Excellent comments about RSSB guru's failure to be honest

Here's three comments by "j" on the post I wrote yesterday, RSSB guru wants to keep his tax returns secret. 

They're excellent. Reasonable. Factual. Well-written.

I heartily agree that Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, isn't living up to the ethical standard of even an average person, much less a religious leader who supposedly is God in Human Form.

Enjoy. I've corrected a few typos and added some paragraph breaks to make the comments easier to read.

Not "the appropriate stage" to reveal his tax returns? How many more of Gurinder's followers need to go to prison while he remains mum on using them for shady financial deals? Anyway, I thought Gurinder has retired from business life long ago and, as he told us, was just "living off the money his family gave him."

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What happened to RSSB's much-trumpeted heritage of being the most ethical religion on the planet? For decades RSSB has portrayed itself as the religion known for "honest living."

Almost every RSSB book points out that the RSSB guru isn't like all the other gurus and religious leaders. He doesn't live off his followers. He doesn't receive gifts. He's in all ways a solid, peerlessly honest, straight dealing, law-abiding citizen.

Speaking of honesty, let's all examine our motives for taking initiation. How many of us took RSSB initiation in part because we were impressed by the claims it made for the guru's integrity? I'm not an RSSB initiate myself, but I have to admit that the rhetoric about the guru's impeccable honesty did have a significant effect on my opinion of him and this religion.

RSSB advertised itself as the only ethical religion left on the planet. I don't think that's an exaggeration. Charan's talks and RSSB books had nothing good to say about any other religions or even other sant mat gurus, and everything good to say about the other gurus in his line, and by extension, himself.

And the biggest claim that the RSSB gurus make, aside from being God? That they "live off their own earnings." That may have been true in the days of Sawan and Jagat Singh, but since they departed this world 70 years ago, the odds that the RSSB guru is self-supporting seem thinner than a 2 cent chapati.

Now we come to this financial scandal. I've given Gurinder the benefit of the doubt and have waited a long time for him to do or say something that suggests he's above suspicion of chicanery. But every time Gurinder is called upon to help straighten this matter out...he comes up with a flimsy excuse.

When he's called upon by the Sangat to say something to clarify matters, he is said to make smart remarks. Moreover, Gurinder refuses to go to court because he says his diabetes prevents him from leaving home. Gurinder refuses to let the court see his tax records, even though he stated that the only income he has is money his family gives him.

Gurinder is being sued for borrowing over 1M from a non-satsangi and not paying it back. Three of Gurinder's followers are in prison right now for a scheme that involved moving money through accounts connected to Dhillion family members -- who btw were paid a salary for taking part in money laundering, but are apparently getting off scot-free.

One of those followers is adamant that Gurinder was involved in ordering these movements of funds. OK, let's take all that together: Is it really unreasonable to suggest that Gurinder is less than honest?

Some of us have been saying from the outset that the truth behind this scandal, and Gurinder's guilt or innocence, will be discerned by the courts. I said that and still believe it.

But when I said it, I kind of expected for Gurinder to at least cooperate with the courts. I didn't expect him to embark on a strategy of stonewalling India's legal system with BS excuses, and that's exactly what the present Guru of Beas is doing.

------------------------

"So is the concern for his health... unless you've now chosen to ascribe perfect health and 'superpowers' to him." From what I understand from the official RSSB website, Gurinder is still actively participating in giving public satsangs not only in Beas, but in Mumbai, Raipur, Indore, etc.

https://www.rssb.org/satsang_schedules.html

But according to Gurinder's lawyer, the Guru is far too frail to attend court and explain his part in a financial scandal. After all, the lawyer says, diabetics need their special meals. Does a diabetic's need for special meals mean they can't show up for court? That's what Gurinder is claiming through his lawyer.

Is that really true? I know of a diabetic who had his leg cut off and still got around town with riding the bus and a wheelchair. Perhaps he was a perfect master.

This is a financial scandal where we know considerable sums of money went into accounts controlled by the guru's family members and accounts associated with the guru himself. Yet the guru is refusing to step up in the most basic of ways to clear things up.

