Open Thread 33 (free speech for comments)

Here's a new Open Thread.

Remember, off-topic comments should go in an Open Thread. 

If you don't see a recent comment, or comments, posted, it's because you've failed to follow the above rule. Keep to the subject of a blog post if you leave a comment on it. And if you want to use this blog as a "chat room," do that in an open thread.

As noted before, it's good to have comments in a regular blog post related to its subject, and it's also good to have a place where almost anything goes in regard to sharing ideas, feelings, experiences, and such. That place is an Open Thread.

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Remember that I'm moderating comments, so it could take a while for your comment to be published. Almost every comment submitted to an Open Thread will be approved. Personal attacks on someone are an exception, as is hate speech. Argue with ideas, not insults.

Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. You can always find an Open Thread that way.

So if you're a believer in some form of religion, mysticism, or spirituality, this is where you can put your "praise God," "praise Guru," or "praise _______" comments.

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

Dear Karen, You wearing a mask reduces the infected droplets in the area. My wearing a mask reduces the droplets I breath in. If we both wear masks, we more than double the chances of avoiding covid-19.

[Sonia 🦁🐯🐻❤️]

Here’s your daily dose of happy❣️
https://youtu.be/_BvB0182xag
❤️❤️❤️ 🦁🐯🐻 🥰🥰🥰

[Apnehochi namastari]

There it is the work of Karma
Lions tigers bears chimps bulldogs jaguars all have souls, personalities, feel and appreciate love and affection, across species, across typical instinct.

every living creature has a soul and embodiment of love, while humans watch and marvel at the mystery of the play of love, love in the end owns the heart and owns the world and the universe and the show.

[Sonia]

every living creature has a soul and embodiment of love, while humans watch and marvel at the mystery of the play of love, love in the end owns the heart and owns the world and the universe and the show.

Posted by: Apnehochi namastari | July 01, 2020 at 01:58 PM

They do indeed. And according to Kabir there are bedazzled fish among other things in the realm of Mansorvar (above Trikuti). So, aside from simply not eating animals, I think we should appreciate what they can teach us about Love.

[Sonia]

@manjit

No, I’m not surprised at all. 😂

Thanks for your suggestion. So, I placed an order for this:

Genius Mushroom – Lions Mane, Cordyceps and Reishi – Immune System Booster & Nootropic Brain Supplement – Wellness Formula for Natural Energy, Stress Relief, Memory & Liver Support, 90 Veggie Pills https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078SJ9F5S/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_1ar.Eb8GX8J3F

I’m going to test it out on my husband first since he’s more sensitive to meds/supplements than I am and it’s good for stomach ulcers which is a serious hereditary problem for the men in his family.

I can’t do trippy. I’m interested in it restoring the myelin sheath around nerves and immune support. 🤞

It arrives tomorrow. (Will definitely let you know the results.)

[Sonia]

Georgy,

Yes, it’s a big commitment. Seems like your the kind of person that once you’ve committed to something you stick with it come hell or high water.

I totally understand that. I mean, I’m not like you. I’ll start questioning. But it takes me a very long time to commit to anyone—friend or otherwise and once I do it’s extremely difficult for me to walk away. I have only a few friends (well about 10) and I’ve been friends with them for years. I’m the queen of dysfunctional relationships simply because I’d rather stick around and try to make sense of things than start all over. I’m somewhat addicted to change EXCEPT for when it comes to friends and partners. I don’t like change in that area of my life. It takes waaaay too long for me to form new bonds. I don’t know how people can jump in and out of new relationships. It’s the history that gives substance and strength to the foundation between people—even if the history was difficult. It just shows that there’s a determination to make it work.

We’re all different, Georgy. I hope at some point you can appreciate that.

[Sonia]

I mean, this blog is a perfect example. I hardly use social media at all. And I may read other blogs and check out comments on Quora and Reddit but I’ve never posted a comment on any of them. I feel like it’s my typical dysfunctional nature, but I’m comfortable with Brian and this blog and the commenters here so I’m pretty much an open book here minus all the shit I would never tell ANYONE 😂 (and there’s more of that than you know).

It takes a long time to get comfortable with people and I certainly don’t expect anyone to be “perfect”.

[Sonia]

Tom Papa is hilarious. I think his philosophy on life (surface level) is pretty spot on.

https://youtu.be/ABNus3skvfk

[j]

If masks are the answer, why didn't the Masters of Science recommend them from the beginning?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/will-a-face-mask-protect-you-11589842953

It turns out that masks do very little to ensure that germs aren't spread. Ask anyone (like myself) who picked up an infection after surgery in a supposedly sterile OR from a mask-wearing surgical team.

But now it has become an article of faith that masks are the only thing standing between the survival of humanity and a wholesale Wuhan wipeout. There's no scientific evidence for that dogma.

Wearing the mask is like repeating the 5 names or ordering the relentless rennet-less cheese. A bit of virtue signaling to yourself that you're one of the Good People who Cares, and is Making a Difference. But the difference your mask makes to protect you or anyone else is jack squat. Your experts have been wrong about this crisis every step of the way, yet you still show up for satsang.

Or perhaps sporting a mask is like wearing a turban. Omg, don't leave home with it! Without the Fauci Face Diaper ou'll be a social pariah, a renegade, a desecrator of all that is holy.

[Sonia]

@7

Have you tried this? (I had to use the tiny url shortened so hopefully you can open the link. I usually use google url shortened but they’ve changed theirs.)

https://tinyurl.com/y9z8vmnh

DHEA has gotten a lot of hype for a few decades now. Just recently I started taking Spirulina and Chlorella daily. Next I’ll try seaweed and nori 🤢 on a weekly basis for full Omega 3s since I can’t take fish oil.

You’re doing great at 83!!!

Kabir lived like 150 or so years (supposedly) which would make you almost middle aged. And that was during the Middle Ages when life expectancy was < 31

[Sonia]

There it is the work of Karma
Lions tigers bears chimps bulldogs jaguars all have souls, personalities, feel and appreciate love and affection, across species, across typical instinct.

every living creature has a soul and embodiment of love, while humans watch and marvel at the mystery of the play of love, love in the end owns the heart and owns the world and the universe and the show.

Posted by: Apnehochi namastari | July 01, 2020 at 01:58 PM

Yes, when I meet a person who has completely opposite beliefs or faith than I do, but has noticeably compassionate and empathic actions towards others, it warms my heart. It makes it “real” and serves as a beautiful reminder—there is truly a spirit unifying everything.

[unmaskzorro]

J,

Be sure to tell your Dentist, your surgeon, and others in the profession to forego their masks since you
have discovered that they don't work one bit.

Glad to know you are an expert from one anecdote.

Make sure you inform the University of California, San Francisco, since you know stuff they don't.

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

[Dungeness]

@ It turns out that masks do very little to ensure that germs aren't spread.

But even if it prevents only one infection, it could save a
life... or potentially many in an exploding pandemic.

[Georgy Porgy]

I highly doubt you question things any more than me, especially with the beliefs you have (many of which I find completely wierd and just plain NS to be honest). My more rational background makes me skeptical about virtually everything (which undoubtedly hamstrings me spiritually).

Buy hey believe what you must. If it makes you feel better about yourself, I won’t interfere. I get the feeling you’re more about telling yourself warm fuzzy stories and believing, rather than wanting the truth warts and all. Big difference. No kissy kissy kum ba yah group hugs for me. If it helps you, good, but I don’t think it does. Just my opinion.

[Georgy Porgy]

For example, I don’t believe in the fairy tales of Rupert Sheldrake. I don’t believe in the use of supplements like eye of newt or any other isolated compound. I don’t believe in alchemy and all the other nonsense you’re researching. I don’t believe in demons, hob-goblins, satanism, the occult and all the other wierd BS that you and others indulge your imaginations in.

Away with the fairies... 🧚‍♀️ 🧚‍♀️

[Sonia]

OMG, Georgy, aside from thinking GSD is the be all and end all, what do you believe??

I’m glad you don’t believe in demons. They’re really just shadows of our dark side. You must not have a dark side...

You don’t believe in supplements? Where do you think pharmacology comes from?? Same stuff just taken apart and added with other compounds from nature.

Are you going to tell me you don’t suffer from any physical ailments? Are you in perfect health or do you take some sort of Christian Science approach to health. Talk about fairies. 🧚‍♀️

I guess if I worshipped the guru like he was God then you wouldn’t care what I said about anything else. Well, I would if he weren’t so goddamn mean. Seriously, what does he truly care about? I honestly can’t tell.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

You’ve never met me. I’m chill in that I’m not a control freak at all. I let everyone around me (including my pets) live however they want to—as long as they don’t do something completely, insanely ridiculous. But I’m certainly not a huggy huggy person by any stretch of the imagination. I take an extremely avante garde approach to life. And I’m sure that would make you and your black and white mind explode.

Maybe GSD isn’t “mean” but aside from his own family and the Dera (OMG the Dera) I don’t think he cares about anything else. I mean he takes a lot of pride in the Dera. He takes a lot of pride in the size of the sangat. He takes a lot of pride in RSSB being a respected organization. He takes a lot of pride period.

But God help you if you get on his bad side. He just waits for you to finally think it’s safe and then he pounced. That much I finally learned. I would never let my guard down around him again.

But hey, he’s doing a stellar job building RSSB into a highly respected global religiously-spiritual philosophy. Kudos to him. Not sure anyone else could have done what he’s done. And I doubt anyone else would have cared enough to...

You should meet him someday.

[Georgy Porgy]

How is the guru ‘mean’ and how do I ‘worship’ him?

I believe your antenna is not working properly and that you mistake meanness with goodness, and worship with respect.

I don’t really know what your problem is with the guru but until there is firm evidence for your statements, I won’t believe your fabrications and fairy stories. Sorry, I just won’t.

As for supplements, unless there is some v good reason why you are deficient, our bodies have evolved naturally to digest whole food, not isolated supplements. I suspect for 99% of human beings many of these supplements cause more cancers and health issues than if they were not taken. Two generations of doctors in the family - nature is best cure.

I have no problem with you believing what you want, I just don’t believe in any of it. Again, it’s just a matter of difference. If you believe in the Easter bunny and it makes you happy go for it.

[Georgy Porgy]

You need to read what is being said, not what you think is being said.

No I don’t believe GSD is the be and end all. Yes, I respect him. No, I don’t worship him. Yes, I think he is good, not mean.

Yes, I don’t think it is right too slander individuals without evidence, and yes I believe if you are going to do so, it is fair and indeed necessary for the same to be done to you.

No, I don’t believe in demons. Yes, I suspect everyone has a dark side. No, this doesn’t mean suicide is okay. Yes, I believe it is selfish, perhaps the most selfish act there is if you have ppl who care about you.

Yes, I think you are a confused sensitive person. Yes, I think the guru cares about you. No, I don’t think you are bad. Yes, I believe you take your own problems and issues in life out on the guru. No I don’t think it’s right that you do so.

Yes I believe evidence-based medicine is a v good thing. No I don’t believe honey-suckle extract, horny goat weed or other supplements will cure any disease or ailment, unless there is objective consistent peer-reviewed double-blind evidence for it (amazon reviews from Aunt Hempseed don’t count).

