« Money laundering case leaves questions about Dhillon family involvement | Main | Don't be 100% sure about anything, including God and life after death »

January 14, 2020

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Hi Brian,

Congratulations on your mini-enlightenment🥳

For those of us who haven't had one,
Can you please clarify the following;
1) What do you mean by 'right here and now'? Can it be defined more clearly.

2) You wrote,
"But when my mini-enlightenment hit, I realized that no matter what happens in my life, no matter what I do, no matter if pain, pleasure, or anything in-between becomes my lot -- in a very real sense, it's all the same."

Is it really all the same? How?
Kindly clarify.

This seems to be yet a new phenomenon of an unchanging reality, or so it seems?

Ha ha! Love the socks!

“This, right here and now, that's all there is, and will ever be. Experiencing that truth had an immediate emotional impact on me. Namely, relief.”

What synchronicity. I’ve had several close friends talk about this very same thing just recently (although their interpretations of the here and now were very different) and how much it centered them. They each said that they try to make the “now” stretch out a little longer each time they practice being in the moment. And for me, being in the now or in the moment is a place somewhere outside of time.

My mini enlightenment is seeing that there is no here and now. It was a long time ago, and we are living through the playing of a symphony recorded so long ago no one remembers the musicians alive when it was recorded. But everyone is singing that old tune as if they had just invented it. They are all laughing at a joke as if they had just heard it, but in truth they've heard that joke in one form or another over and over for over one hundred thousand years. We are all museum fossils long dead, dreaming the dreams ghosts dream who died several hundred thousand years ago. And saying this is here and now.

We are fossils who lived once hundreds of thousands of years ago. But we lost our life far back in antiquity. We are merely fragments of old bones buried deep in the darkness under ruins of layered and fossilized earth. We are entirely immobile, static, in a dream of life that is just a video recording that runs on a continuous loop. Because we are long deceased we don't recall how many times, hundreds of thousands, that we've watched the exact same movie.

Spence said: "My mini enlightenment is seeing that there is no here and now."

Yes!

"From the very beginning not a thing is"
- - Huang Po

What we perceive right now is already past. By the time an object, thought or feeling is sensorially perceived via neural pathways it is already a memory. It isn't real. The perceived is gone like it never was. What IS is the awareness "between" perceptions so to speak. It never arrived and it never left. This is what we are. Immutable, inconceivable, ever present, but never known. Unborn and undying IT is the reality we eternally are.

tucson this is very 'enlightened' to be able to view existing as being in a wakefulness dream.

Surely these are but intellectual concepts which the sharpened intellect can assume it can conceive the mind which powers its own very thought?
To be able to view the mind in its real state of timelessness one would need to have stilled it to its primary state at a very high level.

I don't think intellect is capable of knowing or understanding mind beyond memory, beyond manas buddhi chit and ahankara faculties of mind, (consciousness, intelligence / intellect, memory, ego / i'ness)

Whodunit wrote in quotes:

"Surely these are but intellectual concepts.."

-- Yes, of course.

"..which the sharpened intellect can assume it can conceive the mind which powers its own very thought?"

-- What is pointed to is not conceptual or of mind. Mind is just the only tool available to indicate that which transcends it.

"To be able to view the mind in its real state of timelessness one would need to have stilled it to its primary state at a very high level."

-- Here it is assumed the mind is the source of itself. Mind, whose function is dependent upon objectivization of relativity, and therefore functions solely within time, is not the required "tool" for recognition of that which was indicated.

"I don't think intellect is capable of knowing or understanding mind beyond memory, beyond manas buddhi chit and ahankara faculties of mind, (consciousness, intelligence / intellect, memory, ego / i'ness)."

--Yes. However, mind may realize that something transcendent of it was perceived even though that perception is beyond the limitations of mind to express.

There is the taste of an apple but can a speaker convey the actual taste of the apple to the listener? All that can be conveyed is that there is a taste that the listener must experience for itself to know it.

I don't think intellect is capable of knowing or understanding mind beyond memory, beyond manas buddhi chit and ahankara faculties of mind, (consciousness, intelligence / intellect, memory, ego / i'ness)

Posted by: Whodunit | January 15, 2020 at 02:26 PM

After you have your experiences in meditation are you able to sustain that level of consciousness when aren’t meditating? Because that would be important.

Hi Sonia
You wrote
"After you have your experiences in meditation are you able to sustain that level of consciousness when aren’t meditating? Because that would be important."

The answer is no.

The human brain is too constraining, and set up for entirely different experience and functioning. We are tiny brains.

Hence the necessity of continuous practice, continuous prayer.

You can retain the peace, the harmony, the joy. These translate into emotion and insight when you return here.

But there is an entire life there. There is beyond Karma. And a lifetime's work simply to retain something, some impressions in this brain that is geared to dismiss and forget those things altogether.

