I agree with Alan Watts. Except when I don't.

Below is a quotation from Alan Watts that someone emailed to me, asking what I thought of it. I've shared my response after the quotation, but I want to add on a few additional thoughts that came to mind after re-reading what Watts said.

I completely agree with Watts that there's a time and place for fully immersing ourselves in the lush sensuality of the world without putting on unnecessary coverings of thoughts, concepts, abstract ideas, and such.

Likewise, a warm bath or hot sauna feels best when completely naked.

But note my use of the word "unnecessary." Sometimes it makes sense to think while we're engaged in sensing the world. And sometimes it doesn't. Also, there are gradations of thinking, from mild to intense.

So it depends. There's no way to specify what "it" and "depends" refer to, because people are different; situations are different; so many other things can be different. 

In the first paragraph, Watts speaks of "giving up the attempt to make sense of the world in terms of any fixed idea or intellectual system."

YES! On this I heartily agree with Alan Watts.

Which means that what Watts says below can't be taken in any fixed way, nor can what I say in this blog post, nor can anyone else's ideas about anything. All we can do is do our best in any given situation. 

As one of my elementary school teachers, Eleanor Marshall, liked to say: Do your best. Angels can do no better.

Here's the quote from Watts:

Atheism in the name of God is an abandonment of all religious beliefs, including atheism, which in practice is the stubbornly held idea that the world is a mindless mechanism. Atheism in the name of God is giving up the attempt to make sense of the world in terms of any fixed idea or intellectual system.

It is becoming again as a child and laying oneself open to reality as it is actually and directly felt, experiencing it without trying to categorize, identify or name it. This can be most easily begun by listening to the world with closed eyes, in the same way that one can listen to music without asking what it says or means.

This is actually a turn-on, a state of consciousness in which the past and future vanish (because they cannot be heard) and in which there is no audible difference between yourself and what you are hearing. There is simply universe, an always present happening in which there is no perceptible difference between self and other, or, as in breathing, between what you do and what happens to you.

Without losing command of civilized behavior, you have temporarily "regressed" to what Freud called the oceanic feeling of the baby, the feeling that we all lost in learning to make distinctions, but that we should have retained as their necessary background, just as there must be empty white paper under this print if you are to read it.

When you listen to the world in this way, you have begun to practice what Hindus and Buddhists call meditation, a re-entry to the real world, as distinct from the abstract world of words and ideas.

If you find that you can't stop naming the various sounds and thinking in words, just listen to yourself doing that as another form of noise, a meaningless murmur like the sound of traffic. I won't argue for this experiment. Just try it and see what happens, because this is the basic act of faith of being unreservedly open and vulnerable to what is true and real. ~Alan Watts

And here's what I said in my email reply.

I sort of understand what Watts is saying here, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. 

We adults are not babies. We can’t regress ourselves back into a baby-like state where we lack words, concepts, and such. I can’t look at my coffee mug without thinking, “I just drank coffee out of it.” Viewing it simply as a blueish object with a semi-circular thingie on one side seems exceedingly backward and counter-productive.

It’s a coffee mug with a handle.

Sure, I enjoy going on dog walks and doing Tai Chi with minimal thinking. But minimal doesn’t mean non-existent. In the back of my mind there’s an awareness of where I am and what I’m doing that involves words and concepts. I see no problem with this.

I read a lot of books about neuroscience. There’s no such thing as “pure awareness.” The brain is actively engaged in making sense of the senses, so to speak. Our past experiences with something inform how we view that something now. This isn’t a problem. It’s a feature of how the human brain makes sense of reality.

In my view, we shouldn’t be trying to regress ourselves into an infantile state. Instead, we should use our current adult consciousness as a springboard to become wiser, more compassionate, kinder, more caring.

That said, I should have noted in my response that Watts spoke of listening to our verbal inner dialogue "as another form of noise, a meaningless murmur like the sound of traffic."

This is close to my understanding of what mindfulness practices teach, though Watts is more extreme in his disavowal of concepts and thoughts. There's nothing wrong with thoughts. There's nothing wrong with concepts. There's nothing wrong with the words we speak inside our head. 

(Most people do this. However, I've read that some people lack inner speech, substituting images, intuitions, and such for words spoken to ourself.)

My problem with what Watts said in the quotation above is that while he claims that his goal is to be "open to reality as it is actually and directly felt," seemingly he wants to ignore the reality of thoughts, concepts, and abstract ideas when they are directly felt within one's brain. 

Mindfulness means being open to everything we experience. The good, the bad, and the ugly. Thoughts and thoughtlessness. Emotions. Sensory impressions. And so much more. Our goal is to be as non-judgmentally aware as possible of what is within and without us.

This leads to living life more vividly. It doesn't mean that we welcome everything that happens, or give up our hopes for our life to change in certain ways. It simply means that, as Watts correctly said, we open ourself to reality as it is.

Comments

[Sonia]

Another great post. What struck me the most was what you added: “Our goal is to be as non-judgmentally aware as possible of what is within and without us.”

That has to be one of the hardest things to do... but I get it. Not there. But it makes sense.

That’s all I’m going to say for now... and will try not to keep commenting until other people do (lot of time on my hands with the long holiday/s).

[Vinny]

Mindfulness is just full awareness of everything how Kaal is extracting the energy of beings by trapping them in forms.

[Jesse]

Alan Watts is great because whatever he's saying in the quotes above he's contradicted somewhere else. At times I hate that sort of spineless meandering intellectualism, but more often I appreciate it in my old age of nearly 40, especially when the topic is something "spiritual." Listening to hardliners of any religion or mystical sect does nothing but aggravate and agitate my pure and holy brain now that I'm among the senior citizen class.

As you said yourself, there's a time and place for everything. While we can't literally become like infants, I do think it's possible to get into states that are far less cerebral where phenomena pass by without our brain actively identifying or categorizing. I think we've all "zoned out" before to such an extent that it's as if we're both awake and dreaming at the same time, and once you snap out of it, it's as if time just disappeared and you can't remember what or if you were thinking, or what was happening in your surroundings while you were out.

If I've ever experienced bliss in my adult life, it would have to be during those moments when I was so out of it that I might as well have been drooling. You're not a mystic until you drool at the skatepark while looking at the sun as an ice cream cone melts onto your hand and you wake up to the pain of a skateboard hitting you in the ankle.

