Wow. Big news regarding the Singh brothers/Dhillon family financial scandal drama.
After being ordered by the High Court of Delhi to appear before it on November 14, along with other parties involved in what appears to be fraudulent transfers of funds that now prevent the Singh brothers from having enough money to pay an award related to their sale of a pharmaceutical firm, the family of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, has made up some marvelously unbelievable excuses for not being able to make the court hearing.
This is more evidence that Dhillon and his family have done something wrong.
Innocent people welcome the opportunity to tell their side of a story in court. Guilty people don't. Hopefully the court will look at the Dhillon family excuses with a highly skeptical eye, because those excuses make very little sense.
Here's two stories from the Indian financial press about this development. This is a Business Today story.
Download Daiichi case: 6 days to deadline RSSB chief Dhillon & family back off from court appearance
Six days before their scheduled hearing in the Delhi High Court in the Daiichi Sankyo case, the Gurinder Singh Dhillon family has backed off from personal appearance in court citing reasons ranging from "surgeries" abroad to "satsang commitments".
The court had asked RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family members, former Religare promoters Shivinder Singh and Malvinder Singh, former Religare chief Sunil Godhwani and his brother Sanjay Godhwani to be present at the court hearing on November 14. They were also asked to come up with all the required documents relating to the dealings.
While Gurinder Singh Dhillon said he had "satsang commitments" outside Delhi on the hearing day, his wife Shabnam Dhillon cited a scheduled gastric surgery at a UK hospital on November 20, saying she needed to travel to the country on November 12.
Indicating his inability to be present in court, Gurinder Singh also said he's "senior citizen, diabetic and cancer patient". Dhillon's son Gurkeerat said he had to accompany his mother to the UK for the treatment. His elder son Gurpreet said he's in Singapore. Dhillon's daughter-in-law Nayan Tara Dhillon cited her four-year-old son's hip implant treatment for her inability to be present in the court.
Interestingly, RSSB's Satsang schedule on its website shows no Satsang has been planned on November 14. The Rudrapur Satsang, which begins on November 12, ends on November 13. The question now is whether there are already any lookout notices against the Dhillon family and other 55 garnishees. And whether the court would prevent any of them from travelling abroad -- fearing escape.
Daiichi had earlier enforced an arbitration order in Singapore that ordered the brothers to pay Daiichi $500 million towards alleged non-disclosure of crucial information during the sale of Ranbaxy Laboratories to Daiichi in 2008. Expanding the scope of people from whom the money could be recovered, the court in June had named 56 entities, including Dhillon, his wife Shabnam Dhillon and other family members, and Godhwanis, and ordered them to pay up Rs 6,373 crore worth of dues to Singh brothers so that they could honour the $500 million order to pay Daiichi.
On March 12, BusinessToday.In reported that Singh brothers could only pay the $500 million order against them to compensate Daiichi, provided the money owed to them by RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family was recovered. In his submission, Malvinder had maintained that he could pay Daiichi provided he recovered the money owed to him.
Besides the Dhillon family, the Delhi HC had also issued 'garnishee orders' -- an order that's issued against a third party to recover money to settle a debt or dues -- against 55 entities, including Dhillon and RSSB associates' companies, including Prius Real Estate, Addon Realty, Payne Realtors SGGD Projects, Luminous Holding.
BusinessToday.In had also reported the flow of money that went from Singh brothers to entities owned and controlled by Gurinder Singh Dhillon, his family and RSSB associates. RoC filings and terms sheets had revealed that between 2011 and 2014, Rs 1,107.5 crore from the Rs 9,576 crore sale proceeds of Ranbaxy to Daiichi Sankyo was paid through various RHC group firms. Thereafter, this money was transferred to Prius Real Estate Private Limited controlled by Dhillon family associates and RSSB functionaries through optionally convertible debentures (OCD).
And here's an Economic Times story.
Radha Soami Satsang chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon along with his family members have cited various reasons seeking exemption from appearing before the Delhi High court on November 14.
The Dhillons in their Interim applications (IAs) filed before the court expressed their inability to appear before the court on the next date of hearing. While RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon has said that he has satsang commitments outside Delhi on that date and also he is a senior citizen, diabetic and cancer patient, hence he will be unable to appear before the court.
His wife, Shabnam Dhillon has said that she cannot appear due to a scheduled surgery in a hospital in UK on November 20 for which she needs to travel on November 12. Their son Gurkirat has said that he has to accompany his mother for the treatment.
While their second son Gurpreet Dhillon has expressed that he is in Singapore and has “critical work commitments” and is required to be personally present. His wife Nayan Tara on the other hand said that she cannot appear due to her four year old son’s medical condition, which needs "continuous care and attention”.
The court had in October ordered Dhillon along with his wife Shabnam, sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet and daughter in law Nayan Tara to personally present in the court on November 14, after Dhillon and his family members had said that they did not owe any money to RHC Holding Pvt Ltd, promoted by Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, following the court’s direction to deposit the amount owed to RHC holdings pvt Ltd in connection with the execution of Rs 3500 crore arbitration award won by Japanese form Daiichi Sankyo against former RanbaxyNSE 5.63 % promoters.
In his plea Dhillon had told the court that RHC Holding has made false claims and they did not owe any money to RHC Holdings Pvt Ltd. The court in its order then asked the Dhillons to “remain present in the court with relevant documents related to their dealings and transactions with the garnishees and their related companies.
The Dhillons are among 55 individuals and entities ordered by the court to pay over Rs 6000 crore owed to RHC holding in connection with the settlement of a dispute to Daiichi Sankyo’s acquisition of Ranbaxy laboratories.
The court while hearing the applications on Friday asked the garnishees to furnish their documents before the court. The requirement to appear before the court still looms as the court will take up the matter on November 14.
Justice JR Midha in his earlier order had also stated that these entities cannot “dispose of, alienate, encumber directly or indirectly, part with the possession of any assets, except in the ordinary course of business like payment of salary and statutory dues, till the next date of hearing.”
According to an affidavit filed by RHC Holding in April, entities including those controlled by the RSSB chief, his family and close associates, owed over Rs 6,000 crore to the company and other group entities of the Singh brothers. Malvinder Singh, one of the directors of RHC, had maintained that payment of an arbitration award related to Daiichi Sankyo’s acquisition of Ranbaxy could be made only if the money owed was recovered.
Leave a comment on this post if you want to share your opinion about the Dhillon family excuses for not being able to come to the November 14 court hearing. These are my takes on the excuses.
Gurinder Singh Dhillon. RSSB satsang schedule shows no meetings on the 14th. And somehow the senior citizen guru can travel all over the world giving talks to RSSB devotees, but is unable to go to a court appearance in Delhi. Highly unbelievable.
Shabnam Dhillon. The guru's wife just realizes she has surgery scheduled for November 20 in the UK that she has to leave eight days early for. Must take days to check into the clinic or hospital. Highly unbelievable.
Gurpreet Dhillon. The guru's son has "critical work commitments." However, the November 14 court appearance has been scheduled for quite a while, over a month I recall. Somehow Gurpreet can't do his critical work either before or after the 14th? Highly unbelievable.
