RSSB says don't directly quote the Master. So naturally I did.

Today someone sent me this hot-off-the-press notice from Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), a religious organization based in India that I belonged to for 35 years before I saw the churchless light.

It decrees that even though videos of the RSSB guru are now online, directly quoting Gurinder Singh Dhillon isn't permitted.

Only paraphrasing of what the guru said is allowed. And for some inexplicable reason, the notice isn't supposed to be shared with all devotees of RSSB, only those who have some official capacity in the organization.

Well, after reading this I had two heretical thoughts: (1) I've got to share this notice on my blog so anyone who wants to can read it; and (2) I'm going to quote Dhillon directly. Ah, the pleasure of defying ridiculously rigid religious rules!

So here's the notice.

And here's a You Tube video of a Q&A session with the guru.

My transcript of the first question and answer follows. I did my best to make it as accurate as possible. One word was unclear to me, so it has a question mark associated with it. After the transcript I'll share follow-up questions that deserve to be asked of the guru.

QUESTION: Hazur, I have read that we have to live in master's will. And in bigger incidents like death, serious health, we all say that it is master's will and we accept it. But in our day to day life, small things don't allow us to accept his will. And there's a lot of confusion regarding that.

GURU'S ANSWER: First we have to divide it into two portions. One is on the spiritual aspect and the other is on the administrative side. So on the spiritual there should be no question. On the administration I don't think anybody creates that kind of a focus where he looks deep into everything.  

And that is why all of you are there as HODs [?] as sevadars, to look into it, to give the different perspectives. So definitely somebody could have a better perspective, and something could be more in tune to what the sangat needs. So sometimes in a hurry you overlook so many things. 

So in day to day life, in administrative things, you should use your own discrimination. Give your suggestions, and at the ending of the day if he takes a decision, then you follow that. This is why right from the beginning I have said in spirituality there is no question, and in administration you are most free to give your suggestions.

And where the spiritual aspect is concerned, also you see, learning to stay in his will means understanding his will first. If you don't know what his will is, how will you be able to stay in his will?

So it also is reaching that level of consciousness that we understand what his will is. Today everything for us is our perspective. We are searching in the dark as to what we think his will is. So again, only an elevated soul will know what that real will is and to be able to stay in that.

For modern people like us, we are all sort of searching in the dark trying to understand the why and when of this creation, why has this happened to us, why has this happened to somebody else.

These are some of the questions that came to mind about how Gurinder Singh Dhillon answered the woman:

(1) By "his will," do you mean God's will or the guru's will? Sounds like the guru is speaking about God's will, but this isn't crystal clear. If somehow the guru is talking about his own will, wouldn't it be easy for the guru to simply describe what that will consists of? Regardless, RSSB considers the guru to be God in human form, so I'm assuming God's will and the guru's will are one and the same.

(2) Since it appears that God's will is being talked about, why is God referred to as a "he"? Does God have XY chromosomes? Does God have a penis? Inquiring minds want to know. 

(3) How can anyone be sure that God exists? That's a prerequisite for God having a will.

(4) Assuming God exists (a huge assumption), where's the evidence that God has a will that humans are supposed to understand? This presupposes free will, since apparently we're supposed to choose to search for God's will, find it, and then remain in it.

(5) Every religion has a different idea of what God wants people to do. The guru says that only an "elevated soul" can know what the real will is. So why are there so many differing views of what God's will is? And how can someone recognize an elevated soul who supposedly knows for sure what God's will is?

(6) Is the guru claiming that he is an elevated soul who knows God's will? This is unclear, since he says "we are all searching in the dark" as to what that will is. Does this include the guru?

(7) And why should anyone care what God's will is? If God doesn't exist, obviously there's no such thing as God's will. And if God does exist, isn't the notion of God having a will regarding what people do horribly anthropomorphic? The guru's answer makes it sound like God is a bizarre ruler who demands that their subjects figure out what the ruler wants instead of the ruler making this clear directly.

Comments

[Georgy Porgy]

Tried posting this but didn’t appear, not sure why as I didn’t attack anyone, but lemme try again, since it gives one explanation of why I suspect the guru doesn’t want to be ‘quoted’.

————-

I’d say the universe is God and ‘natural laws’ are the mind of God.

