Yes, I've changed my mind about spirituality. That's a good thing.

Today a commenter on one of my blog posts said something astoundingly obvious -- that what I write about now is different from what I wrote about five or ten years ago.

Well, duh...

I'm constantly changing, as are we all. I learn, grow, evolve, change my mind, look upon things differently. 

Since I've published a book that consists of Church of the Churchless posts from the early years of this blog, 2004 to 2006, I'm well aware of how my approach to spirituality has changed since then.

If you read Break Free of Dogma, and naturally everybody should, you'll see that I've added a short introduction to each post that talks about how I look now at what I wrote back then.

That's because my own journey of breaking free of religious dogma was a gradual affair.

I can liken it to dismantling a Belief House that was built up over my 35 years of being an active member of a India-based religious organization, Radha Soami Satsang Beas.

It took me quite a while to figure out what parts of that Belief House still appealed to me, and what parts needed to be demolished because they didn't fit with my current understanding of reality.

Earlier this year I wrote "Changing your mind is a superpower. Use it." Here's excerpts.

I have a superpower. But unlike those with superpowers who inhabit the pages of comic books and the screens of movie theaters, my astounding ability is available to everyone.

It's called changing your mind. 

I'm sure you've used it  -- many times. After all, we change our minds about countless things during the course of our lives. For example, I've changed my mind about my...

Politics (Used to be conservative, now I'm a liberal).
Cars (I've gone from a 57' VW bug to a 2017 VW GTI, with many other makes in between). 
Marriage (Got divorced, then remarried).
Profession (Earned a master's in social work, then went into health planning/research).
Eating (Loved meat until I became a vegetarian in 1970).
Residence (Grew up in the country, then lived in cities, now back in the country again).
Religion (Was Catholic for a while as a child, then a believer in an Eastern religion, and now an atheist).

So how is changing your mind a superpower? After all, everybody does this, all the time. True, but since we're so used to changing our minds, it's easy to overlook how marvelous this ability is.

First, to change your mind you need to have one.

Rocks don't have minds. Nor do stars. Living beings, though, have various sorts of minds. We humans have a powerful one. Other primates, ditto, though to a lesser degree. Plants have some sort of cognizance, but probably not a mind. Computers are very adept at certain tasks, yet so far lack what we would call a "mind."

Thus people are able to learn, adapt, modify our thinking, feeling, intuition, and such.

Because very little of human behavior is controlled by instinct, we have the capacity to transmit knowledge between people and across generations. We can read Plato and understand a great mind that lived thousands of years ago, thereby altering our own.

One of the best things about being able to change our mind is how good it feels, and how freeing it is. 

...I'm not saying that change is always welcome, or even tolerable.

That isn't what I mean by changing your mind being a superpower. Sure, it is possible to reduce anxiety, fear, suffering, and such by altering one's thoughts and feelings, but I'm not aware of anybody who can remain completely unmoved by severe pain, disappointment, or loss. 

What is possible, though, is altering our psyche to embrace a new reality, even though it may be unwelcome. That's a superpower in and of itself -- the ability to say "This is...," no matter what those three dots stand for.

Here's some examples of what I mean.

On this blog I've been writing quite a bit about the legal, financial, and ethical troubles involving the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), Gurinder Singh Dhillon. I was a member of RSSB for 35 years, so I like to use this organization as an example of how religions can be wrong, and do wrong, since I'm so familiar with it. 

(If I'd remained a Catholic for 35 years, then became an atheist, likely I'd be using Catholicism as an example of bad religion.)

Fairly frequently commenters on my blog posts about the Dhillon family's alleged criminality will say something like, "Brian, when it turns out that the guru did nothing wrong, you're going to be unable to accept this." 

That really isn't true. 

Because I'm adept at changing my mind, if the Indian legal system ends up exonerating Gurinder Singh Dhillon, I'll accept that reality with very little trouble. In the same fashion, back in November 2016 it took a few days for me to fully accept that Donald Trump had been elected president of the United States.

But it didn't take long for my mind to adjust to a new reality.

Now I'm hoping Trump will be a one-term president. If that doesn't happen, and he is re-elected, I'll be disappointed. However, I won't deny that this happened. (I do worry, though, that Trump won't be able to accept the reality of a 2020 defeat.)

I'll end by noting that even though I'm used to many varieties of religious craziness after 15 years of regularly writing here on the Church of the Churchless, it still surprises me when a commenter expresses extreme surprise at how I could have changed my mind about the validity of the RSSB teachings after being a member of the organization for such a long time.

Often I'll ask them how many things they have changed their mind about during their lifetime. Have you stuck with the same job, same car, same residence, same friends, same political views? Almost certainly not.

There's something about religion that encourages a rigidity of mind that isn't nearly as evident in other areas of life. Members of some religions, like Mormonism or Scientology, will shun people who leave the religion. Yet if someone changes their mind in a way that leads them to join the religion, that's not only fine, it's marvelous. 

For many fundamentalists, mind-changing is a one-way street. It's great if you convert to their religion, yet horrible if you deconvert.

Strange? Yes.

But since just about every religion believes that it, and it alone, is privy to the eternal ultimate truth of the cosmos, this encourages true believers to denigrate anyone who embraces that religion, then chooses to leave it. I guess changing one's mind makes those fundamentalists fearful that their chosen faith really isn't true.

Which, almost certainly, it isn't.

I feel good about having changed my mind to realize this. It's much more pleasurable to accept reality as it is, or at least as it appears, than to cling to a rigid way of thinking that no longer makes sense to me.

Comments

[Sonia]

Well, reading this was certainly a breath of fresh air!

[Sonia]

I’ve had a sudden and profound change of my view on “spiritual experiences”. I don’t have the right to tell other people they’re not having a “spiritual experience”. But I do believe there’s a whole more going on there. Often we see what we expect to see or want to see. Doesn’t necessarily negate the experience but it bares questioning what’s really “real”.

[Sonia]

Jen, Dunge,

Another very important thing I’d like to add; my issues with GSD started years ago when I first visited the Dera. The issues I had with him at first were always how poorly he treated so many people. It infuriated me the way he would speak to people and how he would berate the sangat. So, for years it had nothing to do with me personally it was about the way he treats people. If you’re fine with him insulting so many people questioners and Satsangis well, that says a lot about you. I personally, don’t think it’s OK. Forget about me, he doesn’t treat people well. I wouldn’t be surprised if his wife actually committed suicide by overdosing while she was in hospital. I can’t even begin to imagine how horrible her life must have been.

[tucson]

Blog host wrote: "In the same fashion, back in November 2016 it took a few days for me to fully accept that Donald Trump had been elected president of the United States.. But it didn't take long for my mind to adjust to a new reality."

-- But you and your Trump hating brethren have not accepted that 63 million Americans did vote for Trump and he won in an Electoral College landslide. You have not adjusted to that reality and have wasted the Country's time the past three years despising him and frivolously, obsessively, uselessly trying to get rid of him.

[Jen]

Sonya, I understand your hurt and can see that you have compassion for other people's feelings, especially when being mistreated by GSD. If I was still a devoted satsangi I would probably feel the same.

I like looking up Zen quotes which help me along...

"Maybe when we can let go of the need to be understood,
We can move beyond judgement."

[Um]

The person that plays a role, a game, can change from game and role but h remains who he always was, like all appearances in nature, stones, plants, animals an humans alike.

A crow is born a crow, witness the world as such and will die as a crow.

Nothing changes.

The idea that things and people can and should change for the "better" has brought much misery upon them.

What changes is the intricacy of the cultural threats woven in the veil that humans throw over the world and themselves ….. …. but nature cannot be changed by humans they they are part of it and have no command over it … and … no undertstanding … they just used it, the effect of that can be seen…..no animal will bit his own leg.

Culture is an overlay that makes nature seen in different ways.

