)

Actually here Baba Ji says we must put in effort to reach our objective spiritualily. About two minutes in.

https://youtu.be/GD9kaZnzvpM

About 6 minutes in Baba Ji says that people are seeking to unite with the Lord, each in their own way. Lord comes for everyone at death. He doesn't want to be separated from anyone. He always comes. But, he says, we may not recognize him. So that is why we develop that relationship with him in life.

Now, each person has their belief. But this is just to clarify that Baba Ji haa clearly stated the Lord comes for reach of us at death.


@ if the shabd is an inner SOUND - then by definition it is part of duality and
@ within time and space because ALL sounds are within time and space.

Yes, all physical sounds. Mystics say Shabd is a force beyond time
and space though. It manifests as as an audible sound at the
physical level and listening one-pointedly to it can facilitate an
awareness beyond the physical.

@ beyond time and space is equivalent to NO Attributes
@ so nothing you can point to is outside time and space.
@ so it cannot take "YOU" beyond time and space. In fact
@ nothing can take "YOU" beyond time and space.

In practice though, listening to the Shabd does.

@ What is "YOU" anyway? are you a separate entity (like a separate soul)
@ if your answer is yes - then you consider your soul to be part of duality.
@ the ONENESS view is - there IS no separate soul - no separate self -
@ there is no YOU!

What's in a name... we may demur there is no "separate soul", but
there is still suffering and yearning to escape from it. The mystics
offer a path to do so.

They have to speak in a practical way. That constrains them to a
dualistic framework. That's all we can grasp at this level. In trying to
explain the "soul" they can only say "neti, neti" (not this, not this).

There's far more efficacy in talking about the rope that can pull us
outta the black pit.

Spensor
You say not to judge, but I say how do you then not get tricked and hurt by a narcissist or the hypocrite. Someone who befriends you and has completely different motives and intentions much like gurinder singh dhillan who only cares about himself and expanding the rssb cult. How can this guru speak of compassion when he fraudulently taken 6000crore from his own blood nephews who trusted him as a perfect guru. They are locked up while the fake guru is out free protected by politicians and his inner circle or sangat, his relatives like the drug baron manjeetia. It worries me that you can admire such a fraudster man because you don't operate a judgement. This only shows how completely deluded you have become because the so called inner entities are showing you a good light show. These fake gurus and new agers don't want you to show discernment and intellectual judgement so that you keep your guards down and you accept them with so called love love love and surrender. Also how can you say that the organisation is separate to GSD when it is a cult, now a religion, with a charismatic leader. Its dangerous that you may be protecting the rssb cult and unintentionally misleading people. You only have one side of the jigsaw and not the whole puzzle. It's also worrying that you say there is no satan and negative power and dismiss it as a concept. These powers are real in this duality, just as you are pure love and goodness. These hidden negative powers are showing its hand by there tricks and manipulation. Why else are there wars, drugs, abuse of money, peadofiles, in this realm..how also can you truly navigate the pitfalls of your life. My source is just to just open your eyes outside the rssb cult and run away from their so called corrupt wisdom. You don't need another to show the way, you are complete yourself and it's as simple as that. Be strong

Hi Um
All that matters is what is within me. There might be some connection. But I don't need to prove it. The inner Master is the real Master to me.if there were zero connection, I'm fine with that. It's beside the point, to me. I don't expect them to be the same. I have no expectations around that.

You could try to prove they are one and the same. You could try to prove they are completely different. Makes no difference. The outer one must run a very large organization, deal with people, money, land, operations and other Satsangis.the inner Master lives with me. He's a captive audience, and he's brought Gurinder with him. Two for the price of one and they spend zero time on anyone else but yours truly. It's a great arrangement. I'm happy they are not the same.

They might be the same being, but that guy in the flesh has so many burdens and challenges, he has to manage so many people. It's a real turn off.

This is sooooo much better.

Spence, you're a lucky man. Validation within is truly a gift. Enjoy the bliss of the inner peace you've cultivated.

Some of us are still struggling to find it, one way or the other.

Cheers!

@ Spence
Proof is not the question.

