Excellent analysis of RSSB guru's absurd response to a question

lt's great that videos of Gurinder Singh Dhillon are being posted on You Tube by Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the religious organization that is led by Dhillon -- a guru who is considered to be God in Human Form by the RSSB teachings.

This allows people to critique what the guru says.

Sure, RSSB devotees, like true believers everywhere, typically consider that Dhillon can speak no wrong and do no wrong, which ignores the fact that he is enmeshed in a financial scandal involving hundreds of millions of dollars.

Below is a comment on a recent Church of the Churchless post by "j" that I like a lot. It starts with a reference to a previous comment. Satsangi means an initiate of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. I've corrected a few typos.

The question asked of the guru pertains to why someone would leave RSSB, as many have done. I'm one of them. Dhillon's response is typical of fundamentalist religions, which denigrates anyone who chooses to deconvert from the religion. 

This is strange, since religions have no problem with someone leaving a different religion to join that one. But when a person decides that they've found a better spiritual path than the religion they joined, suddenly leaving a religion becomes a horrendous moral failure.

Doesn't make sense. Which isn't surprising, since religions don't make sense. Here's the comment from "j." After it you can view the portion of a video referenced in the comment.

"It was one sentence."

With all due respect, it was not one sentence. Gurinder Singh goes on at length to explain that leaving RSSB for any reason is inexcusable, and is due to:

1) The mental weakness and moral cowardice of the satsangi.

2) A personal rejection of the satsangi by God, who "only takes those he wants to take."

3) The satsangi acting like a willful and rebellious child, for whom the Guru has created a "conducive atmosphere."

4) The satsangi was done in by the "weight of his karmic burden" (huh?)

5) The satsangi is taking "the easy way out." "Then he will have to bear the burden" (again, huh? Wasn't Gurinder just saying that it's a misconception to believe that a Guru can take anyone's karma or bear anyone's burden?)

6) The Guru cannot "study" for the satsangi. This is an ironic choice of words for Gurinder to use, for it's study of our experience of the path and the guru's bold claims that leads many satsangis to abandon RSSB.

7) It is an error for the apostate satsangi to "choose his own path." Gee, I thought that Gurinder taught that all spiritual paths can lead to salvation. Or so I've been told by fans of Gurinder.

8) "The Lord is going to give what he's going to give." Gurinder is supposed to be the Lord, so that's just doubletalk.

9) To the question of whether errant initiated satsangis "get another chance" to come back to the path: This question has been answered ad infinitum by previous gurus that the guru never leaves the initiate for all eternity and watches over him until he finally returns to God.

But here Gurinder hedges and stops to think about the question as if he's never heard it before.

He then goes on with a bit of philosophical gymnastics to argue that since the satsangi has issues with the Guru now (like, for questions of financial impropriety, false claims about possible meditation experiences, false claims about the salvific power of the shard, false claims about RS history, false claims about the guru's power, false claims about the "law" of karma, disaffection with the guru's triumphalist claims for himself, etc), it follows that he may never come back to the path in future lives.

I find it curious that Gurinder equates initiation and RSSB's theological claims of the Guru's power and the power of initiation with "atmosphere."

We're told before initiation that it and the guru have the actual power to hasten our spiritual development, but here this is downgraded to "atmosphere," which seems to portray the path as nothing more than theater. Gurinder also likens initiation to a meal (gurus dearly love analogies, though an analogy is never an explanation for anything).

I've studied guru controversies for over 30 years now, and I know this pattern all too well. Gurinder is simply using the same trick that every guru uses when questioned: He blames the person leaving the path for being a weak and spoiled child.

If I may be so bold: READ CLOSELY (or should I say listen closely, since Gurinder never writes anything down) when the guru speaks.

Is he really facing the questions put to him, or is he dodging them with rhetorical BS? As as ex member of a sant mat path, I've found that it's easy to still buy into the guru's arguments even after one leaves the path. But a close reading of the guru's words can show the evidence of his linguistic sleight of hand.

Never forget, everyone joins Sant Mat because they were SOLD on it through words. People join Sant Mat because of the argument Sant Mat makes. But that argument is a sales pitch, it's not a description of reality.

It's important to really look closely at a guru's words to see if what he says actually makes sense.

There are a lot of things that gurus say that seem like strong and reasonable arguments, but they're just piles of analogies that never address the question being asked them. This latest Gurinder video is an example of that.

Above is the video, which I've made start at the 8:45 mark, the beginning of the interchange with a questioner discussed by "j."

Comments

[Dungeness]

@ The question asked of the guru pertains to why someone would leave
@ RSSB, as many have done. I'm one of them. Dhillon's response is typical
@ of fundamentalist religions, which denigrates anyone who chooses to
@ deconvert from the religion.

However, GSD doesn't imply that his answer was all inclusive in
any way, applicable to a specific individual , and, importantly,
very clearly not intended to be a denigration of each "ex" who
leaves. There was no fire and brimstone, eternal damnation,
or warning of godly wrath and misfortune raining down either.

Some may choose to explore different paths for a variety of
reasons. But, facing the often difficult and deflating awareness
that comes with discipline, self examination, and constant
mindfulness, is a daunting 24x7 task. Under these circumstances
we're all "mentally weak" some (or most) of the time. GSD may
well have been addressing the most pervasive reason for "ex"-ing
out as a reminder of a mirror that goes unused..

[s*]

The questioner told that some go and use alcohol etc..

But not that some just go a different way after some time..
It might be that then a different answer had been there..possibly..

[Georgy Porgy]

I don’t see what the big deal is.

He’s basically said it’s your own burden to carry - makes sense to me. Reap what you sow and all that.

Sounds like if you get initiated and then back-pedal, you in da shit - but if you don’t believe in rssb anyway why worry?

Where is the bit about the ‘weak cowards’? that too me is the truth, but the guru seems too polite to say it. Not derogatory, it’s just the truth.

[Georgy Porgy]

That’s a really good clip - thanks for sharing.

Yep, the big dog makes a lot of sense - lot of wisdom in those words.

Interesting what he had to say about “self-pity” being an indulgence.

He’s right, best you can do is gird yourself up and keep going - no point in this wallowing woe is me I am depressed. It’s pointless, helps no one.

[manoj]

I think Gurinder dhillion needs to have a good look at his out of date Waiter responses. That's all he was back in Spain and that's all he will be. The Full of i know it all facts when he hasn't got the faintest clue to what lifes all about and how it should be lived. Just one look at his own lifestyle shows you all you need to know. A life full of lies, contradictions, stealing millions and being a top clown in the circus doesn't give him any merit to be in the hot seat to answers any questions. It's high time that GSD answers the real questions were all waiting to hear, about all the factual facts regarding his criminal activities and his luxurious way of life. It's easy to go through life on one ego trip and to put others down so you can make yourself feel better than everyone else, but in reality were all the same and time exposes everything. As it has with GSD. High Time to get of the pedestal GSD and face the ultimate truth. TIP PLEASE.

[Uchit]

So having read the responses from the so called , self proclaimed god on earth I find that his responses represent a totally jealous and angry man that someone has finally got the guts to leave the web and mind virus. He would do anything to get them back - leaving they are finally free to live their own life out from the clutches of the spiders control. His responses clearly illustrate intimidating and bullying tactics. He also infers that he somehow has contact with god, when he clearly has more attachment to his over inflated ego money and land.

[S]

Georgy, please don’t ever get initiated. It’s people like you that make people want to leave the path in the first place.

[S]

Again, I think comments from people who have never been initiated and are trying to defend the guru are pure HYPOCRISY.

It’s hypocrisy to talk about how easy the path is when you choose not to get initiated yourself. Do you think that GSD would even begin to appreciate your comments? You’re supporting him and condemning his followers while not even lifting a finger to do the heaving lifting.

I don’t think any Saint wants a hypocrite defending them.

[S]

You haven’t applied for meditation nor have you ever sat in meditation one day in your life. Do you not see the absolute absurdity of your opinions? You have absolutely no experience yet you have the audacity to preach to others.

It’s a very difficult path. Read any of the books of the Saints.

Stop continuously judging others and take a good look at yourself. By GSD’s definition you are NOT a Satsangi or even a seeker because you have no desire to get initiated so stop this charade.

