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July 20, 2020

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"The first glimpse of truth comes only when we question our core beliefs and it’s not comfortable at all."

Osho, this last statement is so true, and is such a simple statement with a profound meaning.

Unless we question, we are living in ignorance. Blind faith or belief in the mainstream (fill in the blank) thinking leads to indoctrination and zealotry. We must question, we must investigate and use our sense of discrimination.

Thanks for the well written and thoughtful words.

Actually the caller makes a good point which the panelists gloss over. The caller remarks that before science understood electricity and how it operates, it still existed. The panelists, rather than acknowledging the truth of her statement, leap to an unrelated remark, that lightening still could strike someone dead. But they ignore the fact that since we knew nothing of the properties of electricity, we could not claim evidence for electricity at that time long ago in history.

The caller then remarks that if someone were struck dead by lightening before we knew about electricity you could just as easily call it God. The panelists say "no, it's electricity.. It's a manifested event," but ignore the fact that at the time no one knew enough about electricity to understand that lightning is a charge of electrons.

The panelists cannot acknowledge that before we understood what caused events we explained them as divine. The whole world is God in action, until we understand the technical details. But explaining what we don't know with scientific conjecture is also just clinging to belief without actually knowing.

And many of those areas are still unknown. And today explaining all events, even those science hasn't yet explored, with some scientific explanation, isn't science.

This is the problem of Atheism. It argues for belief in what can be proven by science when even science acknowledges there is more going on in this creation than science currently understands our which can be proven.


If science can admit this, why not atheists?

If Atheists laugh at believers because they don't really know, why can't they also admit what they don't really know?

It's like two images that are actually reflections of each other. Both do not acknowledge their ignorance.

The caller made a couple of solid points.

This video is actually very revealing. It shows us exactly how a person (the caller in this case) can create all kinds of ridiculous beliefs and never realise how ridiculous they are.

It is much easier to see this in others than to see it in ourself, because when "I" do it - it feels real to me.

If everyone was to go through this type of questioning, it would reveal exactly how ridiculous our beliefs are.

A person will ignore all the evidence once they have "faith"

A believer also holds a firm belief that by believing they are doing something "good"
and that "judging" someone else (especially a guru figure) is very bad.

This creates the trap we see here so often, where a follower vehemently denies and ignores all the evidence, and continues to believe.

Sometimes, as in the case of Spence Tepper, (nothing personal Spence, I just need an example to illustrate a point) the person creates a new slightly different version of reality in order to maintain their belief.

So Spence can clearly see (the evidence is there) that the outer guru appears to have acted in, shall we just say, not the highest moral standard. But now how do you explain the conflict, because Spence has manifested his radinat form within himself. The RSSB teachings say this can only happen if the guru is a real guru.

Spence openly criticises and condemns (not now, but in earlier comments, when it was all in the press) the outer gurinder, saying for instance that he needs to come clean and apologise, while at the same time he has the inner darshan of gurinder.

Now the teachings say it is a very high state of inner progress to have the radiant form within you. Also this form should talk to you. It also says that it can only happen when you have great love for the guru.

So we have conflicting evidence. Spence has resolved this by creating his own version of sant mat, which makes perfect sense to him; namely that the inner and outer guru have no connection or relationship.

So, for instance, the outer guru can be a thief and a fraudster, yet the inner guru can be all love and kindness. Those are not the RSSB teachings, but that is the only explanation that fits, for Spence. So for him, it seems not only reasonable, but the only logical conclusion.

However it's not true. if the outer guru can be a crook, how can he possibly be of help to the discioples who are trying to purify their minds?

Many followers also chose to ignore the reality of sevadars at Haynes Park acting illegally and physically assaulting me as I was quietly and peacefully walking out of Haynes Park.

If that is the example of "good behaviour" set by the senior sevadars for the sangat to follow, which it clearly is, because the guru took no action and in fact said he supports his sevadars, then clearly the disciple has no reason to continue to attend satsang anymore. What is he going to learn from a corrupt set of sevadars and a guru who condones that behaviour?

There are so many more examples. The fact that a high ranking speaker and the favourite speaker of Charan Singh, died a depressed and disillusioned man. That speaks volumes.

Then there is all the evidence of the singh brothers. Then the land grab allegations.

A follower has to ignore all this evidence if he wishes to continue to follow. How does he or she achieve this almost impossible task? very easy. claim true love for the master. love is beyond all judgement.

There are stories about previous gurus who pretended to have fallen, to test the disciples. so now the follower can take solace in those stories.

throw out all the evidence and go by your feelings. who cares about the truth anyway?

especially when feelings and make believe feel so good.

Hi Osho

It's never a good idea to make presumptions about another person. Rarely is it accurate.

Generally, when faced with information we don't agree with, an attitude of inquiry is more scientific. But instead some folks prefer rendering judgment when their understanding is limited. It is almost the rule that such judgments are inaccurate, self - serving our existing world view.

You wrote
"
Sometimes, as in the case of Spence Tepper, (nothing personal Spence, I just need an example to illustrate a point) the person creates a new slightly different version of reality in order to maintain their belief."

That's how science works, Osho!

We don't throw out a theory as new facts arise. We first try to develop the theory. And part of that is accepting all the facts, inner and outer.

