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May 02, 2020

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I’ve actually been discussing this exact point with my RSSB relatives for years!

What benefit is there to society of them participating in “seva” at their local RSSB Centre where they’re aimlessly wandering around the car park or tea’ing up for the other sevadaars?

Surely, it would be significantly more worthwhile to provide this “seva” at a local food bank or hospital?

Their isn’t a rational answer for this conundrum, just more examples of the illogical nature of the RSSB set-up

Nice post.
I did several years sewa in a hospital in my neighbourhood.
That was because I learned doing sewa in Dera .
So everything became sewa do it for others and I enjoyed that imensely.
It is joyfull do things for others making them happy.
Now I do sewa for myself happily also..
Cleaning my house and make my little garden nice and also for little animals.
Also planted seeds for more flowers for bees

A similar action has been taken by Baba Gurinder. The Satsang Centers have been converted to Seva Centers and there would be no satsang gatherings till this year end.

This week GS was on a four day tour to Rajasthan, where over 150,000 lunch packs are prepared and distributed through the local authorities to the needy public due to Covid.

Surprisingly, the financial needs are met by the local administration without any funds from Beas, on the contrary the seva funds coming directly in the seva boxes, as usual, are being transferred to Beas.

We're seeing seva expressed wonderfully during the coronavirus crisis. Medical personnel, grocery clerks, cleaners, delivery truck drivers, and so many others are doing their jobs with steadfast dedication."

Such a romantic view. No, they're doing these jobs to pay their mortgages and feed their families. Nothing new or remarkable about it. The little people are doing the very same jobs they were doing before the Wuhan virus. The only difference is that many of these people -- including doctors -- are now out of work because of the dictates of the public health "experts," politicians, and elite citizens who are finding this tragedy perversely entertaining.

I read this from one of my favorite blogs—Jennifer Hadley’s. I don’t read her blog on a daily basis but I should. She’s always positive. Today’s blog was about how the constant search for information clutters the mind.

But relevant to seva, this is what she posted yesterday:

“Thinking someone owes you a thank you, or recognition or even any small amount of appreciation is giving to get. Let it GO and open up the FLOW.”

Naturally when we serve others we do get something back and that’s good. It comes in many different forms because we’re all connected (as much as my ego would like to believe otherwise). I had an epiphany a little while ago that we have to be careful what we devote our time to and what we give our attention to. Negative thoughts and words literally create sickness—both mental and physical. Helping others does just the opposite. Serving others helps keep our ego in check which naturally makes us happier and healthier people. I know from experience. We all know from experience.

When I engage in an argument with someone I feel sick immediately. I’ve been blessed/cursed with instant karma. It’s true—I feel the effects of every negative thing I do or say immediately. That’s just how the stars are aligned for me. I guess that’s a good thing... but it’s kind of annoying. Maybe not everyone reacts to a negative situation that quickly but it catches up to all of us sooner or later.

The cool thing is, there are hundreds of ways to help and serve others even if you aren’t able to leave your home.

J,

The same job during a time of crisis isn't the same job, particularly if there is a greater possibility
of getting the virus.

I realize you think the reaction to this virus is overblown.

But whether that is correct or not, the fact remains that those doing their jobs are doing so in
light of perceived risk. That is commendable.

I know Hadley’s blog wouldn’t appeal to most of the people here because it has a certain spiritual/non scientific bent to it, but it helps me keep my damned ego in check. And that reminds me to focus on helping others, not just myself. Admittedly, I can be pretty self-centered. And as one of my favorite musicians, Billie Eilish likes to say, “duh”. She’s just 18. She cracks me up.

RSSB followers do seva for a whole different reason.

They are caught up in the notion that seva to the guru is necessary for their spiritual progress.
hence they cannot do seva elsewhere because it doesn't qualify as seva to their guru.

their primary objective is only fulfilled if its seva to the guru.

plus they enjoy the company of other people who share the same beliefs. it validates them.

i recently came across Ranjit singh dhardianwale, a sikh 'baba' who has turned into the opposite. sikhism too has "babas", people that are considered advanced and sikhs go to them hoping they will fulfil their desires. Those babas play along and benefit from peoples ignorance.

well Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale has changed sides. He now tell people the truth.

"There is no God, sitting in the skies" he says.

Rather, God is everywhere, and is your own true nature. You are God or at least a part of Him, just like a wave is a part of the ocean, or more accurately, it is the ocean.

naturally such a message doesnt sit well with some sikhs, so there was an attempt on his life in 2016, and he only survived because they killed his associate by mistake, thinking they had killed him.

they still make death threats now.

he has been officially banned from giving talks in the UK, Germany and a few other countries.

but he doesn't care.

he continues to preach his message that science is the way forward. He says its time to realise that we have been duped by those who benefit financially from our ignorance.

he says doing "paath" means nothing. instead get right understanding.