THE discovery of mystics, Zen Masters etc is that they finaly found what they already were from the beginning and then they laugh their heart out

[Jen]

Um, you say: "The person that plays a role, a game, can change from game and role but h remains who he always was, like all appearances in nature, stones, plants, animals an humans alike."

Don't think I agree with this. I am a different person now to who and what I was. From being very shy and insecure when young to becoming a satsangi because I felt lost and needed help even though I had a loving family and now don't feel the need to follow a guru, although grateful to the Sant Mat path. First a child, then a teenager, then an adult and now an old woman. Am I still the same person that I was when young? No, I am a totally different person and have changed a lot and it is still ongoing. Its probably because of the practice of mindfulness. I wonder what Zen Masters discover when they become enlightened? We are all One? Or we are all Nothing!

[Um]

@ Jen
We should respect our own findings in life and if yours let up to what you feel, so be it.

Personally I feel that we, as we are born, go through many experience as a witness. That changes our information about the world, how to deal with it, what might end up in an personality change.

The question you might ask yourself is "What changes" ?

You are old enough to have witnessed the interactions of humans in the world and how much pressure there was and is to change, change for the better. You will also have noticed how successful You were and others in that endeavor.

In nature everything that is born dies the same way .. why should humans be an exception?

If you have children you must have noticed that from day one on they were different and that what you saw then, is still there now even if they are 20 or older

That is my reasoning … until now there has been no reason to change that but it can be wrong also.

[Sonia]

Jen,

That’s a really great quote. That’s just it... it’s like you want to find at least one person who completely understands you. I think that’s why I’ve always been outspoken and overly communicative—I’m just trying to find one person who completely understands... as if that’s what it’s going to take to validate my very existence. But it won’t... and yet that’s really hard to accept. Emotional intimacy is what a lot of people crave believing it will “complete me”. Seems like it (if it really exists) is based on true understanding. It helps one feel not so alone. But that’s probably not a very realistic goal.

I always believed I would have it all figured out by the time I was 70. I don’t know why 70 has always been the “magic” number for me but somehow that got programmed into my head. And now, I talk to my mom who is 70 and she tells me she’s still learning and changing her way of looking at things almost weekly. Then I talk to my 82 year old mother-in-law and she says the same!

It kind of freaks me out. It’s like nobody dies having all the answers. It’s like imperfection is the most natural thing—perhaps more natural than perfection.

[Jen]

Sonia, really cool that both your mother and mother-in-law are still learning and changing... change is good.

Um, I think I understand what you were saying now, about life and nature, as you say, "everything that is born dies the same way", found this beautiful little video think you will like...

Alan Watts discusses Nothing... (4:29)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssf7P-Sgcrk

[Um]

@ Sonia
>It kind of freaks me out. It’s like nobody dies having all the answers. It’s like imperfection is the most natural thing—perhaps more natural than perfection.<<

Yes, that is as it is partaining things outside yourself. The moment you accept that everybody and everything is "perfect" as it is mot if not all questions lose there meaning. Perfect doesn't mean that whatever is, is what you like or other according your liking or the liking of others.

If you hate a crow because he is ugly black and has a horrible sound, that is alright but the crow is perfect as he is.

The idea that we can and should change for the better, whatever that might be, is the source of much misery in the world.

[Meditator]

Spirituality demands the realistic view of Life now and Death any second next and hence our commitment to beyond death issues primarily that we are bound to encounter any next moment

The salvation and becoming one with One are the advantages that it opens up as bonus. Changing lifestyles, altering view towards World around etc and even skipping spirituality may be as per ones taste, fantasy or success/ failure in each. But the final reality of Life chases us even then and always - that is its ephemeral nature.

Being spiritual or not hardly matters at the last moment. The exit is imminent. Therefore researching commandments. entered in Bible. Kuran, Guru Granth Sahib et al entered following empirical. conclusions .bby many Mystics may be a necessity than optional for some and accordingly search for a Perfect Master, meditation, bright lights , astral, causal, salvation, etc as obvious attractive remedies, now available, by and large, in holy/unholy alliance with Huge monies especially in India.

[Pema Tej]

Hi Sonia,

Is it fair to assume that you were a devoted Satsangi, and are now changing/evolving into a different way of perceiving reality as you experience it?

Thank you, just kind of curious about your background.

[Osho Robbins]

“All Change” says the voice over the speaker on the London Underground Train. And everybody disembarks the train. This train is changing direction or stopping here. So staying on the train is pointless.
Life happens in the same way. The only constant is change. Nothing remains the same, except the thinking of those who are doomed to live in the past. Only they expect things will remain the same forever.
If you don’t change with the times, you will get left behind.
RSSB has moved on. For better or for worse doesn’t matter. Some things are better and some worse.
Mostly people who don’t understand the nature of spirituality will interpret the changes incorrectly. Outer progress is not spiritual progress. Bigger and more centres are not a sign of spiritual growth. Jaimal was happy in a simple mud hut because his focus was spiritual. Now the focus seems to be in catering for more people.
However the quantity might increase but the quality has decreased.
True seekers of truth are rare.
Janak was a true seeker. He gave up his entire kingdom for the truth.
Ashtavakra was even rarer. The entire kingdom was his (given by Janak) and he gave it back because what use was the kingdom to him?
Worldly people value worldly assets. Spiritual people see it as pointless; they can take it or leave it, but it is not their focus.
I came across this video.

https://youtu.be/4MW-8Et6CBY

10 minutes into the video he says “the way I judge if a saint is a true saint is where does he take my attention to?”
If it’s on the outer wealth, that is his focus.
That’s not the reason to join a spiritual path. For the worldly people, that is their focus so for them it is the correct path.

[Spence Tepper]

If the mind is changing, that's a good thing. The mind is plastic, and as much as people want to believe they don't change, they do. We are adaptive creatures, hardly prone to principles. And even Principles are just a way to try to validate what we happen to like, to justify past decisions that in the light of today we wouldn't have made.

The mind reacts to information. As more information comes in, it develops a different picture. That's just natural.

Where you get screwed up is when you think you must believe the same things from the past because you are identified with them. Now you find yourself discrediting opposing views, rather than incorporating that new information in a reasonable way.

It is the death of the past, which is already dead, that allows for Truth to enter. At least today's truth.

So, if you see the Buddha on the road, just keep walking. Smile if you like, just to be decent.

But the Buddha your mind creates, him you should meet with compassion as an old beloved relative, and then consign to the flames.

"Change is not treason. Change is a process of growth."
—Eldridge Cleaver

[Spence Tepper]

Indeed, you won't even need to consign that old fellow to the flames. If you meet him with compassion and understanding from your view today, he will lay down and go to sleep, and fade into the beyond, with all the long forgotten and lifeless memories.

[Sonia]

@Um,

Thank you! I agree. At the core of our being—after all the changes we go through—the core is the same. And that is what’s perfect. But for most it requires a lot of change in thinking to realize that.

[Sonia]

Hi Pema Tej,

I answered your question on the open thread. :)

[Di]

Pure Spirituality is looking, experimenting, and finding one's unique path. It is finding inspiration, meaning, truth and connection. It is about growth and transcendence. Basically it is self-honesty and awareness.
IMO changing one's mind is allowed.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Di
You write
"Pure Spirituality is looking, experimenting, and finding one's unique path. It is finding inspiration, meaning, truth and connection. It is about growth and transcendence. Basically it is self-honesty and awareness.
IMO changing one's mind is allowed."

Once I might have said this is the perfect Truth.

Today I say that it is a beautiful expression of what, today, I also believe.

[Di]

Spence, I am glad you agree. I feel encouraged. So will share a bit more.

Great seekers of truth (scholars, scientists, mystics) had open minds and were willing to explore depths of their universe where no one had gone before, changing their minds numerous times after each dead end.
In santmat, guru Amardas and Bulleh Shah come to mind as mystics who had to change their minds to discover their truths and essence of spirituality.
Einstein "insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results."
When we become closed minded. We become victims of cognizance lazziness.

