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April 14, 2020

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Obviously science is no better than religion since it has done nothing to stop people from dying. Even after trillions of dollars being pumped into various scientific studies and endless energy being pumped into cures and technologies, our life expectancy has not only stopped increasing, but by some estimates it has decreased in recent years.

Also, science is a method distrust, not trust. Trusting science makes no sense. We should always doubt what scientists say. And we should especially distrust any so-called science that declares an old person dying is proof of anything. His death doesn't even rise to the level of anecdotal evidence. It's just an old person dying, just like old people have died since the beginning of time.

More important than any of this is the philosophical questions that we need to ask. What are we doing with our lives here? If this guy says God is bigger than a disease, you could just as easily say that life is more important than clutching to a non-existent safety from a seemingly exaggerated pandemic that we're all supposed to become shut-ins because of. Whether your religion is science or Jesus, you lose by believing in this trashy tabloid-tier fear mongering.

In the coming economic depression, there will still be religion. But science? Probably not. And it's the unfounded faith in the myths of science itself that is causing the problems. I'm guessing this man went to a hospital who had no more ability to help him or the other 100,000 dead than books of supposed revelations from deities.

By the way, speaking of religion and Covid-19, did anyone see that Rabbi Avi Berkowitz who works for the CDC foundation did an interview on CNN I believe, and behind him he prominently placed a picture of THE rabbi Menachem Schneerson who was basically considered God by Chabad Lubovitch, an organization who believe that “the soul of the Jew is different than the soul of the non-Jew."

The rabbi Schneerson himself has said "the body of a Jewish person is of a totally different quality from the body of [members] of all nations of the world … The difference in the inner quality between Jews and non-Jews is “so great that the bodies should be considered as completely different species” and that "An even greater difference exists in regard to the soul. Two contrary types of soul exist, a non-Jewish soul comes from three satanic spheres, while the Jewish soul stems from holiness.”

He's also stated that “The entire creation [of a non-Jew] exists only for the sake of the Jews.” So we only exist to serve Jews according to the proclaimed messiah of the most powerful Jewish organization on earth who happen to be leading the fundraising of a congress approved "foundation" for the CDC, and have members in Trump's family, one of whom is Jared Kushner who happens to be in charge of the response to Covid-19. Nothing suspicious at all.

Can we trust that people who believe we're all a separate species of satanic slaves to have our best interests in mind? Probably not. But nobody in the media is talking about this stuff (I wonder why) but instead tell us some 90 year old pastor defying a law is what's important.

sorry, but science has improved our lives in many ways.

1. Dentistry.
2. No more polio
3. Heart surgeons
4. Lessening of measles, helping those with AIDS....

the list goes on and on.....

Science is infinitely more helpful than religious dogmas that never improve or change.

Yes, there are downsides..... but as Steven Pinker from Harvard has pointed out..... living today is
better than yesterday.....

unless, of course, we miss leeches, blood letting, and living only to 45.

I wonder how many people would trust in the God of their faith to save them from an oncoming train? How many wouldn’t take shelter from a tornado or hurricane because God was going to save them?

How many people would willingly stroll through a violent gang neighborhood at night believing their god will protect them?

Why are they all making this particular issue about God?

"but as Steven Pinker from Harvard has pointed out..... living today is
better than yesterday....."

This is a personal value statement, not anything "scientific." And Stephen Pinker is a moron. Modern man drools and mumbles "Science says life is better" as they stuff their face with hydrogenated oil, genetically modified wheat that gives the skin allergies and high fructose corn syrup so adverse to human digestion that you can feel the diabetes brewing in your blood with each sip. We die of self-inflicted disease and pop mouthfuls of xanax, adderal and alcohol to forget that our own children hate us and that at any moment the government could take them away from us for any reason they want and we'd be powerless to even resist because we're too fat to fight, and too docile from the television waves that sedate us more than the drugs.

I'll literally give you $1000 if you can find a definition of "better" that can be universally applied. Look around the world at so-called primitive people who've been fighting to keep godless science and "progress" away for them for hundreds of years now because they know it makes them weaker, less compassionate, and far more out of tune personally with the earth and the universe we live in. Do they agree that "science" is "better" or do you not care anyway? Science has been far more forcefully colonialist, destructive and oppressive than any religion ever was or could have ever dreamed of.