Who or what caused the inner experience to be the same as the one far away, made a choice.
That choice has meaning to it.

Hi Um
You wrote
"Proof is not the question.

" Who or what caused the inner experience to be the same as the one far away, made a choice.
That choice has meaning to it."

Very deep. Yes, from that perspective there must be a connection. A very natural one. Everything is connected. The beautiful thing is that I don't need to understand any of it to enjoy his company. I don't need to prove who I am and neither does Maharaji, nor Gurinder, within. The whole idea of proof that you exist, including all that is in you, to whom? To whom else do we need to prove anything? Our existence is proof enough. And our acceptance of who we are is the foundation for exploration and discovery.

@ Spence.

>>The beautiful thing is that I don't need to understand any of it to enjoy his company.<<

This is at the core of the birth of any religion and mystic school.

Those who get an inner experience are so much impressed, that they neither care nor are able to step back and ask themselves some questions related to the cause of the experience.

So yes, there can have been a man that had a vision or experience of the lord.
Yes in that vision something has presented itself as the lord of the universe.
Yes, in that vision, his tribe was labeled as the lords tribe and a peoce of earth was given to them.

Like you do, that man in the bible, was not interested in the origin and shared the message to his tribe members.

Yes, understandable reaction from the man and his fellow tribe people.

But what about those who are not involved?!

You see, Spence, if ...IF .... there was an causation "beyond" the man, that causation, forgot to inform the other tribe chiefs all over the world, that it had made a gift to that particular tribe by means of that particular person.

So what we have, we that are not involved, is the "hearsay" of one person and the belief of his tribes people.

The same holds for many if not all personal inner experiences were people received and message, an order etc. There is always just one person, the testimony thereof, the hearsay, the belief, the dogma.

But yes ... if something lake that would befall me, I guess, i would act as all the others have done

Inner experience are in the end very intense "lucid dreams" .... personal.
Of it was intended otherwise that same content would be available to others.

@ Spence
And ... how did I come to reason this way?

Well, probably because I enjoyed listening to MCS.

Whenever someone came up with questions related to an inner experience, he in variable would ask if they liked it or not and advised NOT to interact with the experience. He dealt with it as kind of distraction, be it negative or positive.
I can't remember an occasion that he would make a remark about the causation.

He was a sober man and many things he said, related to human life , put before him by the audience, i found later in life to be correct and helpfull even after the moment came in which I woke up in the cinema and lost contact with many things, also religious and spiritual.

You enjoy your inner experiences and I the cup of coffee.

P>S> Your inner experiences must be of great help for you to go through life.

It seems we have many pro satsangis on this site who think they are serving their master as a seva to push out positive propaganda for what is a damaged rssb institution/ religion . They are doing this consciously or unconsciously as they are played like a puppet. Looks like we have decievers talking about the inside who do not question what entity is feeding them who then have a following here. There are also decievers on the outside , the clown gurinder singh dhillan in the physical. The devil has cleverly weaved his spell in the spiritual plane and the physical. Who can honestly escape the clutches of kaal when he operates in full force and through many different avenues and dimensions. Wake up from this spell and the tricks . Sangat don't fall for these games

Hi Um
You wrote
"Inner experience are in the end very intense "lucid dreams" .... personal."

I would suggest that this is the dream. And leaving this body for our body of light is emerging into reality. That in deep meditation everything becomes much clearer. The stars within, the inner cathedral of light is much more HD, than this world. In that inner realm thought is much clearer. Answers aren't pieced together grain by grain, incremental thought by thought, blind conjecture, thinking then conjecture. In complete contrast, in that higher place, there answers emerge as a whole package, complete and comprehensive at once. They don't even emerge. We become them at once. When we see and work with colleagues there, every glance is instant communication and filled with compassion. And yes we have a life and we have our work there. And that is only faintly reflected here, completely derivative here. A complex mathematical solution there never arrives here except in degraded fragments and over decades of time, coming through distracted grunts who work intoxicated here.

