On being a Technicolor person in a black and white world

Recently someone sent me a message saying that it had been quite a while since I'd written about Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), the spiritual organization based in India that I was an active member of for 35 years.

This person wanted another RSSB post.

Well, though usually I write about what's on my mind (I have three blogs that represent different parts of my mind), and RSSB rarely makes an appearance in my psyche unless there's some news about the RSSB guru being reported in the Indian financial press, responsive blogger that I am, here's a RSSB-related post.

The theme -- Technicolor people in a black and white world -- popped into my head for a couple of reasons.

One is that when I've talked to journalists in India who want to learn about my history with RSSB and how I view the current guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, I try to convey to them the "magical thinking" that permeates ardent RSSB devotees and their gatherings, especially when the guru is present. 

Here's how I tried to describe that feeling in a 2005 post, "Bursting belief bubbles."

I used to believe in belief. It felt good to believe that my religious beliefs were better than other peoples’. I recall standing in line at a movie theatre, feeling exactly like someone standing in line at a movie theatre, when I remembered to do my guru-given mantra.

Instantly I thought to myself, “I’m special. I’m unique. I’ve got a spiritual practice known to only a few.” I stood straighter. I looked at the spiritually impoverished human beings around me with proudly compassionate eyes. “Ah, I have something they don’t. How fortunate I am not to be them.”

Now I pray, “God, whatever or whoever the hell you are, burst my belief bubbles and lead me not into self-righteousness. Blessed be reality.”

My believing now is centered around the notion of pressure. This isn’t something I believe in as much as I feel. I no longer like the feeling of being inflated more highly than the surrounding world. It takes too much effort to keep my ego-pump running all of the time.

Once I read on the Internet how members of my spiritual group, Radha Soami Satsang Beas, considered themselves Technicolor people in a black and white world. That’s a telling and accurate image. It is true for virtually all types of religious people, though, not just a few.

That last line still rings true for me, but from my current perspective I'd enlarge it beyond religious people.

Sure, I still think religions encourage their followers to believe that they possess a certain vividness that those who belong to other religions lack. However, so do political parties, sports teams, colleges/universities, corporations, and so many other examples of how we humans collect ourselves into "tribes."

Religiosity really turns up distinctions, though, since true believers have so much at stake. Notably, life after death, heaven and hell, all that sort of stuff. 

I'd try to explain to the Indian journalists how devotees of the RSSB guru create an atmosphere of blind faith that makes it very difficult for ordinary reality to break through their thoroughly indoctrinated minds. I speak from experience, since I used to be one of those devotees.

Every little thing that happens in a gathering where the guru is present can take on an importance that seems ridiculous to those who don't share the RSSB belief system. OMG! The guru looked me in the eyes! OMG! Did you see how he smiled at that lady's question! Etc. Etc.

The thing is, though, that sort of We're so special mentality isn't founded in any sort of objective reality. My wife, who wasn't a RSSB initiate, attended a meeting in Palm Springs where she got to sit in a front row just a short distance from the guru. After the meeting was over, I asked her what she thought of Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

He just seemed like a regular person, she said. Which is true. For most people. But to those who are RSSB devotees, the guru is a hyper-Technicolor person in a black and white world. Otherwise, he's just an ordinary person, as I noted in "Did I see God in first class?"

I may have seen God in first class. The first class section of an Alaska Airlines flight from San Francisco to Palm Springs, to be exact. Or, maybe I didn’t.

In the early ‘90s I was traveling from Portland to attend a “bhandara," or spiritual gathering, of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) devotees in Palm Springs. After changing planes in San Francisco I found myself in a right side aisle seat in the coach row directly behind first class, idly watching other passengers board.

A middle-aged Indian gentleman caught my eye. Bearded, he was wearing a white turban and blue jeans. His first class seat was across the aisle and one row up from mine. Before sitting down he glanced around the rear of the plane and our eyes briefly met. Then he took his seat and I returned to perusing a magazine. Nothing special seemed to have happened.

But it had, to quite a few other people sitting near me. For they were Bay Area RSSB members who also were heading to Palm Springs for the bhandara where the satguru (true guru) was to speak. And that Indian gentleman sitting a few feet away from me was the satguru—Master Gurinder Singh.