Naya Tara Dhillon. I accept that her child has a medical condition. But I can't believe that a wealthy Indian family can't find anyone to care for the child during the short time needed to attend a court hearing. Highly unbelievable.
UPDATE: A commenter sent a link to a Times of India story that appeared in a newsreader. I wasn't able to find the story on the Times of India web site, but here's screenshots of the link. Looks like Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family don't have to attend the November 14 hearing, though they have to provide documents and be available by phone.
@Um If something takes a toll on you you should eschew it. Nice philosophy there, bet it's gotten you far.
Posted by: PJ | November 10, 2019 at 12:44 PM
Outer Sant Mat must eventually come to an end, if not sooner then little later. No path can continue forever under spiritual guardianship, every religion is born through initiative by true teachers and then encrusted into dogma by following generations removed from direct association with original teaching. RSSB and sant mat as known today most likely to follow same course of events.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 10, 2019 at 12:46 PM
@Arjuna lol good point. Our NHS is not just the envy of the world, it is the servicer also.
@Gumshuda I believe him because I believe in the meditation.
I just don't believe the master part, in the sense that if he did the same practise while believing in Yeshua he would have seen him inside.
Posted by: PJ | November 10, 2019 at 12:50 PM
Hi Brian Ji
You've provided an excellent reminder of your original excellent blog.
The potential for these puzzle pieces to fit together a little differently, maybe a little better, and creating a somewhat different picture arises in a couple of potential disconnects in the narrative you provide, which is basically Malvinder's accusation...
"...Shivinder agrees to sign a "family settlement" that absolves Gurinder Singh Dhillon of wrongdoing or criminality. But Malvinder has objections to this, as detailed in some emails included in an appendix to the complaint. Again, Malvinder alleges that his brother, Shivinder, agreed to this "in his greed to become the next spiritual head of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas."
But, if we take the May 2018 letter from Gurinder which Malvinder submitted as evidence, this version above doesn't fit perfectly.
The infamous death threat came five years after the 2013 verbal agreement. For five years Malvinder was in receipt of properties given by Gurinder based on a verbal agreement Malvinder never signed. But he kept the properties and did whatever with them.
For Gurinder to wait for five years demonstrates a degree of patience which is not supported by a death threat (not to say Gurinder might have lost his patience after five years of Malvinder owning and screwing with properties signed over by Gurinder years earlier for what was promised as a sweet real estate deal, or simply investment vehicles Baba Ji offered up to help shelter the Ranbaxy sale from income tax by finding suitable investments.)
Let's look at Gurinder's letter again.
" May 27, 2018
" Dear Malav and Shivi
"We had sent you a document to be signed subject to the family settlement which was verbally decided first in 2013 when I was detected with cancer and then reiterated in 2016. For reasons known to you, the settlement is not getting signed, nor the liabilities taken care of, which leads me to believe you are not interested in the Settlement. The amicable way forward is then to reverse all the decorative and to revert all the properties back to us with a list of all the liabilities and we can work to settle the accounts.
"G. S. Dhillon"
What does this tell us?
1. Properties were legally transferred to Malvinder based on nothing more than Malvinder 's personal promises, which Malvinder never formally signed. But Malvinder ran up even more debt using these properties.
Subsequently, in July 2018 Malvinder then pleads in a letter to Baba ji to pay those debtors directly, ignoring Baba Ji's request to turn over the properties first.
Take a look again at Baba Ji's letter, written before Malvinder's.
Baba Ji has already offered to take the entire burden of liabilities.
Why does Malvinder plead for him to do just that in his July letter?
Malvinder makes no reference to the properties he took from Gurinder except to say that he will liquidate some assets but Baba Ji has to pay the rest.
Baba Ji had already offered to take on the entire burden! All the debts.
But the cost would be signing over the assets, and this Malvinder will not do. He assures Baba Ji in his letter that he will use those assets to pay some of the bills, but Baba Ji must pay the rest.
In context it makes no sense. Unless there is much more debt or Malvinder has liens on the properties or the bills will show he siphoned monies, etc which he doesn't want Baba Ji to know about.
Because Baba Ji offered to settle all the debts, all the liabilities, if Malvinder will sign back the original properties over to him.
Further, in subsequent letters Malvinder registers shock to discover that the shell companies have funneled unsecured loans back to Baba Ji. Now the context is that Malvinder has already funneled unsecured loans to the shell companies! He helped set them up for this purpose! And he claims to be shocked at discovering this has happened!
But this is because, as his letters to Rajveer detail, he has ordered the loans returned, and now protests that the shell companies are asking everyone except Gurinder to repay the loans.
But did Gurinder ever actually receive them?
It doesn't make sense to go after Gurinder for loans Malvinder helped siphon or fabricate, when Gurinder had already offered to take on all of Malvinder's liabilities in exchange for signing the properties back over.
That's the thread, I believe, that will help investigators unravel the truth of this fraud.
And of course we'll here more information on November 14th.
Brian Ji, it really could go either way. More information can change this picture entirely. It might not be a or b, but c or d.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 10, 2019 at 01:05 PM
Oops typo
"The amicable way forward is then to reverse all the decorative..."
Should read
"The amicable way forward is then to reverse all the decisions..."
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 10, 2019 at 01:11 PM
How are you supposed to contemplate or meditate on Yeshua when he's dead over 2000 years and you don't have an inkling about who he is or how to recognize him? You wouldn't have a clue about who he is, you'd never know him from Adam.
May as well meditate on Genghis Khan or Zeus.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 10, 2019 at 01:24 PM
@PJ
If one has an intellectual and/or emotional allergy the like of hay fever, there are two ways to adres the problem, Stay away from the "pollen" and see what can in terms of desensitization.
That what is outside can never be controlled the only help must come from inside.
Victor Frankl, used it to "survive" the camps in Germany and wrote a book on the topic.
Posted by: Um | November 10, 2019 at 01:37 PM
Hi Anon
I asked him. I demanded more information before continuing my role here. It was sickening me.
But I could be wrong....
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 10, 2019 at 09:46 AM
Sorry I don’t understand. You mean asked the inner master?
I don’t think Brian is happy with you leaving him high and dry.
Posted by: Anon | November 10, 2019 at 01:41 PM
Brian before you base your evidence on the testimony of one person (in this case Malvinder) it would be good to educate yourself on that person’s character.
Posted by: Nancy | November 10, 2019 at 01:56 PM
@Um -Anything that can shake the believes of Indians.
No. State will not allow it.
There is even a "Freezer Baba" in Nurmahal -Punjab,Ashutosh came penniless from bihar and was spotted as a potential Baba by politicians who set up a Dera for him.Soon he was followed by millions and loadsa money.He died in 2014 but his followers believe he has gone in samadhi mode and will return so they put his body in deep-freeze and refuse to cremate him.Police went to court and obtained a cremation order .The followers appealed on the basis that it was written in black and white that saints lived in samadhi for thousands years and then they got up to save the world. The followers won the appeal.The followers now que to pray to freezer and chant "ashu baba ayenge". They are sure that one day ashutosh will wake up.
