Open Thread 27 (free speech for comments)

Here's a new Open Thread.

I appreciate that off-topic comments have been going in a previous Open Thread. As noted before, it's good to have comments in a regular blog post related to its subject, and it's also good to have a place where almost anything goes in regard to sharing ideas, feelings, experiences, and such. That place is an Open Thread.

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Remember that I'm moderating comments, so it could take a while for your comment to be published. Almost every comment submitted to an Open Thread will be approved. Personal attacks on someone are an exception. Argue with ideas, not insults.

Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. You can always find an Open Thread that way.

So if you're a believer in some form of religion, mysticism, or spirituality, this is where you can put your "praise God," "praise Guru," or "praise _______" comments.

Comments

[Saint Sonia]

Um,

If no one can change and everything is predetermined, then guess what! I’m guiltless! I’m a Saint! I’ve reached Nirvana... behold Sach Khand. 🙏 😇

I’ve tricked the great Mathematician, Kaal. No penance or meditation for me—I’m blameless you see...

Seriously, people who believe we don’t have one iota of free will are really, really, really, really bad at math.

[Um]

@ Sonia

If you have free will, by all means, use it.

There was a man that complained before MCS about his smoking addiction, having failed so many times, not knowing what to o next …. the answer was as simple one can get it … Well brother, don't do it.

And it can be one …. in one decision. After some minor protest, the system will accept ones will.

But this is not change in the sense I wrote about

[Dungeness]

@ If no one can change and everything is predetermined, then guess what!
@ I’m guiltless! I’m a Saint! I’ve reached Nirvana... behold Sach Khand.

Bingo! The soul is blameless and resides in Sach Khand according
to mystics. Never left, never will. However, in a flight of whimsy I
guess, soul set a game in motion with the help of a toy called mind.
Lots of technical detail including an operating framework with some
quirky features such as the illusion of freewill.

But the conscience, another mechanism of the mind, evaluates
your "choices" and establishes penalties and rewards for your acts.
To keep it interesting, the ledger is kept out of sight in the dark
corners of the subconscious. It doesn't miss a beat either.

Since we in our game roles identify totally with the mind and its
impulses, we hear only its dog-whistles. We sit, lie down, woof, bite,
go to our corner... just as the master directs. (No, not that master!)
One day we're dog-tired of the game (by pre-determination) and
start looking for the exit ramp. You know the rest of the story.

Looking back, the dog muses in spiritual-ese "Good to be home. I'm
one lucky dog".

[Sonia]

@Um
OK..... sorry, then I’m not sure what change you are talking about.

@Dungeness
I think that’s my favorite comment of yours to date. 😂 😂 And just when I had decided this blog had taken a turn and was geared more to serious people. Was just starting to feel like a didn’t fit it with this crowd. But that was entertaining. 😸

Anyway, In typical drama queen fashion I’m going to take a break. I’m a social media binger. I pick just one forum at a time though. And when I feel I’m spending too much time on a particular forum I cleanse my mind with several weeks of Pinteresting, which is just mind numbing candy for the brain.

It really feels like for the most part everything is more serious now (and we’re not even in the throws of the Singh saga).

[💖 🐾.💖]

Spence said :
"Imaging a saint standing for the mirror brushing his/her teeth … seeing a saint?!?"
and
Since when are actors allowed to play an other role than designed?!"

___
It ALL depends on the level (region) in and also outside
meditation, we are

In pure SK we have 100% authority

On Trikuti level , it s much less
'Here' is quite zero

Liberty and invulnerability is via real meditation
I mean the one sprouted from Love
Nothing else - no sight seeing
LOVE

Then we are ONE & can have 100% free will

777

PS
These 'ancient' expressions for 7 levels of consciousness
are not so bad
Subjective is endlessly stronger than objective
Review the movies Matrix & Inception

[um]

@ Sonia

We are all born with a set genes, mind set etc, things that cannot be changed.
We might not appreciate everything what we and others brought into this world …. that is alright but our dislikes doesn't mean that we or others have to change for the better. Acceptance and adaptation are the keywords

Strange enough people that have animals do understand this quite well as far as the animals are concerned but mostly not for themselves an those around. Each farmer, animal trainer can make that clear. None will try to change the character of the animal but work with the same.