He uses gurbani to show people that the purpose was to free them from rituals, not create more.

He says there is only the ONE, so nobody dies or is born because its all the play of the ONE.

part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPHbTrb4xJ4

part2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qER1QHGaCrw

the above are brief videos with english subtitles in key places, showing his message.

He now says that the gurus are fleecing you because of your ignorance.

He admits he was one of them, but now he shows them that the gurbani actually has a different message.

the message is that you are responsible for the life and world you have created. don't pray to some God because there is nobody there to hear your prayers.

pretty radical transformation in his thinking.

not surprisingly, those who were gaining financially from ignorance of the masses want him dead.

Hi Osho,
What I see and hear from this ''Sikh Guru'',seems very good!!
No chaurasi..Just One with the ONE..a wave.....
I really like that..
That fear for chaurasi always botherd me..especially only the Sat Guru can help.
Lots of people ask for initiation out of fear for birth and dead all the time..
Not out of Love for God or how one will call the One..

I’ve listened to a few of his videos and his objective seems to be to set people free from the clutches of the gurus and Sikh preachers who advocate paath sand other rituals for money. He says the gurus were against the very things we are now doing.
Before it was the Brahmins who claimed to be the only ones who were capable of reading the scriptures
Now the Sikh preachers and baba s have taken their place.
You get a “paath” done for a fee thinking there is some spiritual benefit.
He has huge opposition because it’s affecting the money they make
Some of the Sikh leaders are openly making threats which is strange in a democracy.

"Some of the Sikh leaders are openly making threats which is strange in a democracy."

Osho, you already know, but basically everyone who becomes famous in Sikhism is murdered or at least someone tries to murder them. Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale isn't unique in that way. Mainstream Sikhism today is like the Taliban but a lot less competent and brave. Plus, India is most definitely not a democracy, though that's the word they use for their system. Democracy is dumb anyway, but that's another topic.

"his objective seems to be to set people free from the clutches of the gurus and Sikh preachers"

Free them from the clutches of everyone and everything but himself. The guy wears new silk outfits every single day and is likely worth tens of millions of dollars. What he says is meaningless as it doesn't align with what he does, which is be a standard rich baba telling people what they want to hear.

Dhadrianwale would be fine if, since he doesn't believe in standard British Sikhism anyway, he would just teach what he teaches with different clothes and rituals and cite different books. The same goes for RSSB. Even not being Sikh themselves they're choosing to use almost exclusively Sikh sources of texts and uniform which mainstream Sikhs,as spectacularly hypocritical as they are, find offensive. And as we know there is no concept of freedom of speech in those cultures. When you offend, you are considered a justifiable target of violence. These babas know what they're getting into when they choose their careers to suck money out of poor people in exchange for flimsy theological speeches.

Also, do you remember the old videos of Dhadrianwale giving satsangs, and when people would approach him to touch his feet he'd forcefully push their head down to his feet? Great guy. He seems like a psychopath tbh.

These baba cults are now popping up in Punjabi "christianity" too. You get all these guys calling themselves saints and reading from the bible, but just like the Sikh gurus themselves probably, and the various babas of this era, it's all about them and not the spiritual sounding words coming from their mouths. Luckily, christians don't slaughter heretics anymore, though I guess they might start again someday. Maybe they should. The west especially needs some masculinity injections.

Hi Jesse
I agree he definitely used to be like a baba and he openly admits it, but now he has changed sides.
One example is here
https://youtu.be/9tMleNg7xUY
At 46 mins in, he is saying that we have all been deceived. “Satguru is not something to see but to understand. “
He says true meaning is to understand the Satguru
He quotes from gurbani to validate his point
He says gyan is necessary
Not Bhakti

Osho then it's becomes more of advaita vedanta.(gyan)
My son is a gyani yogi on his way..
I think bhakt is also good,but not just for a person..
Just bhakti(devotional feelings)..not perse for someone or something..

Ohh wel just some thoughts..
It has also to do with caracter(s)

They are all inter related.
Let’s say you want to drive from LA to sanfrancisco.
First you need to figure out where you are and where San Francisco is. This is gyan. Then figure out the direction and the highways you will take. You work out your route. All this is gyan.
Then you get in your car and drive. Daydreaming will not do. You have a journey to undertake. This is the stage of karni, doing, where effort is needed. Unless you hire a driver, then you can meditate, enjoy the scenery, or day dream while the driver drives.
Gyan comes before karni.
No point in meditation unless you first understand clearly the objective

I know a lot of people in RSSB who have no idea what the F is going on in their spiritual path. They have no idea if they are coming or going or if there is nowhere to come or go to.
They might think they are on the path of devotion or Bhakti but then hear some negative press on their guru and denial is now the only way to maintain their devotion.
But denial is a psychological state of avoiding what’s right there. You only deny it because it’s inconvenient for you. In this case it negates all your years of Bhakti.