[S]

Jesus, Georgy, get off the couch and get initiated or else stop defending the guru like he’s your BFF. If you really want to be his friend then stop talking about the path and do something about it.

[S]

At least Brian put in 35 years of daily meditation.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia saints don’t look at people as hypocrites. That’s not how they see us. Its maybe how we see each other,
Our shortcomings our views

[S]

Sonia saints don’t look at people as hypocrites. That’s not how they see us. Its maybe how we see each other,
Our shortcomings our views

Posted by: Jen from Austin Texas | June 16, 2020 at 07:02 PM

Well, then Georgy needs to remember “don’t dish it out if you can’t take it.” I’m just telling him what Gurinder would tell him. Gurinder isn’t going to put on kid gloves for Georgy either.

[S]

You can take the guru out of Mughal but you can’t take the Mughal out of the guru.

Georgy needs to toughen up and take a piece of his own medicine.

[S]

*Moga*

Same goddamn thing

[Spence Tepper]

When a billion dollars of fraudulently diverted funds passes through your personal checking accounts its difficult to speak with credibility and integrity about the good student who took proper care and discipline, and who thereby succeeded.

The real point is that in spite of effort we can be derailed and distracted. And with God's help we can get our lives back on track. And then all is forgiven.

But if you are derailed and distracted by play with real estate and money, unable to get out, or even acknowledge the trouble that lack of attention caused, you cannot credibly stand as the model student who studied and did not play, in order to pass his exams without incident. You were not that student. You played around and lost while others diligently did not play and stuck to their meditation.

But in God's house there is room for all. Because in His presence and bliss all those distractions become insipid all of their own.

No true Saint pretends to own the path. It is nature, it is our true nature, in each of us. And we have only to reconnect.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

Hazur Maharaj Ji Charan Singh became top of his class, and later became spiritual teacher after Sardar Bahadur Jagat Singh Ji. This valedictorian's level of achievement next went to Sri Gurinder Singh Dhillon. His teacher Charan, with respect, taught the highest love and forgiveness, e.g:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son#Similar_parable_in_Mahayana_Buddhism

[Uchit]

I see no real counter argument for why GSD is the saviour from any of the supporters of this master. There seem to be many trolls on this sight, that are taking the opportunity to promote the fake guru in a more positive light and add links to his sight without any reason but being blind trolls who probably think they are doing SEVA for their master. Where is the reasons why he is the saviour? Give me 3 good reasons? As far as hypocrisy is concerned this baba is the biggest hypocrite and contradiction to his own rssb teachings .

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

I see no real counter argument for why GSD is the saviour from any of the supporters of this master. There seem to be many trolls on this sight, that are taking the opportunity to promote the fake guru in a more positive light and add links to his sight without any reason but being blind trolls who probably think they are doing SEVA for their master. Where is the reasons why he is the saviour? Give me 3 good reasons?

Posted by: Uchit | June 17, 2020 at 05:47 AM

Pardon.

This thread commented on a video of my Spiritual Teacher Baba Ji (starting 8:45 in video).

Everyone is entitled to their perspective of what he says to the questioner in video. Here, Baba Ji explains why some initiates leave the path. Dropping out from a Spiritual class of sorts, taught by the Teachers at RSSB. Master is always wanting them to pass, but ultimately it is up to them.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
You ask a great question..
"Where is the reasons why he is the saviour? Give me 3 good reasons?"

Your question may have been rhetorical. And as with many things, people can get addicted to something that isn't good for them.

But there actually are several good reasons to consider Baba Ji as a savior of many.

1. The meditation method is solid and yields amazing results for many. But not all. It is legitimate to seek a path that works for you, and change your path as needs determine. But if that path works for you it makes sense to stay with it.

You will notice that Gurinder's entire focus is on the meditation practice. If you get good results, that's a good reason to stay. Only those who do will be able to understand that. They will ignore everything else about Gurinder, the RSSB organization, and the human failings therein, or make excuses for each issue of unsavory conduct or culture - bound bias, if they are getting experience, bliss, and happiness in their devotion to Baba Ji, as practiced in their meditation.

2. The practice falls within the range of other practices that have proven clinically to be extremely healthy. Your brain is years younger years longer with regular meditation practice.

3. The practice, by calming down emotions and raising cognitive functioning, has changed the personal choices and lives of many.

4. Some find in both the RSSB literature and Gurinder nuggets of wisdom and inspiration.

It isn't for everyone, but there are real benefits for some. And just as the shortcomings can lead others, legitimately, to seek a better fit for themselves, others are legitimately well suited to Gurinder and the RSSB version of spirituality.

[j]

"I don’t see what the big deal is. He’s basically said it’s your own burden to carry - makes sense to me. Reap what you sow and all that."

This is an example of what I was referring to, with respect to the need to read the Guru's responses closely.
No one can argue against the wisdom of platitudes like "we must reap what we sow." But such bromides are used by the Guru to dodge the question asked him.

2 things are wrong with Gurinder's responses.

1) They add up to a definition of sant mat as nothing more than raja yoga -- a way to lift oneself up to God via one's own efforts. The path of sant mat is supposed to be uniquely different from other spiritual schools. It's supposed to be centered upon a living and real (not imagined) relationship with the living embodiment of God himself. Initiation in sant mat is supposed to be more than just a ritual or a way to cement one's motivation to follow the path. Rather, it's supposed to be an actual ontological change in the Satsangi, where his jiva enters into an eternal relationship with the initiating Guru. Gurinder's attitude toward sant mat masterhood is a strange one, or at least it's heterodox to what the other gurus in his line has said about it. Gurinder has reportedly said that his status as guru is a result of "what he did,"

2) The burden of the path is each initiate's karma. Indeed, the whole point of sant mat is that it claims to offer a solution to the dilemma of karma. But this solution isn't supposed to be imaginary or alleviated by "atmosphere" as Gurinder says, but by an actual living relationship with the initiating guru. Those are the teachings of traditional sant mat, which Gurinder has no problem citing when it suits his purposes. For example, Gurinder himself has said, "dead gurus have no power to help anyone." But the problem here is that Gurinder is playing it both ways. He's both claiming to be a genuine sant mat guru who has unique powers to save souls from samsara, with the ability to know who is a "marked soul," and at the same time he's copping out with a flurry of lame excuses when asked why those he initiates leave the path. Traditional sant mat teachings say that the Guru has a part in the destiny of everyone he initiates.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi J!
Your comments are well taken. I suggest a broader, more atheist view might help explain the function of RSSB.

Let's pretend Karma is just a concept to help human beings understand in a human way why all things have a cause. Unfortunately, the human morality of justice does not drive the real cause and effect of reality.

But if you believe you from long ago are the cause of all your ills today, and the net result is you stay focused just on what you can change, then rather than be defeated, there is utility to thinking along Karmic lines. We must choose what to think because the hard evidence for Karma is extremely limited.

Gurinder's argument that if your just did your part harder and better you wouldn't complain, is an approach that works for some. His approach of "I'm not promising anything at all" is only a shock to those who were looking for promises, hoping for something. For those who are happy, they feel justified they are doing enough.

For those who are unhappy they may feel the Master is no personal harm to them and persist in their meditation, which is actually a healthy practice. If that gives them the peace, harmony and connection they need to survive, then they have found their salvation and generally have no further questions, interest or concerns about death, or even the next five minutes.

In all cases the search for ultimate truth becomes inconsequential.

Most of the questions people bring to the Master have to do with loosening the rules, breaking the rules, stretching the rules and asking if this is OK.

So the rules, and the organization, dvd the Master's role ends up shaping this kind of thinking. We look to master fit approval and then he needs to tennis us to look at ourselves on the mirror, when we should just be listening to our conscience to begin with.

People suffering, aware of their flaws, are looking for solid ground, an older, wiser brother to help them out of a ditch and to give them a practice that they can cling to under any conditions and find connection and peace. Not empty prayer into an empty void, but a real relationship with our connection to this creation.

That already exists in each of us.

[Spence Tepper]

Oops, typos..

Should read
"So the rules, and the organization, and the Master's role ends up shaping this kind of thinking. We look to master for approval and then he needs to remind us to look at ourselves in the mirror, when we should just be listening to our conscience to begin with."

