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January 27, 2020

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Stanislavski, the originator of Method Acting once wrote,
"Love the art in yourself
And not yourself in the art."

“ Harris, being a fan of Dzogchen Buddhism...”

This kind of sentence always amuses me. I wonder what a true atheist like Dawkins actually thinks of Harris’ spiritual beliefs (apart from when not teaming up as the four nerdy horseman of the apocalypse).

I no longer consider myself an atheist, but at least Dawkins nails his colours to the mast - these hedged new-age positions just sound like more BS to me.

Curious about Dzogchen Buddhism so found this article and something in it stood out:

“Because pristine awareness is what we are and always have been, the spectacle of deluded selves spinning endlessly through samsara is in certain ways quite misleading, since at the deepest level we always have been buddhas. Our hopes and fears, our joys and sufferings, and the world in which they play out are all simply emanations of this pristine awareness; they dazzle and deceive us so we do not see their true source and substance.”

Not to the point of understanding what pristine awareness is.

Here is a link to the article:
https://www.lionsroar.com/dzogchen-explained/

Today's research by the brain sciences has over the last few decades shed much light into how our brains work. It is particularly relevant to our age-old inquiry into who we are. It shows how the brain creates the 'mind' from all the information it accrues and how from this information a self is assumed.

This understanding I believe is important, particularly as the mind/self structure is the vehicle that carries all the information that comprises our separate identities. It is through theses separatist identities that we approach life with all the inevitable conflicts and suffering that separatist beliefs (whether religious or secular) create.

A Zen teacher when asked to explain man's predicament simply said “No self, no problem.” They seem to have understood and taught this for some 2.500 years and appeared to have quite a clear understanding of how we are what we are and how it affects every aspect of our lives.

Brian I like what you say: "Meaning, it'd be nice to be content with viewing the things that happen in my life as what they are, and not as a reflection of me."

I do love Zen and often look up quotes because for me, it seems so very difficult to attain that state of mind, my mind is constantly thinking and wondering about who and what I am...

"The harder you look for yourself, the further away you will stumble. You cannot be found, for you are That which is looking.

Drop the search.

See through the mind's tenacious grappling for unanswerable questions. You are a feeling that must be felt—not thought. You cannot locate yourself inside any philosophy, mystical endeavour, or spiritual experience—for you are the aware presence of emptiness in which all such activity arises.

You are not a thing; you are nothing.

You are the silent observer to this psychological dream called a person and to this dramatic play of apparent duality called the world."

Zen Thinking

Yes even emotions rise of itself..
Everything just happens..
Really everything.

Brian
In the deep green/eco-centric philosophy of ‘Deep Ecology’ they talk of expansion as/into the ‘Ecological Self’ in contrast to the isolated/separated, non-connected ‘self’. In the former state one can make sense of a famous term (I think coined by the founder Arne Naess)

—- ‘Thinking like a Mountain’

Brian, This has been an interesting day. I read your post when I woke up this morning and had to do some research. The Buddhist way of meditating is very different to the Sant Mat way that I was taught and the Sant Mat way is pretty much the only type of meditation I’ve practiced.

Anyway, like many new or foreign concepts this sort of are away at me today and I can’t explain why. In between all of the other thoughts I was wrestling with as this day moved along, I kept coming back to this and wondering why this way of thinking feels so abstract to me. It prompted me to research various types of Buddhism (just a quick surface overview). The people I’ve known who practice various forms of Buddhism are among the some of the most peaceful and calm people I’ve met.

So, I thought how about NOT thinking. For me, mantras make my mind race. Not sure why. But thinking about this post and the mountain I decided to sit for 20 minutes in meditation and not meditate on anything. No mantras, no thoughts—just feel the calm.

I finished a little bit ago and it literally feels like my brain just took a shower. :)

Not sure what a “no mantra meditation practice” is, but it helped me not think about anything at all—not even a mountain.


I guess when you’re in a peaceful state you gravitate towards peaceful thoughts. And maybe what gets one to a peaceful state is different for each person. But mantras seem to keep my mind in thinking mode.

Wondering if anyone else has the same issue. ??

I haven’t meditated (in any form) much at all over the past year. It felt good not think for a little bit. I actually feel better physically too.

Anyway, I’m grateful for that mountain. :)

Edmund Hilary disagrees:

Its not the Mountain we conquer, but ourselves.

So according to Hillary it is all about you.

Edmund Hilary disagrees:

Its not the Mountain we conquer, but ourselves.

So according to Hillary it is all about you.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | January 31, 2020 at 08:32 AM

Good luck with that. You’re going to have a very difficult time doing it on your own. If you can’t be honest with yourself you’ll never be honest with others.

If you don’t do your meditation then you’re not doing your job. It’s a terrible thing to be in such a position of responsibility and fail everyone around you.

Georgy,

Have you ever been honest a single day in your life?

