Open Thread 31 (free speech for comments)

Here's a new Open Thread.

Remember, off-topic comments should go in an Open Thread. 

This hasn't been happening recently, as some commenters have been using blog posts as a "chat room," basically, so from now on I'm going to vow to do better at not approving comments submitted on a regular blog post if the comment doesn't deal with the subject of the post. 

If you don't see a recent comment, or comments, posted, it's because you've failed to follow the above rule. Keep to the subject of a blog post if you leave a comment on it. And if you want to use this blog as a "chat room," do that in an open thread.

As noted before, it's good to have comments in a regular blog post related to its subject, and it's also good to have a place where almost anything goes in regard to sharing ideas, feelings, experiences, and such. That place is an Open Thread.

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Remember that I'm moderating comments, so it could take a while for your comment to be published. Almost every comment submitted to an Open Thread will be approved. Personal attacks on someone are an exception. Argue with ideas, not insults.

Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. You can always find an Open Thread that way.

So if you're a believer in some form of religion, mysticism, or spirituality, this is where you can put your "praise God," "praise Guru," or "praise _______" comments.

Comments

[💥.💥.💥.💥.💥.💥.💥.]

Jim Sutherland

Yes, HE gives each of us what we need
to be , at highlight - HIM, .... His Guru, That One's Guru
just what we need and (actually) can survive

777

Zillions of alien spacies, Angels too, are begging for that 7th Chakra
and are powerless even while crossing our sun for fuel

[Sonia]

Zillions of alien spacies, Angels too, are begging for that 7th Chakra
and are powerless even while crossing our sun for fuel
Posted by: 💥.💥.💥.💥.💥.💥.💥. | April 12, 2020 at 03:07 PM

OMG, I was just thinking about aliens. LOL.

I've never believed in aliens even though I know several otherwise normal people who do. It's just never interested me. However, I came across the SETI.org site today and started to wonder...

I've had a few weird experiences but I dislike the idea of aliens so much (I guess because it just seems sooooooo illogical) that I have created some pretty rational explanations for those "encounters". It's funny, I'm not into aliens but totally believe in inner experiences. Of course, not much happens when I sit in meditation, but I sit anyway... like I'm supposed to. :)

I must say, I've been on my best behavior lately. I'm going to pat myself on the back now. LOL

[anami]

Hey, Jesse.

"It was from the daughter of was Lenard Wells from the page you linked."

Who should we believe, Lenard's daughter or the Milwaukee Medical Examiner and the Wisconsin Department of Health Services?
https://fox6now.com/2020/03/22/69-year-old-retired-milwaukee-police-officer-died-from-covid-19/
Choose your poison, I guess.

"...it doesn't explain much because more people had the same experience as you 2 years ago when many more people died from the flu."

That's tricky. Let's compare statistics.

First Covid-19. As I write, Worldometer shows 22,115 coronavirus deaths in the USA out of 560,433 cases.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Now the flu. You mentioned flu season two years ago. For the USA 2017-2018 season the CDC estimated 61,000 deaths out of 45,000,000 cases.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

A big difference is in death rates. Doing the math, two years ago the flu killed 1 out of every 738 cases in the USA. So far, Coronavirus has killed 1 out of 25 cases in the USA.

The deaths I know were in New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. NY and NJ alone account for almost half the US cases and deaths.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
I think that explains it. Coronavirus cases and deaths are more concentrated around me than the flu ever was; therefore, I'm more likely to have a social connection.

That brings us back to social distancing. Again, according to my math, we're seeing one coronavirus death out of every 25 infected in the US (4% death rate, based on the Worldometer numbers). If we had as many coronavirus cases in the US as cases of flu two years ago, 1.8 million would die. I'm surprised by 4%. Weeks ago, it was more like 2%. Let's say it turns out to be only 1%. That's 450,000 deaths and still 7 times more than the flu in our heavy 2017-2018 season.

Sweden is an interesting topic though, because as you once pointed out, it's business more or less as usual (with light restrictions and voluntary preventions against the spread). USA has 1,639 cases per 1 million population, Sweden has 1,038. USA has 67 deaths per million, Sweden has 89. Sweden has fewer cases per million but more deaths per million.

Sweden has had 10,483 cases total and 899 deaths. That's 1 death out of every 12 cases, twice as high as our 1 out of 25. Why more deaths per million and deaths per infection? It's possible that strong initial exposure makes it harder for the body to mount a defense. I read that Swedes like social distance to begin with, already embrace work from home, and the majority live in single households without children, so when cases crop up, they must be from prolonged interactions.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/06/how-does-the-coronavirus-behave-inside-a-patient

[💥.💥.💥]

@ Hi Sonia

There is no sharp edge between several states of consciousness
One can have (be aware) all 7 or 49 (theosophical ) at the same time.

Likewise The Sant Mat regions and their paraphernalia , conscious / unconscious, . .
you can take them as what was given for a certain life experience

If we, with simple understanding suddenly would see
certain new parts , we would fall totally crazy, insane and worse

So be careful with meditations without a guide/caretaker
who knows the environments
and authorised to give us initiation_infallible_space-suit

I wrote a comment about that long ago - don't try enter "sunna" the black is sticky there

777

[Sonia]

777,

I have a guide. Why would you think I don’t? I’m still initiated. ☺️

[Sonia]

777,

Although with my behavior over the past year He just might leave me at the astral realm with all the disembodied spirits. 😬😱😑☹️🥺

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia your guide is not a punisher. He is the most compassionate one you can come across (as much as you may thing otherwise). He always says we all need to learn from our mistakes and don’t make them again. Very simple.

[777]

@SONIA
LOOK FOREWARD SEEING U
AT THE ASTRAL NURSING

My Atzheimer thought you declared that
but there is to much of U to find that
Andrew initiated : from Satsang family haha. sounds like data-reset-ted

""" Of course, not much happens when I sit in meditation, but I sit anyway... like I'm supposed to. :). """"

Do the Ofc away plus all other thoughts
It might be helpful when Inner_Gurinder stroked
us when we had just a thought
:-)

777

[77(7)]

@Sonia

Question 4U
Do you remember how it felt : the first month
ever you felt a heavy Crush 4 someone
Did U think much?
No names here , just about the feel

77

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

You can comment, then click subscribe to comments and emails, and you’ll be in the loop.

Posted by: Jim Sutherland | April 12, 2020 at 08:30 AM

Already apart of the loop, brother.

[Jen]

"I dislike the idea of aliens so much (I guess because it just seems sooooooo illogical)"

Really? You think that this one tiny insignificant little planet called Earth is the only one thats populated? There are probably many more worlds with highly advanced and much more intelligent beings than what we are. They are probably just keeping an eye on us because humans are very unstable and aggressive and seem to love dropping bombs and going to war and killing each other. I think we took birth on this planet because we can learn such a lot and evolve into a much better being. I hope there is such a thing as reincarnation because it gives me the desire to do my best here in this lifetime and look forward to my next adventure on another more advanced world (wishful thinking I know).

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

He is the most compassionate one you can come across (as much as you may thing otherwise). He always says we all need to learn from our mistakes and don’t make them again. Very simple.