Then confusion sets in as the guru says “it is all one, I cannot come to collect you at death and there is no place to take you”

And you think “what happened to Sach Khand? Was it repossessed by the bank?”

Then you are told “there never was a Sach Khand. It’s not a place but a state of realisation that only the ONE is true and eternal, all else is maya”

Now the RSSB student is really confused. If he’s not trying to get to Sach Khand then why meditate?

“Meditation without any reason, just because your guru tells you” he is now told.

But he has never in his whole life done anything without reason. And why would he? Doing things without reason is the realm of the lunatic.

Now he wonders what path he is on. Is this Bhakti?

What kind of Bhakti? So now the disciple just gets busy in doing seva or gets busy at work so he can distract himself from the questions in his mind.

Now he can lay claim to being a Bhakti yogi. He can claim he just loves and doesn’t need to think. He can claim to be in a state of surrender.

It’s all delusion, but the devotee would rather die than face the truth.

Denial is a great way to avoid the truth.
No questions either because confused people don’t ask questions.

They are convinced that they have no questions, which is actually true, but not because they are devoted, but because they are confused.

They look at each person who questions the guru and think “what an idiot. Just surrender, dude, don’t question the guru”

Their satsang is now just a form of entertainment. And also occasional getting beat up by sevadars.

They cannot afford to think clearly because the answers they will get will show that they have wasted their whole life.

Better to stay in denial


Before I went off on a tangent and entered the state of flow, I was actually trying to make a point that all the paths are inter-related. First gyan to have correct understanding. Then walk on that path, which it karni.
Once you can see it’s all working out okay, you can let go and now you have surrendered.
Finally you realise there is no actual journey and nowhere to get to. The ego disappears and now there is nobody left to go on the spiritual journey.

What Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale is saying is that “Naam” is not some mystical light or sound, but rather the realisation of the gyan given in the gurbani. And guru is gyan not a person.
The Sikhs consider their Granth sahib to be guru. He agrees - but with one difference. The Granth sahib is to be read and understood not bowed down to and worshiped.

So when there is a funeral, marriage or time of celebration, Sikhs get a “paath” done and pay for a paathi to recite. Nobody listens and they can’t understand anyway because it’s spoken so fast and no explanation.

He is asking “whats the point?” How is this the path the gurus advocated?

The gurus were against this, yet now Sikhs are doing the same thing.

The gurus wrote the Granth sahib so future Sikhs would not get into pointless rituals. The teachings and the knowledge in the Granth is considered to be the guru, not the physical book.
Just as RSSB followers are told to obey the guru, rather than worship
the body.

"The gurus wrote the Granth sahib so future Sikhs would not get into pointless rituals"

This is one of the funniest things I've ever read. Aside from it being likely absolutely untrue, it would have been dumb of them to write these poems for that purpose because A- that's what literally everyone in their era and geography was doing already, and B- it's been a theme of Indian philosophy since a least 1000 years before these gurus era.

And if that was their point, then they utterly failed. Sikhism is more ritualistic than many other religions that don't specifically attempt to be anti ritual.

Rituals are better than philosophy anyway. Anti ritualism is a lack of value. All great religions have great symbolic rituals.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"I know a lot of people in RSSB who have no idea what the F is going on in their spiritual path. They have no idea if they are coming or going or if there is nowhere to come or go to."

This is a great place to be. We should all be in this place, honest with ourselves. Nothing to be ashamed of at all.

It's the person who claims to know what's going on with other people. Those folks, when they approach, have a firm grip on your wallet.

"This is a great place to be. We should all be in this place, honest with ourselves. Nothing to be ashamed of at all." - Spence Tepper

So I presume you mean that you have no idea what spiritual path you are on and what the purpose is and how you're going to get there. You have no idea how far you have reached or what progress means to you.

So that means you're just going along with no purpose and direction.

Let's say you did that in your job - you would likely get fired.

Let's say you do that with your health - most likely you are unhealthy.

Let's say you did that with your wealth - almost certainly - you will be poor.

perhaps you would care to explain how not knowing what is going on is a good place to be.

is this in general or only for a spiritual path?

Hi Osho
You wrote
"perhaps you would care to explain how not knowing what is going on is a good place to be."

It's vastly superior to pretending to know.