We are part of nature. and culture. Cultural eyes cannot understand nature, but natural eyes can understand nature AND culture. Nature is the best teacher … look, see, look again and again.

There is an difference between "MY" hand with which I lift the cup and the mystery of "THE" hand that happens to be mine. "MINE" is everything cultural "THE" is everything natural.

I don't have any experiences with the inner worlds, or mind altering drugs but that much I do know is that culture is a mantle for our natural nakedness, trying to understand what cannot be understood.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi D

Good link to the book by Geoffrey Folk - ‘Stripping the Gurus’
Certainly illustrates the dirt on many of the big names and after a brief scan also seems somewhat critical of Sam Harris too.
I had to laugh at some of the table of contents subject headings: ‘Sex, Bliss, and Rock 'n' Roll-Satchidananda’, ‘Up the Asana - Yogi Amrit Desai’, ‘The Krinsh- Jiddu Krishnamurti’, ‘A Bit of a Booby - Ramakrishna’. Seems like quite a number get caught by the re-awakening of the one-eyed trouser snake!
Interestingly no Sant Mat Gurus make the main list though I did see Kirpal Singh’s name mentioned in the Yogananda blurb. Maybe Gurinder may make the next Edition?
After reading this stuff and Jim’s recent story I recall an experience I had with Thakar Singh in India:
In the mid 80’s a girlfriend and I were making our way from Shimla to Manali via bus, thumb and foot when walking up a side lane in Shimla we walked straight into Thakar. I had met him once before so just said ‘It’s Thakar Singh isn't it?’ He nodded and invited us to a satsang he gave that evening. Pretty much the same as what I was hearing at RSSB meetings also. What was interesting was getting an invite back to stay the night at this Dharamsala where a number of devotees were bunked down. I remember seeing him the next morning surrounded by all these strung out/sick followers: the place was freezing (it was November) and they were all coughing and spluttering, trying to keep it together/meditate and live on raw food! Did not make much sense to us so we got out of there quick.

Illustrates how we can have different experiences with these guys.

Returning to Folk who ends his Yogananda essay by saying “One does not ask for perfection in any organization—spiritual, humanitarian or otherwise—knowing that it is run by imperfect human beings. One simply asks for minimal competence, basic integrity/ethical behavior, accountability, and the ability to admit when they are wrong, to be able to correct their course’.

Not too much to ask, basic decency and applicable to all yes?

[💦😘💖💖💖.😘.💦 -]

@TIM. wrote. May, 2nd
Oh where oh where has my good guru gone
Oh where oh where can he be?

Now U wrote : “One does not ask for perfection"

Much more than perfection we got from Charan

Not only what I wrote when u google
777 VIVALDI
in the box right up here

but so many more and because U mention Yogananda
You must have seen my story about perfect multi or poly
positioning ( the word is used by the roman church
when defining who is a Saint of the Church)

I told it but will try to compact it in few words 4who missed it

The Representative of Yogananda's Organisation in Holland
could not remember the following when I asked Him later !!!

My wife and I wanted initiation in The Self Realisation Fellowship after reading the Autobiography and we visited the dutch headquarters and met with Mr. Doctor Piet Romein
Very nice guy and showed us his bees , hee was an Imker, had 10 Hives
Then showed the premises ; nice with many portraits of Yogananda, Sri Yukteswar, , a Saint Whahiri and more
and after 90 minutes he said :
I can't help you
You both must go to Ms Nel Keus
Nel can help U

He gave her address, we left, disappointed , kind of obedient , not my character at all, . .
drove right to Nel , 20 miles from there
Nel had been most of her life Secretary of Krishnamurti ( Piet said)
She was the only person in Holland that could translate directly
Sanskrit in Dutch, also a Doctor . . . like Mr Lane haha

I thought : no Theosophie , that's not we want

SHE was not there

So we drove home 70 Miles and I phoned her in the evening

She said by phone ;
Ooh Yes I know Piet very well but personally I have nothing to do with the Yogananda Fellowship organisation.