We have forgotten much much more that we once knew, and know there, but not here.

We don't change our personality much. There we are entirely different. But here we must slog through the muddy vestures of this bag of chemicals we call brain and body, functioning within our limited prejudices and biased conditioning, struggling to overcome the smallest of habits. Life is mostly guesswork here, and obviously filled with mostly bad guesses.

It's a universal condition. At best we can escape for a while. But when we return we find that this this place, and our place in it is the same.

Hence the necessity of vigilance and practice, to keep the door open for our next visit within, with our Master. That's our source of happiness. And when we do that, then some of that happiness we bring back, and we build our life here around that.

But 99% of who we really are, no, that cannot fit into this.

@ After you have your experiences in meditation are you able to sustain
@ that level of consciousness when aren’t meditating? Because that
@ would be important.

A modern mystic asserts that when a meditator attains
the highest state ("totality of consciousness") he/she
remains at that level and in fact operates at all levels
of consciousness at once. The mini-enlightenment
becomes maxi.

* * non proselytizing disclaimer
Brian Ji, the mystic citation below is included only for
examination as an unproven assertion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLnwSW9gOTQ&t=31s
(most relevant at minutes 13-15)
* * end of disclaimer

You can operate at either state once you have learned the art of dying to the lower state, then you have capacity to operate in both the waking state (body) and higher state (beyond body).

In advaita terms there is conscious background that underlies and transcends the three common empirically derived states of consciousness of waking consciousness, dreaming, and dreamless sleep which are experienced by human beings in our bodies.

Once mastered the art of access to the super conscious behind the world of empirical experience you can withdraw from waking to awakened at will and utilize your experience to detach from the anxiety of your finite self.

Even Buddhists acknowledge higher consciousness states though most modern atheist decry the existence of such, while they proclaim to adopt a Buddhist approach to their atheism.

The taste of the apple is 'subjective' to the taster, only the taster can know its taste.

Many who taste it can attribute their experience to corroborate the sensation, yet language is inadequate to actually translate the experience other than by describing the sense of the taste.

Similarly those who 'taste' of a nectar beyond senses can only describe it in language to closely resemble the experience in sensational terms, other than that the only available transfer of corroborating the experience is via intellectual mind which is inadequate to convey it in reality.

Hi Dungeness:
You wrote:
"A modern mystic asserts that when a meditator attains
the highest state ("totality of consciousness") he/she
remains at that level and in fact operates at all levels
of consciousness at once. The mini-enlightenment
becomes maxi."

Puri describes what he has seen within, at about 27-28 minutes, but then also relates that when her returned here he questioned what he recalled of that experience. He says it may seem dreamlike. This is the traditional level of experience, until we achieve, through much practice, much vigilance, that permanent foothold. So it's easy to discuss the PhD, but the answer to Sonia's question really would be what she can expect from the effort, and probably for many years.

It is misleading to suggest things experienced within are automatically retained.


To stabilize the experience takes longer, much longer to achieve (about 31 minutes in...)

Stages.

And then he speaks about stabilizing that experience. That is a process, not instantly, not immediately.

As for our meditation, we aren't going to become all powerful. We are going to become less powerful, less inflated, smaller. As we connect, we realize the immensity of everyone and everything else. You could say it is all ours at that point. That much you can see we retain through everything. But our will is the will of a grain of sand. So, even that goes away, and we are happy to adopt the larger will.

You will notice that Puri says the Perfect Living Master never claims to be perfect or a perfect Master. The true Saints won't even allow anyone to claim such things. And it is only in blind faith anyone would believe it. Teachers with titles can't get away from this basic hypocrisy. And this is way perfect teachers of Spirit never claim the position nor accept the title.

One more point, Dungeness.
Some Satsangis bemoan that they can't have a close relationship to the Master, in this modern era with so many millions.

But the title is part of the reason for it. Organizations, speaking tours, videos..
These are instruments of organization and mass production. True Saints have nothing to do with them.

Their friends are their disciples. No one else. And so there is always and only intimacy. You don't mass produce spirituality.

And with your friend you can share everything. They are there precisely when you need them. And there are no masses of followers to limit their time.

They have their daily work, but by keeping things small, their friendship and availability is great. They don't speak about the big picture. Just your experience.

Spence comments,.....,” You will notice that Puri says the Perfect Living Master never claims to be perfect or a perfect Master. The true Saints won't even allow anyone to claim such things. And it is only in blind faith anyone would believe it. Teachers with titles can't get away from this basic hypocrisy. And this is way perfect teachers of Spirit never claim the position nor accept the title.”