Gravity does exist even if our theories about it have changed dramatically over the centuries. It's still Gravity, but we understand it to be radically different than we presumed. That's just Science. It's progress. We should all try to appreciate it. That would be very healthy.

You wrote
" So Spence can clearly see (the evidence is there) that the outer guru appears to have acted in, shall we just say, not the highest moral standard. But now how do you explain the conflict, because Spence has manifested his radinat form within himself. The RSSB teachings say this can only happen if the guru is a real guru."

Your premise about only real Gurus having a radiant form is a straw man. Please cite some textual evidence for your claim. In any case my experience is a little different. Every one of us has an Astral form, and indeed we exist on every level. Even a thief has a radiant form. And a Saint! The only evidence is your own experience of that.

Now, is that form connected to the physical person? Maybe not! Or maybe so, but in ways we don't fully understand. Can a Saint be a Thief? I'm pretty sure the answer is 'yes'.

But I'm glad I don't really have to answer that question. The inner life is all that matters. That's inside me. And you too, Osho. You have an inner life also.

It may be something symbolic. But I honor it as reflecting something deep and sacred within me that I value very much. Something that has been a great source of support, love, and even adventure.

The mind isn't the end of the story. It is the product of many things. And there are many levels of mind, and beyond mind, inner perception, inner experience.

I honor it.

So you see Osho, my beliefs haven't changed at all. And yet they are refined daily! As my understanding and experience of what is inside me grows.

And that is all that matters Osho. Your understanding of what is inside you, as you mature, as you search and explore. As you grow. All that matters is the inner life within you. There is great beauty inside!

Your are struggling with trying to squeeze things into your fixed world view. Let it go!

None of us can fully understand this world or any of the others from this mental perspective. But the mind can learn to understand important things. The first is to appreciate things far greater than ourselves. We should look at this inner and outer world both with the eyes of an inquisitive child, always learning, and re-learning. It's more fun that way. And more accurate.

Our opinions will never be very accurate about things we haven't witnessed for ourselves. And a good opinion isn't great company. There's no life in it.

Thr world cannot be constrained to our opinions or even our experience. George Floyd died because police officers placed their opinion higher than the evidence of Floyd dying right before them. They should have listened to that nagging voice within them urging them to believe Floyd, to really hear him. Instead they chose to ignore it. They chose to believe that Floyd was a liar, just to defend their own opinion. A man died because police officers chose opinion over both outer and inner experience.

No one's opinion is sacred.

Earlier you repeatedly claimed Baba Ji said the Lord doesn't come to get us upon death, to save us.

But on the video I pointed to yesterday Baba Ji goes to some length to say He does come to everyone upon their death. He wants us to return and re-unite. Are we able to recognize Him?

It's OK to hold a separate opinion, but it's inaccurate to claim this is Baba Ji's opinion.

Just as it is inaccurate to claim, as some have, that Fakir was an atheist. That isn't true.

I'm afraid Osho that modern technology has made your effort to tell us all what Baba Ji said obsolete. You've become redundant. Sorry.

Now anyone can watch and hear Baba Ji for ourselves at any time and anywhere. They don't need anyone, neither you nor I, acting as Baba Ji's unofficial mouthpiece.

Your job telling us what Baba Ji actually said, has now come to an end.

We appreciate your seva.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"So we have conflicting evidence. Spence has resolved this by creating his own version of sant mat, which makes perfect sense to him; namely that the inner and outer guru have no connection or relationship."

There might be a connection but there doesn't need to be.

You wrote
" Spence has resolved this by creating his own version of sant mat,"

Exactly, Osho. We all do this of necessity. Make the best version for yourself you can. Don't try to say this is Sant Mat or any other label. Just create what works for you, what seems truthful for you. Your own belief system. We all must do this. Let's just be honest about it. It's a good and healthy thing. Then we can always strive to make it as honest as we can without imposing our system in anyone else.

Yes, make your own system. Don't hide behind anyone else's.

Before people believed in one God, they believed in many gods. What's the evidence that monotheism is truer than polytheism?

Hi Anami
If your own source of inspiration is just one thing, one perfect idea, one true Inner Master, then for you it's always Monotheism. Then Monotheism is best. But difficult to obtain.

Most people have a few gods: career, spouse, children, God/Christ /Master, politics, science, art, literature. Whatever you worship.

But if you can find something you love more than anything else to pour your heart into, that returns the best.

In the realm of love investing in a variety may protect us from significant loss, but also keeps ecstatic love always beyond our reach.

For that, we must put our head on the chopping block. It's all in or nothing, if you seek a breakfast of brilliant white light daily.

Monotheism. Nothing compares to it.

@ anami

You have to go further back.
Who invented the word "god"?!
Words like god are inventions as there is the wheel and the use of fire.

Great Master started his book "My submission" with the words:
"Man came first.
Religions were instituted later for the evolution of his soul".

Religions are based upon the spontaneous experiences of mystics, call them praphets, sjamans or whatever, the discovery of mind altering plants and ... the need to survive in places that were not the original habitat of human beings; the place in time before culture.

The believe in a one god not related to the many events in nature is just an other invention later in time.