No, I'm sure not suggesting that Gurinder is Perfect. Far from it. I'm suggesting he's far from perfect. That is, far from being as honest as the average person.

As for Gurinder's personal finances and his tax statements, RSSB says right there on its website that Gurinder is retired and living off the money his family gives him. According to people who attend Gurinder events, Gurinder also says, boasts really, that he is innocent of any financial skullduggery because he only gets money his family gives him.

In other words, Gurinder has chosen to make his financial status public. He's claimed that his financial affairs are an open book. He's declared he's not a businessman and is simply living off the charity given him by his apparently wealthy family.

But now that Gurinder is called to prove that precious contention, he balks before the court with another empty excuse. All while the people he'd "advised" molder in prison. This makes twice that Gurinder has refused to cooperate with India's legal system.

On both occasions, his justifications for non-cooperation are transparently bogus. I think it's indefensible.

Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Comments

[Trevor Smith]

Let's examine if the comments by J being are reasonable and factual.

Comment 1

Not "the appropriate stage" to reveal his tax returns? How many more of Gurinder's followers need to go to prison while he remains mum on using them for shady financial deals? Anyway, I thought Gurinder has retired from business life long ago and, as he told us, was just "living off the money his family gave him."

------------------------

Personal opinions not backed by evidence may be reasonable but are these by default factually correct.

Does J know that GSD has retired from business or that he lives off the money his family gave him? Has GSD ever said this or was it something else he said about money taken by him? And if GSD has indeed retired from business, I am very keen to know what businesses was he into.

Does J know that GSD is the ringleader who used all those who are now in jail because of it?And if he does know, what's his source.

Why isn't it the fact that those who are in jail at the moment are there because the accusers, investigators and importantly the Court prima facie views that they are the primary conspirators.

Does J know granting of bail is the norm followed by Indian Judiciary and it's denied only if the Court is reasonably satisfied that granting bail could impede delivery of justice.

Why isn't it then a reasonable view that the guys in jail are there because law concludes that for now they ought to be in jail??

Why isn't it reasonable view that GSD just filing his tax records isn't the key to the conspirators release??

@J over to you.

[Trevor Smith]

Comment 2:

What happened to RSSB's much-trumpeted heritage of being the most ethical religion on the planet? For decades RSSB has portrayed itself as the religion known for "honest living."

___________________________

To the best of my understanding RSSB has never made any such claim. It doesn't even position itself as a religion.

Would help if you could produce stuff which contradicts the below which is the official position of itself

'Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) along with its international affiliates is a spiritual organization based on the teachings of all religions and dedicated to a process of inner development under the guidance of a spiritual teacher.'

Source: RSSB.org

The above also clearly conveys what it's to be known for. You want to add your bit to this, so be it.

Yes it does advice honest living - but that's for the followers own benefit (karmic load) I understand. But you have to be totally delusional to think that this advice is taken seriously by most of the followers.

And surely honest living isn't unique only to RSSB.

@J over to you.

[Meditator]

Much of what is being debated about is complicity of an inner perfect Master, as to be specific, in a high profile family financial mess created by some ( yet unknown) involving huge monies and therefore huge debts.

Since the masterminds and the perpetrators are yet to be singled out by the investigative agencies it will be premature to hint at His involvement. Since He belongs to the same family and is a father figure of the family this has definitely therefore dented His reputation and His exceptional status.

We may never know His intentions as a motivator or a perpetrator or even a Matermind till such time the credible evidence emerges.

Picking bits and pieces from His submission to Courts as evidence or hints of his involvement and concluding Him as an offender seems inappropriate.

He is just like one of us - a simple fellow entrapped by the bad circumstances and may be by the greed of His immeduate fellow travellers as Human. Rest who know Him internally have no issues.The Holy Script is playing out as destined.

[Um]

Reading here makes me understand that we come to a table with different appetites.

Not only that but also the wonder why, among the guests, there are some or maybe many, that are more interested in the chefs that prepared the food, the waiters or even the owner of the restaurant or what to say about the opinion of the fellow guests about it all.