No I’m not Christian or any other religion. Unlike virtually everyone of you I was born into an atheist household. No I’ve not been initiated. No I’m not american. Yes, I like toast with marmite.

Anything else?

[manjit]

Hi Sonia,

I really liked this line: "I’m going to test it out on my husband first"....haha, must be nice to have a guinea pig to experiment on :)

Yeah give it a go, see if there is any discernible benefits to your well-being. I think the benefits are unquestioned. Contrary to some of Georgy Porgy's typically grossly ignorant and superficial understanding of both generalities (health, healing, science and medicine in general, despite claiming to be from a family of "2 generations of doctors") and specifics (mushrooms, for example), there is an overwhelming body of evidence going back thousands of years of the benefits of those mushrooms. There is also a very large body of recent scientific evidence which supports the usage of them in Chinese medicine for thousands of years, for example. There are literally thousands of articles out there for each of these mushrooms you mention, nearly all of which reference scientific studies which support the real-world beneficial use of these as medicines for millennia, such as here: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323400 https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1536/hericium-erinaceus https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/lions-mane-mushroom etc etc. Even a cursory search would have shown this, but unfortunately a sign of the times and social media is that people patently unqualified, either academically, experientially, informationally or intellectually to discuss a subject, and far worse too lazy to even perform cursory google or wiki searches on a subject, are able to proffer their ignorant and arrogant views just as loudly as somebody who actually does know what they're talking about!

Georgy writes: "No I don’t believe...... other supplements will cure any disease or ailment, unless there is objective consistent peer-reviewed double-blind evidence for it".

To conflate "objective consistent peer-reviewed double-blind evidence" with the effectiveness or not of a medicine is staggeringly naive, a parroting of ideas without any real understanding of the subject. As I have already provided links to several articles (found in less than 1 minute....such hard work this, educating myself!) which in turn refer to possibly hundreds of scientific studies about mushrooms, the point is already absurd. However there is a deeper absurdity, that of mindless deference to the cultural dominant of scientism, that there is no such thing as medicine unless it is an artificial pharmaceutical which has had millions of dollars of "double-blind peer reviewed research" on it. Or the even deeper, but far more complex absurdity of the notion of health as being an entirely materialist reductive problem, an ideology where happiness can be purchased for the price of an artificial pharmaceutical that one is dependant on for life. That's really working out great for you, isn't it, my dear by now surely un-depressed Americans? Oh naive ones, which company is going to spend millions of dollars conducting research on a fungi that can be grown for more or less nothing by everyone in their garage or attic?

It's funny I read these comments today....it happened right after I read a chapter from the so far most excellent and informative "Plant Intelligence and the Imaginal Realm" by Stephen Harrod Buhner. The chapter was about the absolutely mind blowing intelligence of bacteria. And how the arrogant & hubristic views of scientism, unbridled from any kind of holistic understanding of either self, bacteria or the environment in general, led to the unrestrained use of anti-biotics (literally "anti-life"), based on the idea we clever and scientifically all-powerful humans could wipe out these "dangerous" bacteria without any consequences...these are the kind of hubristic illusions and delusions a "scientific" world view which considers mind and consciousness as either illusions or materialistic epi-phenomena, rather than part & parcel of reality, or that intelligence is purely a product of the brain, leads to.

The problem is, no, we humans cannot act on the environment without holistic understanding and not expect any consequences. No, "intelligence" isn't only the product of a "brain". Superficial pop-science, the high priests of atheism and scientism etc may loudly declare otherwise, but those scientists who actually work deeply in these areas have been proclaiming for decades there are huge and vast gaps in our models, and that reality, consciousness, biology, eco-systems etc are far more mysterious and un-understood than these ideological priests proclaim.

Point being, pharmaceutical companies and doctors prescribed anti-biotics - which are non-biodegradable and live in our environment, soil, oceans etc forever - without any restraint. But the bacteria those anti-biotics were targeting are so incredibly intelligent (it really is astonishing, we're talking communication across the world, and across different species & genus, a level of intelligent co-operation that we humans are a very long way from achieving!) that within a few decades bacteria is fast becoming resistant to any potential anti-biotic we can create. Now, antibiotic resistant bacteria are the 4th leading cause of death in the USA: https://www.nrdc.org/experts/david-wallinga-md/drug-resistant-superbugs-4th-leading-cause-death-us. And, apparently, it is only going to get a lot worse......within our lifetimes, scientists believe we will have absolutely no effective antiobiotics left. I'm sure a lot of us comprehend what that implies for healthcare, surgery, hospitals etc, and it is a horrific picture.

So, this is where the masculine world-view of short-sighted, nature-dominating scientism, allied to rampant capitalism but disconnected from nature, consciousness, being etc, leads us. Hubris. Ironically, considering the conversation on this thread, antibiotics are almost always made from fungi! If we could have maintained a more direct and intimate connection with nature, with plants and fungi as medicines, with nature and animals in general, we may have a created a more idyllic society where rampant global capitalism and the delusion of human, scientific mastery over life the universe and everything are not the only values we cherish as a society.....a more deeply connected existence to (as a small part of, not master of) the world, plants, fungi and animals around us, marked by moments of deep joy, happiness, contentment, love, connection and clarity, not based on monetary wealth or possessions, or "followers" or "likes" received etc (and as is evident to me, anyway, nobody I know with these things has ever demonstrated joy and happiness to me......fear, anger, hate, jealousy, ingratitude, sense of privilege and entitlement marked by meltdowns when reality that they are nothing kicks in....yes, all of these abound....but happiness, peace, contentment, love, lack of fear, lack of hate, even in the face of the material circumstances of death and suffering? Cannot be purchased or manufactured in a laboratory).

Ahh, but that too is just a naive dream and fantasy. As is evident from the online space, we humans are far too attached to our delusions and illusions of knowledge, wisdom and understanding, even when it is so exceptionally obvious and clear we are factually and experientially clueless.

[Other Jen]

Georgy you mentioned you are born in an atheist home. As an atheist what are your views on the creation? Do you believe in the Big Bang? How did this universe come into existence? And do you feel there is anything superior to yourself?

[manjit]

Hi "j",

You write, amongst other profoundly dubious and incoherent defenses of Trump and his various delusions, fantasies and outright lies: "Or perhaps sporting a mask is like wearing a turban. Omg, don't leave home with it! Without the Fauci Face Diaper ou'll be a social pariah, a renegade, a desecrator of all that is holy.".

Hehe. Oh dear. Khalil Gibran once wrote "I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers." I have to be honest "j", you have been a wonderful teacher to me regarding the Cult of Trump, and I am very grateful to you for that :)

It's truly amusing you are trying to insinuate the mindless "religion" here is that of science (not scientism, which simply has not been a factor in the current fast moving COVID crises, where real-world fast moving science is at the fore and not ideology, which needs time) and face masks......when it is beyond clear that it is the mindless Cult of Trump, with all it's ceaseless disconnection from reality, lies, distortions, mindless and meaningless mantras ("lock her up", "we need to build a wall" etc), appeal to the basest of emotions and identity, bypassing rationality etc, that is really only explicable by the dynamics and psychology of dangerous cults. Yes, dangerous.

I have spent enough time discussing topics with those brainwashed, indoctrinated and conditioned by cults - the vast majority of which nowhere near as dangerous as the cult of Trump - to not be naive enough to think there is any chance of having a constructive, intelligent, fact based discussion on the subject which would cause you to reconsider your irrational beliefs. However, having had online discussions with you for almost 2 decades and respecting your presence and opinions on the old RSS forum, I am certainly staggered - this is the sense in which I learn from you how cultic beliefs can cause intelligent people to act so irrationally - that you are unable to recognise how your belief in Trump as the Perfect Infallible Lord Saviour of all mankind has caused you to repeatedly make utterly absurd, incoherent and easily proven factually disconnected from reality statements?

This goes back to your posts in support of climate change denial/scepticism based purely on blog posts by a pro-Trump cartoon writer, contradicting the vast majority of scientists who actually know what they're talking about. At the time what astounded me most was you did not recognise the sheer absurdity of pitting a singular cartoon writer who clearly didn't know what he was talking about, against 99% of scientific experts (and shamans, visionary travellers, even Gurinder it seems based on his recent videos etc), when it comes to the climate and environment? Because it supported the Saviour Trump's view, which we know is infallible and we as humanity would be silly to take precautions just in case He may be mistaken, and that scientists, mystics and shamans are actually, for once, in accordance and perhaps right. No, of course not! Trump, mistaken? Unbeliever! We absolutely must risk all life on earth based on this Sant's random ramblings, he has never been wrong so far about anything, ever!

Since then you have ceaselessly defended indefensible Trumpian absurdities with incoherent and non sequitur arguments, and very often utterly disconnected from reality - like when you posted an article showing "10 great things about Sant Trump", one of which was that his actions has garnered him and america great respect from the rest of the world, and you posted it at a time when nearly every single country in the world signed a UN mandate or something condemning Trump's unilateral actions in Isreal and Palestine. Since day one Trump has been nothing short of a figure or ridicule and embarrassment across the entire political spectrum all across Europe, and how badly it reflects on America cannot be expressed verbally, but we will all feel the fall-out over the next few decades; nobody considers USA the world leader anymore. But in the mind of a Trump Cultee, the whole world stands in wonderment and awe at the magical perfection of Sant Trump!! I find it hard to conceive of a delusion further disconnected from reality, yet so easily disproved, than this. Yet this will not deter Trumpians from believing!

And here we are now, like a typical brainwashed cult member, you are claiming anyone who disagrees with you is the brainwashed cult member, even though all the evidence points in the other direction and the claim doesn't even make sense applied to Fauci,it is pure Freudian projection.....and more importantly, the virulent and rage-filled (pun intended, on multiple levels :) antagonism to what should be rather simple and inoffensive guideliness, like wearing a mask, reveal the real emotional root of this situation in USA. It is not as if people are being drafted to join armies to fight wars on foreign soils (or dodging the draft, like Sant Trump did.......still, at least he managed to win the Vietnam war single handed, or at least I presume his followers believe so).

There is a reason countries in Asia like South Korea, China, Singapore etc have managed to flatten the curve so very rapidly......and you will note they all wear masks. They are not silly. USA and it's leadership, on the other hand, is looking very, very silly to the rest of the world right now. The face mask isn't Fauci's invention, recommendation or holy symbol - Fauci is simply a representative of a general consensus of medical and scientific experts. Your inability, "j", to recognise that is due to your clearly being brainwashed into the mindless cult of Trump. Whatever he says, you will agree with, and whoever disagrees with him, you will make inane and meaningless criticisms of. The depth of this absurdity has already been plumbed - he knows more about the economy, race-relations, law enforcement, the environment, climate change, health and viruses than all the world's experts combined - and he manages to pull all this off without ever showing any hint he has ever read any book on anything, or demonstrating an IQ higher than my shoe size. Quite some feat......perhaps he is a Perfect Living Master after all?

What did you expect when you voted in a leader whose only platform is hate, division, fear & greed?

Be happy Trumpians, you wanted a wall; now the rest of the world had banned your citizens from entering their countries. There's your wall.

How safe do you feel now?

[Sonia]

Anything else?

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 02, 2020 at 01:33 AM

I like toast with Marmite too. Just bought a jar yesterday at my favorite store, World Market. It felt so good to walk around and feel like the world was “normal” again. Even though that’s a terrible illusion because COVID-19 is here to stay.