[Marko]

No change no freedom

[Nick GB]

Brian
One understanding of the 'no self' in Buddhism is that there is no fixed immutable self identity. I think your post reveals that. It is all fluid and in flux. It is so helpful to flag up that change occurs anyway, that it is okay to change and that there is not special merit in staying rigid and fixed. For what its worth you have always struck me as being intensely spiritual (if you interpret that as inner focused on understanding mind, emotions etc).
Another really helpful and useful article that also has benefit of showing just how dangerous and dodgy dogma can be.
All good to you and loved the Tai Chi practice video by the way.

[Maria de La Torre]

The brain has the wonderful, intrinsic gift of neuroplasticity. It changes all the time. The neurons can adjust themselves to damage and new situations, both inner and outer.
The heart is an even more complex brain in its own right and can intuitively know things before the cerebral cortex has had time to process them rationally.
The gut also has brain cells, not only does it have them, it can grow new ones. Hence the expressions, 'Listen to your heart. Listen to your gut feeling.' That whole process inevitably involves changing ones mind and direction. When your gut twists and your solar plexus starts churning or your heart centre starts revolving in an uncomfortable way or feels negatively shocked, it's a warning to change direction. Dismiss it at your peril!
Everything is in flux at this level. Even our cells change according to our feelings. Negative emotions and feelings actually acidify the blood. Brain, body, heart, etc., are all interconnected. Why we have to be so careful with our thoughts.
Quote:
'Far more than a simple pump, as was once believed, the heart is now recognized by scientists as a highly complex system with its own functional “brain.”
Research in the new discipline of neurocardiology shows that the heart is a sensory organ and a sophisticated center for receiving and processing information. The nervous system within the heart (or “heart brain”) enables it to learn, remember, and make functional decisions independent of the brain’s cerebral cortex. Moreover, numerous experiments have demonstrated that the signals the heart continuously sends to the brain influence the function of higher brain centers involved in perception, cognition, and emotional processing.
In addition to the extensive neural communication network linking the heart with the brain and body, the heart also communicates information to the brain and throughout the body via electromagnetic field interactions. The heart generates the body’s most powerful and most extensive rhythmic electromagnetic field. Compared to the electromagnetic field produced by the brain, the electrical component of the heart’s field is about 60 times greater in amplitude, and permeates every cell in the body.'
End of quote.
What am trying to say, Brian, is that we are adapting to change, inner and outer, all the time. We have to refine and stay open to new discoveries; otherwise we stagnate and become psychological antiques.
I remember Charan Singh saying, "If someone gives your heart a jolt, avoid their company." Your heart will tell you the truth before your brain can think it. Sonia intuitively felt uneasy way before her rational mind made the decision to leave.
Sometimes we override our heart and gut feelings due to dogma or the fear we may be acting irrationally. We have forgotten to listen to our intuition. Few people are calm enough to do so.
In retrospect, my gut feeling and negative heart churning have always been correct but have often overridden them with logic or a false sense of duty or blind belief system. Then it's a question of time, bitter experience and disappointment to eventually discover my initial gut feeling was accurate and that had I listened to it at the start, it would have saved me a whole load of trouble and time.
The heart is the same. A Change of heart can also occur. Listen to your heart is not just an old cliché. The heart is a very powerful receiving station of subtle energies.
We can't stay the same, we have to change in order to evolve.Transformation is the caterpillar to chrysalis to winged butterfly. Positive change is a superpower indeed.

[Pema Tej]

Hi Sonia,

Which open thread?
I couldn't find your answer

Love

[Jen]

Hi Sonya

Just reading through the comments on this thread, you say...

"If you’re fine with him insulting so many people questioners and Satsangis well, that says a lot about you."

I've never heard or observed Gurinder insulting others. Maybe its a good thing that I only went to the Dera once on my own and experienced peace and friendliness. What helped me so much at that time was my faith in the Master. I believed I was looked after and the trip went so perfectly.

Sonya I smile when reading your comment about hoping to have it all figured about the time you are 70. Now, in my 70's having changed so much and now not having faith in the Master any more and it feels sad and lonely.

What to believe in? What to have faith in? Faith in myself, would be ego. All is suffering. The only thing that helps me is this feeling of letting go and embracing nothingness. No understanding of anything just Nothing.

Hi Maria de la Torre

Liked your comment about the brain, heart and gut and adapting to change, inner and outer, all the time. Do you meditate? I'm still a vegetarian, don't do alcohol/drugs, live a moral life etc but I have a huge resistance to sitting meditation. Wish I could understand this. Do you believe in Kal, the negative power which we were taught as a satsangi?

[Sonia]

Hi Pema,

It was Open thread 26 (which got to be really long so Brian opened a new one). You can google search from this site “open thread 26”. :)

It’s probably on the 3rd page... possibly 4th.

[Sonia]

Pema,

If you can’t find it I’ll repost it on Open thread 27. Let me know.

[Um]

@ Jen
If you want to understand ANY religion you first have to put it aside for a moment what they have to say.
Then think about the human condition, what bothers them.
Try to write down for yourself as simple as possible what according YOU, human life is all about … don't go into details
When you have made yourself an clear picture of the human condition then look at what this or that religion or school has to say.
you will be suprised about the answers you will find.

THINK … do your own thinking
You are not born to agree or disagree with what others have to say.
You have come at an age you can do it.

.

[Sonia]

Maria de La Torre,

Wow! I just read your comment above posted Dec 16th and I’m glad I only saw it now because it is so apropos with how my day has been going.

I got my 30 day chip today which was a big accomplishment for me. But my heart was inexplicably very saddened all day long. To the point where I just wanted to run to my room (and I did) and curl up in my bed and just stare at the wall. When you get to this level of inexplicable sadness staying busy doesn’t help. It’s like you need to give your body, heart and mind time to reflect and heal. Your comment has given me a lot to consider.

Thanks!

[Sonia]

Jen,

I’m glad you had a good experience at the Dera. Many people have been blessed with good experiences there.

Really appreciate your comment about letting go... sometimes we just have to lovingly let go.

[Sonia]

Maria de La Torre,

Lot of synchronicity happening this evening. Just found this by doing a google search:

Brian’s blog post - 2006
https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2006/02/trust_your_gut_.html

[Jim Sutherland]

Sonia writes,.....” I got my 30 day chip today which was a big accomplishment for me.”

Me: If you will accept a little advice from a member of the Alumni,....there are no Graduates in AA. Until you find your self at the Abyss of your own absolute Rock Bottom, with no where else to escape to, other than death,.....you will never put the cork back in the Bottle until you are saved by GRACE by that very Higher Power AA members have turned their lives over to! KISS,....” Keep It Simple, Stupid!” “ Just For Today!” “ Keep Away From One Drink One Day At a Time.” “ One drink is too many, then 100 is never enough.” Hey, let’s face it. Life is a Bitch to try to live through , with out being intoxicated on Mind Numers!
But Congrats on staying on a Dry drunk for 30 days to get your first chip. But if you are ever to be successful, you will need to desire staying sober on your own, not being forced to do it by your family and friends. But why should I know about those things? Preacher Jim wasn’t always a Saint!
Preacher Jim put the cork back in the Bottle April 1977 and has kept it there with out a single taste of Alcohol since, by keeping away from one drink, one day at at time!!
Every time you crave for your next drink, sit in Meditation, and practice hooking up with your Higher Power at your Third Eye, as you were graced with when initiated in to Sant Mat!
Best Regards to receiving your next Chip.
Jim S.

