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November 25, 2019

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Hi Arjuna
You write
"Spence is not God therefore he is not in a position to state that some saints dont reach the highest level."

Actually Arjuna this is what Swami Ji writes, and it looks quite strange to me.

He writes
"Saints alone reached the fifth stage, Sat Nam, and only a few among them reached the eighth stage, Radha Swami..."

ONLY A FEW AMONG THEM REACHED THE EIGHTH STAGE....

So according to Swami Ji very few Saints reach the highest region.

What an odd thing to write.

A Saint, who serves the Father, can't go home?

That region is everyone's true home. We all came from there and we are all sitting there now, at another level of consciousness. Anyone can go there if they are sincere in their desire for the Father. They don't have to understand it fully at all. The pull comes from Him and that pull cannot be affected by our ignorance.

What Swami Ji wrote is false. Anyone, even us meager plebes, can go home at any time.


Spence, you wrote

How can you know about my inner experiences? Are you claiming to have ESP? Or to have different inner experiences?

Me: should I pity you. For once I will and remind you to look up your own posts detailing your inner experiences and which to much glee to many in here were proved to be fake. Rest assured I won't waste my spiritual wealth checking out about you.

Then you go on and ask if it's a humble opinion that your external knowledge about santmat is abysmal

Me: no it's not my humble opinion. It's an arrogant one of a 5th generation RSSB follower!!!!!

Discuss Sant Mat with you...... Na. Absolute waste of time. You have your duo uncle/nephew to tell you all about it. Enjoy your time with them. You know who I mean right. But just don't post that gibberish in here. We don't want to die of boredom.

Btw, did you say a hi to them from me?

To all concerned:
This is proof there is no such thing as inner experiences for human beings.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/04/my-zen-snow-globe.html

Our brains are likened to son’ globes, random twatterings of matter that contain fictional images.
All hail the Sno’ Globe

"Gibberish is just an unkind way to tell the world that you don't understand"

No, she was correct. You speak gibberish that changes from one moment to the next.

I speak gibberish too, but I do it intentionally to show how dumb the entire topic of measuring religion is. You're trying to convince people that you're smart and important and you won't stop until we all accept it.

By the way, you either start sacrificing water buffaloes or you'll never get to the 9th stage that soami ji never heard of. The highest and truest father region God hates pussies who are afraid to slice the heads off of animals. This is a fact.

Simple
Look where your heart is
Which Chakras are generated, accumulated

That's where everybody goes; go. go. go

777
💖➽🔥 🎥💖

Hi X17
You wrote
"Me: no it's not my humble opinion. It's an arrogant one of a 5th generation RSSB follower!!!!!"

Yes, that's a problem.

But if you don't wish to discuss Sant Mat here, in any detail, with any factual evidence from the books, and only fifth hand, hand-me-down superstitions and prejudices, why are you here?

It's cowardly to stand like a frightened child behind your 5 generations of supetstitious elders. You can walk, chew gum and think for yourself all at the same time!

And you can invent your own new prejudices to replace the old ones!

I do that at least once a week!

This is the Open Thread. And if Jesse and you and others can hurl unfounded insults, filled with hatred, cruelty and venom, from what must be unfulfilled lives, which is your every right, then I can share visions of brotherhood.

At least Sri Jesse occasionally crafts his insults with brilliance.

X17, if that really is your name, which I doubt, try harder.

You asked me before to STFU

But don't you know that I'm already doing this as a leading member of
Special
Task
Force
Unicorn?

Look for the Unicorns!

It's a job I take very seriously, just a seriously as you take yourself.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"I speak gibberish too,.."

Yes, we all know you do. You are fine.


Hi Mike
You wrote
"To all concerned:
This is proof there is no such thing as inner experiences for human beings."

None? LOL!
Not even imagination? Nor perception? Nor memory?
Here is a tiny secret. Every experience you have is inside you.

Yes, it's all inside you. That's true. It isn't somewhere else.

Spence,

I am a clueless seeker. Would you be kind enough to list 5 verses (shabads) composed by the founder of your faith ie RadhaSoami. Founder is Soamiji right.

Clueless, you're probably just messing around, but there's a shabd called dham apne chalo bhai that's really good. I left that religion long ago but I still love that poem.

Hi Clueless
Do you mind if I call you Clue?

Here are six..


"Hansas come forward to receive the entrant (surat)
" They have come to take me to alakh Lok


" The paragon surat goes in and gets Darshan of Alakh Purush


" Songs of congratulations are being sung there. All Hansas
(denizens of Alakh Lok) jointly perform arti.


"I effect my ingress into Agam Lok. Secrets of Agam Purush are revealed to me.


" No one has revealed the secrets of that region. Rare Saints have spoken about it in a gupt (hidden) way.

"Taking pity on jivas, Radha soami has now revealed the secrets openly."


Clueless, you're probably just messing around, but there's a shabd called dham apne chalo bhai that's really good. I left that religion long ago but I still love that poem.

Posted by: Jesse | December 02, 2019 at 07:30 PM

You really think I am messing around??? Maybe yes but not in the way you thought.

What if the RS shabds have not been composed by Soamiji and only artificially attributed to him?

It's a nice shabd no doubt. One of Hazur's favorite.


@spence

You want to engage on Santmat basis book knowledge? Books which your GSD says to burn LOL. Besides in your case why not basis your actual inner experience?

Time to search the truth about - did Soamiji compose the RS shabds? I suspect it's likely to be elusive like X17 my dear surface physicist and the RSSB books aren't a good source for this.

X17 the 5th generation RSSB follower and X17 the fifth fundamental force of nature.

@X17 (the poster) - Would you oblige and provide clarity to me, a clueless seeker. Much appreciated.


Again : The Old Town s Road ( Youtube ). . ; Listen


The Old Books ,. . . The Old Songs

"Anybody tells me nothing"

So wise , that expression

In that time without TV, Radio even they were great
As actually nobody understands them anymore

Y e s
It's better to burn them
Like the sweet carcasses of great meditators are also burned

If U haven"t it within ... one thing is left : Direct Dharshan

Therefore will come: 3/4D, 16 - 32 K Real Working Darshan
and Streaming
when the waters will make everything more difficult and book float away

777

I correct myself

I have one book, I had yo order a second one cause I had eaten the first copy
"Spiritual Letters"

The first full of my remarks and it helped me above measure

Dun't burn

and my first time book was "Autobiography of a Yogi"
from Yogananda
google piet romein


777

Hi Clue
You wrote
"You want to engage on Santmat basis book knowledge? Books which your GSD says to burn LOL. Besides in your case why not basis your actual inner experience?"

Your questions are great and they contain all the answers.... Book knowledge alone is worthless. But if it matches your own experience in a few lines, it's elegant.

Even the words of the Bible are meaningless from a historical perspective. But Christian mystics wisely teach that the Bible is a living document that is only completed with your own experience of those truths.

And they are not of much historical validity, but entirely of psychological value and validity. And spiritual value, if you understand this to mean the internal expression, the internal experience of the divine.

The laughter, applause and shouts of joy and welcome as you enter those higher regions cannot adequately be described. Except your experience is precisely of those things. So reading about it is just a reminder of the internal life.

-
Why the RSSB guru has broken an initiate's heart

In my eyes this answer marks the Level of SatGuru

It would be good to ask the Lady how she feels now!

That is because the man telling Krishnamurti in Gztaad Switzerland about the burn-out of his farm
Next robbed in the train and beaten , lost a leg
after arriving and explaining he got Krisnamurt’s reaction as follows:

“Yes Sir, . . What’s the problem?"

And that man feels so fine now with that strange answer

They just give the answer which is the best for the person

777

@ 777.

I thought that. He probably cleared a lot of her Sin. Dont feel sorry. I can remember the Great Master hitting disciples with his stick what lovely grace .

You know it 777

Hi Arjuna

You quoted our dear friend 777 then commented :

"I thought that. He probably cleared a lot of her Sin. Dont feel sorry. I can remember the Great Master hitting disciples with his stick what lovely grace .

" You know it 777"

My how things have changed. Or I'm missing something (nothing new for me ;))

There was a time you were very hard on Baba Ji for being unsympathetic to your situation, and isolation.

But now it's all grace to be so hard on a disabled woman? Asking more from her than he himself is willing to give?

Can you help me understand your new found admiration for cruelty? Elevated to divinity?

What am I missing here?

@spence

You can search the books and listen to the tapes, you will find that his reaction is the standard one … you can read their reaction as an neglect of empathy or as pointing out what I happen to call the small path.

The small path is related to all things Christ must have in mind when he said "love your enemies"

Loving enemies has nothing to do with the pain that is inflicted by the enemy, nor is it a justification for the evil that was done that caused the pain … it is the small way that has the best outcome for the victim …. love!!!

Small, because it is easy to love those who do whatever suits one and makes one happy.

Again this is my understanding of the teachings of mystics

Hi Um
You write
"You can search the books and listen to the tapes, you will find that his reaction is the standard one … you can read their reaction as an neglect of empathy or as pointing out what I happen to call the small path.

The small path is related to all things Christ must have in mind when he said "love your enemies"

This woman is not Baba Ji's enemy. She is his sister, and needs to be treated as such. Just as Christ treated his disciples as his brothers.

He washed their dirty feet, not criticize them for it.

@ Spence.

I changed my mind. That's all.

@ um .

We are not all trained to think like that. Of you need books to understand human emotion and flaws . You are pretty sad man. Book a holiday with Spence so he can bore you with Christ stories which he wasnt there to observe.