Posted by: Jen from Austin Texas | April 13, 2020 at 09:31 AM

This is very good post.
Something even I need remember. 🤔

[Someonedunit]

They're saying that nearly every hospital recorded death is being attributed to coronavirus which means that all other death statistics have decreased since pandemic kicked in.
This means that deaths related to all other ailments are not getting recognized as frequently as they were before the covid19 pandemic.

So statistics are actually blurred because medical records are being taken as mostly attributable to the virus and not to other issues.

How many flu deaths this last 3 months? Probably nil. Compared to how many flu deaths Jan - April 2019?

Another issue I have just seen as a non partisan outsider (non USA citizen) just witnessed Bernie Sanders endorsement of Joe Biden as opposition democratic candidate to contest upcoming election.

If Biden is the American democratic hope to lead USA in current climate of major catastrophic conditions and in the terse economic conditions prevalent, and conflict of interest with China and other major political powers worldwide. Then God help America (and the planet) because he don't have what it takes to cut it at the cutting edge of a world in upheaval and transition.

If there's going to be a war which is not out of possible result in this pressure predicament I don't think national and world economy rebooting or rebuilding is something Biden or ordinary people can deal with, it's going to take someone with far deeper resolve and grit and thick skin to handle whatever is coming down through the next decade under havoc and critical shifting of social reality.

Personally I think Trump is going to take the election possibly easier than he did previously.

[7 - worldly stuff]

Here is my two cents y to do away the Corona
I place it here because apart from Spence
more readers here work in hospitals

When I have a little infection in my throat
I open my mouth very wide and illuminate 2 seconds
With a 32 Watt water disinfecting UV lamp
At half a foot distance
Because the water bactery/virus killing lamp contains the worst
Frequencies, I cover my head with a towel, leaving
An opening where my mouth is

THE 100% RESULT IS FELT IN 5 MINUTES, EVEN TWO!

I thought if throats, traces, and upper lung parts
Perhaps more,
Could be treated , this virus &nd future families will be finished

[zenjen]

Everyone has their own personal power. Its not ego. We learn a lot in this life and in my 70's now I look back and am grateful that I became a satsangi and still following the main principles.
Forgot to change my name in previous comment.

Couple of Zen quotes, made me smile...

If at first you don’t succeed, skydiving is not for you.

Always remember that you’re unique, just like everyone else…

[Sonia]

@Sonia

Question 4U
Do you remember how it felt : the first month
ever you felt a heavy Crush 4 someone
Did U think much?
No names here , just about the feel

77
Posted by: 77(7) | April 13, 2020 at 01:06 PM

Yes 😊 It’s funny, if you think about it, every person you’ve ever had a crush on or thought you were in love with—all of those feelings were very different from each other. I guess that’s because when you put two people together (whatever the situation is) those two share a unique dynamic that can’t be replicated in any other way. I have an odd way of developing an “immunity” to people. I stay attached but don’t stay in love. First of all I’ve never been the type to fall in-love easily (Venus in Virgo). There’s only been one person in my life that I have the ability to fall in love with over and over again.

[Sonia]

Sonia your guide is not a punisher. He is the most compassionate one you can come across (as much as you may thing otherwise). He always says we all need to learn from our mistakes and don’t make them again. Very simple.

Posted by: Jen from Austin Texas | April 13, 2020 at 09:31 AM

I know... but I wouldn’t blame him for being really upset with me.

[Sonia]

If at first you don’t succeed, skydiving is not for you.

Posted by: zenjen | April 13, 2020 at 04:51 PM

🤣🤣🤣

I finally agreed to go skydiving once with a friend of mine who’s good friend was skydiving instructor. He was going to jump with me. However, she forgot to confirm with him so we didn’t go. And then on the date that we were originally supposed to go with him, his chute didn’t open. He died just after they got him to the hospital.

That convinced me that skydiving is not for me.

[Jesse]

"God help America (and the planet) because he don't have what it takes to cut it at the cutting edge of a world in upheaval and transition."

This is a major understatement.

Joe Biden barely knows his own name anymore or where he is at any given time. The guy creepily fondles children and smells their hair in public. He's been accused of sexual assault by far more trustworthy people than those who have been going after Trump for the past 4 years (which the "believe all women" media conveniently ignored until about a day ago). He has openly admitted on camera to the same kind of corruption that Donald Trump was accused of (which the media barely acknowledges). He has no consistent policies and exists as the human form of opportunism. His son is a literal crackhead.

Strong candidate! The child sniffing and crack smoking son are the two qualities that might resonate with voters the most since America has a pandemic of pedo crimes and drug abuse happening right now. Relatable.

I'll become a Christian is Biden or even Nipples Cuomo become president because there'll be no hope left for anything and everyone will want nothing but to be saved.

[Sonia]

@zenjen

I hear what your saying about aliens. Mathematically the odds are in favor that they do exist. I guess it’s always been a combo of childhood fear of Martians and grown up aversion to people who claim to have been abducted (they all seem a bit nuts). So, I’ve continued to rationalize that they don’t exist. But who knows... almost anything is possible.

[Sonia]

These are priceless. If you haven’t seen this movie you really should.

I ❤️ Huckabees
https://youtu.be/LkAaymR2u9A
https://youtu.be/fjqjWC3Ycr4

BTW, has anyone seen clips of Biden lately? The Democrats had 16 candidates and managed to pick the one with Dementia. (I’m not trying to be mean or insulting when I say that, it’s true. Look at the footage of him.)

I was really hoping we’d have a Democrat President elected in 2020 but that’s not gonna happen now...

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

One thing I’ve never understood is how everything stays green and the bougainvilleas are always in bloom at the Dera year round despite the weather. It’s lovely (and curious).

Posted by: Sonia | April 12, 2020 at 11:42 AM

That's because the department is headed by an extremely competent and dedicated Head.

Sd/-

[Sonia]

One last post... this popped up on my YouTube suggestion list. I was hesitant to watch it at first but really glad I did.

Thich Nhat Hanh interview.

https://youtu.be/NJ9UtuWfs3U

I love the part about Deep Listening. I love the perspective he has on it.

[Jesse]

I found what this doctor says interesting. Of course I'm not a doctor, an epidemiologist or anything but a random layperson who started as a skeptic, later believed wholeheartedly that this virus is uniquely contagious and deadly, and then reverted back to skepticism, so what I find interesting has no value at all.

And I'd never recommend anyone to be lax in their precautions,because it's possible that the most extreme predictions are correct, but some amount of skepticism seems healthy to me at this point. If some experts are disagreeing with others, I see no reason to go along with one side over the other, especially not because one argument is more popular. Popular opinions actually deserve to be scrutinized more heavily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qwiyxedC_o

[Trevor Smith]

Of course I'm not a doctor, an epidemiologist or anything but a random layperson who started as a skeptic,

Posted by: Jesse | April 13, 2020 at 10:51 PM

Doesn't matter right. Afterall aren't you the same who just a few days ago ( on April 11th to be precise) proclaimed the below

"I know everything. I'm the true inner master."