And that God is:

(a) ‘supernatural’ if the universe is ‘acausal’ or ‘immortal’, since nothing else that we know of in nature has either ability;

(b) ‘unfathomable’ and work in ways we will never fully understand. Dawkins talks about a God of the gaps - those who equate the unknowable with god. God would almost certainly be unknowable such is the complexity of the universe. 99.999999% of God is likely to be unknowable or uncomprehendible to a bunch of hairless apes who’ve just come down from the trees and existed for an eye blink of time. The only parts of God’s mind we will ever understand using our limited intellect is likely to be the low-hanging fruit. It would be illogical for it to be any other way. Then there are scientists who for the last 70 years have proclaimed they’re on the verge of the grand ‘unified theory of everything’. Get real.

(c) omnipotent and all powerful. All the energy that we know of is in the universe. So God is all powerful.

(d) omnipresent as far as we know space-time and various field exists everywhere throughout the universe. Don’t the atheist Buddhists (oxymoron) on this site argue that all things are connected?

(e) omniscient and knows all. God created us and we are sentient beings with a consciousness so the universe is conscious. God has many different forms of consciousness. Human beings don’t know what it feels like to be an aardvark. In such a large universe, it seems very likely that there are other forms of consciousness and intelligence that dwarf our own, so that we are the equivalent of ants to them, and they gods to us. What is definitely unknoable from a scientific or intellectual viewpoint is whether there is an ever deeper more profound consciousness or god-awareness or Tao or shabd or Buddha nature or soul that pervades all.

So yes I can easily imagine God having many of the abilities that religions have already imagined, and I suspect God has many other qualities that we have not even begun to, and cannot ever, imagine (if Sagan and Feynman were right).

There may be different ways of understanding the mind of God:

- Science may be one way, based on an ‘objective’ approach (using material, rational, and logical aspects of our own mind).

- Spirituality may be another way, based on a ‘subjective’ approach (using meditative, emotive, and intuitive/artistic aspects of our own mind).

Both ways may be limited.

Scientific textbooks and holy scriptures, and their associated professors and priests, are hugely influenced by their own generational biases (i.e. of a certain time / era). A reader at a later period should interpret them as such. Anyone applying an overly literal or skewed interpretation to the Bible or Koran is an idiot or a fundamentalist. These ancient books were written in a different time and place. They are not the word of god, but very rough approximations as written by flawed individuals with their own personal and generational biases.

Individuals have biases (most subconscious). I suspect there are many satsangis and exes who’ve completely distorted the teachings of the rssb guru either knowingly or unknowingly. They listened to him for decades and yet didn’t hear a word.

I suspect, this is why a living master is needed, and also why they tell you to ignore the rssb books, because they are often incorrect approximates of the teaching. For example, there is a constant reference to the guru as GIHF by both believers and exes. This is just outright nonsense. The guru has repeatedly said he is not the master, and that the shabd is the true master. Despite his teachings to the contrary, ppl continue to make a god out of him.

And yet there is a reason for the enduring popularity of these holy scriptures. If nothing else, the best are works of art, of great poetry and allegory, that come closest to resonating mostly deeply with us in describing the indescribable mind of god, and of putting into words the transcendental experience of union with God. Some might be more receptive to these books than others, perhaps if brought up in a more contemplative culture.

I personally used to think the Bible was compete bullshit, but there are undoubtedly extremely powerful poetic passages to it, or at least the King James Version. But I think the Bible actually becomes quite profound if many of its passages are interpreted from a ‘mystical’ perspective. This is what Huxley was hinting at in his ‘perennial philosophy’, and what James thinks is core to all religions.

[Sonia]

I’ve done a ton of research and RSSB is literally (and I mean literally) the most ORGANIZED religion (spiritual group) in the world.

[Dungeness]

@ HODs ?

My seat-of-pants intuition tells me it's administration-ese
for "Heads of Dept's". From time to time those favored
HOD's need to pick up deeper wisdom from the boss.
Then they can sally forth to bring love, direction, and
yes, occasionally, a little firmness to underlings in their
charge. (the proper technique to wrest a cellphone
from an errant brother/sister comes to mind)

Either that or it's a therapy group for other types of
HOD's (those "High On Drama" maybe?)

[Sonia]

So, the Masters’ only job is to connect us to the Shabd (because our souls weren’t already connected to the Shabd???).

I was raised Southern Baptist in a very large and beautiful church with all the “Big Church” amenities. Then I started dating someone when I was 18 who’s parents were Jehovah’s Witnesses. My boyfriend (who later I married) is atheist and never much into any sort of spirituality but we went to the Kingdom Hall (that’s what they call it) because his core group of friends were fringe JW’s—only in it because of their parents, and his parents pretty much bribed him.