Posted by: Amli Lana | November 10, 2019 at 02:54 PM
@Amli Lana
Gave a quick look at this guru and saw the behaviour of the followers.
Some decades ago I had no idea that guru-dom and dera's was such a wide spread fenomena in India. Overtime I learned that it is an expression of an Indian "need".
I also start to realize that I am not an Indian and drifting away for that same reason from something I enjoyed very much.
In literature it is said that India is the only place where saints can be born and do their work as the people know how to appreciate it.
They say that mystisism will shift from the east to the west …. but YouTube makes me realise that it is impossible.
For a while I thought that an universal religion was possible, given the idea that we are all the same naturaly but now I doubt it the impact of regional culture is so imense that it cannot be bypassed.
But …. the power of their faith, certainly when they chant their Bhajans is impressive.
Posted by: um | November 10, 2019 at 04:37 PM
Nobody said that malvinder is innocent. Even he himself does not claim he did no wrong.
But it does not mean only one person is guilty. So if malvinder is guilty, then the baba is not. That is not right.
The baba was in on it, and is part of the fraud, and he owes him money. The baba is bigger fraud
Posted by: RSSB is finished | November 10, 2019 at 04:51 PM
You know news events about the guru are truly bad by how the Sangat reacts to them here.
I'm searching through my copy of Tales of the Mystic East, but I can't find any stories in it about Sikh gurus who borrowed millions of dollars, refused to pay it back, and then had their lawyers cook up Junior Soprano style excuses for the guru's failure to appear in court.
But maybe Gurinder, a latter day Amar Das, is doing it all to "test" us.
Posted by: j | November 10, 2019 at 05:09 PM
Hi Anon:
You wrote:
"I don’t think Brian is happy with you leaving him high and dry."
Actually I think the opposite is true. I think Brian Ji appreciates every effort to look at both sides, and to see if the pieces of the puzzle can reasonably be put together in a different way, looking at some of those pieces more closely. It's a great exercise.
There is no actual win and lose when people are sincere about finding the truth. It may hurt, or it may feel good. Facts can confirm our beliefs, or they may, properly understood, disconfirm them.
In fact I would say that Brian Ji heralds "aha" moments. He wants all of us to reconsider what we held as truth. I'm following his lead.
Truth is generally new when we discover it.
I'm not sure what really transpired. I was inspired by an idea I think may prove truthful. But it may not, or some third, as yet unknown truth may emerge.
I did write a more detailed review of Malvinder's complaint, but it hasn't come through the spam filter yet...it often takes several hours.
I was very sympathetic with Malvinder, and still am, but now it seems he may have a larger responsibility here for presenting facts but in a light and with a context that may not be true at all.
We will see.
What is clear upon re-reading Gurinder's letter to Malvinder last year, is that Gurinder did in fact offer to take the whole mess on his own shoulders, including all the liabilities, accepting the fact that Malvinder was not going to take written responsibility for the financial mess.
But, for Malvinder's own reasons, he wouldn't even accept that much. It would require him to give up what he was given, but give to Gurinder all the financial liabilities. Who wouldn't take that kind of an offer?
It appears he was saying "I'm not giving anything back, you'll have to trust me to handle these things properly, but you still need to bail me out also." I'm not sure how fair that is now, in retrospect.
Posted by: spence tepper | November 10, 2019 at 05:17 PM
"What an amazing story about law enforcement originating from the land where apparently corruption reigns. "
The citizenry can be corrupt, too, Steve. Also, you're talking about an anecdote. A single anecdote within a cluster of anecdotes, including one that states the Guru was allowed to evade arrest more than 40 times. Something which would not be possible in places not suffering from severe corruption.
Severe corruption which is so severe that the Prime Minister routinely talks about it, and the citizens of the country are so fed up with that they leave literally by the millions.
Yes, it is very possible that everything happening in this case involving Gurinder is on the up and up, and that nobody is receiving payouts to offer favorable verdicts. It's possible that all involved are 100% innocent, as well. But to deny the possibility of corruption playing a role in this case,which it seems you are sarcastically implying, is absolutely idiotic.
Posted by: Jesse | November 10, 2019 at 05:39 PM
You can dig through all the minutia until the end of time, but the fact that you're pretending to talk to imaginary light beings inside your mind to determine their physical form's guilt or innocence basically makes you a non-reliable source.
It also, coincidentally, makes the guru look like a criminal even more. Who allows others to think of them this way other than psychopaths? I'd be hard pressed to think of anything more cultish and Machiavellian than telling others to "consult my inner light form when you suspect I might be going to jail."
Get a grip, y'all. You're quite literally losing your minds trying to make sense of this situation, when the better thing to do would be to question why you let yourself worship men.
Posted by: Jesse | November 10, 2019 at 05:55 PM
But to deny the possibility of corruption playing a role in this case,which it seems you are sarcastically implying, is absolutely idiotic.
Posted by: Jesse | November 10, 2019 at 05:39 PM
Do I need your guidance? LoL. Idiotic is the pea sized brain at work which gets amply reflected in your posts.
Posted by: Steve | November 10, 2019 at 05:56 PM
@Steve What is this OCD obsession with trying to combat 'hate'? Hating things that are hateful is normal and REQUIRED in order to survive.
For example, I hate others who think I shouldn't hate certain things/people that mean me harm.
Because I hate these people, I disregard their opinions and avoid said harm. Simple.
Posted by: PJ | November 10, 2019 at 07:13 AM
Amazing.
Ever heard the word AVOID
I hate others - things/people that mean me harm.
or
I avoid others - things/people that mean me harm.
Choice is yours!!!!!! Unless your PSB needs some guidance.
Posted by: Steve | November 10, 2019 at 06:05 PM
Steve,
1) it takes less than a minute to read all the new comments and reply.
2) Nobody forced you to worship a man who you've never met. Why get salty with me when it turns out that man isn't actually God, and that he has spent his entire life chasing money?
3) What do you think, Steve? Do you think Gurinder was just wrongly accused of spending his entire life in the grips of greed?
Posted by: Jesse | November 10, 2019 at 08:54 AM
1) The new message being always the latest post in here. How do you spend your day Jesse? Staring at the screen waiting for Brain to publish the next batch of messages? Or certainly toggle between this and other hate sites. Lovely
2) certainly nobody forced me. Nobody can. For me anybody for whom Money is God is worth worshipping. I love you Gurinder Singh Dhillon.
3) my thinking is limited to my self interest and which centres around $'s. Greed is good. Period.
My time is precious. Goodnight Jesse
Posted by: Steve | November 10, 2019 at 06:21 PM
Hi Anon
I asked him. I demanded more information before continuing my role here. It was sickening me.
But I could be wrong....
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 10, 2019 at 09:46 AM
Hey Spence,
Back to square one huh....the inner radient form of Him. Even though somebody has already called your bluff - That inner magnificent form you claim you supposedly see is a fake; what did this 'Him' tell you?
Infact even I asked His radiant form (who I meet within every day) about the financial saga. He told me to shut up. Kicking my butt he said next time I poke my nose in His affairs and matters that don't concern me, he might hang me by my nuts. LoL
Since then it's always some random small talk with Him over tea and scones served by the magnificent seven.