“ You wrote
" Spence has resolved this by creating his own version of sant mat,"

Exactly, Osho. We all do this of necessity. Make the best version for yourself you can. Don't try to say this is Sant Mat or any other label. Just create what works for you, what seems truthful for you. Your own belief system. We all must do this. Let's just be honest about it. It's a good and healthy thing. Then we can always strive to make it as honest as we can without imposing our system in anyone else.” -Spence

It was just an observation, Spence.
People do this anyway. I don’t agree that it’s healthy because you don’t care about the truth - you just create your own version and it feels good and right to you. Just as Dianna does in the video.

Your version of the truth is not the truth -it’s just just your made up version and you live in a make believe world.
The question is do you care if your beliefs and your version of the world is true?
If you do, then you can’t make things up in your head.
If you do make things up, like Dianna is doing in the phone call, I agree that it feels good but it’s not the truth

“ No one's opinion is sacred.

Earlier you repeatedly claimed Baba Ji said the Lord doesn't come to get us upon death, to save us.

But on the video I pointed to yesterday Baba Ji goes to some length to say He does come to everyone upon their death. He wants us to return and re-unite. Are we able to recognize Him?”. - Spence

You are referring to video no 11. 7 mins and 30 secs in. He doesn’t go to any great length. It’s only 30 secs.

He also doesn’t say “I will come at your death to take you”

His words are “The lord comes to get EVERYONE.” So
1. He doesn’t say HE (gsd) will come
2. He is not talking about the guru coming for his disciples at all.
If he was he would have referred to the master, not the Lord.
And he would not have said “everyone”
Because the guru doesn’t come to get everyone. Only his own disciples.

Then he says “you may not recognise him and think he hasn’t come if you have created that relationship”

He is talking about something else. Obviously a disciple recognises his master.

He is referring to something completely different. You are putting your own meaning on his words.

Did he say “I or the guru or the master comes at death to collect his disciples”
No - but that is the meaning you created.

He said THE LORD comes to collect EVERYONE. He is saying “realise and recognise the truth / the lord before you die”

This is the issue. We hear what we want to hear. We create our own meaning

The idea of a guru coming at death is duality. He has never said he will come at death.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"Your version of the truth is not the truth -it’s just just your made up version and you live in a make believe world."

That's how the brain functions Osho.
Your made up world might be more accurate than mine, or less so. But it's constructed by your brain even before you see it.

If you are guessing about my inner world, which you have no access to, naturally you are going to be less accurate.

Somehow you think my inner world is part of your made up world and conforms to that world. But it isn't. Our worlds are different.

If I try to guess what's going on in your head, I'm going to be guessing, and then I'll be less accurate.

So if it is Truth you are interested in, try to draw conclusions about stuff going on within and around you, because you stand a better chance of being accurate, where you can test and refine your guesswork.

That's just scientific. It's reality testing.

Hi Osho!
I'm glad you went to the trouble to look at the video.

But unfortunately Baba Ji doesn't say what you wrote.

At 7: 33 the questioner asks "And Baba Ji, I want you to come to me at the end of my life. When I leave the body, I want you to come and take me away with these words, 'Come my son, your time has come, let's go.'

The questioner is specifically asking for Baba Ji to come at his death and take him.

Baba Ji never says "I don't come, but the Lord comes." which is your interpolation, Osho.

Instead, Baba Ji says, "Look, remember one thing. The Lord comes to take everyone. The Lord never creates separation. If He has taken on the responsibility of a soul, He will come to take it."

That's a reference to the role of the Master.

"If He has taken on the responsibility of a soul..."

If... When does that happen? That's initiation.

He continues.
"Now if we have established a relationship with Him while we are still alive, we will recognize Him."

That's a direct reference to the initiates' relationship to the Master. Baba Ji is referring to the Lord and our relationship to the Master as the same thing, interchangeably.

He continues.
" If we have not, then we will not recognize Him, it is not that He does not come."

The Master comes for us at the time of our death, according to Baba Ji. You are wrong, Osho, to claim otherwise.

Baba Ji tells you directly "It is not that he does not come."

Baba Ji continues.
"So this depends on us - to maintain that relationship with Him so that we can recognize Him."

Who can we recognize? The Master. Baba Ji is referring to the Master.

So anyone can hear this for themselves rather than take this second hand.

https://youtu.be/GD9kaZnzvpM

Now, Osho, you are entitled to believe what you wish regarding spirituality. And you are entitled to view things differently than Baba Ji. But you are not entitled to put words in Baba Ji's mouth. It's entirely unnecessary.

@ His words are “The lord comes to get EVERYONE.” So
@ 1. He doesn’t say HE (gsd) will come
@ 2. He is not talking about the guru coming for his disciples at all.
@ If he was he would have referred to the master, not the Lord.
@ And he would not have said “everyone”
@ Because the guru doesn’t come to get everyone. Only his own disciples.

He doesn't?! Who else would pick up the uninitiated low-lifers
other than the lord? I mean they "have" the requisite soul, no?
Maybe it's that fallen angel pulling garbage duty, I suppose.
But hey, that's technically another soul if not GIHF. And...
all souls are just "droplets", ie, clones of the lord with a very
bad case of amnesia. So, it's clear the lord tidies up the
scene when the soul cries out "Goodbye, cruel world!".