I began to hear whispers. “That’s him.” “The master is sitting in first class.” “I don’t believe it.” I hadn’t recognized Gurinder Singh, even though I’d seen him before at a bhandara in Vancouver, B.C. Fervent RSSB devotees consider the satguru to be God in human form, much as Jesus is regarded by devout Christians.

The difference being, Jesus is dead and Gurinder Singh was sitting alive and well in an Alaska Airlines first class seat. Imagine that a Christian gets on a plane and sees Jesus seated a few rows ahead of him and you’ll have a pretty good idea of the atmosphere on the flight to Palm Springs—among the RSSB disciples, at least.

I got mildly caught up in the excitement. However, even back then, when I was much more involved—psychologically and otherwise—with RSSB than I am now, I didn’t consider that seeing the satguru was a big deal. And until I made the connection between “Indian man wearing a turban” and “Master Gurinder Singh,” seeing him wasn’t even a small deal.

For I didn’t feel a hint of anything special until the disciples around me started up the “It’s him!” whispering campaign. Wouldn’t you think that if a person truly is God in human form, such would be obvious? Not just to those who already believe in the person’s divinity, but to everyone—believer and unbeliever alike. Jesus, of course, suffered the same lack of recognition. If his purported godliness had been transparently apparent, impossible to deny, by the time he died Jesus would have had a lot more than a handful of followers.

Psychedelic researchers speak of the importance of set and setting in determining the nature of a LSD (or similar drug) experience. “Set” includes the personality of the individual; “setting” includes cultural views about what is real. If someone with a devotional frame of mind joins a group like RSSB that affirms the divinity of a guru, then this person may very well see God sitting in first class. I, on the other hand, just saw an Indian man.

Comments

[Sonia]

“ Psychedelic researchers speak of the importance of set and setting in determining the nature of a LSD (or similar drug) experience. “Set” includes the personality of the individual; “setting” includes cultural views about what is real. If someone with a devotional frame of mind joins a group like RSSB that affirms the divinity of a guru, then this person may very well see God sitting in first class. I, on the other hand, just saw an Indian man.”

That’s a really interesting point. It’s mass (mob) consciousness. 😁 I remember my friend was on LSD with three of her other friends and they all started seeing the same thing. The same thing that was not there!

Totally agree on the “specialness” ego boosting trap. It’s annoying and sad that religious/spiritual people often feel that way about their faith. It’s ridiculous really. Being grateful for whatever it is that makes you a better person is a good thing. But feeling special compared to others because of your philosophy or beliefs is the opposite of enlightenment.

[Sonia]

I can’t believe someone sent you an email asking for a post about RSSB. It feels every post eventually devolves into a discussion about RSSB. 😂

I wish you would write a post about NDEs some day. There are many theories about it. Like what happens in the brain—massive neuron firing in the brain—and how every person regardless of belief or non belief pretty much experiences the same thing.

[Nick]

What’s going on with the trial of the Singh brothers and GSD’s involvement?

[Um]

>> If someone with a devotional frame of mind joins a group like RSSB that affirms the divinity of a guru, then this person may very well see God sitting in first class. I, on the other hand, just saw an Indian man.<<

It is all a matter of the personal capacity to believe, love and fanatasy.

It starts in childhood, with children mimicking what they see, ; boys using matchboxes as "cars" and shoe boxes as garage etc.

That capacity, psychology learns, is divided according a gauss curve; on one side those who can take there fantasies etc as "real" and on the other side those who are not capable of creating a fantasy. For them a match box is a match box.

That capacity runs our world. Without it we would have little abstract structures like democracy etc etc. We would not even have history.

All mystics say somewhere that "one's believe has soved one". Believe functions like love. They are motivators, build in humans by nature. Without them the instincts of remaining alive as individual and species would no operate. Think of how a mother looks upon her new born child and others. If the mother would not look upon he child as she does, she would never look after the child …. he beloved of the mother, might be ugly in he eyes of the onlooker.

My brother years ago phoned me with an message of an traffic incident in which a little neighbor girl escaped death. I said what is the problem. He: "don't you understand?" The little girl resembled his grandchild he loved very much. He explained that if it would have been his grandchild he would have lost sanity and now was faced with an normal feeling of sympathy. The bond of "MINE" made all the difference and that was a shock

Scholars one day might research the relation between the spread of that capacity of looking through teinted glasses and spirituality. Even in te declarations of Faqir Chand it is all about believe and the capacity of the mind or whatever to make things appear. The only difference is, whether other humans are aware of it otherwise it is no other that what happens in other circles.