Laters losers

@ Spence

Things are what they are
but seldom what they appear to be
let alone how they ar presented

..... there are more ways to deal with suffering then the usual … like christ showed there are other ways than usual with enemies .... that is all

There is the high way where the masses walk and smaller ways.

It so simple ... yes ... walking the high way is more common and more comfortable.

It is up to you which one you prefer

Hi Um

I'm with you..

You write
"It so simple ... yes ... walking the high way is more common and more comfortable."

That would be to have sympathy for the Guru, who has all the power. And to justify his every action, even to emulate it, however unkind.

But my heart goes out to the woman in the wheel chair. Apparently this is a minority view among many in the Sangat.

I suggest the superstitions around the perfect Master actually block common decency.

And I'm pretty sure a true Sat Guru, who might chide a daughter, only to flood her with inner wealth, would abhor the justifications for cruelty from the Sangat, as a terrible, terrible misunderstanding, indulgence in ego and religion.


@ Arjuna

The same things can be said by different people and are reacted to in different ways.
We approach th same things also in a different way the more we grow older and depending what life had to offer.

We all hold on to what has helped us in the past o deal with the world.

Sometimes we realise that the understanding that was once the best to have, has become contra productive. I carried with me a grudge against my mother for many years. An remark of his uncle showing the small path to go made me think again and in a different way. First reluctant as I felt not understood by him and expecting some sort of compassion for my feelings. But giving it a chance I started to shift slowely. Shortly thereafter the grudge had disappeared … the scars were still there and today it is up to me how I deal with the memory of my upbringing.

@ Spence

You feel that a teacher has to react as an common man, in an common role … I don't.

If I come in the hospital I don't expect and professional to deal with me as is common for family friends etc. I want him to do his work properly and if he does I will be gratefull

We say that soft docters mak stinking wounds

It is that simple ….

@Spence and Arjuna

Some days ago there was a link to a TED talk by a therapist by the name of Lori Gottlieb with the tittle "How changing your story can change your life".

She uses the concept of storytelling and I that of games people play but basically thy are the same thing. Her re-writing is the same as taking the small road.

She is very funny also

Have an look if you didn't yet … or do it again

Hi Um
You write
"You feel that a teacher has to react as an common man, in an common role … I don't.*

No, Um. I think the true teacher demonstrates a level of compassion not found anywhere else.

A common teacher becomes impatient and hard on their students. But it is poor workman who blames their tools.

They come to alleviate the suffering of the world. As Christ taught, and Maharaji noted, this woman is already condemned. Condemned to a life imprisoned in her disability.

And as Maharaji taught, it is not the place of Christ to condemn those who seek compassion, and in the company of compassion, to become themselves compassionate.

You believe compassion is common. But you are mistaken, Um.

I hope I'm not too hard on you.

@ spence

>> I hope I'm not too hard on you. <<

That is up to you to think about … you know what you are doing and why.

I just read your words and compare them with what he used to say and what can be listen to these days on tape or read in his Q&A books and as said again and again I do not find his words reflected in what you write.

Not that it matters but what is square is just not round and increasing the angles it still does not become round.

Spence:
Hi Mike
You wrote
"To all concerned:
This is proof there is no such thing as inner experiences for human beings."

None? LOL!
Not even imagination? Nor perception? Nor memory?
Here is a tiny secret. Every experience you have is inside you.

Yes, it's all inside you. That's true. It isn't somewhere else. Spence

Exactly my point.
All so called inner experiences are imagination.

Game set and match to me 🥳

Hi Mike
You wrote
"All so called inner experiences are imagination."

Please read what I wrote again. You missed it.
"Not even imagination? Nor perception? Nor memory?"
Not just imagination, Mike. Your entire view of this physical world. All the things you learned, filtered through that brain. Not just imagination. Everything. Even the things you can't explain. They all have a physical basis, and the brain is connected to this physical world in ways we don't understand much about. And it's own operation you can learn to perceive.

I came to you as love, and you thought that meant zed.
And now you have lost the match.
Too easy.


Hi Um
It is only when you realize your are wrong, not before the Master, but before just another plebe like yourself, that you will withdraw from blame.

And when you are hungry, poor, disabled, and someone, a stranger, offers you food and shelter, just because they feel that you are their brother, their heart goes out to you as of your were a part of themselves, then you will understand the path.

By choosing to turn your back on others, you are forging your next lesson.

But isn't that how the wheel works? We forge every spoke.

@ spence

As said before, your point of view, is nowhere reflected in the teachings of Sant mat.
If you can find it in the Philosophy of the masters. vol 1-5, you are most welcome.

But my heart goes out to the woman in the wheel chair. Apparently this is a minority view among many in the Sangat.

I suggest the superstitions around the perfect Master actually block common decency.

And I'm pretty sure a true Sat Guru, who might chide a daughter, only to flood her with inner wealth, would abhor the justifications for cruelty from the Sangat, as a terrible, terrible misunderstanding, indulgence in ego and religion.


Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 05, 2019 at 12:11 PM

This is only in your misfired brain. Satsangis with even little understanding of santmat will say Master knows what's best for a disciple - now that disciple may be wheel chair bound or blind or whatever.

And infact what a Master will abhor is people like you butting in and opining what he ought to have done or not done or said and/or not said.

Knowing an individuals account of what supposedly transpired during a Q&A, you have almost penned a book of your views thereon - maybe without even knowing what happened with that lady thereafter. Maybe she has already paid for the 'gifts' received.

@ Spence
You words remind me of what happend a couple of years ago in Italy. During a festival in a small town in Italy I wanted something to eat and went into a bar that sold all sorts of sandwiches. I asked him to make me one with cheese. To my supprise he said "No, we don't sell cheese sandwiches" I said: "Look there is the cheese, there are the rolls, what os the problem.?"

"It is not on the menu" he answered. I could not believe my own ears. Realizing that he was not going to make me a cheese roll i walked out and turning my head i said "Well … the day will come that YOU TOO will be hungry, and you will encounter somebody that is unwilling as you are … in that day you will remember me and whish he had acted otherwise.

That was than, years ago … now I would walk out with a smile on my face.


All so called inner experiences are imagination.

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand." ― Albert Einstein

"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?" --Chuang Tzu

Dear Spence,
You wrote:
“Mike.
I came to you as love”

Thank you Spence.
That means a lot.

Dungeness
Imagination is the dream we all share
Professor Eugene Genetics

Hi Um
You wrote
"As said before, your point of view, is nowhere reflected in the teachings of Sant mat."

This is false, Since pointed out before, on Nov. 30th...

Here I will the words of Maharaji from Spiritual Perspectives

"Sister we should try our best to help them. We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. Only humans can be helpful to humans. But we should not be involved so much that we do not have time for our own selves."
- Spiritual Perspectives, Vol 3, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, page 154, question 205.

You see Um, it is a matter of balance. But it is a requirement.

" We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. "

So this notion of helping others, which you believe is foreign to Sant May, is in fact a duty, according to Maharaji.

What you claim isn't actually Sant Mat.

You asked...

"If you can find it in the Philosophy of the masters. vol 1-5, you are most welcome."

How many citations will it take to believe what you refuse to believe?

"The foundation of love is to give. Whatever there is love, there will only be the feeling to give, and the desire to receive anything will never be formed. Lovr is selfless. It is not selfish."
— Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, Philosphy of the Masters, vol. 2, page 253.

@ Spence
I could not find it in my books …. but that doesn't matter i searched for charity because tht is what you are writing about and did find it.

It is in serie three, in the chapter on DHARMA under the heading CHARITY, starting page 212 until 219.

I speaks about ZAKAT[ the muslim vow on charity] and DASAMANSH[ Charity of one-tenth of income as can be found in other religions].

Then comes an interesting part with the heading "to whom should charity be given"
Interesting ….. have a read.

I could not find in that part of the philosphy that charity is a sine qua non for walking the path as you suggest, in contrary.

Dr Eugene Genetics
Not Professor.
My padwan is boasting in his posting


Imagination is the dream we all share

But you can awake from dreams and the mystic's path
uses that imagination to "embrace all there ever will be
to know and understand."


From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMu5XLux_GA

"Imagination is not what you think. It’s how you think. Cognitive research reveals that images, metaphors and stories are the basis of our mental operating system: the origin of our intuitions and our irrationality. Counterintuitively, more accurate insights do not come from increasing information or reason, but educating our imagination."

Hi Um
Well if you have found the citation from Spiritual Perspectives I think it is certainly a direct as can be
" We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. "

This is simply love. The term charity has become a formal and documented act.

Love and brotherhood, helping others, volunteering somewhere, or just helping others where there is no thought for yourself. That's service to God whatever it takes place.

"Those whose eyes are open see all human beings as manifestations of God, like rays of the sun or the waves of the ocean."
Sawan Singh, Philosophy of the Masters vol. 2, pg 114

You see Um, it is not simply the Master who is a wave from the ocean that is the Lord. It is everyone.... Including you and I.

" Therefore, who can be low or who can be high?.... There is only one Good in heaven and one family in earth......Mulana Rum says :

" The current of love from the one God is flowing theory the entire universe. What do you think when you look at the face of a man [or woman]? Look at him or her carefully. He is not a man or woman, but a current of the essence of God (love) which permeates him. "
Ibid

Naturally we should treat everyone as our family, our dear brother or sister, or beloved mom or dad, our adored and protected child.

Sawan Singh goes on to quote Krishna...