[manoj]

There's even going to be a Cure for the Coronavirus eventually, but Never will anybody ever be able to find a Cure for the RS Cult Virus. The Rs Cult Virus can Hide, Manipulate and Mutate so secretly just like (GSD on a Question and Answer session) eventually taking full control over ones Physical and Spiritual senses leaving him zombified like a puppet in a pantomime. There can never be no saving of the human soul, and it mirrors just like a pissed parrot blowing the trumpet of brilliance of the so called self proclaimed god man. And eventually leading to a egotistical I know it all lifestyle that all rs members swear by. As you can see by the comments on here it's already way too late for most, the parasitic RS Cult Virus has already taken over. Could this be the time to eat some humble pie, pass a piece to GSD too...

[In Search Of]

Hi Spencer. I like your explanation "Your comments are well taken. I suggest a broader, more atheist view might help explain the function of RSSB...."

Since following this blog for a number of years, my question to you would be this: Would you have the same response/outlook if you weren't having any experiences. If you had no validation? Coupled with this having come to know the alleged behavior of GSD?

The vast majority fall into this category. We make a choice to follow the rules, obey the master, etc, or, we choose to walk away. Having taken some time away from RSSB I see the path in a different light, more objective and questioning things looking for a more robust answer. What say you?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi In Search Of
I have had some odd experiences, even in full waking hours. And those are at odds with common sense. But they are commensurate with how the brain and psyche can work.

When Baba Ji turned into Maharaji before my eyes; when a stranger stepped on the stage and transformed into Baba Ji, and the fellow sitting next to me exclaimed "Did you just see that? That guy just became Baba Ji!"; when my young son saw Baba Ji standing over my shoulder while I was cooking in the kitchen, and though he had never seen Baba Ji before, drew an accurate picture of him smirking humorously at my son, these are treasures of the human experience. They don't cease to exist as real internal experiences, even in the waking state. They must be honored as factual personal experiences, just as we honor the facts around the financial scandal.

In my heart, I believe this thief has been watching over my disabled son when I could not. For that I'm grateful. I wish I could help him pay his bills.

You must go with your experience, your judgment, and your heart wherever they lead.

We are here to learn, not pretend the road must be perfectly straight and clear. When it turns, we adjust the wheel accordingly, to stay on it, watchful of the reality, always trying to follow the reality we are presented with.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi In Search Of
You asked
"Would you have the same response/outlook if you weren't having any experiences. If you had no validation? Coupled with this having come to know the alleged behavior of GSD?"

Yes I would not have the same view. I would think like a person defined by their experience and education.

It isn't true that you had no experiences. You had a different and equally important experience. The experience of no validation is itself extremely important. It can lead to change and progress. It is a validation that this isn't connecting for you, isn't working for you. Add to that what we know from the press and it would be reasonable to consider finding a different path to Truth.

Unless the meditation is working for you. Than you might view things from that perspective.

At the bare minimum each of us must understand we decide what we choose to believe. Therefore using our best judgment is crucial throughout life. We can't abdicate our life to someone else as much as we wish we could. We are still making our own decision even there. So we might as well own that and use our best judgment from the information each of us has on hand.

[Spence Tepper]

Serendipity or?
When I was in college my roommate and I weren't getting on too well. He liked to smoke pot and have a lot of sex, bringing girls in on a regular basis. I remained quiet thinking this was all part of adjusting to life. But I was hurt when I discovered I was paying more than half the rent. Confronting my roommate he was unapologetic, and inflexible.

My Satsangi friend Tommy lived in an apartment building right off campus with his wife Maria. He suggested I find another apartment. So I searched for a month with no luck. Every apartment had a waiting list of students trying to get in. I told Tommy this one day and he calmly looked at me and said, "Spence, tomorrow morning I want you to knock on the door of my apartment Manager and ask if there are any vacancies."

I replied, "Tommy, this building has nothing posted. There are no vacancies here. And everywhere there are waiting lists. This building is right next to campus. I don't think it's possible to get in."

Tommy said, "Never mind that. Please do as I ask. And whatever happens don't tell anyone, and be thankful to Master."

The next day I did as Tommy asked. The Manager invited me in, asked me to sit at his table and proceeded to say, "It's funny you just knocked on the door right now, because a few minutes ago one of my tenants let me know he needs to move out in two weeks. Of course I have a very long list of students, but I'm inclined to give you the apartment, since you seem like a nice fellow. "

And so it was. I lived for three years two doors down from Tommy and Maria.

We can't explain reality. We just try to accept it gratefully.

[Sewak]

Hello Everyone, I don't know my comment is relevant to above conversation or not but I want to share my experience about rssb...I came to know about this teaching in 2013 and after one year in November 2014 I got initiated by GSD...till March 2015 approx 5 months. I used to sit on meditation daily 2.5 hours without fail even for single day..I didn't make any progress inside or spirituality..so I was very upset and started praying every day for inner experience ...in mid of March 15...I started to have some inner experiences...I was so excited but unfortunately after 3,4 days , I broke the one of the vows (good character), I don't know how it happened but after that I m still struggling for any inner experiences...but now my faith is very firm irrespective to any inner experiences...and came to realise that we don't have capacity to hold the inner experiences....just wait no matter how long...

[Uchit]

Guys, especially Spencer, there is good and bad in the physical world, and there is bad disguised as good, a wolf in sheep clothing. You have to use your inner knowing to discern whether the person in the physical has good intentions or harmful intentions. So I ask how do you know that the projections you saw of the baba a malevolent or benevolent. Sure the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light to give you false validation and have you hooked on this path. How else can he fool innocent souls ?

[In Search Of]

Thanks Spence. You wrote: "At the bare minimum each of us must understand we decide what we choose to believe. Therefore using our best judgment is crucial throughout life. We can't abdicate our life to someone else as much as we wish we could. We are still making our own decision even there. So we might as well own that and use our best judgment from the information each of us has on hand."

Completely agree with this. Weird thing about inner experiences. I had almost all of them before getting initiated by GSD. Once I got initiated, they disappeared. I've come to realize that the mediation I did on my own before GSD was within myself, so to speak. It was not "targeted" with anyone in particular. Once I got initiation, I projected that on GSD. Felt like I hit a brick wall.

I grew up in a satsangi famliy. So I've come full circle and now realized I'm going back to that same mindset I had early on. I have the practice, I just need to get back to where I was before all this.

Appreciate your insights.

[s*]

Jeezz lost my post..
Long story short.
I do'nt like the karma thing.
Plus the judgment going along with that.
So when the karma is not relevent..
There is not the believe system I was in.
I have mixed feelings about everything so..
I just ''am''.
Doing meditation is very fine.
No simran just sitting in silence..
Fine satsangi friends go sometimes to sewa and satsang..
Not because it's just family feeling because long on the path.
What babaji is or not..I have no idea.
The fraud thing is difficult and I still feel also for the sons of Nimmi(Maharji's daughters sons)
So..my Path is my own..nobody else's.
Everyone walks their own way ,their own Path.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
You asked
"Sure the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light to give you false validation and have you hooked on this path. How else can he fool innocent souls ?"

The answer is the same. We make our own flawed decision with what's available.

But in all accounts it's our decision. We have limited knowledge. That's the human condition. But let's try acknowledging our failings and the reality around us. If the human brain can create images as real as you and I that are helpful and benevolent, loving and supportive, does it matter where our brain took its inspiration? It came from a better place than my ability to imagine. I'm more enthralled that there is a connection within each of us to that loving benevolence, hard wired, biochemically engineered into us, part of our connection to this physical reality. I'm grateful my son got that, with all he's had to endure. How our brain turns that into a familiar symbol is amazing. I have no idea of the subatomic workings. I'm just enjoying it.

[s*]

Fine satsangi friends for so many years,that's also why I like going to satsang and doing sewa.
Even when I do not mix with them perse.
It's feeling at home sometimes..when the atmosphere is good.

Even when the satsang is not always my ''thing'',sometimes it can be nice..
If it is not tooo much about the teachings,or the need of the Master..