Churchless are those who might miss that capacity to some degree, thinking that the "church" has an obligation or power to impress them, forgetting that the church never had that capacity…. it is well explained in that story of Laila and Jamun … friends you should have seen "him" through my eyes and the friends seeing a man with the turban

[Vijay]

Sounds to me like your readers think the only interesting thing you write about is RSSB. Hmm quite telling.

[Sonia]

Sounds to me like your readers think the only interesting thing you write about is RSSB. Hmm quite telling.
Posted by: Vijay | January 09, 2020 at 02:41 PM

Not true. I like all of Brian’s posts... most of them. :)

[Sonia]

While we’re on the subject of RSSB and wacky cults in general, can someone tell me when they started building all the overseas centers? There are at least 90, right? And they weren’t built by all free labor and from mud baked bricks by Dera. Plus, in many cases the land wasn’t donated. Just seems like a huge and unnecessary expense for a once every other year trip from a Guru. Am I wrong??

[Sonia]

And don’t even try to tell me those centers were built so that people would have Seva to do (that’s what GSD says). If you wanna do Seva go to your local soup kitchen or help out at local food banks. Do your elderly neighbor’s yard or volunteer at a public library. Do ANYTHING but plant flowers and keep up the grounds of a massive Sangat center that can’t justify its weekly cost.

[Sonia]

OR you can turn those centers into homeless shelters or schools. THAT would be helpful.

Alright, I think I’m done for the night...

[Sonia]

One more thing... not sure if this is appropriate here so I’ll post it on open thread 28 as well.

Performed by Adam Sandler and Allen

[Sounds of Basketball being shot around]
Sandler: "Hey man, I'm joining a religious cult."
Allen: "Now, that's ridiculous."
Sandler: "Well, I'm joining it, so you gotta sign up too."
Allen: "What are you talking about?"
Sandler: "Hey, don't fuck me on this, man, just sign up."
Allen: "No, I'm not going to join a cult!"
Sandler: "I can't believe you're pulling this shit on me after Monday night --"
Allen: "What?
Sandler: "-- I wanted to watch Monday Night Football and you wanted to watch that other show and we watched your show -- I did that for you!"
Allen: "Yeah, well, you kept flippin' back to the game."
Sandler: "I WANTED TO SEE THE FUCKIN' SCORE! Whadda you gotta do that's so fucking importnat you can't join the religious cult with me?"
Allen: "Well, I was gonna go sunbathing."
Sandler: "Oh, boy, no no, I don't think you should do that. Because this guy, Russell -- he's the leader-guy of the cult --"
Allen: "-- yeah --"
Sandler: "-- he was rambling on during one of the speeches about the sun being bad, like the beast can't come out because the sun's too bright and the sun hurts his eyes or something -- you show up all sunburned and that guy's gonna get pissed at you and me!"
Allen: "Well, I'm not in the cult, so I don't have to worry about pissing the leader guy off!"
Sandler: "Look, I'm -- starting to believe in some of the stuff the cult guy's been saying -- some of it makes a lot of sense!
Allen: "Well, good, but I don't want to join the cult. We can still hang out; I just won't be in it with you."
Sandler: "The point is, I'm not gonna have time to hang out with you because I'm gonna be fuckin' busy with this fuckin' cult!"
Allen: "So I'll visit on weekends -- we'll work it out."
Sandler: "No, the weekends are like the busiest time -- that's when we go to flea malls and fuckin' malls and talk people into joining, man!"
Allen: "Can I join for just a little while? I told my dad I'd go visit him in Florida in three weeks."
Sandler: "Well, just, we'll ask then, but we gotta join now."
Allen: "What's the hurry?"
Sandler: "There's a girl I wanna meet there, what the fuck's your problem?"
Allen: "Well, I mean I don't really have to believe in this stuff, do I?"
Sandler: "No, no, just fuckin' tell everybody you believe in this shit -- when they say the sun sucks, go, "Yeah, fuck the sun, I fuckin' hate it too, long live the fuckin' beast."
Allen: "I don't know, man. This is crazy."
Sandler: "Look, they're gonna give you clothers, a free haircut, you're gonna get food --"
Allen: "-- it's not gonna be one of those weird haircuts, is it?"
Sandler: "It's gonna be a haircut, all right? You said you need a haircut, they're gonna fuckin' cut your hair. You're going in, saving twelve bucks, just fuckin' do it!"
Allen: "Do you think the hot girl has a friend for me?"
Sandler: "Yeah, sure, and if she doesn't, she'll go out and recruit one for you!"
Allen: "Well, all right. But, hey, if I don't like it, I'm going to escape, man."
Sandler: "OK, that's up to you."