[Georgy Porgy]

Yeah some of watts stuff kinda makes sense, but it’s alao a lot of jibba jabba. I kind of like my messages simple cos I’m not that bright.

Watts’ stuff sort of makes sense in an ethereal way but not really. It does seem to contradict itself and disappear up its own butt.

If I listened to that Gurinder , he makes much more sense to me. I didn’t hear any of this wierd cosmology - someone asked about kal, and he just said forget about kal.

Wonder if ppl don’t make this stuff more religious than it is. Perhaps the original RS teaching had books that tried to convey these experiences in a more religious time , but I didnt hear any of that from the guru. I didn’t hear about the 7 planes of existence or kal anything like that. The closest he got was the shabd. Actually I got the bizarre impression that many of the ppl at the satsang were more religious than the guru. He was actually making jokes and light of some of their ‘crazy’ religious questions.

[tucson]

I don't think Watts is suggesting that we try to remain always in that 'mindless' state. Rather, when that mindless-objectlessness happens as it does often throughout the day, to recognize what remains in that objectless state as what we really are.. infinite conscious awareness. This is not something we can choose to do because that doing is another object and what we would see is another object still. There is nothing to be done. Nothing to be seen. It is the seeing, not a thing seen. It is the perceiving, not the object perceived. If you think you see it.. that's not it. "You" will never see it. Yet here it is.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

Admit it, you’re in love with Gurinder. You’re just afraid to tie the knot. Fear of commitment??

This is where Watts lost me (at the beginning):

”Atheism in the name of God
is an abandonment of all religious beliefs, including atheism, which in practice is the stubbornly held idea that the world is a mindless mechanism.“

But when I got to the end of the post after reading Watts’ quote and Brian’s reply it made more sense and I liked the direction it was heading.

I agree with Jesse’s sentiments about “spineless meandering intellectualism”. I mean, I’m not anti-logic but no need to get all pretentious about it. Some erudites are enlightening and some are just painfully pretentious. Maybe they don’t mean to be but a message is better received when you don’t have to feel stupid trying to understand it. 😂

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonia

Nope - far from love. He speaks sense. I was actually amazed. But I’m probably too guarded, too rationale, too much of an atheist to make any real progress. I think some ppl get a look (darshan) and they know. I never had that, but I think there were things going on that I couldn’t quite put into words. Dunno. Early days still. But maybe what you actually do need to do is too fall head over heels in love with the object of your devotion. Isn’t it all based on Bhakti yoga?

All I know is there are experiences far deeper than I can fathom intellectually. And I think certain ppl might know how to glimpse some of that.

Tucson

Do you still meditate these days? RS meditation or something else?

[Chela]

Sonia said
“Georgy,

Admit it, you’re in love with Gurinder”

Totally in love 😍

Ps sorry to chime in

[tucson]

Georgy inquired:

"Tucson

Do you still meditate these days? RS meditation or something else?"

--No, not really, if you mean sitting formally in some discipline with a purpose or goal in mind or following a teacher/guru. It's funny though. I sometimes notice my mind doing RS style simran. You know, the five names. Old habits die hard. I mean, I quit that path/religion over 20 years ago. I have no path or religion now. Nothing like that. I am not an atheist although my idea of what the "theist" part of atheist means may not agree with the concept of it others have. Any descriptive thought of it just limits it.

How about you?

[Sonia]

Sonia said
“Georgy,

Admit it, you’re in love with Gurinder”

Totally in love 😍

Ps sorry to chime in

Posted by: Chela | December 28, 2019 at 02:16 PM

Yeah... so this is a little off topic. Something for OT27

[Sonia]

Georgy,

I was a stupid idiot in love and it ended very badly. Nearly drove me to suicide. That’s pretty cultish. Drove me to drink and then I woke up.

Bhakti? I don’t know...

Atheist?? You’re an atheist? Now you have me completely confused.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

If this helps with your thoughts about RS or Gurinder, I was as “Bhakti” as one can get and it was a devastating ending. So, bhakti to a Master isn’t going to save you. That’s what makes me question why we even need a living master. If it’s the Master within that “saves” us then no need for the physical guru. You might as well join any faith or just remain atheist. I’ve read several NDE’s about atheists and they had the same beautiful experiences that spiritual people describe. Love is universal. Cults aren’t.

[Georgy Porgy]

Tucson

Nah just interested in what you do now after RS and your thoughts on meditation generally. Dunno if I have the discipline for it - but definitely seems key in many paths.

Sonia and Chela

Yip sounds like you might be - I think that’s a good thing for the path. But I’m not in raptures yet. If I was in love with him - wouldn’t be afraid to say it. I might fall in lust with a pretty woman, but I’m not really a lovey-dovey type, except for maybe a soft spot for furry critters like cats and dogs.

[Arjuna]

Never worship a man who is not of good character- sawan singh said that you should walk away.

He needs to come clean about the financial mess. Also when his wife dies he carried on as normal. What kind of example is he setting . Sorry mate we are human and grief is part a nd parcel of that - no one has seen Narnia so stop harping on about it. And what the hell are those statues at beas? What's that all a out????? I dont worship idols.

[anami]

I would describe bhakti more like learning Hebrew with a secret wish to date Gal Gadot.

[Sonia]

And what the hell are those statues at beas? What's that all a out????? I dont worship idols.

Posted by: Arjuna | December 29, 2019 at 02:50 AM

Seriously!? What are they?? So bizarre. GSD says they have meaning but he won’t share what the meaning of the most obnoxious statues is with anyone. It’s like one of his games. I’ve said it before, they look like they were forged in bowels of Mordor. I believe Gurinder consulted Sauron on the design of the statues.

[Sonia]

I would describe bhakti more like learning Hebrew with a secret wish to date Gal Gadot.

Posted by: anami | December 29, 2019 at 06:10 AM

You’re quippy and clever.

[Sonia]

If I was in love with him - wouldn’t be afraid to say it. I might fall in lust with a pretty woman, but I’m not really a lovey-dovey type, except for maybe a soft spot for furry critters like cats and dogs.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | December 29, 2019 at 01:17 AM

First of all, are you an atheist? Were you an atheist? Just curious. If so, I could understand your interest in Brian’s blog. But if you’re considering converting from Atheism to RS seems like you’re goin’ about it a little backwards... just imo.