Fair is fair. I’ll concede to that.

Hope you get a chance to read Manjit’s comment. I couldn’t have possibly, not in a month of Sundays, said it better myself.

When I visit South Africa I get to enjoy fresh home grown produce. It isn’t always as pretty or perfect looking as what we have on display in our American stores (because all we care about are appearances) but tastes so much better! And it’s so much healthier!

Well all that is changing for South Africa, Europe and most likely in the land down under. Now that you’re incorporating corporate farming practices you’ll get more and more frankenfoods, more preservatives (most new preservatives are built into the actual packaging itself).

So, because the modern diet is so toxic and healthy foods aren’t so healthy or natural anymore, it’s important to take things like probiotics and vitamins/minerals. If you ever go vegetarian you might seriously want to start eating seaweed or nori OR you could take Spirulina and Chlorella to make sure you’re getting all of your Omega 3s.

I’m surprised you aren’t subscribing to the old school scientific belief that humans evolved to be carnivores. Vitamin B12? Omega 3 and Omega 6?

Would you or would you not agree that you have a very rigid mindset? (Be careful, that puts you at far greater risk for developing Alzheimer’s).

[Sonia]

@Georgy, don’t worry I’m not going to talk about your guru anymore. I’ll just keep my guard up and wish you the best.

[Georgy Porgy]

Howdy Other Jen

Father out-an-our atheist, mother more spiritual. I probably was atheistic/agnostic, but I’m not anymore. I consider religion total rubbish, but have mellowed a bit. If it gives ppl comfort, I’m not going to try take that away. As long as it’s not foisted on me, fine.

Creation is a mystery, but I think the scientific explanation for creation (ie the Big Bang) is still vastly better than any other. What do you you is a better explanation.

However I can definitely understand those who feel the Big Bang theory is still very incomplete. Unlike many physicists, I don’t believe that questions like what came before or caused the Big Bang are meaningless at all. They are the biggest questions and science doesn’t come close to answer this.

As for superiority, many if not most things are superior to me. Actually the atheist view might be that we humans are positively inferior. It was religion who thought humans were special and the earth the Centre of the solar system. It’s only with modem science we realized that the sun, not the earth, is the Centre of our solar system. In universal terms, earth is the 3rd rock from the sun orbiting an exceptional star, amount millions of others in an unexceptional outer part of our galaxy in an unexceptional galaxy.

We are animals, hairless apes, who don’t have many if any superior physical traits, except for our intelligence. I suspect in such a big universe it is likely that there are far more intelligent species than ours that have evolved to be top of the food chain on other planets.

We’ve only existed as a species for a short time, with many others coming and going before us. For most of the existence of our short-lived species, most of us have died way before adulthood. Even if we’re lucky we lead lives that are 80 -100 revolutions around the sun, an eye-blink in time. 99,99% of all the hairless apes that have existed aren’t even remembered and you and me won’t be in a generation or two. As an atheist, there is no afterlife or greater existential meaning during life, so the atheist veiwpoint is about as bleak and grounded as you can get. Whether it’s right or not is another issue.

As a humanist, I don’t like the belief that one tribe or group or even individual is superior to another based on stupid things like colour, creed or sexual tastes.

So in short, no I don’t think I’m superior. Probably lower than dust.

[Sonia]

@Georgy, I lied, I am going to say something more about your guru.

So, here it is—about 18 months ago I asked him a question about suicide and his answer put me in such a tailspin that I was literally seconds from taking my own life that evening. (I wonder what he would have thought if I had died that night. Probably, “she deserved it”.)

Then a few weeks ago he’s all “suicide is the most evil thing you can do”.

Full circle.

[Sonia]

It’s hard to love someone that you’re pretty certain wants you dead. (Relationships 101)

[Sonia]

@manjit

Perfectly well said. 🙏

I read your comment several times (a lot to digest) and I appreciate all of it.

“there is a deeper absurdity, that of mindless deference to the cultural dominant of scientism, that there is no such thing as medicine unless it is an artificial pharmaceutical which has had millions of dollars of "double-blind peer reviewed research" on it. Or the even deeper, but far more complex absurdity of the notion of health as being an entirely materialist reductive problem, an ideology where happiness can be purchased for the price of an artificial pharmaceutical that one is dependant on for life.“

Amen to that!

My GENIUS package should be arriving any minute now. I’ll let you know... I’m super sensitive to all substances. It’s like there’s something seriously impaired with my BBB. That’s why I want to test it on my guinea pig. But he’s more sensitive than I am. It’s just he doesn’t have the same scary neural pathways that I have (which I’m trying to avoid being activated).

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonia,

Hmmm, a rigid mindset you say.

How many scientific atheists do you know who have adopted a spiritual stance? Not the other way around.

I’m open-minded, but not so open-minded as that my mind falls out. I don’t simply believe in every fad or conspiracy theory that comes along, or any other unsubstantiated rubbish.

I’m not a flake or fool, so yeah if that’s what you mean by being rigid, then fine I am rigid. I believe one should use your brain to discriminate between truth and fiction.

Hinesey Ji’s commandments won’t allow me to post if I give my honest views on Manjit, so I will have to hold my tongue.

[Georgy Porgy]

But Sonia, excuse my rigidity, but wtf are you even worried about Spirulina in your diet if you are borderline suicidal?

I mean is it just me that’s lost my marbles when I read this ...

[manjit]

Georgy Porgy wrote: "Hinesey Ji’s commandments won’t allow me to post if I give my honest views on Manjit, so I will have to hold my tongue."

Now now Georgy Porgy, no need to hide behind Sir Hines' blog rules, this is an open thread remember. I hereby give my full permission for you to let loose. Don't worry, I won't hold it against you :)

You write: "Anything else" and then "I’m not a flake or fool".

Well, okay, yes, actually, there is something else Georgy "I have absolutely no connection to Gurinder or RSSB" Porgy; What is your age, your background, and how precisely did you come across Gurinder and RSSB? In other words, what exactly is your family connection to RSSB and why do you hide behind obscurity, ambiguity and outright deception? These are simple and basic foundations of decent, honest and mature discussion. It is evident after many months of your posting here you have no interest in sharing any "sat" about yourself (despite clearly being a follower of the religion of "sat"gurus, "sat"sang, "sat"nam etc), these basic foundations of sincere communication, yet have the temerity to criticise, judge and indeed mock posters here who share so openly, so vulnerably their own lives - showing their decent, sincere hearts - those here who clearly have far more experience of RSSB and Gurinder than you, all whilst you yourself hide behind pseudonyms, pure anonymity and deceptions about your own background and association with RSSB etc.

It is beyond obvious - there simply is very little chance any genuinely impartial objective person would consider the bland, non-descript "satsangs" of Gurinder, a guy for whom the only apparent reason for his position is nepotism, a guy clearly heavily involved with greed, fraud and other unpleasantry which no impartial person - by which I mean unrelated by family to the religion, or aged 60+ and involved with the religion for decades - could ever portray Gurinder and his bland teachings and presence as you do. So why don't you admit your actual relationship to this religion and major player in a huge fraud trial?

It is an absolutely absurd situation.

As is your irrational blind belief that Gurinder cares (or even knows) about posters here, or the notion that any and all advice he gives could be nothing but supremely helpful and beneficial simply by sheer fact of his position (inherited via family will....I never realised wisdom and mystical knowledge was vouchsafed this way?), and that anyone who contradicts it would obviously be negative and bad advice.

This is pure delusional cultic nonsense.

Gurinder does try, but he is a fool and an ass. His position gives him far more confidence in his own views than is warranted by reality. His lack of compassion, wisdom, tact and kindness when it comes to issues like mental health and suicide really very telling, regardless of the mindless defence of anything and everything he says by devoted satsangis, no less delusional than acolytes of Trump, the cognitive dissonance must be quite difficult to live with.

He is so confused, I somewhat want to educate him on his foolish and incoherent views, that no doubt are mindlessly believed by his followers despite even a cursory examination of them showing them clearly to be utterly meaningless drivel :)

In his recent series of Q&A videos, Gugu has repeatedly extolled the absolute dominance of "karma" in our lives. I think somewhat prior to those videos, I posted this random screed on the baseless concept of juridical karma as a driver for transmigration or metempsychosis, which is so thoroughly indoctrinated into our world-view that we can no longer see it's edges, so unquestioned this intellectual concept has become in so many minds across the world: https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/203288 https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/203342 https://groups.io/g/RadhasoamiStudies/message/203522

Now, I fully suspect the concept of juridical karma is so deeply indoctrinated in the intellectual world-view, that these posts will not make any sense to the vast majority of readers here.

So I will try to simplify and re-apply to the incoherency of Gurinder's views on karma, and by virtue of that the absurdity of his defenders on forums like this who believe defending the cult of RSSB is more important than treating people who admirably open up their flaws & vulnerabilities - like Sonia, Osho R or Spence etc - with DUE respect, kindness and tact.

In the first Gugu video I believe, Gurinder clearly states all our life circumstances are pre-destined by our karma, up to and including the moment and means of death. Further, there is absolutely no possible violation of these "karmas", regardless of how much bhakti or grace we may receive.

In further videos, he clarifies that what can change is our inner reaction to karmas, to life's events, through our meditation, but not the karmas themselves.

Sounds reasonable, no? At this point, I imagine many thousands of satsangis nodding their heads, imagining they've learnt something wise and profound, simply because the great grandson of some other dude in a turban they've never met but read loads of books about said so.

The problem is, no, this really, really isn't reasonable - it is actually profoundly incoherent and meaningless.

You see, dear beloveds, if you can change your inner reaction to "karmas" and life's events......then you obviously also change your outer reaction to those events, which by cause and effect extension, will change your future life circumstances. Therefore it is exceptionally unlikely you will die from, say gang violence, opioid overdose or suicide if you make the choice to pursue meditation and a life of spirituality, via which you became calmer, more peaceful, less reactive to anger, absent of fear, hatred, bigotry and prejudice etc (and, btw, this really can and does happen to people, for absolute certain.....despite what several nihilists may say, people can change if they have the conscious intent to do so).

So it is absolutely clear that Gurinder's distinction between karma and our inner state is a false dichotomy, a mental and conceptual dogma mistaken for some aspect of reality itself, but that obviously makes no practical sense if even a little critical thought is applied to his incessant ramblings on karma :) His view is actually a confused nihilistic one, but one that adds in the incoherent "spiritual" aspect of meditation being able to change your "inner reaction or state" without having any effect whatsoever on your material circumstances......as if you could attain inner peace, happiness and love, yet beat someone to death for looking at you strange......that was just karma, after all!

Absurd and incoherent.

So, to hear Gurinder tactlessly, judgmentally (Kal, anyone?) and patently unskillfully & unhelpfully call suicide a "sin".....when only two videos back he was saying our mode and time of death is predestined and unviolable - more unacknowledged confusion and contradiction, you'll note - is pretty darn unpleasant....and then to hear anonymous RSSB apologists defend this heartless dogma directly in the face of brave and courageous people who have opened up about their struggles with mental health, is an absolute disgrace imo.

This is what cults do, they close you down to reality, and open you up to heartless, joyless, compassionless lives, full of judgement, anger and fear.