You wrote
"So that means you're just going along with no purpose and direction."

No, purpose is there and so is direction. Can't be helped. But I'm not trying to impose a purpose or direction. Discovery. That's very useful, even in business.

It's accepting things as they are, which is moving and unfolding. So, not pretending to know is a big step forward.

Hi Osho

Always interesting to read what you post. Another revisit regarding RSSB and its followers and the likelihood of general confusion, denial etc. Not surprising. It does seem the direction is now? more ‘advaitic’ and less ‘bhaktic’. Such things were pointed out when discussing some of the recent literature with Sonia (well, from my perspective).
I still think that integration of both head and heart are key for any realisation/awakening. So its about both understanding and surrendering.
So how about a new term to describe a one who represents this?…..
Let’s label them as a “GYAN-O-BHAKTA’ … : -)
Term could also mean:
‘The whole that results from an agglomeration of interacting microorganisms’ or ‘something that used to roam around in the Jurassic’.
Cheers

OK, with respects to you Mr. Brian Hines I thought this thread was well written.

It makes a good argument about growth beyond dera and satsang and in our practical dealings life. While at the same time imho, this thread also finally says something 'positive' or 'nice' about RSSB -particularly on seva (selfless service).

I didn't want to list too many things I remember on seva as I do feel your 'repurposed' view has some use, yet it is still kinda on a tangent if veiwed side by side with how your late spiritual teacher Charan Singh Ji taught.

I'll touch on one point and then back it up with a relevant quote:

In the RSSB version of sant mat seva is but a steppingstone. We are urged to do seva at dera, or threw satsang just for rehearsal. So that once we leave, we can better practice doing seva in harsher sittings like the ups and downs of daily life.

Here's my quote; "Whenever you serve or help ANYONE from a humanitarian point of view AND as a matter of duty, you ARE NOT adding to your own karma's. Rather, that will be an act of GREAT MERIT in the Sight of the Lord." -Charan Singh Ji Maharaj (Divine Light - letter 303)

@Tim
Hi Tim, nice to hear from you.

RSSB used to be a simple path. These were the steps to follow
1. Go to local satsang and get inspired
2. Apply for initiation
3. Get told to read 3 books and attend satsang
4. Finally after a few more years get initiated
5. Do some intense meditation in the hope of reaching Sach Khand
6. Give up due to lack of inner progress
7. Do seva instead
8. Work your way up the seva ladder
9. Become a treasurer, secretary or a speaker.
10. Realise it’s another trap and start meditation again

That was pretty much it. Nothing to get confused about.
Sach Khand was a place. It was the fifth region,
All the regions are listed and described together with the lord of each region.

The five names are the actual names of the lords of the regions.

That is how clear it was.

Then along comes GSD and he says it’s all a metaphor, which I agree with.

But the sangat doesn’t as evidenced by their reaction when I have had my now infamous “discussions” with Him on the mic.

I have never been disrespectful towards him but I have debated the issue. On the whole we agree. There is only the ONE and all else is illusion.

The only point of departure is meditation. I say it’s pointless because no practice can get you there. He says it’s essential.

This has now been cleared up when I have listened to RSD (Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale) hereafter abbreviated to RSD for brevity.

RSD quotes the gurbani “RAM RAM sab koi kahen” everyone says “god, god”
But by saying it He doesn’t come.

By the grace of guru Ram or God will reside in your mind then you will get the result of God Realisation.

What it means according to RSD is that when you understand (gyan) that there is only ONE
(Sab Gobind hai, sab Gobind hai, Gobind bin nahin koi) which means “all is God, besides God there is nothing”

then you cannot avoid the truth that there is no separate”You”

Once this dawns on you, you disappear, because it becomes obvious that “I” is a made up construct that you invented and made real. You got so used to the idea of a “me” that now you cannot drop the idea.
Drop the notion of a separate “you” and there is only the ocean and no waves.

The two videos I referred to state this clearly

https://youtu.be/rPHbTrb4xJ4
And
https://youtu.be/qER1QHGaCrw

The true meaning of NAAM now becomes GYAN
And “repeat NAAM” now becomes to listen to the words until they sink in

It then becomes dhunatmik Naam meaning it’s no longer just words

More later,
It’s 2:51 am now, going to meditate on sleeping

“ It's vastly superior to pretending to know.”

I am not comparing “not knowing” to
“Pretending to know” but to “knowing”

I am in London and want to drive to Scotland. Not knowing is not a good place to be.
Knowing is best.

I go to google maps and work out how to get there. I now know and can follow the route.
How is that better than not knowing.

Not knowing means I am lost and will never arrive.