[Whodunit]

Good on ya Jim keep the good advice flowing

[Sonia]

Thanks, Jim. 😊

Today my husband and I went out for the first time all year and enjoyed a really nice Saturday exploring all the new places in town. He teased me (reflecting on this past year of my drinking) saying “apparently Rock Bottom has a basement”. 🙄

[Sonia]

And congratulations to you too, Jim. I love hearing stories at the speaker meetings from old timers like yourself. 😁

[Jim Sutherland]

To Sonia,......I have to be honest with you tho, because getting sober in AA is not always successful, but it’s a wonderful Organization that is a great awakening to Drunks that still imagine they can now have “ just one glass of Wine at dinner”, and will be O.K. You will hear so many stories that you will think,.....” Heck,...I was never that bad! They really need AA, all I need to do is not drink too much.” Of course, I don’t know you, or your situation, but know you have already been given the Gift of Grace by being initiated in to Sant Mat. Now, every Master in the Sant Mat Lineage has made you a Daughter of their Family, the moment you received Initiation.
I was only 28 when I went to my first AA meeting, after spending a night in Jail after being pulled over for DUI. I spent the next 7 years going to 3-5 meetings a week, and had many “ slips” during those 7 years, when my thinking turned back to stinking, and I took the cotton back out of my mouth and put it in my ears at meetings! Fast forward to April 1977, at age 35. When I woke up the next morning from my last drunk, there were Cadavers in the local Morgue that were not as sick as I was just before they died!! After 7 years in AA, I finally knew beyond a doubt, I was POWERLESS over Alcohol. I had been reading a Bible left in the Hotel I was staying at, and after looking in the mirror and seeing a I had big black eye, from Puking with the dry heaves, I had broken a blood vessel under my eye, and I could not convince my Wife I had not been in a fight. But before I left the Hotel, I got on my knees in the room, and prayed to the only Higher Power I knew, from AA, and promised that if I EVER felt normal again, I would spend the remainder of my life Praising God and trying to be his Servant. Within days, my life started to change, and I never, to this day, ( I will be 78 in a month), have had to attend another AA meeting. I turned my life over to Christ, as I understood Him at that time, and transferred from AA meetings to Church meetings, which kept me sober for the first 10 years, but I was a meat eater until I was initiated in to Sant Mat in April 1988 at age 45 , which then took over my sobriety and put my in to The Journey of Souls.
You may have seen my blog, where my Journey has been recorded up to present, with out ever giving due credit to AA, but it was in AA where I really first trusted in a Higher Power I chose to call God.
Hang in there, use ALL of the Tools and Gifts of Grace you have been given, up to present, and in spite of all of the negativity in the world, you,....and I, never need to walk in the crap we encounter, as we know how to walk around it, by using our Tools.
Jim S.

[Arjuna]

@ jim and Sonia

I pretty drunk but a story from master sawan time.

He was reading letters and stopped and smiled. Long story short people asked Him why He was smiling. He refused at first to tell but at fierce prompting he told all.

He said that there is a satsanghi who is pissed and has been arrested and is shouting "my Baba is Great and He will come and tell you people off" . He carried on smiling .

Will you GSD do that for me ? I ask you

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia is your husband still on the path? And what does he think of you leaving it and the vows??? Just curious

[Pema Tej]

Hi Sonia,

I read your response, and other responses to other individuals on Open thread 26. I take it that you were quite close to Baba Gurinder Singh Dillon while living at the Dera(?)

I also had to look up ACIM.

You are right, I have been initiated by Baba-Ji, though, I wouldn't call myself a 'practicing Satsangi', as I do not do meditations regularly, nor do I follow the vows or adhere to them strictly.

I also have other teachers and Masters I look to for spiritual support.

Love♥️

[Sonia]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the insight. And, you’re right, a lot of times you hear stories and think, “I’m not as bad as that person!”. But they say it’s a progressive disease... apparently even when you’re not drinking—all those years in Sant Mat—the disease still progresses so that when you start again you’re that much worse off (which is an odd phenomenon).

Haven’t seen your blog. Will check it out. :)

[Sonia]

Jen from Austin,

I must warn you, if you’re on a mission to save my soul, I think you might wind up bitterly disappointed. 🙃

Yes, my husband is devoted to the path but has never been preachy about it. He doesn’t push it on anyone. That’s how he was raised. His parents were Satsangis but didn’t push it on their kids and didn’t really take the kids to meetings much, but both of their sons decided on their own to get initiated when they were older. His family is English South African—they’re not like Indian families that tend to pressure their kids into getting initiated.

As a matter of fact, I never even knew he was a Satsangi until after we were married. And that came to light when I asked him questions about a conversation I overheard him having. I was furious when I found out because I was completely anti organized religion and “organized spirituality” back then. He said it was his path and he in no way was trying to influence me. He believed each person does what their called to do. He also admitted he didn’t tell me because he knew I wouldn’t have married. And he’s right. I love him, but that was just too weird for me to accept at the time.

And now we’re full circle. 😂

My husband is very supportive. He wasn’t surprised I decided to leave after last December because he witnessed first hand (and understood better than anyone) how much that whole event at Dera affected me. He wanted to cry when it happened but still tried to encourage me. If GSD did what he did “knowing it was best for my spiritual growth” then he must have realized it would be better for me spiritually in AA and that he wasn’t quite capable enough as a “Master” to handle my spiritual problems. LOL

My husband was initiated by Charan Singh though, so that really helps. That way, when I’m upset at Gurinder he doesn’t feel like I’m insulting his Master and doesn’t feel the need to defend GSD. In fact, he’s never said anything bad about Gurinder at all (other than question WTF was he thinking when he built that iron slaves statue at the Dera) and he’s never defended him—not outright. He’s stayed neutral and keeps all his pictures of Charan and the RS books (the ones we have left—I got rid of most of them) in his office.

I’m still vegetarian—we’re mostly vegans. He meditates every day and goes to Satsang and just wants me to be happy.

My husband had pretty severe PTSD from the military and still deals with it. Getting initiated by Charan helped restore his sanity. His PTSD was tough to deal with at first but has improved tremendously over the years since I’ve known him. Other than that I must admit he’s pretty amazing. I mean, he’s just extremely genuine, hard working and treats everyone he meets with respect. My family loves him. He’s really funny too.

[s*]

You're very lucky Sonia with such a ''cool''husband!!
He must be lucky with you too :)!

[Marko]

Sonia Big Respect to you n your husband, guess we all have stories. My goal in life is to become human. Love to both of you.peace..

[Sonia]

Jen FA,

My husband is devoted to his Master and for that reason he won’t disrespect Gurinder. He doesn’t want to hear about any of the stuff in the news because he just wants to hold onto his faith and not judge whether or not GSD is doing the right things. But his experience with GSD at the Christmas party last year helped him believe that Gurinder had some “God” in him.

I think a lot of people struggle with so many changes in RSSB with Gurinder. Some don’t have any issues with the way it is now, but a lot are struggling with questions. However, for those that have had good experiences inside, they don’t want to lose that. AND, there was as much in the news about Charan. Plus, the Dera and local Sangats were very different back then. He has such fond memories of the loving sangat he attended in Chattsworth. It was a very warm environment—had get together and lunch after Satsang. Those were his best memories. And the small home Satsang here is actually really sweet. Very warm and friendly—chai, treats and sometimes lunch. Gives the group time to spend getting to know each other and encourage each other. I still love all of them and occasionally go out to lunch with the woman who hosts the Satsangs at her house. It’s funny—she’ll gush about Gurinder and I’ll smile and respectfully listen but won’t add anything to that topic.

[Sonia]

Hi Pema,

I totally understand where you’re coming from. RSSB doesn’t have a patent on spirituality and I think there’s a lot of good teachers out there.

I didn’t live at the Dera but I’ve been there 6 different times—so 6 months in total at Dera. And since time stands still at Dera it feels like I’ve spent 6 years there. Lol

💗 💕

[Georgy Porgy]

Far as I know there has is no obligation to stay on the path, entirely up to you.

Based on the stories provided above, it seems to me that sant mat has actually performed wonders for a few ppl.

Leaving aside the spiritual aspect, sounds like it’s helped ppl with all sorts of psychoses and addictions.

