Fact gap in the Singh brothers and RSSB guru financial fraud saga

A few days ago I wrote about the latest turn of events in the fascinating drama of two once-billionaire brothers (Malvinder and Shivinder Singh), their guru relative (Gurinder Singh Dhillon), and the guru's right hand man (Sunil Godhwani). 

In that post, "Delhi Police financial fraud charges point to RSSB guru's involvement," I noted that there is a fact gap between the Singh brothers and Godhwani being charged with money laundering, and the apparent funneling of much, most, or all of that money into the pockets of Dhillon, his family and close associates.

So important questions remain to be answered.

Such as: (1) Are investigators in India going to reveal who ended up with the money diverted into loans to shell companies, who orchestrated this financial fraud, and what the purpose of the fraud was?

(2) Assuming Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family were the ultimate beneficiaries of much or all of this money, will Indian investigators have the political backing to delve into the Dhillon family's involvement in the illegal money transfers and hold them to account if they were active participants in the fraud?

Another way of looking at this admittedly confusing, complex case is to recognize that there are criminal and civil components to it. The Delhi Police charges address the current status of the criminal component.

And the High Court of Delhi has been addressing the civil component in the course of trying to figure out how the Singh brothers are going to be able to pay a $500 million settlement they owe to Daiichi, a Japanese company that bought their Ranbaxy pharmceutical firm.

In July 2019 I wrote about the Dhillon family's role in this part of the case in "Delhi High Court requires recovery of money from RSSB guru." I shared a Business Today story in that post. Here's an excerpt from that story.

RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon, wife Shabnam Dhillon, sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet and daughter-in-law Nayan Tara Dhillon are among the 56 entities from whom Delhi HC has ordered recovery of monies Singh brothers-Malvinder & Shivinder-owe to Daiichi. Money will also be recovered from former Religare chief Sunil Godhwani and brother Sanjay Godhwani, according to the Delhi HC order.

BusinessToday.In had reported on March 12 that Singh brothers can only pay the $500 million order against them to compensate Daiichi, provided the money owed to them by RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family is recovered. In his submission, Malvinder has maintained that he can pay the arbitration order provided he can recover the money owed to him.

So we're left with the above-mentioned fact gap.

Malvinder, Shivinder, and Godhwani have been charged with money laundering. But Malvinder says that the laundered money, basically fraudulent loans, ended up with Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family.

Since the adage "follow the money" usually holds true in criminal financial conspiracies, loose ends will remain in this case until there's a definitive answer to who got the laundered money, why the laundering took place, and who organized the fraud.

There's a variety of ways to tie together what's currently known, or strongly suspected, in this case.

One of the best summaries was put together by Spence Tepper, a frequent commenter on this blog. Tepper appears to have modified his views to some extent, but I still consider what he wrote in July 2019 to be an excellent overview of the case, even though almost certainly it isn't a completely accurate description.

I shared Tepper's comment in a post called "Great overview of RSSB guru's financial fraud involvement." Here's the comment again. As noted in the post, I added some links and made a few corrections.

Hi Osho. You wrote, "I don’t think it’s a matter of 'guilty or not guilty' but more a matter of recovery of the money."

Logically that makes little sense nor does it reflect the High Court of Delhi order. The court determined responsibility, and therfore guilt, and on that basis moved guilt away from Malvinder and onto Gurinder and company.

The Singh brothers held the legal responsibility to pay the Daiichi FDA penalty against Ranbaxy. But the High Court transferred that to Gurinder and company in June.

Malvinder claimed that he and Shivinder had loaned money to Gurinder, his family and associates, amounting to more than enough to cover the penalty. At first the Supreme Court indicated that they didn't care about the Singh's other business dealings, and held them directly responsible for repayment.

But when Malvinder was unable to pay up he filed a criminal complaint with the EOW (Economic Offences Wing) of the Delhi Police pleading his case that Gurinder, his wife, sons and associates owed hundreds of millions of dollars in loans and interest and hadn't repaid for years. These were the monies he needed to pay the Daiichi penalty.

Malvinder went further to document his efforts, pleading repeatedly in writing with Gurinder to help, but with no response from Gurinder.

Even before Malvinder filed his complaint the SEBI and the Fortis board had conducted separate audits that showed fraudulent loans being siphoned through shell companies.