[Sonia]

OK maybe just post this link without the lyrics. Am I the only person that finds this funny? 😂 I know there are lots of Satsangis in India that only go to Dera Satsang each day because of the free Langar. And I know the only reason RSSB keeps it free is because they’re required to by law.

https://youtu.be/JR3PC8VDoz8

[Sonia]

It’s easy to get a few hundred thousand people at your Satsang every day when your surrounded by half a million starving people.

[Jen]

About all the overseas centres being built. Maybe because RSSB is now a religion and yes maybe they will become churches or homeless shelters when the sh*t hits the fan in the future.

[Sirika]

Maybe you can write about the new video published a few weeks ago by RSSB? Would love to hear your commentary and thoughts. You can watch it on YouTube, Seva of Love is the title.

[Sirika]

The Adam Sandler thing made my day, thanks for posting! Was one of my favorite CDs when I was in high school.

[j]

I can appreciate the tendency for devotees to inflate sighting of a guru. I recall seeing Darwin Gross and thinking "it's obvious he's Who they say he Is..King of the universe."

On the other hand, I've tested some gurus by going into my first encounters with them with a heavy skeptical mindset. I ultimately had experiences that suggested they weren't ordinary people who were benefiting from the theatrical effects of a turban or sari.

[Georgy Porgy]

Look he’s a cool dude. You want him to apologize or what?

[Arjuna]

He is God. Dont waste your life travelling paths where myriad have failed and died going into the unknown scared and alone. It's a long way back to having a conscience ness and human body.

[Sonia Taylor]

Look he’s a cool dude. You want him to apologize or what?

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | January 10, 2020 at 12:14 PM

😂😂😂

No! He doesn’t need to apologize for anything. He just needs to teach people to practice the law of forgiveness and I’ll stop calling him Kal. 🙃

[Sonia Taylor]

BTW, I have forgiven him for whatever... and I don’t need an apology. I just need to know that he’s not 😈 and the TEST is he has to forgive OTHER people and teach them what forgiveness really means vs judgement. But first he’ll need to do some research on the subject.

He doesn’t owe ‘me’ anything. But if he’s Kal then we can’t be friends. Sorry, but you understand... He would still be a cool dude, but we can’t “hangout” or anything. 😐

[Sonia Taylor]

Over the years—ever since the first time I saw GSD in Houston in 2005–when a questioner asks him about forgiveness he hits this twitch in his eye, looks simultaneously uncomfortable and annoyed. He dismiss the person almost immediately. It’s a sure fire way to get a one or two word answer and sent on your way.

The idea of the ‘Angel of Death’ standing at your door with an excel spreadsheet and a PPT presentation of your life followed by “Next Steps” is enough to make people act worse than they normally would. Fear = hate.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sonia Taylor
On forgiveness, I saw quite another Gurinder in Fayetteville.

A man, I tears, came to the podium exclaiming his guilt over a terrible act. As he cried he stayed he had done something for which was unforgivable, and for which there was no way to get beyond, and his fearful his soul.

In the middle of his admission Baba Ji interrupted him... And I paraphrase.. Here his response.. Though the words are burned into me...

"Listen to me. Listen to me..
No father wants to see his child in tears, ashamed, head down between his knees.

" We are all here to learn. Have you learned your lesson?... "

The questioner nodded yes.

" Are you doing the best you can to make up for this? "

The questioner nodded yes.

"THEN YOU ARE FORGIVEN. MORE THAN FORGIVEN. IT NEVER HAPPENED."

[Spence Tepper]

Maharaji used to state that the Master always forgives, but it is we ourselves who do not forgive ourselves.

So feel guilty if you have done something truly wrong and have done nothing about it. But just temporarily. Just long enough to do the right thing, to the degree you can.