Its not the Mountain we conquer, but ourselves.

So according to Hillary it is all about you.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | January 31, 2020 at 08:32 AM

My apologies, this is a wise point... and your British English “colours” is descriptive indeed.

“...these ancient or foreign societies represent an exotic "Other" for New Agers, who are predominantly white Westerners”

In the United States, when a white person follows an eastern philosophy they are automatically thrown into the “New Age” stereotype. That’s why it’s such an interesting and bizarre contrast to see Indian Radhasoami attitudes vs. Western Radhasoami attitudes. In India the Radhasoamis are conservative. Whereas in Western society they’re typically deeply entrenched in New Age practices.

LSD leads to eastern philosophy... LOL 😂 😂 😂

Hi Sonia,

You say: "If you don’t do your meditation then you’re not doing your job. It’s a terrible thing to be in such a position of responsibility and fail everyone around you."
....

Sounds very restrictive. This is the problem with Sant Mat, why be so harsh on yourself? Thats not meditation.

This is the problem with Sant Mat, being told to have to meditate everyday as some kind of discipline. Why not make your life a meditation watching thoughts and feelings and living the best you can with focus, enjoying and observing the present.

New Age Movement: "In the late 19th century Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, cofounder of the Theosophical Society, announced a coming New Age".

"Theologically, the New Age typically adopts a belief in a holistic form of divinity that imbues all of the universe, including human beings themselves.

There is thus a strong emphasis on the spiritual authority of the self."

Take back your own personal power and stop giving it away to some so-called Master who is just a figurehead on a stage.

Take back your own personal power and stop giving it away to some so-called Master who is just a figurehead on a stage.
Posted by: Jen | February 01, 2020 at 03:16 PM

Yeah... I agree with you in my heart. Ironically I’m going to Dera in February just to get away from a lot of crazy stuff in my life. I’ll just go to morning meetings so that I can avoid getting “attacked” by the guru at evening meetings. No evening meetings for me. I just need a “safe” place to go to get away from this stuff at home. Sometimes I wonder if doing Sant May meditation can be helpful even if you don’t believe in the teachings. I’ve been looking into other forms of meditation but so far they’re not working for me.

I only listen to the morning meetings in Punjabi and since I don’t understand Punjabi it helps.

Why don’t you just go and listen. What harm could that possibly do other than your overactive mind reading stuff into things which don’t exist. Why would the guru attack you? If you so worried about being ‘attacked’ don’t ask any questions at all - simply listen.

I wonder if ppl don’t make this all more strict than it is. I’m pretty sure they understand if you lapse or haven’t been meditating. I even heard this one women breakdown because she had drunken wine and even some meat. Seemed to me like the guru was pretty calm (the woman was beside herself) and just said something along the lines of what’s done is done, get back on the path.

But to me there’s no point committing to a path if you not going to follow it because that is what will or will not bring results.

And no headphone..;0)

Don’t even look at the guru if he’s gaze is going to strike the fear of god into you - just listen. Listen with an open mind, not ‘oh he’s talking about me - I’m now fkd for life’. All of this wierdarse stuff is mostly in your own over-sensitive pip I reckon. Just shut it , listen , relax and don’t read into anything. Take what you like, discard what you don’t - but for gdsake don’t fly into yet another spell of mental anxiety problems and blame the guru for it.

Control your mind sonia . It's like a gatling gun. Stay calm. That's half the battle to win.

Don’t even look at the guru if he’s gaze is going to strike the fear of god into you - just listen. Listen with an open mind, not ‘oh he’s talking about me - I’m now fkd for life’. All of this wierdarse stuff is mostly in your own over-sensitive pip I reckon. Just shut it , listen , relax and don’t read into anything. Take what you like, discard what you don’t - but for gdsake don’t fly into yet another spell of mental anxiety problems and blame the guru for it.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | February 02, 2020 at 01:33 AM

👌

Control your mind sonia . It's like a gatling gun. Stay calm. That's half the battle to win.

Posted by: Arjuna | February 02, 2020 at 03:05 AM

My older brother had one of the most severe forms of epilepsy from the time he was a baby. When he was 25 he had a right frontal lobotomy. There were some complications—massive infection, they had to remove the top part of his skull and replace with something prosthetic. Because of the complications he underwent 7 craniotomies. However, he didn’t have anymore seizures after the last surgery and it calmed him down...

I have right frontal lobe seizures as well but mine are partial seizure which isn’t nearly as severe. Maybe a partial lobotomy is what I need. 🤔

if I make it

But to me there’s no point committing to a path if you not going to follow it because that is what will or will not bring results.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | February 02, 2020 at 01:08 AM

I’m going to commit to something. Maybe an asylum. Maybe dying. Either way I’ll be committed. Hope that makes you happy.

“Why don’t you just go and listen. What harm could that possibly do other than your overactive mind reading stuff into things which don’t exist. Why would the guru attack you? If you so worried about being ‘attacked’ don’t ask any questions at all - simply listen.”