" He who is able to see My form in everything, who realizes that they're is no difference between different beings is, in fact, the true seer. Such a person I can never forget."
Ibid, pg 115

You see Um, this is the real and true Sant Mat.

Before there was a Dera, or a single international center, before even the name" "Sant Mat" there were the teachings. And they will be here long after Sant Mat becomes a formal religion and then fades away.

Hi Um
More from Majaraji on helping others...
"When the devotion of the Lord comes in us, we find that same devotion of the lord in everyone. Then we actually want to help everybody. We feel like helping because we find the lord in everyone. The lord is our object of love, he is our beloved. So we want to do everything for others, just for the love of the lord, and not the personality. But that is possible only if we develop that devotion and love for the Lord within ourselves. "

You see Um, helping others is the natural result of spirituality. It is not something we do to gain spiritually, but is the result of it.

Then we cannot avoid helping anyone and everyone. It is just natural.

And as you can see it is a natural part of the path, at a stage of our progress. You cannot be intimate with the Lord without automatically becoming a brother or sister to all people, and all creatures.

And so, just as you would help your bother or sister, mother or father, son or daughter, you help anyone you encounter who needs the help, and anyone else nearby. Driving a few minutes to volunteer your time is no burden. That is actually, just your duty as a citizen of the human race.

As Maharaji said so often..
"Sister, we should always try to be helpful to others."

That's Sant Mat.

@ Spence

>>You see Um, helping others is the natural result of spirituality.
It is not something we do to gain spiritually, but is the result of it. <<

That is how it is Spence …. Helping others is not something we do to gain spirituality.

[1]And so, just as you would help your bother or sister, mother or father, son or daughter, you help anyone you encounter who needs the help, and anyone else nearby.

This is what he used to say, help those who cross your path and to whom you have an dutie.

[2]Driving a few minutes to volunteer your time is no burden. That is actually, just your duty as a citizen of the human race.

This what he attributed to those who are professionaly involved in welfare for others it would be SEEKING FOR … or …. GOING OUT OF PATH ...something he said we should not do.
The reasons for that are ample cklearified in the Philosofy of Sant Mat under the heading DHARMA / to whom should we give charity and the warning that we run the risk of creating karma, that binds us more and more to this world.

Things are what they are, also written words of saints
but seldom what thy look like
let alone how they are PRESENTED

Spence I have never heard him say that one has to go in to the world to see if one could help or as you say ""Driving a few minutes to volunteer your time is no burden.""

Nor did he ever say: "That is actually, just your duty as a citizen of the human "

We were not supposed to transform an prison environment B in A.

You know that

Hi Um
I see the point you are trying to make. But you are really ignoring what Maharaji and Sawan Singh taught, by referring to formal charities.

It's not about creating Karma but helping wherever we can. That's all service to the Master. And when you see the Master in the eyes of the indigent and poor, then you will understand that helping them is not creating any new Karma at all. You are just in His Will. He is the Doer. You are serving Him, intimate time with Him.

As you can see from what Maharaji said several times, we are born to help each other. So long as we maintain our focus on Him, service helps our meditation, and is no harm to it. It is all His Will, not ours. Just give all that to Him, and you go be a better brother or sister, son or daughter, father or mother to a stranger who needs that help.

There are so many hours of the day outside meditation and Satsang. How do we spend it? Local Seva is a great way to actually protect and nurture that atmosphere of meditation.

You have taken the problem of creating Karma to excess, to justify going out of your way to avoid helping others. There is Karma in that also, Um. Negative Karma. You still have debts to pay, and Seva in your own local area, where your Karma is, is a great way to do it. So you don't have to come back.

But if you are avoiding volunteering your time in your community, then you are avoiding the Karma allotted to you in this life. When you see that whole record, you will understand. Until then, let your heart lead you to connect with and feel for these brothers and sisters. Take the risk of compassion. As Sawan Singh wrote, we are all in the same family. It's not right for family members to avoid helping each other.

So if you have a few hours of the day, you give. You are supposed to do that, as service to the Master, no one else.

There was an eye camp for a reason. Charitable hospitals for a reason. Langar for a reason. Not just at Dera, not only for Satsangis. But Dera is only a model of the little Dera you should build in your heart and in your community. And if you don't, even the big Dera has failed in its purpose.

There are services where you can volunteer in your own community. Dera in your community waits for you. Master has set it all up and He is there waiting patiently for you to come and do your Seva today. This is a point Baba Ji has stressed over and over and over again. It is not His responsibly to do all the Seva alone, or to have Satsangis around the world only serve at Dera, without being moved to any compassion in their own communities to help. In fact, as temperamental as Baba Ji is, seeing this sort of behavior, where being helpful is limited to Dera and RSSB, makes him quite cross. Then it's just for show. But if you serve in a local charity or service, without anyone else knowing about it, then it's all intimacy with Master.

Doing local service us just to help. Has nothing to do with making Karma. Master handles all that. And we help because we are moved to do so. People are suffering. Its not about doing good deeds. It's not about you or me. It's about their suffering and need. We already are being taken care of. It's about them, not us. So put yourself aside, just as you should in meditation, also in service.

To ignore that or to go as far as you are going, out of your way to avoid helping, really is a complete corruption of what the Master's are all about. It's not Sant Mat.

They are not the only ones responsible to help the world. You have your part to play also. That's why you are here.

Let me put this to you in another way.

If people are suffering in your community, and you can help alleviate their suffering today, by bringing them some clothes, by giving some time to babysit their children, by helping bring a meal to an elderly shut - in, why on Earth would you refuse?

That shut - in, that infant is Master.

He will take care of all the karmic issues, if there are any. That's on him. But your job is to live the compassion you have asked of him. You give to those in need the love you expect and demand of Master.

You will save yourself substantial delay in your own progress.

They come to alleviate the suffering of the world.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 05, 2019 at 04:25 PM

If this is their purpose all are abject failures.

Pure BS.

You see Um, helping others is the natural result of spirituality. It is not something we do to gain spiritually, but is the result of it.

Then we cannot avoid helping anyone and everyone. It is just natural.


Posted by: Spence Tepper | December 06, 2019 at 08:21 PM

Again BS. The natural result of spirituality is gaining an understanding of and living in HIS BHANA (God's will)

jou raaj deh ta kavan badaa-ee.
jou bheekh mangaaveh ta ki-aa ghat jaa-ee.
(If You gave me an empire, then what glory would be in it for me?

jou bheekh mangaaveh ta ki-aa ghat jaa-ee. ||1||
If You made me beg for charity, what would it take away from me? )

Or

Tera Bhana meetha lage
(Sweet is thy will)


One final point, Um
Service in the community, when you are doing it in service to Master, isn't creating new Karma and isn't saving the world. It is simply living in balance. While you are here you have Karmic work here. Master is in charge of all that, but what is before you, in that range of miles around you, is what Master has arranged for you.

Give what you can, in time, effort and kindness, from what you have of these, as well as money and resources. Do what you can.

But if you do not do what you can, with just a small degree of effort, within the life of meditation, within the physical resources of your available health, available time and mobility, you are actually doing the opposite. To be passive when you where given life here, is to be passive about your own debts and your past in your own spiritual development. The two are not separate and cannot be conveniently compartmentalized. And then you are incurring debt, running up the taxi meter while idling, insisting the driver to just wait and wait. And Master is your cab driver. Debts will never get paid that way.

You can't ask for help and then refuse to do your part. Or only do the easy, convenient and comfortable parts. Spirituality doesn't 'work that way. It's 24/7 thing Um.

I say this because if compassion doesn't move you to forget yourself and help without even thinking about it, then perhaps self - interest, and pointing out self - destructive behaviors, might help inch you forward out of your comfortable warren. You aren't a rabbit. You are a lion. Go roar! (that's from Baba Ji).


@ Spence

So be it … You have done what you could …. the wheel of karma will turn and turn.

My final word to it …. I never had the intention to do good nor bad … but what I did had good and bad consequences.

Pasta is al dente or not .. there is no good to it

Once an youth pressed me heavily to take responsibility for the problems he faced. I told him that i am not Jesus Christ and if it would be the case that a key to his happiness was to be found in my pocket I would run to the window and jump out of it out of sheer terror knowing that life was already difficult enough for myself to handle let alone that I could carry the burden of another person.

In the rather elaborate correspondence I had with MCS he never advised me anything you stress here … the opposite I would say …

Gurus Inc
You wrote
"The natural result of spirituality is gaining an understanding of and living in HIS BHANA (God's will)"

You really think His will doesn't encompass the entire creation?
Why don't you go there first, and then come back and tell me charity, kindness and brotherhood are outside of God's will.

LOL....

Charity kindness and brotherhood are only outside your will. N
But all charity, kindness and brotherhood, even the tiniest acts of compassion, are all God's will, and only God's will.

But you can see how easy it is to constrain God, to enslave God to justify your limitations, because He remains in silent service, rather than take the risk of expanding your vision to partake of Him in His fullness directly.

Hi Gurus Inc
Sawan Singh writes
"All spiritual practices and undertakings are for the sole purpose of awakening love. Without it all modes of prayer and worship are virtually fruitless. As soon as love enters the scene all blessings start accumulating in the heart, whereas all blessings depart with the elimination of love from the scene of life.

"When tinged with love, even our worldly affairs - for example our family life, business transactions and other activities - become a source of happiness and bliss. We learn to love the Lord as well as his creation in the recognition that we are all partners in his grace.

"All are called partners in Thy grace.
Thou art seen alien to none.