All the social and cultural losses that no scientist dare tally can never be regained by the faith of science which worships numbers and requires the oceans to become tanks of antidepressants just so that its adherents to live. We are the most mentally unhealthy people who've ever lived on this earth. Saying that we and our system are "better" is a profane sort of arrogance.

Kim Kardashian, her mentally diseased father/mother, her sociopathic confused husband, and her big fat giant synthetic ass meat are all the products of this cult of science and the proofs of what's "better" according to you.

Some would very much desire to live a vibrant and real life with pain and struggle rather than a sterile one where we all must sacrifice everything, including our families and sanity at this point, just so we can escape risk and danger at any cost. And the ironic thing is that it'll all come crashing down anyway and we'll be forced to confront all the painful realities we've been running from for hundreds of years as we cower under the magical umbrella of scientistry that will have no more power to save us than any deistic faith does.

Interesting post Jesse!!
Agreed!,we need all things more naturally..
And I mean really Naturally...!!
We NEED nature..........................................................!

He said he wasn't afraid to die. But he did not understand that it was not his role to infect the others of the congregation. He could have said, more truthfully, "I'm not afraid to die, and I'm not afraid to infect others and cause them to die. If you feel the same way, we'll see you Sunday!"

We don't know the other casualties yet from these gatherings.

We do know that this pastor was focused on himself, his own glory, and not God nor the protection of the flock entrusted to him.

People attached to Truth tend to go there. People attached to themselves or their job as teacher or leader, parent, boss, club member, tend to get wrapped up in that. But a job is just a job and no one should get lost in it. If a nurse dies for her patients, saving their lives, they glorify their nobility, the truth they live for. If a pastor dies infecting his congregation he brings shame to his work.

Steve Hagen in his book 'Why the World Doesn't Seem to Make Sense' quotes Tolstoy's summing up of the avoidance of reality:-

“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives.”

Exactly, ' . . . woven into the fabric of their lives!' That is undoubtedly why we have no choice but to continue to repeat and live the same old falsehoods. To accept the actualities of everyday life and experiences is a threat to our finely honed self/ego structure. So-called religious beliefs are the strongest of belief structures – some would rather die that question their beliefs.

Saying "Steven Pinker is a moron" indicates that we are not having a reasonable discussion.

Yes, we can disagree about details and about interpretations, but sinking down to ad hominem attacks
is precisely a dead-end.

So let's see what science has done that is positive:

Anaesthesia (1846) ...
Germ theory (1861) ...
Medical imaging (1895) ...
Penicillin (1928) ...
Organ transplants (1954) ...
Stem cell therapy (1970s) ...
Immunotherapy (1970s) ...

And this,
10 Health Advances That Changed the World
From vaccines to clean water, health advances have changed the world.
By
DAN CHILDS and SUSAN KANSAGRA, M.D.ABC News Medical Unit
September 20, 2007, 7:10 AM
9 min read
Sept. 20, 2007 — -- Whether it's the technology that allows us to peer deep into the body or medicines that extend the lives of those with chronic diseases, it's easy to see how advances in health and medicine have touched the lives of nearly every person on the planet.

Yet considering the ubiquitous nature of these developments, it is easy to see how many people take for granted the technologies and practices that, at one point or another, almost certainly saved their own lives or the lives of people they've loved.

The list below encompasses 10 advances in health and medical practices that have changed -- and in many ways continue to change -- the world today.

Vaccines
Throughout history, communicable diseases have had a tremendous impact on human history. So too, then, has the development of one of the most effective ways to defend against rampant viral infection -- vaccination.

Dr. Edward Jenner first introduced the idea of vaccinations in 1796, when he successfully prevented a young English boy from getting smallpox.

The concept of vaccination was propelled further by scientists such as Louis Pasteur, and in the modern era, when large groups of soldiers were successfully vaccinated in World War I and II against such diseases as tetanus, diphtheria and typhus.

"Polio vaccine is one that people think of because it had such an impact," said Dr. Jeffrey Baker, director of the history of medicine program at the Duke University School of Medicine.

