Every religious person is wrong, almost certainly

One of the strangest things about this Church of the Churchless blog is how many thoroughly "churched" people visit here. I'm glad that they do, because a diversity of opinions in comments is a lot more interesting than a comment monoculture.

But as I've observed before, it's sort of like a bunch of confirmed carnivores frequenting a vegetarian web site, where they leave lots of comments about how wonderful meat-eating is. 

Anyway, I understand that devotees of the religious group that I belonged to for 35 years, Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), don't have many places on the Internet to discuss the RSSB teachings and the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, so I'm pleased to offer them this.

It's just that since I've been a happy atheist for so many years, seeing discussions of God, karma, divine regions of reality, the guru's miraculous powers, and such feels decidedly weird.

I find it difficult to believe that the true believers who comment on this blog actually consider that they have discovered the truth about ultimate religious reality that is hidden from the billions of other people in the world who believe otherwise.

After all, elsewhere on the Internet there are countless web sites, blogs, and discussion groups where believers in other faiths, mystical paths, and spiritual philosophies are talking in the same fashion about how fortunate it is that they know the truth about what supposedly lies beyond the physical.

Earlier this month I shared a post about what Ricky Gervais said in his most recent interview with Stephen Colbert. It bears repeating, because Gervais made so much sense.

GERVAIS: … Atheism is only rejecting the claim that there is a god. Atheism isn’t a belief system. So this is atheism in a nutshell. You say there’s a God. I say, “Can you prove that?” You say no. I say, “I don’t believe you then.” So you believe in one God, I assume?

COLBERT: Uhh…. in three persons, but go ahead.

GERVAIS: Okay. But there are about 3,000 to choose from… Basically, you deny one less God than I do. You don’t believe in 2,999 gods. And I don’t believe in just one more.

So what are the chances that any religious believer is correct about what, if anything, exists in the realm of the supernatural? Very, very, very small.

First, something supernatural has to exist, and there's no demonstrable proof of that. Second, a particular religion (or religious person) has to have learned the truth about the supernatural realm that there's no proof of, and there's also no proof of that. 

But you wouldn't know this by listening to religious believers of all persuasions discussing the finer points of their chosen faith as if it was absolutely, positively, undeniably true. 

And that's just freaking strange. Of course, I've been there and done that, so I understand the appeal of considering that somehow, against all odds, the secrets of the universe have been revealed to a very special person, ME!

The fact that billions of other people around the world believe the same thing rarely enters the mind of religious believers. However, it sure enters my mind, which has been opened up now that I'm an atheist who doesn't feel special at all.

Comments

[Darwinsense]

Yes, but so is every hypothesis, every model, every paradigm. Indeed, anything that is less than the
absolute totality of what arises.

While religion suffers from "not even being wrong," since it tends not to be open to refutation, science works precisely the opposite, being the vehicle for falsification.

But in saying all this, ironic as it may sound, it makes good Darwinian sense to believe in nonsense, if such nonsense allows one to live longer and continue the genetic line.

Simply put, this world is an evolutionary tidepool and any nonsense that floats one's boat (even if it is full of
leaks) will continue to navigate downstream, even if only temporarily.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
It isn't just the supernatural that we are all ignorant of, but the natural. Science confirms most of reality is not understood.

And we are wrong all the time.

The distinction between fact and belief can be accepted as is. I can believe in unicorns. If it gives me peace or has functional value.

Proving Unicorns don't exist hardly matters. My unicorn is a construct in my own mind that is part of my world.

It exists there. Horses in this world are simply incomplete unicorns. But within each is a spirit body that is 100% all USDA approved Unicorn.

Beliefs are great, so long as we understand they are functions of personal well being, made often by the subconscious, symbol--making machinery that is a very real part of the human brain. They serve a function because we are biologically hard wired for symbolic communication. It's the dashboard to our bodies and brain, and all the most hidden things about ourselves. Perhaps even our connection to this physical body. Perhaps even this body's connection to the whole creation.