@ Then he says “you may not recognise him and think he hasn’t
@ come if you have created that relationship. He is talking about
@ something else. Obviously a disciple recognises his master.

My theory is he's talking about the inner --not the outer-- master
because the inner shepherds the sheep off stage. Most of us klutzes
haven't seen that form yet. Maybe hard to recognize with no turban?

See what fevered ideas the brain can cook up?

I know that I do'nt know..
But we live here.
We seek places that suits us like satsang ,nature,dear ones..
Or we seek aloneness.., can be so so very fine too..

God knows..as the saying goes..

;0)

Dungeness ends by saying
“See what fevered ideas the mind can cook up?”

Exactly. We can believe whatever we choose - and convince ourselves that it is the truth.

“@ Because the guru doesn’t come to get everyone. Only his own disciples.

He doesn't?! Who else would pick up the uninitiated low-lifers
other than the lord? I mean they "have" the requisite soul, no?”

No guru comes to get any soul, I was just referring to what the teachings say.

Of course no guru can come because if he did come, where is he coming from and where will he take the soul to?
And what will the soul do when it gets there? Watch TV? Meditate? Or wash the dishes? Answers on a postcard addressed to sat purush

Now for the point about “everyone”
If gsd is going to come for everyone, my god is he going to be busy.

Check on world meters on how many people die everyday. And that’s just planet earth.
Now add all the other planets with life in ALL the solar systems and universes.

Just how big is Sach Khand?

Anyway the point I was about to make was this:

If he is coming for everyone, then why the heck are you wasting your time in meditation and seva etc.

Go enjoy your life. Forget the meditation

No clearly he is not talking about anyone coming at death. Because as he said on the video that is the topic of this article,
“We are already there. We are already part and particle - not separate”

You only need someone to collect you at death if you are separate.

If you are not separate, why will anyone need to come at death to collect you

@spence
“ That's how the brain functions Osho.
Your made up world might be more accurate than mine, or less so. But it's constructed by your brain even before you see it.

If you are guessing about my inner world, which you have no access to, naturally you are going to be less accurate.”

I am not talking about guessing or about your or my world view.

I am talking about truth. Not about opinions, which are a dozen a dime.

If I was going to a fitness coach, he would give me certain advise based on truth (in this case on what works)
He would not say “ just go by whatever you feel is right or whatever is comfortable for you”
What’s comfortable to me is clearly not working: it might be eating fried food, never moving from the couch.
How is that going to help?
No, a coach doesn’t care about my comfort and what I think or believe. It’s irrelevant and inaccurate. He goes by the truth and his experience and expertise of working with thousands of unhealthy people and turning their health around.

His advise is not subject to my opinion. It is clear and accurate and works otherwise no point in going to him.

Same with a guru. No point in taking his advice if he says it’s just about being comfortable. He has to show you what you don’t want to see. He has to take you beyond your limited ideas.
Your ideas all belong to duality and he is talking about something beyond.

Hence the reason why he MUST be misunderstood

https://youtu.be/-nSMi0whFEA

https://youtu.be/JKOI_N-nvzM

If he is understood by you, he is not a master.

@spence
“ That's how science works, Osho!

We don't throw out a theory as new facts arise. We first try to develop the theory. And part of that is accepting all the facts, inner and outer.”

There are no “inner facts”

So called inner facts means our subjective experience. Not facts.

Enlightenment is a subjective experience too. Hence cannot be proven in the world of facts

“I” go through it and it culminates in the disappearance of the “I”
Can’t be proven. Someone else can go through the same thing. Still not proof.

Anyone can question me and I will fail to prove anything - it’s subjective

So you have a vision. I don’t deny it.

All I can and am saying is that the Sant mat teachings don’t match. They state that anyone who has the radiant form within had immense love for the outer guru. And that the inner guru is related closely to the outer. Also that the outer guru is of high moral standards and not like an ordinary person.

Those are facts that can be verified by checking with what has been written in books of Sant mat

Hi Dungeness

Honestly who can say what will happen at our death? It's interesting we spend so much time trying to imagine what will happen when we have no more control over anything.

But we can see our own condition today, and learn, through discipline and some inspiration, to persue our bliss.

And, while always open and learning, never allow distractions to pull us from our bliss.

I'm still in that class, and haven't passed yet, but my marks are getting better... Not perfect. If I can raise my grade to a C or B Ill be happy!

What is built into us is our birthright, has its proof, endless proof within. And that happiness becomes a strength that opens the door to acknowledging all events, external and internal.

Let's just claim the happiness within us, and if it makes us stronger, we will also help those around us.

"If you are happy, you always have something to give."

Hi Osho
You wrote
"No, a coach doesn’t care about my comfort and what I think or believe. It’s irrelevant and inaccurate."

Your experience means everything to the best athletic trainers. That is their guide. Have you no exposure to Physical Medicine, Occupational or Speech Therapy? Or Behavioral therapy?

What makes the difference between injury and progress?

Your particular experience.

And the best Athletes are trained by their coaches to pay intense scrutiny and focus on that.

You wrote
"There are no 'inner facts'"

Those are the only facts that exist for each of us biochemical creatures.

And we must filter them out from imagination driven largely be false and self - serving opinions, so that we don't even see the words on the page or hear the Master's actual spoken words.