But, to each their own I suppose.....

[Sonia]

But Sonia, excuse my rigidity, but wtf are you even worried about Spirulina in your diet if you are borderline suicidal?

I mean is it just me that’s lost my marbles when I read this ...

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 02, 2020 at 12:20 PM

I’m not suicidal NOW, you idiot. 😂

I was back in Dec 2018 after I realized that I was farther from God than I ever knew.

That was crash test epiphany. Not fun. Not easy on the brain.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

You’re 100% right I have know right to slander anyone including the guru. I was devastated in 2018 at Dera. Nothing will ever affect me like that again because I have my guard up. Worst case scenario I get hurt enough that I decide it’s best for me not to watch the Q&As. End of story.

I’ve actually said a lot of good things and objective things about the guru as well. But slander is wrong in any book. I guess it just boils down to my karmic relationship with him but I’m not going to say anything negative anymore because quite frankly it’s hurting me more than anyone else.

[Sonia]

I sit in meditation because it’s literally the ONLY thing that takes away my craving for alcohol. It increases the autoimmune symptoms but that’s just because alcohol inhibits the immune system which ironically diminishes the symptoms you get from an autoimmune disease. I guess because it works as sort of an immunosuppressant but at the expense of the rest of your physical and mental health. So, I reckon it’s better to save my soul/mind than to save my body. 🙂

I am a sensitive person, therefore better to avoid any triggers. I’m best if I just do meditation and avoid satsang and Q&A and Dera and anything else that might upset me to where I don’t want to do my meditation.

Like they say, meditation first.

[Sonia]

@manjit

I agree with what you wrote. It is what all metaphysical traditions teach:

“You see, dear beloveds, if you can change your inner reaction to "karmas" and life's events......then you obviously also change your outer reaction to those events, which by cause and effect extension, will change your future life circumstances.”

It really confuses me (it blows my mind actually) that people can separate thought from action or effect. It just simply isn’t possible imo. “Thoughts are things.” Thoughts are the building blocks for all actions.

[Dungeness]

@ So, to hear Gurinder tactlessly, judgmentally (Kal, anyone?) and patently
@ unskillfully & unhelpfully call suicide a "sin".....when only two videos back he
@ was saying our mode and time of death is predestined and unviolable -
@ more unacknowledged confusion and contradiction, you'll note - is pretty
@ darn unpleasant

Hm, judgments are breaking out all over town ;) What mystic
would condone suicide as just a matter of kismet. No matter
what's foregone, they still strive to play along encouraging
hope and making every effort to prevent death including
suicide. It's a human thing.

So that means discouraging suicide since we customarily
accept the notion we make choices and therefore are
appropriately accountable for outcomes. Should a mystic
substitute a less freighted word than "sin"? Probably.

But if he'd said "Bad" or a "regrettable loss of a precious
human life", would it have satisfied critics? Probably not.
They'd cite the suffering of the terminally ill, or, mention
the sensibility of cultures whose elders drown themselves
when they can't pull their weight, or tediously parse the
nuances of "Bad", "Sin", "regrettable".

To counsel it's all predestined and nothing really matters
would garner brickbats... or a nuthouse referral. Even that's
written in ink somewhere. Next time, the message will be
more hopeful. See, it works out in the end. How could it
not?

[Jesse]

Covid is a hoax, and this sort of thing https://twitter.com/dan9700/status/1278761028386541570 happens literally every day in America multiple times yet you'll never read about it anywhere.

You are in a cult. Just like Constantine forced everyone to be Christian essentially,
so too are you all being forced to believe in these insane things that have no basis in reality. Things like "white supremacy" and "racism" and "the patriarchy." Did it not occur to you that when your views almost 100% align with everything every single multinational corporation spews that maybe you weren't thinking for yourself?

Watch it once again. This is your future, because you're stupid- https://twitter.com/dan9700/status/1278761028386541570

[Jesse]

Manjit, didn't read your whole comment, but your weird screed about borders and shit should be directed at Brian. He once said it was the only thing he agreed with Trump about.

I'm not sure why people like war. Open borders means more violence. Literally always.

[Sonia]

@Manjit

Thanks so much for your comments. :)

[Dungeness]

@ His view is actually a confused nihilistic one, but one that adds in the
@ incoherent "spiritual" aspect of meditation being able to change your
@ "inner reaction or state" without having any effect whatsoever on your
@ material circumstances......as if you could attain inner peace, happiness
@ and love, yet beat someone to death for looking at you strange......that
@ was just karma, after all!

Weirdly, that's the nature of karma. The reverse happens too.
Violence can suddenly, stunningly transform into peaceableness.
Adultery into faithfulness. Greed into charity. But what transfixes
us is devolution: ordinary people on a plane who beat an unruly
passenger, off his meds, to death. Rings of priests engaged in
wholesale pedophilia. A nation that inexplicably sanctions and
joins in mass murder.

We want a different narrative. A spirituality without devolution.
Without a nasty system of karma. One that rescues good people
from this vipers' pit and empowers them through righteous action
and living to mold "this sorry scheme" to something that comports
with our vision.

Unfortunately, the only way out of karma is in. You don't dissolve it
with more action but through awareness. The karma is unchanged.
You rise above it. And that's when eyes glaze over and you object
"Yeah, yeah awareness huh. What about that deacon who killed
his wife and kids. Hey, reminds me, didya hear about that swami
who was doin' the dirty with underage chicks. Don't tell me his
karma made him do it. Can he levitate himself outta jail!"

[Sonia]

But hey believe what you must. If it makes you feel better about yourself, I won’t interfere. I get the feeling you’re more about telling yourself warm fuzzy stories and believing, rather than wanting the truth warts and all. Big difference. No kissy kissy kum ba yah group hugs for me. If it helps you, good, but I don’t think it does. Just my opinion.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 01, 2020 at 11:14 PM

You’re greatly mistaken. I make tremendous concessions every day to maintain my longtime friendships and family relationships. You have no idea. And I don’t begrudge having to do so because I know that almost every person, despite any undesirable traits they may have, is a good person at heart. Like with my husband. He takes such good care of my parents. He suffers severe PTSD and all of the things that come with that I’m willing to make adjustments and concessions for. If you want a strong and lasting, meaningful relationship with anyone you have to accept them fully. Encourage the good and work around the bad with a positive outlook—allow that person to change in their own time. Believe in others and be patient.

[Vinny]

If global warming reaches a level where temp is 60 degree C , it can wipe out most of mankind. Some cunning person will give the argument of air conditioner, but at that temperature it can make electrical equipment dysfunctional.

[concerned 😧]

“Earlier this year, Indonesia announced its plans to move the capital city away from Jakarta. Home to over ten million people, some parts of Jakarta are sinking as much as 25cm per year. Jakarta’s precarious position is thanks to a combination of two factors – rising global sea levels and land subsidence as underground water supplies have been drained away to meet water needs.

This grim picture is repeated elsewhere too. In the Pacific, at least eight islands were swallowed by the sea in the last century, with Tuvalu, Kiribati and the Marshall Islands feared to be the next low-lying nations to be wiped off the map.“

[2050]

Scientists estimate dozens of species of plants and animals currently go extinct each day —nearly 1,000 times the natural rate. By mid-century, as many as 30 to 50 percent of the total species found on Earth will have disappeared.

[Sonia]

Well, my mushrooms are running late. Amazon apologized but couldn’t give any specifics other than it should be here tomorrow. Hopefully.

Genius Mushroom – Lions Mane, Cordyceps and Reishi – Immune System Booster & Nootropic Brain Supplement – Wellness Formula for Natural Energy, Stress Relief, Memory & Liver Support, 90 Veggie Pills

The thing is, I take plenty-o-allopathic prescriptions daily and it helps to try to boost your immune system with alternative meds. (Pharmaca is my second favorite store).

We had a vegan co-op in Knoxville, TN that was better than any co-op in Boulder or anywhere else I’ve lived. And they were cheap! It was so earthy and heavenly natural smelling. Ahh... not everything was better in the good ol’ days but somethings definitely were.

Our co-op here has been around since 1972 and is more expensive than Whole Foods. How are people supposed to stay healthy??

I’m curious if any of you in other countries have better access to affordable healthy, non GMO, pesticide free fresh foods and herbs and supplements. ??

[Jen]

Its a strange world. I watched a lot of youtube videos of the Black Lives Matter protests and at the same time thinking why now? Certainly no social distancing happening.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/13/us/george-floyd-protests-cities-photos.html

The demonstrators — black, brown, white, a mix of fed-up first-timers and veterans who had marched many times on those same streets — could not be stopped.

Not the risk of contracting Covid-19, not the tweets from a president who threatened military might, not a tornado in Florida or a tropical storm in North Carolina.

[Sonia]

Georgy, I hope you watch 011. There are a lot of important lessons in there for you.

[Sonia]

Not the risk of contracting Covid-19, not the tweets from a president who threatened military might, not a tornado in Florida or a tropical storm in North Carolina.
Posted by: Jen | July 03, 2020 at 08:51 PM

Yes, it’s truly mind boggling. Is it really that difficult for people to practice social distancing, wear masks and wash their hands? People act so put out by it but look at America’s COVID stats!

There was a movie out in 2006 starring Luke Wilson called ‘Idocracy’. Here’s the trailer: https://youtu.be/clYwX8Z43zg

Some days after reading the news it feels like we’re living in 2505.

[S]

“Life is a series of workarounds.”
—Life

“Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter.”
—Yoda

[Other Jen]

Georgy, I hope you watch 011. There are a lot of important lessons in there for you.

Posted by: Sonia | July 03, 2020 at 10:39 PM

Can’t keep away can you?

[S]

I’m objective and I’ll give credit where credit is due. GSD said something utterly brilliant in 011 which opened the door to a new world for me. He said if everyone got what they wanted the world would be chaos.

That may sound like a simple statement but it’s actually quite profound and I’ve never heard it put like that before. Here in America and so many first world countries where Capitalism reigns supreme, there has long been the ideal that the power of intention will get you whatever you want. We shy away from Stoic philosophy and refuse to appreciate the power and true gift of peace, calm and gratitude that acceptance brings.

There was something so reassuring and enlightening about that statement. Especially since he said it without any sort of judgement. (It’s always easier to digest a new concept when it’s said objectively.)

[S]

Can’t keep away can you?

Posted by: Other Jen | July 04, 2020 at 09:06 AM

Haha... are you just now figuring that out? I’ve never been a fake person. If I don’t agree with something I’ll say so... and I’m fine with admitting I’m wrong too. I’m not a follower or friend to anyone just because of what they may be able to do for me. I care about the truth. But I’m beginning to believe the best analogy for truth in this world is a treasure map. The treasure is there but you have to do a lot of digging to get to it. Sure, some find it easier than others. But it’s not a race, is it?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen!
In all those BLM pictures they wore masks.

In contrast, at the white Republican racist gatherings they don't wear masks. They have no understanding of basic hygiene during a pandemic nor basic citizenship.

https://youtu.be/_CcBeQAq2DI

[Michael]

Manjit
I enjoyed reading your juridical karma article. I agree that it is your best writing.
It struck a chord, the notion of rebirth as a common occurrence.
I have spent a lot of time believing in God, then changing my mind.
When I imagine the size of the Universe, with its vast array of stars, galaxies, black holes and other wonders, to limit life to this one singular planet seems absurd.
It makes me question why did God bother to create the rest of the Universe?
Add to this, the different religions around the world, each with their own saviour, specific only to the believers of that particular God.