This body is really a replica of ancient artifacts hundreds of thousands of years old. A replica from a molecular model that is reproduced millions of times every year. The model, this museum, is alive! It thinks, acts, laughs and cries. It cares! Unbelievable!

It is an incredible construction and contains amazing history and functionality we do not yet understand.

Science is the practice of uncovering miracles. The miracles in religion are human notions that pale in creativity, power and genius to millions of amazing facts science discovers, each an awesome miracle defying rationale thinking again and again only to confirm how very rational this whole creation is. But how stupid we are, having to crawl grain by grain, insight by insight to understand. It's so perfectly synchronized, it runs on laws!

Unbelievable!

Most religious writings have tales of a seer, who, by looking at the way the cow shat, are able to predict the future! And what a miracle that was! But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

And two miracles a day are more than enough to give me peace of mind in this world that is clearly over my head, and above my pay grade.

But science dwarfs my two miracles a day with hundreds of millions. I love science too. If there is a God it must be all this. The benign and giving power of life. I just feel intuitively very close to that...I personify it. But that is also a very natural path of how the brain functions.

The belief side of the same coin.

We just need to be like that Biblical Seer, Joseph, and realize what we believe is really symbolic, but perhaps not for anything in this world, but symbolic of things very real within us. Symbols that should not be ignored, suppressed or dismissed, but honored as a mystery about ourselves, waiting for our own personal discovery, personal understanding.

And to love the Creator by humbly acknowledging all these miracles, which are proof of our stupidity. What science discovers is pure genius.

[Dungeness]

@ Of course, I've been there and done that, so I understand the appeal of
@ considering that somehow, against all odds, the secrets of the universe
@ have been revealed to a very special person, ME!

Ah, one of the benefits of mindfulness. You nab the mind
peddling snake oil, Catch it red-handed.

But, how do you prove that it was a "Me" fantasy? "Hell, who
cares", you think. " I know myself, I get whiffs of the trickster
inside. You just know the sonofabitch."

It's liberating, empowering. That's all religion is... or should be.
Reconnecting to that core of yourself: the quiet still observer.
Not buying the snake oil or some sketchy elixir that leaves you
hung-over time after time. Just observing thoughts slowly,
carefully... and letting them go. Now that's special.

If a mantra or blessed relic or guru-friend helps, then hallelujah!
Make no claims. Snake oil peddlers wind up OD'ing or jailed...
or on a soapbox being pelted with their own "product".

[Um]

@ Brian
>>I find it difficult to believe that the true believers who comment on this blog actually consider that they have discovered the truth about ultimate religious reality that is hidden from the billions of other people in the world who believe otherwise<<

Well, talk to Indians, Italians, French about their "cuisine" for each of them there is just ONE cuisine palatable … THEIRS.

But every cuisine feeds all in the same way and helps them to grow old.

For a believer their religion i the truth and in the end it serves him in the same way as other people with a different belief.

Not all people in the world are comparing notes so to say, trying to find the best, the only correct … for them whatever was transferred to them by tradition will do.

When making fighter kites, I wanted to discuss the different bridle systems that are available in Asia with an Indonesian from who I first learned to make them. He was not interested, even on the brink of being annoyed … We do it this way; it works for us … the pleasure is in the kiting.

From a Rinpoche, with whom I would discuss the differences between his path and Sant Mat, I got an answer in the same vein. He only knew of his path, was willing to instruct me but had no knowledge about other passes.

Everybody is married to the best partner in the world.

The personal truth in the end becomes the eternal truth …. was that not something you wrote??

[Sonia]

OMG, Brian, this article made me laugh to the point of crying. 🤣

And am really enjoying the comments so far... 😂😂😂

[Sonia Taylor]

Maybe spirituality is just another form of escapism—like drugs and alcohol.

I don’t think we should confuse morality and virtue with spirituality and religion. They don’t necessarily go hand in hand. Sometimes they do, but I think Spirituality is more like a travel agent/realtor. You’re picking your retirement home in your dream destination.