My personal drive to participate, are my hunger and as that is seldom, mostly my appetite in tasty food.

Of there is something that stands in the way of enjoying the food I will do may best to work around it and if that is not possible just ;leave it all behind.

In some cases, i lost the appetite in some dishes, what made it all even more easy to deal with it.

The whole secret lies maybe in the difference between people from the country side, farmers and city dwellers. On the farm everything is as clear and the surroundings don't leave much room for [romatic] contemplation, evaluation. etc.

What does it matter if he is found guilty of illegal actions or not guilty?
Who cares … and … why do they care?
Caring for something is a personal choice.

If the baker, is found guilty of a crime, he might end up in jail; his shop will be closed and no more bread to be had. … and i have to go to the supermarket and eat production bread.

[Spence Tepper]

"If the baker, is found guilty of a crime, he might end up in jail; his shop will be closed and no more bread to be had. … and i have to go to the supermarket and eat production bread."

Home baked Bread has no equal, from a good home baker. And there are quite a few of those in any community.

[The con is on]

Anyone can see that the guru is dishonest.
A new book should be published called
How to be dishonest while pretending to be honest
the only person qualified to write it is the guru himself.

There is a great big list of the evidence against the guru.
1. Sheena's book and what she writes
2. borrowing money and not returning it from the movie star
3. the whole singh bros saga
4. the babani saga
5. stealing the local farmers land to expand the dera
6. claiming the singh bros money was a gift - but then being ungrateful for a gift of billions
7. making death threats to Malvinder
8. refusing to come clean and produce the required documents

I don't see anything "spiritual" about this guru.
He needs a bodyguard when he goes around. he doesn't have any compassion.
he is chasing money like it was the purpose of his life.

I can understand the previous gurus being spiruitual as their life reflected it to some degree
Swami Ji meditated for 17 years, baba jaimal for 13 years. Sawan for 11 years
jagat, charan and the current guru? no mention of meditation.

what do you do when the guru cons you? as with the singh bros?

they trusted him and it was reasonable to expect him to help out the very people who gave him a gift of billions.

what type of person refuses to help the people who give him a gift of billions by his own admission?

I don't get it. where's the attraction is following a conman?

[Spence Tepper]

I think Brian Ji could pull together all the evidence and commentary here into a new unofficial RSSB volume...

"Dishonest Living"

Followed up by a second volume of evidence and commentary....

"Life Isn't Fair: The Complete Guide to Being a Stage Actor Guru."

[Dungeness]

@ I think Brian Ji could pull together all the evidence and commentary here into
@ a new unofficial RSSB volume...

Ah, have no fear. The clown car of "attorneys" is here. Kangaroo Court
is in session!

"Judge, is you ready to hang? Yes, that's right... we don't need a
tiresome court to weigh in on the evidence. What we've seen and
heard looks rock solid. Everyone knows the blighter's guilty. You can
take the afternoon to write another blog, preach another sermon,
finish up that book on "Real Masters".

Deputy, take the stage actor to the blog-lockup. His sentence is
a life of scorn and ridicule by a certifiable blog rabble. May God
and the Lord High Kangaroo have mercy on the condemned's soul.

[Jesse]

Dungeness, despite all your attempts to suggest otherwise with strange and foreign pilpul, most people do not think morality and doing what is right requires a legal system or sanhedrin of any sort. When we see dishonesty we just call it what it is.

Has anyone ever seen another person steal or lie, but refrained from admitting it because a court of law hadn't yet made a judgement on the matter? Probably not, because that would be idiotic. In this case we know Gurinder is being dishonest and evasive even if he hasn't stolen anything. So we are right to judge him by or our own standards, or even his own standards based on the books he prints which describe him as a perfect living master.

[Dungeness]

@ In this case we know Gurinder is being dishonest and evasive even if he hasn't
@ stolen anything. So we are right to judge him by or our own standards...

"We know..."? No, you're making a presumptive leap based
as much on your own set of biases as much as the facts.
That can easily become just as pilpulic. In fact, some of the
most vitriolic rants of all spew from those camps... haters and
blind, unreasoning believers both.