I have a Master in India named Charan
and HE gave me 5 words

By phone , . . when she uttered "5 words" , . . I got Hyper Goose Bumps all over my body
and couldn't move, and couldn't speak
I phoned back as soon as I could - the GooseBumps & numbness was I think 15 minutes

The rest of this story is evident and I told all this with other lines in this blog already 2 times

BUT THE POINT IS

PIET ROMEIN ( Highly Scientific Guy , High IQ )
insisted
HE WAS NOT THERE THAT DAY

So Tim, Speaking about perfection

This was Maharaji Charan Singh receiving us
and explaining about the bees , next making tea and cookies and showing us all there was on the walls, . . . while HE Ofc was in India

Great is The Lord
High High is His Mansion ( Jap Ji)

777

PS.
(. For Info . . , Read Hines )

[Jen]

777, I enjoyed your story especially:

"I have a Master in India named Charan
and HE gave me 5 words
By phone , . . when she uttered "5 words" , . . I got Hyper Goose Bumps all over my body
and couldn't move, and couldn't speak
I phoned back as soon as I could - the GooseBumps & numbness was I think 15 minutes"

Not many people around who have such strong intuition and extra sensory perception :)

[Sonia]

Hi Um,

That’s a very good point about people with animals. It’s an excellent point actually. We have no problem accepting that zebras and giraffes and lions and dogs and birds, cows, etc are very different. We accept and respect their natures and don’t try to change them. Of course, we do try to teach our cats to use a scratching post instead of making every bit of furniture in the house their personal scratching post and we have to “potty train” our pups but we don’t expect dogs to act like cats or for cats to run when you call their name.

Sometimes I think we should look at humans that way and respect that although we humans are all of the same species, individually our natures are often as different as an eagle or a bear.

[💦😘💖💖.😘.💦]

@Jen
So nice You feel The Power

Myself, after that, . .
I like Charan ""next making tea and cookies""

777

[Um]

@ Sonia

That is it!

I came to understand that from a young lady in the family that runs a farm. She does like animals very much, not in the sense as "animal lovers" do who treat their animals as humans and are attached to them.

One day she phoned me an we came to talk about newborn cows and goats. You should have heard her voice and the kindness of heart with which she told about the difference between the animals from the very moment they were born. It is difficult to transmit here what happend to me. All of a sudden I realised how she looks at each animal as a different creatures and also that if she would look upon her own children in the same way, she and the children were well served.

Yes like people learn their cats and dogs how to behave in their homes without changing them, in the same way parents should teach children the ins and outs of the public domain, nothing more and nothing less. Humans need nothing more than to learn language and the rules of the cultural games to be played and untill that time the need shelter and food.

I am very gratefull towards her, opening my eyes, for how to look at creatures with joy … even if these creatures bring into the world things we dislike.

She has a little cow with a very nasty character, it will bite you if it can but you should have heard the amusement and joy in her voice whenever she spoke about the beast.

The animals traits etc do not command her emotions and thoughts but she commands how she looks upon the animals. In doing so she is not attached but FREE.

Lately the farm and family labrador passed away. She phone me telling about the dogs end … than she said, he was a good dog we all had much fun with one another. We buried the dog behind the shed. There was gratitude in her voice and no sadness. She will never speak again about the dog.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um and Sonia
All good teachers understand the nature of their students, and they tailor the message, just as do all good farmers.

But the lessons to be taught are the same. All triangles have internal angles that total 180 degrees without exception. A triangle can be only a triangle. An equilateral triangle has angles that are always identical and at 60 degrees.

Even the cow that bites must be taught to enter the barn at night.

The universe that exists within each of us is the same, though we experience different parts of it.

But a good behaviorist knows how to use each individual person's qualities to help them make progress. To lean about the triangle, and to naturally feel compelled to return to the barn at dusk.

Even to teach the dolphin how to jump through the flaming hoop, and the dog how to save the child and the soldier from a burning building

We are all individuals. But we also can grow. We can learn. Our knowledge is imperfect. That isn't hard for most people to see and accept. And learning and growing we become greater.