LoL

[Jesse]

Trevor, you're extremely intelligent. I'm so happy that you're giving your input here. The world needs you.

[Sonia]

@Jesse (this is the longest comment I’ve written in my entire life)

Oh. My. God.

Is this Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg actually trying to say that the novel corona virus pandemic is a conspiracy made by virologists who want prestige, political influence and funding for their research centers???

Whatever conspiracy you may have about SARS-CoV-2 it doesn’t benefit anyone in anyway. Usually with a conspiracy someone is secretly benefiting. Ask the Pentagon and they’ll say it’s benefiting the Chinese. If I had to go with a conspiracy theory I’d go with that one.

Also, Dr. Wodarg shows how coronaviruses have been monitored every year from 2005. The first SARS case was before that. This is a novel corona virus. Novel being the key word. What’s so unique about this virus is how quickly it spreads and the fact that you can be infected and asymptotic at the same time which is the primary reason it’s so infectious.

Without a quarantine or lockdown, one of Asia’s the leading epidemiologists estimated roughly 200 million people would die worldwide by the second wave.
https://youtu.be/Y7nZ4mw4mXw

Then there’s this guy—a leading virologist being interviewed on India Today. https://youtu.be/5Nw6SvIX2iI
(That’s an important video to watch.)

OK, so as I’m watching these clips and reading articles in order to respond to your statement I’m starting to see things a tad differently. 😂 😂 😂 But I still think the quarantine and lockdowns are critical. Unfortunately, the economic destruction will become our next health problem when people don’t have insurance because they’ve lost their jobs, quality of healthcare drops in this country because the government will be funding more Medicaid programs and private insurance companies (the monsters of healthcare) issue increased further restrictions to doctors and patients on what they are willing to cover. Oh, and the big one—when we run low on food available to grocery stores (corporate farmers are suffering devastating losses—huge fields of crops just being left to die because they can’t get it where in needs to be).

So, let’s assume we never had a lockdown and just let approximately 200 million people die and god knows how many get seriously ill. What impact would that have had on just the following:

a) Healthcare systems
b) Families
c) Economies

a) Healthcare systems
Because of the particularly infectious nature this novel coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2), without quarantine our hospital systems truly would have been completely overwhelmed. This is because the majority of people in the world have no inborn immunity to the family of coronaviruses AND especially the SARS family of coronaviruses which having a higher morbidity—they were identified in 2003. COVID-19 is like the first SARS-type coronavirus on steroids because of its unique ability to infect so many people so fast and furiously.

Read this:
https://journals.lww.com/pidj/fulltext/2005/11001/history_and_recent_advances_in_coronavirus.12.aspx

“Human coronaviruses, first characterized in the 1960s, are responsible for a substantial proportion of upper respiratory tract infections in children. Since 2003, at least 5 new human coronaviruses have been identified, including the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus, which caused significant morbidity and mortality. NL63, representing a group of newly identified group I coronaviruses that includes NL and the New Haven coronavirus, has been identified worldwide. These viruses are associated with both upper and lower respiratory tract disease and are likely common human pathogens. The global distribution of a newly identified group II coronavirus, HKU1, has not yet been established. Coronavirology has advanced significantly in the past few years. The SARS epidemic put the animal coronaviruses in the spotlight. The background and history relative to this important and expanding research area are reviewed here.” (to continue reading click link above)

Our healthcare systems are not currently overwhelmed as much as they would be if there hadn’t been a lockdown. But even WITH the lockdown just look at New York and Detroit. Disaster.

With the quarantine we have been able to “flatten the curve” which doesn’t necessarily mean dramatically less numbers, cases or deaths (we hope it does but no guarantee). However, it’s helping to keep most of our healthcare systems from turning into a Black Friday sale.

b) Families
So, if 60% of the world’s population got COVID-19 and an estimated 3.4% (3.4% according to WHO) of that 60% died, that would equal 160 million deaths around the world with just the “first wave”. By the second wave next fall/winter we could see an additional 60-80 million deaths.

Think about it. We live in a world of roughly 7.8 billion people. If we lost close to 200 million people in one year, how many families would that touch? That would mean, for every 39 people alive one person would die. Losing a parent, a child, a dear friend or a significant other is a devastating and irreplaceable loss. That is a grief that will continue for months and years.

c) Economies
So, here’s where we’re damned if we do, damned if we don’t. Some people think wanting to reopen the market is just so we can make the markets strong again. The truth is, if we go into a Great Depression (which we are inches from) then there will be extreme health consequences—especially for Americans. There’s so much to write about how an economic depression impacts people’s health in a major negative way that I really don’t know where to begin.

Then of course, there’s the fact that we live in an interdependent global economy. We all do. With borders closed, airlines grounded and travel restricted commercial and agricultural products cannot get distributed. It’s no longer about getting the latest consumer goods trends, it’s about getting what you NEED to have in order to get by each day. And the longer the economy is closed the more exponential the crisis grows. It’s much like the virus in that way. It’s a compounded problem.

In summary, this is really more like a natural disaster. It’s like one HUGE global natural disaster.

[zenjen]

Hi Sonia and other Churchless friends, here's a reminder in these difficult times to keep your spirits up.
Loved this song when I was young, those were the days !!

Bee Gees Stayin Alive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxvBPH4sArQ

[Sonia Taylor]

Loved this song when I was young, those were the days !!

Bee Gees Stayin Alive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxvBPH4sArQ
Posted by: zenjen | April 14, 2020 at 04:33 PM

@zenjen

Love it!! I loved The Bee Gees and ABBA when I was really young. Dancing Queen was my first favorite song (I was six).

Added to my Quarantine playlist. 😁

[Sonia]

That's because the department is headed by an extremely competent and dedicated Head.

Sd/-

Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈 | April 13, 2020 at 09:11 PM

Well 👏

I came across this today from my favorite comic’s blog and thought of you. I don’t comment on her blog though. I only comment on Brian’s blog because his blog is well organized and the regular commenters are diverse and thought provoking. It may seem like I have a lot of time on my hands but that’s not really true. I’m just a lot more productive sober and doing my meditation makes me clearer which has the added bonus of helping me manage my time better.

Anyway, here’s to you...
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/03/spiders-are-scary-its-okay-to-be-afraid.html

P.S. I don’t hate all spiders.

[Jesse]

"Is this Dr. Wolfgang Wodarg actually trying to say that the novel corona virus pandemic is a conspiracy made by virologists who want prestige, political influence and funding for their research centers???"

Not really his main point at all, but if you think humans are above such petty things I have a some things I'd like you to buy from me.

"Without a quarantine or lockdown, one of Asia’s the leading epidemiologists estimated roughly 200 million people would die worldwide by the second wave."

Then he is a hysterical maniac. Perfect example of why I stopped believing in expert predictions. They made all these stupid predictions with almost zero data, which has now proven to be embarrassing for them, because they're horrendously wrong.

You think 200 million dead turned into a normal light flu season just by forcing people to only skip church but then crowd around grocery stores? Makes a lot of sense, but I prefer expert opinions that in some way resemble the reality we can all see with our own eyes. And that reality is that this corona b.s. is blown way out of proportion. It's not the first instance of mass hysteria, and it won't be the last.