It is true that you can't unring a bell. But let's do what we can and forgive ourselves and each other for all the rest. If we expect of of a Guru, we should build that in ourselves also. Yes, it may be a struggle. But it's good work. We will be more loving to each other and better brothers and sisters, willing to help each other, if we can forgive ourselves first, and then each other.

Not to defend RSSB or the Guru. Just promoting a philosophy of forgiveness. In that vein, forgiving RSSB also.

[Sonia Taylor]

Hi Spence,

That’s really interesting that you had a totally different experience with Babaji.

🤔 🤔

Hmmmmmm 🧐

Wonder why I’ve never seen that side of him. Still, I’d like to know his official positions on forgiveness.

[Sonia Taylor]

Well, that throws a wrench in things. I’m going to have to rethink this. 🧐

[Sonia Taylor]

I’ve learned to forgive myself. And I forgive everyone else in the sense that if I were the ‘Angel of Death’ I’d give everyone a free pass to Sach Khand or wherever. How does anyone’s suffering benefit anyone else. When we’re angry we attack others. But that never gives us peace. If anyone in any of my lives has done anything to harm me, well then suffering for the pain they caused me doesn’t help me one iota. If anything it makes my life worse because it just means there will be more suffering in the world. I’d be a good Angel of Death. LOL

[Di]

Kabir: (paraphrased) "where there is compassion, dharma is being fulfilled. Where there is greed, sin is also there. Where there is anger, kaal is present. Where there is forgiveness, the Lord is present."

[Steve]

And I know the only reason RSSB keeps it free is because they’re required to by law.

Posted by: Sonia | January 09, 2020 at 04:19 PM

Can you help with the relevant legislation (as you claim to know that law requires so) which mandates RSSB to (1) run a langar and (2) keep it free

Thanks in advance.

[Sonia Taylor]

Kabir: (paraphrased) "where there is compassion, dharma is being fulfilled. Where there is greed, sin is also there. Where there is anger, kaal is present. Where there is forgiveness, the Lord is present."

Posted by: Di | January 11, 2020 at 07:58 PM

Wow. That is truly beautiful. That is truth.

[Sonia Taylor]

Can you help with the relevant legislation (as you claim to know that law requires so) which mandates RSSB to (1) run a langar and (2) keep it free

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Steve | January 11, 2020 at 08:44 PM

Hi Steve,

Ugh 😑. Well the answer is a bit complex. That statement was the short version explanation given by the RSSB tour guide. Now that RSSB has a gurdwara they must provide free langar (because if they don’t Sikhs will probably wage war again). The Sikhs have their own governing body and what’s tradition vs. Sikh law is complicated as far as RSSB is concerned, especially given their history and relationship with the Sikhs.

In Sikhism, the practice of the langar, or free kitchen, is believed to have been started by the first Sikh Guru, Guru Nanak. It was designed to uphold the principle of equality among all people, regardless of religion, caste, colour, creed, age, gender or social status.

In India temples, churches, mosques are are required to pay tax. However gurdwaras are exempt. When Guru Nanak’s temple/gurdwara was demolished RSSB offered to build a new Gurdwara on Dera premise to appease the Sikhs. Their is currently a new, much larger Gurdwara at the Dera.

And by “Sikh law” every gurdwara is required to offer a free langar. To answer your question more specifically:

Additionally:
As per Indian Income Tax Act 1961, income of Charitable or religious trust is exempt from tax.

RSSB was set up as a charitable trust by Charan Singh and the free langar severed several purposes—charitable and it respected Sikh tradition. Of course, Charan established the eye camp and new hospitals to serve the surrounding community.

Really RSSB is covered both ways now in India—as a gurdwara and as a charitable trust. And theoretically they could and probably do take advantage of the new law passed in India for Gurdwaras giving tax relief to goods and services.

ADDITIONAL INFO:

This includes a list of GST numbers for RSSB in India:

https://www.knowyourgst.com/gst-number-search/radha-soami-satsang-beas-ahmedabad-24AAATR0784L1ZA/

IN THE NEWS (RSSB & Gurdwara)
https://www.sikh24.com/2012/07/06/radhasoamis-destroy-historical-gurdwara-near-beas/

RSSB is registered independently in each of the countries in the world and abides by the tax laws of that country.

Their tax ID number is registered in the USA identifying them as a church which allows them tax exemption.

Here is their USA tax info (you can request a full report for about $8).