Suspicion is alright until it becomes a meme and you start
believing there's no chance you could be wrong. When it
reaches fever-pitch, you quickly look for ways to discount
irksome, contradictory evidence. You start to imagine the
most extreme scenario: GSD is a criminal mastermind who's
stolen billions, made death threats, left hapless confederates
to rot in jail.

Or you hang out in the blogs and take oblique shots from
there. "We know GSD is being dishonest and evasive even if
he hasn't stolen anything." Why? Because he requested his
tax records not be shown? It was a request... a request the
Court could presumably refuse and compel. He or his atty
may have been concerned for his family's privacy without
guarantees that irrelevant info would not be leaked or wind
up on tabloid front pages.

But no, the bias filters say he's "guilty". He's clearly a rich,
greedy, corrupt fraud who's being "evasive". I have a
sad duty to speak my mind ad nauseum, to declare he's
a fake, a stage actor, not a perfect master at all even if
such nonsense exists. We must render a verdict even if
it's in a kargaroo court.

Just leave a little for doubt.

.

[Castles In The Air]

Has anyone ever seen another person steal or lie, but refrained from admitting it because a court of law hadn't yet made a judgement on the matter? Probably not, because that would be idiotic.

Posted by: Jesse | March 16, 2020 at 08:10 PM

Jesse,

All the time in India Jesse. That's the You seem to know little about India.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

"How many of us took RSSB initiation in part because [we] were impressed by the claims it made for the guru's integrity? I'm not an RSSB initiate myself, but I have to admit that the rhetoric about the guru's impeccable honesty did have a significant effect on my opinion of this him and this religion."

Posted by: j in Radha Soami Satsang Beas, RSSB guru wants to keep his tax returns secret | March 12, 2020 at 10:30 PM

If YOU haven't been initiated, then why say ...WE???

That's already a misleading/false/dishonest statement.

[Trevor Smith]

Comment 3

RSSB advertised itself as the only ethical religion left on the planet. I don't think that's an exaggeration. Charan's talks and RSSB books had nothing good to say about any other religions or even other sant mat gurus, and everything good to say about the other gurus in his line, and by extension, himself.

-------------------------------

RSSB has advertised itself...... May I know how and through what medium? A setup which until recently didn't even have its website/channel. Has anyone ever seen billboards or newspaper advertisements put up / released?

RSSB positions itself as the only ethical religion left. Is it? Can't understand why the fuck more often that not the Masters pick teachings of other religions iso the founder guru. Soamiji must be raving and ranting at being ignored most of the times.

Charan's talks and RSSB books running down other paths, religious heads etc. This one should be easy to substantiate @J.

So @J could you please please provide some literature backing up your statement. Else it's a personal opinion.

Strife all over in the name of religion today isn't certainly because of the Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs etc each carrying an absolute conviction about the supremacy of their founder and their God. Right @J

[Trevor Smith]

I think Brian Ji could pull together all the evidence and commentary here into a new unofficial RSSB volume...

"Dishonest Living"

Posted by: Spence Tepper | March 16, 2020 at 12:36 PM

Ya..... Very much possible. With the tons of 'tenable' evidence already available here this would be an easy task.

If Brian JI isn't inclined, you should do it. Anyways it's all in here.

Hopefully it's done either by Brian JI or yourself before the judge pronounces his judgement. Make his task easy it would certainly for he could use this volume especially all the tenable and admissible evidence of GSD's guilt contained therein. LoL.

[Merwan Sekia]

What the hell is the babani saga?? I don't know anything about it !!

[JS]

Are we seriously supposed to believe, despite all of the below (facts and unchallenged accusations), that GSD is innocent of any skullduggery;

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/business-news-riches-to-rags-how-billionaire-ranbaxy-brothers-malvinder-and-shivinder-singh-landed-in-jail/302267

https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/malav-eow-criminal-complaint.pdf

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion
https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html

https://www.businesstoday.in/buzztop/buzztop-corporate/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/story/354797.html

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/pay-up-singh-brothers-dues-in-30-days-delhi-hc-tells-rssb-chief-dhillon-wife-ex-religare-chief-godhwani/story/383617.html

If any of the above information is untrue, why hasn’t GSD sued the writers, publishers, distributors?