Yep. Virtue and morality and even love don’t always go hand in hand with theism.

[um]

@ Sonia

It can be used as escapism, I guess.

Some children know from the very beginning what they want to become in life ... they have a goal.
Other s have to find out orf simple have to make a choice.
Again others never find a goal of purpose or find their ways blocked with obstacles.
What ever they chose to do is up to them.
In life we can do all things people do but life itself is not made to do any of these things.

We are born with the free goift of consciousness.
We are free to spend it however we deem fit.
But ... the consequences are also ours.

A spiritual path is just one of the things people can do.

[Sonia]

Dear All,

I really hope you can find 18 minutes to watch this Ted Talk that is relative to this post and has a happy ending.

It’s quite superb.

https://youtu.be/yCm9Ng0bbEQ

[Sonia]

The voice of reason’s take on perception:

“Perception selects, and makes the world you see. It literally picks it out as the mind directs. The laws of size and shape and brightness would hold, perhaps, if other things were equal. They are not equal. For what you look for you are far more likely to discover than what you would prefer to overlook. Perception is a choice and not a fact. The voice you choose to hear, and the sights you choose to see, depend entirely your whole belief system. Perception is a witness but to this, and never to reality. Yet it can show you the conditions in which awareness of reality is possible, or those where it could never be.”

[Sonia Taylor]

Let's be totally crazy - we writhe a contract with each other here and now. Going hardcore - 10 days / 160 hours Vipassana retreat and evaluate togheter on this forum. Then we go to Mantak Chia and undertake his disciplines and go for darkroom dmt retreat and evaluate the experience togheter on this forum. We can also go to some hardcore yogis and challenge them, give me a good kiss IF you can - for exampke Baba Amir Singh, Sadhguru Jaggi Vassudev, Amma, Dada Vaswani if he where alive, Santoch Vasudeva and so on.

If you are ON bro's, let's drive.will coast some $ and sometime but it would be really fun 😊

Yours / TK

Posted by: Tore | February 12, 2020 at 02:18 AM

Yeah, let’s all do that. And put out an ad on Craigslist for anyone interested in tagging along! That doesn’t sound stupid or creepy at all. 😂 😂😂

Tore, I’m just teasing you. Sounds like a cool idea that Jesse might be up for. Lol

[Whodunit]

I think you might like this book – "New Proofs for the Existence of God: Contributions of Contemporary Physics and Philosophy" by Robert J. Spitzer.

Start reading it for free: http://a.co/5wNXxr5

Proof against short sighted atheism is mounting in scientific research, atheism basically suffers from insufficient insights and insufficient attributes of earnest search for the truth.

[um]

@ whodunit

Those books mount up to hearsay and belief as the content thereof can only be verified and understood by a happy few, the rest has to believe the outcome and as such it can be compared to the sayings of mystics, people with inner experiences …

Moses said that the lord gave pieces of the world to the hebrews, I forgot to inform all the other tribes in the world that he made that promise to moses … those who need land are certainly prone to believe there is indeed such a thing as god, selectively, giving land.

To prove or disprove the existence of an god etc, is a waste of time and not needed to live.

Nothing wrong with believing on the other hand and living according that belief

[j]

"Bright nature, if I do not see God
You are nothing to me but a vast tomb"

[Whodunit]

OK um
Here is table of contents of the book which is a Christian (Catholic Jesuits in depth analysis of how science-based collaborative research cannot and does not refute divine supervision in nature)

It's one religious perspective and it may not be 100% conclusive but it's far more logical than any atheist 'belief' that life is a random haphazard accident according to a 'law' of natural selection without causation.