ORGANIZATION NAME & ADDRESS
Radha Soami Satsang Beas Singh
Punjab
India,
00000-0000

EMPLOYER IDENTIFICATION NUMBER (EIN) / TAX ID
Nine digit number assigned by the IRS to identify a company
98-6005092

ASSET AMOUNT
$0

INCOME AMOUNT
$0

FORM 990 REVENUE AMOUNT
$0

CLASSIFICATION(S)
Categories under which an organization may be tax exempt
501(C)(3)

Religious Organization
FILING REQUIREMENT
The primary return(s) the organization is required to file
form 990 return form 990 instructions
Form 990 - Not required to file (church)

TAXONOMY
Classifies an exempt Internal Revenue Code 501 (c)(3) organization
n/r

AFFILIATION
Defines the organizational grouping
This organization is an independent organization or an independent auxiliary (i.e., not affiliated with a National, Regional, or Geographic grouping of organizations).

DEDUCTIBILITY STATUS
Contributions are not deductible

PRINCIPAL ACTIVITIES
Other religious activities
Gifts or grants to individuals (other than scholarships)

FOUNDATION TYPE
Church

An additional interesting development: https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/massive-relief-to-gurdwaras-modi-government-waives-gst-on-langar-items/1189939/

There’s more info but it’s really late here...

I hope this helps a little.

[Sonia Taylor]

So, if they haven’t taken advantage of the Gurdwara/Goods & Services tax exemption then they may want to amend previous years tax returns (if India allows that) and get reimbursed. Then they can use that money towards court settlements.

[Sonia Taylor]

This is why the Sikh Nation declared war on RSSB in 2012/13 after the destruction of Guru Nanak’s temple.

“Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class of persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of persons or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction, damage or defile­ment as an insult to their religion, shall be punishable with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.”

Interestingly it was the first time the Sikh Nation has ever declared war and not actually gone to war. HOWEVER, they had every intention of following through with it. But when leaders from all of the Sikh movements met with GSD at the Dera in Mar 2013 they ended up reaching an agreement that RSSB would build a new Gurdwara to make amends. The Sikhs intended to take out GSD at that meeting at the Dera (I have sources for that which I cannot disclose). It was a strange turn of events that he lived and that they were able to settle the dispute (you’re welcome).

ADDITIONAL READING:

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/punjab-assembly-passes-bill-seeking-life-sentence-for-sacrilege-of-religious-texts/article24801302.ece

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/punjab-assembly-passes-bill-seeking-life-sentence-for-sacrilege-of-religious-texts/article24801302.ece

https://scroll.in/article/891426/why-punjabs-move-to-expand-indias-blasphemy-laws-is-a-blow-to-freedom-of-expression

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/is-punjabs-proposed-blasphemy-law-retrograde/article24886230.ece

The Punjab Cabinet has decided to introduce in the Indian Penal Code (IPC) a new Section (295AA) which states, “Whoever causes injury, damage or sacrilege to Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Srimad Bhagwad Gita, Holy Quran and Holy Bible with the intention to hurt the religious feelings of the people, shall be punishable with imprisonment for life.” One wonders why this extraordinary penalty is necessary when, throughout India, Section 295A of the IPC already provides for imprisonment up to three years for “deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings”. Now, damage to holy books can attract a mandatory life sentence in Punjab, while other insults can attract up to three years. To put it bluntly, insulting a god or Prophet would land you in jail, but burning or defacing a holy book would land you in prison for life.

[A Smart One]

So lets correct the inaccuracies in what you state Sonia

In India it's not that Gurudwaras have some special benefits. Trusts that manage temples, mosques, churches etc can also have tax exemptions. Comply with tax laws and any charitable/religious trust can avail of exemptions provided by the Income Tax Act.

Yes, if you ask for langar at a gurudwara you will not be denied but this doesn't mean that every gurudwara has to have daily langar under some "Sikh Law". And Sikhs do not wage war on this.

Langar at Dera existed long before the Income Tax Act 1961. And the recent construction of a Gurudwara within Dera doesn't prescribe any langar facilities within Dera. At other centres too there is langar without the presence of any Gurudwara on the premises.

The RSSB langar serves just one purpose - sangat welfare.

RSSB also isn't any Gurudwara cum charitable institution. It's simply registered as a charitable institution. RSSB has never aligned itself to any one particular religion.