"Our healthcare systems are not currently overwhelmed as much as they would be if there hadn’t been a lockdown."

They're significantly less overwhelmed than they were 2 years ago when the flu killed many more people and there were people sleeping outside hospitals all over the country. News reported on it. Did everyone forget? Also, I had a number of youtube videos bookmarked that showed empty hospitals which had been reported as overwhelmed with stacks of dead people. Youtube took the videos down. Why would they deny us the right to information?

"Think about it. We live in a world of roughly 7.8 billion people. If we lost close to 200 million people in one year, how many families would that touch?"

Think about it, in a normal year 60 million people die anyway. It's not even 4 times the amount of average annual deaths. You make it sound like we'd be swimming in blood.

Right now the world has about 125,000 deaths due possibly to covid 19, though we don't even have accurate numbers on that, and almost all the people were either old or fat or both. Wait til we get to at least a few million healthy people dying before we start talking about 200 million. Right now it just sounds stupid as hell to even mention that number.

Also, Swedes should already all be dead according to these "expert" opinions you subscribe to, yet they're perfectly fine. lol this is all so dumb.

[Sonia]

@Jesse

So, you believe this is all just simply mass hysteria and that the world should carry on as usual? Apparently all of our politicians and scientists and doctors and world leaders aren’t as intelligent as you otherwise they would have kept doing business as usual. Gosh, what idiots the rest of us humans are.

Seriously, how are you any different from those who believe Jesus’ blood is going to save them?

🙄

[Sonia]

Jesse, you along with every Flat Earther should take a trip to Mars with SpaceX. Clearly your kind is too intelligent for life here on earth.

[Jesse]

"So, you believe this is all just simply mass hysteria and that the world should carry on as usual?"

Yes. Absolutely.

Mass hysteria has nothing to do with intelligence, Sonia.

[Jesse]

Person 1- So you're saying all these people who have been wrong are wrong, and the people who were right were actually right?????

Person 2- Yes

Person 1- OMG conspiracy! I guess you believe ancient aliens is bible Jesus blah blah other non-sequitur??? We should put you in a camp and kill you because anti-science danger. Must kill the bad ones to defend science. Burp huhuhuhuh butt. I like science cause like, huhuhuh, shut up. Do you even do science? Science is more smarter than like not science huhuh emoji butt.

[Jesse]

Person 1- So you're saying all these people who have been wrong are wrong, and the people who were right were actually right?????

Person 2- Yes

Person 1- OMG conspiracy! I guess you believe ancient aliens is bible Jesus blah blah other non-sequitur??? We should put you in a camp and kill you because anti-science danger. Must kill the bad ones to defend science. Burp huhuhuhuh butt. I like science cause like, huhuhuh, shut up. Do you even do science? Science is more smarter than like not science huhuh emoji butt.

[Sonia]

No further comments, your Honor.
(Jesse, pretty sure I won this.)

[anami]

About https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qwiyxedC_o

I'm going to try to summarize the Dr Wodarg video. In essence, he's saying that correlation does not mean causation. He's cautioning against confirmation bias. Without a broader study, it's hard not to see what you expect to see. He's saying there are many coronaviruses that can co-occur with the flu. He expects COVID-19 to co-occur with about 10% of all flu fatalities. In a year, Germany might have 20,000 to 30,000 flu deaths; therefore 2,000 to 3,000 will also test positive for COVID-19, but the presence of coronavirus means nothing in his opinion, it's only coincidence.

Now, anami's analysis of New York.

I found something I was looking for the other day. It lists causes of death state by state in the USA in recent years. The link will take you to statistics for New York in 2017--first, births and then, leading causes of death...
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/newyork/newyork.htm
Click on a specific "Leading Cause of Death," such as "Flu/Pneumonia" for a page with a map of the USA and a table below listing each state with deaths per 100,000 in the first column and total deaths in the second. Deaths per 100,000 is adjusted by age and population size, but total deaths is just the raw total for that year. In the box below the map, there's a place to change the year, marked "Filters." You can see 2005, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2018. The original page with New York alone also allows you to see other years too (scroll down) but only the years 2014 to 2017. The two sources match year by year 2014-2017 on death totals, so we can probably trust the numbers for 2005 and 2018 as well.

Flu/Pneumonia death totals for NY State, according to the CDC:
2018: 4,749
2017: 4,517
2016: 4,513
2015: 4,881
2014: 4,702
2005: 5,521

Let's check Worldometer...
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
How many coronavirus deaths in New York State? A big number! To date, Worldometer lists 10,834. That's double the typical flu season, in spite of stay-at-home and social distancing.

What's more, Worldometer only started registering deaths in mid-March.

If we take Dr Wodarg's position that coronavirus could be present with flu and not be the cause of death, then how do we explain NY's nearly 11,0000 "flu" deaths since mid-March? Flu season starts in the fall. By November, December, January, February and early March New York State must've had 3,000 flu deaths already. Of the 11,000 some could be flu but not more than 2,000 in a typical year. Therefore, 9,000 of those 11,000 deaths must be caused by something other than flu. Coronavirus is a reasonable suspect.

It doesn't make much sense to argue that all of a sudden every death by any cause in NY is being stamped coronavirus. Doctors would have to be going insane all at once. Clinicians have always been able to sort them out before. They could tell the difference even between flu/pneumonia and COPD (emphysema, chronic bronchitis or asthma). That's why there's another category in leading causes of death called "Chronic Lower Respiratory Diseases." If doctors were literally losing their minds, wouldn't the media jump on that story?

As of Easter, here in the epicenter, we heard of a 5th death reportedly from coronavirus--a 39 year old man in the suburbs of New Jersey, married with two young children. He was the cousin of one of my wife's colleagues.

My wife has many colleagues and in general is much more social than me, but she's been with the same company for 15 years, and we've both lived in NYC since the 90's. Our friends and coworkers have never reported flu deaths in years past.

Are people in the NY/NJ region dying of coronavirus or dying of statistical confirmation bias?

The Dr Wodarg video was published as early as March 13th...
https://youtu.be/p_AyuhbnPOI
...and total deaths in Germany testing positive for C19 stood at only 8. His high end estimate was 3,000. Today's figure is 3,592.

Germany saw 25,000 flu deaths in 2017-2018, a particularly bad season.
"25,000 influenza-related deaths exemplify – together with other parameters – the extraordinary severity of the flu epidemic 2017/18."
https://www.rki.de/EN/Content/infections/epidemiology/inf_dis_Germany/influenza/summary_2018-19.html
He probably estimated too high on flu deaths. The real total is likely a quarter to a third less and below his low end--maybe 19,000.

He didn't take age differences into account either. In Germany confirmed C-19 cases skew younger and presumably healthier. 82% are below the age of 60...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-24/coronavirus-less-deadly-in-germany-because-of-youthful-patients

He didn't account for social distancing. They began social distancing on March 22nd. Some states had stricter controls than the German federal guidelines...
https://www.dw.com/en/what-are-germanys-new-coronavirus-social-distancing-rules/a-52881742

Could it be that they're more disciplined about social distancing, or that they have better healthcare or treatment strategies? Or that cases in Germany are with less urban concentration? I don't know. Germany has considered easing social distancing soon, and it could show in the numbers...