@ If he is coming for everyone, then why the heck are you wasting your time in
@ meditation and seva etc. Go enjoy your life. Forget the meditation.

"He" is consciousness, the love within yourself, your very
essence. You are nothing other than the "inner master".
"You'" are "him", you had simply forgotten and played
a game. Call it a diversion, a thrilling stage play.

Mystics such as Ishwar Puri have said we arrange our
own exit from the stage through an inward journey.
Other actors, including that outer master, are props.
How could "anyone else" do it for you?

Waste time with meditation because a prop outside
will do it for you? No, a child plays with a toy until it's
time to go inside. He sets the toys aside and goes
home. He transforms into the adult that was always
within.

It was just a magic show to experience love.

@ Honestly who can say what will happen at our death? It's interesting we
@ spend so much time trying to imagine what will happen when we have
@ no more control over anything.

I was just being whimsical about the notion of a stage
actor driving up in a private "RSSB" hearse.

@ What is built into us is our birthright, has its proof, endless proof within. And
@ that happiness becomes a strength that opens the door to acknowledging
@ all events, external and internal.

@ Let's just claim the happiness within us, and if it makes us stronger, we will also @ help those around us.

Thank you. Beautifully put as always.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"All I can and am saying is that the Sant mat teachings don’t match."

Fair enough. I'm no authority on 'the Sant Mat teachings.'

I only speak to my personal experience.

But when I listened to that video, Baba Ji does not say what you claimed.

The questioner asked Baba Ji to come to him when he dies and take him home.

And Baba Ji says the Lord comes to everyone upon their death. The Lord doesn't create separation.

You said no one comes. That's fine, who knows? But then you claim this is what Baba Ji said. He actually says the opposite of what you did.

You are claiming this is what Baba ji teaches. But in the video he teaches the opposite.

Baba Ji says the Lord comes.
Baba Ji says God wants everyone to reunite with Him.

Then he reassures the questioner by saying that when He takes the responsibility for taking the soul home, he fulfills that responsibility by coming for the soul upon their death.

"If He has taken on the responsibility of a soul he comes to take it."
7:35

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GD9kaZnzvpM&feature=youtu.be

You are most welcome to have your own views, as I do.

But when you claim this is what Baba Ji said, then anyone can watch the video and see for themselves that he says the opposite of what you claim he said.

"If He has taken on the responsibility of a soul he comes to take it."
7:35

from an earlier comment above:
"You wrote
" Spence has resolved this by creating his own version of sant mat,"

Exactly, Osho. We all do this of necessity. Make the best version for yourself you can. Don't try to say this is Sant Mat or any other label. Just create what works for you, what seems truthful for you. Your own belief system. We all must do this. Let's just be honest about it. It's a good and healthy thing. Then we can always strive to make it as honest as we can without imposing our system in anyone else."

So if I can create any belief I choose and that's healthy - regardless of whether it's true,
then you will gets guys like this claiming to be jesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WgpCBo79DM

this guy fully believes he is jesus
That is his subjective experience.
of course there is no outer evidence - but he doesnt care about other evidence
as long as he has his inner belief - he can carry on believing and it's comfortable for him

Is this healthy? to believe whatever you want to - regardless of the evidence


Hi Osho
You wrote
"So if I can create any belief I choose and that's healthy - regardless of whether it's true, then you will gets guys like this claiming to be jesus"

Yes, and guys like Osho and Spence, too. We all pick and choose what we elect to believe. No difference in the native fact that this is always our choice. Each human being.

Do your best Osho. Pick what works for you. You'll pick the system you are conditioned to pick. But avoid trying to impose that on others, shame others, etc.

Are you more objective, more rational, more balanced than that guy in the video? Do you have a pipeline up the Truth?

I'm sure you think so. Just like that other guy.

Hi Osho
When the questioner asks Baba Ji to take him when he dies, Baba Ji says

"If He has taken on the responsibility of a soul, He will come to take it."
At 7:30

https://youtu.be/GD9kaZnzvpM

Everyone had their own beliefs about Spiritualiy, but as for Baba Ji's teachings here, just days ago, he tells the questioner the One who took responsibility for the soul will come to take it.

Spence,

Okay, but aren't we trying to experience an ultimate reality? There has to be some objective something even behind everyday material existence, otherwise we couldn't compare notes on it. We can interpret it differently, but there's an "it" we all reference.

If there are beings interacting within and you work with them, there must be a shared "it" within as well.

Your thoughts?

@ Everyone had their own beliefs about Spiritualiy, but as for Baba Ji's teachings
@ here, just days ago, he tells the questioner the One who took responsibility
@ for the soul will come to take it.

The dissonance may be due to Baba Ji's surprising response
"I'm not coming for you at death" to another questioner. It
came up in CofC discussions here sometime earlier I recall.

Baba Ji, I suspect, was stressing that only the inner master
comes at death and not the stage actor talking to you now.
Lazily, perhaps inevitably in the beginning, the RSSB'er latches
onto (and is tunnel-visioned only with) the imagery and persona
of that stage actor.

The outer form is always intended to be a pointer to the real
form of the master within, to experiencing his presence there,
to finding 24x7 availability and friendship within.