I do'nt know how I feel for Babaji or my Maharaji..because I do not REALLY know them.
Nor I do not really understand them after over 50 years

[Uchit]

Yes Spencer we are all connected, and yes we are powerful as we are particles of the true spirit. But beware a so called charlatan that think he knows more about god than anyone else. They create a monopoly, a cult,
and a religion and the only way to communicate to god and your salvation just as the Roman's did and Egyptians did. This creates a dependency and ability for the spider to manipulate those caught inside its web of lies, both physically and spiritually. there are consequences in all the choices you make knowingly or unknowingly. It's like taking the advice of a good looking thief who leads you down the wrong path, you would still get locked up

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
We will each have to learn to make that discrimination. That we can be mislead, influenced, and that we can be saved, these are all relative judgments and we will have to make them in order to manage what little time we have here. If I had a dollar for every poor judgment I made!

If the meditation practice works for you then you have something valuable. But I think it's a good idea to compare notes with each other. Let's learn first and then we can use that information for the development of our own personal perspective. I don't think it's a good idea to make more mystery when we are already so completely ignorant of so many things, far more than we could learn about in our tiny lives, and this tiny brain. Rather, I think we should share what we know, learn about the magnificent things built for our benefit into this brain and use our limited time to enjoy and develop those things.

So, unfortunately, the final decision about one's progress is one's own choice. In that kingdom within us, it is up to us. And this is why, if something isn't working, we need to make changes and move without hesitation. For some that's "leaving the path". For me, that was refining and adapting the practice until I understood how it worked and then I wasn't working against it. And unfortunately, the meditation is very sensitive to many things, so we end up with a fairly narrow life. But we are mining treasure. So we can weigh the gold we've found that day with the cost of arranging our life around work in this mine (mind). So far the gold has been much more dear than the cost.

No one actually leaves the path. The only path is the natural one inside you. It isn't Sant Mat, or Christianity, or even Science. It's in you, whatever the hell that is. And it's your path, however twisty it is. You get to choose your own direction, but it's all your path of development. You never leave that. There is no loss changing direction. Progress requires it.

We do fall. Sometimes we are pushed! That person deserves some blame, but unfortunately getting back up requires all our attention so there really isn't time to lose blaming anyone.

But it's our choice to get back up again and keep walking. And if we fall and someone grabs us roughly and yanks us back up, we can complain a little, but we should stay focused and keep walking. And then, realizing we are walking again, give a nod of thanks to the SOB who pulled us up.

[s*]

''No one actually leaves the path. The only path is the natural one inside you. It isn't Sant Mat, or Christianity, or even Science. It's in you, whatever the hell that is. And it's your path, however twisty it is. You get to choose your own direction, but it's all your path of development. You never leave that. There is no loss changing direction. Progress requires it. ''
Spence,
Yes I see that also this way.
You are very nice in your thoughts and dealings.
I apreciate that a lot!
Thank you.
Love is most important what ever face it has..
It has many faces..
But love and compassion for oneselves and others is the most important thing..
Aho..

[Uchit]

Spencer
Shouldn't you be learning from your actions and poor judgements , as there are costly consequences even if you are completely innocent . The first 3 words in your mantras are the lords of kaal, why are you repeating these after all your master says if you think of an apple the image comes to your head. How are you saying your meditation works, what experience are you getting that gives you that validation that it is the right path? I also want to say that it is a path less path, as only a so called guru , of which there are plenty, create a so called path to hook desperate people so that they can escape from their real life pains and sorrows - this is just a honey trap for the blind

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
You asked, "Shouldn't you be learning from your actions and poor judgements , as there are costly consequences even if you are completely innocent ."

Yes, that's the idea. But unfortunately we are dependent upon our own flawed judgements for that. And some habits are hard to break. Still, self - improvement is the goal. Did we make the effort? That is the key.

You stated, then asked
" The first 3 words in your mantras are the lords of kaal, why are you repeating these after all your master says if you think of an apple the image comes to your head."

The words only have the power you give them, Uchit. They are internal. They don't mean what anyone else defines them as. Of course you can pick your own words. And in truth it is your own mind that attributes meaning to them. If there is anything to fear, it is what your own mind does with what it is given. But you can learn to befriend this mind. It has great power within it. If you feel benevolent as a result of meditation, and do good works as a result, you've got it. Don't worry about the names.. Jesus, Kal, Mohmmad, Nanak, they are only what your mind projects upon them. They have no more meaning than that. If you don't deconstruct this path and remake it for your own use, you aren't on the true path.

You asked, "How are you saying your meditation works, what experience are you getting that gives you that validation that it is the right path?"

My time with Maharaji each morning, and my occasional flights to the higher regions.

Consistent each day is Maharaji's brilliant illuminated smiling face that arrives in its own time during the first few minutes. Then
joy, inspirarion, and the deep unfathomable peace and harmony with all things that opens up to me. All the events and happenings in my life take on a completely different perspective. Challenges, criticism and conflicts are nothing but simple dust. Praise and adoration is just passing breeze. Solutions arise naturally to the surface. Great ideas emerge from that peace and light.

Sensorily, this can include, usually weekly, a trip to the stars within in the embrace of my Master, and less often, but periodically, the higher regions and even the approach of other souls.

What can this mean to you? It can only mean one thing. There are wonderful things inside you waiting to be discovered. A little calm concentration is all you need. Your savior, pick one, is inside you and willing to help at all times. Find Him /Her.

Personally, if this is simply brain functioning, which I'm inclined to believe, the brain has magnificent functions waiting for you to develop. There is a model of the entire creation within you, and we are all connected, though those connections are mysterious and often perceived in the brain's own symbolic language. It's all good news Uchit, if you understand the physiological reality behind it.

[Uchit]

Spencer
The words are special words given by the master as mantra as they have certain powers behind them, you are calling and opening your self up to these lords of various realms which are nothing but spirits and entities that infiltrate your 3rd eye and they give you all the experience inside . It's like a possession. How do you know what the true intention of these entities are? U yourself admit that your judgement isn't very good, How do you know that it's not kaal showing u these experiences? Feelings and emotions can easily be manipulated and turned on, just watch a love story and you feel the longing for love, and watch a horror movie and you cant sleep at night. So how do you know you have not got kaal disguised as a guru inside showing you all these flashing lights , bells and whistles and illusions ?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
You ask some good questions.
"How do you know what the true intention of these entities are? U yourself admit that your judgement isn't very good, How do you know that it's not kaal showing u these experiences? Feelings and emotions can easily be manipulated and turned on, just watch a love story and you feel the longing for love, and watch a horror movie and you cant sleep at night. So how do you know you have not got kaal disguised as a guru inside showing you all these flashing lights , bells and whistles and illusions ?"

How would you know Uchit? What is your method for finding out?

You state" you are calling and opening your self up to these lords of various realms which are nothing but spirits and entities that infiltrate your 3rd eye and they give you all the experience inside . It's like a possession. "

How do you know these things? Maybe they are not as you write.
I've explained my experiences. What are yours?

[manoj]

Spence

Many a person have had and are still having these so called inner and outer experiences every day, but be aware you are Not in a state to know who and what dark forces are in play. illusion is your delusion and Ego always ends in a sorry pityful downfall. Trust Nobody and stop Dancing with the Devil. In the end you will pay the price, with your Soul.
God bless

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manoj
You wrote
"Many a person have had and are still having these so called inner and outer experiences every day,"

Manoj, our entire existence is inner experience. The brain creates an interpretation for us each moment. Physiologically that's all we perceive. There is no getting away from that. And the brain modifies reality before we even see or hear it. This is why you look at a ruler and see a straight line. But your curved lenses and curved retina actually peoject an upside down curved image. Your brain is hardwired to straighten that out and turn it right side up so perfectly you can aim, move, balance and manipulate objects with amazing accuracy. Because the brain very precisely turns an inaccurate image into an accurate one. All of us live in that world.

You wrote, "you are Not in a state to know who and what dark forces are in play. illusion is your delusion and Ego always ends in a sorry pityful downfall"

Manoj, are you in a position to know? What are your experiences which have taught you to judge others in this way?

What gives you the confidence that you know the truth, a truth you can boldly apply without question to others?

Is it possible you are not correct?

And how would you know if you were wrong?