Anyway, I was into it at first. I just liked how organized and modest they were. I was looking for something completely different. Wasn’t necessarily looking for that but I liked the friends I’d made so why not. Got disfellowshipped after just 6 months. 😂 😂 😂 Then I worked to get reinstated and after I was finally “back in” I left but retained my “good standing”. Anyway, then I started doing psychedelics. Not a good idea after you’ve just been through a disfellowshipping of any kind.

After that metaphysical studies, then the Psychic Church (don’t ask), then Unitarian and Unity Churches with a little Shambala meditation thrown in. Then Sant Mat. You know, the natural progression of things. Pretty standard path to enlightenment. 🙄

Of course, I didn’t realize mental health issues like depression and anxiety (and God forbid anything more serious) were so looked down upon by RSSB. If I had know that I would have never joined. RSSB has to be the least sympathetic organization in the world towards “mental illness”. Maybe they’re still superstitious about it. I don’t know.

I’ll quote GSD directly, “You don’t want to know what I think about people with mental illness”.

Ohhhhh, yes I do!

[Neon]

Ahh they tryna pull a sneaky on us regular "sangat" ;) Also what the hell does that even mean "not to quote directly"??

[Sonia]

Actually, the very fact that they discriminate against people who are born blind is mind boggling. So what RSSB has always been saying is that anyone born blind is rejected by God.

And I remember the poor schizophrenic young man who got up and asked GSD why he was rejected for initiation because he was diagnosed with schizophrenia (rules Lady Gaga out of becoming a Satsangi but she’s not she’s got her own “truly humanitarian” foundation anyway). After the man’s 5th rejection for initiation from GSD, the young man committed suicide.

I guess it’s people like him that GSD was referring to when he said so glibly, “You don’t want to know what I think about people with mental illness.”

[anami]

Look at it this way. If you can't quote someone, you can't MISquote them either. Think of all the fake Dalai Lama quotes on the internet.

Sant Mat v. 2.0??? Sant Mat v. 3.0??? You guys had me going, I must admit, but it's obvious from the first ten minutes of Q&A 002 that Baba Ji hasn't changed the teachings.

[Joe]

Just want to write I have a major psychiatric disorder(clinical depression) and not only was I initiated by Charan Singh I was allowed to visit the Dera even after I informed them of my condition. At no time did I ever feel discriminated against of like a 2nd class citizen and I have returned several times.

[Jesse]

I think RSSB just invents random weird rituals and restrictions to make people feel like they're being guided in some way and that something real is happening.

Traditional religions have hundreds of years of theological refinement, effective symbolic rituals and morality that's at least formulated in a logical sounding way. Many of these religions that have popped up in the last 500 years or so, including Protestantism with their bibliolatry, don't have anything but a dude and some poems. Nothing they've said or done, and none of the poetry ever gets scrutinized.

Compared to the rigorous studies of Islamic law, or whatever Christianity and non-mangod versions of Hinduism's philosophical foundations are called, RSSB, Sikhism, SaiBaba bhakti etc etc etc are like poor quality children's coloring books. There's just not much there.

So instead of edifying and deep works of art, philosophy, worship and culture, all you get is braindead vegetable minded Q&A about motorcycles with Juggi "Always Wrong" Vasudev, or regulations on quoting the PharmaKing of Punjab as a substitute. These cults are jokes being played on us.

Join a traditional religion if you want something real. Visit a Shaman, go to a Catholic Church, become a wannabe intellectual Islamic philosopher like Sheikh Hamza Yusuf. Do anything but get sucked into modern Indic man-worship cults. They're stupid and boring and they don't have any real claims on mysticism. I'd argue that far more profound mysticism is found in traditional religion than in modern cults.