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | February 02, 2020 at 01:08 AM

I’m just really depressed. I have been for a year. Depression is nothing new but it’s never lasted this long. I’m sure you’ve never felt depressed in your life and you think it’s a bunch of first world bs and that I’m just feeling sorry for myself (in case that is what you’re thinking then gfy). I wish I were an atheist so I didn’t have to worry about what will happen to me when I die... whenever that day comes.

My brother and his wife are having their first baby tonight. Scheduled induced labor. Anyway, whenever someone in my family has a baby I’m really happy for them. I really am. But I also get this bottle of pills out and just stare at it thinking... 🤔

Don’t worry, my husband knows I’m suicidal so no need to feel like you need to do anything. Just sayin’ I’m in a dark space. It’s the one thing that actually triggers me in a real way.

OK, I’m going to stop commenting.

Arjuna and Georgy
When you have struggled with this path, you will be in a better position to offer advice.

It's not easy. And falling actually is part of the common experience for most people. And for those who don't fall, pride and arrogance are the pits they commonly fall into. And that's just as big or bigger of a fall.

Try it Georgy. You avoid asking for initiation because you don't want to commit to something you can't fulfill. But what a lame excuse. No athlete refuses to practice because they are afraid of losing. But most athletes don't come in first place. But they do the race, they get through the game with some honor, and some shame.

Sitting on the sidelines, however, passing judgment on others struggling with the path, is 100% shame. It's a waste of human life. It's pure ignorance.

Well guess what. You will fall on this path. Lust, anger, greed, attachment, pride. They are always there. So long as there is mind, you must deal with these. But all honor to those who are trying. Join us!!

The path is not an instant solution. You have a means to develop, to become stronger psychologically, mentally, spirituality, but only by your own practice. You think the Master will do it all. In one sense that is correct. But you make a huge burden for him without doing your part. You won't take a step forward without those being your steps. Struggle will be there now or later, you can delay or get started, but struggle and fall will be there. If you don't start, you have failed. If you don't get up after a fall, you have failed.

But you can fall 1, 000,000 times, badly. But if you get up 1,000,001 there is no failure. Zero failure.

If you don't start, or restart, you are the heaviest burden on Master all those around you. Shameful.

But if you fall, if you get angry with Master, if you struggle to find a way, all you will get from the inner Master is a smile, and encouragement, "Keep Going!" All honor is yours.

But not trying, not starting, or not starting again, that is failure.


People rely upon the Master precisely because they are aware of their limitations and have faith that Master, all powerful, will help them overcome. And meditation actually makes them aware of those shortcomings, and even those of the outer Master.

And Master becomes the internalized symbol and representation of the power and perfection in you. You aren't giving your power to anyone. You are using the outer Master to connect with your own inner Master, in the projected image of the outer Master. This is how the brain works. It's natural, it's helpful, there is nothing wrong with it.

So, Georgy and Arjuna... Get to work. Apply for initiation or go back to working the vows with humility and submission to your own inner Master, however your brain personifies it.

And when you really become aware of the impossibility of any progress at all without connecting to all of you, especially they inner Master part of you, , and withdraw in humility, submit within in humility, then you take the steps, the real practice of connecting with the deepest parts of yourself. The parts that your proud conscious mind refuses to submit to, connect with, have a relationship with.

That is a relationship to yourself.

Until then you are projecting your own fears and self - loathing onto Sonia, onto the perceived weaknesses of others, which is really your own shadow self crying out for your attention and connection.

Physician, heal thyself.


Sonia
Do whatever you believe is progressive. Do that. Take your next step as you define it. It's an adventure. Don't let anyone else tell you to do anything else. Don't be influenced by family or friends. Trust Your Gut, and go there. Don't think about it too much. If you want to sit before Gurinder, go. If you want to flee to the hills as far from Gurinder as you can get, Go!

If you want to embrace the Path, go there!

If you want to reject the path loudly, with a bull horn, publish a book about this hateful path and the thieving Guru, Do It!

All that exists, Sonia, are pieces of you scattered in so many places... You are on a treasure hunt for the jewel fragments that are all a part of you. And you must go to each of these places, because they are indeed scattered, local and remote, to reclaim all your own parts. They belong to you. They are your property. This is all your treasure. The Lord is there encouraging you to go find them, wherever they are scattered.

When you look at Gurinder and think, "what a jerk!" and when you look at him and think "Lord" that is All Lord, both, and every version, and you should honor each in their own time.

Great post Spence really great!!
It's about being ''yourself'' in any given moment..
This is such wisdom!!

And then trying to be an observer..

Sonia
Just relax. Life can be hard. V hard. But nothing is worth getting so worked up about, especially if you’ve got your physical health. Bad times also pass.
If you are genuinely that depressed then seek professional help. I wouldn’t go to Dera or do anything else that might upset you if you are in such a precarious mental space. And I don’t think blogging is a good idea for you either if it’s going to upset you to such a state.