Recently, I’ve been listening to Sylosis. Conclusion of an Age and Edge of the Earth albums. To me the songs are about a Godless life and Godless death.
A Godless life, a Godless death. Maybes a rebirth into another human body. How cool is that.

[Jen]

Hi Spence, yes I did notice that most of them were wearing masks. So much turmoil in the world today.

Every morning and afternoon I go for a walk near the ocean and a river nearby. I think its keeping me alive and well. I'm not very good at meditating but I do believe and feel the healing power of nature.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-forests-and-rivers-are-the-most-potent-health-tonic-around

"Colorado River guides know that nature enhances our physical and mental lives. ‘For decades, I’ve believed that I’m part of nature,’ Winn says, ‘not separate from it or “above” it. Many years ago, I studied Zen Buddhism and learned to meditate. Eventually I found that just hanging out on desert rivers had the same effect as meditation – no stress’."

[Spence Tepper]

Hi
Beautifully stated
"Eventually I found that just hanging out on desert rivers had the same effect as meditation – no stress’."

When you are in the center, nothing in heaven or earth is a greater treasure.

[The other jen]

Sonia you flip flop a lot that’s what confuses me. But your right it’s not a race, just in the process don’t hurt others and speak ill of anyone that’s all u recommend. Happy treasure hunting 😊

[Sonia]

Sonia you flip flop a lot that’s what confuses me. But your right it’s not a race, just in the process don’t hurt others and speak ill of anyone that’s all u recommend. Happy treasure hunting 😊

Posted by: The other jen | July 05, 2020 at 09:59 AM

The battle between my mind and my heart... I’m pretty much done flopping, though. It’s taken two years to work through some very serious issues. Not sure why we don’t learn things quicker. It seems no matter how hard we try there seems to be a certain order of events that have to play out in time.

[Jen]

One of the most difficult things to adjust to is that when we move away from Sant Mat and have stopped believing in the guru we start to realise that we are now functioning on our own accord. This is when the ego will try to be more powerful because we are taking back our own personal power and at the same time we are trying to be humble and gracious and this will create confusion. I'm an old gal now and a Dylan Thomas poem comes to my mind...

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Though wise men at their end know dark is right
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good light...

https://poets.org/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night

[Jen]

Strange and interesting typo, should be good night... not good light !!

[Sonia]

Ahh... my link was bad. I posted a while back showing Marshall. Here he is trying to play with the baby Robin. This was just before the bird was strong enough to fly away.
https://twitter.com/marshal03068516/status/1279942838965481472?s=21

[Dungeness]

@ Because their words had forked no lightning they
@ Do not go gentle into that good light...

@@ "Strange and interesting typo, should be good night... not good light !!"

Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good light...

Listen not to promises from within that
no shadows remain, to whispers all
will be well. Rage at a light that turns
to night.

Do not go gentle into that good night.
Hold fast to the eternal light.

[Georgy Porgy]

I hate to break it to you but Marshall is going to chomp that bird as an appetizer before you can even say wtf.

[Sonia]

I hate to break it to you but Marshall is going to chomp that bird as an appetizer before you can even say wtf.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 06, 2020 at 12:22 AM

Ha!

See, that’s what some people think. I never would have let him near the bird if I thought he might harm him. Marshall is the one who found the bird when we were out walking really late one night. He was sooo excited when I decided to bring it home. He was prancing around like he’d gotten a new toy.

Marshall was given to us by a woman who owned a farm and had chickens. He kept killing her chickens so the lady was going put him down. (I’m not so sure she was all that nice to him, though.) Anyway, she’s the one that named him after the Marshall on Gunsmoke. So, I have been wanting to get another Rottweiler girl pup and name her Kitty.

Marshall killed a few critters in our back yard a week or two after he first arrived with us. I was like “Noooo” (in a very scary & convincing way) and it never happened again.

After he calmed down enough for us to move him inside the house he transformed into the most gentle creature ever. He literally reads minds. I’m not even joking. It’s weird. I never have to “train him” he pretty much just listens to me talking (sometimes we have to spell words out because he learns the meanings pretty quickly 😆). He also reads facial expressions and body language. A lot of my pets have been like that. Except for a one cat who plays dumb or actually is. It’s hard to tell sometimes. I worry about him...

Marshall loves and adores, babies and children and little dogs and little furry critters. Never met a dog like him—not even close.

He’s different. He really is. 🤩

I guess the bottom line is he knows better (he knows I would have freaked out). But he just really wants a little friend, which is why we need to get a Rottweiler girl puppy.

I’m kinda nuts about him (in case you can’t tell).

[Tim Rimmer]

Bloomin ‘eck Manjit, just looked at the link to your RSS posts. Such Rapscalliousnous :) I enjoyed the read and recommend it to any of the readers here (if they haven't checked it out), as another thought provoking, cogent and interesting post - ‘Souls’ and ‘karma’ - two of my favourite topics, with interpretations completely assumed as correct by unquestioning followers, particularly the Sant Mat variety.
I’ve cut and pasted a few of Manjit’s points/views (M) with some response comment from me:
M - “The mechanics of karma, in Radhasoami dogma, are described in the juridical and retributive sense”.
Me - so it seems. While I no longer believe myself to be ‘driven’ by karma I remember how as a ‘conforming’ RSSB person initially I never really questioned why the teachings were presented (and it looks like they still are) in this way. At the time I thought the Sant Mat path was the royal road and ‘highest’ of all paths. Why question the teachings? The other initially unquestioned belief and a view that most of us were brought up to believe is that we ‘have’ a soul. These days I’m more inclined to consider soul as what we actually are i.e. we ‘are’ soul, we don’t have one.
Waking up involves realising this more imo.
M - “I’ve been paying attention to this religion [RSSB] and it's followers for 3 decades now, and I have never even heard or seen so much as a whiff of supporting "evidence" from the inner experiences of any initiate. I mean I've heard of alleged experiences of a few "previous lives" (which, by the way, almost always examples of resonant karma, continuation of traits and interests, but containing no evidence of juridical karma which is how karma is actually defined in RS and Indian/Buddhist metaphysics generally….”
Me - Interesting point especially in regard to how internal experiences in the RSSB tradition (from my memory of the teachings) have definitely little to say about how karma operates. I guess such revelations are reserved for those who actually go beyond the mind in a way where they can see all their so-called former mental self creations. This to me would be pretty much an awakened state. Free from the ‘karma affected’ contracted self.
Which brings me back to my view that karma is something that affects mind/body not the so-called ‘soul’. Soul is more about expansion of consciousness not the karma drama dharma that affects these isolated ‘selves’.
With regard to karma and ‘reincarnation’ here are a couple of interesting viewpoints. The first is from Eckhart Tolle at around 5 mins in he says:
‘You can observe reincarnation in yourself many times during the day when you identify with a thought …’
https://youtu.be/FVu6yU2plAo

This other clip although firmly in the Advaitic/vedic camp, introduces a new term I’d never heard of before. I believe it supports my view that the soul (which I consider to be ‘atma’) is not the thing that ‘travels’ (from body to body). What travels is the ‘Sukshma Sharira’ - subtle body. I like how the Swami describes this:
https://youtu.be/Zb1mLzRL3wc

M - “Some scientists speculate that from the moment of conception to becoming a human fetus, the human being goes through the entire evolutionary process from single cell organism to human being via all our past ancestors. This suggests we all contain within us some neuro-biological traces - and by speculative implication trace "memories" - of all these other "incarnations" that life has gone through to evolve to us, and if not directly "through", then related via genetic potentiality.”
Me - another really interesting perspective: 9 months - single cell to baby human - very much like an evolutionary process. Which scientists are suggesting this Manjit?

Best wishes to all

[anami]

"Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," biogenetic law of yesteryear...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recapitulation_theory

[manjit]

Hi Dungeness! You write: "Should a mystic substitute a less freighted word than "sin"? Probably.
But if he'd said "Bad" or a "regrettable loss of a precious human life", would it have satisfied critics? Probably not."

As somebody who presumably has quite a long and involved relationship/investment with RSSB and their gurus, your various defences of them are totally understandable! I am not sure to what extent anything I write is aimed at people like yourself rather than people less invested, still able to apply relatively independent, critical thought, and are looking into the subject of RS, RSSB, Gurinder etc....ie "seekers", like I myself once was (the Radhasoamistudies forum back in the late 90s early 2000s was a very valuable resource to me for years before I ever posted) ?

I feel you are at somewhat of a disadvantage in this discussion because you feel you must defend RSSB and Gugu from any and all criticism, regardless of the reality.....so you are so very limited in the potential scope of your argument. Still, if life gives you lemons you make lemonade hey! :) On a personal level, I actually really like Gurinder, the human behind the Wizard's veil. I think, when it comes to his sangat, he tries his best with the hand he's been dealt with.....but that he has less tools and resources at his command than his sangat believe. The point is, yes there are far, far more compassionate, tactful, skillful and helpful ways of discussing the subject......I have heard multiple talks given on the subject over the years, most of which although not given by "Perfect Living Masters" were full of grace, compassion, wisdom, insight etc, and entirely absent of judgement in a space where no more judgement is needed for goodness sake! So, as I have no dog in the fight, I am able to state the obvious about Gurinder's unprompted comments on the subject; they lacked compassion, wisdom, tact, grace or insight. Of course, whatever he says and however he says it can and will easily be rationalised into a far more charitable light, given some mental gymnastics.....speaking of which.....:)

You write: "Unfortunately, the only way out of karma is in. You don't dissolve it with more action but through awareness. The karma is unchanged. You rise above it."

Sorry Dungeness, but I see this as a hyper-example of what I stated previously......an attempt to defend the transparently incoherent and meaningless - and this would be absolutely obvious to any impartial observer - and by doing so you unwittingly promote a doctrine of nihilism under the guise of spirituality.......all because your guru and his clumsy, unexamined and unchallenged dogma and doctrine has forced you into this absurd position! If only he didn't keep giving you lemons, you may have been able to fashion a drink that wasn't so hard and bitter to swallow :)

I really don't actually know how to make my original point any clearer - it should be beyond obvious, if your a priori beliefs or desire to defend Gugu doesn't blind you to it; your inner state naturally and obviously effects your behaviour. Very simple and inarguable fact. And your behaviour will naturally and obviously change your future life circumstances. Very simple and inarguable fact. Yet, because Gurinder - whom clearly nobody close to him has ever dared to challenge, even when he makes obviously incoherent and meaningless claims like this about something as fundamental and presumably inviolable as the mechanics of "karma" - has stated something so obviously absurd as "your entire life circumstances are fixed and inviolable, including your method of death", but that "meditation helps you to deal with these karmas on the inside", we must wrap ourselves up in the most painful & contorted of conceptual poses with Olympian feats of mental gymnastics!