Business journals had conducted their own audits and found that Gurinder and his family were the recipients of nearly a billion dollars in loans through a variety of shell companies. And some of Gurinder's family were involved in the creation and maintenance of the frauds.

All the participants and recipients of the fraudulent loans are satsangis who pledged vows of loyalty to the Master, in this case Gurinder.

By June various additional detailed and indiependent audits had been conducted by the Serious Crimes Division of the Delhi police, the Securities and Exchange Board of India, and the new board at Religare (who filed their own complaint directly implicating the loan recipients and claiming this was all a big scheme involving several people who had knowingly participated in the construction and execution of several frauds).

Then in June, after much deliberation, the High Court of Delhi rendered a judgment that Gurinder, his family and associates, among others, were directly responsible for repayment of their delinquent loans, in full.

The High Court, essentially, verified what Malvinder claimed, and placed responsibility, and therefore culpability, directly onto Gurinder et al's shoulders. The High Court further froze Gurinder et al's assets as they were delinquent over several years in payment.

Guilt, culpability and responsibility have already been determined and payment ordered. For the funds Gurinder et al took, Malvinder is no longer responsible to repay that portion of the Daiichi penalty. The full responsibility is now directly upon Gurinder and company's shoulders, by judgment and order of the High Court of Delhi.

Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Comments

[Neon]

Is this living a moral life? Just askin'

[RSSB is FINISHED]

Neon,
this is a far cry from a moral life.
when you add up all the dodgy shit going on - it adds up to a huge pile of shit.
Let me just list a few things

1. the babani incident where poor satsangis who bought their flat were ordered to vacate and just given the deposit back. this is taking advantage of poor people. babani died a depressed and broken man once he realized he was mistaken when he had preached that the guru is not hungry for your money as he has the wealth of naam. clearly RSSB is after your money.
Refer to this for some details (comments by tara)
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/07/devastating-criticism-of-gurinder-singh-dhillon-by-a-rssb-insider.html

2. Malvinder's claim of a death threat

3. the Bollywood actor who loaned GSD a million and it was never repaid

4. the beas farmers who find huge pot holes in their land that appear overnight, just so RSSB can then buy their land cheaply because nobody else wants it

5. back in 2010, it was known that GSD and sons had suddenly become rich
Now it is becoming clear what really happened back then
It was the beginning of a joint fraud operation between the singhs and dhillons to siphon off money.

These are brian’s post from 2010

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/12/radha-soami-satsang-beas-guru-makes-250-million.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/04/the-big-money-surrounding-radha-soami-satsang-beas.html

6. memoirs of a seeker, a book by Sheena, points out the RSSB guru is now into money not spirituality. RSSB has lost its way and is now no longer a spiritual organisation
The list goes on and I could mention a lot more. The point is that RSSB has now become a corrupt organisation and there is no spirituality left.

[j]

"The EOW registered an FIR after it received a complaint from RFL's Manpreet Suri against Shivinder, Godhwani and others, alleging that loans were taken by them while managing the firm but the money was invested in other companies. "They put RFL in a poor financial condition by disbursing loans to companies with no financial standing and controlled by them. The companies to which the loans were disbursed willfully defaulted in repayments and caused a loss to RFL to the tune of Rs 2,397 crore," the police had alleged." https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/rfl-case-ed-charges-fortis-healthcare-promoters-shivinder-malvinder-singh-of-money-laundering-1635847-2020-01-10

I'd like to point out that "money laundering" is a very broad term that refers to any kind of misuse of funds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

The Dehli police are calling this scandal a case of money laundering, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've concluded that the Singh bros hatched this scheme as a way to make money.

As far as I know, neither Malvinder or any of the other parties involved in the scandal said they siphoned funds from the corporations for loans to Dhillon family members as a way for the Bros to make money. And from my view of this case, it doesn't seem likely that making money was the Bros motivation from this tortured scheme.

None of the currently incarcerated parties say the traditional definition of "money laundering" was the reason for the fund siphoning. That is, none of them have admitted to what many people are probably assuming -- that the scandal was done as a way for the Bros to somehow mitigate their corporation's financial losses.