Still have not seen a single reason why rssb and this guru is being given such a hard time. I just don’t get why a hangin’ is needed.

[Sonia]

Also, I planned a trip to the Dera for this current December session for one of the guys from our local Satsang. I wanted him to have a really good trip since he was very excited about it and it’s his first trip. So, I helped book his tickets and plan everything. There’s a hell of a lot good-to-know-before-you-go that’s helpful in navigating through Delhi, Pusa Road, the god awful train ride, Hostel 6 and getting around the Dera. It’s a world unto itself.

Just because I don’t follow RSSB doesn’t mean I’m going to be disrespectful to my family and friends about their beliefs.

It’s another thing when I (and when ALL OF US) share our opinions/thoughts on Brian’s Church of the Churchless blog. Clearly, if you’re “here” then either you have questions and concerns or you are aware that you’re opening yourself up to a disagreement.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

There’s a huge difference between RSSB under Gurinder’s rule. Day and night to the way his predecessor behaved and ran things. Gurinder has made RSSB his own and has no problem with people understanding that he is the dictator. He rules it with an iron fist and couldn’t care less what other people (people in his administration) think or believe about running the organization. It is not democratic or socialist or communist. It is a totalitarian regime.

In essence, Gurinder is the dictator of a small country and holds very tightly to his power. He’s an extreme control freak. And I’m not saying anything here that he wouldn’t admit to. He’ll tell you over and over again, “It’s my way or the highway”. The bottom line is, he always has done and always will do what’s best for him and him alone. If you just happen to reap rewards from him getting what he wants then good for you.

Only one thing is true about Gurinder—EVERYTHING is about him and for him. In his mind nothing else matters but himself.

Charan wasn’t anything like Gurinder. He was very firm and improved the Dera a great deal but was he was also loving and gentle.

No one has ever used the word gentle to describe Gurinder.

If you like the idea of a spiritual dictator with the stereotypical dictator behavior then he’s your man.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

Just my two cents here... my best advice to you would be go stay at the Dera for a session and then make up your mind about GSD. Are you married to a satsangi? If so, you can go to one of the sessions. Otherwise, you’ll just have to get initiated and go. 😬

It might actually work for you. Or it might not. But at least you’ll know. And it sounds like you really want to know if this is the right Master for you.

[Sonia]

GP,

But I may not be the best person to take advice from. For example, I’ll tell kids a couple of times not to touch something because it’s hot and if they argue with me about it, I’m like go ahead touch it.

So... it might be hot!

[Georgy Porgy]

Nope not married, nor do I take advice from anyone (but enjoy shooting the breeze with everyone).

As a golden rule, I never ever EVER listen to a single word from any preacher (I don’t count you as a preacher, brother Spence most definitely is). Maybe only a handful of ppl who I ever listen to. Stand on my own 2 feet for better or worse - my problems are undoubtedly caused by myself and my own limitations and are my own to deal with.

Expectations of the rssb path would be that it’s likely to be very hard and require sustained disciplined patience (not something that comes naturally), with no guarantee of any success, but with potentially enormous rewards that I couldn’t possibly fathom in my atheist existence.

My advice to you is not to listen to advice, unless you know 100% it’s for your own benefit. Especially don’t listen to advice just because it makes you feel better, or just because it’s delivered in a more palatable or gentle way that makes you feel warm and fuzzy - rather go for the hardnosed truth ever time (warts and all) that you know deepdown is best for you even if you don’t like how it’s delivered. Sometimes there are no easy answers.

[Jen]

"Only one thing is true about Gurinder—EVERYTHING is about him and for him. In his mind nothing else matters but himself.
Charan wasn’t anything like Gurinder. He was very firm and improved the Dera a great deal but was he was also loving and gentle."

Sonia, this is a very different world we are now living in to the one in which Charan was the RSSB guru. I don't see anything wrong with Gurinder being strict about following the rules. No need to put a guru on a pedestal. He is simply an example and some people might like that he is strict and organised. You seem to be a bit of a rebel and upset because he was a bit harsh with you.

I disagree with you that he is all about himself. Look up the difference between a big ego versus a strong ego.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia I am in no mission to save your soul. I can barely save mine. 😂
I ask about your husband because I have the same situation myself except in my case it’s reversed. I am your husband and you are mine. It’s tough so this is why I was asking about the opposite.
I heard while in hostel 6 once a lady ask the question of Babaji about her husband following the path and didn’t tell her before marriage but when she found out she was furious would have left him. Until she got into an accident and experienced what she did and that’s when everything her husband told her about his path just came back to her and she was apologizing to Babaji for all that she said when she didn’t know. By any chance was that you? Quite a similar story though I don’t remember you mentioning anything here about an accident.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

I don’t need things sugar coated... despite the fact that for the most part I try to be as diplomatic as possible when dealing with friends and family and other people people face to face. I can take blunt advice. What I can’t take is when a guru completely ignores the very series concerns and questions you have about spiritual matters. GSD always brushed off my ONE & ONLY serious concern. He didn’t/doesn’t understand the seriousness of it and it has to do strictly with meditation. If he could have addressed that question, I am sure I would have overlooked everything else. Maybe it’s best he ignored it. I don’t know. I honestly don’t give a shit if he sugar coats things or not if he can address that one particular question.

That’s literally ALL he had to do, which ironically is his only job—dealing with spiritual matters, not building cities or a global empire.

[Sonia]

To beat a dead horse... I’m not that “sensitive”. If Gurinder and I got into a screaming match I would win hands down. And I am completely aware that that sounds like a very egotistical and immature thing to say but it’s absolutely true.

My point is, the real issue is he hasn’t addressed a very serious spiritual issue because a) he can’t be bothered to go within and figure out the problem or b) he just doesn’t give shit OR c) he doesn’t have the spiritual insight.

He has absolutely no right to be pissed at me. But if he’s offended then HE is the sensitive one.

[Jen]

The difference between a 'big ego' and a 'strong ego'

https://medium.com/@midsonshort/the-difference-between-a-big-ego-and-a-strong-ego-3f103746dc44

"The ego is that part of you that defines itself as a personality, that considers itself a separate entity from the rest of the world. To make it really simple, your ego is the part of you that you feel is talking when you say “I.”
Rather than think the ego as a good or bad thing, I have come to think of it as a software program that runs inside your head.

The main purpose of your ego is protect the identity you have created over many years. If the world around you is giving you signals that you are the person your think you are, the ego is relaxed. However, if you get information that says something isn’t what you expected, then sometimes the ego gets defensive."

[Um]

@ Sonya

Humans are tied to one another by emotional and intellectual bonds. They pull these ropes. and can make the other move … one moment this way the other moment that way.

But how will one move a human when there are no bonds that binds two people together??

I have no idea about inner worlds, gods, or masters beyond writing these words but one thing I came to understand from the interactions of his uncle with his disciples, that he was a FREE human being, without any bonds and nobody could move him in any direction trying to pull the ropes the imagined to be there.

In my opinion there is no human being that can cope with the amount of pressure that is exercise upon them by disciples and others.

How he manage to do so I don't know.
The mount Fuji moves more that he did.

[Sonia]

Zenny Jenny,

:-)

I had started looking at the mind and the ego but never considered looking at the ego as having two different sides before.

Thanks for sharing the link.

[Arjuna]

At sonia

B and C. Says it all. I was in a mess once due to a loss of the only person I had.

I prayed that he would say something to me whilst i was at Haynes. To help me . Not many satsanghis gave a shit either. That's what creates a solider a monster . But he was to busy with Shahid Kappor or other Rich sevadars children. It was a joke

He freed me in that I started drinking again . I dont care what he says about punishments . Who care . GOD would care but we are not in that situation . Are we lol

[Sonia]

Hi Um...

Yep, you must be right because nothing has changed. We aren’t tied to Masters by emotional or intellectual bonds.