[Trevor Smith]

If any of the above information is untrue, why hasn’t GSD sued the writers, publishers, distributors?
Posted by: JS | March 22, 2020 at 08:15 AM

Sue these inconsequential entities...…. what a gross waste of his time.

And the question you should be asking is if all what these entities write why hasn't the Indian courts and judges already considered and admitted the information as TENABLE EVIDENCE and pronounced GSD guilty.

Gosh will common sense be extinct soon?

[JS]

Trevor, Trevor, Trevor, obviously, you are not au fair with how the Indian justice system “works”

Super Rich, Super powerful men, like GSD & Guru Ram Rahim, with millions of followers (i.e. voters) are largely untouchable and live their duplicitous lives beyond the reach of the justice system

Only when their indiscretions go beyond a certain point, do the authorities act and even then, somewhat reluctantly. For how many years was the shameless scoundrel Ram Rahim (who’s sect incidentally derives from RS Beas) allowed you rape, pillage and murder in Haryana? Why?

Similarly, why do you think this sordid financial saga of GSD’s has continued to rumble on for several years?

Are we really supposed to believe that all the other key players, who remain in prison, are guilty but yet, somehow, the (fake) guru they all worshipped is completely innocent and unaware of their criminal activities, despite him and his family benefiting significantly?

When I rang their Singapore residence last year, the Dhillon family hardly protested their innocence

This is a massive test for Modi’s anti-corruption drive. I for one pray that justice is served!

“Let justice be done though the heavens fall”

[Trevor Smith]

Trevor, Trevor, Trevor, obviously, you are not au fair with how the Indian justice system “works”

Posted by: JS | March 22, 2020 at 11:31 PM

Say this to a NON INDIAN.

LOL

Funny, if there isn't anything tangible to argue with, use the age old excuse - you don't know how the Indian Judiciary works. So very convenient to accuse the Judiciary when things / verdicts / actions aren't what you want.

[anami]

"When I rang their Singapore residence last year, the Dhillon family hardly protested their innocence"

JS,
Not to defend them, but you make it sound like a conversation. In your original telling, if I remember, a woman answered the phone, you demanded where was the Singh brothers' $500 million, she hung up.

[JS]

Anami, I spoke with Nayantara Dhillon, GSD’s daughter in law & co-defendant last year

I didn’t “demand” to know where the missing $500m was, I think we all know where it is...I’m not sure where such a characterisation comes from?

Rather, I explained that many members of my family believe strongly in GSD & RSSB, including my wife. How should they feel given all of the uncontested accusations swirling around in the media, including in such award-winning news agencies such as Bloomberg.

At that point, Nayantara Dhillon decided to hang up. I must add that I am a professional person, with exemplary manners, so I was polite

ps Investors pay $1K a month for use of a Bloomberg terminal...do you think anyone would pay so much for a news agency that was writing fabricated stories?

[JS]

Trev, how about you explain to me then how perennial delinquent, Ram Rahim, was allowed to rape, pillage and murder in Haryana for up to 30?

I’m sure you know what unfolded in Haryana following his long overdue sentencing?

I appreciate Wikipedia isn’t always accurate however, please see below;

“Ram Rahim originally supported the Indian National Congress.[15] and aided them in the 2007 Punjab state elections esp. to wrest control of the Malwa region.[37] Before the 2012 Punjab state elections, the Congress leader Amarinder Singh, his wife Preneet Kaur and his son Raninder Singh visited Ram Rahim, asking him to extend his support to Congress.[38][39] However, Dera's support to Congress alienated the party's Sikh vote bank. In the 2012 elections, Congress performed poorly, and Jassi himself lost the election. The poor performance of Congress was seen as a signal of the downfall of Dera's political power.[37]