Even a child knows, one's "inner state" is immediately reflected in our actions. I truly, truly find it a deep shame that due to Gurinder's unexamined and poorly thought out dogmatic nihilistic philosophy, that satsangis will never know the joy of totally transforming a situation by the CHOICES they make in any given situation. It is a magical event to behold, a super-power to possess; in a tense, violent situation, in the face of a perceived aggression....to robotically react with conditioned anger, aggression, fear, leading to violence........OR in that moment to choose to react differently (you need extreme clarity to become aware of the complexity of your situation, go through the available choices of action to take, and pick the appropriate one to disrupt the flow of "energy" in a situation, all within a split second, to be fair :)......make a joke, laugh, smile, pay a compliment to someone......and to tangibly sense the energy in a room change to lightness, laughter, love......these are miracles apparently not open to RSSB satsangis. They absolutely are destined to react with anger, and be murdered....still, at least on the inside they were feeling love and compassion even if they reacted with petty rage, ey? :/

Ironically, in a sense Gurinder is right, but in Gurdjieff sense....when it comes to most human beings and most RS satsangis; they ARE mindless, hypnotised robots, blindly and unquestioningly following their programming and indoctrination. I have said several times over the years, 90%+ of RS followers I have seen online, many of whom for decades, you can predict absolutely everything they will write, do and think, especially in response to any given stimulus/post. More predictable than a Swiss timepiece. I could get somebody to write a piece of AI software that could easily imitate most of these pro RS posters comments and I'm sure most people wouldn't even notice, so mechanical and in "narrow lanes" they move........there are posters over on the RSS forum that have been posting and reposting the same 2 posts for more than 20 years, and each time they do it they think it's original!! So, yes, perhaps for RS satsangis Gurinder is right......it's all so very predictable and mechanical.......joyless, lifeless, lacking humour, spontaneity etc....."hey you, don't get spontaneous with us, we'll punch you in the face and break your glasses, we're senior sevadars don't you know". Yes, mindless robots following their programming.

Hi Jesse! You wrote :"Covid is a hoax"

Oh dear. Whilst I understand your Master Sant Trump Ji has insinuated this absurd claim, you really should try and broaden your circle of information from the delusional misinformation, highly selective and non-representational "news" and outright lies your Guru and his handlers are drip, drip feeding gullible and naive folks like yourself. Like most of Trump's bizarre lies and delusions, they are easily disproven by extending one's reality from outside of forums populated exclusively by humourless, joyless, angry testosterone fuelled, sexually frustrated, racist men which go into absolute meltdown every time a black lesbian is spotted in a TV show or movie ("I give this terrrible movie 0/10, it is PC gone mad, makes no sense, terrible acting, it's pure rubbish. I mean I haven't seen this movie, but it contains a woman as a lead so....."), and which think humourless memes are actually news articles. My cousin in Canada (2nd in her class at John Hopkins) is dealing with this crises at a senior level - I am no further than 2 links away from personally knowing around a dozen people that have died or nearly died from COVID-19....indeed everyone I know who has a large circle of friends and families knows multiple people who have been seriously affected by this virus. Your claim it is a "hoax" is as delusional, obviously false, dangerous, head stuck up your own ass etc as your own Guru's comments are. You make a wonderful disciple, well done!! :) :) Idiocracy-Yuga is upon us!

Hi Michael - thanks for your thoughtful response! You write: "I have spent a lot of time believing in God, then changing my mind."

Haha...that seems eminently sane & intelligent to me. I know I'm not dealing with a robot when I hear that :)

You write: "When I imagine....It makes me question why did God bother to create the rest of the Universe?
.....A Godless life, a Godless death. Maybes a rebirth into another human body. How cool is that."

Good questions. I consider religions and some metaphysical belief systems like RS to be obviously extremely anthropocentric, but in the sense humans are but a very small slither of creation and reality whereas these beliefs place us at the center of it all. I've just read earlier today, and I've mentioned it before too, that we "human beings" too are made up of billions of individual biological cells - indeed, we are apparently just colonies of bacteria!! (I really, really love reading this kind of science without all the scientism overlay....pure science, to me, reveals just how truly magnificent, magical and mysterious creation and life really is!). When all these bacteria come together, a new gestalt called the "human soul" or "me" arises....and goes about proceeding to place itself as the centre of the universe, believing itself to be an individual "soul" somehow disconnected to all the "other souls" out there. A wonderful fantasy, but only of it's time and place, the very limited human condition!

The other day a profound thought occurred to me which may or may not be original (it felt original!); the difference between a seeker and a realiser is this - the seeker seeks the meaning to the question of life and creation. The realiser sees life and creation as the ANSWER. In other words, only the human ego, planted in duality and cut off from its root, seeks an answer to life and creation, but in actuality life and creation is itself it's own meaning and purpose. It is the Divine in motion, so to speak, but it is a Dance one can only behold if one can transcend the limited and limiting human ego.....and in that Dance, ALL creation is held dearly, even the lowliest amoeba is the fullest expression of that divinity....not just initiates of the correct be-turbaned Sant from the Punjab.

I've never heard of Sylosis, I'll check them out, thanks :) I'm not sure I've alienated enough people recently, so to aid myself in that regards, this is the kind of outer music I love: https://youtu.be/HbdYyBeof6M Now this is what you can call celestial strains penetrating the physical :)

Hey Tim - thanks for your comments dear fellow! In regards your question "Which scientists are suggesting this Manjit?". The current field this is being research in is "evolutionary developmental biology" or "evo-devo" for short. I found this article that goes through the history of the science: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12052-012-0418-x Anami mentions above the historical roots of this, stated as the so called "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny", but that science was debunked a long while ago (something like the guy, Haeckel, made up hand drawn cartoons to support his point or some such!). But as the new field of "evo-devo" is showing us, there is quite a lot of truth still contained therein. As this quote from the Berkeley.edu website on evolution states "Embryos do reflect the course of evolution, but that course is far more intricate and quirky than Haeckel claimed." https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/history_15

Re. sukshma sharira, you should have heard of this in RS - it's corresponds, more or less, to the western/theosophical concept of "astral body", or the body which views the thousand lights of Niranjan in RS?! Don't let's get into a discussion of the cross correspondences of the different "chakras", "bodies" and "regions" as has evolved through time to get us to the Theosophical-RS hybrid cosmology we have now!! :) This is a good entry point into the subject if one is interested, though: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rainbow-Body-History-Western-Blavatsky/dp/0892542195 Safe to say, all these cosmologies and doctrines - much like that of karma and transmigration - clearly evolve and change through time. And then we have people on forums like this defend the particular version of neo-cosmology they have been taught, like RS, as if it is actually a superior and unique divine revelation and insight that magically appeared in a conceptual vacuum thousands of years ago and has remained with us perennially unchanged :)

Thanks for the video links, I'll check them out :) Just yesterday the following NDE video appeared in my youtube recommended list...I hadn't watched an NDE video for a while, but out of curiosity clicked the link....it is a very enjoyable 23 minutes and well worth listening to the obviously sincere recollection of an NDE experiencer: https://youtu.be/R8o2rcWldWk

We all know the Indo-Buddhic doctrines of karma, bondage and transmigration as they have evolved and passed down to us through religions like RS (although there have been significant deviations from this life-denying and narrow doctrine even in India, such as Kashmiri Shaivism, which took great delight in the sheer ecstasy of embodied reality, and which it cannot be emphasised enough is the school of practices from which shabd yoga as we know it today evolved). The belief in karma has become so ingrained I believe people are unable to think outside or beyond this concept, so unquestioned it's acceptance that every action or event is somewhat meaninglessly framed in these terms, "it's karma", which really means nothing at all.

But the question is, just what evidence do we have to support it BEYOND the empty and hollow words of Indo-Buddhic mystics during their lesser moments - their peak moments were always marked by denial of karma, transmigration etc, like when Kabir said:

"Pandit, you've got it wrong.
There's no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you're guru, I'm disciple."
Bijak, shabda 43

PS - there's not even "word" (naam), no "radiant form", no "guru" or "cause and effect" "there", according to Kabir. And it is "pandits" or SCHOLARS who claim there is - they are those who make claims about "two", not "one". Please pay attention dear satsangis :) PPS - Sonia, if you're reading this, you mention you're reading an RS book on Kabir and that he was "very mythic"? Honestly, reading a book on Kabir by RS is like reading a book on black history by Trump. RS has since it's inception claimed the bizarre book "Anurag Sagar" was written by Kabir, and it also has a significant place in the formulation of RS concepts as RS gurus would advise future RS gurus to read it! The problem is, Kabir didn't write Anurag Sagar, it was probably written centuries after his death, and anyone with a deep familiarity and understanding of Kabir's other, older writings would immediately recognise this. I recognised this myself, and have since heard the scholarly consensus is he didn't write it, and even "pro-RS" James Bean (whose research into the true origins of RS are absolutely fantastic and a must read, btw) agrees that it is highly unlikely Anurag Sagar was authored by Kabir. Further, Anurag Sagar is written by the equivalent of John the Elder - a deeply delusional, paranoid, fantasy filled, dark ages-type visionary, who mistook his paranoid fantasies and visions for reality, pretended he was Kabir and wrote Anurag Sagar! if you're reading an RS book on Kabir, no wonder you think he was "mythical"....it's based on a biography written by a demented fellow who didn't even know his own name :) The only writings on Kabir generally considered authentic, and which are infinitely more sane than anything in the Anurag Sagar - is the Bijak of Kabir or the entries in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. There is a totally different mystic in the Bijak compared to the one imagined by RS satsangis.

Anyway, point is this - despite there being little to no evidence at all that the dogma and doctrine of RS is true, there is a vast and ancient body of evidence continuing to this day that suggests a parallel but significantly different mechanic to reality. Ironically, over the years I have heard many RS believers absent mindedly reference all this research (NDEs, Stevenson's reincarnation research etc) without considering that almost 100% of such experiences whilst somewhat supportive or suggestive of things like a "Divine mystery", "reincarnation" etc, are actually wildly incompatible with RS dogma and doctrine - almost exclusively every single case of reincarnation Stevenson and his successors and other anthropological researchers into ancient societies, tribes etc found were from human to human incarnation, with only a few short years gap, and that there is far more volition and choice involved in the process than Indo-Buddhic doctrine suggests.

But I'm just repeating myself there - point was, NDEs also paint a radically incompatible picture of "life after death" and the "soul" than any life-denying pseudo-gnostic Indo-Buddhic doctrine ever has. I've literally seen or read hundreds of NDEs from across the globe and time periods. They show remarkable similarities both to each other, but also to some alleged "in-between incarnation" memories in child cases, and also to mediums, independent mystics or visionaries and psychedelic users etc, there is notable accord that surely requires an explanation from "sceptics".....but they also show remarkable differences from the RS narrative!

For instance, RS and Charan have stated death is a very painful, tortuous process, the analogy he used is that for most humans, shedding our physical body somewhat like pulling a cloth from a thornbush in that it will cause great pain and suffering.

Yet after hearing hundreds of NDE cases, almost without exception they describe the process of shedding the physical body and all it's attachments as incredibly easy and painless! Every single other thing they describe is also different from the joyless, escapist cosmology of certain indo-buddhic doctrines! There simply is no denying it, experiencer after experiencer describes the exact same thing, and it is a universe and God with far more meaning, love and forgiveness (immediate, not after a pseudo-eternity of karmas you never started and never had any control over at any point is magically "cleared" by the one True Guru in the entire multiverse, cunningly disguised as a very greedy boy) than the joyless universe and existence of those who follow narrow minded religions.......