" Sabhe saajheevaal safaayan
toon kisai na diseh baarha jee'o.
- Guru Arjun, AG 97

"Love enables us to feel a kinship with all life on earth - to feel that all are children of the same benevolent Father. All jealousy and 'otherness' disappear from the heart as soon as love comes in. Love is the path of complete self - sacrifice and giving one's heart away..... The state described above is the end result of all repetitions, susterities and prayers, and one who has attained this state needs no other form of worship."
- Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, The Philosophy of The Masters, volume 2, pages 3-4


It is love that reveals we are all brothers and sisters in the same family, with one Father.

And so it is natural that we treat strangers as we would our beloved brothers, sisters, mother and father, and dearly adored children.

Hi Um
You wrote
". I told him that i am not Jesus Christ and if it would be the case that a key to his happiness was to be found in my pocket I would run to the window and jump out of it out of sheer terror knowing that life was already difficult enough for myself to handle let alone that I could carry the burden of another person."

You misunderstand. To help others anyone can do. If only Jesus Christ could help people alone that would be an insult to Jesus Christ. He can work through many, many people, just as Master does.

Helping is not taking on anyone's burden. It is actually lightening your burden, handing your burden to Master. Because you are now living in His will. It's all His doing now. And if He wants you to help others there won't be a discussion. Then you don't have any burden at all. But this all happens in its own time.

I'm sorry I do not know about your personal correspondence with Maharaji. If you asked whether you could spend some time helping others and He advised you to avoid helping others it can only be because your own personal duties were being neglected. Of course they come first.

But I suspect you may only have asked Him if you had to help others, if it was a requirement. In that case He may have told you simply to meet your first responsibility, to meditation.

But as I've written, at a stage, you will be unable to avoid helping others. You will be compelled to do it. Just as both Master and Christ are compelled by our Father. You will be with them and will do as they do, all in the Father's will. You need not worry on that front.

But I would not advise you to justify anyone else's inaction in the face of need or want of others. Especially not to claim helping others is outside of Sant Mat teachings. It is quite the opposite.

Nor would I suggest you hide your own situation behind Sant Mat. It is not to be used to justify inaction or unkindness in the presence of need and want at any time.

Spence, you speak of "service" many times in your comments.

Um says, about carrying the burden of another person... "In the rather elaborate correspondence I had with MCS he never advised me anything you stress here … the opposite I would say …".

"Spiritual Gems" page 90: "What is real service to humanity? To free the soul - which has been for ages subject to transmigration - from the cycle of births, and to raise it to the pure spiritual region from where it will never be sent back to undergo births and deaths. All other forms of service are merely temporary."

@ spence

It is simple, I have never heard him stressing helping others the way you write about it.
Nor did i found anything of the same in books or know of activities of the sangat in that direction.

I have taken your words as your personal motivations and goals in life, and I am in no position, nor willing to attach any value to it. It is all up to you how you conduct your life.

You are love. You are bliss. You are consciousness. You are existence.
Know this. Be this.
Nothing can harm or trouble you, as none of what seems to be, actually is. Only you, are. There is only, this aware presence that I am.
I Am That. I Am.

Zen Thinking

Hi Jen
Our first duty is to our spiritual practice. All Saints teach that. There is no substitute for it. But the reward of true spirituality is love. And true love is union with the divine. In that union we are one with His will. All people are children of the same father. And we are therefore brothers, sisters, fathers, daughters, mothers and sons to each other. When we see others in need....

"Sister we should try our best to help them. We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. Only humans can be helpful to humans. But we should not be involved so much that we do not have time for our own selves."
- Spiritual Perspectives, Vol 3, Maharaj Charan Singh Ji, page 154, question 205.

" We must help people in the world. We are born for that purpose. "

You wrote that we are bliss. Isn't that an aspect of love? Is that just for ourselves, Jen?

"The foundation of love is to give. Whatever there is love, there will only be the feeling to give, and the desire to receive anything will never be formed. Love is selfless. It is not selfish."
— Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, Philosphy of the Masters, vol. 2, page 253.

So who are we giving to? And what are we giving?

We can do our meditation and help each other. Helping others, when we are actually doing so in the Presence of the Master is His Will. He is doing it all. That's the only way acts of kindness can be done. The two things are naturally related.

Acts of service for the purpose of any personal or Spiritual gain, of course, is backwards. But helping others to the natural degree of our compassion, as part of our devotion to Master, is actually part of the path. And it is part of basic decency and humanity.

We will never change this world. But we should always be happy to do our part.

Hi Um
You wrote
"It is simple, I have never heard him stressing helping others the way you write about it."

If you can just accept the Master's words, that is more than enough...

"All spiritual practices and undertakings are for the sole purpose of awakening love. Without it all modes of prayer and worship are virtually fruitless. As soon as love enters the scene all blessings start accumulating in the heart, whereas all blessings depart with the elimination of love from the scene of life.

"When tinged with love, even our worldly affairs - for example our family life, business transactions and other activities - become a source of happiness and bliss. We learn to love the Lord as well as his creation in the recognition that we are all partners in his grace.

"All are called partners in Thy grace.
Thou art seen alien to none.

" Sabhe saajheevaal safaayan
toon kisai na diseh baarha jee'o.
- Guru Arjun, AG 97

"Love enables us to feel a kinship with all life on earth - to feel that all are children of the same benevolent Father. All jealousy and 'otherness' disappear from the heart as soon as love comes in. Love is the path of complete self - sacrifice and giving one's heart away..... The state described above is the end result of all repetitions, susterities and prayers, and one who has attained this state needs no other form of worship."
- Great Master, Sawan Singh Ji, The Philosophy of The Masters, volume 2, pages 3-4

"When the devotion of the Lord comes in us, we find that same devotion of the lord in everyone. Then we actually want to help everybody. We feel like helping because we find the lord in everyone. The lord is our object of love, he is our beloved. So we want to do everything for others, just for the love of the lord, and not the personality. But that is possible only if we develop that devotion and love for the Lord within ourselves. "
- Maharaj Charan Singh, Spiritual Perspectives, Volume 3, page 155 (answer to question 206

Just try to achieve the level Maharaji is speaking about in order to have that love, that bliss, and that communion with the Lord so that you naturally act in His Will.

@ um

Dont pay to much heed to Spence. His opinions are dangerous and he is a text book guru. Empty vessel rattles harder.

I sussed him out long time ago.

All the best

@ Arjuna

:-)

Spence, you've flipped back into weirdo religious preachy church type language. You've shown your true colours. It is strange because most of us here on this blog are probably more atheist than religious. You need to find a pulpit where you can chastise and preach to people who might even believe in the nonsense you speak of.

Didn't read everything but agree OF COURSE
with the latest quotes from MaharaJI Charan & Sawan

It corresponds very much
with my
"How it works" piece

Love is everything
but I insist 1000% on
Some know more than others
and when you know the ship will definitely sink , . . . . ;
as a Master you invest ( eventual very greedy )
in swimming lessons and boats
to make the drama as soft as possible

Don't give away to eat the last sac of semen

I didn't"t check them all but guys, dolls
take google earth and look at what level above sea level
these grounds are situated

PS
Ever heard about waves 200 feet high . . . at coasts
Do some imaginations

777

This BBJ is awesome and yes hard when needed
Re-see the movie "The trigger effect"
and that was a tiny roll over of power only

Hi Arjuna
I think Um has tried his best to say that kindness, compassion and brotherhood are not part and parcel of Sant Mat or Spirituality.

I believe kindness, compassion and brotherhood are qualities that arise naturally from any spiritual progress, and that this occurrence is acknowledged by the Saints. In fact I've cited statements by Sawan Singh and Maharaji in support of this view.

Do you have an opinion about the statements of Sawan Singh and Maharaji cited above? I mean, can you offer something that isn't a personal attack?


@Spence
>> I think Um has tried his best to say that kindness, compassion and brotherhood are not part and parcel of Sant Mat or Spirituality. <<

These words of yours don't reflect my intentions nor what I wrote; they are part and parcel of the teachings of Sant Mat but not in the way you present them here.

Your repeated advise to me, to go and seek after opportunities to practice these values, is the only point of difference, and the suggestion for the dear consequences if I didn't.

That is all.

Hi Um
Understood. We are both from different cultures, looking at the same teaching. We will never see it quite identically at this level, using mind. But so long as we understand our mission is to transcend this level, that is the only important thing.

When I came to the path, Managing a program for mentally and physically handicapped young adults, my Satsangi friend asked why I would want to continue working with such a heavy population. To me it was living in God's will. It was no burden at all.

But that was my own conditioning. From inside, it is all freedom. But outside looking in, it may appear very difficult. From inside, there is no way to proceed even ten seconds without Master. But from outside the fear of being overwhelmed by such work is understandable.

So when, as fate would have it, my own child was born with disabilities, it was actually a gift made by God Himself to a parent long prepared. Sam was delivered by Cessarian, and wide awake. As they pulled him from the womb he and I looked at each other, the first person he laid eyes on, and he was smiling. And so I smiled, and knew no matter what difficulties lay ahead, we were living in the palm of Master's hand.

To me these things cannot be separated. Love, Service and Master are all one, Him. But it is a matter of how things were arranged in my own life that I am thus.

Hi Jen
You wrote
"Spence, you've flipped back into weirdo religious preachy church type language. You've shown your true colours. It is strange because most of us here on this blog are probably more atheist than religious. You need to find a pulpit where you can chastise and preach to people who might even believe in the nonsense you speak of."