I’m not afraid to admit I was in love with Gurinder. Still am in a very unhealthy way. I don’t think that will ever go away to be honest. But as the good book says, “the heart is desperate and treacherous”. That’s why one should apply logic to everything. Gurinder is continually falling in lust with every pretty girl that “worships” him. He’s just your everyday typical rockstar guru who can’t live without his groupies. And that’s what they are.

If I followed Alan Watt’s sentiments, “giving up the attempt to make sense of the world in terms of any fixed idea or intellectual system.“ then I would still be one of Gurinder’s groupies. But I’ve learned to have a little more self-respect. Do you think he was in love with his wife? How do you think she felt about all of his flirting with other women. Others have said it really bothered her.

[Meditator]

How much of spirituality can one gain by different practices including meditation except RSSB ways and means. Thats seems to be discussed here.

Spirituality the RSSB type opens up everything that can not be perceived or contemplated or worked upon by any other means as of now available in World. The only, of late, Obstacle has become the. disbelief in the Engine pulling the masses into spirituality and Godliness. While He has been spotted to play around with Maya (as alleged by witnesses and alleged evidence) what He has already transcended. Anyways He denies any illwills towards the human and Humanity who He loves and tends. At the same time preaching same strict morals for success in realising self and Him. Obviously it has been taken for granted by the audience. that He already is exercising same to perfection as a perfect Human and Being-God-alike.

As for His take on Kal and Khand/ spiritual levels He perhaps wishes us to gain at. least elementary knowledge/ experience of spirituality than merely engage in an intellectual projection of spirituality and God.

[Sonia]

I really believe all that matters is being a good person. And since Atheists apparently experience the same things in NDEs it’s caused to me to really think about “spiritual experiences” differently. Haven’t reached a verdict but I’m certain you can’t just say some mantra for 2.5 hours each day with your eyes closed, act like an asshole and wind up being better off than those who do what they can to make their homes and communities a better place. RSSB is all about worshipping one man—a “perfect living master”. What century are we living in??? Might as well tear down the old Satsangar and put up another stone henge. I believe the Druids were more enlightened.

[tucson]

"RSSB is all about worshipping one man—a “perfect living master”.

-- I used to ask this question on this blog about once a year and more often maybe 8-10 years ago...

How does one determine if the master is "perfect"? If you were able to determine that as fact then it follows you would be "perfect" yourself and you wouldn't need a "perfect" master because you are already perfect! Takes one to know one, as the saying goes.

Of course the RS teachings say he is perfect. The disciple just has to do the discipline.. simran and bhajan, the "science", have faith, and one day, maybe in four lifetimes, they will know if the master is "perfect". What if it turns out the master isn't perfect?... bummer.

Four lifetimes? Are they still saying that? That's a tough pill to swallow. What exactly is it that has four lifetimes? A mind body? An astral body? A soul? A karmic cluster? What is its location, form and dimension? Can you locate it?

If you do locate it you may find that "it" has no dimension, form or location, only presence. Find out what this Presence is.. Recognize it.

Now you're on to something.

[Sonia]

Hi Tucson,

I think even Charan was perplexed at the Sangat’s belief that it could take up to 4 lifetimes. He didn’t believe that. He said there was no guarantee.

Alan Watts was a pretty cool dude. I resonate with this quote from him:

“But I'll tell you what hermits realize. If you go off into a far, far forest and get very quiet, you'll come to understand that you're connected with everything.”

Isn’t that supposedly what Sant Mat is all about? Our connection to everything. Not just a Master. As GSD has said so many times, “shoot the Buddha”. I take that to mean that it’s not the outward master but the inner journey that matters. Being alone in nature you realize how connected every form of life is. And I don’t care if “you like your dairy”. When you are alone in nature you start to feel the connection. You realize every action you take either helps or harms the Creation. Why should cows suffer in corporate farming just because we want a treat of ice cream. Why should anyone or anything suffer? We’ll never understand the answer to those questions until we can connect with nature and all that is. “All that is” is in our world and in our universe. Beyond that, who can say...

[Dungeness]

@ "RSSB is all about worshipping one man—a “perfect living master”.
@ How does one determine if the master is "perfect"? If you were able to determine
@ that as fact then it follows you would be "perfect" yourself and you wouldn't need
@ "a perfect" master because you are already perfect! "

I think mysticism relies on confirmation within of both the path and
the master himself. Without that, how could you possibly know how
"perfect" the master was.

To evaluate a path, the disciple needs the validating experience
that comes with practicing its meditative discipline. That is the
important metric. Otherwise, it's speculation and/or blind faith.

There's an initial trust and openness to a trial run. If that fails, you seek
guidance, ask questions, or, if unsatisfied, jettison the practice for some
other approach. If there's some success, who cares about "perfection"?
Or whether you should set up a shrine for "worship of the perfect one".

Of course, the disciple may opt to try another approach if the master
is transparently corrupt or fails to meet some other benchmark for a
perfect master's behavior too. Just declare him/her "imperfect" and
move on.

[tucson]

Hi Sonia,
Yes, I also think Charan was not big on the four lifetime thing. Not sure where that started. Dr. Johnson maybe? I don't know. It may be in Sar Bachan. Anyway, doesn't matter.

Watts said, "If you go off into a far, far forest and get very quiet, you'll come to understand that you're connected with everything.”

-- I don't think you need to go to a forest. A crowded airport will do, but a forest is fine.

"Why should anyone or anything suffer?"

-- The Universe manifests via polarity, the pairs of opposites. Pleasure and pain go hand in hand. Birth begets death.

Hi Dungeness,

You wrote: "There's an initial trust and openness to a trial run. If that fails, you seek
guidance, ask questions, or, if unsatisfied, jettison the practice for some
other approach."

-- I agree, but it's the folks hanging tough repeating those names, waiting for the light at the end of the tunnel until the fourth lifetime, or even the first as the guru promises, or at the time of death. What if it is seen as bogus then? The guru turned out to be just another slob on the bus. They might say, "Damn, now what? Too late."

Actually, it doesn't matter. It's all good. Just passing phenomena in consciousness which always remains just as it is.

[Georgy Porgy]

Nope I haven’t seen Gurinder looking too play the field. Are you sure you are not misreading the situation. Don’t confuse good-natured interactions with anything more then that.