However, what IS the spirit?

The dictionary translates spirit this way:
the nonphysical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.

So, I (my big fat ego) finds it difficult to separate my emotions from my soul. I think emotions and feelings are what connect people. It’s a quite challenge to get to such a non-feeling rational state that allows you to “detach”.

My husband didn’t do a very good job of selling me on spirituality when we were dating.
He said, “when you die you’re one with God”.
And I said, “Then what?”
And he said, “Nothing, you’re just with God.”
And I was like, “Well if there’s no bliss or happiness or joy in being with God then I might as well be atheist.”

To be honest, I think it’s impossible to feel nothing—unless you’re numbed out on drugs and/or alcohol. And when you get to a state like that, it’s not happiness it’s just numbness.

I don’t want to be numb.

[Sonia]

Jen,

You hit the nail on the head (at least “I” can admit when “I’m wrong when it’s beaten into me enough). I do put Gurinder on a pedestal. Even after all this time, I really do. I still have a very difficult time accepting or believing that he is just a regular guy—that he’s just like one of us. I’ve seen too many things that make me believe otherwise, but perhaps those were just illusions created by my mind. And my mind expects a lot more which probably isn’t realistic. Hmmm... I might be crazy 😜

I have to go play musical chairs with our bedrooms. Moving my niece out of her room and into another one. My office into my husband’s office and his office into my niece’s bedroom once we get her stuff moved. I wish I had magical powers and could just snap my fingers and make it all happen. Do you ever feel like gravity is just really heavy??? That’s how it feels to me. And that’s why I like minimalism and throwing stuff away. That’s kind of Zen, right?

[Um]

@ Sonja

Talk to people who have been present in the days of his uncle and ask them to talk about the difference how his uncle reacted to the people in the audience and his secretary sitting next to him.

I have seen all sorts of emotions and thoughts been thrown at him in the evening sessions of Q&A and the only reaction I ever saw was a little amusement, some laughter but I have never seen him lose his balance. The secretary however being a kind man in my opinion even after having seen thousands of people come by and seen each and every human trick of the mind, re-acted regularly as could be seen on his face …. he did his best to stand up against these barrages of emotions and thoughts but as he had to put effort in it to keep standing he now and then would move out of balance ….. again I have never seen that MCS had to use any effort to keep his balance.

In my eyes he was untouchable … that is why I called him a FREE man.

You and I and every man you know can be triggered to react; you could throw whatever rope you liked he would never ever enter into the game of rope-pulling.

He looked and acted as an human but I have never seen another human being acting the way he did …. or should I say …. actingless

What a master is all about, I just don't know but this much all of us could see …. if they wanted

[Sonia]

Arjuna,

You are just fine and you certainly don’t have to worry about karma or punishments. You are right—he did free you and God certainly doesn’t judge you.

Although... don’t drink too too much. 😉 Or else you’ll have to join me in AA. Lol

Be kind to yourself and take care. 🙏

[Jen]

"And that’s why I like minimalism and throwing stuff away. That’s kind of Zen, right?"

Sonia, yes, cleaning things out and throwing stuff away is kinda Zen. Getting rid of the stuff in our minds is a whole other practice, but it can be fun in a strange sort of way. I'm hopeless at meditating but love looking up Zen quotes which confuse the mind and yet can make sense and be helpful at the same time:

"Obstacles don't block the Path. They are the Path."

"If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything, it is open to everything..."

[Arjuna]

@ sonia

Think we are both too strong to end up in AA. I know when to stop. But will be hitting it hard this Saturday when I meet up with some of my teammates.

Have you seen Ben Hur.? Just seen it when Christ gives water to Charlton Hestons character when is is tired hungry and the Roman's ain't giving him water. They show Christ give him water and that made me cry as that's how I imagine God In Human Form to be. PURE LOVE.

[A Wise 🦉]

It’s a quite challenge to get to such a non-feeling rational state that allows you to “detach”.

To be honest, I think it’s impossible to feel nothing—unless you’re numbed out on drugs and/or alcohol. And when you get to a state like that, it’s not happiness it’s just numbness.

Posted by: Sonia | December 22, 2019 at 04:07 PM

You are right Sonia, it will be quite a challenge. Possibly impossible.

The foundation of santmat is love. A feeling. But key is having the right attachment i.e. attachment with the Guru - the Word.

Charan used to famously say only attachment can create a sense of detachment. Attachment with the Word detaches you with the world.

And even here it's not a state of numbness. It's just you have untangled yourself in a manner that your worldly attachments do not control/rule you.

Can I ask what was that one question about meditation that he completely ignored

[Sonia]

A Wise 🦉,

Thanks for your concern. Your question made me realize something. He can’t tell the answer until he looks in my eyes and I never give him much time at all to do that. I’ll go and give him one more chance.

Thx for asking. You sort of helped answer the question.

[Sonia]

Arjuna,

Yes, I have seen Ben-Hur. It’s been a while. That is exactly what Christ would do (Brian would do that :)). Most people seem to think that “Christ” is exclusive to Jesus but it actually means “anointed one” which applies to all true teachers/healers.

Jesus gave sight to the blind whereas RS doesn’t initiate blind people. So, there are some pretty fundamental differences...

[Jim Sutherland]

Hi Sonia,.....A question for you, if you will be kind enough to answer? I have been REAL curious about it. How, or why, do you seem to have such an open door access to Gurinder Singh Dhillon? By many of your past posts, you “ insinuate” that you are almost family, like your recent post that you would have a screaming match with him. To have such an intimate access to Gurinder, you would either need to be an Inner Core Staff Sevadore, or a very high $$$$$$$$$$$ Donor, or a close friend or Associate of one. I know Gurinder Initiates and Charan Initiates that have never been allowed even a single Personal Interview, or get their letters answered, much less get close enough to him to even see his eyes,other than when he drives by in his Pope Mobile. Or, do you have access to him because of your husband who is in tight with Gurinder?
As for RSSB not initiating the blind, a big part of initial Meditation is focusing on the image of your initiating Master inside, at the Third Eye, so if you are blind, and have never seen the physical form of your Master, how could you possibly recognize him, if his Radiant Form manifested inside? The Radiant Form of Jesus would be my first choice, inside, but haven never seen Jesus, how would I recognize him? The LIVING Master, is the entire significance of Sant Mat, and if your blind, and unable to SEE your Living Master, than you Sant Mat has no Carrot on the Tip of the stick to guide you on the Path.
Merry Christmas,
Jim S.

[🕉️]

Jesus gave sight to the blind whereas RS doesn’t initiate blind people. So, there are some pretty fundamental differences...

Posted by: Sonia | December 22, 2019 at 09:35 PM

If indeed Jesus gave sight to the 'physically' blind then Sister that Jesus wasn't a perfect master. And what guarantee that it's just the current stupid distorted interpretation of Jesus actually granting the divine vision to the spiritually blind disciples.

Perfect masters don't handout pegs. Their's is a medicinal dose. And medicine is bitter.

[Jesse]

"If indeed Jesus gave sight to the 'physically' blind then Sister that Jesus wasn't a perfect master. "

RS books describe the miracles of their masters that happen in the physical world, one being Sawan Singh curing someone from a snake bite. Does that make RS a lineage of fakes too?

[Sonia]

I’m often amazed at how little RSSB followers know how about their own faith. Especially any Satsangi born outside India. Many Westerners aren’t even aware that there are many sects of Radha Soami.

Seriously, “Western” Satsangis are some of the most uneducated people I’ve met when it comes to understanding the history and origins of their faith, current news and even THE 5 NAMES—that alone is bizarrely un-wholey.

[Sonia]

Here’s a cool article I came across and enjoyed reading about Ram Dass:

https://apnews.com/9a69b5c29572667db80296a00633390f

[Sonia]

Hi Jim,

No, I’m definitely not family or part of his inner circle. I just have this weird “karma” of running into him... and the people in his inner circle. I can’t count the number of times a Satsangi at Dera will come up to me, start a conversation and share all this stuff about Gurinder that most people don’t know.