BTW I am Charan's initiate. Just like GSD and even you (right?).
Posted by: Nosey me | November 10, 2019 at 09:53 PM
Whodunit, how can you compare Christ to Gurinder? I have been a satsangi for nearly 60 years, I knew Charan Singh and I can assure you things were not the same then. Do you seriously believe that a Sant Sat Guru as defined by Sant Mat is not aware of what his disciples are up to? Are you telling me Gurinder had absolutely no idea what was going at Ranbaxy? If that were the case then according to the basic teachings of Sant Mat, Gurinder is not a Sant Sat Guru. In fact, Gurinder advised the sale of Ranmaxy to the Japanese firm Daiichi Sankyo. Links can be provided if you are in any doubt.
I don't know where people are getting their information from but Malvinder was the Chairman and CEO of Ranbaxy.
Quote from Wikipedia:
Malvinder Mohan Singh
Nationality
Indian
Occupation
Businessman
Known for
Chairman and CEO of Ranbaxy Laboratories
Malvinder Mohan Singh is a former businessman now under arrest for criminal breach of trust. He, along with his brother Shivinder Mohan Singh (also under arrest), has many cases of fraud registered against him. [1][2]
Singh is the former chairman and CEO of Ranbaxy Laboratories, an Indian pharmaceutical company that was sold to Japanese drugmaker Daiichi Sankyo. Singh resigned in 2009 after Ranbaxy posted losses.
Posted by: Maria de La Torre | November 10, 2019 at 11:04 PM
Let's just define what CEO stands for regarding Malvinder's involvement in Ranbaxy:
'CEO - A chief executive officer, the highest-ranking person in a company or other institution, ultimately responsible for taking managerial decisions.'
If people are happy to follow a Guru who ignores such dangerous fraud that endangers lives for the sake of making quick profits, how dare they accuse and criticise those who speak out against such corruption?
The basis of Sant Mat is truth. I would like to remind these people that Great Master categorically stated, "When an honest man meets a liar, their relationships snaps. ALWAYS speak the truth."
Posted by: Maria deLa Torre | November 10, 2019 at 11:16 PM
Nothing to do with lack of integrity and humility, Whodunit, quite the opposite. There is no interest to be gained in revealing corruption in high places other than remaining true to one's conscience. In fact, doing so attracts enemies.
If you seriously believe this whole sorry fraud involving putting patients lives at risk and letting small children suffer in agony due to inferior antibiotics is a "test" that an enlightened, compassionate Saint would subject his disciples to, then I really do question your level of intelligence, compassion and common sense.
Perhaps if you were a penniless AIDES victim in Africa and you were being left to die due to fake drugs just because some merciless crook in India wanted to make a big fat profit, you would be less blasé.
You are obviously not a parent. Do you have any idea how agonising middle ear infection is in small children? Do you have any idea what it's like to be a mother and listen to your child scream in agony? Inferior antibiotics do not relieve symptoms. That means the child not only continues to suffer, if infection is not treated it can lead to complications. You have not read the three links I posted earlier.
Am appalled at the total lack of compassion for helpless suffering patients and especially children due to greed based exploitation and fraud. No Saint would torture children and leave patients to die to "TEST" his disciples. Those who condone or excuse such despicable actions are not disciples of a Saint.
Your analogy was not only insensitive, it was totally inappropriate and incongruous.
Let's get one thing clear, a Sant Sat Guru according to the teachings of Sant Mat knows everything past, present and future about a disciple. Maharaj Charan Singh would never have excused the sexual abuse of children, fraud or putting patients lives at risk. Are you seriously telling people that Gurinder knew nothing about Ranbaxy or Malvinder's crimes? If so, then what is he doing on the podium giving satsang as Chief of RSSB? It's all very well claiming to be an ordinary person but why perform brain surgery if you are not a qualified neurosurgeon? Gurinder is appointed Sant Sat Guru of RSSB. if he is just an ordinary person then he is a fraud. 'Ordinary person' does not meet the qualifications of a Sant Sat Guru. There is something seriously amiss here and it doesn't require a rocket scientist to see the very obvious discrepancies.
Posted by: Maria de La Torre | November 11, 2019 at 03:11 AM
Maria and whodunit.
Parvinder Singh CEO of Ranbaxy sufferd from cancer and died in 1999.He appointed Davinder Singh Brar CEO in 1999 while he was alive. Malwinder and Shivnder were not even board of directors.Both Parvinder and Brar were medicine professionals.
India today article ,edition dated 12 January 2004,headed "Ranbaxy Labartories CEO D.S.Brar,s imminent departure worries corporate Watchers".
"The imminent departure of professionally appointed D.S.Brar has surprised all and worried some corporate watchers. What is the fate of India,s largest pharmaceutical Company ?."
This is time when GSD with the help of his Majithia-Badal alliance managed to get rid of CEO Brar.He left in July 2004.Malwinder was on board of directors from January 2004.CEO from July 2004.
None of the new rulers of Ranbaxy (GSD-Mal-Shiv- Maithia-Badal)had medicine backgronds.Majithia-Badal had Liqur and everything dodgy backgrounds and were pulling the strings of everybody.
Posted by: K.Singh | November 11, 2019 at 03:33 AM
Hi Nosey Me
Yes the inner form of Gurinder.
Long ago I accepted the fact that the brain creates symbolic imagery, and all the people we know have their models carefully constructed and reconstructed within us.
What is the difference between imagination, perception (which we only see after its reconstruction by the same mechanism we use for imagination) ? What makes it possible to see Gurinder in the flesh become Charan, and then Gurinder?
I can tell you that it doesn't require a belief in the supernatural.
It only requires a little humility and gratitude for the instrument we have been gifted with.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 11, 2019 at 06:11 AM
Not sure that critics and skeptics are motivated by hate. In some cases possibly; in most cases probably not.
What concerns people is that someone acting as a 'role model' for many is arguably not fulfilling that role well due to excess involvement with dubious business deals. Many critics and skeptics have family still actively involved with these teachings even if not involved anymore themselves. Integrity and honesty in a teacher of any kind is widely deemed important. When they are called into question then it is of concern.
Also at a time of accountability, why is it the rest of us have to answer for our faults/failures/transgressions and have to stand up either in courts/tribunals or family fall outs and yet this group of people make random ridiculous excuses?
Also the apologetic nonsense on offer from the faithful really shows how the rational faculty and intellect can be dumbed down so far it is bordering on tragic.
FYI I still feel amenable to some elements of RSSB though no longer believe and practice it. Standards, role models and other considerations are basic and fundamental; not one rule for one and one for another.
By the way Nick is my name and yes I live in the UK.
Posted by: Nick GB - UK | November 11, 2019 at 06:31 AM
Spence writes and has concluded that,...” What is the difference between imagination, perception (which we only see after its reconstruction by the same mechanism we use for imagination) ? What makes it possible to see Gurinder in the flesh become Charan, and then Gurinder?”