But from the global health standpoint, Baker said Jenner's introduction of the smallpox vaccine may have had an even more significant impact in terms of lives saved.

Surgical Anesthetic and Antisepsis
Without a doubt, surgery used to be a much graver proposition than it is today. One of the chief reasons for this is that before the middle of the 19th century, anesthetic simply wasn't an option.

That changed Oct. 16, 1846, when William T.G. Morton demonstrated the mysterious wonder of ether -- a substance powerful enough to dull the pain and agony that had long been associated with surgery.

But while anesthetic was a great advance in and of itself, another advance that occurred at roughly the same time may have been even more beneficial -- antisepsis, or the creation of a sterile surgical environment.

"Anesthetic made it possible to operate on a patient without pain," Baker notes, "but without antisepsis they'd die anyway."

Clean Water and Improved Sanitation
Put them beside surgical advances and other cutting-edge technologies, and public health measures don't look so sexy. But the fact is that clean water and sanitation have likely saved millions -- perhaps billions -- of lives since they were widely implemented in the 19th and 20th centuries.

"It's something that's so important around the world and in America," Baker said. "It used to be that 15 percent of infants would die, and the biggest reason for this was diarrhea brought about by unclean water and milk."

Clean water and public health measures dramatically cut down the incidence of such deadly water-borne diseases as cholera and improved sanitation, drastically lowering the health impacts of parasitic infections and other health conditions related to the environment.

Antibiotics and Antivirals
As with vaccination, the advent of antibiotics hailed a new era in the treatment of communicable disease.

Interesting, then, that the concept of antibiotics may have been uncovered accidentally. In 1928, Sir Alexander Fleming left a petri dish of Staphylococci bacteria uncovered and later noted that the bacteria had been killed by a mold.

Upon further studying the mold, he discovered it was from a family called Penicillium notatum. Others soon saw the potential uses of what later came to be known as penicillin.

Today, antibiotics are used to treat a plethora of bacterial illnesses. And today, researchers are developing antivirals -- most notably, the AIDS-fighting antiviral AZT -- to deal with a host of viral illnesses as well.

The Birth Control Pill
Arguably, few developments have had as profound a social impact as the introduction of the birth control pill -- though its path to widespread use has been a rocky one.

Although the Federal Drug Administration approved contraception as safe in the early 1960s, it only became legal for married couples in 1965 and for unmarried couples in 1972.

But because of the Pill, countless women have been given control over their own fertility -- a concept that created a social revolution.

"Thinking about how it has transformed women's lives, in terms of family planning and the entry of women into the work force, its impact has been significant indeed," Baker said. "It was the first-ever lifestyle drug. It's not treating a disease, but it was making life better for women."

Improvements in Heart Surgery and Cardiac Care
Heart disease remains at the top of the list of the country's killers. Despite this, numerous important advances in its treatment have made a considerable impact, extending and improving the lives of its sufferers.

Not the least of these advancements is surgeons' ability to operate on and repair the heart -- without putting the patient at an unreasonable amount of risk.

"Maybe the breakthrough moment was the rise of the heart-lung bypass, which made it possible to operate on the heart for more than just a few minutes at a time," Baker said. "This was followed by coronary artery bypass grafting, which is, I believe, a most important procedure."

Randomized Controlled Trials
Another development largely unnoticed by the public at large, the advent of the randomized controlled trial -- what many refer to as the gold standard of medical research -- gave medical researchers an important tool in determining which treatments work, and which do not.

Randomized trials are conducted by dividing patient populations into two groups, where one group receives the intervention to be studied while the other does not. Examining the differences between groups in these types of trials has ushered in an era of evidence-based medicine that continues to guide clinical practice on a daily basis.

"I think this is huge," Baker said. "This is really what's changed how we deal with cancer and lots of other disease, too. In the future we'll look back at this as a huge step forward."

Radiologic Imaging
Before the development of radiologic imaging technologies, beginning with the use of the X-ray, doctors were usually relegated to looking only for external signs of injury or damage.

Today, the ability to peer inside the body and determine the cause, extent, or presence of disease has revolutionized the very way medicine operates and has saved countless lives in the process.