Anyway, every time I go to the Dera I learn volumes more about him. But even with Satsangis here in the US—if you listen, they’ll speak. :)

And I’m not Indian despite the name. I have no idea why my conservative parents decided to name me Sonia. It was not a common or popular name at all.

But as far as your statement about Jesus and radiant form is concerned, my question for you is, what about all the RS Satsangis who have never seen their master in person? And you’d be surprised how many there are. My husband was initiated by Charan but never got to see him in person.

[Arjuna]

And how do you know perfect masters dont help??? Have you met one?? Err nope just as I thought.

Charan quoted christ.

Sawan gave infertile woman a child and the horse moved when he was about to write 1 on the floor - it turned to a 7.

Annoys me people regurgitating crap heard from preachers. Get a life.com

[Sonia]

Jim,

And, to answer your question, no my husband is not in tight w/Gurinder. I think Gurinder has occasionally given me a little extra attention in the past because he was afraid I was going to burn something down at the Dera. Haha (that was a joke)

My husband’s mother was 5th generation born in India... but they were Irish-ish. People start mixing and nobody really talks about it. But he looks totally white except for when he gets in the sun and then he gets darker than my best friend who is black (she prefers “black” to African American).

Oh wait, one of my great grandmothers is Indian (Native American). But I think that’s a pretty common thing here in America. My grandfather looked full Native but you should see his kids—it’s amazing how quickly it washes out... and then grandkids (my generation).

But we’re a melting pot of different cultures and ethnicities. German, Jewish, Irish, Italian, Native American and god knows what else. Seems the average American knows about as much about their own DNA as they do the “faith” they practice.

I have never been able to get my head around racism.

I think we’re ALL related.

[Jim Sutherland]

Sonia,....thanks, but how does being a Mongrel get you so much attention and interviews from Gurinder? Yes, we AMERICANS are mostly all mixed breeds, i. e. Mongrels. I am 1/4 French Canadian, 1/4 Canadian Micmac Native American, 1/4 Scot, and 1/4 English, but that is only going back to both of my Grand Parents on my Parent’s sides, If I went further back, no telling what I’d find. No doubt, there must have been plenty of hanky panky fence crossing going on before my Ancestors hitched rides on Banana Boats to immigrate to America. My Mother is still living at 97, and her Mother was Canadian Micmac, and my Mom looks just like a Native American Squaw. She was Naturalized many years ago, so is an American Citizen.

[Jim Sutherland]

Sonia, ..sorry. I now read you other comments, and see you DID answer my questions. Thanks!

[Jim Sutherland]

Sonia, I never saw Charan in person, either. But I did see his Videos, photos, and Pics., while he was alive, in his physical body, plus I listened to all his Q & A Western sessions on Cassetts, so when I DID SEE and HEAR Him in his Radiant Form, there was absolutely no mistake that he was an imposter. But I never saw his Radiant Form until 26 years after he initiated me! I was too stubborn to give up, and couldn’t find a sharp enough Hack Saw to Sawan’s off this Bulldozer Chains!! I used to sing an old Song,...” Take These Chains off My Heart and Set Me Free,.........”. But he never set me free. He let my flounder around, and think I was free, many times, but he always yanked me back on the Path. I never really strayed to gar, I just strayed away from Satsangs from 2002 to present, after Gurinder took all of the humanity of of Socializing at Satsangs. The Key was, and still is, I never quit meditating.

[Jen]

From Jim: "Sonia,....thanks, but how does being a Mongrel get you so much attention and interviews from Gurinder?"

Sonia, I've also been wondering about how lucky you are in your relationship with Gurinder and also thought of you as being in his 'inner circle' if there is such a thing. It doesn't seem like you are one of the sevadars so I thought maybe you are family related. Hope you don't mind me asking but how many trips to the Dera have you experienced?

[Sonia]

Jen,

I’ve made six trips to the Dera and have traveled to see him almost every time he visits the US.

The thing is—I see him outside the Satsangis halls when other people don’t. At first I thought it was normal—that every Satsangi had those experiences. I have never had an actual hallucination in my life (other than when I experimented with psychedelics—and those weren’t anything more than swirling patterns of light).

I guess the only true hallucination I ever had was when I took Adderall and Dramamine together. I used to take klonipin when I flew because I had this fear of flying and then one time I found myself about to board a flight from SFO to SEA without klonipin. So I rushed to the newsstand and bought Dramamine.

I’m going through the trouble of telling you this because one should NEVER mix Adderall with Dramamine. It wasn’t the worst thing I’ve ever been through by a long shot, however, being afraid of flying and seeing dead pilots walking towards you on a plane was pretty uncomfortable to say the least. Of course it wore off when the medicine wore off.

Anyway, I see Baba Ji frequently when no one else can. Maybe that makes me truly nuts and maybe it isn’t real but it is what it is. Other than that I consider myself reasonably sane. And just for the record, I got turned down by the sevadars for a personal interview 3 times until one day I finally asked GSD directly.

You will attract to you what you’re interested in. It’s the law of attraction. And because for a long time I was really interested in him, I would attract people individually who were close to him or knew people close to him and I would listen to all their stories. That’s just something humans do...

[Jim Sutherland]

Hey, Brother Arjuna,.......you used to be a friendly, polite, respectful Soldier when you were in the Forces. Now, you are starting to sound like an old disrespectful Drunk. Trust me! Boozing is a down hill slide ending in a black hole. You will loose your self respect, and any thing else of value you have, if you still have any thing left. Up to age 35, when I was drinking, I never had a pot to piss in, nor a window to throw it out of. I was always looking for trouble, and aleays found plenty of it,....until I quit drinking, and got my shit together. Those who know me, know that I came out of the shit smelling like a Rose, after I took back control of my life, after I quit drinking, I had to change Who I hung out with. My drinking friends no longer wanted to be near me, because Drunks hate sober people, and Vice Versa. Surely, you must have some thing left to live for, other than turning your soul over to the Demons of Alcohol. And you might not see them, but every time you get drunk, dozens of demonic spirits that were cast out of Alcoholic bodies when they died, attach them selves to you when your drunk. Take back control of your life, Brother! I’ll pray for you. So will Brother Spence, and Sister Sonia!

[Jen]

Hi Sonia,

Thanks for the reply. You've been lucky to have so many trips to Dera and also many interesting experiences. Try to dismiss your hurt feelings and have faith in your own higher self. Its an ongoing process and you're doing well...

Cheers, Jen

[🕉️]

RS books describe the miracles of their masters that happen in the physical world, one being Sawan Singh curing someone from a snake bite.

Posted by: Jesse | December 23, 2019 at 11:25 AM

Hmmm.....

Only between 5 to 7.5% is fatalities from poisonous bites. Yet Sawan saving one from a snake bite is WOW!!!!!!

And let me not embarrass you by asking for the relevant RSSB writings about the multitude of miracles performed by that lineage.

BTW are you still in the land of snake charmers. God's own country has a decent snake variety.

[Jesse]

"And let me not embarrass you by asking for the relevant RSSB writings about the multitude of miracles performed by that lineage."

You just said one miracle means one is not a master. Why now ask for a "multitude?" Charan Singh also said something to the effect of "masters perform miracles but it's not something they do to show off."

Read the books. You'll find yourself embarrassed because you have no idea what you're talking about, and you don't know anything about so called sant mat, but here you are talking.

[🕉️]

Charan Singh also said something to the effect of "masters perform miracles but it's not something they do to show off."
Posted by: Jesse | December 23, 2019 at 09:35 PM

Charan said something to the effect..... Not sure what he has said exactly huh?

And I must read up books. LOL

Your exact words "RS books describe the miracles of their masters that happen in the physical world"

So it's 'books' and 'miracles'. So multiple books describe multiple miracles and let's not have some stupid example like someone being saved from a snake bite. Don't need a master for it. An ordinary doctor can do the job 95% of the time successfully.