And countless other avenues of "paranormal" or "mystical" experience all support these experiencers.

The only possible coherent defense of this situation - the huge body of evidence supporting the NDE, child reincarnation case, psychedelic user, spontaneous independent mystics etc which contradict the purpose of life, creation, God, the soul etc as presented by RS dogma and doctrine, and which has absolutely no evidence at all to suggest it is true - is to suggest all these things are tricks of kal, or lower region experiences etc.

In my mind, there is no qualitative difference between this rationalisation and the rationalisation of some Christians who say fossils were planted on the earth by Satan to trick people. It literally is the exact same ridiculously absurd religious belief, but in different words.

Right, that's surely enough rambling for July folks :)

Dear Jen - that is one of the most delightful Freudian slips I've ever read :)

Dear Sonia - thanks for sharing that video clip of the dog and bird......so beautiful, thanks! :)

Cheerio all!

[Georgy Porgy]

Goof god almighty how much of that stream of consciousness rambling BS do we have to read?

It’s pseudo science mixed with pseudo philosophy trying to be smart, but just plain rubbish.

[Dungeness]

@ has stated something so obviously absurd as "your entire life circumstances
@ are fixed and inviolable, including your method of death", but that
@ "meditation helps you to deal with these karmas on the inside", ...

Hi, yes. It's powerfully, compellingly clear that we make choices.
We must. Further we can hone our introspection to alter behavior.
Bring lightness and laughter rather than rage to a situation. We
can live healthily and improve our happiness. Choice, not nihilism.

But without real knowledge that hardens into a rigidity of its own.
You like chai and detest coffee. Did you make the choice or was
it foregone due to genetics and culture? You raised a belt to beat
a delinquent. What made you stop? What happened at that very
inflection? Were you making a choice or was it made in a timeless
moment somewhere, at a place you know not how to describe.
Was a sudden violence-averse reaction also choreographed in
another place, another time?

The problem is that for all our acuity and introspection, we don't
know why we make choices. We only guess about their genesis.
They seem to be marshalled serially one after another in lockstep.
You know... in "real" time. But with our limited, fractured attention
we can't begin to know. We perceive only what's external. We
only opine about the absurdity of karma and fixed circumstance.

That's alright, says the mystic, we can silently take credit for our
compassion or ruefully berate our own stupidity. That might well
be part of the scheme too. With improved awareness, we can
begin to peek inside and see what was actually set in motion.
The experience there inside ourselves, not outside, is key.

[Sonia]

Goof god almighty how much of that stream of consciousness rambling BS do we have to read?

It’s pseudo science mixed with pseudo philosophy trying to be smart, but just plain rubbish.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 07, 2020 at 12:39 PM

OK, Mr. Grumpy Pants, which part of manjit's comment did you disagree with? Can you name just one thing

I found it interesting and agree with a lot of it. Although, I think RS philosophy is evolving according to the times. I think GSD is extremely progressive as far as RS philosophy is concerned.

I love all the sciencey (pseudo/fringe--whatever, it's still fun and cutting edge) stuff. I think it's important to keep an open mind. Like, vegetarians. It's not so special and it's certainly not so benevolent just to be a vegetarian anymore. Consuming dairy in this day and age is basically morally reprehensible. But only a well educated person would understand that. So, it's important to stay educated and up to date and to keep an open mind.

At the same time (and this is where balance comes in) all the knowledge in the world can't take the place of a truly loving exchange. The other day (I swear I'm only using this example to illustrate my point) I was watching someone else's dog for them for a few hours. The poor animal has suffered extreme neglect and has a lot of health issues and emotional issues because of it. She has to always be touching a human. She gets hysterical if she's left alone in a room for a minute. It's sad to witness. However, I like to give here treats and give her treatments and medications to improve her health whenever I get chance to. So, the other day after treating her ears I gave her a bath. Honestly, I did it more for my self than her but as I was drying her off (and I have absolutely no idea the last time she had a bath--she was filthy) she looked up at me like "thank you so much". It was a strange moment. I realized that it meant a lot more to her than to me. The weird thing is that evening I was thinking about spiritual concepts and all of the sudden the image of her face with that look she had in her eyes just popped in front of me and at that moment it was like whatever-you-want-to-call-it-superconsciousness showed me that we really are connected. I could feel it. And then I felt loved for a brief moment more than I've ever felt loved before. It was like a split second NDE. lol

I think it's important to understand that all of creation matters. If we don't understand that then we are obviously ruled by our egos.

[Sonia]

Hi Manjit,

I enjoyed your comment. :)

You wrote:

"Pandit, you've got it wrong.
There's no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you're guru, I'm disciple."
Bijak, shabda 43

PS - there's not even "word" (naam), no "radiant form", no "guru" or "cause and effect" "there", according to Kabir. And it is "pandits" or SCHOLARS who claim there is - they are those who make claims about "two", not "one". Please pay attention dear satsangis :) PPS - Sonia, if you're reading this, you mention you're reading an RS book on Kabir and that he was "very mythic"? Honestly, reading a book on Kabir by RS is like reading a book on black history by Trump. RS has since it's inception claimed the bizarre book "Anurag Sagar" was written by Kabir, and it also has a significant place in the formulation of RS concepts as RS gurus would advise future RS gurus to read it! The problem is, Kabir didn't write Anurag Sagar, it was probably written centuries after his death, and anyone with a deep familiarity and understanding of Kabir's other, older writings would immediately recognise this.

I believe Bijak, shabda 43 was referring to Sach Khand so then it kinda makes sense.

As far as Kabir goes, I haven't read the RSSB books about Kabir yet. What I read was a free ebook online which was in fact 'Anurag Sagar'. 😂 I'm so glad you cleared up the confusion for me!!! I was like "how on earth can anyone take this seriously???" ಠ_ಠ

LOL! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sonia]

Manjit,

Again, I think this bit (pasted below) is referring to Sach Khand. Right? That's how I understand it.

"Pandit, you've got it wrong.
There's no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,
no sun, moon, earth or water,
no radiant form, no time there,
no word, no flesh, no faith,
no cause and effect, nor any thought
of the Veda. No Hari or Brahma,
no Shiva or Shakti, no pilgrimage
and no rituals. No mother, father
or guru there. Is it two or one?
Kabir says, if you understand now,
you're guru, I'm disciple."
Bijak, shabda 43

[Sonia]

My nieces and I watched the first season of 'The Politician' on Netflix last night (it's fun to indulge in binge watching during summer break). Lately it seems we've gone through dry spell of bindge worthy TV series. So, it was a nice find. Especially having both girls with us right now.

It's kind of a dark comedy with a moral story to it (at the end). It was really good. I highly recommend it. Tonight we're starting season 2.

The Politician trailer: https://youtu.be/6-kdBlzCG7w
Rotten Tomatoes review: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/the_politician/s01

[🌞 777 🌞]

@Manjit

It literally is the exact same ridiculously absurd religious belief, but in different words.

Until U really see IT / enjoy It's Extreme Sweet Beauty

777

You have a problem with the Creator Personally taking a lower form,
making some friends,
gives a heritage
there where S/HE LIKES ?

[🌼 777 🌼]

@Sonia WOW and excactly what Gurinder said to Osho

Pandit, you've got it wrong.
There's no creator or creation there,
no gross or fine, no wind or fire,

It's all YOU, . . . There never was another n . . . congrat!
Now enjoy That
777

And what are Swami Ji's "Wonders above wonders"
Those are these gorgeous collegas who got it too
and is so fascinating

[anami]

manjit,

A question. What is Sant Mat's position on Darwinism? Has it ever come up? RSSB or other branches?

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonia

sorry it’s impossible for me to believe BS.

Where do I even start? it’s like a Gdam ‘war and peace’ 1000-page novel of BS and scatter-brained thoughts.

He seems to be creating an argument that RS considers death to be ‘tortuous’, but where is his evidence for this for a start? And then rambles on about NDEs and child reincarnation. What’s the point?

I personally don’t have a problem if he considers rssb, or its beliefs, untrue if he is an out-an-out atheist who only believes that which is objectively provable is true. But he’s not doing that. He’s giving he’s own subjective ‘fairy tale’ beliefs in demons, hob-goblins, NDEs, child reincarnation which don’t have an iota of objective proof for them either.

So purely on rational grounds, if that is what he is progressing to be, it’s complete rubbish - all of it.

But there is another problem, which is that he is creating straw-man arguments. He’s telling us what rssb or the guru believes without providing any proof of this. I suspect it’s not at all what the rssb/guru believes but what manjit thinks rssb/guru believes.

And since manjit believes in demons and other fairy tales - 🧚‍♂️- do me a favour and call it for what it is. Manjit said he doesn’t mind, so it’s all good.

[Georgy Porgy]

“ The weird thing is that evening I was thinking about spiritual concepts and all of the sudden the image of her face with that look she had in her eyes just popped in front of me and at that moment it was like whatever-you-want-to-call-it-superconsciousness showed me that we really are connected. I could feel it. And then I felt loved for a brief moment more than I've ever felt loved before. It was like a split second NDE. lol”

Yeah but how many boozers had you already chugged down that night? Sounds like you were completely bombed. I’m no expert but this may be why rssb wants you off the sauce.

[Sonia]

Yeah but how many boozers had you already chugged down that night? Sounds like you were completely bombed. I’m no expert but this may be why rssb wants you off the sauce.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | July 08, 2020 at 09:47 AM

No, Georgy. I wasn’t bombed. I quit drinking. Thank you.

Also, I know you haven’t read any of the RSSB books but a lot of what people refer to on this site are straight from the books and recorded satsangs (like the experience that death is painful).

Traditionally RS Sant Mat has taught that there are ghosts and demons as well as good deities. Both Great Master and Charan Singh had things to say about ghosts and demons being real and they very much believed in ghosts and demons. (Charan was Gurinder’s Master.)

Gurinder has taken a different approach.

So, although you may resonate more with GSD’s teachings (so do I), you should know that what many commenters are making references to in these comments have to do with what was taught by previous Masters.

Have you read any of the RSSB books? You have to read at least 3. 😉 Although, I think they’ve made it super easy by dumbing it down and including the quick read Sant Mat 101 ebooks on the RSSB site.

GSD’s Sant Mat 2.0 is very different from the Sant Mat of previous Masters. He kept the essentials and pretty much threw everything else out the window. But it seems like half the Sangat today are still initiates of Charan Singh (I don’t know what the real figures are but you always find older people in Western countries’ sangats) so there’s a lot of confusion now and then.

Have you ever attended a local satsang center?

[Sonia]

Georgy, you may not agree with the previous Master’s teachings but if you are in fact interested in Sant Mat, you should get familiar with their teachings since they laid the foundation for RSSB. Plus, they were GSD’s Master/s.

Society and cultures change with the times, and a lot gets lost in translation. I totally get that. But since RSSB’s publications department still keeps cranking out new books regularly it would be helpful for you to have a basic understanding of RSSB’s history.

[🌼 777 🌼]

manjit, A question. What is Sant Mat's position on Darwinism? Has it ever come up? RSSB or other branches?
Posted by: anami | July 08, 2020 at 08:50 AM

Spiritual Letters
Jaimal wrote to Sawan : "The last time I was here , thes mountains were not here" < The Himalayas

So that's almost a Billion Years earlier

777

[Sonia]

GP—

And a lot of RS books talk about past lives. They teach that after you reach a certain level you have access to information about ALL of your past lives.