In RSSB terms what is your destination and how will you get there

Hi Brian ji
You wrote
"Plus, I've pretty much discarded the "selfless" part. I really have no idea if my edging the grass and blowing off the carport was selfless or not. "

Clue number one. If you find yourself diligently edging your neighbor's lawn because they love it clean and trim, when they are away and can't see you doing it, and it is so unimportant to you that your thoughts are on other, happier, inner stuff at the time, and by the time you walk back to your shed and drop off the tools you've forgotten what you just did.

Clue number two. When your neighbor stops by and asks you if you trimmed their lawn while they were away, and you say, in all honesty, " Gee it looks great. No, I that wasn't me. "

@spence
Saying “it wasn’t me” when it was, is a pretence. It is fake.
Just say “yes, I did it”
But don’t make a big deal of it.
You did it because you enjoyed doing it.

Not because it was a good thing to do.

Lying is fake humility. Behind it is the thought “ I am so great that I even lied about doing it so I have definitely overcome the ego now”

Ego has re-entered through the back door.

Pretending to forget is ego. If you really forgot then you have a memory problem.
If you pretend to forget you have an ego problem.

What’s wrong with simply saying you did it and you enjoyed doing it.

If you didn’t enjoy doing it then it’s best not to do it anyway.

I used to be a speaker for RSSB because I enjoyed it. I didn’t do many talks because then it would have become a struggle. Just enough to enjoy.

I didn’t do it for some credit, or good karma nor did I consider it service. I did it for me. So in Birmingham when half the sangat came to the front to thank me saying it inspired them, it made no difference to me because the talk I had prepared was still on the paper. The talk they heard wasn’t mine, it just happened by itself.

So when the same talk was used to ban me from being a speaker - that too made no difference. In fact I made it easy for them because I said was going abroad soon anyways.
I didn’t care about continuing to give talks.

"The five names are the actual names of the lords of the regions.

That is how clear it was.

Then along comes GSD and he says it’s all a metaphor, which I agree with.

But the sangat doesn’t as evidenced by their reaction when I have had my now infamous “discussions” with Him on the mic.

I have never been disrespectful towards him but I have debated the issue. On the whole we agree. There is only the ONE and all else is illusion.

The only point of departure is meditation."

Posted by: Osho Robbins | May 07, 2020 at 06:54 PM

Respected sir, the old teachings carry numerous perspectives on the teachings. From Seth Shiv Dayal Singh, to Baba Jaimal Singh, to Hazur Sawan Singh, to Sardar Bahadur Jagat Singh, to Maharaj Charan Singh and to Baba Gurinder Singh.

All giving different spiritual perspectives on the same subject matter; Sant Mat (The Way of the Saints - True Saints).

You know, there were many stories or metaphors on the spiritual journey. It is almost impossible to say which stories were true, and which ones were parabolic.

One thing that is the same on the teachings is the fact that we can speed up the journey, or retard it as we like.

By not meditating only retards spiritual development. I know what Baba Ji says sounds like the journey from pind, to ash, trikuti, par brahm, maha sunn, bhanwar gupha, then sach khand is different.

As I've only heard him say "Why worry about say par brahm? We are going all the way!"

That statement is only to convey that he wants us to reach what's in sach khand asap.

So you just may be missing his coaching attitude and thinking there's some contradiction in the many perspectives give by the Teachers.

In Maharaj Charan Singh's Divine Light letter 292 he speaks on speeding up spiritual progress: "The journey that we can finish in the human form takes centuries in the astral form, in order to complete it. So it is better that we finish our course during our lifetime. Give as much time to Bhajan (meditation) as you can and be most regular. Regularity in Bhajan is essential for progress. One day's break retards our progress, so never miss Bhajan even for a single day."

@Osho

This part that you wrote cracked me up over my morning coffee:

🤣🤣🤣

RSSB used to be a simple path. These were the steps to follow
1. Go to local satsang and get inspired
2. Apply for initiation
3. Get told to read 3 books and attend satsang
4. Finally after a few more years get initiated
5. Do some intense meditation in the hope of reaching Sach Khand
6. Give up due to lack of inner progress
7. Do seva instead
8. Work your way up the seva ladder
9. Become a treasurer, secretary or a speaker.
10. Realise it’s another trap and start meditation again

Hi Osho
When you drive a car to Scotland it requires that you have a car and the experience and ability to drive.

Years ago there were child seats that had little steering wheels. In the middle of the toy plastic steering wheel was a big red plastic button squeeze toy horn. Toddlers could pretend they were driving the car, and whenever the car slowed down they could squeeze their tiny horn.

Have at it, until you are done.

@sonia
Glad you enjoyed it.
Cracks me up too.