There, a single thought is a perception of truth that has no end, and contains all thoughts on the subject. From that place looking back to here, we are all asleep. And from there, when it is time for our meditation to end, it is like laying down, covering ourselves with a blanket and going to sleep. This place is the dream, where we can never see things clearly enough, where every understanding is only partial, incomplete and biased. Where we aren't even our full selves, but like a drunk stumbling about, falling, mistaken at every turn, who knows he's not fully awake and fully functioning, feels imprisoned by these burdensome blinkers, and this terrible addiction to intoxication on rot gut liquor that burns like fire going down, and leaves us miserable and in pain. And so we drink even more to forget, and forgetting, live in a dull meloncholy seeking our next distraction. And all of that, a waste of time and life.

No, Um, this is the dream, not the reality.


@ Spence

If I had inner experiences I would write as you do.

Even without having them, it is not difficult to understand that the experience is so impressive that one cannot stand back and give a though to the causation.... your well written words are testimony of it as are the poems of mystics.

Yes Spence, I do believe you on your words. Why would I doubt the description of your experience? That is not the point.

The point is the causation and the meaning your experience have for others.

What YOU experience, is experienced only by YOU.
YOU can share by word of mouth what the content was.
WE, ....we only .... HEAR ... what ...you ....SAY.

Why would anybody act on these words of hearsay that have no power whatsoever beyond the "believe attributed"to them by the beholder.??? Please do understand this. What you experience and with you what was experienced by all mystics and prophets has the power of the experience.... power more impressive than mind altering drugs can cause or lucid dreams. The one that hears has to bring the words spoken to live with his imagination, fear or whatever other human mental power.

Again ...
Yes, i do believe there was a man like you, who had an experience like you.
In those experiences he had, his tribe in the "sleep-world" was promised an piece of the world,
Must have been an joyfull experience for him and for those who heard his message and believed what he said, they must have rejoiced as well.

But for the rest of the world, the many other tribes all with there own prophets, mystics, shamans and spiritual receptive people ...THEY had no clue whatsoever!

IF there was an causation beside the one that had the experience, that power could and should have informed the other tribes, that it gave that piece of land to that particular tribe.

That causative power, if it exists, did inform just ONE person and forgot to inform the rest of humanity. No mystic of the may tribes around the world received an message explaining them the situation.

You are not to blame, you cannot but act upon the power of your experience.
Again, being in your shoes I would do the same, even with this understanding on my side.

Hi Um
You asked
"Why would anybody act on these words of hearsay that have no power whatsoever beyond the "believe attributed"to them by the beholder.???"

If, and this is a big if,someone's personal experience resonates with anyone else, so that they have some glimpse of these possibilities, either aware of something more, or aware of their condition here, then such experience can only encourage perseverance in their own chosen practice of focus, withdrawal from the world in meditation or prayer, or any similar practice of worship which can help them spend a little more time in a place of thoughtful awareness, separated from worry, disconnected from anxiety, free of fear and desire, of greater awareness, and the peace and perspective this focus brings: More time with your better self, who is always inside for you.

@ Spence

After all these years I have come to the conclusion that it makes no sense for those who have no spontaneous inner experience to be involved in these matters.

None, of the mystics, that are used as example arrived at that position by effort.

So it is rather strange, that those who had spontaneous inner experience offer methods to arrive at the same while they never followed that path.

I understand that if those who have these experiences are "ordered" to speak up cannot but heed that command .... but those who hear them speak should never act upon their words as long as that causative force did not order them to listen.

The subtle realities still stay hidden from our,( most of us) consciousness than eyes despite one more revelation as being seen it as. It therefore is of academic interest merely.

We are weighed down by the intellect itself pulling us down all the while. Plus it is also beyond our power - meditational to go within except for His acceptance of our love and efforts even while rest conditions almost are satisfied.

Its quite tricky and slippery to run after Him with the World and its pleasures chasing us simultaneously.

What have you learned from your inner light show and fakery that are very short lived like some sort of spell. Absolutely nothing!!!!. These shows are given by inner entities after you foolishly call upon in your mantras. They are given to certain people as they are used as a validation tool for individuals that then think they are special. They don't know it but they then can be used and manipulated by these entities to expand their agenda. These shows and feelings you get are there to trick you so you can share and propagate there agenda of lies. This is not enlightenment!!!!!. you are going further the other way and into the spiders web. If you cannot discern that the outer guru is a total fraudster how can you discern the inner entities. Do your research and soul searching

If the guru truly experiences - and not only says - that we already One, then the guru is truly a madman.