Jim Sutherland,..i.e. disagrees. Why? Because when Charan Singh came to me, during Meditation, after 26 years of being a No Show, it certain my was not my imagination, a brain fart, or reconstruct, because I had never once met him in person. But as I have shared here many times in the past, when he appeared, I was about 75-90 minutes in to my morning Meditation, and was not doing Simran or listening to Sound. I was where I usually end up at about 60 minutes in, which is where I consider is Samadhi, or the Void, or it could even be Nirvana, ( Temporary), where there are is no visuals. Sound, action, but ONLY AWARENESS OF,....”I” still exist. I had never been to the Dera, and had really accepted that I would never go there this life, before I die, and actually still had a completely unbiased opinion regarding Gurinder Singh. I had been having pains in my heart, and figured I might be close to buying the farm this life. But low and behold, out of no where, Charan Singh appeared in my Samadhi, in full body, dressed as usual, full beard and Turban, a foot away from me, to my right, and looked me in the eyes, and said,...” Brother, your body needs Aspirin.” That’s all he said. I was about age 73 -74 at that time, as I now remember, and I had taken one Baby Aspirin a day from age 60 to 70, but had quit at age 70 because it was making me bleed easily when bruised. I told Charan my story, and he listened patiently, with out interrupting me, then, put his hand on my right shoulder, and answered,...” Brother, just use less .” Before I could answer he vanished in a Puff, and disintegrated before my eyes. I restarted one Baby Aspirin a day the next day, and my heart pain went away, and I traveled to visit the Dera, and discovered the Cult that was presently hijacking the Dera, and knew immediately that the Holy Spirit was no longer present in that place, and I couldn’t wait to escape. I have also posted my full report so will not repeat it here. After taking all of the flack and rebuttals here, after my comments a report, and had the next 6 months to digest what I witnessed and , heard, and FELT, I concluded that Charan visited me to heal my heart pain, so I could visit the Dera before I died, this life, and see that he was no longer there, and the Dera had been hijacked by Rebels, and I would not need to reincarnate again to visit the Dera, because as he taught, we that were marked for Charan and were initiated by Him already carried our Deras in our hearts.
Jim Sutherland
Posted by: Jim Sutherland | November 11, 2019 at 09:07 AM
Spence, you're dangerously misusing your brain to justify Ouija board-tier superstition while pretending it's something normal and rational. Your defensiveness doesn't help either. If people doubt that the voices in your head are truly angels, let them doubt instead of debating their existence.
And if you don't consult my inner form, or Brian's or anyone else's, why are you doing so with random Punjabis? And please don't pretend like you do communicate with our souls.
We're talking about humans stealing money here, buddy. Not imaginary luminous turbans and beards. If you want to know Gurinders opinion, write him a letter. It's almost guaranteed he won't respond.
Posted by: Jesse | November 11, 2019 at 09:10 AM
Yip those seem like perfectly acceptable excuses to me. What difference does it make if they attend court or by phone?
The good guys will prevail, despite the teachery.
Posted by: Georgy Porgy | November 11, 2019 at 09:19 AM
Hi Jesse
I think you should listen to those inner voices, inner dreams, and even waking visions, and then decide for yourself if they have any street cred with you, any wisdom, any compassion . Learn to regard them as valid parts of yourself, which is a valid part of this creation speaking to you.
Because that's what's the computer you are working on, the home you live in, the car you drive, the medicines you take, even the food that is delivered to your table, and the clothes you wear come from, through mind.
Anytime someone takes the products of the mind, especially Jesse's rants, as fact, then I know they aren't functioning in the real world.
And anytime someone dismisses the gentle voice within them, the gentle hand taping them on the shoulder saying, "I think you should look at this again," I know they aren't functioning in the real world.
The symbols in your mind, Jesse, are no better than mine. Both are worthy of attention, but thoughtful consideration, and never blind faith or condemnation.
For a guy who complains about organized religion you are as versed in condemnation as any career inquisitioner in midieval Spain. Just our luck, you didn't get enough and here you are trying to eak out a few thousand last rants. But really, it can't be as satisfying as real torture to an old inqusitioner, can it? Ah, things have really declined in the last thousand years, haven't they?
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 11, 2019 at 11:03 AM
Shivinder Singh's petition against brother Malvinder and former Religare CEO Sunil Godhwani points at only the tip of the iceberg in the corporate mismanagement that led to the Singh brothers losing control of Fortis Healthcare and Religare.
From Shivinder's eyes: How Singh brothers lost control of Fortis and Religare
Former Ranbaxy promoter and founder of Fortis Healthcare Shivinder Singh's petition against brother Malvinder and former Religare CEO Sunil Godhwani provides an intriguing insight into the reasons Shivinder believes the family lost control of one of India's largest hospital chains Fortis Healthcare and one of India's largest NBFCs Religare Enterprises.
This, however, may be a limited view of L'affaire Singh brothers as the cycle of boom and bust at Fortis and Religare involved a lot more than just the two incidents Shivinder outlines.
The petition first deals with how the brothers lost control of Fortis Healthcare. Shivinder alleges that Malvinder abused his position as executive chairman of Fortis Healthcare and Religare Enterprises in 2016 and "caused the companies to extend loans in the form of Inter Corporate Deposits of Fortis" and then used his "position of control and influence with (RHC Holding) Respondent No. 1, obtained use of these funds for" RHC Holding.
In doing so, Malvinder allegedly used Rs 473 crore taken out from Fortis to pay creditors of RHC Holding. Malvinder has denied abuse of position saying he followed all procedures.
However, the petition says, "This payment had actually not helped RHC in any meaningful way and in fact has resulted in value loss to RHC far in excess of the amount of the outstanding ICDs as it leads to erosion of wealth of its subsidiary and led to resultant erosion" of RHC Holding.
More importantly, the money only pushed RHC holding further into debt trap and more financial trouble. Since these resources were taken from Fortis despite Malvinder being fully aware of Fortis's precarious financial position. As a result, Fortis, a listed company, also went into "a debt trap prejudicing the interest of its shareholders at large due". The petition says Shivinder first learned about the outstanding ICD (Inter Corporate Deposits) in October, 2016 and that he was neither involved in its conception nor its execution.
In the second instance of losing control over Religare Enterprises, the Shivinder petition says that Malvinder allegedly used his position as chairman of Religare Enterprises and caused its subsidiary Religare Finvest to create a fixed deposit of Rs 750 crore with Laxmi Vilas Bank on November 19, 2016. Against this FD, RHC Holding and its subsidiary Ramchem Private Limited were granted loans worth Rs 750 crore.
That, effectively eroded the capital of Religare Finvest while the loans taken by RHC and its subsidiary still remain outstanding. But that may be only part of the story. Once the proceeds of the Ranbaxy sale were received, Singh brothers paid nearly Rs 2,000 crore in taxes and previous loan repayments. Of the remaining Rs 7,500 crore, Rs 1,750 crore were invested in Religare to fund its growth; about Rs 2,230 crore was invested in Fortis' growth. Religare and Fortis went on a rapid-fire expansion and acquisition spree.