I think the "relationship" he talks of in the current video is with
the inner master. Look beyond the outer form, fix the inner
one so you'll "recognize" him in the end.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"I think the "relationship" he talks of in the current video is with
the inner master. Look beyond the outer form, fix the inner
one so you'll "recognize" him in the end."

Yes, I firmly believe this is exactly what Gurinder is teaching. The emphasis is on our practice and our responsibility. Earlier in the same video he states clearly that we must all take full responsibility for every bit of our Karma. Same idea. We should act and feel as if it's entirely up to us. But what is? To reach out and connect in our meditation and even in our daily activity, to Master, to give everything to him. Later in the same video he jokes that giving him all our problems is just making him a garbage truck. He goes on to say we should just let go of all those things and be in his company, in our heart. So these are actually different stages. If it's all him, then he is doing everything all the time. But until we become aware of that we have our work to get there and should accept full responsibility to do so.


Hi Anami
You ask
"Okay, but aren't we trying to experience an ultimate reality? There has to be some objective something even behind everyday material existence, otherwise we couldn't compare notes on it. We can interpret it differently, but there's an "it" we all reference.

"If there are beings interacting within and you work with them, there must be a shared "it" within as well.

"Your thoughts?"

Our first responsibility is to become whole. Until then we generally project onto others our own issues.

Once we experience that Oneness, and it becomes a habit, communication with the entire world is more objective.

Never perfect, though, because, of course, our machinery here is a blob of wet fleshy brain tissue that creates a symbolic representation of this world we call seeing and hearing; whose thinking process is limited to that symbolic experience; and all of it changes and decays over time.

@ To reach out and connect in our meditation and even in our daily activity, to
@ Master, to give everything to him. Later in the same video he jokes that giving
@ him all our problems is just making him a garbage truck. He goes on to say we
@ should just let go of all those things and be in his company, in our heart.

I think that's right. We start with mindfulness to become aware of
mental garbage. Then, not engaging with it, we turn it over to a
friend within. Even joke about our chutzpah in doing so. What are
friends for if not humor and empathy?

It reminds me of Ishwar Puri's account of a "bargain" he made as a
child with Sawan Singh. It was "I turn over to you all the bad stuff
and you give me goodies in return". Sawan replied "Done!". The
only catch was holding back, trying to deal with some of the bad
stuff on your own. That voided the warranty.


Baba Ji, I suspect, was stressing that only the inner master
comes at death and not the stage actor talking to you now.
Lazily, perhaps inevitably in the beginning, the RSSB'er latches
onto (and is tunnel-visioned only with) the imagery and persona
of that stage actor. – Dungeness
And then spence writes
“Yes, I firmly believe this is exactly what Gurinder is teaching. The emphasis is on our practice and our responsibility. Earlier in the same video he states clearly that we must all take full responsibility for every bit of our Karma. Same idea. We should act and feel as if it's entirely up to us. “

Now – let’s use some intelligence here. Raise your hands if you ever thought that the physical master will come at your death.
Ahh… no hands in the air. Why? Because OBVIOUSLY the physical master can’t fly all around the world to be with the dying disciple as he is dying. I don’t know anyone at all who ever believed that the physical master comes at death.
He can only be talking about the “INNER” master when he says he is NOT coming.
Let’s just say, for the sake of argument that the inner master DOES come. He grabs the soul and takes the soul WHERE exactly? – There is NO PLACE.
He has already made it clear that there is no PLACE. No sach khand, no regions.
And there cannot be because God is BEYOND TIME and SPACE.
Now let me PROVE that he does not mean the inner master either.
I will just quote HIS ACTUAL WORDS – which now nobody can deny because they are recorded.
So here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dWAkmCmzAc
Now go to 4:45 “A certain separation is being felt within us as being separated from the father”
Now pay attention: “Mind you, I use the word FELT because THE SEPARATION IS NOT THERE”
Then he says “WE DON’T HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE WE DON’T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING, we just need to experience it within ourselves (i.e. UNDERSTAND it)”
Again “SO WE ARE NOT ACTUALLY SEPARATE”
Then he says “There is no question of GOING BACK – we are THERE already”

Now let me ask Dungeness and Spence a very simple question.
A REALLY simple question.
IF we are NOT separate, then WHY does a master need to come and take us anywhere to UNITE us with God – when we are ALREADY united?

Clearly there is a lot of selective hearing.

Brian here is some more insanity for you. This guy just did it like NIKE states....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSbzIgCGuSs

@ IF we are NOT separate, then WHY does a master need to come and take us
@ anywhere to UNITE us with God – when we are ALREADY united?

Why is a skilled psychotherapist needed to reunite an
amnesiac with the memories of who he already is.

It seems to me that a very small % just get 'it’. A large % are unconcerned/not interested in getting 'it’ and folks such as the like who post on this blog realise (at some stage?) that we require someone to point out to us that we don’t need someone to point ‘it’ out to us because we’re already ‘it’. Mystery.

@ Tim Rimmer
Cool. Excellent comment.
There is nothing to get except to understand that there is nothing to get.
and if you're still meditating, doing seva, etc etc etc, then clearly you don't "get it" yet

Dungeness

@ IF we are NOT separate, then WHY does a master need to come and take us
@ anywhere to UNITE us with God – when we are ALREADY united?

no - the correct answer is simpler:
If we are not separate - then obviously you don't need to be united.

take a simpler example:

If you are already sitting at HOME - then you dont need anyone to TAKE you home.