Personally, I have an old fashioned view of marriage - which is if you are going to committ and say your vows, for better or worse, then you stick to them and don’t fool around behind the other person’s back without telling them first. That my own morality. But anyway I haven’t seen Gurinder misbehaving with the ladies. He seems like a wise good-natured uncle - I don’t get the sense in any way that he’s schtupping the female satsangi flock.

Don’t confuse having a magnetic personality, and charisma, and even being adored - by someone who is self-aware of those gifts, but chooses not to misuse them.

[Sonia]

Georgy Porgy,

I hope that’s true. On another note, my husband and I have finally decided to adopt a child. Even in our old age lol. He’s almost 56 and I’m 47 but there are so many children out there in need of a loving home. It will be a year or more to get approved but well worth any effort it takes.

So, I’m happy. Gurinder can do what he wants.

[s*]

Hi Sonia,
That seems a very good idea,a child in need can have loving parents <3,
and it makes you a mom..good!
Your husband is doing good, also his parents, to let you be as you are,
even when they stick to Santmat.

Wish you and all others a Very Happy New Year!
Love,
s*

[Roger]

Actuality, we open our self to reality as it is.

The three aspects of actuality are:
1. All things (as defined) are impermanent.
2. All things (as defined) are insubstantial as things (as defined) in or if themselves.
3. No first cause of anything (as defined) can be evidentially established.

[um]

@Roger

Do elaborate on these sutra´s, esp. no 2

[Spence Tepper]

The beauty of meditation is that we become aware of different levels of consciousness. We have to build and rebuild our sand castle of identity and consciousness every day. Better to be aware, and then we build a better version, closer to our own sentiments, more honest of our own limitations, on a foundation of love, a foundation of gold.

Why is awareness so important? So that we act with harmlessly. Or less harmfully. That feels peaceful. It feels more connected and respectful of this amazing reality and our connections to it.

Sometimes we have to put aside our thinking in order to heighten the sensitivity of our awareness. It cleans us. But in retrospect, it's fine to think about the miracle we just lived through, so that we can pursue that miracle, and build our life around it.

[Meditator]

Another year about to run over and some year some moment I will be pulled behind forehead and forced to leave. Considering meditation, assisted/guided or not by an adept as rehearsal to those moments staying at eye centre shoud be. an obvious routine.

It must be painful for the Master to see some of His loved ones exploring other better options leaving the best available and provided as invaluable gift.

Perhaps it has been primarily the character of the Master as projected by Him, of late confusing most if not setting them against Him and taking it as His private matter may not be appropriate.

For some it has been most obviously indgestible. It is for my Lord to see to it and shower His grace and remove all confusions in the New Year coming in the way of realising Him.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
You wrote
"It must be painful for the Master to see some of His loved ones exploring other better options leaving the best available and provided as invaluable gift."

If He sees all, past present and future, then it can't be any bother at all. Bother only happens when expectations aren't met. We can be disappointed that we ourselves haven't met our own expectations. Maybe we haven't lived as purely as Alan Watts or Brian Ji or Baba Ji describe, each trying to get at a finer truth.

But as my young cousin likes to say, "comparisons are odious".

What is the benchmark, when any benchmark is a mental construction?

If I knew Baba Ji, naturally I would not wish to disappoint him. And not knowing him, maybe even more so. Because then, Baba Ji, for the individual, can only be the standard of the teachings themselves. Who is that guy? Sinner or Saint? We can only paint a picture with our own limited paint box. And those colors are all us.

Teachings are something else. You can dig into them, under them. You can inspect how they resonate within you. Just as the words of Brian Ji, or Alan Watts, resonates within us, opens something up, at first unconscious, so that we seek to understand more.

Alan, Brian Ji and Baba Ji each have their being inside us. Whether we like it or not. We carry their personified and projected persona within us, we recreate it precisely the same way the brain recreates the entire visual and auditory field of reality for us. So let's get to know Alan and Brian Ji, Jesus and Baba Ji within us. They stand for important things, finer truths. They are all complementary, not oppositional at all. And that is because they are all different aspects of the same internal and external reality.

[Roger]

Repeating habitual patterns of thinking, speaking and acting that result in worry, is never reasonable.

Here is a very basic formulation of the problem of happiness.

1. All human experience has within it the potential for unhappiness because all human experience is impermanent and insubstantial in or of itself.

2. The cause of any experience of unhappiness is based on our conditioned reaction that we do not like the experience as it is and want it to be other than it is.

3. Unhappiness is not compulsory and it can be alleviated and eradicated within the human experience.

4. The way to realize this is to develop insight into actuality that is free from conditioned subjectivity.

[Jen]

"So let's get to know Alan and Brian Ji, Jesus and Baba Ji within us."

No flipping way! No need imo to manifest other entities within. I think the most important essence within us is our higher self, a tiny drop which longs to merge with the ocean of Oneness, call it what you may, Shabd, the Audible Life Stream, thats where we belong and who we really are.

Cheers and much love to everyone, Happy New Year :)

[Sonia]

Repeating habitual patterns of thinking, speaking and acting that result in worry, is never reasonable.

Posted by: Roger | December 31, 2019 at 11:31 AM

Roger, Roger. 🥳

[Sonia]

If I knew Baba Ji, naturally I would not wish to disappoint him. And not knowing him, maybe even more so. Because then, Baba Ji, for the individual, can only be the standard of the teachings themselves. Who is that guy? Sinner or Saint? We can only paint a picture with our own limited paint box. And those colors are all us.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 31, 2019 at 10:24 AM

Looking back, I don’t think I was ever in love with the teachings. I was in love with the teacher.

[Sonia]

Personally, I have an old fashioned view of marriage - which is if you are going to committ and say your vows, for better or worse, then you stick to them and don’t fool around behind the other person’s back without telling them first.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | December 30, 2019 at 08:10 PM

I reread your comment and was like whaaaat???

“ and don’t fool around behind the other person’s back without telling them first.”

What woman is going to be OK with that?? Have you ever been married???

[Sonia]

So, I guess that’s why it’s a much more emotionally charged subject for me. And, yes, I do wear my heart on my sleeves. That coupled with a natural tendency towards being overly communicative with an uninhibited filter makes for a lot of disputing. But 2020–I’m going to give adulting a try.