What is this daft fool bro Tepper withering on about now - ‘physician heal thyself’ I mean Jesus Christ almighty gd help us all

Georgy,
You wrote
"What is this daft fool bro Tepper withering on about now"

If you don't know, then who is the fool?

You understand perfectly well, you just don't agree...

That's OK. Keep working that 'what are they complaining about now?' line....

And that other one..
'I'm not committing myself to anything, though I love to critize people for struggling with their commitments..'

As for blogging, who gave you permission to blog?

Don't you have homework to do?

@ spence. Dont patranise me. If you knew my struggles you would not have written about struggles. All my family died before the age of 27. Dont talk about stuff you have no idea about!!!! Understand. You piss me off with your non stop new age crap about what saints.

You are an empty vessel like me . Wish I could give you a virtual slap for talking about struggles. Now piss off

@ When you look at Gurinder and think, "what a jerk!" ...

He needs to be up close to receive his punishment in my opinion.
Imagine him standing beside you. Fire away. Then administer the
piece de resistance: "It's for your own good!"


I don’t even read what you are saying Tepper cos it’s mostly just rubbish, but when I see ‘physician heal thyself’ I just know it can only be a special kind of dufus.

As far as I can tell Sonia was replying to me - not you. Which is not at all surprising with your reeled-out rent-a-quotes on wisdom and spirituality, which are quite obviously plain useless.

The bottomline here is that Sonia probably shouldn’t be on this blog or even going to rssb if it upsets her so much. She sure as hell shouldn’t be offloading her problems unto others - and your sachranine effete posts of pseudo-support are neither justified nor helping her at all.

Sonia knows full well which of her accusations are justified and which are not, as should you about your own accusations. I feel sorry for Sonia because I like her, but if you/her are going to take pot-shots at someone - guess what, others will disagree, and she needs to accept that. If she doesn’t want to be triggered, then stop poking the bear. But I really got no interest in upsetting her even if it’s with the truth - so please continue your preaching as if that’s worth a pinch of salt.

Hi Georgy
Maybe you are contributing to Sonia's stress by not accepting her for who she is?

Why are you trying to fix her?

That's why I wrote
"physician, heal thyself."

Pardon me for have a three digit IQ.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"He needs to be up close to receive his punishment in my opinion.
Imagine him standing beside you. Fire away. Then administer the
piece de resistance: "It's for your own good!""

Nice.

Worse still when he's inside you. But those arguments end very quickly. Just you vs you.

Hi Sonia,

About depression, my heart goes out to you, please keep on commenting here because this blog imo is like a kind of therapy for those of us who are seeking to find ourselves and understand what the heck this life is all about. We can and do help each other with all our different opinions.

Maybe your depression is about the conflict in you about going to the Dera. Maybe just try to see it as a holiday and enjoy yourself, no need to like or dislike the head honcho, he's just doing his duty the best he can.
At the Dera be your friendly self and have chats with people without being too complicated and just remember Life is Just a Ride and be kind to yourself :)

Hi Sonia are you in the Bay Area? I can meet you and talk-perhaps it may help with the depression. Please let me knoe

“The world is like a ride in an amusement park, and when you choose to go on it you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. The ride goes up and down, around and around, it has thrills and chills, and it's very brightly colored, and it's very loud, and it's fun for a while. Many people have been on the ride a long time, and they begin to wonder, "Hey, is this real, or is this just a ride?" And other people have remembered, and they come back to us and say, "Hey, don't worry; don't be afraid, ever, because this is just a ride."

And we … kill those people. "Shut him up! I've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up! Look at my furrows of worry, look at my big bank account, and my family. This has to be real." It's just a ride. But we always kill the good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok … But it doesn't matter, because it's just a ride. And we can change it any time we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings of money. Just a simple choice, right now, between fear and love.

The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love instead see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would pay for many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.”

― Bill Hicks

No thing (physical, emotional, psychological, or any combination thereof) exists in or of itself. But there are things (physical, emotional, psychological, or any combination thereof) being experienced.

Arjuna, I had no idea that you lost your family at such a young age. I’m very sorry to hear that. That would impact anyone in the most profound way.

Jen from Austin, thanks so much. I’ll definitely let you know when I’m in the Bay Area next.

Jen, (Zen Jen) I appreciate you’re encouragement. It is therapeutic. Although after this morning I was like, I should stop... 😐 I don’t mean to offload. It was just a particularly trying day. However, a lot happened through the process of this odd palindrome day. I was able to have a conversation with my older brother’s ex-wife. Because of her social standing, my family treated her pretty shitty. They wouldn’t accept her kids especially the Latino girl she had with her previous husband. But I had many fights with my parents over this and now they accept her and love her to death as one of their own. I also got to share with my sister-in-law that she wasn’t the problem—it was their problem. I don’t think she ever realized before how much I stood up for her and fought with my family about how they treated her oldest child as well as the three children she had with my older brother. After she and I had that conversation this evening I felt such a sense of peace. I think she felt a lot better too.