@soence
Any path one takes in life first has to be understood clearly before you can take the first steps

Hi Osho

You wrote
"Any path one takes in life first has to be understood clearly before you can take the first steps"

No, that is wrong. In fact it's impossible. If you understand it clearly, you've already taken it, and that path is behind you, not ahead of you. And talking about the Path is then living in the past. It's just talking about the Past, not the Path.

What you are discussing is the Plan you yourself invent. Creating something new. For that you create a general plan. Or you follow someone else's recipe. Or some combination. A Plan is a mental construct. The Journey is something else. No one knows that. They live it. Once it's lived, it's on the past, not the future. At that point it is obsolete and out of date.

To live In date is to learn, to discover, not to pontificate. Not to make pronouncements about other people. When you are walking your path that is a full time job dealing with your own experience.

When you discover your Inner Master, whomever He /She/It is, then you will understand that they are your true teacher, and life is your classroom, and you are the student, not the teacher.

A True Saint can help you understand. But they never call themselves 'Teacher'. No one can replace your inner Master.

Hi Osho
In the business world inflexible plans become the formula for failure.

Holding dogmatically to a pre-conceived plan, pushing employees to comply and dismissing their honest reports of reality is a formula for failure. Bad bosses make excuses, cut corners, all to get their numbers looking good while ignoring the facts of what is actually happening. Reality, moment by moment, and learning from it, that is the best assurance of success. Most plans become obsolete in minutes. It is the team's ability to adapt, and adjust, with a boss who does the same, that assures successful progress towards any goal, and even that goal becomes clearer and generally never ends up as it started. Either we aren't going to make it, and that's where we should be, or something came up that we can leverage into faster and greater success than we expected. But that only happens when you happily toss out the road map when facts prove otherwise.

. So when an employee says "this doesn't fit the plan. This reality has changed and the plan is now obsolete," the effective executive smiles and says, "now we are moving forward! This is a new opportunity!"

The fact this doesn't happen in Religion just speaks volumes to the distance religion is from reality. Religion is like a terrible boss, always blaming the employees for the boss's stupidity. When you get other employees who agree and support such a stupid boss and a stupid organization, shaming the employee for honestly reporting their experience, attempting to make the employee wrong for their experience, you have Religion, and most mediocre companies.

Hi Osho
Sometimes you have to lose everything before you are willing to let go of your old self - serving, false and harmful notions.

For years the biggest impediment to telemedicine were doctors claiming it was poor quality when in fact it wasn't. And this meant sick and disabled patients had to spend the majority of their day to get themselves to and from the doctor's office if they wanted any care. Because of course doctors visiting you at home was too costly for them, and limited patient access. Doctors promoted legislation against the use of telemedicine for years. And even though it has become part of medical care, only doctors owned by insurance companies specifically to use telemedicine would use it. Most doctors rejected it because it was less profitable to them, but under the excuse it was poor care.

But now, as a result of COVID-19, most physician practices across the globe have witnessed near fatal drops in revenue as patients have cancelled appointments in fear of infection. Some of those practices are now out of business.

And now, suprise, suprise, we see physicians willing to adopt Telemedicine, which offers safer, easier and broader access to patients.

The five year plans have all failed, and this has been the only way to finally open the door and align physician interests with safer patient care and better patient access to care with the simple use of technology.

So, in short, screw the Plans, screw the Paths. Embrace reality. It's less harmful and more helpful.

@ Osho
No..., it is not always ''understood clearly''before one can take the first steps..
One can understand more and more on the way..
Things can be quit different being longer on the path.

"Religion is like a terrible boss, always blaming the employees for the boss's stupidity."

Good one, Spence!

And as Morpheus said, “Neo, sooner or later you’re going to realize, just as I did, that there’s a difference between knowing the path and walking the path.”

spence, you are using the strawman illogical fallacy.

my position was not that plans are set in concrete and cannot change.

yet that is the position you are arguing against.

The discussion was about RSSB and the observation that GSD has changed the teachings. As a consequence of that change, many followers are confused.

the main changes are:
1. There is only the ONE. "Paltu ikoi ik hai"
2. No guru comes at death to collect your soul.
3. There is nowhere to take it.
4. Sach Khand is not a place.
5. There is no journey since you are already there.
6. You no longer strive to reach Sach Khand.
7. instead its about realization.
8. the purpose of meditation now becomes to tire the mind
9. there are no inner stars, moon or sun.
10. There is no separate soul.
11. There is no heaven or hell.
12. There is no,karma, or reincarnation. (cant be if there is no individual soul)
13. nobody is born and nobody dies.

gurbani says exactly the above when understood correctly.
"nobody is born or dies"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPHbTrb4xJ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qER1QHGaCrw

these new teachings are radically different from the old ones.

some followers simply deny the changes

others accept them but justify them by saying its the same teaching upgraded for todays times.

others say this has always been the teaching.

that is why i said there is confusion.