What if you could learn to see that curved upside down image exactly as your eye recorded it, before your brain manipulates it? To see that image, curved and upside down. Would that be an illusion? Or is that one layer closer to the truth?

Or is the manipulation of your brain, and all its corrections, before you are even aware of that ruler, actually giving you a more accurate, truthful image?

[manoj]

Spence

Manoj, are you in a position to know? What are your experiences which have taught you to judge others in this way?

What gives you the confidence that you know the truth, a truth you can boldly apply without question to others?

Is it possible you are not correct?

And how would you know if you were wrong?

You're answering your own questions
Try answering them to yourself.
"The smaller your reality, the more convinced you are that you know everything"
Live and Learn
Humble pies the answer.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manoj
You wrote
"You're answering your own questions
Try answering them to yourself."

That is a very impolite answer. Earlier I'd indicated the basis of my views and the experiences which helped to shape them.

You indicated I was mistaken. And I simply asked you to offer the basis of your opinion.

When you tell someone they are wrong or misguided you should be prepared to offer the factual basis of your judgment. The idea is to be helpful.

I don't mind you telling me I'm wrong Manoj. Maybe you have something valuable to teach me. But if you can't educate on the basis of your views, why bring them up?

Why tell someone they are wrong if you have no intention of being helpful?

If your effort was to be helpful you have failed. But if you were never interested in helping, then what purpose does criticism have for you?

[Dev]

Hi Spence, I can see that Uchit and manoj just have questions and doubts about others spiritual progress and it’s authenticity. When you asked Uchit, how he knows that you are mistaken,he has no reply just an impolite bunch of few more questions. Both of them I can see have some serious grudge against rssb but have no concrete way of proving that they are on right path. And By the way, Spence, brilliant reply and wonderful experiences!!! I just want to tell Uchit and Manoj “to everyone his own”

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Dev, that was nice.

[Uchit]

Spensor
You have to do some honest soul searching, look at your experience outside the box. when did your inner experience start to happen? Are you or have you been considered for example a main role in rssb and part of their agenda and growth of the cult ? Have u started getting these experiences when you were about to give up the path? Have you threatened the path? Did you get experiences before initiation? You need to dig deep on your journey and how you got what you have been given? Me , as soon as I turned away from the path , I began being attacked by entities and visitations at night, I had many night maire. Also have very regular dreams of the fake guru, where as before I had nothing - what a coincidence. The so called angels that you get put into you when you get initiated are demons masquerading as Angel's of light . They are entities that control thought and emotions and make you guilty and depressed and make you want to see the guru and will turn against you when you refuse to listen to your thoughts and emotions. So I say question them, challenge them, tell them to reveal the truth of who they are and work for. Read up on archons and demons , as they do maskerad as spirits of light. Christ spoke about them and said we are in a battle with an unseen enemy. Look at Egyptians pheros and how they have the third eye pierced by a snake entity. Look at your own life, are you getting allot of bad luck and obstacles? As this is what happens when you leave and especially when you want to spread the word ..that's how I know they are not your friends but enemies

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
Thank you for taking the time to provide some of the reasons and rationales for your views.

If you have found someone you trust, as a friend and guide, I think that is most important. You mentioned ego. A good friend can give you a good check on that. And they can give you some security and peace in times of stress and fear. Someone who understands the demons you have had to deal with, and can give you a way to master that situation and move on, past it. So that you never need live in fear ever again.

As for me, the inner regions have been a part of my internal experience from very early childhood. I was born a jew, and was taught to pray every night. When I was five years old I prayed to God to show himself to me. And then, as I feel asleep, I was pulled up by the most intense light and thunderous roar that was painful to experience. Pulled up shooting like out of a cannon through showers of multi colored stars. But it was painful, too loud, to bright, and terrifying . And I remember shouting, in this dream, "No, stop. I can't take this."

And then all of it evaporated. And I was back in bed, crying, shouting for my parents. They tried to understand. They tried to get me help. But this event, and the repetition of it over the years, made clear to me that this power is not going to go away. My destiny was and is to find a way to live with it constructively. And it seems that this is actually my friend, God, who wanted intimacy with me as much as I did with Him, Her, It. It is a part of each of us. Built into everyone. But not everyone is forced to deal with it. You can anthropomorphize it and say He calls whom He calls. You you could just say this is part of the physiology of some people.

You see, Uchit, the Lord is not actually a personality but the most immense and powerful thing you could imagine. He is the creation, the whole, much larger than what we see or know. He is like the greatest storm imaginable. Larger than this entire creation. All the force of energy in this creation.

So, I believe that force has a will, and brought me to the path. When I read about the stages I recognized them immediately. Here was a compassionate way to deal with that experience in nice easy steps.and God, I choose to believe, is giving me a gentle and human way to deal with this.

Because of my experience, that has shaped my beliefs and life. And because each of us has a different experience we are going to learn different lessons and have different views.

[anami]

"Me , as soon as I turned away from the path , I began being attacked by entities and visitations at night, I had many night maire. Also have very regular dreams of the fake guru, where as before I had nothing - what a coincidence. The so called angels that you get put into you when you get initiated are demons masquerading as Angel's of light ."

Uchit,

Angels aren't put into us at initiation. You don't know what you're talking about. It's obvious you were never initiated and are making things up.

[Georgy Porgy]

Why do people assume they have something to “teach” others and that they can be “helpful” in this regard?

What happens if these so-called ‘teachers’ are, as it often turns out to be the case, the selfsame ppl who are most deluded and most in need of being taught? Yet go on spewing their rot as if it’s the word of God with zero basis for it in the slightest. These self-appointed purveyors of truth knocking other paths like rssb, when their own beliefs and experiences are invariably far more improbably and just sound like rubbish.

I get v worried about these so-called ‘spiritual’ types, esp those who claim to align with atheist views, who then go onto describe the most improbable impossible mystical experiences.

I think these ppl are awful close to what most would call ‘nuts’.

[s*]

The latest video is beautiful.
I love it!
<3

[manoj]

Hi Uchit
Some amazing questions you put out there which spence seems to be replying to like GSD on a q&a session.

Spence and Dev (C&L)
I don't think this is a GSD Cult fan club based website so nobody's going to fall for any of the rs salesman tactics going on here. Took a wrong click? No chance of even Cagney & Lacey cracking this one. The case of the Fraudelent Joker Baba. Anyway do enjoy the Circus (satsangs) but don't forget to hold on tight to your wallets. Happy enlightenment...lol

[Solomon]

the Lord is not actually a personality but the most immense and powerful thing you could imagine. He is the creation, the whole, much larger than what we see or know.

hello Spence Tepper
I always look forward to reading your posts - you have so wonderfully described the Creator - i am so happy fo you and somehow i get this feeling that you are a highly evolved soul.
My best wishes to you !

[Uchit]

Spensor
The demons only reveal themselves when you hind out that they were deceiving you. Your inner experience as a 5 year old where bread crumbs to the outer rssb fake path. You have been tricked and trapped and you don't even know it. This is because you felt comfortable with the stages as soon as you recognized it.
Anami
You are given 5 names in initiation, the first three are of kaal. What you call comes forth , you are therefore calling and opening yourself to demons masquerading as being of light. In initiation you let the fake baba take over your karma you allow your shabad connection to be ntercepted and tied to your so called master. Think about it if you are source and have a direct connection with god why have you allowed a third party to take control of your life. You have given your power away to a stranger entity who has fooled you and will take everything off you in return for nothing , you may get the odd experience to validate that bond but this is nothing for your mind body and soul

[Spence Tepper]

Uchit
Thank you for your comments. What leads you to believe my experiences were bread crumbs?

And what leads you to believe in demons at all?

What has been your experience with demons?

And what help did you find to bring you to where you are today?

Tell us what you know please.

[anami]

Uchit,

Your life is much more exciting than mine! Well, if I meet demons, I'll remember your warning and thank you.

[Spence Tepper]

Mental health is an issue for many people. The brain, like every other organ, is subject to variation, genetics, stress, decay, trauma, nutrition and so many other factors. People conjecture about spirituality but have little grasp of the influence of these very real, physical, factors.