It’s funny, my brother and I always shared the same off color sense of humor but now that he’s having his first child at 39 he’s turned into someone I don’t even recognize. He doesn’t laugh anymore at my off colored jokes and I can see in his eyes he’s thinking how inappropriate that would be for me to say in front of his soon to be born baby girl. He and his wife have also recently joined a church which is a new thing for them. It’s weird how children change people.

Perhaps adopting a child will make me grow up too. Don’t know. It’s hard to say...

[Sonia]

But for now, I’m going to watch Zombie Land 2 with my husband and 12 year old niece. May 2020 be a blessed year for everyone.

Happy New Year’s Eve to everyone here and all your loved ones. :-)

[Sonia]

The Beauty of Nothingness — Alan Watts

https://youtu.be/ivurmn3hnwc

I hope Nothingness includes falling in love.

Happy New Year everyone! ❤️

[Meditator]

Mr Spence,
Since some of us may have to sit on judgement putting standards of a perfect Saint as Jesus, Nanak, dearest et al and even poorer penny honest, extra-ethical satsangis by the commoners (not. advanced as yet. spiritually) among sangat and their conclusions on mere intellectual reasoning are. justified and which seems . to make them hopeless and helpless on a land full of. bitter surprises every step every moment. In fact they had been all peaceful before by simply relying on their blind faiths grossly.

Your take that Truth can never be challenged and should not be as it may not be visible to most immediately is fair and appropriate.

He is the Prime Doer and we are just observers and I would love to be a helpless observer.

[Meditator]

My previous comment was sent in haste. May not be understandable fully.

The Master appears not to have strictly followed what He preaches and what Jesus, Nanak et al have held as sane as concluded by some of us. The against argument seems justified even though it may be only half truth from divine angle or that privately held by the Master and His family for the reasons best known to Him and them.

[Sonia]

Alan, Brian Ji and Baba Ji each have their being inside us. Whether we like it or not. We carry their personified and projected persona within us, we recreate it precisely the same way the brain recreates the entire visual and auditory field of reality for us. So let's get to know Alan and Brian Ji, Jesus and Baba Ji within us. They stand for important things, finer truths. They are all complementary, not oppositional at all. And that is because they are all different aspects of the same internal and external reality.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 31, 2019 at 10:24 AM

Spence,

For whatever reason, people often seem to get your message confused. Anyway, I totally get what you’re saying here and I appreciate it. :)

🥳

[Georgy Porgy]

You suggested GSD behaved inappropriately while married.

1. I think that’s false, and is based on your own incorrect personal view.

2. During marriage (life), I believe men and women are attracted to ppl other than their spouses. I believe it’s called biology, no escaping it. Some act on it. Personally, I don’t think they should, as they’ve given vows (commitments), which I personally believe should be deeply respected because:

- It says how sincere your character is and how true you are to yourself. If you can’t trust yourself, who can you trust?

- It should avoid hurting others as much as possible. I suspect that most suffering is caused by the betrayal of trust, not by the adultery itself. So if you’re daft (lucky) enough to get married in the first place, don’t break your vows without first fronting-up to your spouse beforehand (who can decide if they want to end it). Of course, most don’t and in reality often try blaming the other party for their own weakness. Seems to me not unlike many ex-satsangis.

[Arjuna]

@ georgy

You are very naive in matters of men and women. Lol.

You will learn

[Sonia]

Georgy,

I honestly can’t say that GSD behaved inappropriately while married. He flirted with women sometimes (maybe even with men, I just didn’t notice). I was wrong to say he “fell in lust” with every pretty girl. I don’t know that to be a fact. Although, I’m not sure which is more dangerous—falling in lust or falling in love.

Anyway, I very seriously doubt he had a physical affair with anyone—he had bodyguards and was surrounded by people all the time. Don’t think it would have been physically possible.

And I hear what you’re saying but my husband says that in the 20 years we’ve been together he’s never been attracted to another woman. Although I do find this very hard to believe, he has consistently said it since we started dating. It’s called respect.

Maybe he’s just smart. Or maybe he respects me enough not to flirt with other women in front of me. It happened a few times when we were first married—I made a HUGE public scene—And he never did it again. 😂

Even if one is attracted to someone else, how far do you let it go? I understand though, and it usually points to something or several things wrong in the marriage.

At the end of the day, we are “biological creatures” but it’s all about respecting your spouse’s feelings. Respect is the only way to keep jealousy from destroying a marriage. Jealousy kills everything. However, if your spouse doesn’t give a damn what you do, then I guess you can do whatever you want.

[Spence Tepper]

Baba Ji once told an a questioner that the beautiful woman we long for in college and want to marry may not end up being the best wife.

The qualities, he said, that we are drawn to may not be those that will help us most.

True for so many things.

[Sonia]

Baba Ji once told an a questioner that the beautiful woman we long for in college and want to marry may not end up being the best wife.

The qualities, he said, that we are drawn to may not be those that will help us most.

True for so many things.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | January 01, 2020 at 09:43 AM

It doesn’t matter who you marry, you’re going to learn a lot of big life lessons either way—good and bad. My friend’s mom was married three times and she told me that she married each of her husbands for different reasons—1st marriage was more attachment, 2nd marriage was for live, and third marriage was primarily a practical marriage. Then she told me that in each case she would have been just as well off to marry a random stranger in the street.

I say marry for love. Believe it or not every relationship I’ve ever had was based on a list of practical requirements. And my boyfriends were nice people. My husband is an amazing guy... but I think being practical in matters of the heart is overrated.

[Sonia]

Correction: second marriage was for love not “live”... not for life either. Her 1st and 3rd husbands died. She’s on her 4th now—another practical marriage. They spend as much time apart as possible. 😄 She may not sound like a good example to use but I can think of lots of people who have married for love and then married for money. Or the other way around. When people marry for money they often end up lonely in the end.

Older Indians are too practical.

[Sonia]

OK, that last comment post of mine doesn’t make any sense because it was a follow up to the other comment I wrote just before it which wasn’t posted. 🧐

I feel like this has happened a few times lately and not sure if it’s a technical issue on my side or not... 🤔🤔🤔

[Sonia]

Correction: second marriage was for love not “live”... not for life either. Her 1st and 3rd husbands died. She’s on her 4th now—another practical marriage. They spend as much time apart as possible. 😄 She may not sound like a good example to use but I can think of lots of people who have married for love and then married for money. Or the other way around. When people marry for money they often end up lonely in the end.

Older Indians are too practical.