Oddly enough I like all the regulars on this blog... even Georgy. 😉

I know my weaknesses and really wish I didn’t have them. My greatest weakness is I’m a fighter through and through. It’s like I was Durga in a past life or something equally as ridiculous. My rational mind knows that fighting isn’t going to fix things but my irrational mind has an extremely difficult time just accepting things and allowing them to be.

My lesson for today was acceptance.

I have so many questions and am desperately seeking just to find the truth. I found ACIM particularly helpful for a while, however, I read earlier this week that the person who scribed the book said it was the worst thing that ever happened to her. So, I’m wondering what IS truth. I know that perception is “relative” but the truth shouldn’t be IMO.

I want to go to Dera because I still have questions. Because of financial reasons I may not be able to go in February. Possibly I can go in March but if not then definitely I can afford October.

Just have so many questions still left unanswered.

Georgy, you drive me COMPLETELY insane but I like you too.

And Spence, I find you words very comforting.

s*, you are always so kind.

The long and short of it is I am an extremely flawed human being who probably shouldn’t be dumping all my problems on a blog, but that comes with being too open. I’m in search of the Truth like everyone else.

Today was especially difficult but I made it through. Some days are easy for me when they may be difficult for you. I guess it just helps to “talk” about it.

However, perhaps I should have stuck with a pseudonym all along. 🤔

sonia it’s quite telling that after all the crap you have written on this blog about RSSB they still have approved your free accommodation at the Dera. 🤔

It’s ironic and nonsensical to think you have to “fight” for peace but sometimes it sure does feel that way.

Perhaps there’s a lesson in “acceptance” but I still find some things just unacceptable.

Maybe in time...

And Georgy, just so you know my “precarious” state is nothing to worry about. Everyone in my family and all my friends agree that my greatest strength is resiliency. I have many faults but I always get back to my boxing-fit state in no time. 😄

Last comment tonight:

What I meant by a long period of depression was just the realization that I had been suffering from low grade depression for a long time now. I didn’t consider it depression because my personal definition of depression is severe. But for almost a year now I haven’t had any desire to do anything or get out of the house. It’s like I have been perfectly content to stay home and haven’t had any desires for anything. Just cocooned up in my room not even wanting to eat. But I didn’t think it was depression. I just thought I was really content not to have anything. But now I realize that isn’t really living. That’s low grade depression for sure.

I don’t need to go all Ekhart Tolle homeless on a park bench...

Everyone I know is flawed and struggles from time to time, but I don’t want to drive you insane. Most of what I say is meant in a light-hearted way (which I thought you realized). I’m not the type to take seriously, and I’m not sure anything needs to be taken that seriously anyway. Just remember tho if you are going to express opinions or accusations about rssb / guru, which some ppl hold dear and you upset them, then they may something back to you. In short either don’t do it or you are going to need to develop a thicker skin, because not everyone agrees with you.

Anyways, I’ll give the blogging and you some respite for a while before it all turns into who flew over the cuckoo’s nest.

sonia it’s quite telling that after all the crap you have written on this blog about RSSB they still have approved your free accommodation at the Dera. 🤔

Posted by: Paul aun | February 02, 2020 at 10:02 PM

😂😂🤣

Yeah, well no session is complete without at least one person to kick around. And I get to be the piñata this time. I’m nice to people though. I express a lot of opinions here but I do respect my Satsangi relatives and friends opinions. I mean, I just love them so much that when they go all “Master is God and knows all things, sees all...” I just let it go in one ear and out the other.

Jesus, I’m not rude to people at the Dera or anywhere else for that matter. And I overhear plenty o’ unhappy camper stories when I’m there. It’s not just me. Everybody struggles. And yeah, Georgy’s right, if I insult your guru you can certainly kick back. I respect that. As a matter of fact, most of the time when people do get really mad at me on this blog and think I’m some fresh kind of evil, I only go back and forth with them a couple of times till I see that they are seriously-for-real-not-even-joking upset with me. Then I just let it go.

Everyone I know is flawed and struggles from time to time, but I don’t want to drive you insane. Most of what I say is meant in a light-hearted way (which I thought you realized). I’m not the type to take seriously, and I’m not sure anything needs to be taken that seriously anyway. Just remember tho if you are going to express opinions or accusations about rssb / guru, which some ppl hold dear and you upset them, then they may something back to you. In short either don’t do it or you are going to need to develop a thicker skin, because not everyone agrees with you.