[Jesse]

In 6 months we'll all be reading articles like this one from 2009. Except this time we won't read it in the comfort of our homes.We'll read it with hunger pangs on second hand furniture in dilapidated public housing as we await our insufficient welfare checks.

https://www.wired.com/2009/06/apocalypse-not-behind-swine-flu-hysteria/

[Jesse]

"How many coronavirus deaths in New York State? A big number!"

"It doesn't make much sense to argue that all of a sudden every death by any cause in NY is being stamped coronavirus."

Except that hospitals (from what I've read) have been instructed by the CDC to assume corona deaths without any form of testing or reporting of preexisting conditions, which means normal flu deaths, and completely unrelated deaths are (probably) being added to that number. People with terminal diseases from before corona's existence have been reported as corona deaths. So, it may not make sense, but exactly what you describe is happening.

As more data comes out we'll know more, but so far it seems like a nothing burger and an excuse for an anesthetized herd of blobs to feel something real. This event is like a Nine Inch Nails song come true.

[7]

Notre Dame Cloche for Doctors, Nurses, those caring . . .

https://www.facebook.com/ankhaton7

7

[Rob]

"So, you believe this is all just simply mass hysteria and that the world should carry on as usual?"

Yes. Absolutely.

Mass hysteria has nothing to do with intelligence, Sonia.

Posted by: Jesse | April 15, 2020 at 07:49 AM

Another reminder.... Send us a pic of yours amongst Covid 19 patients Jesse. Afterall world should carry on as usual. Lead from the front.

Ofcourse without any PPE.

If you can't do this, stop yapping your hypocrisy through your posts

[Sonia]

It’s been fun rewatching old films. I never thought of Tom Cruise as being funny before this.

This is GSD https://youtu.be/1rZHKnnQBeA 😂

[anami]

"Except that hospitals (from what I've read) have been instructed by the CDC to assume corona deaths without any form of testing or reporting of preexisting conditions, which means normal flu deaths, and completely unrelated deaths are (probably) being added to that number."

Not true. You can read the CDC's exact instructions, "Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)"
Go to...
https://search.cdc.gov/search/index.html?query=Vsrg&sitelimit=&utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=cdc-main
Then click on the third result...
[PDF] Vital Statistics Reference Guidance Number 03, April, 2020

[Jesse]

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot
be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances
are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it
is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as
“probable” or “presumed.” In these instances, certifiers should
use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19
infection was likely. However, please note that testing for
COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible."

That pdf is full of room for ambiguity, anami. It allows for infinite number of unconfirmed and untested cases to be reported as corona.

We don't have accurate numbers. Period.

[Jesse]

Rob, who I'm guessing is just georgy porgys new name, I know personal insults are against the rules, but I'm gonna call you stupid. I can depend on you saying something stupid more reliably than I can depend on useful corona data.

[anami]

"it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as
'probable' or 'presumed.' In these instances, certifiers should
use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19
infection was likely."

Yes, because they're clinicians and have the knowledge to make judgments based on observations and patient histories. Even without a specific test for the C-19 virus, they can rule out other conditions with their usual, and C-19 patients sicken and die in characteristic and recognizable ways...
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/what-coronavirus-does-to-the-lungs

If someone dies at home, they can interview relatives to get a picture of disease progression. If it comes to autopsy, the lung damage is probably easy to spot. Survivors also say their illness was different from the flu.

[Jesse]

Wishful thinking Anami, and a kind of thinking that requires far too much trust in people and methods we know are highly fallible, have been repeatedly wrong, probably dishonest, and certainly unable to make accurate predictions. That article doesn't even claim that the pneumonia caused by covid is unique. It just says in too many words "some peoples lungs get really messed up." Not a serious article. I give it 2/10.

We're all lost in and roaming in the dark. Our experts can't agree on jack shit, and I don't have the ability to do testing myself so I'm choosing to not believe.

But you go on and don't stop believing. Confirm your bias. I'll confirm mine.

Do it for science. Do it for love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1k8craCGpgs

[anami]

Ouch!
I got one, Jesse, if you dare!
https://youtu.be/PrBUjXaRSUQ

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia says

This is GSD https://youtu.be/1rZHKnnQBeA 😂

Hahaha story of my life.

[Sonia]

I fact checked all of anami’s research. He’s right. And Intelligent. Jesse, have you considered starting your own podcast like Infowars??

[Jesse]

Those who limit their sources of information to officially approved news companies and government bodies are like music fans who tell you Miley Cyrus is better than Mozart because she's more popular.

[Rob]

Rob, who I'm guessing is just georgy porgys new name, I know personal insults are against the rules, but I'm gonna call you stupid. I can depend on you saying something stupid more reliably than I can depend on useful corona data.

Posted by: Jesse | April 15, 2020 at 03:36 PM

You have frigging no idea about the stupidity you spew.

Rob a.k.a. Georgy Porgy. Jesus I am gonna die laughing.

[Rob]

Here's something for the RSSB believers.

Soak it in and don't start off on who is the handsomest of the 5 great sages of Beas

https://rssb.org/images/Photos/gsd-dl.jpg

[anami]

Jesse,

For all we know, your unofficial source is a guy doing bong hits in his mom's basement. From-what-I've-read claims are empty without attribution. For example, "Except that hospitals (from what I've read) have been instructed by the CDC to assume corona deaths without any form of testing or reporting of preexisting conditions..."
Please provide a link.

It makes no sense anyway in light of what you said here.
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2020/04/pastors-death-shows-that-covid-19-is-larger-than-god.html?cid=6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4fb8db7200d#comment-6a00d83451c0aa69e20240a4fb8db7200d
Why would Trump want Jared Kushner to tell a rabbi with the CDC Foundation to tell the CDC to inflate the C-19 death count? The more C-19 deaths, the worse Trump looks.

Different Avi Berkowitz too I think.
Here's the Rabbi Avi Berkowitz...
https://mobile.twitter.com/globalrabbi
Here's Jared Kushner's friend and former aide, now Assistant to the President and Special Representative for International Negotiations since 2019...
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/09/avi-berkowitz-trump-millennial-middle-east-envoy-190911230505098.html

[anami]

Thank you, Sonia.
I emoji you. ☺️

[Sonia]

@Rob

📸🌅💫🦸🏼❤️🙏🔂

[Sonia]

Those who limit their sources of information to officially approved news companies and government bodies are like music fans who tell you Miley Cyrus is better than Mozart because she's more popular.

Posted by: Jesse | April 16, 2020 at 08:32 AM

I’m started to think that your remarks about COVID-19 are just some sort of social experiment you’re performing. You can’t be serious. Are we all on an episode of Black Mirror??

[Jesse]

Imagine calling me a conspiracy theorist for expecting science to do what science exists to do, which is make accurate repeatable predictions, then in turn, literally questioning if I am part of a conspiracy for having this expectation.