If you fully understand what GSD is saying - then thats the end of all searching.

If you are already there - clearly you dont need an escort or a taxi service to take you 'there'.

Also - its a lot more profound than that.
There is no "there" and there is no "here".
because that is the language of duality and separation.

There is already UNITY because there is no time and no space
so there is only the ONE and it covers all of space and time.

so there is no question of coming and going, birth and death
or even any individuality.

there are no individual souls or jivas. There cannot be. ONE means ONE not TWO or more


@ there are no individual souls or jivas. There cannot be. ONE means ONE
@ not TWO or more

Who said there were individual souls? Certainly not the mystic
unless the "individual" is understood to be an aspect of the
One.

"We're all one" we say emptily but a fragmented attention
span and ignorance of what's within our own consciousness
betray that emptiness. Look honestly. We satirize the mystic
and advance our superior scientific understanding but we
don't know the genesis of our next thought or where it will
lead. We philosophize on beauty and timelessness but
regularly fly into rages, air myriad grievances, and live in a
state of constant doubt. We fear shadows and what lurks
in the future.

In the end, words like UNITY and ONENESS are playthings for
children. They are pointers at best. When can ONE mean
many? When you have experience within and that logical
fallacy is still the closest metaphor you have for the ineffable
truth found there.

Our words and plodding logic falter. No mantras, including
RSSB's or soaring syllogisms give agency unless they are backed
up by experience within. It's better to keep an open mind
and remain silent without it. We should all heed that caution.
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZhCk6sieMA

7 mins in : no time and no space
no effort required
some call it consciousness, enlightenment, freedom
but it has no name.
and people follow methods, sadhanas
but there is no method and no way and no effort
I dont give any name because I don't want to deceive you.
otherwise you will follow me.
there exists no-one - you are alone - not even alone
alone you can say, only if the concept of another exists.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBIK-VFvDhA

Who are you? - I am that!
9:30 mins in: What is your message: I don't give any message because then the message will become a religious book.

you don't need any teaching

Osho,
You do'nt need any teaching..
Alright..but it does'nt matter what you door not do..
So you say ''when you meditate or do sewa you are not in the ''Oness''
I do'nt agree..
It does'nt make a difference what you do or ''not do''.

It's all in the same Spirit..

@ *s
where did I say
"So you say ''when you meditate or do sewa you are not in the ''Oneness''"

I may have said that meditation or seva has nothing to do with getting to oneness.

but the reason is - you already and always are the ONE because you are not the separate
self you think you are.

The one DOING the meditaiton or the seva is the separate person and the reason he is doing it
is because he wants to achieve or attain to the ONE
but does not realise that the ONE is all there is. Nothing to achieve - nowhere to go

because there is no separate self = all is ONE - all is God.

@ The one DOING the meditaiton or the seva is the separate person and the
@ reason he is doing it is because he wants to achieve or attain to the ONE but
@ does not realise that the ONE is all there is. Nothing to achieve - nowhere to
@ go because there is no separate self = all is ONE - all is God.

I'd agree but the problem with intellectualizing "all is the glorious One"
is that we haven't integrated it into our awareness. The addict knows
intellectually that meth is bad but within the hour he's shooting up. An
evangelist speaks loftily of forgiveness and mercy but back stage can
be heard cursing aides mercilessly for so many unsold seats.

Even knowing of oneness, repeating it faithfully, will never substitute
for an expansive awareness of it. Intellectual knowledge can roll off
the tongue easily but won't help in the end. Only actual experience
does. For that you have to go into consciousness itself for answers.
The mystics provide a method. There are no shortcuts.

The one DOING the meditaiton or the seva is the separate person and the reason he is doing it
is because he wants to achieve or attain to the ONE
Osho

But Osho going anywhere ,we all do..

When we go somewhere..................................no matter where ......we just stay the same..
So it does'nt matter where we go.
If we think we get heaven out of it?? Ore something like that..,then it's a different cooki..
It doesn't matter what we do or where we go..
You see my point?
I just like to do some sewa and sometimes satsang..just because..????.....

@ Tim Rimmer
Cool. Excellent comment.
There is nothing to get except to understand that there is nothing to get.
and if you're still meditating, doing seva, etc etc etc, then clearly you don't "get it" yet
Osho

And if you're still meditating,doing sewa,etc..,then clearly you don't'' get it''yet

That is not perse true,because we do all sorts of thing,even when we ''get it''
imhv (in my humble vieuw)
Sometimes I get it and sometimes the ''getting'' is gone..
It depends,still depends on ''feelings''.
I ''know'' that I have no free will..
No Free Will,from this point of vieuw from where'' I am''