Anyways, I’ll give the blogging and you some respite for a while before it all turns into who flew over the cuckoo’s nest.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | February 02, 2020 at 11:32 PM

Georgy, I know most of what you say is lighthearted. That’s why it amuses me. Overreacting is kind of how interact. I mean, a lot of times people think I’m upset, I’m actually not upset at all. I just have a different kind of personality. 😬

Tried hard to change it when I was younger but gave up on that a long time ago.

We should all be who we are.

Oh wow, that sounded almost Zen.

And I actually like GSD. That probably sounds insane to anyone who’s followed my comments, but the truth is he’s really funny, really intelligent and very likable. Unfortunately for him, he’s in such a huge position of importance that everything he does has a major impact. And I’m talking about everything. If he says you shouldn’t die your hair or wear makeup all of the sudden every single Western satsangi shows up with no makeup and grey hair. I’m not offended by that. I find it hysterical. Every woman at hostel 6 has the same Mother Earth verging on maybe homeless look. But they dress nice. So there. I’m just waiting for him to tell the ladies that they shouldn’t cut their hair and they must wear skirts. Then it will just look like another evangelical cult. LOL

So, anyway... Gurinder is ALWAYS “in the news” in one way or another. It’s all Satsangis can talk about. Both good and bad.

This site is still called Church of the Churchless, right??

I wouldn’t walk into Satsang and start complaining about the guru and I wouldn’t walk into a Christian Church and start insulting Jesus Christ. But this isn’t Satsang. And it’s not a real Church. I mean, it’s not my blog. I’m not trying to speak for Brian, but I don’t think devout Satsangis come here unless they’re just looking for something to get mad about. Or perhaps some are looking for souls to save...

Just sayin’...

God, I’m sorry to keep posting so much. I’ll try to let others take over, but just wanted to say something that I only recently realized...

And this is directed at GP—you said not to look him in the eyes if it strikes the fear of god into me. But that’s just it. It NEVER happens when he’s in the same room. Those things only happen when I go back to my own room or when he’s not around. It’s really perplexing. It’s starting to remind me of what Helen Schucman told her priest friend during her year before she died. I’ll figure out at some point. Obviously no one else can...

Strange, in older days the same things were said, but the satsangis would not make a drama out of it and would understand the meaning instead of heeding te letter.

After the last emperor we got the green uniforms, the the army of faceless officials, afraid of losing their jobs and position … the controll freaks.

It will not last forever.

Culture can not flourish in these baren and sterile circumstances.

But … everybody has to have an window to step on the path …. power flower people had their time, now it is the time for the rich and wealthy and people who have no idea who they are, what they belong to, without roots, coming from nowhere going nowhere … lost in the dark woods of culture

It is not at all about me …. we are waiting for a renaissance

Sonia if you come to my house as a guest and complain whilst here I see that can happen but if you speak negative about me or my home and THEN ask me to be a guest at my home I would Never let you. Who needs that negativity??? No one
The fact that you are even given permission speaks a lot about the organization and it’s head. Just sayin.... 🤔

sonia it’s quite telling that after all the crap you have written on this blog about RSSB they still have approved your free accommodation at the Dera. 🤔

Posted by: Paul aun | February 02, 2020 at 10:02 PM

This blog and bloggers here are just a source of entertainment to us at Dera.

And only he/she comes to Dera who the Master wishes. We the Dera just action his will.

Let not Sonia be mistaken that it's her idea to visit Dera. The Dom Cobb here is the Master.

OK, I really am starting to make this all about me. 😆 It’s not Reality.

Anyway, can we please 🙏 get another open thread link? I can’t find it...

Just wanted to share that my brother’s baby was born today and they gave her the same name as my cat that passed away!!! Her name is Chloe. They wouldn’t tell anyone the name until it was born but kept telling me they were pretty sure I’d like it. It’s kind of weird—we all went around saying Chloe a few dozen times a day when we shared a place. Now all of our friends are going to be confused. 😂 But she certainly has the vibe of a Chloe. 💕

She’s very healthy and very loved.

Sonia

@ Dera Inc

>>And only he/she comes to Dera who the Master wishes. We the Dera just action his will. <<

We action his will …. Like this:
One day, years ago a tall Indian Satsangi came up to me and with a big smile he said:
"Uncle, If baba ji would order me to kill you I would do so"

The soldiers of IS, do the same in the name of their LORD and commander.

Love for God, devotion to the divine, has strange faces

Let not Sonia be mistaken that it's her idea to visit Dera. The Dom Cobb here is the Master.

Posted by: Dera_Inc | February 03, 2020 at 11:29 AM

I had to look up Dom Cobb (you knew I would). Been a while since I saw the film. Inception... with deception.

Tricky, tricky.

One thing I can say for certain is I have never thought for a moment that I could outsmart Gurinder. Another reason I like him... most people are pretty easy to play mind games with. But if I even try to guess what he’s going to say or do next, then he’ll do something totally different. I’d have to clear my mind totally and that’s impossible. Completely unpredictable by design.

Just have so many questions still left unanswered.