Once slowdown hit, Religare and Fortis were unable to service the massive debt raised during the expansion spree. Though several businesses were losing money, the biggest drain on Religare were subsidiaries Religare Capital Markets and Ligare Aviation; the latter was run by Godhwani's brother Sanjay Godhwani. Ligare reported net losses of Rs 590 crore between 2008 and 2014, the last reported results. The debt on Ligare's balance sheet shot up from Rs 3.85 crore in 2007 to Rs 730 crore in 2010. The other drain, Religare Capital Markets, reported losses worth Rs 1,628 crore between 2011 and 2016 (the last reported). Lending arm Religare Finvest also reported a net loss of Rs 350 crore in 2016/17 while its debt shot up from Rs 1,695 crore in 2008 to Rs 17,218 crore in 2016. During 2008/18, for the 10 Fortis subsidiaries and eight Religare subsidiaries whose data has been filed with RoC, Religare subsidiaries reported losses worth Rs 2,047 crore and Fortis subsidiaries Rs 650 crore.
At the consolidated level, the company went into the red soon after. From a net profit of Rs 92 crore in 2008, it reported net losses of Rs 295 crore, Rs 149 crore and Rs 481 crore between 2010/11 and 2012/13. This was followed by three years of profits and then another Rs 123 crore loss in 2016/17.
On the other hand, Fortis went into a phase of reckless global expansion across Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, Vietnam and Dubai funded entirely through acquisitions of over $1 billion. Malvinder himself moved to Singapore to manage international operations. In 2010, Singhs even got into a takeover battle for Singapore's Parkway vis-a-vis Malaysia's sovereign fund Khazanah. The Singhs finally had to pull out and sell their stake in Parkway also to Khazanah. That was also the beginning of flipping the international acquisition and expansion strategy to focus entirely on the Indian market starting 2012-13.
By 2012/13, Fortis had gone ahead of Apollo Hospitals as India's largest hospital chain by revenue (though Apollo reclaimed its top rank right after). Since then, it has reported losses of Rs 34 crore, Rs 40 crore and Rs 75 crore in the following three years. A big reason why Fortis is in the red is the nearly Rs 270 crore licence fee it pays to the RHT Trust in Singapore. RHT owns 12 of Fortis' clinical establishments and two hospitals (Delhi and Gurgaon).
Shivinder says that inability to repay these loans resulted in the family losing control of Fortis and Religare. The first major invocation of their shareholding happened in July 2017 when RHC and its subsidiaries defaulted in payment to First Gulf Bank and the shares were invoked. The very next month, the second lot of shares were invoked in August by Indiabulls. After Supreme Court ordered maintaining status quo on Fortis sale, the third lot was invoked on August 31, 2017. And finally the fourth lot was invoked right after the SC order. "This led to a further massive value loss for RHC and Petitioner No. 2 (Shivinder)," says the petition.
'We tried to make music, but only created noise,' Shivinder Singh says in emotional letter to Malvinder
Posted by: Whodunit | November 11, 2019 at 11:03 AM
Hi Nosey Me
You wrote
"Infact even I asked His radiant form (who I meet within every day) about the financial saga. He told me to shut up. Kicking my butt he said next time I poke my nose in His affairs and matters that don't concern me, he might hang me by my nuts. LoL"
Yes my inner Gurinder is a little different. There are no secrets there. And when I arrive and ask, he says gently, "me casa, su casa."
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 11, 2019 at 11:10 AM
Ranbaxy was started by Ranbir Singh and Gurbax Singh in 1937 as a distributor for Japanese company Shionogi. The name Ranbaxy is a portmanteau of the names of its founders: Ranbir and Gurbax. Bhai Mohan Singh bought the company in 1952 from his cousins Ranbir and Gurbax. After Bhai Mohan Singh's son Parvinder Singh joined the company in 1967, the company saw an increase in scale.
In the late 1990s, Ranbaxy formed a US company, Ranbaxy Pharmaceuticals Inc., in order to support its entry into the pharmaceutical market in United States
Posted by: Whodunit | November 11, 2019 at 11:14 AM
Yeah ok Spencer. If you write all wannabe poetic, then it makes a lot more sense to consult imaginary men in your mind and ascribe to them divine powers. Burp
Posted by: Jesse | November 11, 2019 at 11:36 AM
Maria de La Torre
"Whodunit, how can you compare Christ to Gurinder? I have been a satsangi for nearly 60 years, I knew Charan Singh and I can assure you things were not the same then. Do you seriously believe that a Sant Sat Guru as defined by Sant Mat is not aware of what his disciples are up to?"
Firstly Maria you infer that you have some kind of first hand knowledge and judgment of who Christ is / (or was), like you have met him in person and can judge his personality and character. Plus you intimate that in his capacity as a (Son of God) - 'perfect master' he would never, in your estimating, ever have enacted in similar fashion to how Gurinder has done in respect of his association with his two family members and cousins in a current situation of events as is playing out in the media and law courts of India here and now.
Secondly you do the same assessment and judgment of Gurinder Singh Dhillons personality and character as if you know him and his motives inside and out. Like you know his motivation intimately from a direct personal experience and association.
Thirdly you do likewise for Huzur Charan Singh who you claim that you 'knew him' (which I do not doubt to some extent you did) or that you know his direction and motivation for passing on his mantle of RSSB head and spiritual leadership to his nephew (sisters son) Gurinder Singh Dhillon.
(BTW like you, I am also disciple of Huzur Maharaj Charan Singh, and can't claim to know why he passed on the succession of RSSB responsibility and spiritual guidance to his nephew GSD, though unlike you I appreciate and trust his judgment.) and in fact I am very grateful and glad that he did.
Fourthly I am not sure if you really know what in fact is going on in the inner circle of the Singh and Dhillon family realignment of karma or settling of debts. No one here in this media frenzied apocalypse of contradiction can or does.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 11, 2019 at 12:06 PM
"and without the RSSB guru and his family complaining about it after numerous stories about money going to the Dhillons appeared in the Indian financial press."
Some of my thoughts on that:
1. It's not the Dhillon family M.O. to respond to anything the press says about them or RSSB. Ever.
2. It remains to be seen what "money going to the Dhillons" actually entails. Such as: if money went to the Dhillons, was it kept by the Dhillons or did they transfer the money back from whence it came?
3. Do we know if it's possible to set up these accounts without the participation of the named principles? Or did the principles participate in setting up the accounts, but money transfers were done outside of their knowledge?
There is still so much we don't know.
Posted by: j | November 11, 2019 at 12:26 PM
Hi Whodonit
You wrote
"The petition first deals with how the brothers lost control of Fortis Healthcare. Shivinder alleges that Malvinder abused his position as executive chairman of Fortis Healthcare and Religare Enterprises in 2016 and "caused the companies to extend loans in the form of Inter Corporate Deposits of Fortis" and then used his "position of control and influence with (RHC Holding) Respondent No. 1, obtained use of these funds for" RHC Holding."
The problem with Shivinder's account is that he accuses Malvinder of making unsecured loans from Fortis and RHC assets.
But according to Fortis' audit and the SEBI audits, many of the unsecured loans went to Best, Modland Wears and Fern, all shell companies that at the time listed Shivinder as the principal. And according to Business Today's audit these shell companies made their own unsecured loans to Gurinder at al.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 11, 2019 at 01:29 PM
Who listed Shivinder as the Primary principal of the shell companies?