AMAZING!

[zenjen]

Photo of Gurinder posted by Rob...

https://rssb.org/images/Photos/gsd-dl.jpg

It is a lovely photo. Although there does seem to be something vague and distant in close-up photos of Gurinder's eyes. Eyes are the windows to the soul. I do feel compassion for him because of the pressure of his role and he is doing the best he can helping so many people who are enduring much suffering in today's world. Life is strange and difficult, but then, it is what it is...

An excerpt from "It Is What It Is: The Personal Discourses of Rumi"

http://spiritualdialogues.com/books/it-is-what-it-is-the-personal-discourses-of-rumi/

"It is the idea that brings us. The thought of a garden brings us to the garden. The thought of a shop brings us to the shop. However, within these thoughts is a secret deception. Have you never gone to a certain place thinking it would be good, only to find disappointment? These ideas then are like a shroud, and within that shroud someone is hidden. The day reality draws you and the shroud of thought disappears, there will be no disappointment. Then you will see reality as it is, and nothing more."

[Spence Tepper]

We can choose to be happy in any moment we are not absolutely pressed to do something. We can live in a moment of happiness. Free of charge. Our choice. And that choice has its own effects on the rest of our day, and that choice reflects something about who or what we really are. If belief in Gurinder gets you there, if belief in physics gets you there, if belief in Jesus, God, Social Justice, Charity, Moses, your scuba diving vacation, or Trump, new furniture, new car gets you there, and you aren't hurting anyone else, then that is where you should go. It is your birthright to go there. Because happiness has a positive impact on your health. It's built into the human form. And unhappiness has an unhealthy impact. Different things will have different effects on different people. But if you find that a person or thing or idea brings you happiness, to hell what the rest of the world says or thinks, go there. It's yours. It's real for you. And if it makes you happy, gives you peace and harmony thinking about it, then it is your TRUTH. Don't ask for permission. They don't know what is in you. They only know what is in them. So don't become a slave of that. Become intimate with what is in you. Something in you calling out to you. So reconnect with it. Deepen the connection. A door for may open in your heart and lead to something else. Or that door may OPEN taking you one step closer to what you love, or what loves you. You are on a journey. And with each choice to follow your bliss you become something clearer, cleaner, more purposeful, better.

[Spence Tepper]

If you have a spare moment and try following your bliss, at least within yourself, you may discover you aren't good at it. But make it a practice. You can get better at being happy. It's a skill to be developed through practice.

[💓💓. 💓💓]

@Spence
"At any moment"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENrRAIzlL1A

[zenjen]

Hi Spence, loved your comment, words of wisdom, really hit home...

"Become intimate with what is in you. Something in you calling out to you. So reconnect with it. Deepen the connection. A door for may open in your heart and lead to something else. Or that door may OPEN taking you one step closer to what you love, or what loves you. You are on a journey. And with each choice to follow your bliss you become something clearer, cleaner, more purposeful, better."

[Sonia]

@Cousin Zigzag

Well, alcohol withdrawal is no laughing matter. My ex-husband started drinking after we divorced (we’re still good friends—it wasn’t a “really marriage... not really).

After 20 years of of daily drinking (and he was never the fall down drunk type. I never saw him drunk) he tried to quit and each time wound up in the hospital after just a few days. He almost died both times. Seizures, severe DTs.... ugly stuff. He’s doing a lot better since his last hospitalization. I think he’s quit drinking for good. Alcoholism is a serious, monstrous disease. Something I never personally understood till last year.

[Cousin Zigzag]

@Sonia

Alcohol's a can of worms, that's for sure. I was at a party once with all these Iranians drinking and dancing to Culture Club. That's when I understood why the Koran forbids it.

[Sonia]

@Sonia

Alcohol's a can of worms, that's for sure. I was at a party once with all these Iranians drinking and dancing to Culture Club. That's when I understood why the Koran forbids it.

Posted by: Cousin Zigzag | April 17, 2020 at 09:58 PM

😂😂😂

[Sonia]

Yeah... I used to always think, Jesus just day no. I never had a problem with alcohol even in my 20s when I felt it was perfectly ok to drink if you could handle it. I never “craved” alcohol so I’d get really super annoyed with some of my friends from college who slowly started to let alcohol take over their lives.

But going through it myself—even for a brief time—I became fully aware of how strong those cravings are and how easily it can take over your life.

I went to AA until I was finally able to lose the cravings. No desire to drink whatsoever now. The one thing they always say in AA is that the core of alcoholism is a spiritual problem, not a physical problem which I think is really interesting for a group like them to say. That’s why they encourage people to find their higher power, whatever that may be.

I can see now why they believe it’s a spiritual problem... at the core.

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

Photo of Gurinder posted by Rob...

https://rssb.org/images/Photos/gsd-dl.jpg

It is a lovely photo. Although there does seem to be something vague and distant in close-up photos of Gurinder's eyes.

Posted by: zenjen | April 16, 2020 at 04:47 PM

Indeed a lovely picture. But no picture can capture his magnificence.

His eyes - vague and distant - well @zenjen you will realise how wrong you are if you ever look into his eyes closeup. The kindest ever and most loving they are. And I say this having sat across him in private more than a few times and with maybe a couple of feet between us.

And if eyes are the windows to the soul it's a soul full of love and kindness atleast for his sangat and disciples (including the worst kind like me)

Sd/-

[Spence Tepper]

Imagine going to Disneyland or Disney world. Or remember that experience. It is filled with places and attractions inspired by movies, by fictional stories, by fairy tales. Families spend all their annual vacation money and time, and only on those years they can afford it, going to such places. Their children are enthralled. And we share the joy our children delight in seeing their beautiful and kind princesses, their brave and handsome princes, their favorite larger than life animal characters. It's all fiction, but we get some of our greatest pleasures in that fiction. Stories of good and evil, despair, trials and heroism.

Now, before Disney, there was the church and temples. Bible study, Scripture study. In our minds we went to those places across the globe, back in time to live vicariously those incredible stories, and their meaningful messages. Those amusement parks cost very little... We'll, tithing 10%, so maybe a bit. But no expensive rollar coaster or costumed cast or hotel and plane reservations necessary.

Because the outside props and scripts are there to help connect to a story, and the story to something happening, living, inside of us. Our own story. That is real.

Brian Ji is fond of saying unicorns don't exist here. But they exist where they are important players in our internal story. And in that place they are not only real, but largely unavoidable. We think we invent, but are just speaking or writing what speaks to us, what resonates within us. And those things which we do not always see directly, but which call to us, demand our attention, are very real. They are already there. The inner Disneyland is already there awaiting our visit. Several theme parks in fact, each astoundingly grander than the last. But like the theme parks here, they are just places symbolizing something even deeper within.

As we find ourselves with more time in quarentine, why not peer within and go there? Disneyland is closed for now. But that more fabulous Magic Kingdom is open for business within, all cast members playing their roles, and your role, waiting to be taken. Your Golden Ticket is already in the palm of your hand.