Table of Contents

PART ONE - Indications of Creation and Supernatural Design in Big Bang Cosmology

CHAPTER ONE - Indications of Creation in Big Bang Cosmology Introduction I. The Big Bang Theory II. Can Science Indicate Creation? III. Arguments for a Beginning of the Universe in Big Bang Cosmology IV. Conclusion V. Metaphysical Implications

CHAPTER TWO - Indications of Supernatural Design in Contemporary Big Bang Cosmology Introduction I. Universal Constants II. The Extreme Improbability of Our Anthropic Universe III. Many Universes or Supernatural Design? Conclusion
CONCLUSION TO PART ONE POSTSCRIPT TO PART ONE - Inflationary Cosmology and the String Multiverse Introduction I. All Inflationary Cosmologies Must Have a Beginning and a Transcendent Cause II. A Preliminary Assessment of Inflationary Cosmology III. All Inflationary and Non-Inflationary Cosmologies Appear to Require a ... IV. Inflation and Cosmological Fine-Tuning V. Fine-Tuning and String Cosmology VI. Conclusion PART TWO - Three Philosophical Proofs for the Existence of God Methodological Presuppositions of Philosophical Proof: Reasonable and ...

CHAPTER THREE - A Metaphysical Argument for God’s Existence Introduction I. Step One: Proof of the Existence of at Least One Unconditioned Reality II. Step Two: Proof That Unconditioned Reality Itself Is the Simplest Possible Reality III. Step Three: Proof of the Absolute Uniqueness of Unconditioned Reality Itself IV. Step Four: Proof That Unconditioned Reality Itself Is Unrestricted Conclusion to Steps One Through Four V. Step Five: Proof That the One Unconditioned Reality Is the Continuous ... Conclusion

CHAPTER FOUR - A Lonerganian Proof for God’s Existence Introduction I. Definitions of “Understanding” and “Intelligibility” II. Proof of the Existence of God III. The Mystery of Human Understanding: The Notion of Being

CHAPTER FIVE - Proof of a Creator of Past Time Introduction I. An Analytical Contradiction II. An Ontological Explanation of Real Time III. Hilbert’s Prohibition of Actual Infinities IV. A Formal Argument Against the Infinity of Past Time in Any Changeable Universe V. Proof of a Creator of Past Time Which Is Not Itself Conditioned by Time Conclusion

CHAPTER SIX - Methodological Considerations and the Impossibility of ... Introduction I. Common Methodological Elements II. Three Approaches to the Notion of “God” III. The Impossibility of Disproving the Existence of God IV. The Tenuous Rationality of Atheism

PART THREE - The Transcendentals: The Divine and Human Mysteries

CHAPTER SEVEN - The Divine Mystery: Five Transcendentals Introduction I. The Interrelationship Among Absolute Simplicity, Perfect Unity, and ... II. The Ontological Status of Love, the Good, and the Beautiful Conclusion to the Chapter

CHAPTER EIGHT - The Human Mystery: Five Yearnings for the Ultimate Introduction I. The Desire for Perfect Truth II. The Desire for Perfect Love III. The Desire for Perfect Justice/Goodness IV. The Desire for Perfect Beauty V. The Desire for Perfect Home

CONCLUSION TO PART THREE: THE DIVINE AND HUMAN MYSTERIES CONCLUSION

References Index

[Whodunit]

https://magiscenter.com/why-some-scientists-say-there-is-no-such-thing-as-a-soul/

Again a scientists perspective on religion, or a religious perspective on science?

Ultimately it's one and the same thing.

[Whodunit]

Here's a whole lot of top level scientists (Nobel prize winners included) who according to this blog must be wrong because they're not atheists.

Here are a few scientific views on the subject of evidence for or against existence of higher consciousness which are far more pertinent to the question of how life happens than the incoherent mumbling of a comedian and his 3000 divining conclusions.

https://magiscenter.com/23-famous-scientists-who-are-not-atheists/

Professor Christian Anfinsen* (Nobel Prize for Chemistry, biochemistry of RNA, Johns Hopkins University): “I think that only an idiot can be an atheist! We must admit that there exists an incomprehensible power or force with limitless foresight and knowledge that started the whole universe going in the first place.”

Professor Ulrich Becker** (High energy particle physics, MIT): “How can I exist without a creator? I am not aware of any answer ever given.”