Posted by: Sonia | February 02, 2020 at 09:32 PM

Maybe because the answers received aren't the ones you want to hear.or in line with your expectations.

Hi Dera Inc
You wrote
"Maybe because the answers received aren't the ones you want to hear.or in line with your expectations."

Or, maybe something smells bad at the Dera. Of course, if it's all you know, you cling to it tightly, make excuses for it, and criticize anyone who dare question the divinity of the Church, Oops, I meant the Dera.

This actually causes people, defending their religion, to treat other people very badly.

A true Saint never goes out of their way to hurt the feelings of others. They aren't so readily offended.

They understand everyone is trying to figure it out in their own way, and in their own time. And that gives them the reserve.

And when they see someone suffering, they don't go out of their way to say "it's all your fault."

That's just cruelty and reflects a cruel nature.

The True Saint does the opposite. They accept people for who they are, and help them find peace and happiness in their current situation.

Maybe because the answers received aren't the ones you want to hear.or in line with your expectations.

Posted by: Dera_Inc | February 03, 2020 at 05:49 PM

OR... maybe there’s an additional factor at play here. Something is painting a picture that isn’t true. Only today did I realize that those “panic” attacks never actually happened when he was in the same room as GSD. And I have never felt afraid in his presence (irrational and irritated yes, but never afraid). The fear only happens when he’s not close enough to “see”. And simran and meditation won’t stop it. Which has put me in a miserable state of confusion trying to figure out its source. And that intense level of fear additionally made me a bit paranoid since it convinced me that I “deserved” to be in that much fear because I was “guilty” or something. But I have never felt afraid directly in his presence. And unless my mind is the equivalent of a legion of demons, that “something” is not my mind. (Please no one respond to this but Dera_Inc... it won’t make any sense at all).

Weird, I just had deja vu.

Dera_Inc,

Oops, I meant to say those panic attacks never happened when “I” was in the same room as GSD.

I don’t know how “he” got in there.

Maybe because the answers received aren't the ones you want to hear.or in line with your expectations.

Posted by: Dera_Inc | February 03, 2020 at 05:49 PM

“We’re only disappointed when our expectations aren’t met.” I know. But I didn’t have expectations. I wasn’t looking for anything extra—I was looking to get rid of the fear. That’s all. When your fear is completely immune to simran and meditation something strange is happening.

Now I realize Spence feels he’s the big expert on most things, but i wonder what makes him the big expert on “True Saints”.

How many saints has Brother Spence actually met in reality. I mean true saints, not just those Spence himself considers to be a Saint. On what basis does bro Spence presume to know how a true saint would act?

Is their any evidence for his claim as to being an ‘expert’ in this area or is what he believes to be a true Saint merely in line with his own narrow moralistic beliefs of what a saint ought to be, rather than having any idea of what a saint actually is.

@Georgy
see open thread

Hi Georgy
You wrote
"Now I realize Spence feels he’s the big expert on most things, but i wonder what makes him the big expert on “True Saints”.

" How many saints has Brother Spence actually met in reality. I mean true saints, not just those Spence himself considers to be a Saint. On what basis does bro Spence presume to know how a true saint would act?

"Is their any evidence for his claim as to being an ‘expert’ in this area or is what he believes to be a true Saint merely in line with his own narrow moralistic beliefs of what a saint ought to be, rather than having any idea of what a saint actually is."

These are great questions. I'm surprised by their objectivity. Thank you!

You ask about my expertise. It isn't any greater than yours, for both of us have an opinion. So if I'm qualified to discuss True Saints, based on my association with them, you are qualified to question that based on your lack of association.

However, I suggest that if you have gone into Satsang, or into a Church, or into Synagogue, a Mosque, a University, a factory, that you may have been in association with at least one such individual. I simply provided you with a means to help recognize them.

Notice if you will that I did not need to provide any miraculous tests to uncover them. Simply their behavior and choices.

When you find an individual who acts as I've indicated, you may ask them about their beliefs. And then you may be very surprised to find they meet many of the definitions I've provided.

And then you have the basis for a real friendship, if there is good common interest and good will between you.

As for what A Saint ought to be, that is defined by my exposure to them.

If anything In surprised you haven't met such people and suggest you look a little more closely.

Such as considering, for example, the owner of this blog.

And then, Georgy, having met one, and having taken some time to get to knew them, you can also speak to that.

"As for what A Saint ought to be, that is defined by my exposure to them."
"Such as considering, for example, the owner of this blog."

Spence, so you think that the owner of this blog, Brian, is A Saint?

So you judge people by your exposure to them? Do you even understand that each of us projects onto another according to our own beliefs and our own patterns of thinking.

Are you so desperate to find some kind of perfect being that you are able to fool yourself, such as worshipping some person who was nailed to a cross?

Its much easier to go through life, imo, just simply understanding that there is no human being who is a saint and there never will be. Its all about stories and projections from our own perception of what life is all about.