Therefore we should be careful attributing causes or interpretions to our largely symbolic experiences. By habit, nature or sheer ignorance, we generally do not question our own experiences adequately. Because if we did we would need to acknowledge that, honestly, we can't possibly know all the things that cause what we experience. And that's where science is very helpful. Good scientists are very cautious about offering up explanations because money and time to test those explanations comes next. And if their notion is disproven, at some effort and expense by others, their contribution to the journey to find truth is limited at best. Everyone wants to be right. But a scientist, because their notions will be tested, is very cautious. They put a great deal of effort forth to think about, discuss, research before offering any explanations for an event. Even before that, they do so much work with their peers to confirm the event is repeatable and actually is a thing.

Because they know they can be proven wrong.

That is the risk necessary to be proven right.

And without that proof, we are all wrong.

But where opinions are disconnected, where conjecture can be made with zero accountability for testing, you get religion. And by that I mean convictions that this IS the truth or that IS false.

People waste their lives with claims about demons, mental health and God, even claims about the brain.

Without testing, without effort to try new things and share those, without effort to learn a little more about reality, those convictions are no better than false. They should all be considered false except those that you are investigating and testing for your own benefit.

And then you may help others by sharing, not so much your theory, but what your own experience and experiments have yielded.

Anyone serious about truth is extremely cautious.

The rest can be safely ignored. Some people love their own opinions more than the journey to discover truth and have little interest or capacity to try something counter intuitive and new. That attitude is an impediment to discovery.

[Meditator]

To some questions even God will wish to skip a clear and forthright answer for the answer may require first hand experience of the Truths behind the scene in action here.

Rest I believe even if the Guru is perfect but of low IQ in world by His own command as He willed should be appreciated or accepted. But if we do not believe His spiritual stature the doubts will creep in quite obviously in different ways.

[Dev]

Manoj, you always raise doubts about spence and his path but never answer his questions. I can understand your grudge against rssb. Many of us have our own grudges but he asked you simple questions. What is your belief? what path do you follow? How’s you so sure that you are on right path and others are not. May be you r on the right one but that doesn’t mean others r not. And for your information I know a lot about demons. They don’t have so much patience to wait for some soul for so long. They would offer the soul pleasures or whatever his hidden desires are and would force him off track and ruin his life. But nothing of this sort has happened in more than 4 decades with spence (I pray so). Be assured the experience he had is by no means demonic or satanic.

[S]

Uchit,

I’ve had many inexplicable experiences since childhood that some could attribute to spirituality OR imagination. Nonetheless they were very real to me. I’ve found over the years that this is actually quite a common phenomenon among people. Most people have at least a few paranormalish or extraordinary experiences that have no logical explanation. It’s life.

My experience with RSSB was opposite to yours. I stopped having panic attacks and fear as soon as I left. Although, looking back objectively I don’t think RSSB philosophy actually caused the panic. I think it just brought to the forefront certain issues I had. Either way, the fear was quite miserable.

I’m not anti-Sant Mat by any means. I personally feel that the administration has grown too large and pretentious.

[Sonia]

I get really turned off when religious organizations get too large or have administrations and leadership who are status conscious. It’s disgusting. At least to me. Being status conscious is so shallow and pretentious. It’s nauseating. Nobody cares if you live in a big house or wear name brand clothing and drive expensive cars. It’s sad when people try to impress others with those kinds of things. Really pathetic. And nobody cares about your degrees or worldly accomplishments. They mean absolutely zip, zero, nada when it comes to spirituality.

You don’t have to be poor but pleeeeez at least put on a modest front.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dev
Thank you for your kind words.
Bur I did fall. Disastrously and publicly.
I had an affair with a co-worker. We were both partners and owners of a small firm of 200 hospital consultants.

It destroyed my marriage. But in all the years since I've always moved to wherever my ex, her new husband and my son lived. To always be near Sam. And I gave my ex all my money, so she would never have to work again, in part because of my son's disabilities. I had to sign a letter for my attorney that this was by my own choice.

This public and disastrous affair resulted in quite a few hate letters from our employees, deservedly. I had worked so hard to help build the company, right along with Naomi. And the affair which I thought would become a new marriage evaporated after three years. Naomi loved Southern California, and we had bought a house together there. But I had to see my son every week. And eventually I could not do my part in that relationship.

Months after the affair had finally ended, I was asked to step down and work full time in sales. One day I was in Cincinnati in my hotel room. I was to give a presentation that day to a team of senior executives of a health system. But I could not leave my meditation. Every thought of getting off that chair was filled with pain. So there I stayed for the day, just getting up for a meal and to relieve myself.

The next day I knew I would be in trouble, maybe finally lose my job. I called my assistant to explain that I'd missed the meeting, and to ask if she thought I should call to apologize and reschedule.

But all I said was "Hi Leslie..", and she spoke before I did.

"Spence, the CEO called this morning. They loved the presentation you gave yesterday and want you back to plan a go-ahead for the assessment and project."

When I returned in two weeks with brochures I saw that everyone in the board room had a brochure and many had written extensive notes from a presentation I never gave.

Dev, this creation is unexplainable. It's wrong to project attributes to me when I've been carried along. I did something terrible and hurtful to the people I love. So just to put things in perspective.

[S]

@Spence
Wow. That’s quite an experience. 😳

It’s ridiculous for one person to say that another did or didn’t feel or experience something. They can choose to believe or not to believe. Either way, I’ve never heard of an inner, or spiritual, or extraordinary experience that sounded “normal”. That’s the very nature of those things—they’re not “normal” and they’re also not exclusive to any particular religion, sect or creed. Universal throughout history.

[Dungeness]

@ "Spence, the CEO called this morning. They loved the presentation you
@ gave yesterday and want you back..."

The doppelganger musta given a helluva good one.
Either that or the CEO is a real magician.

[S]

Sonia saints don’t look at people as hypocrites. That’s not how they see us. Its maybe how we see each other,
Our shortcomings our views

Posted by: Jen from Austin Texas | June 16, 2020 at 07:02 PM

Jen, I was simply trying to illustrate a point. I don’t care if someone is a hypocrite. I care more that they continually tell lies about themselves.

I didn’t even seriously mean any of that stuff other than to make one single point—stop lying about who you are.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
Yes, I wish I'd been there to see it. My presentions go ok, but not that great.

I love it when someone writes down something I've said but it is an extremely rare event. Mostly I look to the glazed eyes to tell me when to shut up and ask for questions.

That guy is the guy I wanted to be and am not. If I could be Him, just for a few more moments, I could get through this day better.

That's how it's been since.

[Dev]

That’s wonderful Spence! See that’s what I m taking about. Your experience has helped you to get back on track. It has helped you to ease off your distraught and stress. It’s purely a soothing experience. Whereas some try to describe it as demonic. See satanic experience would not help to restore normalcy, it would just push you more and more towards self destruction. Beautiful experience! I wish I could just feel a particle of that!!!!!

[Dev]

Spence, I believe we need to acknowledge the goodness that lies in others. See we all r flawed. No one perfect, there’s nothing like perfection in this land. So if someone is less flawed than me is still much better than me. And the experience you shared shows your determination for meditation even in the midst of all odds.

[Georgy Porgy]

God almighty

Nuts. We got ppl on here giving presentations they were never part of. Away with the fairies. I’ll take the rationality of the guru and rssb over these fruit cakes and supposed ‘teachers’ any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Complete mess.

[Georgy Porgy]

So wait just so i understand - others are allowed their perfectly acceptable ‘inner experiences’ (otherwise known as mental breakdowns), but the teachings of rssb and the big guy are supposedly ‘irrational‘.

Serious question but are the exes just washouts, nutters and flip-floppers? I got a separate theory which is most of them are adulterers, and don’t know the meaning of committment. Nothing wrong but I now understand.

Forget about trying to be intellectually honest, but at least be consistent.

[S/Sonia]

Admittedly this is where I get into a lot of trouble... I’ve been watching this mindless TV series called The Order which is #2 on Netflix right now, and (related/unrelated) those red candles are driving me crazy. But I always get distracted by backgrounds.

That said, 008 was very interesting. Especially the perspective on atheism.

[S]

I didn’t even seriously mean any of that stuff other than to make one single point—stop lying about who you are.

Posted by: S | June 25, 2020 at 07:49 PM

And if you want to remain anonymous, that’s fine but at least maintain a consistent storyline about yourself. (First rule of spy club.)