What then did the Bros say was the reason for the "laundering"? Again, afaik, only one has spoken out on the reason. Malvinder:

"Fastening entire responsibility on Godhwani and his team for "mismanagement" of RFL, Malvinder Singh told the EOW that "the management changes at REL in July 2016 were done at the direction and instructions of Babaji”. Malvinder Singh has further alleged that "Religare and its subsidiaries owe money to RHC Holdings and not the other way around. Fern Healthcare, Modland (which are described as shell companies by the EOW) owe money to RHC Holdings and its subsidiaries and were fraudulently made part of the RHC Group without any diligence, valuation or any board approval. This was done by Shivinder Singh to shield Babaji and his family members to personally owe over Rs 1,000 crore to these entities."

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/company/corporate-trends/malvinder-and-shivinder-mohan-singh-used-public-money-to-settle-personal-liabilities-eow/articleshow/73507708.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

What I'm getting at is this -- don't let the phrase "money laundering" lead to you assume all fault lies with the Singh Brothers. The policy statements and revealed evidence do not put the Dhillon family above suspicion. And they have no come close to exonerating Gurinder. Here's why:

1) If the bros had a scheme to make money by "laundering" it through shell corporations, it makes no sense as a way to get a good return on investment. Therefore the odds are it wasn't done as an investment but as a gift to the Dhillon family.

2) The Dhillon family recipients of the money clearly had no expectation they'd pay the money back. As far as I know, they've haven't paid any of the money back that they've received as "loans."

3) The police revealed that the Dhillon family loan recipients were paid a salary for doing nothing besides being party to embezzled funds. So far we have no idea of the size of those salaries,

4) Malvinder has stated that this scandal was done at the direction of Gurinder Singh

5) All the parties involved in this cockamamie scheme were dyed in the wool RSSB satsangis who were obedient to Gurinder Singh.

6) According to at least one other source (The Indian filmmaker who loaned Gurinder over a million dollars), Gurinder Singh has a penchant for asking people for money and not paying it back.

7) When called to court, Gurinder made transparently false excuses for not showing up to explain his part.

I agree with Brian in hoping that the Dehli police focus on the actual instigators of this scandal. At this point, I'm not sure they have an interest in doing that.

[Sonia Taylor]

“Guilt, culpability and responsibility have already been determined and payment ordered. For the funds Gurinder et al took, Malvinder is no longer responsible to repay that portion of the Daiichi penalty. The full responsibility is now directly upon Gurinder and company's shoulders, by judgment and order of the High Court of Delhi.”

If this is true then why are Malvinder and Shivinder in jail while Gurinder and his family are free?

[Sonia Taylor]

Neon,

IMO no.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian!
Thanks for the reminder...and pointing to the gaps.
The significant newer evidence comes from the Religare audit and complaint, the crimes division's audits and, surprisingly, Gurinder's own submission of his own audit in his defense, that money not only went into Gurinders' family bank accounts, but circulated out of those accounts. The accounts were a laundry. But where did the money end up? Gurinder had asserted this was not his fault...though it raises the question about that, since, by his own disclosure, these were, in fact, his very own bank accounts.

The Bloomberg and other audits in the news showed the direction of money into those accounts, but not where it went after...And it isn't there now..It went somewhere.

But your most resent essay last week revealed the crimes' divisions results that in some cases none of the principles of the shell companies had signature on the loans.

The more recent movement of money suggests it was being used for investment purposes under the table, where short term stock purchase loans would not need to be registered.

What is Gurinder's role? Since all this money laundered through his accounts, by his own admission, certainly either passively or actively, he has some role. But we don't know how much of a role, other than obvious consent to let his bank accounts be used by others to move fairly large sums of money in and out in fairly short time intervals.

Unfortunately, the more investigators are challenged to follow the money, the more their audits must dig closer and closer to all things related to all Gurinder and his friends (Or into the FOG...Friends of Gurinder).

At some point it becomes a little absurd...I didn't take any money...Well, yes, millions came into my account, but then left, by other people's hands....Oh, yes, some of that did go back to me...to pay big loans made verbally....

etc. etc...

We left "innocent" some time ago. But now it's a matter of how passive or active were each of the players.

[Sonia Taylor]

I went to Satsang today for the first time in forever. The lady that hosts it is a very sweet friend and I promised I’d go before she left the country for a while.