I am just listening to the Uk prime minister speaking about when the U.K. will ease the lockdown.
He says “we have a plan and a roadmap”
I am saying RSSB followers no longer have a plan or a roadmap because they are confused

"when an employee says "this doesn't fit the plan. This reality has changed and the plan is now obsolete," the effective executive smiles and says, "now we are moving forward! This is a new opportunity!""

Not when it's some doofus employee who doesn't know what he's talking about and always expresses unneeded, and wrong opinions about everything.

But go ahead. Continue fantasizing.

"gurbani says"

For someone who talks about logical fallacies, why do you repeatedly appeal to authority instead of making logical arguments?

Nobody cares about "gurbani" or what it says, or what it means "when understood correctly" which is simply just another appeal to authority. If you don't have a time machine to go ask the Sikh gurus exactly what they mean, you probably shouldn't say what they "really" meant. Especially since all you've done is replaced RSSB interpretation with some other baba's views that you will post a YouTube link to.

Make a point for once in your life instead of listing your religious beliefs and obscuring them with weird stories that aren't even remotely rational.

Hi Osho
It's good to be confused if the result is your own effort to discover the truth of these things.

In that sense all people are confused. And being honest about it is very healthy.

But not all who wander are lost. We are growing and discovering for ourselves.

That's the point of the path, to practice seeing reality better. Meditation is very helpful for that.

Your list is obsolete. It's what you heard long ago amended with what you thought you heard a little while ago. Both have no value.

You need not spend time trying up prove either old or new list to anyone, even yourself. They are all old and obsolete.

Value is seeing for yourself more clearly with each day. As we progress through life we have discoveries. And then we turn corners and see new things we could never have known before. Doors do open up all the time in our life journey. Fixing our beliefs to a list of statements, old or very old, is living in the past. Let it go. Turn and look forward. You will make better progress and bump into fewer walls.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"Not when it's some doofus employee who doesn't know what he's talking about and always expresses unneeded, and wrong opinions about everything."

W. Edwards Deeming tried to teach participative management to the executives of American Automobile manufacturers in the sixties. But they thought the way you do. Waste of time.

The Japanese embraced and furthered Demming's teachings about statistical process control in the hands of front line workers. They began what they called Quality Circles. Toyota became famously successful using his methodology. And today the island if Japan, which just import is raw materials, is the largest Manufacturer of cars and in the world. And the best built. And today Detroit is a burned out wasteland.

Can you at least try to move your thinking from the sixties to the eighties?

"And today Detroit is a burned out wasteland."

Because of violent race riots that created one of the largest and most rapid human migrations in human history. WTF are you even talking about?

Japanese are literally famous for not allowing low level employees to express their amazingly wrong opinions. You can read thousand upon thousands of reports from teachers and businessmen from USA and Europe going to Japan and trying to force this "hey you're a nobody, please give me your uneducated opinion about things" mindset on Japanese students and how uncomfortable it makes Japanese people. You're confirming your bias about some system that plays out in reality very differently than how you imagine it.

And I'd rather live in the 60's than with my head stuck in my ass. Comparing Japan to Detroit lol good one man.

@jesse
what i wrote was
"gurbani says exactly the above when understood correctly.
"nobody is born or dies""

this is not an appeal to authority to validate my point.

I am simply stating that gurbani is in agreement with the new sant mat.

Jesse
You appear entirely ignorant of Japanese culture and participative management which is part of that culture. Your notions of Japan are woefully wrong. It's called Kaisen... Learn first, then engage mouth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaizen

As for Detroit, a little thing called mass unemployment because of bad management did that.

"I am simply stating that gurbani is in agreement with the new sant mat."

Not according to most Sikhs and popular, mainstream Sikh theology. Which authority am I to believe about the REAL meaning of these old sometimes contradictory, often convoluted mystical poems? Half of gurbani is written in purposefully vague grammar that doesn't even include tense. Maybe that's why 1000 people read gurbani, and you get about 700 different opinions. Take for instance the famous Nanak line about eating meat and how everything is flesh or whatever. If it's so clear, how can it be used by Sikhs to both define law against eating meat, and as an encouragement to eat meat by other sects? Clearly written words can't be interpreted with that much ambiguity. And that's not some high level mystical oneness concept or anything else.

It's the same with all religious books. Sorry, but I'm not gonna take your word as truth, or the word of any other of the trillion babas whose "worship me" videos are on youtube. Nor am I gonna listen to scholars who disagree with most of your lot, and with themselves also.