[S]

So wait just so i understand - others are allowed their perfectly acceptable ‘inner experiences’ (otherwise known as mental breakdowns), but the teachings of rssb and the big guy are supposedly ‘irrational‘.

Serious question but are the exes just washouts, nutters and flip-floppers? I got a separate theory which is most of them are adulterers, and don’t know the meaning of committment. Nothing wrong but I now understand.

Forget about trying to be intellectually honest, but at least be consistent.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | June 26, 2020 at 02:29 AM

“most of them are adulterers”? “don’t know the meaning of commitment”?

Wow.

And then you say “Nothing wrong but now I understand.” I think everyone agrees adultery leads nowhere good. And I’m just curious, what do you know about commitment? Have you ever been committed to anyone?

Have you ever been committed?

[S]

Forget about trying to be intellectually honest, but at least be consistent.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | June 26, 2020 at 02:29 AM

And if you want to remain anonymous, that’s fine but at least maintain a consistent storyline about yourself. (First rule of spy club.)

Posted by: S | June 26, 2020 at 04:07 AM

Oh, the irony! Perhaps the only thing we have in common—the desire for others to be consistent. And yet... who’s consistent??

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
We're all a mixed bag. But isn't that the point? All of us have feet of clay. But something incredible within waiting to be discovered. Not of our making. Really did you even make up your own mind?

Maybe the person who strives to be better is the greatest hypocrite because they usually don't meet their own standard. But the standard can be everything, worth stretching for, worth failure and public humiliation. Yes it would be nice to succeed. But to fail trying is also quite noble. And when you have found that treasure within yourself, it's very easy to admit when we screw up, and then, to protect that treasure, reform.

But not having that connection, I can see why people are so defensive. They think this is all there is.

But I tell you, nothing is as sweet as something which forever more anchors that truth that there is love in this creation for you, individually, despite our utter failures. Yes I got lost for a moment at the carnival. But my Father had never actually let go of my hand.

Yes, I'm a hypocrite, because I can't pretend to defend any view, only to share what I see today.

So tomorrow my opinion may change. And that's a great thing.

My commitment to the path will never change. It frees me to play with any opinions I like. I know that because when I fuck up the pain is so great all I can do is mediate. All I want is to be in His lap. That is who I am. Biochemistry, physiology, all of it.

Gurinder is in charge of my son's life. And I'm happy to help that thief pay his bills. I owe him for all the nights of good sleep I got knowing He was on watch.

No point in pretending things aren't at they are. If I'm flawed, who isn't? Not the point. It's what's inside the box that matters. Not the bruises from shipping on the outer box. Who doesn't have those? And what a complete waste of time trying to take the dents in the box out for cosmetic purposes. Open the damn box. Discard it for a while. Enjoy the treasure.

[Georgy Porgy]

Well I just find it mighty Gdam strange that the selfsame self-proclaimed head of morality that was so indignant about the guru’s supposed lack of morality is in reality a completely ammoral adulterer.

I mean don’t you all remember - we heard it for days on end - reverberating as if it were the words of God himself - pay your debts.

I reckon the only debts that need to be paid are going to be paid in full.

You spat on your fathers hand after the carnival. You called your father a fraud and yet here you are insisting he’s always been with you. You should be downright ashamed. I’d never treat my enemy like that let alone your Father.

Maybe I should become one of these pseudoscientific mind quacks and ‘teach’ others - what a Gdam joke.

[Georgy Porgy]

The only fraud is you. So don’t point fingers ever again.

You broke your vows , your commitments to your wife and you’ve back-stabbed your own guru.

Judas.

[Georgy Porgy]

What bruises from shipping are you talking about?

Stop with the BS. Recognizable yourself for what you are - an unabated ammoral adulterer who couldn’t keep his Johnson in his pants. That’s it.

You took vows. You committed to your wife. You then broke your vows and commitments. You did all this, like most adulterers, in the shadows causing even more suffering and distrust.

And you have the temerity to call the guru a fraud. There’s only one fraud here.

[S]

Well, for someone who’s never committed to marriage or anyone or anything (or who the f*k knows/who can say) you probably shouldn’t be pointing fingers either.

[Spence Tepper]

Georgy
Look how easily you condemn others!
Do you feel the flaws of others give you that free space to unleash your anger?

Proceed ahead.

Be yourself, Georgy.

I forgive you in advance. Master forgave me. And I have forgiven myself.

So why not get started in this work yourself? Adopt a practice.

[Spence Tepper]

Georgy
When a criminal serves his sentence and has paid his debts he is the same as you and I. You are as free to judge as I am. You are not the only one free to condemn bad behavior. I acknowledged the sin at the time. There was nothing done in the shadows as you infer. I committed a crime. I've spent the rest of my life paying my debt.

I only ask you to do the same. Pay your debts too. We should all do so. Not make any excuses for our sins. I don't.

Join me.

[anami]

Georgy Porgy,

Here are words from Huzur Maharaj Sawan Singh Ji in Spiritual Gems:

"21. I should like to point out that I have the same degree of love and affection for each and every member of the Brotherhood, like a father towards his children; secondly, according to R. S. teachings the sins and short-comings of a soul are viewed by the Master in the same light as a washerman regards the dirt on a cloth. He cares for the cloth and not the least for the dirt. His aim is to cleanse the cloth by some means or other; whether by the gentle method of applying soap or by the rough and ready method of beating the cloth against a slab of stone. It depends upon His Will.
In the same way the Master aims at reforming His disciples and curing them of their bad habits and wicked deeds so that the spirit may shine in its purity. He determines as to life's procedure. At first He points out our mistakes in gentleness and with love. If this fails, then He adopts a less gentle course and if even that does not serve its purpose, then He applies drastic remedies. In short, he is bent on reforming.
To explain the matter more fully, the Master at first tries to purify us by His discourses. If this fails, then He applies the soap of poverty, adversity and disease. If these do not answer the purpose, then He gives another birth to the disciple. He does not rest until He has taken the spirit of His disciple to its Source. Even if the pupil deserts Him, becomes hostile toward Him or wishes to injure Him, He does not slacken His efforts."

[Georgy Porgy]

I don’t need forgiveness. I’ve not taken vows and broken them. I’m not an amoral adulterer who left his wife in the lurch. I’ve not vilified the guru as a thief or fraud based on unsubstantiated rumour.

All I’ve done is taken your faux morality and hypricracy to task.

Take your medicine. You are the fraud. You have no moral compass for judging others. None at all.

You are a judas and have betrayed the person who you yourself acknowledge has stood steadfastly with you despite your weakness.

[Spence Tepper]

Georgy
You should take vows, even if they demand more than you are capable of. Take vows you believe in. Whether in science, or medicine, public or human service.

It is better to make commitments that are worthy, and striving, fail. Than to stay motionless judging others.

My friend Tommy knew and hinted about what was to happen.

"Spence, we all have feet of clay. But when you fall, fall with your face to the sun. Falls will happen. Get back up again."

No one should have a false impression of me, nor of your Georgy.

[Uchit]

Spensor
Looks like you been played like a puppet . It is interesting you mentioned a presentation but was un aware of doing it . This is called possession , just like a beyonce says she gets possessed by her demon called sasha before going on stage.
Also you mention scientific proof for the negative, when you go flying around universe, where is the scientific proof for that. You are in duality, if there positive there has to be negative, even more so in the heaven region. If you only see one half of the picture you will never see the full picture, which is that you are being fooled and played by forces that are negative . Time to do some soul searching . The fake baba of beas gives the game away, hes a total hypocrite, a billionaire baba , and yet has the nerve to sit on the stage and say to ruin someone life give him a million dollars. Interestingly he also says he could be the biggest crook on the planet. Yet people still believe he is god on earth.

[Uchit]

Anami
That passage sounds all a big fairy tale and we need to get out of lala land. Why have people allowed a so called baba to deal the punishment for your own actions just because they sound so sweet. Doesn't life teach you the lessons by itself , so you learn your own life experiences. In fact they say a satsangi life is more of a struggle than average person, this strikes of a complete manipulation of your life by forces you cannot see. In fact shouldn't your life be fantastic if you meet a so called guru. Added to this you see the current guru GSD, having cancer, diabetes, having his house in Haynes park UK being struck by lightening. So if he cant help himself how is he gonna help you or anyone else? It is time we expose these so called gurus and cults. They do nothing for you but gain everything, your mind , your body and your soul when you pass over

[S]

I watched 010 tonight. It managed to take every absurd response ever and put them all into one response.