Sir John Eccles*** (Nobel Prize, neurochemistry): “If I consider reality as I experience it, the primary experience I have is of my own existence as a self-conscious being, which I believe is God-created.”

Professor Manfred Eigen (Nobel Prize for Chemistry, fast reaction kinetics, Director Max Planck Institute for Biophysical Chemistry, Gottingen): “…religion and science neither exclude nor prove one another.”

Professor Wolfgang Smith (Philosophy, Mathematics and Physics, Oregon State University. His theoretical work provided the key for solving the re-entry problem in space flight): “If the physics of the last century prompted atheism, the physics of today is inciting at least the most thoughtful of its votaries to re-examine ‘the question of God.

[Um]

@Whodonit

Love, itself cannot be proved and so God cannot.

Nobody knows why and when it arises in some one … it cannot be provoked … it is a gift.
That doesn't mean there is a giver …. language is a lame instrument.
And to use the words of prof. B … if it is not there, it is just not there, what can you do.
Do!!!!

The debate among scientist doesn't bring it closer … it helps their career, and the position of th church etc.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Whodonit
You provided an excellent link to an article about believers who are scientists.

Here is an excerpt from one...
". I am happy to accept the concept without trying to define it precisely. I know that the concept of God helped me to master many questions in life; it guides me in critical situations and I see it confirmed in many deep insights into the beauty of the functioning of the living world. ""

He states directly that he does not require a testable hypothesis of God to hold that belief, which he finds confirmed in his subjective experience of the beauties in creation.

Each scientist has their own reasons and definitions. One writes that he believes God is mind fully purified and elevated.

These are not held up to the standard of hard science. They are beliefs.

But the Atheist, in pointing out the harm done by different beliefs, is right to also hold the view that the physical evidence does not support the classic definitions of God. And therefore they choose not to hold any such belief.

The issue isn't whether God exists or not.

The issue is belief. And any one will do. They all have their definitions, rules and justifications. Atheism has its nobility. By eliminating the basis of "I'm special because I believe....." they help bring us all together on a platform that acknowledges the facts and our basic similarity. Genetically we are nearly identical. And the Atheist actually accentuates appreciation for the millions of astounding miracles called life, most all discovered by scientific rigor. If there is a God, he prefers Atheists, because they do not hold their belief higher than reality, than His own will, His Creation.

So, every system of belief has its strengths and weaknesses.

[Amar]

Magis is not an unbiased publication. Sponsored by the most corrupt religions in history, suggest anyone interested to click on the link and see for yourself.

Try again.

[Manav]

Mr. Brian, you will love this. Posted below.

An interesting article...
*for those who believe in God* and those *who do not believe in God !*

It stimulates our lateral thinking :

This lovely parable is from *"Your Sacred Self"* by *Dr. Wayne Dyer.*

In a mother’s womb were two babies. One asked the other: “Do you believe in life after delivery?”

The other replied, “Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.”

“Nonsense” said the first. “There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?”

The second said, “I don’t know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can’t understand now.”

The first replied, “That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. But the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.”

The second insisted, “Well I think there is something and maybe it’s different than it is here. Maybe we won’t need this physical cord anymore.”

The first replied, “Nonsense. And moreover if there is life, then why has no one ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.”

“Well, I don’t know,” said the second, “but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.”

The first replied “Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That’s laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?”

The second said, “She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.”

Said the first: “Well I don’t see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn’t exist.”

To which the second replied, “Sometimes, when you’re in silence and you focus and listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.”

*May be this is one of the best explanations to the concept of 'GOD'!*

[Sonia Taylor]

Hi Manav,

I love that story!!!

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manav!
Really wonderful story. So meaningful and humorous.

[Dassan Dass]

Several RSSB followers I know personally have spent their lives over there but without any achievements. Their lives are a total mess full of pains sorrows sufferings. Their behavior doesn’t show any divine attributes and most are worse than a normal person. Yet they claim that their Maharaj is everything for them literally. Their brains are totally washed and they reject to hear anything negative about their Guru. Trust is very good and essential for spiritual achievements. But if you spend your lifetime as a Brian did for 35 years without any positive results then Is it not worth looking at it as Brian did and realized the truth, which forced him to leave.