And there is so much we don't know. Perhaps there are two lessons here.

What is personal growth if not our own learning and development?

[um]

@ spence

What people learn is all rela1ated to socio- cultural affairs, the rules of the public domain.
It is like taking on clothes. Clothes don't change the human that wear them.
What we brought into this world, cannot be changed.

One could say that the lord, if there is one, created nature and human created culture.
We can only change what we created and even that only o a certain extend.

We might canalize the magma that erupts from an volcano but we cannot influence what
causes it deep in the earth.

[Sonia]

Hi Jen from Austin,

The first 5 times I went to the Dera I traveled “alone” (just the flight portion from US to Delhi but that doesn’t really feel like traveling alone). Is it that your husband won’t let you go at all or that you don’t want to travel by yourself? I mean, essentially once you get to Delhi you go straight to Pusa Road and meetup with lots of Satsangis for a day or two and then travel north 7 or so hours to Beas together... by train.

Of course if you’ve been before then know this. Have you been? If so, when? Just curious. 🙂

[Sonia]

Whodunit, I think 777 lives in France now.

[💦💖]

WhoUnit
777 you're in Holland? You know Ricco Argante from Utrecht?
I lost touch with him over 40 years ago Perhaps he's passed on by now.
Posted by: Whodunit | January 05, 2020 at 07:18 AM

Rico is here on this blog I heard from my friend
I left Holland 45. years ago - ruined PC business here in France
In Holland there is the proverb " Lives like God in France"

Brings me the thought now : Why is our situation so difficult to understand
There is only ONE and S/HE is Us
... and S/HE is my neighbour too and my cat; the musquito
... Why would such a Power be limited to one Jeeva. or 300
S/HE ( WE ) invented all this

When Brian asked : When God survives . . . will I too
the answer is Yes for the Love Part , . . . NO for the non-sense and cruelty
We just need never do harm

777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
People mature and gain wisdom, under God circumstances. And we all have a role to play in that.

[Um]

@ spence
Now and then, when the "god give circumstances" are "right", birds see trees in the refection of the window of our living room. In full velocity they will hit the window, the youngsters not the older ones. When they overcome the blow they will fly away as they came … they have learned a lesson but didn't change.

[Jen]

There is an inner yearning for connection with the sacred sound current...

The Audible Life Stream (Shabd) is the most effective way to achieve enlightenment and penetrate the illusion of death.

The Buddhas of the past used spiritual sound to escape from the wheel of birth and death.

Rumi also spoke of the transcendental music: "Bring the sky beneath your feet and listen to celestial music everywhere"

[Dungeness]

@ Rumi also spoke of the transcendental music: "Bring the sky beneath
@ your feet and listen to celestial music everywhere"

Obviously Rumi's sky was inside. Does "beneath your feet" have
significance? Par Brahm? Anyone, anyone... Ferris?

[Sonia]

@um

Funny story—when we were living in Seattle a baby bird flew in the house as I was coming inside from the balcony. My cat instinctively caught right away and held it in his mouth. Being an indoor cat his whole life he really didn’t know what to do next with the little bird. I grabbed my cat and managed to pry the bird lose from his mouth. It was a bit of a fight because he was proud of himself convinced he had done a “real cat thing”. The bird had no visible signs of injuries. I put him in a see through container with water and made sure he could get enough air. Either my cat had scared him into fainting or it’s instinctual for a bird to play dead when it’s in that kind of danger. Anyway, I was really upset and pretty much convinced he was dead. So, then I grabbed a picture of Charan and put it in front of the bird and prayed for it. I don’t know why I didn’t put a picture of Gurinder there—I think Charan’s was just closer by in the living room. Anyway, in about 5 minutes he came to and then 10 minutes after that I was able to take him to the balcony where he flew away again. Just a sweet, cute story. ☺️

[Whodunit]

OK 777
Rico would be around 80-85 now
I would estimate he was around 35-40 in '75
If he's around on this blog let him say hi.