So you believe it is nonsense to help each other as a personal duty?

And you have flipped back into personal attacks against an innocent (if misguided) human being. Just to defend your position of no obligation and no interest to help anyone? To give back a little for all you were given?

Now which is the real Spence and the real Jen?

I suspect these are simply different sides of the same personalities.

And probably we are both appalled and disappointed to discover those qualities in each other.

One more point, Jen
You claim this is an Atheist forum. All well and good!

An Atheist is often the most compassionate. Because they don't assume that helping is God's job. For them, there is no God to fix the problem. And therefore they have no excuse to remain idle.

If they don't step forward, no one will. They don't care about incurring Karma. Even meditation, when others are suffering, it's bull shit to them. They see only need and they reach out to help. They are called from their own heart to help. And they go help.

When Brian Ji steps forward in a public hearing to defend people against religious prejudice, he is helping others out of compassion. He has zero personal interest. He does it from zero religious superstition. And even when doing so comes at a personal cost, a personal risk.

The duty to compassion, and to reaching out to help others is often the strongest among Atheists. They love the Truth. And why they are often God's closest allies. If there is a God. If there is any chance of a Divine benevolent power, their religion is Atheism, and Atheists arevtheir largest constituency, their most reliable workforce for good.

All Satsangis will be dragged, even by Shabd, out of religion and superstition, and through Atheism as a critical stage of their own progress. And in concert, they are where we often find so much compassion.


Hi Um,

I hope all is well with you! An interesting conversation you're having here with Spencer in which you repeat your understanding that "mystics" do not have any interest in making society or the world a better place, an idea you also frequently mentioned on the RSS forum a few years back. My interest in the discussions here wanes, but I found this particular conversation weirdly and profoundly contains and explains almost everything that is wrong with Radhasoami Mat as a viable vehicle for spiritual growth, and what real "liberation" actually feels like as opposed to holding a complex of concepts and beliefs such as RS Mat. I think it's worth unpacking precisely why, if you don't mind.

Firstly it's worth mentioning what appear to be two fundamental facts to your position: 1) You repeatedly mention you are not a "mystic" yourself and have had no personal, direct realisation of the states of consciousness they refer to & 2) Although claiming to make an argument about the real teachings & behaviours of so called "mystics", you appear to actually be referring more specifically to Charan Singh and his well known emphasis on "mystics" not coming here to change "iron chains" for "gold chains", but to free us from chains altogether.

There is just so much to unpack here....where to begin!?

Let's begin with this; As there is nothing at all to indicate Charan himself was a "mystic" in any meaningful sense of the term, it brings into serious question the validity of any of his comments about "mysticism". Being nice and humble, the chosen grandson of a previous alleged "mystic", having a lovely looking turban and white beard and a nice smile does NOT make one a "mystic". There appear to be millions of people out there who do not understand this, who conflate the theatre of guru-dom with real life mysticism. Read Legacy of Love, which Charan, nice & humble non-mystic that he was, pushed through for publication before he passed away. Read it as a confession of a non-mystic upon whom millions of religious followers projected hyper-inflated mystique ("I feel that I am like a stone idol in a temple. According to their notions of love, some bathe it with cold water, some with hot water, and some deck it in fine clothes, but it is still an idol all the same.").

So Um, you as an admitted non-mystic are quoting the highly selective religious teachings of another more or less admitted non-mystic to generalise about "mystics" since time immemorial. I suggest that is not a very good basis for genuine insight and understanding?

Look, it's easy to understand. Charan is parroting an ancient gnostic doctrine, and you are parroting Charan. Rather than merely repeating these doctrines, let's examine them and their implications more deeply. First of all, it's worth noting that not all ancient dualistic gnostic doctrines are/were world-denying, demiurge-infused, focused on the negative in the world, desperate for "escape" etc. One could write multiple volumes on the historic socio-cultural context for these beliefs and all the variations, and how they relate and conflate with other more life-affirming (read ecstatic) "mystical" schools of thought. But what is obvious is that by no means at all are all "mystical cosmologies" dualistic, life-negating, "escape from reincarnation" based etc. Radhasoami doctrine was heavily influenced by Anurag Sagar (almost certainly not authored by Kabir, despite RS claims) as evidenced in numerous quotes and anecdotes going back to Soamiji, Jaimal and Sawan. Anurag Sagar is, in my opinion, a deeply backward, rambling, incoherent and absurd view of reality, pure childish fantasy. It is also deeply life negating, a throw back to some schools of ancient gnostic mysticism. That along with the elements of a slightly less bizarre & extreme gnostic cosmology of the bhaktas in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib helped form the doctrinaire position within RS dogma that we are here to "escape" "chaurasi", not exchange gold chains for iron chains, which Charan parrots in his satsangs, and then you parrot here.

It is an easy to understand position (I myself believed this for years), most especially understood by those who have not "realised" anything directly, but are instead believing in stories and fairy-tales, the appeal to the intellect (which is dualistic, of course :) and emotions.

This is where, for me, it gets interesting. This whole story of being a "soul" "trapped" in "chaurasi" within an "ego" and the whole purpose of life and creation being to "escape" it to some eternal "sach khand" is an oxymoron and deeply incoherent, because not only does that not only explain nothing about the "purpose" of creation. but because it is so profoundly ego-centric, a story about reality that centres entirely around this personal ego which is supposed to be a fiction (maya). We should not be surprised if a story based around a fiction turns out to be a fiction, too.

"Sach Khand" is where fictions cease. There is no longer a story, but only truth. And the indisputable truth is, creation, existence and consciousness is here, now. Once the so called "ego" of RS disappears, what remains and where do "we" go?

I contend that the deepest mystical experiences are not a conceptual and visionary fairytale where this existence is a negative, dreary, miserable "foreign land" where our "souls" are trapped and from where we must escape the clutches of kal to get to some far removed heaven of eternal bliss whilst all the other "souls" we no longer care about as we're so spiritually advanced remain in perpetual suffering.....

I contend, rather, that the deepest mystical experiences as described by real mystics in the first person, is an experience that nothing BUT the "Divine" exists, and that perceptions like "ego", individuality, souls etc is merely a game of Divine Forgetfulness, the masking and unmasking of ONE indivisible consciousness. The experience, if deep and persistent enough, radically alters their perception of reality and how they interact with it. Fear of death vanishes, the idea of "escape" becomes utterly absurd.....because for a true bhakta or "mystic", where is there to go to escape the "Divine"? Only an "ego" and it's delusions could imagine such a scenario! Nowhere to go, nothing to do, no reward or "regions" wanted or expected, no striving for "escape" from some mind-created hell. True "submission to the divine will" it is to give up all desire for "sach khand" or "liberation", that is true humility, true devotion.

And the point is, this direct insight of the deepest mystical experience is reflected in the lives of many mystics and mystical schools of thought. In mahayana buddhism it is reflected as the glorious bodhisatva vow, where one makes the vow not to attain Nirvana until all sentient beings have attained it. I say this because this level of compassion is a reflection of the understanding that, ultimately, we are all connected, and in a universe that is ultimately fashioned from and an expression of a Oneness we call "God". In the Oneness of Sat Purush, there is no sitting aloof in "Sach Khand" in perpetual bliss whilst unfortunate souls are suffering down here in Kal's domain. That is a fiction or fantasy of the individuated ego that has no experience of what it speaks. Instead, Sat Purush literally IS all the "souls" suffering, as well as enjoying, this vast, incomprehensible and mind-blowing creation. Only an ego can imagine a God and a Heaven where they sit in eternal bliss and ecstasy, like some sort of perpetual orgasm, whilst apparently separate souls are suffering far, far away......This is a belief that belies very, very little actual experience of the deeper states of mystical experience and ecstasy, which is a more imminent and pervasive ecstasy not conditioned by the contents of consciousness (meditative ecstasy for eg), but by the very taste and texture of consciousness itself which pervades every moment, from hell to sach khand, from deep suffering, pain and grief to overflowing love, ecstasy and joy.

Such a direct experiential realisation, as has been had by countless people, "mystics", throughout history, radically changes one's perception of reality, values, behaviour, way of life etc, especially depending on the depth and persistence of the realisation. Contrary to your claims, I suggest many mystics have been extremely vocal about notions such as compassion, love, charity, forgiveness etc, and that many of them were "social justice warriors" to the extent they were persecuted, imprisoned and even killed by the authorities of their times. If you're not seeing that, then I suggest a reread of the history of the world's mystics is in order, but this time without Charan's RS anti-world tinted glasses.

We now live in a time where the mindless devotees of modern corrupt "Babas" who have extremely rich, powerful and corrupt politician friends, who are caught amassing obscene wealth fraudulently, committing acts of thuggery, death threats etc, compare them to the real "mystics" of the past. This is to miss the obvious. These real "mystics" were almost always very poor, relatively unknown anti-authoritarian people who spoke out against the abuses and injustices of their kings and priestly rulers, and who were often persecuted for it sometimes to the point of death. This is not the same as leaders of large global religions with huge influence which are openly wooed by numerous interest groups, politicians, orgs etc, who are friends with a whole host of rich and powerful people and politicians, who are then "persecuted" for billion dollar fraud, death threats etc. To conflate these two entirely different types of people is really to miss the point.