I sincerely hope Brian people listen to your true story and make a correction to their spiritual guidance source.

[Sophie]

All faiths must be respected, and the ideologies or beliefs of some should not be forced down upon someone else’s throat. Everyone has the right to choose their God or even choose in not believing in God.

[Sonia]

All faiths must be respected, and the ideologies or beliefs of some should not be forced down upon someone else’s throat. Everyone has the right to choose their God or even choose in not believing in God.

Posted by: Sophie | February 19, 2020 at 01:16 AM

I hope you don’t live in China.

Yes, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion shouldn’t be taken for granted.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

I much enjoyed Manav's post. I'm just not sure if you're initiated into RSSB's version of Sehaj Yoga?

Regarding this thread, I sought to reply to one theory;

"Of course, I've been there and done that, so I understand the appeal of considering that somehow, against all odds, the secrets of the universe have been revealed to a very special person, ME!"

Yet someone (um) very nicely I must add, has beaten me to it:

"Those books mount up to hearsay and belief as the content thereof can only be verified and understood by a happy few, the rest has to believe the outcome and as such it can be compared to the sayings of mystics, people with inner experiences …

Moses said that the lord gave pieces of the world to the hebrews, I forgot to inform all the other tribes in the world that he made that promise to moses … those who need land are certainly prone to believe there is indeed such a thing as god, selectively, giving land.

To prove or disprove the existence of an god etc, is a waste of time and not needed to live.

Nothing wrong with believing on the other hand and living according that belief"

Posted by: um | February 13, 2020 at 07:23 AM

That in a nutshell, was exactly it.

'The secrets of the universe have
[NOT] been revealed to a very special person, ME!' Nor you or anyone else.. But yes, revealed to the Masters: This is found in the 1st lesson [RSSB's version] of Sant Mat; the Way of the Saints.

How to prove this lesson? Also is available for those studious enough to catch it.

Nice catch to: um

[Um]

@ Karim

So …. The secrets of the universe are revealed to the masters and the proof thereof is to be found to walk their way.

Well, what can I say?!

The rootmaster is like moses.
Him was told a story.
The teller of that story in the experience of the root master, didn't appear to rest of humanity as to where to find that master and to heed his words…. I know , I know … there are hundreds of beautifull stories of how people came to the path … I could tell my own.

The tale of the masters is a game like cricket.
If played by the rules one can win or loose.
Some are good some are not talented.
Many things plat a role, the field, the public ...and ...money too some times.
Sitting there watching a game can also be a pleasant experience, no doubt.

Karim, the pull must come from within read that again and again.
IF … if that pull is not there … there is nothing YOU or anybody else can do!!!
NOTHING!!
You have to understand this … this pull.
The pull is like an revelation of moses.
This pull, like any other inner revelation has such an strong impact on the human mind that it is considered an higher reality

These inner experiences are no proof for anything but their own appearence.

If you feel strong enough attracted to a person or anything else, you cannot escape that attraction, it has an hold on you …. But …. but … that attraction doesn;'t mean
that the person or thing you are attracted too, is by any means attractive in itself.
Yamun said … you should see her through MY eyes.

Well karim, if ever such an pull hits me i suppose that I will not have the power or the will as all the others never had.

If there is something in the world that I don't want to see, I can turn my head … but who can turn his heads from thoughts, feelings dreams, nightmares, chemical induced experiences, or those that are attributed to the Mystics etc.

Please do understand what I write … it has nothing to do with proves or doubts about the existence of experiences and their contents … but solely, what to do with them when one hears about them ...the HEAR-SAY. It is a matter of BELIEVE. and belief is an talent, available for one n not for the other, sometimes strong sometimes weak. W.James speaks of the will to believe ...interesting essay. I would say if there is no power to believe, there is no will to believe.

So … now coffee...