Posted by: Sonia | January 01, 2020 at 10:30 AM

OK, it must have been a technical error on my part. The gist of what I said prior to this comment was that the mother of a close friend of mine had been married 3 times (when she told me this). First marriage was a boyfriend she became attached to. Second marriage was for love and the third marriage was a marriage of convenience. She said in each case she would have done just as well to grab a stranger off the street and marry them. 😆

I’ve always been “practical” in choosing my boyfriends/partners. It always ends the same. But I love my husband—I’m not saying I don’t. It’s just regardless of why you marry, you’re going to learn some big life lessons either way—good and bad. That’s life. Might as well love the one you’re with.

[Georgy Porgy]

See even Brother Spence is now proving how wise uncle Gurinder is. Queen of hearts is always your best bet.

[Sonia]

This is oddly coincidental. Didn’t see it till just now. My husband is always sending me self-help videos... like daily (more than just a hint—so I often put off watching them till he asks me if I watched them). Yesterday he sent me this link to a video of Alan Watts telling the story of the Chinese farmer. I love the simplicity of the video. Even Georgy Porgy will be able to follow it.

Here it is: https://youtu.be/byQrdnq7_H0

[Georgy Porgy]

Sorry Sonia I don’t understand.

If it helps a Canadian friend once described me as ‘dumber than a sack of hammers’ after a spirituality argument when I questioned his wierd-arse beliefs.

The good news here at the CoC is that we have Brother Spence who can enlighten us with a sermon or Brother Manjit who can post a thesis.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Meditator
You wrote
"The Master appears not to have strictly followed what He preaches and what Jesus, Nanak et al have held as sane as concluded by some of us. The against argument seems justified even though it may be only half truth from divine angle or that privately held by the Master and His family for the reasons best known to Him and them."

Yes, the outer Master, by the facts of where money flowed, appears to be a Mastermind thief.

But this is the same guy who came to visit my son, apparently in the flesh, when he was all alone.

The same guy who spoke forgiveness and so many wise and kind things.

The same guy who did a number of miraculous things.

Or maybe he's not the same guy at all.

I only know the one who is helping me. That guy is fantastic. I have only gratitude for him.

The other guy, well, I'm happy to help in any way. Facts are coming out and hopefully we'll get a full picture, but in some ways it hardly matters. Only that the guy involved with financial stuff certainly should and will be held to the legal and Morale standards, if only because the other Gurinder created them.

[Daljit]

@ Georgy Porgy.
You said
>>I didn’t hear any of this wierd cosmology - someone asked about kal, and he just said forget about kal.<<

I think GSD has himself figured out by now that all the fancy tales spun by earlier RRSB gurus are just harry potter stories.
The shepherd is now trying to make the herd let go of these stories, but the sheep won't let go.
I guess this must be happening more in English/western satsangs where the sheep are better educated then the general masses.
I wonder what will happen if he starts telling at the Dera that the Guru won't be coming at death and there is no guaranteed ticket to La LA Land.
How will the herd react? Will there be a stampede?
I pity his position some time :)

[Sonia]

Sorry Sonia I don’t understand.

If it helps a Canadian friend once described me as ‘dumber than a sack of hammers’ after a spirituality argument when I questioned his wierd-arse beliefs.

The good news here at the CoC is that we have Brother Spence who can enlighten us with a sermon or Brother Manjit who can post a thesis.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | January 02, 2020 at 07:51 AM

Seriously??? I think you pretend to be a lot dumber than you are. It couldn’t be any simpler. I think GSD may have even shared the story of the Chinese farmer once. Perhaps he dumbed it down even more and said something like, “some times bad things happen for good reasons... or not. Who can say.” (like Malav and Shivi being in Jail 😬).

Malav looks like Charan but even more handsome. And Shiv... well, he would have been an interesting successor. 😳

[Georgy Porgy]

But is the moral of the story not to lose your horse?

It’s okay I don’t have one.

[Sonia]

But is the moral of the story not to lose your horse?

It’s okay I don’t have one.

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | January 03, 2020 at 02:08 AM

😑

[Georgy Porgy]

Daljit

Yes, that’s the feeling I also got.

The coming at the time of death is hard for me to understand, but less so than some of the other cosmology (7 planes etc). Maybe the 7 planes exist - but I don’t see any objective evidence for such precision. Why 7?

But maybe something more to the guru coming at the time of death etc. Dunno about astral travel etc or if its physical, psychiological or spiritual. Guess death is the final frontier when all will be revealed or not.

Maybe it’s just lights out as the atheist believes, but I tend to believe the mystics might be onto something, i.e. our reality has a depth which we only superficially and often wrongly glimpse (plato’s cave, maya, etc).

It’s not only that the same event can be seen in two different ways (Sonia’s story) but if the mystic are to be believed, then what we humans physically experience, might be positively opposite to reality. So what we see as death and the end, might in reality be the start of a new life. We certainly have no evidence for this, but the older I get the more you realize is that what superficially seems to be the case, is often exactly the opposite from reality.

Seems the gurus/mystics are trying to convey a message that is so different from everyday experience of most that they need to do so with words and concepts and cosmologies that they think might resonate better with their audience.

Perhaps rssb is not for a western educated audience. Perhaps metaphor, fantasy and imagination are the hall marks of a more childlike and/or imaginative state, meaning that cultures or people that are less inculcated with western materialism and science are more receptive to spiritual progress and insights.

Apologies to all, this post is challenging Bro Manjit for the booker prize. The first and only one worthy of a banning from Bro Binesey imo.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

I’m sorry, what exactly is “my story”??

[Georgy Porgy]

The story you posted above about the farmer.

Serious question: Are you paranoid bonkers or something?

All I know is this poor guru

[Sonia]

Serious question: Are you paranoid bonkers or something?

All I know is this poor guru

Posted by: Georgy Porgy | January 03, 2020 at 02:46 PM

Perhaps.

But still, “this poor guru” isn’t poor at all.

For someone who doesn’t even want to get initiated you seem to be his biggest fan.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

You’ve got a serious crush on Gurinder. You are completely blind to the possibility of him having even a single fault.

[Sonia]

I guess it doesn’t matter what you do, sooner or later it all catches up with you. In this life or the next. Clearly I did something really wrong in a past life. It’s haunting me. That’s payment enough.

[Sonia]

Can’t make amends for past life stuff. That’s why alcoholics continue to want to drink till they die.