Anyway, someone read a piece from an RS pub that said the Master isn’t trying to change the social system which is why he has different kinds of accommodations for different classes of people—politicians, westerners, villagers etc.

All I could think was this sounds like a caste system. There’s no reason my everyone who visits the Dera can’t stay in a Serai type accommodation. Maybe they could provide cots and blankets instead of having to bring your own from overseas—or not. People could bring sleeping bags. But there’s such a ridiculous class system within RSSB. And then there’s Gurinder’s home. I guess since he’s sort of confined to it and can’t really walk around the Dera without being mobbed it’s ok for it to be really large. But seriously, there’s definitely a class system in RSSB.

[Brian Hines]

j, excellent analysis. Sound reasonable thinking. It is indeed disturbing to think that the Delhi Police will cover up the instigators of this fraud, and the ultimate beneficiaries of the illegal loans.

What makes me feel somewhat optimistic is the civil side of this case, the requirement for the Singh brothers to pay Daiichi $500 million, and for some fifty-odd entities to repay the Singh brothers what is owed them so the Daiichi settlement can be paid.

Daiichi has a strong interest in recovering the loaned money, The High Court has garnished the assets of the Dhillon family and others, including the shell companies that were involved in the fraud. The Court also has required the RSSB guru and his family to answer questions from Daiichi.

Maybe I'm unduly optimistic, but I'm hoping that the High Court proceedings will end up casting a light on who ended up with the money, and maybe even how and why this happened. Gurinder Singh has been trying to live in the shadows of this case. It's time to bring to light the extent he and his family were involved in the fraud.

[j]

"The more recent movement of money suggests it was being used for investment purposes under the table, where short term stock purchase loans would not need to be registered."

In my view, and from the info we have at hand, the movement of money only suggests obfuscation as to the ultimate ending place of the money's whereabouts. There is no evidence circumstantial or otherwise that the money was used to short stock. I'm not sure why you keep bringing up stock shorting when (as far as I know) no news outlet or party to this case has mentioned this as an even a possibility.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi J
My conjecture isn't a conclusion.

We don't know yet where the money went or how it was used... Yet.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi J
My thinking goes a little further than the press to conjecture about how to actually pay off all the debt. That would require leveraging the siphoned money into marginal loans on a larger investment, hence stock. Very dangerous but in desperate times...

I'm not sure where the money went and I'm pretty sure the crimes division doesn't know either.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi J
Other key questions...
Is there a way an individual or individuals with the resources of FOG could leverage these corporate implosions, the predictable result of siphoning profits, to their advantage? So that they end up wealthier than beforehand?

It is a matter of constructing a scenario, a hypothesis, and then searching where that points to for evidence.

What has been bought and sold? Who has invested in short selling Fortis and Religare and who are they connected with? Where did their loan money come from?

[Arjuna]

Or "why" the money went. Keep an open mind Spencer😀.

Cause and effect - the WHY. Which we may never know or Need to know

[Sonia Taylor]

I really wish the Delhi court system would speed things up. I’m so tired of the delays and lies and political interference.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sonia
You wrote
"Anyway, someone read a piece from an RS pub that said the Master isn’t trying to change the social system which is why he has different kinds of accommodations for different classes of people—politicians, westerners, villagers etc."

" All I could think was this sounds like a caste system. There’s no reason my everyone who visits the Dera can’t stay in a Serai type accommodation. "

But no true Saint requires a large organization of any kind. Not rooms or even food. Then all this consumes and destroys the atmosphere that has nothing to do with a cast of thousands.

It isn't necessary to mirror the caste system or to even suggest leaving your home is necessary, as for so many that is a substantial hardship.

These urban myths, verbally decried but behaviorally supported and promoted are entitrely unnecessary.to grow closer to the divine mystery inside each of us.

When a True Saint engages in charity they are working in someone else's organization. Because their focus isn't building a spa. It's on Spirit 24 x 7. And that is a fairly small life by worldly standards. Yet it is a singular, undivided life.

Because such Saints have come to every land, the failure to befriend them falls to us. But it isn't actually a failure. We leave Hollywood when we are ready. We leave when we don't need the movie star.

[Spence Tepper]

Real Saints are here to teach us, by example, how to live and enjoy an exeedingly simple, comfortable life of modest means. Our pursuit of wealth is within, and that is where our treasure is.