Me: So how could some one claim to know such things, with out being a PLM him self? He claims PLMs operate right here, from Sach Khand in Totality of consciousness, as they speak in the present. Do you believe Ishwar Puri is a PLM that has Sawan Singh walking side by side with him, most of the time, telling him who he can initiate , as they sit before him? Come on, Spence, Whodunit, and any one else that REALLY believes Ishwar Puri is in Sach Khand with Sawan Singh most of the time! If he is, I wonder why he will never tell us where Charan and Gurinder are?
Sri M comes from a completely different Path, and has even more strange stories, of his Guru, “ Babaji” and Guruji”, materializing from the Astral to physical Forms, before him, then disappearing, or bilocating , to different areas, ages, and people, at the same time. He even claims to have a big Snake appear in a Craft, and hiss speak to his Guru, Babaji. Sri M should be on David Lane’s future debunking articles.
Jim S.

"This, right here and now, that's all there is, and will ever be. Experiencing that truth had an immediate emotional impact on me. Namely, relief".


Nice one Brian. You have all the commentators here hopelessly 'at sea' and leaving them with a long way to go to catch up with your direct insight.

"After you have your experiences in meditation are you able to sustain that level of consciousness when aren’t meditating? Because that would be important."

@ the answer to Sonia's question really would be what she can expect from the
@ effort, and probably for many years.
@ It is misleading to suggest things experienced within are automatically retained.

So far as I can understand, that's true. But I interpreted Sonia's
question to mean "is my consciousness developed well enough to
return to that level where I had that experience"... rather than to
retain details of any specific experience.

The objects seen or experienced in meditation are transient and
illusory, kinda like the Cheshire Cat and its disappearing trick. Only
the act of consciousness experiencing them is real. An advanced
meditator can return to that level where he glimpsed the Cheshire
Cat at once. All others will presumably take years.

@Dungeness

Thanks for the link. :-) I watched part of it yesterday and will see if I can watch the rest of it today. I wasn’t familiar with Ishwar but sounds like he follows Sant Mat. I could google to find out more... another RS group?

@Whodunit

“ Once mastered the art of access to the super conscious behind the world of empirical experience you can withdraw from waking to awakened at will and utilize your experience to detach from the anxiety of your finite self.”

So, that’s interesting... it’s kind of like exercise for the brain—muscle memory. I understand that it cannot be described and the taste is subjective and unique to the individual experience.

I believe meditation is essential for spiritual growth not to mention mental and physical well being.

I see the value but it sounds like for many it’s more like a drug at first. You experience the effects while you’re on it but can’t retain the effect when you’re not in a meditative state and apparently it takes a very long time until one can “access at will”.

@Spence

“ Puri describes what he has seen within, at about 27-28 minutes, but then also relates that when her returned here he questioned what he recalled of that experience. He says it may seem dreamlike. This is the traditional level of experience, until we achieve, through much practice, much vigilance, that permanent foothold. So it's easy to discuss the PhD, but the answer to Sonia's question really would be what she can expect from the effort, and probably for many years.”

It’s very interesting that Puri relates when he returned here he questioned what he recalled of that state, saying it almost seemed dreamlike. Which is interesting because that almost sounds like when he returned here it this state seemed more real.

Anyway, no doubt there is immeasurable value in meditation for anyone—atheist or believer, but sometimes I think certain belief systems negate the power of thought that every person has access to and in fact does actively use, for good or bad, every single day in our waking state.

I believe they are equally important. What use is a meditative practice if you don’t actively work to control your thoughts. As they say, thoughts are things. As a man thinketh, so is he. Your life is shaped by your thoughts.

Many spiritual practices that preach the practice of hours of daily meditation don’t always give the needed attention to teaching “correct thinking”. You can say a mantra all day long until you are numb but if you are not consciously retraining your brain to think differently then you’ll remain hardwired to act with the same knee jerk reactions.

It seems a lot of people believe that meditation (non thinking) will automatically correct your thing for you but that’s just not true. One has to work on the mind from both sides.

Anyway, that’s my opinion... and belief.

Brian,

This is my favorite part of your post:

“ I decided to take a photo of the just-after-mini-enlighentment moment in case I ever attain maximal Buddha nature, and those who revere me want documentation of something analogous to the Buddha's realization under the Bodhi Tree. Plus, I like how the sunlight illuminated the mat, and how marvelously the color of my Darn Tough socks matched the mat.”

😂

Dazzling and illuminating. Light and beautiful colors are almost hypnotic.

And, of course in our ode to Brian we will have this lovely picture. So symbolic of spiritual awakening. Shall we call it Sock Mat?

Ishwar Puri is not 'another branch' of sant mat unless you want to consider they are all branches from the same tree.

Ishwar Puri is the elder son of Prof. Lekh Raj Puri, a contemporary and friend of Julian P. Johnson (Path of The Masters).

LR Puri was a retired principal and professor of philosophy and English at Govt College Punjab, who served Great Master and wrote Radha Soami Teachings, a treatise on Soami Ji's life and commentary on his Sar bachan, and 2 volumes of Mysticism The Spiritual Path.