[Georgy Porgy]

Sonia

If you think so, fine with me. I think you are paranoid bonkers, creating faults and problems which don’t exist.

[Georgy Porgy]

My advice is as follows:

- stop blaming others for your own issues and decisions
- don’t get so easily upset by words
- stop using the sauce to cope
- stop worshipping one man to the extent of losing your sanity or turning to the sauce. Rather just leave the path, just leave it for good and don’t look back, don’t throw stones or kick up any fuss.

The difference between you and me is that you actually appear to take what the guru says as ‘life and death’ important. I doubt v much that I’d ever do that for any individual - it’s that level of skepticism which stops me from joining. In some ways I think you are far luckier than I am, as you potentially have salvation at hand - whereas I am too much of a stubborn fool.

But bottomline you are your own individual with your own grey matter upstairs. By all means listen to the advice of others, but then decide what is good advice for yourself and what is not. Good doesn’t mean someone who butters you up, far from it. Ive found the best advisors and teachers often come in a surly ill-mannered form that you don’t expect. Or to put it in the lingo of Bro Spence:
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”

In short, choose who you want to take advice from, get pissed, drop acid, do whatever the hell else takes takes your fancy, but don’t blame anyone else or create faults in others to compensate for your own situation or decisions. I’ve no doubt everyone experiences setbacks in life but these could also turn out to be advantages (as your Chinese parable explains). The difference presumably is that the more enlightened/wize individual treats ‘good’ and ‘bad’ with equanimity and doesn’t blame others or fall off the wagon when such events occur. I’m not that wize individual either.

It’s all a cosmic joke anyway, we are here for a mere eye-blink of time and won’t be remembered one way or the other. Do exactly what pleases yourself, but don’t blame others who might actually have your best interests at heart.

[Arjuna]

@ sonia

Technically a master is faultless. It is you and I who are being dragged by our karma. I think GSD helped you.more than you can imagine.

Everything happens for a reason we dont know what we have done in previous lives and science cant answer that lol. Sorry I dont trust science . What's dark matter? Exactly no one knows lol.

[Georgy Porgy]

Seems to me the parable your hubby sent to you is very apt.

Thing is if the guru upsets you to such a point that it’s damaging you, then I’d say walk away immediately on the spot and don’t look book. But if what he’s saying resonates with you cos you know it’s probably true deepdown, and you are just angry with him for saying it, or how he said it, then you are simply being a rebel (and fool) without a cause - cos you’ve just been given the best advice that anyone will maybe ever give you. Ain’t the first rule in AA about acknowledgement?

Doesn’t sound to me like you are an alcoholic. And for what it’s worth I think some of the nicest and best people in life are alcoholics or prone to some addiction, it becomes a coping mechanism, but I’ve got no doubt that it will destroy their lives. I see it with my mother’s oldest friend who is a wonderful woman, but just so pissed off with life. She may have good reason for it, but alcohol won’t help, will make it far far worse. I’d say you might’ve already been given one of the best coping mechanisms already by joining RS (tho I think it’s main benefit is spiritual not psychological), but if it’s the guru who is upsetting you to the point of drink or medication - then I say leave instantly on the spot and never look back - and I suspect he’d say the same to you. The whole point of RS is to alleviate suffering, not to add to it and it seem to me that is why it’s against achohol etc. But don’t blame him if he’s simply giving you the unvarnished truth. Just go. Go hold hands in AA or kissy-kissy support with ACiM club and see if that helps.

Personally I think we take it all too seriously. Take charge of your life if you want to see change or don’t (up to you) - but zero point blaming others imo.

[Sonia]

Yep. Thanks. Bye.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Sonia
You wrote
"I guess it doesn’t matter what you do, sooner or later it all catches up with you. In this life or the next. Clearly I did something really wrong in a past life. It’s haunting me. That’s payment enough."

Why are you stuck on Karma theory? You can believe it if you like, but this usage, to keep yourself imprisoned, to feel responsible for every bad thing that happens to you, to make yourself guilty for every crappy detail in your life, and special for every smile Gurinder sends your way, is precisely what is wrong with the caste system, and every formal religion and the shitty corrupt culture that has encased and suffocated everything noble that was once in those teachings.

You perpetuate your own enslavement thinking this way.

1. Shit happens. It has nothing to do with you. It happened. Here you are. Gurinder is an ink blot. He is just a tiny little blip in a turban one hundred rows in front of you on a stage. He's a puppet. A punch and judy puppet show, but he does the punching and every questioner is the poor judy standing with their question waiting to be wacked. And then, incredulously, like a good field slave, saying "Thank you Massa fo da beatin'."

Your protest has more integrity in it. If Gurinder protests his situation, you should too!

If he complains about Satsangis, then you should complain about the Master. It's Saint Sonia Time, baby!

Shout out truth to power until you feel better. It's very healthy.

But this 'it must be my Karma' bull shit will drive anyone crazy, and cut their capacity to really live and love in half. Don't ever go there again, Saint Sonia!!

[Spence Tepper]

OK Sonia
Let me explain something to you about Karma. It isn't based on actions, but on impressions of the mind. The false caste slave mentality says that if you were once a slave, then you will come back to be a master.

That's not how it works. If you are in love with being a master you will come to that. But if you were tortured as a slave, and that trauma is the impression, then you will come back to being another slave.

Think about that. It means that the person who enslaves you doesn't deserve it. It just means they are in the job they are most conditioned to, as an experienced evil slave master, and you are in the job you are most conditioned to, as an experienced slave. Get it?

So use your brain and stop being a slave. Fight the old conditioning.

When you feel that no one has the right to be harsh with you, especially when you have done nothing to them, then you are actually burning up the old Karma.

Oh, BTW Georgy, didn't mean to interrupt your sermonizing for RSSB. Carry on...

[Georgy Porgy]

Sure. Cheers. You keep asking for it.

[Sonia]

Spence,

😂😂😂

I agree with you. I don’t always post things for the benefit of those who actively comment on this blog. If I did, I would explain myself a little better. It’s just a thing with me—like thinking out loud. I do it on twitter and IG sometimes too. Usually just a blurb to get something out into the ethos. It’s like talking to the Great Cosmic Therapist. They don’t answer but you feel better just putting it out there.