I'll go with "there's nothing there." It's a book full of random poems from random poets of the bhakti traditions and you can (and do) make any meaning you want out of the poems.

@ The main changes are:
@ 1. There is only the ONE. "Paltu ikoi ik hai"
@ 2. No guru comes at death to collect your soul.
@ 3. There is nowhere to take it.
@ 4. Sach Khand is not a place.
@ 5. There is no journey since you are already there.
@ ...

Modern mystics clarify this for us. Take #2 for instance. The
outward guru is a prop. The prop is a bedtime story for a
child who needs reassurance in the form of a teddy bear.

The real guru is inside you and can't be seen initially. When
love and discipline is perfected, the child turns his gaze firmly
on the inside guru who will appear at death. The little hand
can relax its grip on the teddy bear.

The real guru is inside. He's there... already in Sach Khand
which isn't a place by the way, only a level of awareness.
The journey is metaphoric.

( I think further discussion should reincarnate over on
Open Thread though)

Hi Brian
My parents are big devotees of SKRM (Sawan Kirpal Ruhani Mission). My dad who preaches the SKRM satsang almost daily at the residence of satasangis . At times he even do triple satsangs in a day. He is a senior citizen now. When we ask him , what makes him so strong mentally and physically to perform the teachings of Human Gods, he says it is the spiritual power which he has gained over 35 years of initiation. He gets up 4 O clock in the morning and do meditation for almost 2 hours. According to him this seva is given to him by the order of Master so he cant stop it. He will keep doing it his last breath. I also initiated almost 17 years back but I hardly attend satsangs or do meditation. I feel like why those five mantras can get you to Light and sound of God. Why only devotees of these cults can gain access to SACHKHAND and why not non satsangis. I got initiated as my parents were after my life for becoming a satsangi like them.

I am also of the belief that SEVA can be performed any where also. Why you need to travel to Deras for Seva? MY parents got initiated some 35 years ago. My father never saw the miracles in this life even after doing meditation for 35 years except one incidence which happend some 6 yeras ago when his car lost control and fell into a under the construction big drain in Ludhiana. Luckly all the passengers came out safely except some minor injuries. This made their devotion more towards the master.

I am jobless for few years. Not able to find a suitable job. According to my father this is curse by the Guru Sh. Rajinder Singh ji as I always talked negative about him. I did seva as Zonal Financial coordinator for few months last year. Soon seeing my disinterest in the satsangs , I was removed by the head of the finance department. I questioned the utilization of huge donations which they receive from the public. Yes , I felt dogmas there as the other finance team members felt that I question about the funds that belongs to Master only. He has the power to make rags into riches and vice versa.

Sorry my English is not at par with the other bloggers as I studied in Govt. run schools .

At times I also feel the chain of schools run by SKRM where only kids of riches find a seat.(Though not sure if poor kids ever find a seat there) I wanted to share more but restricting this post now for the time being.

Regards
Deepak

Well I would like to differ with you guys on the matter of doing sewa. As an initiate of RSSB and having attended satsangs and question answer sessions regularly I can vouch for a fact that the concept of sewa is some what different from what it's being discussed here.

1. Sewa is meant to decrease your ego, bring in more humility, to make you experience selflessness and expect nothing in return for your deeds. Sewa is just a way to show love for almighty.

2. Sewa can be anything...like studying, giving alms, household chores, feeding the needy, even doing your own job provided it's done only for His (God/Allah/Almighty/ or whatever xyz name you want to give) love.

3. In December 2019 question answer session in Delhi, a man asked Babaji that is it necessary for him to come to his nearby RSSB centre for sewa ?? Babaji (GSD) replied that it's not at all necessary and even this thought is wrong. He said that even cleaning the road or garden in front of his house is sewa if done out of love for God.

4. Even doing simran or meditation is also a form of sewa, if done not for it's results but as a means of love to God only then the so called 'spiritual advancement' occurs. Case in point: story of Vishwamitra to become brahmarishi.

So please do not put out references out context and add your own interpretation to them to completely change their meaning.
Regards

A fellow human

Seva, means selfless service. When this is done right it is suppose to create humility in a person. But the RSSB cult leaders , Gurinder singh dhillan, GSD, has distorted it to use people to expand the RSSB empire for free. What a brilliant plan, to use people with there own self will and promises of a place in heaven. This is a powerful way to manipulate peoples actions into what essentially is slavery where the cult gains everything and the sangat get nothing. Shame on you RSSB cult and GSD your actions are equivalent to muslims being promised 40 virgins for committing a jihad .

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