So why are two million people following a madman?

For actual realisation that we are already One is madness indeed. I would say it is no joke, but it is in fact the greatest joke ever told, One pretending to be many!

It is not an idea, it is not a belief, it is not a concept, it is not a logical chess-piece to be moved around a metaphysical chess-board of religious faiths vying for intellectual superiority.

It is the direct and immediate perception that it is literally the same the consciousness in "me" that is also in the "other", the same consciousness dividing itself infinitely to create the grand cosmic dance of individuality and forgetfulness of our undivided Oneness. This is directly experienced and understood, and absolutely no room for doubt remains. Notions of death become - genuinely, sincerely, not mere lip service - laughable.....where could One go? Where is consciousness not? It is a state of pure madness. Ecstatic, joyous, astonishing, overflowing with love - but awe-full madness, too.

This is not a state of consciousness your mother is accustomed to. These are mere fairytales for these 2 million followers of an alleged madman. For in Oneness, truly, truly, the mystic sees absolutely no difference between all the money, fame and power of this world, and a pile of sticks and stones. No, no.....you truly don't understand oh 2 million followers of an alleged madman.......the real mystic really, really doesn't see any difference at all! Neither between life and death, right or wrong, praise or condemnation, wealth or poverty.......no difference at all! Just all One big charade we play, or dance we jig!

The genuine mystic is genuine madman.

So why are they following a madman?

Every single one of these two million followers, getting great educations, making families, accumulating fantastic wealth, great houses, big cars. Not a single one of them has any interest in Oneness! Two million sane followers, following a madman!

Ahh, but tis but plain lip-service. A modern religion, built on stories of madmen past, but a religion none the less. Give up a few things which are culturally unfavoured anyway, go to church once a week, get initiated, get up and fall asleep in meditation posture for 30 minutes, get up, and get back to the real work that matters, that of duality; family, wealth, comfort, name, fame, power etc

So why are these two million people following a alleged madman who thinks it's all One?

For if their guru really is a madman, then he is a madman surrounded by two million sleepwalkers. And that is all. If one should should accidentally awaken, then it becomes two madmen - who realise their fundamental Oneness, sameness - surrounded by two million sleepwalkers.

That is all.

The rest is just religious fairytales for children.

@ The rest is just religious fairytales for children.

Halleujah! Rumi is back! Let madness reign!

Go forth. Be ye fruitful and multiply. A gaggle
of madmen making merry. The children won't
hear a thing.

"So why are two million people following a madman?"

Posted by: manjit | July 29, 2020 at 04:34 AM

Pardon.

Weren't you an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh? I ask because you are well versed
in his teachings, and at times when I read your posts you sound as if you have a complete understanding of Sant Mat and have never been an Exer.

"Every single one of these two million followers, getting great educations, making families, accumulating fantastic wealth, great houses, big cars."

How do you know that? Maybe there are some who are wealthy but there are probably many more poor and suffering followers experiencing a difficult life. Who are we to judge, living a comfortable lifestyle and not experiencing much suffering or difficulties in life. Where is the compassion for others? If following a guru helps some people why do we need to find fault? Even as an ex-satsangi I still have compassion for those suffering a very difficult and miserable life style and if they can find help by following some guru, so be it.

Hi Jen! Thanks for your message :)

You ask: "Where is the compassion for others? If following a guru helps some people why do we need to find fault? Even as an ex-satsangi I still have compassion for those suffering a very difficult and miserable life style and if they can find help by following some guru, so be it."

Well, I think perhaps you may have missed my own intended meaning in that comment, but you ask an excellent question nonetheless.