Of course, if I address you directly, then yeah, I’m talking to you. 😉

Thanks, though. And I’m on the same page. My comments about “past life...” weren’t coming from a place of victimhood but from a place of revelation and freedom. Something I didn’t feel the need to expand upon.

But we all see through the color of our own lenses.

[Sonia]

@Spence,

You wrote:
“OK Sonia
Let me explain something to you about Karma. It isn't based on actions, but on impressions of the mind. The false caste slave mentality says that if you were once a slave, then you will come back to be a master.”

You are absolutely right! I’ve had that thought before but never heard anyone articulate it (even virtually). Makes even more sense seeing it in writing.

[Sonia]

Georgy,

I’m known for beating a dead horse. Won’t beat one while it’s alive but after it’s dead, sure...

Just gonna say, every time you call me paranoid bonkers then imagine me telling you you’re hypersensitive. That way I won’t have to type it out. And I believe that beneath your gruff exterior you are very sensitive. Your gruff. I’m whiny. You’re sensitive. I’m a bitch.

I hope we’re both on the same page now.

(This is where I would normally insert my Batman bitchslap gif). I’m a huge fan of gifs—just can’t insert them here.

Anyway... I’m not mad. I’m giving you a hard time too. :)

[Sonia]

@Arjuna

You are absolutely correct. My 12 year old trans niece/nephew (not down with the correct pronouns just yet) did a card reading for me today. She’s using her new Angel Cards and alter that she set up in her room. I bought her a Buddha statue for it and sage, incense, crystals and reiki infused candles. 😂 I’m really trying to respect her search to “find herself and her own truth”. Her home life with her mom and her mom’s multiple boyfriends is really wack. We sort of co-parent. She’s here with us every weekend and every school break in the fall, winter, spring and summer.

Anyway, I almost forgot what my point was... but what I wanted to say is that the reading basically summarized exactly what you said.

Last night we all went to see Little Women. It was really good. I love stories, and stories of writers, and books, and bookstores and libraries. I’ve had this bizarre habit of collecting notebooks and pens. I’m not a collector but my entire life I’ve collected notebooks that mostly remain blank. Sad.

I think Brian is a really good writer for a lot of different reasons and that’s why I like this blog—not just because it mentions RSSB often.

Well, I hope you had a wonderful New Years celebration and are doing well. BTW, do you live in India?

[Sonia]

@Arjuna
Can you get Netflix in India?

[Sonia]

@Georgy

“ but if it’s the guru who is upsetting you to the point of drink or medication - then I say leave instantly on the spot and never look back - and I suspect he’d say the same to you.”

Really?? Would he?? OK. I’ll take your advice and his and go. Of course, we’ll see how highly you think of him when he’s sharing a jail cell with Shiv and the truth comes out. People like you and him belong together.

[Sonia]

Yep. Plot twist. 😠

[Dungeness]

@ you might’ve already been given one of the best coping mechanisms already by
@ joining RS (tho I think it’s main benefit is spiritual not psychological), but if it’s the
@ guru who is upsetting you to the point of drink or medication - then I say leave
@ instantly on the spot and never look back - and I suspect he’d say the same to
@ you. The whole point of RS is to alleviate suffering,

I agree . But, before leaving, I'd blast the guru in a private internal chat.
(No, not an online chat either, hit directly in the third eye).

It feels good. It's therapeutic. If you're gonna "sin" against the holy one,
might as well be to his face. Sometimes you'll find yourself laughing in
the middle of it. Now that's what I'd call a really good tirade.

[Sonia]

And another thing, Georgy, you’re not allowed to speak for Gurinder or RSSB if you choose to continue to drink and have never been initiated. You have no personal experience so it’s just absolute hypocrisy. Try getting initiated. Or is it you don’t want to give up drinking and eating meat and sleeping around??

[Sonia]

I agree . But, before leaving, I'd blast the guru in a private internal chat.
(No, not an online chat either, hit directly in the third eye).

It feels good. It's therapeutic. If you're gonna "sin" against the holy one,
might as well be to his face. Sometimes you'll find yourself laughing in
the middle of it. Now that's what I'd call a really good tirade.

Posted by: Dungeness | January 04, 2020 at 05:01 PM

That’s excellent advice! 😄

[Sonia]

@Dungeness

Actually I’m going to to Dera for April session with my husband (if Gurinder isn’t in jail).

I’m not dumb enough to ask a question—maybe I’ll just stare at him when he’s scanning the crowd. Give him the stink eye. LOL. Just kidding. I won’t do that. I’m just there to get gulaab jamun, jalebis and chai at the snack bars and go for long walks with my husband when he isn’t at Satsang. I might attend an evening Satsang or two. But won’t put myself in an uncomfortable situation.

I better take a lot of books...

If my husband and his family weren’t Satsangis this would be such a non issue. But it is what it is.

[Dungeness]

@ I’m just there to get gulaab jamun, jalebis and chai at the snack bars and
@ go for long walks with my husband when he isn’t at Satsang. I might attend
@ an evening Satsang or two.

I heard that sweet shack was torn down decades ago
but watch the sugar. It's deadly addictive. Stick with
long walks. Oops, I'm giving advice I don't follow.

[Sonia]

Well, I’ll have to give GSD some credit—the Dera is phenomenally clean, has tons of wonderful walking paths and he must appreciate sweets because they now have snack shops all over the Dera. And the food outside of Hostel 6 is really good—you just have to pay for it. But the cost is like 50 cents for a meal. My husband prefers to eat outside of Hostel 6 whenever possible. He really loves it there. But then again, he loved the structure and orderliness of boarding school and the military. He’d make a good guru. 😁💕

[Sonia]

of course I’m kidding about him being a guru (although we do call him the unsolicited advice giving tree). For as long as I’ve known him he’s always wanted to build and run a shelter for homeless men and help them reintegrate into society or at the very least have a safe, clean place to stay.

[Sonia]

@Georgy,

OK, now I feel terrible. I really didn’t mean to be so mean. 😐

[Arjuna]

Hey sonia

I had a shit new years. But thanks for asking. Hope yours was better .

I am in the uk - was born here and served the country . Now I'm just a lazy citizen. Ha

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Sonia your lucky to be married to a man like your husband. Take me to
The Dera with you. 🙏
My situation is the opposite of yours my husband is like you and it’s hard when the husband is the opposer of the path.

[Sonia]

Hi Jen,

I’ll answer this on open thread 27. :)