I live in the United States. Misguided religious people call it a Christian nation. They're wrong. Likewise, misguided religious people in India call it a Hindu nation. They're also wrong.
I got to thinking about religious nationalism after reading the first part of Arjun Sethi's testimony regarding Jammu, Kashmir, and minority rights in India. Maybe Sethi is exaggerating how bad things are getting in India, but even if what he says is only partly true, that's still really disturbing.
Here's an excerpt from what Sethi wrote.
In 1947, India created a constitutional republic based on the principles of secularism and pluralism. The founders hoped this framework would hold the nation’s rich diversity together and ensure that India would never inflict on others the brutality inflicted on them.
Yet today, Hindu nationalist mobs roam India, targeting Muslims, Dalits and Christians, sometimes forcing them to recite Hindu slogans. Security forces have forced Kashmiris to lick dirt off the road for refusing to utter national mottos.
Hindu nationalism isn’t new to India, but it is on the rise. It’s rooted in the belief that India is a Hindu nation, and that Hindus, who make up 80% of the population, should enjoy a privileged status and exercise majoritarian rule. This ideology is amplified by the RSS, a male only, volunteer, paramilitary organization. Its earliest leaders referred to Christians and Muslims as “internal threats” and compared India’s Muslims to “Jews in Germany.”
The BJP is the political wing of the RSS, and Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India, its national leader. Modi trained with the RSS at the age of eight, and recently told a crowd of RSS supporters that he was proud to be a member. Amit Shah, Modi’s second in command, has called undocumented Muslim immigrants “termites” and vowed to “throw them in the Bay of Bengal.”
Modi is forging a new India, where non-Hindus are second class subjects with limited rights. India is often called the world’s largest democracy, but democracies only work if people can speak, associate, and protest freely. Democracies only thrive if they safeguard civil liberties and minority rights. Today, India more closely resembles an authoritarian regime than a pluralistic republic.
Nationalism itself is a very limited point of view. In a recent issue of New Scientist, there was an interview with British astronaut Helen Sharman. She said:
When you look down on the Earth, you can't see the political boundaries. Politics means absolutely nothing because you're seeing the natural world. When you're zipping around in low Earth orbit, in 92 minutes you've gone completely around the Earth.
So instead of it being this huge place that you can apparently do anything to that's really robust, it's actually a very tiny place where everything is affecting everything else.
We're all part of the Earth and the Earth is as much part of us as we are of it. I am angered by the fact that we are apparently destroying the very thing that's given us life, as opposed to what we could be doing, which is living symbiotically.
What's crazy is that I'm pretty sure people in every country on Earth consider that their small part of our tiny planet is the very best part. The same holds true for the 50 states in the United States. I've rarely, if ever, seen residents of one state saying "Where I live is horrible."
(I say this as a resident of Oregon -- which obviously is the very best state. Yet somehow people manage to live in North Dakota and like it there, which baffles me.)
Don't get me wrong. I love the United States.
But in no way do I consider it to be the greatest country on Earth, nor do I consider myself to be a nationalist in any sense. The United States has strengths, and it has weaknesses. This country has accomplished some marvelous things. It also has done some horrible things.
The same is true of every other country, including India.
So I don't understand the appeal of nationalism, since it defies logic, facts, and common sense. Nationalism is akin to the extreme fanaticism of fans who consider that their favorite sports team can do no wrong, so if it loses a game the referees must have made bad calls or the other team cheated.
That said, at least nationalists identify with an entire nation. When a modifier is put before "nationalists," as in "religious nationalists" or "white nationalists," something bad becomes even worse, since now one's loyalty isn't to their country, but to just a portion of it.
Recently I had a great conversation with someone who, like me, had come to doubt the religious faith that they'd embraced for many years.
Along with their marriage partner, they're raising their children in a religiously open-minded fashion, trusting that the children will be able to choose which religion, if any, makes sense to them -- as opposed to indoctrinating them into believing that a certain religion is the Only True Way.
I told this person that to me, forcing a child to believe in a certain religion is as bad as forcing a child to accept a certain form of politics.
Wouldn't it seem decidedly weird if a parent read bedtime stories to a seven-year-old about how being a member of a particular political party is the only way to participate in politics? And once a week, that child had to attend meetings where the views of that political party were discussed?
Yet all over the world, people brainwash children into believing that a particular religion is the Only True Way, which is even crazier than brainwashing children into believing that a particular political party is the Only True Way, since there obviously is solid evidence that political parties exist, while there is zero demonstrable evidence that God or anything else supernatural exists.