[Sonia Taylor]

@georgy

Give me 3 specific examples of how GSD has tried to help me and I won’t say another bad thing about him.

[Spence Tepper]

Arjuna
It is better to have loved and lost, even bitterly, than never to have loved at all.

[Jesse]

"These urban myths" "True Saints"

Exactly. Erase the rest of that comment and combine those two phrases, and we're finally getting somewhere.

True saints are an urban myth.

Putting aside our baby bottles for adults known as "saints" for a second, does anyone think these new revelations in the normal man named Gurinder Singh and his friends' big scam case is clarifying or muddying the truth? Because it seems to me that the more news that comes out, the more obscure this whole thing becomes.

[Rasbeer]

Someone wrote 'RS Pub not trying to change social system'
Let me tell you all saints did their best to try to change social system to bring everyone at one platform

Sikh Guru started Langer, that was the one example of changing social caste system

RSSB will treat you better if you come from abroad, Rich and they know that you are going to donate a big sum of money or if you are a big political figures

NRI accomodation, NRI naam Daan, NRI seating arrangement in their satang.
There are many examples of like this while poor people struggle to find a place in Ders to stay, they even have to bring their beds with them

GSD living in a big luxurious accommodations, travelling in business class or chartered plane while his satsangis are suffering.

You know Satsangi is big world means who live with truth but GSD not even a satsangi..he lied to court and make excuses also first denied about any financial transactions and then accepted. He lied that he is only living on his $100 pension in front of thousands people

People if still want to believe in that man than l can only express my sympathy with them.

As long as present investigation concern , l have really a big doubt that truth will ever come out. GSD has strong ties with Indian ruling party BJP and even shared stage with Indian Prime minister Modi. He also have strong ties with other Party Congress, for their leader Sonia Gandhi he even built Helipad in Dera when she was visiting there.
So there is no other party which can come in the power in india ..so don't make your hope high...

Rest Karma might take their effect..loosing wife might be the first step of Karmas but not sure as karma theory is very complex

[BALJIT BRAR]

There has been much more fundamental destruction of the spiritual ethos of the cult.

I have been associated with this system since 1976 when Maharaj Charan Singh was at helms. The contrasts between THEN and NOW are too many and at different levels.

It has personally been too dis paraging to me to come to terms with the EXISTING realities of today.

Would like to share further on a future date.

I have tried my best to be honest with the core of my understanding of the issues.

[Sonia Taylor]

I’m disgusted by the caste system at Dera. Plain and simple. I’m not impressed with the Master’s wealth in the very least. I suppose he hoped he could impress many influential people with it but it turns my stomach.

[Sonia Taylor]

God how I wish he’d marry some Bollywood actress half his age and appoint a billionaire successor so that people could see what he’s really all about—status and luxury. I was going to try to stop talking about him but this is probably the most true thing I’ve ever said about him.

[Baba Land Grab]

Indians living in India are not allowed to buy agriculture land unless they are certified farmers,even then maximum one certified farmer can hold is 10 acres .There is a reason for this,all farming income is tax free .
GSD (spanish citizen) unlwfully registers as a agricultarist and unlawfully swallows up agriculture land of 22 villages of more than 8000 acres that gives him a tax allowance eqivlant of 800 farmers who stay within the law.RSSB further diverts river beas flloding many other villages so they can buy land at fraction of the market value https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqEPzLQLIok

[Pritam Das]

I have followed RSSB for many years and it has clearly been in decline for a while. The satsangs are no longer inspirational, just people with no experience talking nonsense on stage.
The sevadars have no respect for people and just order them around.
I dont see any love there.
When the guru comes to the UK, people just go there for a laugh to hear the comical questions and answers. Nothing spiritual there.
Seva is just free labour. I am not even sure why anyone does it anymore.
I dont see anything spiritual about RSSB anymore.
With the current scandals its becoming clear that its all a big con.
run, man, run, as fast as you can. as far away from a satsang centre as you can

it's a cult and full of brainwashed people who are spiritually lost. The sevadars just go there to pass time because they are retired and have nothing else to do in their life

[Anna]

These all are ways of divine souls to convey the message that it is kalyug and any one can be bound by any kind of limitations so keep your calm while treading the path like lotus..