The mystical experience is, essentially, an experience of the unity of all things. Love and compassion it's natural fruit, as an expression of that understanding of the unity of all things. Experience and values are radically altered to that of the "normal" world and people. The deeper and more persistent the experience, the more likely it is that the "mystic" will reflect values such as love, compassion, charity, forgiveness. For great mystics such as Jesus or Nanak, it is precisely these values and indeed overt teachings about social justice that caused them to be persecuted. Their greatest emphasis on a spiritual practice wasn't, as RS claims, "shabd yoga", but actually love, compassion, charity to the degree it appears unreasonable & taboo to societal rules. And that is probably why we even know of their names today. When you look at these mystics through the distorted lens of RS dogma, it may seem otherwise

So, whilst immature wannabe mystics are plotting and scheming their "escape" from this "chaurasi" hell-hole, selfishly, or more correctly ego-centrically, paying no concern to the infinite other "souls" who weren't smart enough to recognise and get initiated by the correct Baba Criminal, the real mystics acquiesce to reality, humbly accept their fate/destiny, realise we are all connected, overflow with love and compassion for those still under the delusion of separation and individuality (which is the root cause of all suffering), and try and make the world a better, more loving, accepting and compassionate place with every one of their acts however small or large it may be, spontaneously, even if it results in their death they do not give up on their values or being vocal about it. They are not here to make people "escape" because they see no jail and no imprisoner, they see only the Divine. And in so doing, they partake of the real mystical experience.

Things are complicated when SOME (we are talking about one particular subset of Indian mysticism that emphasises this dualistic gnostic doctrine, and it is noteworthy it's height was during the most chaotic and brutal of times in India's known history, from the 15th to 18th centuries) of these mystics do talk in terms of "imprisonment", "kal", "escape from chaurasi" etc. That is essentially the theological socio-cultural context in which the Granth Sahib is grounded, but if one reads the Jap Ji of Guru Nanak closely for eg., one is struck at how profoundly non-dual it's message is, and does not accord with the dualistic "escape" paradigm of Radhasoami. So, it is a difficult act of discernment to understand what is context (gnostic paradigm as backdrop to all experiences) and what is content (Nanak's non-dual vision as recounted in Jap Ji, where there clearly is no "path" to the path-less Divine). The same contradiction/confusion arises for example where in one single solitary verse Nanak criticises the calculated, linear path of breath control of the yogis, despite it being obvious and in numerous other verses that he and his contemporaries gave breath control high prominence as a spiritual practice, or where he criticises those who make a doctrine out of not eating meat, even though he was probably vegetarian/vegan himself. His teachings, like that of other mystics, are subtle and hard to understand for most people who see only in black and white, linear and absolute terms, who think stories and concepts are reality the itself.

Regardless, from Nanak's first proclamation after attaining his "Sach Khand"; "there is no hindu, there is no muslim", to his countless pleas for social justice for women, the poor etc, to his imprisonment for criticising a ruler for his unjust treatment of the people, it is clear even Nanak who was deeply embedded in a life-negating gnostic paradigm, placed huge, perhaps even supreme importance on social issues as part of a spiritual life.

What to say of all the countless mystics from other traditions that have no connection to the negative, dualistic gnostic myth of imprisonment and escape, that from the get go are based on a non-dual world-view and the deep ecstasy, love, joy, awe and astonishment inherent in existence?

Kashmiri Shaivism is one such paradigm where existence & embodiment is considered an astonishing joy and privilege to have, the whole world a ecstatic outpouring and expression of the Divine. And shabd yoga evolved out of this school of thought. Unfortunately, imo, evolving out from that school, during the bloody days of medieval Indian history, shabd yoga then became associated, instead, with the dualistic life-negating theology of some ancient gnostic schools. This culminates in the deeply absurd, childish, silly, uneducated, unsophisticated, of dubious authenticity etc etc Anurag Sagar. This culminates in millions of followers worldwide who believe this story as being literally true, rather than a useful or not so useful (hint, it's the latter in the 21st century! :) metaphor.

Annnyway, I've rambled on quite a bit there. I just found the discussion interesting and contains in one question all that is mistaken and misguided by RS and it's followers regarding "mysticism".

RS today is a religion, RS theology is dogma, Charan wasn't a mystic, or at least not one of any significant depth or note, and that is according to his own testimony let alone the fact that there is literally no other reason to consider he was a mystic other than the fact he has that position within a well known worldly organisation, RS theology is not the summum bonum of "mystical theology", but actually one of the most incoherent and unsophisticated of theologies, not all mysticism is "life negating" or an attempt to escape life and existence and indeed the vast majority of non-religious or non-organised and non-structured "mystic" (ie. non fiction based) experiences throughout history have been of the utter perfection of all creation, how "God" or One Consciousness pervades ALL that creation, of ecstasy, joy, awe, astonishment IN existence, and this results in spontaneous love, compassion, charity etc, which results in what could be considered a perpetual sense of social responsibility, which inevitably results in spontaneous acts of genuine, real "seva" towards humanity (not to be confused with pretend, mock "seva", usually done to benefit pakhand Babas and their family dynasties), even if such acts result in "negative" consequences for the "mystic". They don't care, they live in a different reality with different values. Death and imprisonment, destitution and poverty do not worry or concern them like it does most people, some of whom would even betray everything and everyone that matters to them if they could make a few dollars........

The real mystic must be considered a mad-person, there is no other way for the worldly person to understand their behaviour, their motives. The currency of a mystic is love and compassion, the currency of a worldly man is the dollar or rupee. The mystic will gladly go to jail or even the executioner for even the smallest and most insignificant expression of love and compassion. Perhaps for telling the kings and priestly class they are cruel, unjust and greedy hypocrites. They don't care and they have no fear. The worldly man will gladly RISK going to jail or the executioner for money, but once they are caught they become frightened, because they realise their money will not go with them, either to the jail cell or to the grave. The mystic doesn't have this problem, because their joy in their love and compassion only increases when they're persecuted for it.

In today's world where the greediest of people pretend to be the greatest of mystics, it is worth trying to remember not to confuse the two, otherwise we may end up with confused discussions like we have here, where non-mystics and religious leaders apparently speak for the mystics.

@ Spence,
See … that makes sense.

Being in your situation and with the same inner disposition I would act the same way.
The things you have stressed here are both your duties professional and private and you fulfill them both with heart.

There must be a reason that you have to live this life this way but it cannot be generalised.

Reading and writing here and talking to brothers and sisters you must have come across also kind of opposite, people who have never had any feeling that the master is with them even after 10, 20, or more years of being involved.

Yes there is joy in looking after people who are in need as longs as one is not overwhelmed by emotions of all concerned and one can handle what lays before one. This I too know by experience.

Hi Manjit
Thank you so much for the detailed exposition. It actually has helped me understand about the dualistic view. I can't criticize those who were brought up to leave this horrible world. Maybe it really is horrible for them. I turn to Master all the time, so yes there are difficulties. But in retrospect, it is always a matter of my own limitations, and the solution, submitting to reality and that higher power within. And then the entire world is bliss. Instantly.

The higher regions are there, but they are also here. They are aspects of the same creation. Anyway, what you wrote helped me understand these two different ways of thinking about spirituality. I think you can see from my earlier comments that I was entirely confused and even a little horrified by what Um, Jen, Guru Inc and others had written. But your essay helps me to understand. Both views arise in what we call spirituality and both have their traditions.

Thank you Sensei

Hi Um
Thank you for your comments
You wrote
"Yes there is joy in looking after people who are in need as longs as one is not overwhelmed by emotions of all concerned and one can handle what lays before one. This I too know by experience."

It is fair to say that I have always been in love with my son, and that, apart from meditation, to be with him is sheer joy.

Many parents feel that way about their kids. When we are together dressing up for cos play, our going to a comic con or watching anime, or just taking a walk, Master is right there. And the three of us are having a ball.

So unfortunately, I am overwhelmed by emotion all the time.

And when I see someone on the street in rags, I almost cannot function. My difficulty is in passing by. But I know that I must be there and cannot pass by unless I have acknowledged and helped. Because that is Master right there.

So, you may consider these things limitations. They most certainly are. But Master watches over me. I'm His. He is OK with my having this nature.

My son and I do not have to function proficiently in all things. We can just be in that bliss of Master's presence, which is the personification of the principle of love that gives life to all of us each and every moment.

@Manjit

>> …… but I found this particular conversation weirdly and profoundly contains and explains almost everything that is wrong with Radhasoami Mat as a viable vehicle for spiritual growth, and what real "liberation" actually feels like as opposed to holding a complex of concepts and beliefs such as RS Mat.<<

If one accepts an hypothesis in science one never knows beforehand what is correct or not. Faith is a kind of hypothesis. Although I came to understand many things over the years and an the good time I had with others, i never was able to verify the concepts of Sant Mat as far as the inner world is concerned.

Coming to terms with that inability to prove for myself the truth I accept of sant mat, there are many ways o go. I came to stop asking questions about the teachings and started to investigate my own motivations i.r.t the teachings and teacher and also asking myself what makes people interested in what they call the divine, how religions were created and the role of inner experiences in it and not to forget the humanbody and the brain.

In these endeavours i made some progress but it was by far not enough to close the book an i wonder if I would be succesfull before my last breath.

So I cannot say you are right or wrong in what you wrote

@ Spence

>>So, you may consider these things limitations. They most certainly are. But Master watches over me. I'm His. He is OK with my having this nature. <<

I have no comments or judgements on your way of life and as I wrote different times in the last weeks, I suppose that I would act the same way as you do if I had them.

It is your reality that the Master is watching over you. As I have written before i doesn't mean there is a master watching over you.