"Bring the sky beneath your feet and listen to celestial music everywhere"
Rumi

bring the sky beneath your feet - transcend Pinda universe - be emmersed in source of love / sound

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Hi Sonia
No I have no issues traveling alone it’s more like my husband doesn’t think I should go. He will let me go but not happily and so it causes tension. I don’t understand his thought process but I have learned to live with it now.
Yes I have been to Dera many times. I used to go with my parents before I got married and then didn’t go for some 14 years because of my husband, when Babaji fell ill I made up my mind I am going to Dera and that’s when I returned. Was so happy to be back.

[Dungeness]

@ Either my cat had scared him into fainting or it’s instinctual for a bird
@ to play dead when it’s in that kind of danger

Indeed, a sweet story.

I just read birds often play dead when under threat. They wait until the
threatening animal has lost interest or is not paying attention and then
they spring to life and make their escape. A bird's version of "die while
living".

[Dungeness]

@ bring the sky beneath your feet - transcend Pinda universe - be emmersed
@ in source of love / sound

Thanks.

[Sonia]

@Dungeness

Good to know! My cat is huge and somehow managed to have the entire little bird in his mouth. Luckily the baby bird played dead and didn’t move around. If he had it might have stirred up my mancoon of a cat’s appetite!

:-)

[Sonia]

Jen from Austin,

I’m now considering Feb/Mar session because I hear April is really, really hot. My husband can handle the heat but I can’t.

You’re welcome to join. :-) We’d be leaving from Chicago though. I hope you’re not a travel Nazi like my husband! 😅 He travels like he’s on a mission to track the enemy. 🙄

[Jim Sutherland]

Whodunit writes,...” OK 777
Rico would be around 80-85 now
I would estimate he was around 35-40 in '75
If he's around on this blog let him say hi.”

Me: Rico was a long time member, and almost a daily Contributor on Lane’s Radha Studies Forum, about 3-4 years before the Gloria Farman meltdown. Rico was, ( is ) a Charan Singh Initiate, from Holland, as I remember. But I remember the Exers on RSS treating Rico very badly, and disrespecting him to the point of abuse. Rico described perfectly, what has happened in most of Europe and the U.K., and is now happening in the U.S. because of allowing multicultural immigrants in to the countries to do the work the Citizens don’t choose to do. Then, one day, the Citizens wake up to discover they have lost control of their countries to the disgruntled working immigrants. Rico unwrapped exactly what has happened to most of our countries. But when Rico shared loosing his Wife to Cancer, and getting no support from his usual enemies, ( Exers), he disappeared or might have changed his Avatar, I don’t know. But I always enjoyed Rico’s posts and points of view, and always felt sad watching him get disrespected so badly, with Lane never moderating, and letting Rico get disrespected so badly. Obviously, I hope Rico is still alive with us old folks.. As recall, Chris Crooks was the ONLY member on RSS who supported Rico,....until Chris was blocked from posting there.

[Rico]

Hi ….Whodunit

80 is wel wat veel :-) en ik ken niemand met zo'n naam.

[Spence Tepper]

"A master can be anywhere, in any country. India is not the only heritage for masters. When we are really sincere within ourselves - we want to follow the path but are worshiping the Lord by a wrong method, not the right sort of meditation - it is for the Lord to put us in the right path. What we need is a real yearning and devotion for him. Then it is his responsibility to work out how to put us on the path. He has his own ways and means of bringing people to the path, whatever country they belong to, or in whatever country they take their birth. He knows how to draw those souls. He knows how to collect those sheep.

"For him or dies not make any difference whether it is America, India or other countries. He just picks up from where he is to pick up. A master can be born here, a master can be born in any country. They are not known in the West because the West has never bothered about them ; it's not that they have never been in the West. It has no tendency to know them or study them or do research into their lives. In India, which is a little more spiritually minded, the masters have become known through their devotees or writers.

"Any country can have masters, must be having masters. But people have never bothered about them. It's not that they never had them ; they have just forgotten or never recorded those chapters in their history. "
-Maharaj Charan Singh, Spiritual Perspectives Volume 3, q and a number 515, page 456-457.

They don't carry formal titles. They aren't advertised in the media; they may hold no formal meetings in any building; they may have never written a single word or book about spirituality.