Please provide the relevant extracts.

[Jesse]

" let's not have some stupid example like someone being saved from a snake bite. Don't need a master for it."

I'm not sure if you're dense or what, but you brought up the miracles and that the use of them is proof of ones lower spiritual status. Your point was that those who perform miracles are not "masters." And I'm telling you that RS "masters" claimed themselves to have performed physical healing via miracle and not modern medicine ie you're saying that RS "masters" are not masters.

Modern medicine can also give sight to the blind in some cases, but that's not what Jesus did. We're not talking about vaccines, surgeries, or anti-venom meds. Sawan Singh is reported to have simply healed the man instantly. The other example I gave was of Charan Singh stopping a storm. Was he using secret DARPA technology back in the 1980s to achieve the immediate change of weather?

"Please provide the relevant extracts." I'm not going to read books for you, nor am I going to go find all the old books to purchase and reread them myself. I'm confident about my memory of this topic. Maybe instead of believing blindly you should also learn a bit about your religious organization's teachings and claims, and see if you find any glaring contradictions as I've done.

[Sonia]

🕉

Why does it even matter??

[Jesse]

"Why does it even matter??"

Fair point. And that's probably why Brian's change of beliefs is more respectable than most religious beliefs because he, and anyone who is either leaning toward leaving a particular religion or changing religions, is asking questions about meaning. Giving answers feels outdated and boastful.

We could ascend to heaven, meet Sawan Singh, and then after some time find out that we're actually in a counterfeit bardo that continually changes between heavenly and hellish states. Nobody has an answer to the particulars of celestial hierarchies, yet many cling to what a supposed authority figure said, having no way to verify it. Obviously having once been part of such a group, I can't judge, but it no longer makes sense to me to continue walking with the crutches of stubborn belief in what I can't know.

I've actually had an interest in becoming part of some sort of mystical cult again, with a guru and all, but only if I come across a community and set of teachings that don't provide answers about unknowable things. Taoism seems to be THE thing, but there aren't communities that I know of, but one, and it's weird as hell. It's also full of useless beliefs.

The more my mind plays around with this stuff while I write, the more I think the answer is just to sit with the old people at the park in between skateboarding sessions and "shoot the shit" as they say. Drifting is the king of lifestyles. Let nobody tell you otherwise.

[Sonia]

Jesse,

The more my mind plays around with this stuff while I write, the more I think the answer is just to sit with the old people at the park in between skateboarding sessions and "shoot the shit" as they say. Drifting is the king of lifestyles. Let nobody tell you otherwise.

(BTW, I think I’m screwing up all these bold, italics and underline < things. Haven’t gotten them down just right.)

Eckhart Tolle in ‘The Power of Now’ writes about being in such a state at one point that he could sit on a park bench, be homeless for a few years and in total bliss to where nothing else matters.

I don’t care if a guru can or will perform miracles or not. What matters is they show they’re in a state of peace. If they’re angry and upset all the time then why do we want what they have?? We’ve all got THAT. We’re looking for something a little more “godly”.

Gurinder is supernaturally charismatic when he wants to be. So maybe that’s his superpower.

Anyhoo... Merry Christmas Eve!!

[anami]

Sonia,

Can I share? I'm blind to the deep mysteries of HTML except to close bold with /b and close italics with /i

<>bold text<>
inside the <> put b to begin and /b to end.

<>italic text<>
inside the <> put i to begin and /i to end.

Happy Formatting!

[Sonia]

Gurinder has led Satsangis to believe that being nice is foolish. He believes kindness and gentleness and treat others as his equal is weakness. Sad.

Now, it’s quite common to run into RS Satsangis that believe it’s almost saintly to be rude.

And now he’s all alone.

[Maria de La Torre]

Hi Jen, yes I still meditate on the Sound and personally experience the Negative power and its function. If we never had to struggle with the negative force, we would never evolve. It's like a test to see exactly where we really stand.
I find Sound meditation incredibly helpful. It goes right back to the Essenes and the original teachings of Christianity, now lost. Further back it can be traced to Enoch and further back still to the Egyptian teachings. Have always loved the Essene teachings and the Essene Jesus so I don't just relate the Sound meditation to Sant Mat. Yogananda also taught it. It's as ancient as time!
I was initiated by Charan Singh but no longer attend satsang due to grave concerns about Gurinder.
Am vegan and have given up the drugs and alcohol too. A lot of people seem to have a problem with alcohol here, it's actually a form of self medication for some deep emotional trauma or post traumatic stress, the trouble is it kills you in the end so we have to give it up! Not easy.
The reason I stay away from it is because even one glass effects the body's electromagnetic field (aura) and makes one less psychic you could say. Drugs in general damage the aura and actually make holes in it that attract lower energies, which is why users become psychotic, paranoid and extremely negative after prolonged use. A hangover is like sinking into some sub astral purgatory! The beautiful swirling colours of the higher energies become grey as the vibrational energy lowers.
For those who can see, a cocaine addict's electromagnetic field is full of holes and greyish in colour whereas a meditating Buddhist monk's is like a brilliant rainbow. Usually, people who meditate have a beautiful golden aura which protects them. Even sincere loving prayer and bhakti makes the aura strong and radiant with white light.
They can scientifically measure these finer electromagnetic energies now and actually photograph them. The Russians have done a lot of research that isn't much publicised. We are kept in the dark about this information. We are informed the universe is vibrational but that's just a veiled hint!
If you can't meditate, try another approach maybe that you feel works for you? Sometimes, I have gone back to prayer and bhakti and then back to Sound and meditation.

[Maria de La Torre]

Hi Sonia, glad you enjoyed the heart, gut, brain connection.
You know, alcohol addiction is a form of self medication for deep emotional trauma or post traumatic stress, it temporarily anesthetises us but the problem is that it eventually kills us, so we have to give it up or die. Not easy. I think the reason you felt depressed was because of the vacuum withdrawal creates.
It's good to remember those purgatorial, sub astral, agonising hangovers when the temptation strikes. For a few hours of anesthetised oblivion a whole day of mental and physical torture awaits! Alcohol, as you know is a depressant in the long run too.
Best to stop before brain damage really kicks in because after prolonged drinking the frontal cortex becomes so compromised alcoholics can't stop drinking even if they really want to. They don't have the will power or the executive capability once the frontal cortex is damaged. Why no one should ever judge addicts. Judging them is not only cruel it is ignorance.
Then there is the danger with prolonged alcohol and heroin use that sudden withdrawal can actually kill you.
We have to find a better long term way to heal. Alcoholism and other addictions all stem from past trauma. It's not a life choice as most people like to think, it's self medication for deep pain. You would love the Gabor Mate M.D. literature on addiction. He is a pioneer in the field.
As I told Jen in the previous post, it seriously effects the electromagnetic field of the body which is why I don't drink or take drugs anymore even though the temptation arises when am stressed out!

[Arjuna]

@ sonia

God is supposed to be LOVE.

This God is always moody and angry . I stopped going to seeing him.10 years ago. Always trust your gut

[Georgy Porgy]

I didn’t get that impression at all. He seemed quite polite and good humoured to me when spending 3 days answering often the most tedious questions.

But there are cultural differences. Sometimes the ‘smiley faced all-is-love’ crowd are at best useless and at worst couldn’t care less about you - whereas the more serious ‘rude’ person may b well have your best interests at heart.

But if you haven’t learnt that much by now - then you may as well stick with the superficial airheads. Those ppl have never held out any appeal for me personally, but different strokes for different folks. Say what!

[Sonia]

@Arjuna

You couldn’t be more right—always trust to use your gut. Wish I had done that from the beginning.

[Sonia]

@Arjuna

“Always trust your gut.” Amen brother 🙏

I have no idea what happened there with that last comment.