I’m just repeating what they say so that you get a better understanding of why Satsangis are, for the most part, so weird.

A lot of them believe in aliens. 👽 Even though the books don’t touch on that. But they cover pretty much every other weird and wonderful 🧚‍♀️ 👻 you can imagine. Have you checked out the RSSB library of books that you can order online? Path of the Masters was a big one that confused the hell out of most people. 😂

[Georgy Porgy]

I think the guru said don’t read the books and I agree with that - I rather get it straight from the horses mouth and do the meditation.

If I’m going to read books it will be about science of other man-made book knowledge.

Spirituality can not be taught or learned from a book. At best, there might be some songs or poetry that are the art forms that comes closest to describing the indescribable.

But the books I suspect are at best very poor metaphors written by satsangis who in many cases come from different cultures, in different eras, and who may have zero spiritual experiences or pedigree to draw from. In fact, the only thing in their favour might be that they write reasonably well about 2nd hand experiences and teachings imbibed from others.

No I’ve got no interests in the books in the slightest. I think want to try find a living master and try listen carefully to what he actually says, not what you think he says. But the key to it all must be the inner meditation.

[Um]

@Sonia
>> Both Great Master and Charan Singh had things to say about ghosts and demons being real and they very much believed in ghosts and demons. <<

I have never read or heared him say anything about ghosts and demons, this is the very first time.
To be sure i went through the indexes of 5 of his books but there was nothing to be found

[Sonia]

Honestly, Georgy. I’m not sure understand what you’re getting yourself into. You couldn’t have picked a more fairytale-hobgoblin-dungeons-and-dragons-middle-earth-to-all-the-astral-realms-and-beyond path to follow. It’s anything but hard science. You can’t even seriously use the word science when you’re talking about Sant Mat. It doesn’t even qualify as a pseudo science. It’s Narnia. It honestly doesn’t get any weirder. GSD has worked really hard to make it seem less weird and to give it an air of normalcy.

“Science of the Soul” is a misnomer. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it. It’s probably exactly what you need. But (and no offense) I’m just now getting the impression that you know virtually nothing about Sant Mat and RSSB.

You do realize Satsangis leave their bodies and astral travel through different worlds and realms seeing all the beings there when they meditate. You know that, right?

???

[anami]

"Spiritual Letters
Jaimal wrote to Sawan : "The last time I was here , thes mountains were not here" < The Himalayas

So that's almost a Billion Years earlier"

777,

Maybe only 50 million years? Even so, that points to the recognition of geological evolution. But what about biological? How old are humans in RS thinking? Did we evolve from apes? Can I go on believing in dinosaurs?

[Spence Tepper]

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-global-atmosphere.amp

Listen to the Earth sing.

[77]

Simran protects Satsangis
against all undesirable influences
trying to steal a piece of the cake

Here some "weirdness" - do U believe?.

In the lower astral regions exists a kind of
NASA University where defunded engineers
try to develop devices to make contact with
their attachments on earth
Many of the ufo phenomenae° are their 'technical' results

Even Those who hear the Shabd need to do Simran at all times

77

[Sonia]

@Um

Great Master had several bad spirits visit him and say they were going to spread disease to the area. Great Master said that they could do what they wanted but not to touch the Dera.

I have heard this story so many times that I’m not sure if it was in a book or how news of this was spread. I’ll ask my mother-in-law when I speak to her.

And then either Charan or Great Master or both used to say that ghosts were often the disembodied spirits of those who had left this earth but had desires keeping them here (usually negative desires) so they couldn’t even cross over to the astral or get reincarnated for a while. Again... let me just ask some older Satsangis (I don’t have any books anymore other than the RSSB set of “encyclopedias”—those blue bound books on the cosmology of the universe).

Gurinder says “burn the books” but he also endeavored to build the worlds largest metaphysical library. So, I’d say he values some education.

Some of those stories may have been in the books of the letters they wrote. Like Spiritual Gems and Letters to the Master. Those kinds of books.

I guess I’ll have to read all the books now just so I can quote exactly. 🙄

Fun stuff.

[Sonia]

Sant Mat teaches their are rulers of each reason (Simran) and that there is a hierarchy of beings within each realm under those rulers. It also teaches their are negative realms (temporary “hells” to reform souls) and beings their. We have some “evil” people on earth and outside this realm it’s no different simply because there are realms of reform... temporary hells.

Darn. I shouldn’t have thrown away all the books.

[Sonia]

And Georgy, I hear what you’re saying about getting everything from the horses mouth. But the thing is you don’t get the opportunity to do that. You may see GSD once or twice a year at most. If you get to go to Dera you can listen to him speak and perhaps you’ll get a visit from him in your country. But to my knowledge he’s not continuing the Q&As... not past the Quarantine and it looks like he’s cut it back down to one a week. But I’m not certain if they just got behind or if they’re only going to do the Indian Q&A each week going forward in Quarentine.

Regardless, rest of the time you’ll be visiting your local sangat for a satsang written by other Satsangis that are taken from the books.

So you see, you’re in a pickle. And meditation is much harder than you think. You’re likely not going to see him within for years or decades or never.

I’m not trying to discourage you but don’t have unrealistic expectations. If you do then you might wind up being one of those “ex-ers” who comment here.

[S]

I’m sure someone else on here remembers more details about this story, but was it Great Master that sat in meditation for so long that he missed his duty for a day when he was in the military. And when he went to his superior to apologize they said, what are you talking about you were here the whole time.

So, he knew his Master has done it for him.

(Similar to Spence’s story)

[S]

G-

It’s good that you don’t believe in hell because the only people who experience those types of places (and it’s always temporary) are the people who have made a habit of condemning others to hell.

Their experiences are intense and simply to show them that no one deserves to go to such a “place” (it’s an experience).

So, you’re actually right. Technically there isn’t any such thing as hell and I think that’s why the current Master discourages talk or belief in such things. A little ironic how that works—so all 5 Masters may have said different things but they were all correct given the context of their statements.

I honestly have no idea why I’m going on about this stuff. It was like one thing led to another. But also, I guess, I find Context and Understanding to be very fascinating subjects in and of themselves.

[S]

I guess the bottom line is (plain and simple) if you can imagine it, you can experience it. So don’t go around imagining things that you don’t personally want to experience.

That also includes things that you may desire but that ultimately lead to negative consequences.

OMG, do I sound like Spence. 😱

😉

[anami]

Sonia,

I remember a story like that. Did it involve entries in a ledger about something, maybe train arrivals and departures?

Wasn't there a story about Charan ridding rats at the Dera in his youth? He knew somehow that rats are superstitious, so he painted one blue and released it back. The other rats fled, thinking they saw a ghost!

[77]

Masters do a lot "Multi-positioning"
Gurinder too, but HE doesn't know . . . His Master does it
but when the disciple comes before Him physically
HE might remember

All metaphysical which is covered above, I commented in comments
so I don't need at 83 , google 4you in Brians little frame above:
F.I. 777+Piet Romein

[🌼 777 🌼]

@Anami

I guess U are right, . .
But these figures involving God s schemes are immensely & collossal

F i : Our Moon was placed into position by an earlier race
that ended their physical adventures >3 Billion years ago
also hided some 7 chakras DNA for future human forms

Alien activities in this tiny milky way since half a billion years
have some knowledge of this 7 chakra 'machine'
which is the exit , the passage towards the All Mighty Creator
Read Guru Granth, . . . that's The Truth, I mean the circumstances
and Tolkien

Lately The Chinese found the entrance of the moon at the back-side
Hence all the fake Mars Missions if not for Phobos ( also placed)
All Nations that can, want the moon_knowlege and technology

But as Admiral Byrd with a flottile og 40 ships failed at antarctica
the moon is protected in a simple way
against greed

77

I had a friend who had many books even so that he had to buy 2 extra houses to stock all them
He read them all
Once I said
but if you know all there is written, . . . how about a zillion of other planets with their knowledge?
Same with meditation - best is to do it to let your Love swell

[Um]

@ Sonia
>>I guess I’ll have to read all the books now just so I can quote exactly. <<

No need ... going through the index of Spiritual gems, there were indeed 2 references for "ghosts".

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Georgy
I read your comments and the word ‘contrary-ness’ comes to mind. I am also reminded of a colourful character in an old fairly outrageous UK TV series (you probably know it if you are a Brit), called ‘Balls of Steel’ - you’re a bit like ‘The Annoying Devil’ :)

When it comes to discussing Manjit’s BS, be good if you could be less generalised and say I believe Manjit is spouting bullshit because ….. and give some clear reasons based on your own experience to support your view.

It’s certainly true that sometimes his (M’s) comments are quite long, but I find there is quite a bit in there worth consideration. I often have to read things several times to get a better handle on what he says.

In regard to the recent posts I’ll further elaborate on my response to them. For example, Manjit’s bringing up the notion of juridical/retributive Karma. I never really looked at it this way before and when I stand back and think about what’s said (as I remember) in the RSSB teachings, I agree. It’s like a punitive set up and not too dissimilar from Christian notions of fallen souls, sin etc. All fine if you want to believe in that stuff. To me it just seems to promote dualistic dogma and helps to keep folk trapped in a belief system that ‘limits’ them. These days I prefer focusing not on karma ‘happening’ to a ‘separate tarnished soul’ but more linking soul to a much broader, life-affirming set up - expanded consciousness. This is a state that progresses to be less and less affected by ‘karma’ as we wake up.

In regard to Manjit’s points about evolution from cell to foetus and baby human, this I found really interesting. I’ll put it in a context of the late 80’s and early 90’s when I spent several years as a rebirthing/conscious breathing practitioner. Rebirthers are big on ‘cellular memory’. The process is in part about using the breathing technique to help release various trauma/false beliefs undergone/generated throughout one’s life especially in childhood and during one’s birth. I had this client who pretty much went right through her life ‘clearing and releasing’ lots of stored emotion/angst/intense experiences. What really amazed me was towards the end of her sessions she relived past time as a Christian, being mauled by lions in an arena in Ancient Rome. Very real to her and very real to me as we went through it. Cellular memory? Past lives? Genetic remnants?

I guess the point I’m making is to be in less of a hurry to pronounce this as BS. The only thing we can say is true for us is our own experience. Unless you have tried it and investigated it don’t knock it - find out for yourself. If you get the chance to stand up there and talk to GSD - ask him ‘what’s the deal with karma? Some people say the RSSB teachings present it in a very juridical almost retributive way…’ You might end up having an Osho moment and he’ll tell you that when it all comes down to it karma is actually bullshit as there is nobody really there for it to happen to.

I saw this the other day on the same site where the Sukshma Sharira is mentioned. It’s from the Mandukya Upanishad:
The world never really emerged
Nor will it undergo dissolution
There’s really no one who’s bound
No one seeking enlightenment
And no one who becomes enlightened.

All the best

PS - to 777 - if you believe in planetary evolution/geological time the Himalayas were formed 50my ago when India crashed into the Eurasian Plate - there are fossils up there of various older sea creatures - but as I understand much younger in age than 1BY