[Sonia]

And if eyes are the windows to the soul it's a soul full of love and kindness atleast for his sangat and disciples (including the worst kind like me)

Sd/-
Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈 | April 18, 2020 at 03:53 AM

You’ve referred to yourself as “the worst kind of disciple” more than once. What makes you so special that you fall into a best/worst category??

[zenjen]

"you will realise how wrong you are if you ever look into his eyes closeup"
Sd/-
Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

............

You've made me think about the interviews I had and because I was so shy and awkward when I was younger I did not look into his eyes, but kept my eyes averted. My bad. Who am I to judge another... :(

[Sonia]

@🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

Just curious, were you initiated by Gurinder? And you live at the Dera? I assume you work in administration.

BTW, you’re slow to answer. ☺️

[Sonia]

"you will realise how wrong you are if you ever look into his eyes closeup"
Sd/-
Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

............

You've made me think about the interviews I had and because I was so shy and awkward when I was younger I did not look into his eyes, but kept my eyes averted. My bad. Who am I to judge another... :(
Posted by: zenjen | April 18, 2020 at 04:49 PM

@jenzen

Haha... you were lucky to get interviews. I hear everyone used to get an interview arriving and leaving with Charan. But there were less people then. So much less going on compared to now.

I had one interview after being rejected 3 times and then having to fight a sevadar during my 4th application interview. The sevadar literally implied that I was nuts. 😂

I finally got to have my interview though. I remember it being so much easier, very natural to look him in the eyes when we were face to face. I feel awkward with Darshan—it feels like a strange ritual, but face to face it felt more sincere. Admittedly I did look down and away quite a bit because it’s really hard to maintain your train of thought while looking into his eyes.

My voice was shaking really bad though even though I didn’t feel afraid or nervous. That was weird... I almost wanted to say, “Could you turn your energy down a notch or too? It’s making it really difficult for me to speak.” Lol

[Sonia]

Just a random thought for Open Thread, I LOVE Imagine Dragons.

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

@🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

Just curious, were you initiated by Gurinder? And you live at the Dera? I assume you work in administration.

BTW, you’re slow to answer. ☺️

Posted by: Sonia | April 18, 2020 at 06:35 PM

Yes Babaji has initiated me. I don't live in Dera. But my parents have lived in Dera for decades now.

[Sonia]

Yes Babaji has initiated me. I don't live in Dera. But my parents have lived in Dera for decades now.

Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈 | April 18, 2020 at 10:43 PM

You’re a liar.

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

"you will realise how wrong you are if you ever look into his eyes closeup"
Sd/-
Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

............

You've made me think about the interviews I had and because I was so shy and awkward when I was younger I did not look into his eyes, but kept my eyes averted. My bad. Who am I to judge another... :(
Posted by: zenjen | April 18, 2020 at 04:49 PM

He looks so much more saintly now. Just like Hazur. But that look the day he sat filtering initiation seekers, including me, is one that is unparalleled.

With half my life associated with Hazur and Babaji respectively I still sometimes struggle who is the magnificent one. Such fond memories with Hazur as well.

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

Just a random thought for Open Thread, I LOVE Imagine Dragons.

Posted by: Sonia | April 18, 2020 at 09:11 PM

I do as well. I love The Artist too. LoL

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

"you will realise how wrong you are if you ever look into his eyes closeup"
Sd/-
Posted by: 🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

............

You've made me think about the interviews I had and because I was so shy and awkward when I was younger I did not look into his eyes, but kept my eyes averted. My bad. Who am I to judge another... :(
Posted by: zenjen | April 18, 2020 at 04:49 PM

He looks so much more saintly now. Just like Hazur. But that look the day he sat filtering initiation seekers, including me, is one that is unparalleled.

With half my life associated with Hazur and Babaji respectively I still sometimes struggle who is the magnificent one. Such fond memories with Hazur as well.

Sd/-

[🌞🌞🌞]

@All. about Hagen

Or at least, the aspect of Buddhism that believes in something called enlightenment.

God is not enlightened
HE has no IQ
HE knows only LOVE

And Yes , Mr Hagen , almost right. 🌞
Look to the all time best Red Shift image of this universe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EKl9aF4NnM
All
is random
It is also a zillionth^Z*Z of what exists

Remember my little piece "This is how it works". (Creation!)

For a RSSB Sant Mat Initiate , this Love is easily attainable
More, we can desire that people we like will get it too

Don't try to be an enlightened angel with 999 IQ
It's waisting time

Just ask 2 Love HIM

777

[Sonia]

Love always wins. It’s impossible to fight someone whose response is always love. In those situations I stand, for a lack of better words, defeated. 🙂

[🌞🌞🌞.💥.💥.💥 🌞.🌞]

Better words. OMG

The better here is compassion

F I. we see on YT a tiger helping a doggy to escape
THAT counts to. Two elephants helping a baby , not their own
Who knows A mosquito in need NOT giving malaria to a guy
trump not in 10 minutes sending the rocket to the mullahs

All kind of crazy forms and actions
Can U imaging the Great Multi_region love entity enjoying these
deeds
Sometimes even assisting like the granny lifting a 20 tons car in Italy
liberating a child

You are right - trump was perhaps afraid but the elephant had no agenda - who knows

Anyway. HE does anything n'imports qui and it changes in Love

From HIS standpoint all love explosions happen at the same time
So nice to assist that firework and be in HIS tornado

Sex has also somewhat to do with all this. LOL
but that s for another trilogy
Humour < big time
Atheists have no humour

LOVE

ps
Love is the need to do good to someone without agenda

777

PS2
Don't steal, . . . not even a smile

[Sonia]

@777

If I didn’t know any better I’d swear you’re high most of the time.

[Sonia]

I’m going to continue my rant on free will here. I can buy into “limited free will” but no free will literally makes life meaningless. I guess the Masters are the Adjustment Bureau with limited free will.

No free will just means there is no God and if there is a God then he’s a really sick and twisted jerk.

[Sonia]

With no free will whatsoever, that would mean God created this play of terror, murder, rape and torture for his amusement.

[Sonia]

No free will would mean God chose Trump to be president. It would mean that every horrible thing I’ve ever done in my life was according to His Will. It would also mean that I’m not responsible for anything I say or do and that I’m completely blameless and guilt free. It would essentially mean that I’m karmaless in which case I theoretically shouldn’t even be here to type this.

Well, I’d love to believe there’s no free will because then I would be a Saint (since it would mean I’ve done everything according to the Lord’s will and cannot be judged because I’m karmaless) but I’m a sane human being that believes in right and wrong. I believe we have choices. I believe we make mistakes. I believe we can choose to do the right thing and act upon it.

Without free will there would be no such thing as right and wrong. And while “no free will” may be true on certain levels of reality, it’s not true here. Just like gravity. The laws of gravity exist here differently than they do on the moon and we have to work within those parameters.

[Sonia]

For God’s sake, you can’t punish people that have no free will. They are already perfect if everything they’ve ever done was according to divine guidance.

What kind of god do you believe in???

[someonedunit]

"For God’s sake, you can’t punish people that have no free will. They are already perfect if everything they’ve ever done was according to divine guidance.