Mine reality is that I never had such an experience, but that too doesn't mean there is not a master watching over me.

Hi Um
Sam always loved to draw. When he was about six, he was in the dining area and I in the kitchen. It was an open concept room and he could see me from the corner we had set up with a rug, cushions and his favorite books. He drew as I cooked. As I served the meal I asked him to show me what he was drawing. It was a cartoonist picture of me cooking, with Baba Ji standing behind me, a little higher up, turban and sarcastic smile on his face, smiling at Sam, his head tilted towards me as if too say, "Look at this guy, what a nerd." There has been few times I got as much out of being the butt of a joke.

I asked Sam who it was and he said "It's your Master."

But of course Maharaji is my Master, whose picture I have in various rooms. I asked Sam where did he get the picture of Baba Ji?

"Dad, he was standing behind you."

So He reminds me even when I forget. The message to me was clear. Whatever difficulties Sam has faced, and would face, Baba Ji is right here.

I didn't see Him in the flesh miraculously that day.

Sam did. And it was business as usual for them.

If I had the choice. If it was going to be me or Sam alone who saw Baba Ji standing there, I would have chosen Sam. And it has turned out to be crucial in painful times that have followed, that Sam could, and has, turned to Baba Ji.

There were so many crushing events, from Sam's own disabilities and health issues to his mom's mental health issues, in and out of Behavioral health facilities to get her meds balanced.

There were no casual miracles. These were His gifts for our survival here. Baba Ji raised my son.

Once these events take place, one after the other, we are permanently, irrevocably changed. Treated with that level of compassion? We become compassionate towards everyone we can. Outside of our practice, our devotion, nothing is more important than compassion. We have needed it to survive. He gave it without being asked. So we are permanently changed.

But not everyone is meant for every role, or faces similar things where nothing can be done.

Some are meant to believe they are self - made. That they have solved every problem on their own. That they have power. That option was never there for me.and now the thought of that is distasteful and repulsive.

I could only help hold the rope in thanks while someone else pulled Sam and I out.


So, whilst immature wannabe mystics are plotting and scheming their "escape" from this "chaurasi" hell-hole, selfishly, or more correctly ego-centrically, paying no concern to the infinite other "souls" who weren't smart enough to recognise and get initiated by the correct Baba Criminal, the real mystics acquiesce to reality....

Thank you for a thoughtful critique. I agree there's a certain
escapism in that "plotting and scheming" by wannabe's.
A sense of being the special chosen ones.

But I think a certain ego-centrism is essential. Our natural
instinct is to help or, and at the same time, to analyze, to
snappily judge, then to overreach and entangle to such an
extent with others' plights that inevitably you both drown in
the "rescue".

The escapism isn't so much to run away and live in some
golden land in Sach Khand but to conserve our priceless
attention, to mindfully watch the 24x7 thought stream and
disentangle ourselves from its dominance. Then you are
not carried away by weaknesses or at least not to the
same devastating extent.

First do no harm. To yourself or others. Then you may be able
to really effectively help someone. Awareness sets you free.



@Manjit. >. There is just so much to unpack here....

Hi, . . only pack the Pack with HIS Love
U can't unpack!

And speaking about mystics
Do you think you will have another chance, . . Meet a second mystic
who has the 5 packages for U Sir
and only behind and after the Crown You know
if HE wa the right one

Start to be happy today
You don't need analysing. . . not a iota


777
I am in The 7th, . . . God in France

Hi Um
You write
"It is your reality that the Master is watching over you. As I have written before i doesn't mean there is a master watching over you."

Yes, actually it does mean there is a Master watching over me. I verify that often, including in meditation. But that is all in my own brain, no where else. Except that my brain is a part of this creation. It has its own model of the galaxy, stars, planets and beings. They are not imaginary. But they are places within the brain. One day neuroscience will learn more about that.

The brain projects symbols from both internal and external stimuli. A dream is the brain functioning symbolically from memory and impressions, emotions, at its lowest levels. Those creations aren't always very accurate.

It doesn't create those at random, however. These are made from source Materials which are very real.

These dreams reflect physical and psychological efforts to deal with impressions from the past and present.

In waking life the brain also creates images. It has a higher accuracy. Generally it is most accurate when we are aware of more of what is going on.

When you look around you and see corners and edges that look straight, you are looking at an invented image in your brain, not the world as it is, and not even as your eyes see it (which is actually upside down and curved). When you take a picture and are shocked that the picture did not capture the full range of details, of light and dark, which you see, you are looking at the scene rebuilt moment by moment by your brain. It color corrects every picture it takes and they all appear to you as perfectly exposed. They aren't. The brain adjusts what you see.

My Master is the one my brain projects. Just as my brain projects an image of me and everyone I know. Just as all the people in your life are refreshed and recreated in your own brain.

The brain uses information, and we don't fully understand where it all comes from and how it constructs the symbolic world we live in. Because, actually, we live in that brain, not in this physical world.

My beloved Master may have little to do with the physical Master, or He may be the real being behind both. The physical Master may just be His puppet. But it hardly matters. My Master is the one I must answer to, and who has showered compassion all along.

His presence is much more constant than even my own.

When you serve others you aren’t doing it for God, you’re doing it to God. Every time GSD answers a questioner he is actually speaking to God—to the the God within that person so it’s important to be very careful in those kinds of situations.

God is love and love is God. If you can’t feel love then all of your inner wandering dare of no use. Besides astral travel is child’s play. Like GSD said, “What’s so difficult about sitting for 2.5 hours a day. The answer is “nothing”. What’s difficult is trying to treat each person you meet, each person in front of you with love, compassion and understanding. That’s what really matters. Travel the the moon and back or to Heaven and back... so what if it doesn’t make you a more loving person. Quite honestly, if it doesn’t make you kinder and more loving then you definitely haven’t been to heaven or anywhere worth traveling to.

And I say this knowing that it’s a big challenge for me... I’m trying not to get so impatient and to be less selfish and do more for those around me. Little by little. Every step counts. Every smile, every word of encouragement, every gift is a gift directly to God.

Heaven and back, heaven and back, heaven and back... it’s like cleaning your house and then messing it up again over and over. I’ve never understood.

@ Spence

I don't know if what you described has always been there for you and with you. Whether it was the outcome of effort or just a gift as is usual with mystics.

Edgard Tolle, writes books for people about his situation and what they can do to get into the same but my problem with his writings and other mystics is that he himself never walked that path that he advises his readers … as it was a gift.

In that writing is little compassion for the empty handed. It is like discussing all the different delicious dishes of an diner with an pauper telling him he can enjoy the same if he only would work harder, had more love, more compassion etc. …. or …. within the religious context.... why are you not more receptive, have more faith, blieve is a gift etc etc.

Thank you for sharing these private insights … if it would make sense, I would add … and I do hope for you that it will stay with you untill the very last moment


Hi Um
Yet it is as you say. I was pulled through the regions at a very young age, and regularly. I found high school very challenging, and when I came home after school I would lie down and listen to the beautiful shabd for an hour or two, and then I could carry on.

I don't consider it a blessing. It is just a condition. Maybe a curse. It certainly kept me from too much excess. There are so many explanations, but they are all culture bound. Given my limitations, it has proven necessary for survival. It could just be something in the gene pool of humanity as a survival function for some who have other limitations.

@ Spence

What I don't undertand is that you write here …. having these experiences.

Manjit’s recent post provides some great food for thought, particularly for those starting to question their relationship with RSSB.
I believe his version of events in the evolution of Sant Mat is as likely as any and an important alternative analysis for folk who traditionally followed (like many of us) the standard RSSB story.
That Sant Mat evolved out of Kashmir Shaivism is also plausible given the emphasis the latter has on the ‘vibrational nature’ of awareness/consciousness. Such a perspective could also offer argument that Sant Mat in it’s earlier form had a non-dual focus, and only in more recent time has this ‘faith’ taken on what Manjit calls a ‘demiurge infused, world-denying, escape-based’ focus.
I guess a few others who have studied the history of Sant Mat such as David Lane could support or refute Manjit’s claims, be interesting to see, though such debate has probably been thrashed out elsewhere and even here in the past. I can’t recall it however, and it could prove helpful to folk who are trying to reassess how and where they now stand.
I had a bit of a reaction to Manjit’s comments in regard to Charan: his parroting of the teachings and weather or not he was a real mystic. From my memory of previous posts, Manjit is not initiated by Charan and did not meet him? All I can say is that it was pretty good hanging out with him. Pretty cool as masters go imo.
Which brings me to something ‘um’ said a while back in regard to reasons why we (generally speaking) got initiated, what we understand by ‘master’ and why we chose RSSB and not other so-called paths. At the time (1981), I came to the conclusion that the Sant Mat path as per RSSB had the highest so-called ‘reach’ - this was after an intense search. What then clinched it for me was another so-called guru’s answer to a question I'd asked, he replied ‘there are 7 Perfect Masters in the world, Charan Singh is one of them’.
So it’s interesting to observe and assess where we now find ourselves. One wonders about these paradoxes that still rankle so-called former followers as well as those whose adherence to dogma is being shaken-up:
That a ‘perfect master’ appointed a successor who certainly seems to be behaving not how a new ‘perfect master’ is supposed to behave.
That this master lives in luxury while promulgating teachings based around living a life of low-impact simplicity and honesty
That this guru is involved in a large-scale complex interplay of financial dealings that many consider to involve fraud.
That this guru continues to publish a swag of old teachings/concepts based around such things as spiritual hierarchies, reincarnation, negative/positive powers and the soul’s separation. Yet in certain circumstances he says there is only Oneness and that the ‘soul is the truth’.