[Ana]

Hi Baljit Brar,

What exactly do you mean when you say, “There has been much more fundamental destruction of the spiritual ethos of the cult.”

I get the sense there is a lot more you want to say...

[Um]

@ Sonia

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=religion+in+decline&t=h_&ia=web

[Chadd Brandon]

It's amazing to read these comments. If you all simply sat down everyday and repeated the words and listened during bhajan time, no matter how many months or years it took you, you would know who The Master is, but it seems pretty obvious people enjoy speculation, rumors and gossip rather than doing what it takes internally to prove the teachings and The Beas Masters are who they say they are. But carry on. After all, it is much easier to look for fault and complain and blame than it is to be patient and sit for meditation day in and day out for years upon years.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Chadd
If your own inner experiences verify for you the actual state of the Beas Masters that can only be because this is your experience. And that is your own direct source of information. And it is to be honored.

But that experience, while inspiring to some, isn't actually verifiable.

We can each repeat the effort as you have, but different people have had different results. I think it is presumptuous to assume they did not work just as hard and sincerely as you. Maybe they worked harder. Maybe they did find some truth after all that work, though painful and disappointing. A truth you haven't yet reached.

That Gurinder's bank accounts had stolen funds moving through them is a matter of verified fact. Even Gurinder acknowledges this, though he blames others.

That doesn't mean we know any more about who Gurinder is. I love Gurinder and am a Satsangi. But what my meditation has taught me is to be a better listener, a better student.

So inner experience is s beautiful thing. For many of us it is our life's work.

My inner Gurinder admits to all this with a huge smile, as if it's all perfectly normal, just another day in paradise, but won't explain any of the details. It's all above my pay grade, I guess. That's part of my personal experience.

But facts of any kind should not be dismissed, positive or negative, or even without any value at all.

We don't know all the facts yet. But what we do know warrants investigation and appropriate action.

Theft is a harmful act, and a Satsangi should never dismiss harm to anyone by anyone.

[Frisbee]

There is something I do not understand about these posts and the blog in general. I am sure Brian and others will explain, for the impression is that may be a slight bias against the RSSB Guru and the teachings of St Mat?
No one path or line of teachers has ever existed in continuous succession, Guru's appear, some line of Guru's may develop, then after some generations, that line disappears. Maybe its just one teacher, maybe the Guru role passes on from one generation to the next. When the line extends from generation to generation, then a similar pattern can appear in those who follow, being born into an Indian family of satsangi's will influence and we find so many followers who have followed not because of any other reason than their parents. Witness the Q&A sessions, how many ask for his Grace, yet how many even obey the simple request to not ask more than one question?
Sure, there are many many aspects of RSSB that could form the basis for more than reasonable doubt, the way the Master appears to behave and the way the disciples appear to behave - I use the word 'appear' to emphasise that which we observe, not to cast doubt !
Yet what do this blog members say to those who have been initiated, who have pursued the practice of meditation as instructed, and have experienced the inner light and sound with an intensity of experience that overwhelmes, that is more real more vivid more wonderous than our waking reality? What do this list members say to those who have met the radiant form of the Master?
I suggest that it would be impossible to try to rationally convince those who have had this experience that it was not real, and on what basis could such an argument be made?
I suggest that such a person who experiences or has experienced this would not listen, or care for the logical argument of those on here, and certainly not waste time to comment on here.
The question perhaps that each reader should ask themselves is whether it is best for them to seek solice by reading the opinions of others in same boat, or to seek solice by finding their own boat?

[Osho Robbins]

"My inner Gurinder admits to all this with a huge smile, as if it's all perfectly normal, just another day in paradise, but won't explain any of the details."
- Spence Tepper

The question is, Spence, are you open enough to drop your world view and perceive a different perspective in which "good" and "bad" are not absolutes that exist in the world - but are human created perceptions and based on acquired beliefs.

one simple example: The muslim eats meat only if the blood is slowly drained away. This is called HALAL and for the muslim it is of paramount importance. As important as the RSSB satsangi concept of not eating any meat, fish or eggs.

A sikh it totally against the idea of HALAL and prefers CHATKA meaning if you do kill the animal, do it in a Humane way - don't prolong the agony of the animal.