What kind of god do you believe in???"

Who's punishing?
Noone

Retribution is only relative to action and reaction, there is no freedom in reaping the consequences of preconditioning.

Free will doesn't exist else Christ would not have swallowed the cup presented him 'Lama sabacht Ani?'

One cannot lift yourself up by your own bootstraps. It manifests from a pull of a higher energy, everything in nature is conditioned. Everything from source of energy is under sway of circumstance of condition there is no free will to be had in nature whatsoever.

[Sonia]

Who's punishing?
Noone

Retribution is only relative to action and reaction, there is no freedom in reaping the consequences of preconditioning.

Free will doesn't exist else Christ would not have swallowed the cup presented him 'Lama sabacht Ani?'

One cannot lift yourself up by your own bootstraps. It manifests from a pull of a higher energy, everything in nature is conditioned. Everything from source of energy is under sway of circumstance of condition there is no free will to be had in nature whatsoever.

Posted by: someonedunit | April 20, 2020 at 07:54 PM

Are you related to Whodunit?

So, you’re saying no one has free will to do meditation or follow a Master. The Masters give Satsang in vain because everything is predestined, there is no free will and all the people listening to the Masters’ discourses are going to carry on their week doing whatever was predestined for them.

In which case, the Masters every utterance are as vain as each action we minions take.

If there is no free will, then you are no holier than a serial killer.

[Sonia]

@someonedunit

And there’s no need for Saints if we are all already doing God’s will.

I’m just following your logic...

[Sonia]

I guess I could go on about this free will thing forever, but I’ll concede to “limited free will”. Limited free will would be like a parent letting their kids play in the fenced in backyard without allowing them to run through the neighborhood wrecking havoc on whomever and whatever they please. It works both ways too—keeps the kids safe. That would make God a more responsible parent.

[Trevor Smith]

@sonia

Would you be clarify what's your RSSB position on free will?

Maybe I can help you here. Take a look at the article

https://rssb.org/2020-03-12.html

[🌞.💥.💥.💥 🌞]

777

PS2
Don't steal, . . . not even a smile
Posted by: 🌞🌞🌞.💥.💥.💥 🌞.🌞 | April 20, 2020 at 12:37 PM
________________________________________
@777 If I didn’t know any better I’d swear you’re high most of the time. Posted by: Sonia | April 20, 2020 at 03:39 PM

Correct. . . . but. why & how U know better ??

but I try to make sense
F. I.
When I say 100% free will, . . nobody reacts
Can nobody even imagine that S/He is God in optima forma
and always was
and 'always' will be. (if an always existed)

and not be angry about dirty stuff U have added/restricted yourself during the countless devaluations of this process

Next scolding the Guy who offers REAL INSIGHT in all this, . .
not me , . . I mean GSD with HIS task force package of 5 words

777

PS
If all this would be transparant for our minds
the originating God should be labeled 'really stupid'

[Sonia]

Hi Trevor,

I have heard GSD say that we have limited free will. And limited would make sense. However, to say we have no free will would imply that we have to ability to make choices.

Here is an excerpt from the link you gave:

“When we look back on our decisions, we forget to consider the extensive influence from the past which has placed us in a particular situation. Whatever we are today is the result of what we thought and did previously. By the same rule of cause and effect, what we are to become in the future will be determined by what we think and do right now. If we make wise choices today, then it will be a lot easier to make positive choices tomorrow.”

The last sentence, “If we make wise choices today, then it will be a lot easier to make positive choices tomorrow.” The problem with that statement is that without free will we do not have the option to “make wise choices today”. Without free will you do not have the option to exercise choice because doing so implies you have free will. You can only truly decide to go with option A or option B if it’s actually a choice given to you. However, without free will there is no way whatsoever that you can choose option A if it’s your destiny to choose option B.

I am not denying the law of karma and cause and effect. Cause and effect are scientific. But if you take karma to the utmost fanatical extreme and say it governs every action to the point that you have no ability to make a choice (that you only think you’re making choices) then there is no reason for anyone to ever feel guilt or remorse. There would be no reason for me to ever feel sorry for hurting someone’s feelings or being disrespectful towards them because it was pure destiny that I said and did what I did.

Basically what I’m saying is that that article is contradictory.

Here’s another excerpt:

“ In reality, whatever comes to us has been our choice in the past birth, and that limits our choices for the future, just as each move on the chess board limits our next move. So our sense of freedom of choice or free will is just an illusion.”

Again, the word choice is being used. I don’t know how to make this any clearer, but with zero free will you do not get to choose anything. With no free will you have absolutely NO choices.

Choice = free will
No choice = 0 free will

Definition of choice (I copied this from the dictionary):

Choice - an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities. "the choice between good and evil"

.............
Please let me know your thoughts... I’m curious.

[Sonia]

Here is the definition of free will from the encyclopedia Britannica:

“Free will, in humans, the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints. Free will is denied by some proponents of determinism.”

RSSB needs to stop suggesting that people have the ability to make choices if they truly believe we have no free will whatsoever.

[Sonia]

de·ter·min·ism
/dəˈtərməˌnizəm/
Learn to pronounce
nounPHILOSOPHY
the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions.

Does RSSB teach determinism?

[someonedunit]

your understanding of what comprises 'free will' and what does not is limited.
Encyclopedia Britannica can only give a limited non elevated understanding based on philosophical or intellectual paradigms.

Free will as determined by human perspective is "limited", it can only be allocated as 'conditioned free will' meaning every thought and instinct that goes into a decision has already been programmed into the equation prior to the conditioned response or reaction.

Humans like all species are reactionary. Other species react purely by instinct, (pure evolutionary / involuntary conditioning) while Humans react by way of habitual as well as instinctual, societal, educational, religious and multiple formative as well as existent (inherent) conditioning, hence their scope for making a 'free choice' in any circumstance is 'Highly Conditioned', by all manner of precursory input and conditioning.

From a limited (human) perspective you can take the encyclopedia Britannica philosophic standpoint that humans possess a (very) limited scope of free determination or free will. It is based on all factors leading into their frame of reference and conditions (and preconditions) influencing their reaction to specific stimuli to determine their corresponding action.

From the perspective of a higher force of nature humans are subject to forces and factors far beyond their immediate control, they therefore in real terms have hardly ANY free will whatsoever. In fact from the perspective of where true free will lies, humans in their current disposition have Zero Free Will whatsoever.

[🌞.💥.💥.💥 🌞. YOU WERE NEVER EVER : NOT.🌞.💥.💥.💥 🌞]

Choice = free will
No choice = 0 free will

You are taking everything as digital yes/no. 1/0 happening

NATURE AND SPIRITUALITY and RESPONSABILITIES ARE ANALOGUE
Like Fibonacci

I glad the exegesists of Beas agree perfectly with what I defend on this blog against a hurricane of atheism,. . . people denying they are the All Pervading Purusha .

before Abraham, . . . You are!
You always are
Shabd will easily prove that to You!
YOU WERE NEVER EVER : NOT

If I was an atheist
I would think
"I hope that he's right"