Hopefully India will evolve from its attraction to Hindu nationalism and realize that it makes no sense in a pluralistic society for a government, or a political party, to embrace a certain religion to the exclusion of others, including, of course, the religious non-belief of atheists.
"I don't understand the appeal of nationalism, since it defies logic, facts, and common sense. "
Lol what? Nationalism is a tool. Is there some sort of method that proves self-protection in groups to be illogical? What fact disproves the benefits, or even just the human right of nationalism?
It works for some things, and has various weaknesses as well. But this can be said of all human systems. Just because nations or races, or families, are imperfect doesn't mean they shouldn't celebrate themselves or act to pursue their own collective interests, and defend themselves against those seeking to undermine their collective interests.
A non-Indian, and non-Hindu telling the indigenous people of their land for over 5000 years that they don't exist as a collective, have no rights to their land, culture or genes, and are stupid for wanting to protect themselves from people who've inflicted terror upon them for 1000 years is like colonialism on crack cocaine.
The British already tried to tell Hindus what you're telling them, and they failed miserably. Not sure neo-colonialism will work any better if it's couched in maxims that barely say more than "we're all the same maaaaaan."
This is why the "Ok Boomer" thing is taking off. The wrongness of an entire generation's political leanings is astounding. It makes me think we should limit voting to people under 50, and even those should take an IQ test and prove to be responsible. But your generation was committing all these tragic mistakes long before you got old. Better yet we just abolish the horror of democracy altogether.
Listen to this Kashmiri woman describe the terror inflicted on Kashmir by the violent conquerors you keep presenting as poor innocent Muslim victims of "nationalism." Somehow without being scary "nationalists" themselves, they still managed to kill and rape thousands and displace hundreds of thousands, if not millions of actual Kashmiris who previously lived in a pluralistic society which is now not allowed by Islam.
Still, no word on that massacre from anyone.
https://youtu.be/AYjER9oauaY
Posted by: Jesse | November 19, 2019 at 08:20 PM
religions are all different in beliefs. comparing christianity to islam or hinduism is like comparing chalk and cheese.
nationalism isn't bad, who said and why? earth might be one but is separated by different climate zones, vegetation zones etc. etc.
Posted by: Q8i | November 19, 2019 at 08:44 PM
Religious intolerance and Nationalistic intolerance is the scourge of humanity. Throughout history.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 19, 2019 at 08:59 PM
As is ethnic (racialized) intolerance
Posted by: Whodunit | November 19, 2019 at 09:00 PM
''Do'nt try to feel one,it's impossible in this stage''
Charan Singhji
In deepest we are'' one''..
Posted by: s* | November 20, 2019 at 02:11 AM
Nationalism is fear weaponized.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 20, 2019 at 05:03 AM
... As is religion... A form of nationalism... My God... My Master, Our Country, Our Dera.
..
Posted by: Spence Tepper | November 20, 2019 at 05:05 AM
Even America is a hindu nation... Don't believe me... read this...... https://www.amazon.com/Hindu-America-Bhavans-book-university/dp/B0007JAY9G
You white Christians are plain killers of pagan hindus.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | November 20, 2019 at 07:05 AM
There is only one God.
But..............
My God is better than your God!!!!!!
My Baba is better than your Baba!!!!!!
Religion is cause of almost all wars.
Posted by: KS | November 20, 2019 at 07:33 AM
Good one Brian! Nationalism allied with populism are what are driving such upheaval over here in the UK. Not wedded to religion over here which is something I guess, but still toxic.
Still love and enjoy our country but under no delusions that we are somehow Great or greater than others. That is just stupid and dumb thinking and causes all sorts of calamities in the world.
good work in calling out this toxic brew Brian.
Posted by: Nick GB | November 20, 2019 at 07:35 AM
The constitution of India has been inspired by western ideals, nothing Hindu in it. You should call it fanaticism. By the same measure, you should call Moslem and Sikh fanaticism by the same name.
Posted by: Vinny | November 20, 2019 at 09:03 AM
"Nationalism allied with populism are what are driving such upheaval over here in the UK"
You don't think Pakistanis shouting "Get out of my country you white bastards!" as they cut off people's arms on the road might be driving the upheaval, you absolute mong? Maybe the thousands of underage girls being raped by foreigners? You think family's of foreigners disrupting trials against child rapists by screaming about 12 year old rape victims "she's a slag!" might have something to do with it? Maybe that the BBC protected child rapists for decades? Any of those things contribute to the upheaval, Nick?
"Nationalism is fear weaponized. "
Cool soundbite, Spence. Super deep, maaaaaaaan.