But they might be sitting next to you on the underground. They might be serving you lunch at the local diner. They might be fixing your car. They might be caring for you in a hospital.

[Spence Tepper]

In every religion, they can be found. Among Atheists, they can be found. The true Saints do not package the true Teachings. They don't even make such lofty claims as "True Teachings".

The packaging, the icons, the superheros people need because they are proud. They need big Masters to match their big egos. And that's OK. All are accommodated. But those who are not proud find a true Saint in their church, at their school, driving their Uber.

The ones with a big ego have to travel around the world for one guy in a robe.

[Spence Tepper]

And with that big ego also comes its evil twin, big fear. So out of big fear, big anxiety, people look for a bigger than life Guru, whose every word they consider sacred, even when that big Guru is ordering a sandwich.

[Whodunit]

Hallo Rico
Is je achternaam Argante?

De Italiaanse academische professor in de psychologie aan de Universiteit Utrecht?

[Whodunit]

I met Rico (if it's the same Rico) in London 1975 at a house in Wimbledon and then visited him and his Dutch wife at their apartment in Utrecht I think same year 1975. He was a psychology professor at Utrecht University.

Obviously (for certain reasons) my real name isn't Whodunit.

[Whodunit]

Thanks Jim S for the lowdown and information

[Rico]

Hallo Whodunit,

Hoe kom je er in hemelsnaam bij dat ik hoogleraar zou zijn?
Het is onmogelijk dat ik zoiets ooit gezegd of gesuggereerd zou hebben en ik vind het ook helemaal niet leuk om dit allemaal hier te lezen. Je geheugen moet je parten spelen.
Met wie heb ik trouwens het genoegen/??

[Anonom]

I guess we have to learn a new language to read things posted on this blog.

[Jen from austin Texas]

Sonia thank you for your offer but now is not a good time To make that trip. So what I wanted to tell you is ease up on your negativity about the path cause I know how it feels to be the spouse on the receiving end. 😊

[Whodunit]

Hallo Rico, mijn geheugen herinnert eraan dat je op dat moment les gaf in psychologie aan de Universiteit Utrecht. We ontmoetten elkaar in een huis gehuurd door Zuid-Afrikaanse mensen in Wimbledon, Londen. We woonden samen Punjabi satsang op de ijsbaan van Wembley. Later dat jaar (of misschien 1976) bezocht ik je appartement in Utrecht

[Whodunit]

Sorry for the foreign language (Dutch) but it's rather about trying to maintain a small vestige of anonymity while we fathom whether we've met many years ago or not.

[Rico]

@Whodunit

Uit je antwoord begrijp ik dat je geen Nederlandse bent.
Als je me een emailadres geeft dan praat ik verder met je.
Ik vind het niet leuk en gepast om hier mijn of andermans verleden op te graven

[Whodunit]

Probably not the same Rico (Argante)
Excuse the rigmarole

[Sonia]

I guess we have to learn a new language to read things posted on this blog.

Posted by: Anonom | January 06, 2020 at 11:00 AM

😂
What? You don’t speak Dutch?? Lol
https://translate.google.com/

Do you use Twitter?? It doesn’t matter what language someone writes in, you can just tap the translate button right there in the tweet.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ANONYMITY ON THE WEB.

[Sonia]

Jen from Austin,

Believe it or not, I rarely give my husband a hard time about RSSB. I respect his right to believe and worship/whatever however he wants and he does the same for me. But we both affectionately refer to it as “the cult” now. I said that several times in the beginning when I was mad so that’s what he calls it when he’s speaking to me. He’s like, “So you know that cult I belong to, well we’re all getting together for lunch on Sunday. Do want to join us”. Stuff like that. 😅

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia that is actually cute. I was in hostel 6 once and a lady told Babaji about how she was and has been always an atheist and ended up marrying this man who did not tell her about the path he followed or the master he believed in. When she found out after they were married she was livid and almost left him. Then one day she got into an accident and had a mystical experience which made her immediately realize its what her husband had been talking to her about all along. She was very apologetic in front of Babaji for giving her husband such a hard time all those years. Sounds like your story Sonia. Was that you??