Going back to "Oneness" and the "mystical pursuit", I was merely suggesting that all these other people, be they rich or poor, are sane people, whereas a genuinely "realised mystic" must be a madman by sheer fact of their recognition of the Oneness of everything (the subject of this post) . The disciples pursue duality. Rich or poor, in comfort or suffering, it makes absolutely no difference, everyone wants to live, nobody wants to be extinguished. All play lip service to these concepts on a Sunday morning, then immediately return to reinforcing their identity in this world - whatever rung in society that may be, whatever costume they may have, whatever mask they may wear. Imo, the moment of "realisation" is not too far away, or too difficult to "achieve", if one could only turn their attention from duality to non-duality. But if you don't want to, you don't want to I suppose......

But this is all to abstract, too conceptual, too "bullshitty" when put into the written word - you are absolutely right to bring this back to "compassion"! Where is the compassion, to be precise.....Yes, perfect question! :)

"Compassion" is a word that means different things to different people - so diverse that for some it is merely a word worthy only of contempt, or for others a delightful "virtue signalling" device to hide some unexamined aspect of their own shadow. So we each have our own conception of "compassion". Most people consider the word to have "positive" connotations, and also consider themselves to be unusually "compassionate", in my experience. But when we look at the way the world is today, it doesn't really reflect that as true, does it? I think that's because most people have a conception of "compassion" that it is really some aspect of self-preservation of their individual i-dentity, "compassion" for one's own children? Sure, of course! Compassion for one's own parents and siblings? Yes sirree! Compassion for one's neighbours? Well, there's a few nasty neighbours I don't like, but the rest, yeah why not! Compassion for the whole world? What? Compassion for people of other races? Errrrrm. Compassion for rapists, murderers, despots? Now you're just being crazy! Compassion for all animals, fish and insects? Well, I don't beat them myself and I have a pet, but I really do need that steak followed by ice cream on a weekend......

Then beyond all these limited understandings of "compassion", how does one act skillfully and with compassion in the kind of fractured, divided world we see today? Is silence, after all, compliance? Is it compassionate to not criticise, to not protest, when you have leaders like Donald Trump who spread nothing but hate, fear, divisiveness and self-interested greed, who are misogynists who think women are nothing but sexualised objects, and worse of all, threatens all life on earth with his deeply demented, greed and ignorance based views on climate change?

I would like to come back to "Oneness", because my own understanding and experience fits in beautifully with your beautiful question, Jen - Yes, "Oneness"! For somebody who is entirely forgetful of their original state of Unity and Oneness, their "compassion" will always begin and end with their notions of self, with a little s.

Compassion doesn't begin by building walls to protect their already secure citizens, for example, "compassion" is the constant awareness of the weight of oppression and suffering past that still burdens vast swathes of their citizenry every single day, and that they are unaware of or simply don't care about because it doesn't effect them personally. Pretending they do, and then proceeding to state compassion is protecting what one (ie. me and people my i-dentity i-dentifies with) already has, is selfish, entitled, privileged egotism, pure and simple.

This is, of course, just my own personal understanding and opinion.

For me "compassion" is refusing to worship a God who condemns infinite souls to infinite "suffering", who have absolutely no control over their "karma", neither origin, perpetuation or end, and all for the fun & sport of an infinitesimally elect few of chosen souls. For me, "compassion" is to hope and pray that no soul should suffer, no soul should be used for the sport of the Demiurge's, ooops, I meant Sat Purish's elect. And even if such a God or reality were to exist, to protest against it, and not for one's own soul but for that of the infinite others! Of course let people follow a guru; why not, whose stopping them from doing so? Follow any religion you want I say, I'm certainly never going to condemn anyone to eternal suffering, torment, hell, reincarnation or whatever! I have never said or even hinted at such a thing in my entire life, either online, real life, or even in my own head, and since I was a child. The mere thought of some kind of divine wrath, or "karma" enforcing deity as "God" I personally find naturally abhorrent. One need not even be wrapt up in a state of indescribable non-dual ecstasy to have this much base-level decency, surely? But then I read some of the comments on this site from the chosen elect, and I do wonder.....;)

For me, genuine "compassion" is a natural manifestation of an increasing awareness of our unity and connection to all life forms on earth. In the deepest non-dual state, one literally becomes the "soul" of entire families, neighbourhoods, countries, races, religions. One literally identifies with every single race on earth.....black, white, brown. One literally identifies with all countries, cultures, religions. One literally identifies with women, old people, children. One literally identifies with all animals, birds, fish, insects etc. One feels infinite narratives, of joy, happiness, sadness, grief, birth, death etc.