Posted by: Jesse | November 20, 2019 at 09:21 AM
Reality is not what is being propogated in the article you referring. This article is pure political by left wing and so called secular forces. It is sorry state if you tend to believe such. Nothing bad is happening to minorities in India.
Modi is the best prime minister for India. We Indians are fortunate to witness such great soul leading us.
Posted by: Sharma | November 20, 2019 at 10:22 AM
Hindu dharma is about live and let live.
Hindus are the only ones who never conquered with convert or kill format. In fact hindu dharma says sarve bhavantu sukhinaha. May all be happy.
It is only abrahamics who convert or kill. This anti hindu propaganda is by the four Ms --- missionaries, marxists mullahs and MNCs.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | November 20, 2019 at 11:02 PM
Jesse
Of course you have a valid point I totally get that. There have been real terms abuses from sectors of the community that feel they are invulnerable to being called out because they can play the race card!
I'm not a complete dumbass and unable to see things from both sides.
it does need challenging you are right and yes it is behind some of the unrest. just that when the challenge back is on the level of xenophobia straight and simple then it is not really helping anyone or anything!
There are genuine grievances in our Northern towns and cities I get that! Some minority communities do somehow feel that they can just counter with the 'racism' card when they are called out.
Not sure I have any solutions in mind Jesse, but the warring state in the UK is not very pleasant right now or with an end in sight as I see it.
Posted by: Nick GB | November 21, 2019 at 12:54 AM
“ It is only abrahamics who convert or kill. This anti hindu propaganda is by the four Ms --- missionaries, marxists mullahs and MNCs.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | November 20, 2019 at 11:02 PM”
Me: What about Arjuna, in the Gita story? Isn’t the Gita a Hindu Scriptue?
Jim S.
Posted by: Jim Sutherland | November 21, 2019 at 02:52 AM
different motives
1. arjuna/krishna - preserve dharma, ie kill the 4ms
2. mnc/mullah/missionaries/marxist - loot rape kill wantonly, anti dharmic.
Posted by: Q8i | November 21, 2019 at 06:49 AM
Nick, xenophobia isn't a real thing outside of its pavlovian utility of disarming you. Distrusting outsiders and others is as natural and necessary as eating and sleeping.
Francis Fukuyama was 1000% incorrect. The end of history isn't here. The return of tribalism was forced back onto the west. These people want to kill you, and they're open about it. You can't be nice and polite your way out of it.
Posted by: Jesse | November 21, 2019 at 08:03 AM
Nationalism never brought peace to anyone, get over it it's a crock of BS.
From every marauding megalomaniac monstrosity to the next, all they ever brought was their horrendous mayhem of unsolicited death destruction and oppression in the pursuit of their insane religious and/or ethnic nationalism.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 21, 2019 at 08:37 AM
If forced to convert to Hinduism, I wouldn't mind at all, especially if my ancestors had been forced to convert away from it. It looks so colorful and fun!
Posted by: anami | November 21, 2019 at 08:52 AM
God packed us into different body ' shapes which grow and experience gradually to touch the finishing line later. In between some identity of us into religion , nation, different aligned groups and even as family help the inside selves in pushing thru the age / alloted time slots here.
Its irrelevant for the One if it is good or bad as for Him nothing is bad or worst but an act in a play which has apparently zero value backstage. and thus regressive or progressive for none - therefore no bias.
All is One and none are strangers (incldg Baba Jee) !
Naa ko barry Nahi beganaa ...- Nanak
( none a foe and none stranger... )
Posted by: Meditator | November 21, 2019 at 09:09 AM
https://youtu.be/bFcO-OqI5pc
Posted by: X17 | November 21, 2019 at 09:06 PM
That's how religion influenced nationalism corrupts human life
Brothers killing brothers in the name of their 'religion' or their so called 'Nationalism'.
Same people, different nationality or religious beliefs, killing in the name of their adopted 'country' via human enforcement of boundaries, or in the case of dedication to their adopted 'God'.
As did Arjuna have to face his brethren and his 'karma' so do all those bound by religious affiliates and chains that bind them to their fostered nationalism.
Posted by: Whodunit | November 21, 2019 at 11:36 PM
Jesse
You provide a good countercheck to some of my cod unexamined liberal leftist wishy washy thinking.
I totally see your point and understand tribalism in the context you give.
You are exactly correct in that there are sectors of minority communities that take shelter under liberal democracies whilst at the same time actively wanting to destroy them and the people that inhabit them.
Challenging this ideology back is of course necessary. The left sometimes is woefully inadequate in this debate; I get that!