I’m not going to waste my time with that crap anymore.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Uchit
You wrote
"Looks like you been played like a puppet"

Join the club! We are all under the influence of our genetics, biology, conditioning, culture, education, environment, economics, family and friends.

Human beings are social creatures. And even in isolation we are molded by this biochemical bag we call the brain.

But there is a great source of strength and love within us, and gradually we can become aware of it and mold our life around it.

Life at its core is a positive principle. God is that life and God is love. We may symbolize it in any number of ways. This superior and perfect element buried within each of us, part of our biology and physiology, connects us to the entire creation. It has practically nothing to do with our personality, which we are happy to leave aside in its presence.

All else that we perceive is just a reflection of that personality and mind, and that would be demons and heroes that we ourselves make. They gain their life energy only from our attention.

So find something compelling, worthy of your limited time and attention.

[S]

@Uchit

“This is called possession , just like a beyonce says she gets possessed by her demon called sasha before going on stage.”

For real? 😂

[S]

Georgy/Gollum,

I’ve been a fence sitter for a few years now, just like you. But I just decided to get off the fence.

What about you?

[Meditator]

None is 100% pure , free of 5 passions and its arms to claim He is a perfect satsangi or a human being. The four vows are the cure to become as much pure so that we may get release from the body bags of different shapes and auras every next life we are forced to enter with great inconvenience and pain.

To analyze a perfect Master's acts in this World is a part of the spiritual process for the newcomers that He has come here for. Also the doubt's may well arise if some nuisance gets highlighted in public at large which somehow connects to the Master.

Its a normal thing to know more and clear doubts then sit in meditation with weight on heads.

When He is a perfect Master for those who know Him then how we imperfect can defend Him for some deeds which He is privy to and He knows the reasons and the truth.

To me none is lower than other or better than rest except for the chosen He initiated for the time being. Rest of the World is simply on wsuting list. May be this life or a few more to salvation for the initiated.

As of now for the time being those of us who are having inner access are way better than others despite any infirmities or deformities in their lives , poor or rich, Indian or westerner, intellectual or duffer or else ways, losers or gainers.

[S]

To me none is lower than other or better than rest except for the chosen He initiated for the time being. Rest of the World is simply on wsuting list. May be this life or a few more to salvation for the initiated.

As of now for the time being those of us who are having inner access are way better than others despite any infirmities or deformities in their lives , poor or rich, Indian or westerner, intellectual or duffer or else ways, losers or gainers.

Posted by: Meditator | June 27, 2020 at 10:49 AM

There’s absolutely no such thing as “chosen ones”. If you learn anything about spirituality, at least know that.

The premise that “God” chooses is the great fall of all faiths.

[manoj]

Anami
I just threw up...thanks

What I aload of clap trap. Like a brainless turkey waiting to be eaten at Christmas, that was the most pathetic rs cult sales tactics I've seen for sometime. Does GSD pay you a fixed salary from the millions hes frauded of his Nephew's or a robbed piece of Land from the poor farmers? Whatever it is you should be disgusted with your parasitic disgraced Cult and Fraud Of a Baba. Shame on You.

[S]

This was the straw that broke the camel’s back:

If the day you are born and the day you die are predestined then what about murders and suicides?? Is it predestined that some one murders or drives someone to kill themself? Is it predestined that one kills themself? Or would they have died of some other cause on that day if they hadn’t killed themselves? Same question for murder—if that person hadn’t been murdered then would they have died in a car accident or something on “that day”? What about the time and the hour and the minute someone dies? Is that predestined too?

This is so stupid. I guess it really is easier for people who constantly repeat some brainwashing mantra over and over again in their minds so that they can buy into their false belief system as opposed to actually using their minds. When people are brainwashed they no longer have control over their minds. They’ve literally lost their minds.

[anami]

Hey, Uchit and manoj.

You're free to your own thoughts on RS in general and GSD in particular.

What do you recommend instead?

Uchit said, "Doesn't life teach you the lessons by itself , so you learn your own life experiences," but he contradicts himself with references to the supernatural--demons, possession, Satan, etc. That's Bible talk, not life experience! Who poured that into his head?

[Dungeness]

@ I guess it really is easier for people who constantly repeat some brainwashing
@ mantra over and over again in their minds so that they can buy into their false
@ belief system as opposed to actually using their minds.

I think the brainwashing mantra just distracts the mind a bit so
you can be see what the monkey's up to. It's the essence of
mindfulness.

As for deciding to commit suicide, mindfulness could help trace
the chain of decisions that was its genesis. You could see if the
mystic vision is correct that all events were created in a timeless
moment. We then play them out in a choreographed sequence
in time-space including the thoughts themselves.

I'm not qualified to comment further. It's reasonable to me though
that, trapped in time-space, we can't envision anything outside of
it. The monkey is too distracting.

[Sonia]

The only fraud is you. So don’t point fingers ever again.

You broke your vows , your commitments to your wife and you’ve back-stabbed your own guru.

Judas.
Posted by: Georgy Porgy | June 26, 2020 at 09:35 AM

Georgy,

I’m gonna be really direct with you and leave out my usual sarcastic, aggressively passive-aggressive melodrama. So here it is—you clearly relate with the guru so closely that you either see yourself as the guru or you are the guru. I don’t really believe the latter but had to put It in there as a slim possibility.

But it’s really and truly bizarre, a-typical, not standard, highly unusual, abnormal, uncommon, odd, different, strange, peculiar, rare, marked, notable, mind boggling (yikes, the melodramonster got out) that you take every insult to GSD so incredibly personally and defend him and RSSB dogma tooth and nail while you remain utterly inconsistent regarding the details of your own life aside from your claim that you’re not an initiate.

[S]

As for deciding to commit suicide, mindfulness could help trace
the chain of decisions that was its genesis. You could see if the
mystic vision is correct that all events were created in a timeless
moment. We then play them out in a choreographed sequence
in time-space including the thoughts themselves.

I'm not qualified to comment further. It's reasonable to me though
that, trapped in time-space, we can't envision anything outside of
it. The monkey is too distracting.

Posted by: Dungeness | June 27, 2020 at 09:07 PM

Yes, but to say that suicide is the worst sin a human being could commit (as GSD said in 010) is to say that one is predestined to commit sins. Also, it’s like saying that a person can slaughter a million people but if another person leads an average life not committing any crimes against humanity but takes their own life that that person is somehow more evil.

It’s truly bizarre thinking. I mean you can read countless NDE’s (near death experiences for anyone who doesn’t know) of people who attempted suicide and you’ll find so many who describe an experience of indescribable love and a voice or message that their life is very precious and that they are very loved. So, can we just please stop making up stuff to defend the archaic old school Sant Mat ideas? I mean didn’t at least one of the RSSB Master’s wives attempt suicide and one of the Masters sons actually committed suicide. I can’t remember which Master it was...

Plus, Great Master’s wife was so miserable that she asked him if she could die and he said she had her grandson’s funeral to attend (Charan) and she didn’t care. She just wanted to die. So he told her to go ask her Master and she told him she had and that her Master told her to ask her husband. ANYWAY (what a bizarre story now that I think about it) she died.

And then there’s the address to the Sangat that GSD gave just after Charan died. GSD said that his Master didn’t have to die but that he chose to die. Look it up. It’s one of the few things he said that was actually recorded in writing. So, Charan said I’ve had enough I’m leaving. And that was that. I guess he decided to take his own life, so to speak, and move on.

It’s a strange phenomenon. There are people who learn how to die without physically injuring themselves. They do it using the same psychic type powers that Satsangis use to die while living except they do it with the intention of not returning and they succeed. I read a story about a woman who studied these people and the practice they use because she wanted to die. She practiced every day for a year and eventually had a near death experience where “Jesus” showed her that her life on earth had a purpose.

I’ll have to find the articles about the people who do this—killing themselves psychically. It’s weird.