Shivinder is saying he had no knowledge of most of the in house inter company dealing,
"The petition says Shivinder first learned about the outstanding ICD (Inter Corporate Deposits) in October, 2016 and that he was neither involved in its conception nor its execution."
When in the timeline of events was Shivinder out the loop of Religare and Fortis / RHC management? While he was doing in house sewa at Dera? Or while GSD was undergoing therapy for throat cancer in Singapore? 2016 or earlier? and until when did he return to the hotbed of the corporation in its disintegration phase?
During his absence Malvinder ostensibly had full control of management of the holding company and subsidiary shell companies, plus flows of funds, perhaps in associated assistance with Godhwani or perhaps flying solo, who knows? . Courts will most likely be able to find out.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 11, 2019 at 02:04 PM
Hi Whodonit
You write
"When in the timeline of events was Shivinder out the loop of Religare and Fortis / RHC management? While he was doing in house sewa at Dera? Or while GSD was undergoing therapy for throat cancer in Singapore? 2016 or earlier? and until when did he return to the hotbed of the corporation in its disintegration phase?"
The problem with this argument has to do with Shivinder's status as principle and interested party in these various interconnected firms. That is illegal. He would have had to have been entirely unaware of these roles, which normally require signature.
It's possible, but it is more likely this was a team fraud. Malvinder, who was not listed as a Principal in the above listed shell companies, would have had to have had control over them.
As you say, the courts will gather more evidence. But Shivinder's attorney will have to prove all these documents and loans with his name were forgeries. Again, anything could be. But the burden of proof becomes enormous should there be a clean trail of dozens if not hundreds of fraudulent loans with his name on them to companies he was a principal of, and then to Gurinder, deposited into accounts that listed Gurinder but weren't Gurinder.
Since the court is expedient, these documents, prima facie, are enough for criminal trial. I don't believe they will go to the trouble to dig deeper to establish forgery to this extent.
They will leave that up to all the defendents, including Gurinder et al, because a clean paper trail is enough cause for suit.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 11, 2019 at 02:55 PM
I have been a satsangi for nearly 60 years, I knew Charan Singh and I can assure you things were not the same then. Do you seriously believe that a Sant Sat Guru as defined by Sant Mat is not aware of what his disciples are up to?
Posted by: Maria de La Torre | November 10, 2019 at 11:04 PM
So Maria, before you get to Gurinder let's talk about your 'holier than GSD' guru : Hazur!
You claim you knew him. . Things were different then you try to lamely assure us.
So was Hazur a Sant Satguru? If yes, he too should have known not only what his disciples are upto but also the consequences of marrying his daughter into the Ranbaxy family. Shouldn't he have refrained from marrying his daughter into the Singh family? Or hey where Hazur is concerned conviniently it's Karma is supreme?
Why don't you hold him as the root cause for all the disrepute wrecked on RSSB and GSD due to Ranbaxy and Parvinder Singh and family
Been a satsangi 60 yearsi. Am I impressed? Na!!
Posted by: Modi_bhakt | November 11, 2019 at 05:48 PM
Whodunit, how can you compare Christ to Gurinder?
Posted by: Maria de La Torre | November 10, 2019 at 11:04 PM
Hello,
Why can't Whodunnit compare? Do you have a copyright on this fella Christ? Is it that he is not comparable because he was born of a Virgin?
Anybody can not only compare him with anybody/anything else, but also abuse, insult, mock, humiliate, character assassinate, defame ridicule and call him names. And why don't you actually start. I want to see his God fearing, kind and loving followers reaction to your comments. The moronic followers of the types of Ram Rahim, Rampal etc might learn some better and newer ways to react to things said about their Guru and beliefs being mocked.
You also ranted about threats to torch bearers of truth and the merits of remaining anonymous.
It's apparent you have no clue about digital footprint and how anonymous can one remain even using some fake id. Which poster in here is sissy enough to be scared about his anti RSSB/Gurinder rants in here? Please come forward. Am sure Hines must have security arrangements which puts White House to shame.
Posted by: Modi_bhakt | November 11, 2019 at 06:17 PM
You don't impress me either Modi - bhakti. I knew when I mentioned Christ someone would start frothing at the mouth.
You wrote: " Do you have a copyright on this fella Christ? Is it that he is not comparable because he was born of a Virgin?
Anybody can not only compare him with anybody/anything else, but also abuse, insult, mock, humiliate, character assassinate, defame ridicule and call him names. And why don't you actually start. I want to see his God fearing, kind and loving followers reaction to your comments. "
I have no idea what you are talking about Modi, it sounds deranged to me.
As for your other points, there are many unanswerable questions and I certainly don't have all the answers. Am not able to give the reasons as to why Charan Singh appointed Gurinder. Am not here to discuss personalities but I was brought up with certain ethics and spiritual guidelines which laid emphasis on integrity and honesty. If you don't feel those virtues are of any importance then we come from different planets. I can only agree to disagree with you.
You are very aggressive Modi, I have no idea why what I wrote should have provoked such a vitriolic response. Why do you have to mock people? It reveals very poor manners and lack of sensitivity.
As for anonymity, it's a free choice. Why be sarcastic? I think you just like to argue.
Posted by: Maria de a Torre | November 11, 2019 at 11:19 PM
We are agreed on one thing, Modi but are coming at it from different angles. It is a mystery to me as to why Charan, after everything I know about him, would have appointed Gurinder, don't know if you have ever waded into the deep dark waters regarding contentions about the Will of Great Master?
Anyway, all I can say is that am very grateful to Charan because he made my life much better than it was before I met him. The teachings were a guiding light. I will always treasure my contact with him and cherish fond memories of him and Mrs Wood. It's Gurinder I have a problem with.
I was actually going to become an enclosed Catholic nun before Sant Mat as another satsangi was, so your remarks about Jesus were really quite bizarre. When Charan was asked about Jesus, Charan said he was not worthy to tie his shoelaces.
I was referring to the fact Jesus was not interested in all the kingdoms of the world. He told his disciples to carry no purse. Luxury flats in Mayfair don't synchronise with that.
All I do know is that the Sound and Light go back to the dawn of time. It's the Shabd one has to concentrate on, THAT is the real Master and the real Self. There are many Gurus who highjack the techniques, that is a fact but it's also a fact that the Sound and Light can be traced back to Jesus via the Essenes and way back to Enock, the father of Methuselah. I can't talk anymore, Modi. Just wanted to clarify a few points. Just my take on things, that's all.
All best wishes.
Posted by: Maria de a Torre | November 12, 2019 at 12:36 AM
BABAS WILL SHIFT FROM EAST TO WEST ??.
Western lands never produced a Baba so Aryans got fed up and went east ,set up a four verna thingy and were succesful in producing 33 krore Baba,s.Along came a guy and said he does not believe in caste system,god and idol worship.Some started to call him Budha.If we accepted ,that would have been the end of our system.So we outsmarted him and drove his belief out of India and our four verna,s started to function again.Along comes another guy named Nanak and tries to change us till 10th Nanak to say that the word of Guru,s written in the granth will be the Guru.Along come new topi vale sikh(east india co) and realize they need Baba,s to control us but the written granth was in the way.So they pay us big money to produce fake granths and fake Janam sakhi,s paving the way for Baba,s operating from Deras.