Now to each of these two (muslims and sikhs) their own view appears to the true view.

They think it is a fact.

To a satsangi, eating meat/fish/eggs is categorically WRONG, like it is a BLACK/WHITE thing.

There is no middle ground.

In the same way - murder is considered WRONG
again - absolute.

but what if someone is trying to kill me, or my family and they are much bigger and stronger than I am and guess what? I just happened to have a gun close by.

Would I pull the trigger, or let him kill my family / me?

of course, I would pull the trigger, if not to kill, then at least to stop him from acting.

but what if the shot was fatal and he died? Am I a murderer?
is what I did WRONG?

Or is it okay if it is in self defence?

The real question goes much much deeper. What is wrong? it is set in stone?
or just a perception.

it's normal to think about right / wrong in a certain way because that is our conditioning.

but in the absolute sense - right / wrong and good / bad are made up and not real.

For example what happened to me at Haynes is not an absolute BAD / WRONG thing.

That is simply my perception because I like the idea of being able to go to haynes without getting punched in the face. I think that is reasonable - but obviously I was mistaken in that
belief. Reality has no obligation to conform to my thinking.

I would like to think
1. blah blah blah
2. blah blah blah

but it's not reality

I am sure the singh brothers went into business with the dhillons with some pre-conceptions
but reality is different

watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P_Kvx5uC2I

7 mins into the video: Good and evil are a creation of your mind
meaning that YOUR MIND creates the perception.

example; FRED dies.
he is my enemy - I can't stand the guy.
I tell you, all excited, "Hey, Fred is dead - great news"
but as it happens - Fred is your best friend and he owes you $10,000 and was going to pay you today
so - the same news is BAD news for you and GOOD news for me

The death of fred is a neutral event - neither good nor bad
but your connection to fred determines if is perceived as good or bad by you

me getting punched in the face at haynes was perceived as BAD by ME!
but some satsangis think it was GOOD.

actually it was a neutral event - all events are neutral in nature

so from this perspective - the inner gurinder can laugh because it's all neutral.
but there is no way he can explain it to you unless you are open to drop all your beliefs
about what is good and bad

which is unlikely - because beliefs are conditioned into us and appear to be true
hence you inner gurinder speaks not

[Osho Robbins]

Just to be clear, the above comment by me to Spence is not meant to condone or support illegal or immoral acts but simply to point out that ultimately it's all a perception

For our society to function, we create certain rules and laws and they determine what we generally consider to be good / bad and right / wrong and moral / immoral etc

I can't say to a judge in a court of law - "hey dude - there is no right or wrong here - its just a perception"
Well - actually I can - but I am sure i would just get locked away

So I went to the police when the sevadar refused to return my phone because according to the laws of the UK, that is a crime, regardless of what the sevadars might think or perceive.

theft, murder, taking my phone - none of it is inherently bad. however for an orderly society to function we have to create laws to stop behaviour that would disrupt normal life, otherwise there would be chaos.

Animals, for example, steal and kill each other all the time.

Actually, so do we steal from animals and kill them - and don't consider that "wrong"

[j]

"The question perhaps that each reader should ask themselves is whether it is best for them to seek solice by reading the opinions of others in same boat, or to seek solice by finding their own boat?"

This is an ancient line from the guru apologist handbook, and it's been used to defend every religion from the Catholic church to Eckankar. It boils down to asking the faithful to turn a blind eye to wrongdoings in the name of "higher" religious and moral values.

My response to the question is "why not both"? That is, why not seek to be a better person and pursue good works, prayer and meditation, while also participating in forums like these (or should I say this, as it's the only one left anymore) that alert others about religious leaders succumbing to the temptations of power? There is surely time enough in the day for both keeping tabs on a guru's behavior and 2.5 hours of dhyan.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho
You wrote
"The question is, Spence, are you open enough to drop your world view and perceive a different perspective in which "good" and "bad" are not absolutes that exist in the world - but are human created perceptions and based on acquired beliefs."

Here you have hit a nail on the head. I'm very big on right and wrong. My inner Master, Maharaji, and my inner friend Gurinder both don't have those distinctions. But I personally can't quite figure it out. I'm bound by duty to identify and fix harm. It's my work career also. But the doctor who was harming becomes a doctor who is now helping, so in that sense there are no bad guys, just good guys in development.