But this is only in one dimension, and Oneness goes in all directions & dimensions! So not only the present time, but heavy yoke of all the past, too, is weighted down on One, in Oneness.

All the many thousands of years of oppression & suffering of countless women throughout history, the tragic and inhumane suffering and oppression of countless black people, often perpetrated by human beings wearing a different coloured costume......and every other type of suffering from the pin prick to genocide, to experience these sufferings experientialy, in the first person individually, and collectively, the suffering of humans alone is endless, what to talk of the animal kingdom! In each moment of the present does the weight of the past press, and mould, and define, but people cannot see it because they are caught up in "me and mine". All this reality is "Oneness".

So that, to me, leads to something somewhat approaching "compassion" - to have in every moment the awareness of that immense, almost unbearable burden of the past, present and future of all suffering of all beings. To know when you look at any embodied being who has forgotten their true state, the burden they carry, to know and to feel love and have immense compassion for all sentient beings. Being aware of this, concern for one's own "self" and "identity" tends to efface itself. But even realisation of this doesn't make the individual "perfect", for the world is never going to be "perfect". Despite this "awareness", we still make mistakes, act like assholes, say things which are inevitably going to be misinterpreted in a myriad of ways, some will like it, others will hate it. This is duality! We can only smile, make a joke, but even genuine compassion, or whatever we can say, it cannot take that suffering away from another being! Imo, this is because we actually, really quite enjoy our daliance with duality :) It's not that people are seeking "liberation", Nirvana or non-duality, but rather hoping for an upgrade on their current dualistic housing arrangements; sipping amrit on a veranda in a remote dweep of the so-hang plain has got to be better than this, right? :)

Anyways, take good care of yourself Jen, and thanks for indulging me on Oneness and Compassion; excellent bedfellows I find :)

PS - There is not many people or places I have found that explicitly share these kind of experiences, but I would have to mention this book, which really does go very, very deep into the kinds of areas of experience I'm talking about. A most breathtaking work, though it should be noted the author's experiences are based on large dose LSD journeys, which I personally would not advocate. Regardless, the experiences and insights speak for themselves https://www.amazon.co.uk/LSD-Mind-Universe-Diamonds-Heaven/dp/1620559706 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHn8lzYNXyE

Dear Karim - Hello Sir! You asked "Weren't you an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh?"

No. But do you recall that quote mentioned here the other day from Jaimal, when he wrote to Sawan about the Himalayan mountain range "last time I was here, the mountains were not" or some such?

Well I was there with him that day 57.745892 million years ago (I remember it like it were yesterday!). We were both a pair of palaeochiropteryx. He was banging on about how one day, these "hoomans" would evolve, and when they do, he'll become one, go and sit in a jungle and start a whole new religion, where I will act as an intermediary to the Absolute Divine, I will set up stages, and regions, rulers and secret worded mantras. I will classify levels of divinity, from sadhus to sants, to satgurus, to pooran sant satgurus, to spanish businessmen. Such a mockery I will make of Oneness he said!

I said to him, "my palaeochiropteryx friend, you been sniffing your own shit again haven't you? How many times I got to tell you, that shit is craaaazzzzzzy dude........"

And that was last we spoke.

Thank you manjit for that lovely response. I live a very quiet and simple life style. Watching and observing life as it is. Thinking that it will never be perfect. Trying to be grateful and understanding that each and every person will be experiencing their own thoughts and feelings in their own way.
I enjoy the mystical, magical side of life...

Rumi quote:

This is love: to fly toward a secret sky, to cause a hundred veils to fall each moment. First to let go of life. Finally, to take a step without feet.

Dear Karim - Hello Sir! You asked "Weren't you an initiate of Maharaj Charan Singh?"

No

Posted by: manjit | July 30, 2020 at 01:34 PM

Godspeed, Godspeed.

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