I'd agree but the problem with intellectualizing "all is the glorious One"
is that we haven't integrated it into our awareness. – Dungeness
I am not intellectualising. You just think I am because you have a world view that says
“I have to have a mystical experience before it’s real – not just a viewpoint”
2+2 = 4
Is that just “intellectualising – or do I have to have an “inner awareness” to realise it.
If you have no understand of “2” or “4” or “+” then yes – you are repeating like a parrot.
Then there is no understanding of the formula.
However if you understand what “2” is. (i.e. you can count 1,2,3,4,5,6…..)
And you understand what “+” means (addition) – then you understand the formula.
You know it’s true – because you understand.
ONENESS is NOT intellectualising.
It’s not even a belief. It’s an understanding based on certain premises.
I will summarise – even though you will likely think I am intellectualising again.
Definition:
REAL means that which is FOREVER – ETERNAL – UNCHANGING – BEYOND TIME & SPACE.
This is a DEFINITION. Just understand it – nothing else to do with it.
Don’t believe it, have faith in it – just understand this is a DEFINITION.
So then UNREAL means what?
It means the opposite. So:
Everything within time and space. That which ends. Is born & dies.
That means YOU and ME and the world.
Spiritual texts call it MAYA (illusion) because it is NOT forever.

These are definitions. Nothing to realise or “work on” or “meditate on”
Nanak in japji simply states the above. Nothing mystical.
He calls the REAL, SACH (truth)
Just the word he uses.

So now – the next phase :
Everything in MAYA changes and ENDS and is called UNREAL.
That means anything you can SEE, HEAR, TASTE, FEEL, etc.
It is all UNREAL (by the above definition).
So what is the REAL like? Now you have to think – just a little.
So answer these questions:
Can there be TWO of the “REAL”?
WHERE is the REAL?
Does the REAL end?
Is there any MOVEMENT in the REAL?
Does the REAL think?
Does the REAL have any concepts (Like GOOD and BAD)
Is the REAL a person?
Does the REAL have any PURPOSE?
Is the REAL full of LOVE?
If you have understood the above – then there is only ONE answer
That answer is that the REAL is not anything you can point to.
It has NO attributes. (it’s called NIRGUN – no attributes by Gurbani)
There cannot be TWO of these “REAL” – hence we can CALL it the ONE
But not get hung up by the word.
It doesn’t mean what we project it to mean.
It doesn’t mean that we are all ONE and the same here in this world.
That we should LOVE each other because we are all the SAME ONE
It doesn’t mean that at all.
This is a projection of a MEANING onto a meaningless ONE / ZERO
ONE or REAL is not a belief.
It doesn’t require belief – just an understanding of a definition.
Doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree.
You cannot agree or disagree with a definition.
It’s not a proposition – just a definition.
It’s like if I define DOWN to mean “towards the earth”
And UP to mean away from the earth
For a person who is standing on the earth
And I define gravity to be a force that pulls object DOWN towards the earth
The UP / DOWN is a definition. The gravity part you can question – but not the UP / DOWN – as it is an arbitrary definition I have created to explain gravity.

In the same way, REAL / UNREAL is a definition.
Anything that changes – I DEFINE as unreal. I don’t care if it seems real to you
It seems real to me also – that’s not the point.
I have created a definition not a belief.
Within that definition – you can understand what is the ONE.
Take away your beliefs and you will suddenly “get it” and that is called realisation.
A moment when it all becomes OBVIOUS because you drop the life long held beliefs
(like for example : I have to have an INNER experience of the SHABD to KNOW the truth)

"I just like to do some sewa and sometimes satsang..just because..????....." - S*

no - you don't do anything "just because" - you only think you do.

Why don't you go shoot someone "just because" ?

Well obviously because that is a "BAD" thing to do

so the "seva" and "satsang" must be a GOOD thing to do.

The mind is tricky.

How many "BAD" things do you do?
do you consider yourself to be a GOOD or a BAD person?


So now - to cover the other point that "we all DO - we cannot avoid DOING"

But there is a HUGE difference.
You are not trying to attain any subtle benefit.
Clearly you have heard that SEVA has benefits - and you want them

The mind is greedy - it WANTS - that is all it does - want want want....
before it wanted things in the world
then you join a spiritual organisation (Like RSSB)
and the SAME GREED is still there
So now it wants MUKTI, inner progress, the shabd, peace, seva, etc.
still the same desire. Nothing has changed.

The gurbani says "There is no YOU" hence you cannot do anything
you are a puppet - a wave in the ocean. The ocean creates you and then you disappear.
Just like the waves - you have no separate existence - only the ocean is real - not the waves.
the waves come and go. The ocean doesn't. The ocean remains - but the waves are born and die.
humans are born and die. They are no more real that the waves.
The ONE remains (but you cannot SEE the one - as SEEING requires TWO)


“That is not true, per se, because we do all sorts of things, even when we ''get it''
Sometimes I get it and sometimes the ''getting'' is gone..
It depends, still depends on ''feelings''.
I ''know'' that I have no free will..
No Free Will, from this point of view from where ''I am'' - s*

It doesn’t depend on feelings. You don’t KNOW that you have no free will
because you FEEL you have free will (we all do).
So your claim to KNOW is a lie.

It’s not about feelings – it’s about understanding correctly.
Once you understand the ONE – there is no place for a YOU!
Because that would make TWO.
However there is STILL a YOU – here in this world and this will continue
even after that understanding – and that is not a BAD thing.
You are not trying to KILL the “YOU” or the DUALITY
- but rather to simply understand.
In that correct understanding – you are already dead even though you
exist within time and space (everything within time and space is unreal remember)

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