Professor LR Puri also had a younger son Janak Puri (Ishwar's brother) who was a friend and contemporary of Huzur Charan Singh and accompanied Maharaj Charan Singh on his early tours in the 60's to UK, SA and USA.

Ishwar Puri is professor of philosophy and attended Harvard University and started Isha foundation (institute for study of human awareness) more or less around the same time (perhaps little after) Alpert and Leary were experimenting with LSD. He is a US citizen based in Wisconsin. I have learned that he bestows initiation into same system of meditation as RSSB.

Hi Whodonit.
Ishwar's approach to linking folks to the sound current is a little different. He uses guided meditation in groups to help deliver his message, in addition to what appears to be a similar method of five words, focus on the Master and listening to the Shabd, for those he initiated. He tells his listeners that he is only doing the work assigned to him by Sawan Singh, his Master, hence the connection to Sant Mat, but not formally to Beas, though Ishwar and Baba Ji have lunched together occasionally when Baba Ji is in the U.S.

Interestingly, unlike Maharaji and Baba Ji, Ishwar teaches that the Master takes on the entire load of Sinchit Karmas of the disciple. Maharaji used to teach that the Master helps the disciple burn that through Meditation and only occasionally takes some Karma as the situation requires.

Hi Sonia
You wrote
"but sometimes I think certain belief systems negate the power of thought that every person has access to and in fact does actively use, for good or bad, every single day in our waking state."

Meditation is basically a mental activity connected to an expression of love to connect us to other parts of ourselves. Focused thought combined with sincere love can be very powerful.

The use of a belief system is to offer rules to simplify life and build life conducive to meditation, to peace and goodwill towards all. But these simple pieces of advice are given a status of commandments, and then people that are part of the organization invent punishments and privileges around these commandments, with other members of the organisation responsible to pass judgment. And these in time become urban myths and prejudices that harm. Just like running a company. And of course the whole original flower of sacred sentiment, kindness and brotherhood towards all, and the beautiful experiences, nature's own expressions of divine love, are completely trampled.

Well, I think the “Saints” have gleaned a lot of wisdom from meditation practice that they have shared over centuries with seekers and followers. They’ve taught the practice of meditation along with important principles that help one stay in an atmosphere of meditation. Things like acceptance and “Namaste”. And Charan used to say that if you understood how harmful anger is to the body you would never get angry (I’m paraphrasing). Maybe Great Master said the same. But one of them did for sure. I really should pick up a few of the books again. I like the writings of Kabir and a few others. And of course, Mirdad is an all-time fave.

So meditation yes. But there are insights one gains through meditation (I hope) that teach you how to react or not react, and how to behave and think and view life in a way that is conducive to a way of life that surrounds meditation.

So meditation yes. But there are insights one gains through meditation (I hope) that teach you how to react or not react, and how to behave and think and view life in a way that is conducive to a way of life that surrounds meditation.

Posted by: Sonia Taylor | January 16, 2020 at 05:50 PM

True.

And do read both Shams and Rumi if not done so.

Now RSSB too has a book on both.

Cheers

🌜🌞💥💖🦸🦂🐸🤶😈

@ Interestingly, unlike Maharaji and Baba Ji, Ishwar teaches that the Master
@ takes on the entire load of Sinchit Karmas of the disciple. Maharaji used to
@ teach that the Master helps the disciple burn that through Meditation and
@ only occasionally takes some Karma as the situation requires.


"Sinchit is sometimes taken over by the Saints".
--Letter 50, Spiritual Gems

I think by "takes on the entire load" Ishwar only means Master
manages Sinchit to ensure it doesn't become "soul crushing"
tonnage. At the Master's discretion, he helps the disciple burn
some (or even all of it) safely. Otherwise mystics assert the
enormity of Sinchit would entrap us forever.

To most CofC homey's though, this is all unproven speculation...
akin to wondering "how many angels can dance on a pin head".
Time lost that could be spent in pursuit of those real, ineffable
moments of mini-enlightenment.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been saved. Comments are moderated and will not appear until approved by the author. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Comments are moderated, and will not appear until the author has approved them.

Your Information

(Name is required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

Welcome


  • Welcome to the Church of the Churchless. If this is your first visit, click on "About this site--start here" in the Categories section below.
  • HinesSight
    Visit my other weblog, HinesSight, for a broader view of what's happening in the world of your Church unpastor, his wife, and dog.
  • BrianHines.com
    Take a look at my web site, which contains information about a subject of great interest to me: me.
  • Twitter with me
    Join Twitter and follow my tweets about whatever.
  • I Hate Church of the Churchless
    Can't stand this blog? Believe the guy behind it is an idiot? Rant away on our anti-site.