Before the 2014 Haryana state elections, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Narendra Modi praised Ram Rahim in order to attract the Dera Sacha Sauda followers.[40] Ram Rahim reciprocated by supporting the BJP in the state elections.[15] and in February 2015, again in the Delhi assembly elections. He reportedly claimed to have over 2 million followers in Delhi.[41][42][43] His organisation supported BJP in the Bihar assembly election in 2015, and nearly 3,000 Dera followers campaigned for BJP in the state.[44] In 2016, the Haryana sports minister Anil Vij announced a ₹ 5 million grant to the Dera for promoting sports, in Ram Rahim's presence, which led to a controversy“

As you can see, holy men in India, no matter how unsavoury, carry significant political power and are useful to aspiring politicians

As I said earlier, GSD’s corruption case is a massive test of PM Modi resolve to tackle corruption at all levels of Indian society

Will the justice system be happy with convicting the Dodgy Singh bros and GSD’s premier stooge, Godwani? Or will they have the courage to try GSD?

Time will tell...

[Trevor Smith]

JS

Probably you need to realise we talking Supreme Court in this instance and not the otherwise long drawn litigation that is the feature of the lower courts.

Also, People who understand the Indian judicial system know the significance of this fact on the case.

Time will tell....... Ofcourse and if GSD is absolved, the freedom of speech in India has reached such obscene levels that there will be enough noise made (even being in contempt of the SC) by those who think the verdict was fixed and justice compromised even by the Supreme Court.

I am not saying that the system is efficient but neither am I willing to accept an accusation that it's black at all levels.

Law never errs. Courts are not wrong for verdicts is evidence based.

Actually am horribly suprised that you raised what ails the Indian judiciary. Are you losing faith in aaallll that watertight, solid evidence which you just cited?

[anami]

Hey, JS.

Okay, my recall isn't perfect, but I did remember the hang-up part correctly and laughed when you upgraded it to a non-denial of guilt.

Say I call Taylor Swift and ask her to marry me. She hangs up. Do you say, "Well, she hardly protested" or "Taylor Swift? Wouldn't you be happier with Lady Gaga?"

[🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈]

ps Investors pay $1K a month for use of a Bloomberg terminal...do you think anyone would pay so much for a news agency that was writing fabricated stories?

Posted by: JS | March 23, 2020 at 09:47 AM

Bloomberg and it's $1k per month terminals. Hahahaha

As a trader, I spent years in front of these fancy looking terminals (to a novice) but using only relevant information from these otherwise largely useless terminals. Typically, episodic information which is price sensitive along with real time financial market information is where the utility of such terminals lies. And it's for this reason the terminals cost $1k per month.

Relevant information is what's key. Fraud committed is relevant. No investor or trader using this 1k per month terminal really cares about who masterminded or at whose behest was the fraud committed. Blogs like this exist for this bit.

Clear JS ?

[JS]

Emoji Man, again, I ask the simple question; If anything in the damning Bloomberg article is untrue, why hasn’t GSD refuted, challenged, or even sued?

If any news outlet had made such hideous accusations about me, that were false, I wouldn’t let them get away with it

I think anyone with an open mind, as I myself had prior to this whole sordid affair coming to light, would agree that the Bloomberg article is particularly damning

Obviously, the GSD fan club won’t agree, because accepting this man is a greedy, scheming, ruthless, pompous fraudster would largely invalidate their own lives (having spent many years worshipping him and hanging on every word he said)

While the Dodgy Singh Bros and premier GSD pet, Sunil Godwani, continue to dodge the showers in prison are we really supposed to believe that their beloved Guru GSD knew absolutely nothing of what was going on?

“Let justice be done though the heavens fall”

[Pirate_life]

Hey Brian, I have been following your blog since the past few weeks. I know that you have trying to approach the subject of RSSB with logic and analysis. But in times of covid this organisation has really helped the needy by donating Rs. 8 crore, making 1.2 million food packs everyday and puting up every RSSB satsang centre for food production and main city centres for quarantine and isolation. Don't you believe that this deserves some mention ??

[Uchit]

The guru of beas has taken the covid pandemic to his advantage giving favours to moodi, and as you know you get nothing for free from this control freak manipultaive guru. He is very likely to be looking for return favours at the time of his court cases.