Much of the initial work surrounding the discovery of X-rays was done by Roentgen, a German physicist in the late 1800s. Initially, they were viewed as an invasion of privacy rather than a life-saving tool.

Its utility was soon realized, however, and many additional imaging technologies eventually followed.

"CT scans didn't come into the picture until the 1970s," Baker said, adding that this technology was brought to us by the company BMI -- the same BMI which had previously made a fortune off the British band known as the Beatles.

Advancements in Childbirth
Up until the middle of the 20th century in the United States, childbirth was considered to be the most feared part of a woman's life.

"Go into any old graveyard, and you always see a number of women who died in their 20s," Baker said. "That was in a large part due to childbirth."

With the advent of techniques in anesthesia, cesarean section, and forceps delivery, the chances of a successful have pregnancy improved, at least in developed countries. Unfortunately, many resource-poor societies around the world still lag behind in this arena.

Organ Transplantation
Few surgical interventions today carry as much complexity -- or as much ethical significance -- as organ transplantation.

"It's such a technically complex intervention that it's an amazing thing that it can even be done," Baker said. "It ties together both surgery and immunology."

The first successful transplant operation, which took place in 1954, removed a kidney from one donor and installed it in the body of his identical twin. Other organ transplants followed, including the first liver transplant in 1967 and the first heart transplant in 1968.

Today, there are more than 90,000 people awaiting a transplant in the United States alone -- a situation that also reveals the moral considerations that come entwined with such techniques.

"It represented an important turning point in the field of medical ethics," Baker said. "It really challenged physicians' ethic of 'first, do no harm.'"

What's Next?
Considering the progress that has been made in years past, it is tempting to view the state of health and medicine today as an endpoint.

"Medicine has made it possible to deal with many conditions," Baker said. "Our lives are longer. Still, we have to say in all honesty that our control over chronic diseases is somewhat mixed."

Additional research into how best to stave off these conditions -- even by delving into the secrets of the human genome -- could represent the next hopeful steps toward healthier, longer lives.

"In the future, I think we will begin to see more and more applications from genomic medicine, which will help us identify individuals at risk for chronic diseases and allow us to intervene earlier," Baker said.

"Yes, we can disagree about details and about interpretations, but sinking down to ad hominem attacks
is precisely a dead-end."

Why do people misuse that term so often? An Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. An insult is just an insult. I'm not making the claim that someone is wrong because of who they are. I'm just calling people names
because it's fun. Huge difference. Steve Pinker could be a moron and also be right, but he's not. He's a moron and he's often wrong. I'm a moron who is often correct.

And speaking of bad arguments, that supporting list doesn't even address what I said. Good job with that. Now upload the list about the extinction of thousands of species, deforestation that has killed immeasurable swaths of precious ecosystems, millions upon millions of people every year via previously non existent health problems etc etc etc.

Below is an interview with the NJ governor who makes extremely important decisions that impact humanity, and who also religiously believes in science, and coronavirus. First it's funny because he's so hysterical and all he does is repeat the talking points you'll hear every other believer repeat, and then you think "this is extremely dangerous" because you realize that none of the talking points relate to the questions he's being asked. Religion is a mindset that extends beyond the confines of temples and thought of deities.

And since we're bringing up fallacies, no, saying "OMG Tucker Carlson" is not an argument. Not that I care about logic or arguments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG7SglDjeOM

Saying someone is a moron isn't an argument and I don't think it is "fun".
I think it speaks volumes about engagement and actually thinking through what was written.

Again, the point was very clear and very simple. Science has given us some amazing benefits and
I would much rather live today than in year's past.

That is why I brought up vaccines, dentistry, and so-on.

No one is arguing that destroying forests on a massive scale is a good thing. That is not science, as such,
but the misuse of political power for capitalistic purposes.

But if you wish to devolve into non sequiturs then like the moron statement we are not having
a reasonable discussion.

I will put is simpler: was the polio vaccine helpful? has dentistry improved?

Yes, we shouldn't misuse science for political ends, but when it gives us positives then we should,
I suggest, applaud such.