Westerners only have one Baba,Jesus.Even he was from east (middle).He is said to have spent his last days in India.I think he knew that nobody treats Baba,s better than India.There is no risk of west breaking our monopoly of producing Baba,s.
Posted by: Amli Lana | November 12, 2019 at 03:31 AM
Amli Lana,
You've never read a single book in your life, have you?
Posted by: Jesse | November 12, 2019 at 08:00 AM
@ Mrs de la Torre
Try to imagine if it would have been possible that your Guru would have been head of the movement these days and his nephew in those days…. and what it would have meant for you.
Think also about the sudden birth of local centres, their growth all over the world and the gifts that were received that made it financial possible … AT THE SAME TIME IN HISTORY
And don't forget to find an answer why after decades without and Indian in the local sangats they all appeared out of nothing while they were living there already for decades.
…..EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME IN HISTORY
Also try to understand why the numbers of westerners in local centras is going down year after year …. EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME IN HISTORY
Ar am i looking at an fata morgana????
Posted by: um | November 12, 2019 at 09:38 AM
Hi Um, am mulling over your points. I have indeed noticed there are few Westerners left that attend RSSB satsang and virtually no young Westerners whatsoever, they are all now flocking to Amma Amritananda instead. The Divine Mother, compassion and love for the creation through service appeals to them far more than lectures. Amma practises what she preaches, no private jets, will not even travel first class. All donations go to the poor. She is celibate and enters the breathless state for hours. There is a completely different atmosphere with Amma.
LSD in the 60's gave everyone a glimpse of the sub Astral and many souls were consequently searching for answers. Having experienced the comforts of materialism and realising it doesn't give happiness, they were sincere seekers. Different atmosphere then.
Look, Um, it's no good asking me about stuff because I don't know the answers to it all. Am not an Atheist, I believe in the Shabd and that Saints exist but apart from that there do seem to be way too many fake Babas around exploiting the masses and it's very unfortunate that people are being duped.
When sincere disciples discover their Guru is not bona fide, it can leave deep wounds in their psyche and they feel a betrayal of trust that is difficult to heal.
All am saying is be VERY careful who you trust.
All that glitters is not gold.
Posted by: Maria de La Torre | November 12, 2019 at 10:19 PM
@ Mrs de la Torre
Things are what they are
seldom what they appear to be
let alone how they are presented.
If one loves a person, one can express it by offering lowers, but not all that offer flowers are kind at heart.
I remember Huzur having said that he could have lived longer but his body could no longer bear the stress for what was going to come and a stronger person was needed.
His nephew when started said that he would end the growth of the sangat and compared that growth with a plant that gets to much water, light and food making it grow to fast with a stem to weak to uphold itself.
As I said maybe I am looking at or creating a fata morgana but as their was a time spirit in the 70ties thre is one now also …. if that is so than all sorts of incidents become an different meaning within that context.
I just try to figure out the omens …. the secret after all lies not in the presence of gurus fake or real but in the hearts of the people who for their own reasons take to heart what they have to say about their inner experiences.
If one losses contact with the content of the movie the world changes dramatically. … an easy experiment all can do to get a glimse of what happens if the characters on the screen all of sudden become blots of light.
Posted by: Um | November 13, 2019 at 02:57 AM
Yes, Um, we have to get back to the light projected on to the screen from the light projector which creates the drama. Everything comes from the light and without the light, there is no movie.
I heard that Charan said his heart attack was due to so many satsangis breaking their vows.
Yes, the sincere love and devotion of the disciples will always be to their credit, love and sincerity are never wasted in the higher sense. All that heart breaking devotion will reach the Light. I do believe that. If God or whatever you want to call consciousness is all Love and Compassion, it will all be taken into account. We can't see the full picture at this level.
Love and best wishes
Posted by: Maria de La Torre | November 13, 2019 at 07:38 AM
@ Mrs. de la Torre
Years ago I too would see this metaphor as you do, today I means to me that people and myself included are caught up in al sorts of "movies", religion and even mysticism, is one of them.
What remains are the fond memories of those days.
But today i cannot understand how people are able to believe anything that is taught by whatever religion or mystic school.
Yes, there are people ho have so called inner experiences, and yes, it is difficult for them to deal with them other than they do … the rest is just hearsay.
Posted by: Um | November 13, 2019 at 09:18 AM
Hi folks
Always good to read something deep, meaningful and heartfelt amidst all the hullabaloo re RSSB.
Thanks Jim Sutherland for your recent post again outlining your inner experience with Charan Singh and your description of Samadhi ‘but ONLY AWARENESS OF,....”I” still exist’
I like your use of the term AWARENESS and that you link it to the “I” still existing. If you don’t mind an interpretation - it’s my view with some experience, that what you describe is the “I Am” state - and it’s not about the self (little I) but is about expansion as Self/Consciousness.
There’s some interesting reading to be had in Chris Wallis’ book ‘The Recognition Sutras’ about the role of Awareness in all this i.e. it is our essence.
Rodney Smith calls it ‘Formless Awareness’, Jiddu Krishnamurti ‘Choiceless Awareness’.
I think Maria de La Torre adds to this information by sharing her own experiences with Charan Singh and her talk of Amma Amritananda (who I know very little about as yet) and the ‘breathless’ state - where the body is essentially dead, the mind is still yet (as I see it), Awareness remains.
From memory, such perspectives/takes on things were not discussed in Sant Mat literature, however I think many if not all sincere truth seekers/devotees and deep meditators will experience this at some time.
Thanks guys for your posts.
Posted by: Tim Rimmer | November 13, 2019 at 12:14 PM
@ maria De La Tore
Baba Charan Singh said his heart attack was due to so many satsangis breaking their vows.
I recall reading a Dera Beas official book circa 1970,s in which Baba Charan Singh said he inherited the problem from his family genes.
I have never been a satsangi,was taken to his satsang in 1975 by elders,being a lawyer he knew how to impress people on stronger points.Traditional Gurdwara,s simply read the holy book without explaining what it meant.
Listened to his tapes and benefitted from it .But was always fed up with his followers boasting about miracles.
Started to hear about GSD from earlier days that he was a flamboyant leisure industry worker in Spian.Then heard he was spending a lot of time with descendants of Sir Sundar Singh Majithia . I am sure that Charan Singh would have stayed away from people like Bikram Majithia .
Ranbaxy is just one issue,land grab scandal is much much bigger in monetary value ,
Posted by: K.Singh | November 13, 2019 at 12:16 PM
Look at the size of company, firstly a person has to understand, how all these things happened. RSSA is running with charity of people for doing social work. Gurjinder Singh Dillon ji is our trusted leader and guru. Court has no right use this money to pay off the other company due to personal matters of his sons.
Posted by: Alamjit Singh | November 25, 2019 at 08:22 PM
Shame on all of you for all your horrible comments. If someone says they can’t make the court appearance there is a reason. Perhaps clean your minds of the filth it is in as you have no idea what they were going through.
Posted by: Anon | November 26, 2019 at 06:16 PM