This stuff if looked at critically has to help folk wake-up and better utilise both heart and head in trying to get some balance and find out the truth of things. I think approaches such as Kashmir Shaivism as pointed out by Manjit are both more integrated and inclusive in spite of being held within their own 1000+ yr old tradition. I think Sonia’s recent points about the need for more of the feminine is relevant.
It would be good if ‘essay’s’ such as this latest from Manjit could make their way to places like the RSSB website, thus indicating they are open to informed critical comment. After all didn’t Charan Singh often say critics are our best friends? (or something to this affect).

Hi Um
You ask
"What I don't undertand is that you write here …. having these experiences."

What was all that I wrote about compassion? Did it just fly by overhead?

Think about it.

I can chew gum and walk at the same time. Yay for me.

Besides, don't you think Santa Clause must love toys. He must be nearly obsessed with children and toys. Why? What need does he have for more toys?

Let me put this another way. You who have had, by your claim, no experiences at all, why then are you here? Why do you spend two minutes thinking about RSSB, pro or con?

Actually that's a more interesting subject to me. What are your thoughts?

@ Spence,

Whatever I had to say I did, realising now that if I had understood earlier that you had these inner experiences more or less as an daily compagnion, I would never have reacted to anything you wrote.

What you wrote in terms of going out into the world to do good, is no part of the teachings of Sant Mat, but those who have reach the end of these teachings cannot but act as you do.

You have ended up being assimilated in your game of sant mat … it makes no sense puting before you what goes on in my mind. Don't mistake what I write here!!

His succesor, starting out his mission, would say that people should stand shoulder by shoulder.
These types of expressions are transportable to any situation and human activity in order to be true. So only if people share the same object, same point of view, the can discuss and exchange thoughts. If that shared object or focus is not there, they are forced to "see" one another in the face with all consequences.

You and I don't share the same world.

And if it helps what sense would make for Carlos Castaneda to advise normal people to act in ways that are born from and related to the second attention.

Don't forget that English is not my mother tongue

@ Tim Rimmer

Wait a moment.....

>>After all didn’t Charan Singh often say critics are our best friends? (or something to this affect).<<

Yessss … he said so but to whom and why??

He said that to people who were critisized …. and not as an justification for critisizing others and especially not people that are seen as spiritual teachers he warned against that in terms of exchange of karma

um asks Spence: "What I don't understand is that you write here …. having these experiences."

I find it very strange that people avoid one of the most important spiritual rules which is about talking about one's own inner spiritual experiences. Its like giving away one's most precious gift.

Inner experiences: Spiritual Gems:
Para 155: (3) Take care not to disclose to anyone whatever you may see within yourself. The reason is that, in the first place, telling it to other people produces vanity in us; secondly, it is absurd to disclose such secrets to those who cannot value them.

Para 168: It is not advisable to speak of one's internal experiences to anyone except the Master, and it is positively harmful to speak of them to those who are less developed spiritually than oneself. In revealing secrets there is the risk of the element of pride coming in, which hinders progress. Strength lies in keeping the secret locked, not in giving it out. Others may benefit, but he who is giving out is the loser.

What occurs to me is that an ex-satsangi talking about inner experiences could be very much under the negative power, Kal's influence. Also, its very much about the Ego.

Well, we’ll... just getting caught up...

@Spence
You have a heart of gold. :)

@Majnit
Obviously there’s a lot about your essay I could comment on, but I’ll just say this part is really cool; “Love and compassion it's natural fruit, as an expression of that understanding of the unity of all things.“

@Tim
Regarding, “That this guru continues to publish a swag of old teachings/concepts based around such things as spiritual hierarchies, reincarnation, negative/positive powers and the soul’s separation. Yet in certain circumstances he says there is only Oneness and that the ‘soul is the truth’.”

Yessssss!!! I agree completely with “there is only Oneness and that the ‘soul is the truth’.” But the old teachings are unenlightened.

@Gurus Inc
Leave it to India to create a caste system in Heaven. Must be cultural—the concept of past life karma is great for justifying one’s sense of superiority. And the flip side—blaming everything on your “karma” (self pity and powerlessness) Total BS. What’s even more BS is the idea that we need a “perfect master” or that such a thing even exists. We don’t need a Master. We only need God. And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls. So bizarre... so truly bizarre. The idea that a loving God appointed a “Kal” type entity to do his dirty work is absurd.


We don’t need a Master. We only need God. And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.

Posted by: Sonia | December 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM


We are sure God conveyed this to you.

Hi Jen
You asked
"I find it very strange that people avoid one of the most important spiritual rules which is about talking about one's own inner spiritual experiences. Its like giving away one's most precious gift."

Spiritual rules?
If sharing my experiences reduces them to biochemistry, physiological experience, and makes them a normal genetic variation among some human beings, that's a good thing.

The only danger of losing anything is putting up with the nasties from folks who just can't accept me for who I am. So then it's all good because it becomes a discussion about compassion.

That's the whole discussion. What does experience mean if it doesn't raise a person's compassion for their brothers and sisters?

I suspect that any experience that gives you a different, broader perspective, travel in this physical world to different places, meeting different peoples and cultures in this physical world, not just within, accomplishes much the same broadening, enlightening, accepting and helping others effect.

One more point, Jen
You wrote
"What occurs to me is that an ex-satsangi talking about inner experiences..."

You are mistaken. I'm a Satsangi. Just like Brian Ji and others.

We are all Satsangis. Sat... Truth... Wherever the path leads.

My Master is still every bit my Master. Maharaji and Baba Ji are part of the cellular structure, the very fabric of my everyday life.

Did that not come through in all my comments?

We don’t need a Master. We only need God. And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.
Posted by: Sonia | December 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM

Given that it only works by Love
like here in the physical

me:
WHO. would U love, . . . ever seen God. ?

Second : We, . . . or even thousand Galaxies would vaporise
by coming to near of HER

Third:
If U did it on your own : at arrival You would think : I DID IT
which is an ego explosion, throwing U out immediately

So, Try to love this strange phenomenon
follow th husband
HE can only be loved through somebody already there

I believe U have the Package, . . pls Use it


777


BTW. somebody wrote Seth Shiv Dayal said
A few Sants go higher than the 5th region
Haha
It is no competition
Each Saint goes where His Heartt is and so go we!

And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod

How do U know

After all, these strange trillions of creations in zillions of 'times'
perhaps HE wants something else now. Sonia.
I would!

777

@ 777.

Nice words. Hope you are well?

We are sure God conveyed this to you.

Posted by: Gurus Inc | December 10, 2019 at 06:38 AM

No, it was Gurinder who told me. He said there isn’t a Kal—it’s just a concept.

With gurus like Gurinder who needs enemies.

I know I said I didn’t have anymore hard feelings but I think they all just came back to me now.

Sonia wrote:
to punish souls. So bizarre... so truly bizarre. The idea that a loving God appointed a “Kal” type entity to do his dirty work is absurd.

If you translate "kal" by
supercomputer One Bi Qubits / book-keeper

why is that so strange?

Also YOU minus ego . . are the God who did all this "stupidness"
So you know where to go with complaints . . inside Sister

But you don't believe that Life is Fair ? anymore

Gurinder is the last chance. Sister, . . almost

The really last one will be a girl in Nepal but I described this already here

777

Spence, the quotes I used in my previous comment were taken from the book "Spiritual Gems", the letters written by Huzur Maharaj Baba Sawan Singh Ji (the Great Master) in response to the questions and queries of his American and European disciples and seekers.

Your reply: "Spiritual rules? If sharing my experiences reduces them to biochemistry, physiological experience, and makes them a normal genetic variation among some human beings, that's a good thing."

You say: "My Master is still every bit my Master. Maharaji and Baba Ji are part of the cellular structure, the very fabric of my everyday life.
Did that not come through in all my comments?"

Now I wonder more than ever if you have ever been a RSSB satsangi because not talking about our inner spiritual experiences is one of the major rules in Sant Mat and even if you are an ex-satsangi you don't even seem to have that understanding.

777 what do you mean by
Gurinder is the last chance. Sister, . . almost

The really last one will be a girl in Nepal but I described this already here

Can you explain further?


And God doesn’t appoint some wacky demigod to punish souls.

Makes sense. The "wacky demigod" is our own mind. What more
perfect form of torture is needed...

"We have met the enemy and he is us." --W. Kelly

Hi Jen
The world would never know about internal experiences if that advice were universal. The advice of the Masters is good advice, but it's not a vow. And there is a reason why it's not a vow.

It is only good advice for those who are trying to achieve something, because there is ego.

And good advice to help protect those who haven't achieved anything, to help them avoid becoming jealous.

But there is nothing to be jealous of. It's not an accomplishment. So there is no basis for ego. The teachings that deify these experiences are wrong. No one earns them. No one creates them. No one builds them.

They are just there in some of us, like brown hair and good vision. Or being born in Montana instead of Germany. Luck of the draw. Or course, depending on how you view it. But in all instances, be happy with what God gave you. That's always a good lesson we learn over and over again


To me spiritual progress is reflected in how high your point of view is, your capacity for universal love and brotherhood. Then you would realize there is nothing, zero, zip, different between you and I. We are the same.

Human genes are 99% identical to African apes and Gorillas. Our differences are paper thin.

But Jen, you can do something about compassion. It's fully in your hands.

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