I went to Trader Joe's the other day, which is now organized like a gulag in order to separate customers from each other. Somehow this scientific approach to saving lives forget or ignores the fact that each customer must get up close and personal with the cashier when paying for their goods.

Likewise, it's scientific to keep the liquor stores open for the sake of "protecting" the public's mental health. But some reason never explained by our minders, it's also scientific to ban worship services because social distancing is impossible at these venues?

Then we have the Grand Poobah of CV science, Dr. Fauci, who recently told us that even with the dire need to keep worshippers from congregating, press-the-flesh Tinder hookups are an acceptable risk.
https://nypost.com/2020/04/15/fauci-endorses-tinder-hookups-with-a-caveat/

There's also the minor detail that every scientific model that predicted the severity of the virus has been way off. But gaia forbid we lose faith in the next model they roll out.

Here's my own model -- if this lockdown continues much longer, we'll see a rise in civil disorder and suicides that even the NYT will take notice of.

"But gaia forbid we lose faith in the next model they roll out."

J, you're the only other person here who seems to have similar thoughts as myself. To me, there is nothing of scientific value in repeatedly failed predictions. The christian predictions of doomsday and the scienctism cult's prediction of 200 quadrillion dead in 3 months are both wrong, and both sides insist I believe in them despite how wrong they are by telling me "but it will be right next time. or the time after that" or they say "it didn't happen, but only because we prayed so hard/kept only the liquor stores open. TRUST US, man."

The covid believers cult even have anathematized heretics who are basically geniuses in their field being maligned and libeled against for daring to go against the church of the virus. Nobody's on the tv are telling us they're wrong even as they're demonstrably correct.

There was news yesterday of a man threatening to kill people for not wearing masks. Police are enforcing the belief with violence by attacking men on buses and whole foods shoppers. It's the corona crusades out here.

I'm choosing to abstain from this madness and blind belief.

J,

If you read exactly and in context what Fauci said, he was not advocating such "hookups" as an acceptable risk, especially when he advised being 6 feet apart and wearing a mask. Our beloved leader, Trump, doesn't even follow even that advice, especially when he was shaking hands just a few weeks ago.

Context is, of course, key.

Clearly, the economy needs to open up and perhaps we can learn a lot by washing our hands and being more cautious....

The good news, if we can call it that, is that there are less car accidents and deaths....

https://thehill.com/changing-america/resilience/smart-cities/490601-amid-coronavirus-lockdowns-traffic-accidents-in

It pains to know the deaths of the Pastor and likes who are great as believers but are poor in common sense. God weaved this physical creation embedding logics and reasoning in its physical structure. The logics and reasoning evolved as science for better and safe survival of our physical bodies and hence a catastrophe like Covid 19 can not differentiate between a God driven (who knows it) physical body and other again God driven ( who do not know) bodies. It's the consciousness which is beyond the reach of any invasion by the micro or macro organisms and is well protected inherently by the God Himself and is he image of God Himself.

Let's be disciplined, patient and supportive of each other. God will recognize our support and love for each other more than anything else.

Left out of the free for all that most of the media have over this story:

"Crawley defended her father’s decision to Cuomo, insisting that he took proper precautions during the late March service. “When he decided to have services, he was very clear in posting signs and having hand sanitizer, and wearing gloves and not congregating with people after service, during service,” Crawley said. “People were asked to sit six feet apart. Family members sat together. That’s it. After service, there was no talking and hanging around. Everyone left.”

https://www.theroot.com/virginia-bishop-dies-after-holding-service-amid-coronav-1842920869

In other words, there was nothing reckless about the Bishop's actions or his recommendations to his group. His church seems to have practiced greater safety precautions than even the typical Trader Joe's.

Meanwhile, the liquor stores are open for business and the media could care less. Better not mention God, liquor store owners!

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/yes-liquor-stores-are-essential-businesses/
Hell, yeah!

So buy some wine at the liquor store, some bread at Trader Joe's, and pray at home a couple of weeks for Chrissakes!

Hell, yeah!

So buy some wine at the liquor store, some bread at Trader Joe's, and pray at home a couple of weeks for Chrissakes!

Posted by: Cousin Zigzag | April 17, 2020 at 03:47 PM

I replied on Open Thread 31

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