Zen viewpoint: "To master the emptiness mode of perception requires firm training in virtue, concentration, and discernment. Without this training, the mind stays in the mode that keeps creating stories and world views."

My pleasure Bro Spence, glad to help out with some objectivity!

Sorry but I’m confused, after all of that preaching on True Saints that you know of, it’s just waffle. Where is the objectivity we are both crying out for?

With great claims come great responsibility. Surely you aren’t nominating yourself and the blog owner as True Saints?

@ Its much easier to go through life, imo, just simply understanding that
@ there is no human being who is a saint and there never will be. Its all
@ about stories and projections from our own perception of what life is
@ all about.

A modern mystic (probably a Zen master in the past) tells
the story of a dreamer who got an inkling he was dreaming
so he polls everyone "Am I dreaming or is this real?" They all
reply with varying degrees of scorn and/or amusement "Of
course, it's real!".

But the moment he wakes up, he knows he's been pranked.
And then in deep meditation he awakes again. Once more,
the other dreamers are no more. Only the faint outline of a
Cheshire Cat's mirth remains.

The new cast of dreamers again assure him he's not dreaming.
But as he ascends in concentration to the top, the "others"
keep fading away. Then there were none. Only consciousness
is left. The Totality of Consciousness.

Did that Cat just wink at me? No, no, of course not. He sighs in
relief... "I can finally stop fooling myself".


Hi Georgy

You asked

"Where is the objectivity we are both crying out for?"

After all I've written about it, you have plenty of information to go on.

Pages and pages of detail. No waffling. What makes a true Saint is clear as day. But to paraphrase Dera Inc, it just isn't what you want to believe.

You wrote
"
I know ppl who outwardly have bad tempers, that don’t give a good gdam about playing nice or having a ‘nice bedside manner’. They def wont whisper sweet nothings into your ear to boost your deflated ego, especially if a deflating was needed in the first place, yet in my experience are sometimes also capable of great wisdom and almost indescribable kindness. I suspect it’s often these ppl that are infintely closer to being Real Saints (if this exists at all) than the sterile kumbaya kissy-kissy brigade. "

Or they could just be a bully. Defending and justifying their weakness for indulging in anger towards others. Not a strength. Not a virtue.

But violent people tend to excuse their violence, like rapists who claim it was good for their victims. But it's wrong.

Hi Jen
You wrote
"So you judge people by your exposure to them? Do you even understand that each of us projects onto another according to our own beliefs and our own patterns of thinking."

Yes you are making this point perfectly.
This whole world is a house of mirrors.

Except the Saints. They are simply telling a universal and impersonal truth.

They don't abuse anyone. But this makes their truth just that much more difficult to digest. And yet this is real food.

It's what Brian Ji does all the time. Not the bully Georgy seems to identify with. But infinitely more powerful. Because a fact, calmly established, is a fact. It cannot be moved. It moves us.

Georgy and Jen
If you can define what is wrong with the world, and each of us; if you can use reductionist logic, then why not inductive logic to find the truth? Truth isn't just what's wrong. Truth is also what's right.

Hi Paul Aun
You wrote
"Sonia if you come to my house as a guest and complain whilst here I see that can happen but if you speak negative about me or my home and THEN ask me to be a guest at my home I would Never let you. Who needs that negativity??? No one
The fact that you are even given permission speaks a lot about the organization and it’s head. Just sayin.... 🤔"

Dear Sonia
You are welcome home in any state, angry or happy. You may come here and criticize as much as you like. Yes, the place needs a bit of a cleaning, I'll grant you that. Please come home.

Bro Spence

I don’t need pages and more avoiding the subject - just tell me who is a True Saint.

You the one bragging that you know so many of them as if they grow on trees. So I’m just asking for you to name one Saint, just one, and to explain objectively why that person is a True Saint

So basically it’s just hot air.

Georgy Porgy,

Interesting question about who or what does a real Saint is or should be.
I think everyone has their own sort of Saint in their imagination.
When the ''True Saint" let not see him/herself much,..everyone can project..their own idea's
and Idealistics on them.
Most things are just projections..
About the real truth..?
I do not think from our point of vieuw we can know.
We just experience things..
That's what we see..

Georgy

Wow. You are a piece of work Georgy.

You want a name from me, a guy thousands of miles away you've never met, when noble, decent people are all around you.

I've already mentioned two, but you missed it.

You want to scrutinize them?

But that's not how you are brought before a true Saint. It's not about scrutiny or finding the strongest bully.

It's about raising your own perspective above conflict, to set the Lord in everyone. When you build that in yourself, or when you find it in yourself, it's almost automatic. Then they will resonate to you.

But you will have to set aside that anger and small thinking. You won't even be able to apply for initiation until you do that. Or, more honestly, make any progress in your meditation as an existing initiate.

Certain things you have to work for, Dude.

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