[Spence Tepper]

So, Osho, this leads to a lot of daily stress. I see problems and challenges all the time, things are pushing against progress, they feel wrong, patients may be harmed, and I have to figure a way through without pushing back. A way to help others move forward, deal with the data showing bad stuff, or at least painful to look at statistics. Stuff they would rather not see. I give all these things to Master. Then either the people transform into friends or they change their position or I just see it differently, but the road becomes smooth and level, at least for the day. Somehow we get to agreement and progress. But generally I have to give up and give it all to Master to get there.

I have to give up my perceptions every day, the same perceptions that give me insight also take me into a ditch of error. But I have perceptions every day, so the cycle doesn't end. I'm just getting better at moving through it.

[Um]

@Frisbee

Well, it all depends what the person having an experience is doing with it.

Some cannot handle these experiences and and up in an asylum or worst in a coffin.
If what they say is not appreciated by the ruling powers, both worldly and religious they might end up in the asylum, be burned, crucified and whatever torture one can imagine.

The prophet, when he started to speak up about the experiences of the archangel Gabriel, was considered first insane but in one way or another he managed to deal with the situation and family and friends became his disciples.

If human beings are waking up in terror rom their dreams, are not able to withstand the commands of voices in their heads, how could they withstand the reality of OBE, NDE etc

The experience matters only to the person that has it!!

BUT … if he tries to "SELL" the experience on the cultural market as genuine and addressing all of humanity, the answer should be …

well, You had your experience, we will not argue about it as neither you can prove you had it nor can we prove the opposite.

But let me add this much to it …. the same figure that was an reality in your experience, never told me or anybody else, that what you relate is the truth and nothing but the truth and that we should heed your words.

If we do act upon your words its mere hearsay, accepted because it suits a personal need for a solution or a problem we have. ….. in this life or the hereafter

[um]

@ Osho
There was a man in a mental urgency ward, speaking in tongues causing some troubles. The well trained, and elderly experienced nurse, helt a bunch of keys before his face and rang them, saying ... look, it doesn't matter whether you are right or wrong but if you want to leave this room you have to speak my language and behave according our rules. … and she left.

Long ago walking with an seasoned Indian satsangi we came to discus the fact that onerhip is not an attribute of a tree ...he smiled and said … that is true only s long as it is not YOUR tree.

[Osho Robbins]

@Um
yes all that is true, hence the second comment I left.
as soon as the "I" enters, it taints everything with a view of "How does this affect me"
so now everything has a value, a good/bad rating

if my car doesn't start today - it's only "bad" for me - inconvenient. It is not bad for all others - they really dont care. So the event is not bad in itself - only when the "I" (personal viewpoint) enters.

So the RSSB goings on dont affect the "inner gurinder" as he is quite safe in a non-body state.
So naturally it's just another day to him.
The embodied gurinder has to deal with it - so it's not "good" from his viewpoint.

comes back to what Shakespear wrote - nothing is good or bad - but thinking makes it so

[Um]

@ Osho
If one enters a place that is considered "theirs" and not "yours" … THEIR values etc rules.

Some, maybe many, people fail to understand that, because they tend to act, wherever they go, as if they are at home ..."THEIR" home . so that they can feel comfortable.

In order to be free in the public domain, one has to do ones best NOT to draw attention from others, certainly those who are given power …. one of the main reasons is that those who are given power, legally, might use it according their own mental pleasure.

Writing it reminds me of an incident with his uncle … softly saying in the car … In Rome we do what the romans do. Mind you he didn't say "we become romans" … No... we just act as them so that we remain FREE …. Freedom can also mean … refraining from acting.

P.S.
At home we were not allowed to bring up religious and political issues when having an argument with family members … now I would like to add ..the word EGO, ego matters.
I "hear " my dad laughing

[Trevor Smith]

But what my meditation has taught me is to be a better listener, a better student.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | January 27, 2020 at 10:55 PM

Which is why 2/3rd of the posts in here are by you.

Indeed an ever improving listener and learner (student)

And of what i make from your posts - YOUR inner GSD is a fake - a made in China imitation Rolex!!!!

The real inner GSD is way beyond your grasp.