Still worried about hate on a big scale as it always seems to end up in Gulags, concentration camps and gas chambers.
For what it's worth most of the unrest here in the UK isn't around the settled Asian populations but to the influx of East Europeans.
To anticipate your possible response; yes as many as are family oriented and work their asses off, are equal numbers of imported criminals, sex offenders, freeloaders and so on.
Not offering solutions, but just making point that I am more than able to kick around perspectives and not operate from some fixed leftist posture.
Posted by: Nick GB | November 22, 2019 at 01:38 AM
" I am more than able to kick around perspectives and not operate from some fixed leftist posture."
Well, that's a lot better than most people.
Sadly those commonly referred to as "shitlibs" have already done more than enough in their arrogance to destroy the entire western world and likely kick off ww3. Good job guys!
Posted by: Jesse | November 22, 2019 at 04:49 PM
Arjuna just had property dispute with his cousins. He never converted or killed. Sri Krishna only told him to fight for his rights...... It is absolutely a joke to compare peaceful hindus with convert or kill ABrahamic terrorists. Koran explicitly tells the believers to convert or kill.... so does Bible.... so does the Communist manifesto. All these Capitalists have killed in million just to improve their bottom line. So this anti hindu propaganda does not cut any ice wiht me. Besides, Krishna himself tells Arjuna to follow himself (Swadharma). The last line of Bhagavad Gita clearly says --- Yathichassu Tat kuru (Do as you please). It is not convert or kill.
Sorry for the late reply.... but I had to get the record straight. There is no convert or kill in hindu dharma. HIndu dharma is about swadharma..... being yourself or one self. It is about total acceptance.
Posted by: Deepak Kamat | November 27, 2019 at 09:20 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't realize the depth of violence and irrationality...
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india
Posted by: anami | December 02, 2019 at 08:44 PM
Rana Ayyub is a well known liar, fundamentalist, left winger, radical, who sees nothing wrong with Hindus getting massacred but will yell hoarse if Muslims are not allowed to use cellphones for 5 hours, and will call it a blotch on Human Rights.
India probably is the best country in the world for minorities to live in and thrive.
But yes individuals like Ayyub exist and who are responsible for undermining efforts at promoting social harmony in India.
Kashmiri Pandit holocaust is the darkest spot in post independence India. And there is no denying a section of Indian Muslim's are responsible. A section which resides in Kashmir and which also has no regards for fellow Kashmiri Muslims.
Very well ignorable I would say. But you can believe whatever you want. Afterall for you westerners whatever your press utters is but gospel.
Posted by: A Proud Indian Muslim | December 03, 2019 at 06:41 AM
What I believe is that lies, rape and murder undermine social harmony--East, West, North or South. Don't make karma. Shabadabadia, Bababababa.
Posted by: anami | December 03, 2019 at 09:06 AM
What I believe is that lies, rape and murder undermine social harmony--East, West, North or South. Don't make karma. Shabadabadia, Bababababa.
Posted by: anami | December 03, 2019 at 09:06 AM
Interesting choice of words Mister/Ms
"I'm sorry, I didn't realize the depth of violence and irrationality..."
Good some realisation has dawned on you. Like i said before believe whatever you want. Afterall for you westerners whatever your press utters is but gospel.
Posted by: A Proud Indian Muslim | December 03, 2019 at 09:57 AM
Shabadabadia Babababa is a lyric from a music video Tim Rimmer posted the other day under "Great comment about RSSB truth-telling." A play on Shabd and Baba? And before that "Will the day come when I can see the sun?" Possible references to Sant Mat from a Japanese metal band!
I'll repeat the link.
https://youtu.be/CbI79e5iZKs
Unforgettable! Hats off to Tim Rimmer!
Posted by: anami | December 03, 2019 at 10:34 AM
Religion and Politics never has and never will play together well, like oil and water it seems that they may be able to blend but there always ends up being a separation eventually,
where religion is supposed to be spiritually based and politics are purely material in nature, there is no freedom in politics because there is always a competition going on to gain the upper hand for power,
and even in religion there is a competition about who's God is best and what to believe, it should be illegal to teach anything about politics and religion in schools until college,
unfortunately, parents are a different matter, my parents took me to a very large church in L.A. a few times but never pressed any beliefs upon me,
other members of my family took me to their own sects churches with no coercion, I found it interesting and made my own decisions ultimately,
these political actions under the guise of Religion are giving religion a bad name, once the parties are abolished and there is true religious tolerance there will be a good base to create real civilizations.
Posted by: Lance | July 12, 2020 at 04:51 AM