[j]

Questioner: Are you saying you have actual powers that make you the most evolved spiritual person in the world? And that only you can guide me to the True God?
RSSB Guru: No, the real guru is the shabd.
Questioner: Then who are you? What is your role?
RSSB Guru: I am merely doing the work that my guru dumped on me.
Questioner: I feel that your answer begs the question. Do you have actual powers of a guru or not?
RSSB Guru: Everyone who wants to find God needs a Spiritual Master to guide them on the Path.
Questioner: Okay, well, are you saying you're such a Spiritual Master?
RSSB Guru: The real spiritual masters is the shabd. People who wish to find God need to take initiation from a competent Spiritual Master.
Questioner: So you're saying that if I take this initiation from you, you'll guide me on the inner planes and back to God?
RSSB Guru: Not necessarily. First of all, only marked souls are eligible for initiation. If you're not a marked soul whose karma it is to be initiated, I can not accept you.
Questioner: You're saying you have the spiritual powers to determine who is favored by God to return to God?
RSSB Guru: I do not say that. It is everyone's karma as to whether they are fit to be initiated. Karma is everything.
Questioner: Let me try another question. Are you saying that initiation by you is necessary to return to God?
RSSB Guru: RSSB teaches that all religions teach the very same spiritual truths. I am claiming nothing special. In fact, you'll see spiritual quotes on the RSSB website from Mother Teresa and Iggy Pop. And notice the statue of the Buddha right behind me. We are merely a philosophical organization, not a religion.
Questioner: I see. Then which sant mat guru today is your spiritual equal? Rajinder Singh perhaps?
RSSB Guru: Please do not ask me to give my opinion on any mystics or their teachings.
Questioner: Huh? I thought you just said that all religions are the same, and that "karma" (our efforts) are everything in the journey back to God.
RSSB Guru: No, the teachings of Sant Mat require that one be initiated by a genuine guru.
Questioner: OK then, who is a genuine guru? Can you name one?
RSSB Guru: Yes, Charan Singh ji Maharaj.
Questioner: OK fine. But can you name any genuine gurus outside of your own line of spiritual masters?
RSSB Guru: All saints and mystics teach the same spiritual truths.
Questioner: Fine, then just name one who you'd certify as being as authentic as yourself.
RSSB Guru: You see, we must all make our own spiritual search to choose an authentic guru.
Questioner: But doesn't the RSSB website strongly imply that you are one of these authentic gurus?
RSSB Guru: I am merely the leader of the RSSB organization, and it is not a role of my own choosing. RSSB is a philosophical organization, not a religion. I make no claims for myself.
Questioner: But by accepting the role of Perfect Master, aren't you implicitly making the public claim that you indeed are a Perfect Master?
RSSB Guru: You see, the real Master is the shabd.
Questioner: OK. How about teaching me this technique of getting the shabd?
RSSB Guru: Oh, I could teach the mere technique, but real contact with the shabd requires initiation from a Perfect Master, otherwise the special mantras will have no power whatsoever.
Questioner: Alright, fine, I'll take this initiation then. Will you initiate me now?
RSSB Guru: Now (much laughter). No, you need to get sponsored by an RSSB member and follow 3 vows for a year. Then, maybe I'll initiate you once the paperwork is complete. Bear in mind that once you receive initiation you must accept me as your spiritual master -- a "Godman" in fact -- for the rest of your life.
Questioner: Excuse me reverend sir, but I don't think so.
RSSB Guru: Too bad for you then. There is no other way back to God.
Questioner: But I thought you just said? Nevermind.

[Sonia]

Just want to write I have a major psychiatric disorder(clinical depression) and not only was I initiated by Charan Singh I was allowed to visit the Dera even after I informed them of my condition. At no time did I ever feel discriminated against of like a 2nd class citizen and I have returned several times.

Posted by: Joe | May 30, 2020 at 09:45 AM

Well, Charan displayed true compassion. Gurinder is a monster.

[Spence Tepper]

"But in our day to day life, small things don't allow us to accept his will. And there's a lot of confusion regarding that."

Why not? You accept as God's will what you can't change. You release it, you jettison your attachment to it. You prevent it from taking up precious space in this tiny mind. You give it away. You don't accept the package. You don't waste your time.

But why say it's God's will? You can just say it's out of your hands. It's fate. If that's actually true. And not your bullshit excuse for mental or physical laziness.

You only can say, and believe, it's God's will if you see that everything is. And you say that because you're focused on faith, on believing in God in all things. You choose to believe it by faith, not knowledge. But faith that knowledge is there if you take some time to look for it. Faith that puts God's will superior to yours. Faith that pushes you to ask for help, insight to understand honestly what the right thing to do is, what is actually happening. What people are really saying, and the strength to accept this, and to do without excuses what needs to be done to help all.

Faith in God enough to listen with an open mind for His final say before you act. His final say that might be coming through the words of our friends, our boss or our conscience.