Coming to the tax side of things - exemption is subject to conditions prescribed. So whilst langar is one such qualifying activity, it's a very small portion. So nothing stops RSSB to do away with langar and still enjoy tax exemptions. But it never will. Not because of some "Sikh Law/tradition" or fear of losing tax exemptions, but for the welfare of the sangat - especially the poor amongst it and which is a lot.

Gurudwara's also do not get 'tax relief' i.e. exemption or tax rebate under GST in connection with Langer consumables. Its a grant under another welfare program run by the Government to my understanding.

The GST registration number itself indicates that RSSB is not out of the GST ambit and I know for certain, it cannot be.

[Sonia]

A Smart One?

OMG. Seriously, OMG. 🙄

_________________________

You wrote:

”So lets correct the inaccuracies in what you state Sonia

In India it's not that Gurudwaras have some special benefits. Trusts that manage temples, mosques, churches etc can also have tax exemptions. Comply with tax laws and any charitable/religious trust can avail of exemptions provided by the Income Tax Act.”

—Yes, TRUSTS... charitable trusts and gurdwaras get special tax exemptions.

”Yes, if you ask for langar at a gurudwara you will not be denied but this doesn't mean that every gurudwara has to have daily langar under some "Sikh Law". And Sikhs do not wage war on this.”

—Correct, so they gotta have it ready when the crowd gets there.

—OK, “the wage war” thing you clearly have no historical reference to (remember the uproar over destruction of Guru Nanak’s temple by RSSB?). It was a sarcastic way of saying the Sikhs would have another reason to get even more pissed at RSSB.

”Langar at Dera existed long before the Income Tax Act 1961. And the recent construction of a Gurudwara within Dera doesn't prescribe any langar facilities within Dera. At other centres too there is langar without the presence of any Gurudwara on the premises.“

—And??? Let me RE-EMPHASIZE:
That statement (“And I know the only reason RSSB keeps it free is because they’re required to by law”) was the short version explanation given by the RSSB tour guide.

“The RSSB langar serves just one purpose - sangat welfare.”

—duh. Charitable institutions do that kind of stuff.

“RSSB also isn't any Gurudwara cum charitable institution. It's simply registered as a charitable institution. RSSB has never aligned itself to any one particular religion.”

—A Charitable Trust.

—RSSB is registered as a religion in Australia, the United States and several other countries for tax purposes. Call it what you want. It isn’t aligned with any other religion because it is its own religion.

“Coming to the tax side of things - exemption is subject to conditions prescribed. So whilst langar is one such qualifying activity, it's a very small portion. So nothing stops RSSB to do away with langar and still enjoy tax exemptions. But it never will. Not because of some "Sikh Law/tradition" or fear of losing tax exemptions, but for the welfare of the sangat - especially the poor amongst it and which is a lot.”

—THAT is what charitable organizations do. WHAT are you trying to say???

“Gurdwara's also do not get 'tax relief' i.e. exemption or tax rebate under GST in connection with Langer consumables. Its a grant under another welfare program run by the Government to my understanding.”

—???? And???

“The GST registration number itself indicates that RSSB is not out of the GST ambit and I know for certain, it cannot be.”

—What is with this redundancy????

— What are you even saying here?? I am the one who posted the GST numbers. If you have a GST then you ARE paying taxes.

Posted by: A Smart One | January 12, 2020 at 07:16 AM

[Sonia]

This is how I feel most of the time when people try to explain or justify the actions and decisions of RSSB:

https://youtu.be/gcNKIGAodj8

[Sonia Taylor]

A Smart One,

I would never call myself “A Smart One” for obvious reasons... I’m not exactly brilliant. But since you probably have a little more book smarts than I do, please read this: https://www.financialexpress.com/economy/massive-relief-to-gurdwaras-modi-government-waives-gst-on-langar-items/1189939/

“Massive relief to Gurdwaras! Modi government waives GST on langar items
In a massive relief to Gurdwaras, the Narendra Modi government has decided to waive Goods and Services Tax on langar items on Thursday by providing financial assistance under 'Seva Bhoj Yojna'.”

Also, I’m one of the worst at proofreading and editing my comments and my grammar is often text worthy at best when I’m in a rush to comment. But, I’m guessing you’re not Indian and you don’t spend a lot of time at the Dera. Am I wrong? I only say that because it’s Gurdwaras not Gurudwaras.

[A Smart One]

Sonia,

I - What are you even saying here?? I am the one who posted the GST numbers. If you have a GST then you ARE paying taxes.

Me: wrong. I am an end user paying GST and I do not need to have a GST number. The registration/ number is REQUIRED when one charges GST in its Billings/for activities carried out by it. And this means RSSB certainly is and 'GurUdwaras' may not be exempt from GST - both input and output.

II - “GurUdwara's also do not get 'tax relief' i.e. exemption or tax rebate under GST in connection with Langer consumables. Its a grant under another welfare program run by the Government to my understanding.”

—???? And???

Me: and so you sending out that subsequent link really adds no value to me because the other welfare program I referred to was the 'Seva Bhoj Yojna’ which that referenced article talks about. Also this Govt initiative covers a range of charitable religious INSTITUTIONS which provide fee meals, prasad, hold langar and not only GurUdwaras which do so. It's an assistance provided and not tax relief from/under Tax legislation as you state.

III - That Dera MUST have a langar because of now a GurUdwara on its premises and/or a law requires it to be so :

Me: INCORRECT. Your post of January 9th is unfortunately erroneous. No legislation or law requires RSSB to hold free langar as you stated. Fyi, RSSB can continue to enjoy tax exemptions even without holding langar. And hey should it not just be langar and not free langar? In Sikhism langar means free meals, right.

IV - Dera Tour guides - source of information and basis of an opinion held. Not a good idea.

V - Seva Bhoj Yojna’ is a Central Sector Scheme of the Ministry of Culture, Government of India. It envisages to reimburse the Central Government share of Central Goods and Services Tax (CGST) and Integrated Goods and Service Tax (IGST) so as to lessen the financial burden of such Charitable Religious Institutions who provide Food/Prasad/Langar (Community Kitchen)/Bhandara free of cost without any discrimination to Public/Devotees.

Type of activities supported under the scheme

Free ‘prasad’ or free food or ‘langar’ / ‘bhandara’ (community kitchen) offered by charitable religious INSTITUTIONS like Gurudwara, Temples, Dharmik Ashram, Mosques, Dargah, Church, Mutt, Monasteries etc. Financial Assistance will be provided on First-cum-First Serve basis of registration linked to fund available for the purpose in a Financial Year.

Words to be noted are Temples, Mosques, Church and few more and not just GurUdwaras and 'financial assistance'. No new law giving tax relief/ tax exemption and that too to just GurUdwaras.

VI - RSSB is a religion in itself.

Me: Maybe for you Reality being your opinion / belief doesn't change what its teachings are or stand for. RSSB a Religion one day in the future -------> probably yes. Just like how other religions evolved. At the moment.... Luckily not.

VII - Your unnamed sources are wrong too.

VIII- And why look at Gurdwara or Gurudwara when it actually could have been 'Gurduara' (per original teachings) which means through or by means of a Guru. For a Sikh isn't everything achieved by means/ by grace of the Guru!!!!

[Sonia Taylor]

A Smart One,

Misspelling Gurdwara multiple times is like using Chuurch instead of Church. There are some things you just don’t repeatedly misspell if you have a fair amount of knowledge on the subject.

I was originally going to start and end with that but I didn’t want to sound like a total Smart Ass.

And sure it can also be spelled Gurduara as Soami can be spelled Swami. But you’re never going to see Swoami.

[Sonia Taylor]

A. S. O.,

“Me: INCORRECT. Your post of January 9th is unfortunately erroneous. No legislation or law requires RSSB to hold free langar as you stated. Fyi, RSSB can continue to enjoy tax exemptions even without holding langar. And hey should it not just be langar and not free langar? In Sikhism langar means free meals, right.”

Me:
And most importantly, you’ve built this whole case around my original snide remark and a follow up sarcastic remark not to mention the RSSB tour guide’s shorthand way of explaining the situation to Westerners.

Really, I think you should be having this conversation with her. She knows more about the Dera and Punjab than almost anyone. She well educated and is the official tour spokesperson who speaks English quite fluently and has been educating Satsangis about the Dera and local area for years.

Pleeeez, just go to the Dera and take an official tour. You will get all of your tedious questions answered there. I don’t have time for this ridiculousness.