Faith enough not to react, but to believe there is a higher way to understand this and a better way to act for the good of all, but it might take a little time to discover that. It might take submitting this to God in prayer or meditation. Faith in the past when that insight and strength came up through you as unexpected gifts handed to you when you took the time to consider the truth might be different than your thinking, and you put your effort out by submitting this.

These are mental practices driven by passion for God that clear up confusion. They rewrite thinking. You re-wire by stopping and letting that higher power in you do the wiring. Submission. No need for confusion. Contemplation on what is around you, and within you. Practiced, disciplined submission is the mental work of gaining insight and erasing confusion.

[manoj]

When you have no Quotes, no Books and no Satsangs, only then can you never be held accountable for anything. Gurinder Dhillion has lived a lie to all and himself, and still does. But its beginning to catch up with him now. Finally Exposed as a charlatan baba, India's finest.

[Uchit]

The RSSB cult is nothing but a copy of portions of sikhism, the bhagavad geta, christianity that is manipulated to support only a living master and agenda of the cult. But looking out the box What has Gurinder Singh Dillon added as his own stamp, his own experience and insight? Then I ask why are millions drawn to this Charlton?

[Uchit]

So you are not allowed to quote to so called SANT SAT GURU, is this so he can't be called out on all his contradictions. For example he famously says " to ruin a mans life give him a million dollars" yet he him self is a billionaire baba, not forgetting a con artist. Total hypocrisy,!!!!!!

[manoj]

The Devil is the King of Liars, beware of the Devils path. Gurinder is an agent of Kaal the 5 names at initiation are that of Kaal (devil) the first "JOYT NIRANJAN " means the light of Kaal.
What you repeat is what you become a part of and he takes your soul with him to Hell. Remember the saying" The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Beware of Gurinder and his Satanic Cult!

[Uchit]

Does GURINDER SINGH DHILLON know the will of god given that his focus is totally on materialism. He owns or has associations with over 16 shell companies that has siphoned billions from his very own blood nephews .So I ask does this so called god on earth know the will of god??? I say judging by his actions he has zero contact with god and not on that level of consciousness. So if hes not on that level of consciousness, what is he? He is a total fraudster

[Western ignorance]

Sant Mat v. 2.0??? Sant Mat v. 3.0??? You guys had me going, I must admit, but it's obvious from the first ten minutes of Q&A 002 that Baba Ji hasn't changed the teachings.

Posted by: anami | May 30, 2020 at 06:57 AM

Better late than never. Most non Indians in here just hallucinate about / make up some santmatb 2.0 or stuff which Babaji says which contradicts / deviates earlier utterances.

[Western ignorance is amusing]

Actually, the very fact that they discriminate against people who are born blind is mind boggling. So what RSSB has always been saying is that anyone born blind is rejected by God.

Posted by: Sonia | May 30, 2020 at 06:28 AM

Thunderous and wonderous western ignorance

[Sonia]

Thunderous and wonderous western ignorance

Posted by: Western ignorance is amusing | June 13, 2020 at 11:15 AM

I know you’re baiting me but I’ll take it.

So, why is Western ignorance so I’m using?

Oh, I just realized something. It’s interactions like these that give birth to racist thoughts.

As a matter of fact, I think I’m getting sick and tired of being called a Westerner. You Dera types act like “Westerners” are inherently less spiritually adept than Indians. See. People are always looking for a way to feel superior.

One must be balanced and on guard at all times.

[S]

Which is worse; being born blind or being born with no arms or legs or being born as a conjoined twin that cannot be surgically separated. I assume they wouldn’t be allowed initiation either.

I bet there’s actually a long list of people who aren’t eligible for initiation.

[S]

I think reasonable spiritual teachers move away from the more superstitious teachings of the past in favor of human evolvement.

For example, Great Master said that the fetus prayed to the Lord for release the entire 9 months it hung upside down in its mother’s womb as if the baby were in a stressed state.

The fact is babies don’t hang upside down 9 months. They only turn face down the month before they’re born. So, clearly that was just a tale to illustrate something. It had no basis is medical science. I’m not sure what the point of that story was other than to get people to appreciate their need for spirituality. 🤷‍♀️

[S]

A fetus doesn’t hang upside down for 9 months. How do we know the soul enters after 3 months of pregnancy and not at conception? How do we know that being born blind means you have committed an “unforgivable sin”. What do we take literally and what do we take as a story?