Singh brothers turn on each other. RSSB guru in middle of the mess.

Today someone emailed me a link to a MSN story about the Singh brothers, Malvinder and Shivinder, and their tangled relationship with their relative, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas in India.
Download Shivinder Singh likens Malvinder Singh to 'Bhasmasur'

Read on for the latest developments in this fascinating drama. It'll be interesting to see what conclusions Indian authorities draw after investigating the complex web of fraudulent financial transactions involving a bunch of individuals, public companies, and shell companies.

I've boldfaced the mentions of Dhillon and RSSB.

Shivinder Singh likens Malvinder Singh to 'Bhasmasur'; Malvinder says his brother's 'sanyas' was fake: NCLT filings


© Amal KS/Hindustan Times via Getty Images

Former Religare promoter Shivinder Singh, in his NCLT filing in July, called his brother Malvinder Singh 'Bhasmasur', a mythological demon, while saying that he was suffering from a personality disorders. He had also sought a "forensic probe" of RHC Holding.

Threatening to sue the younger brother, Malvinder, in his NCLT filing in August, said he deserved the right to sue his brother for making "scurrilous insinuations". He also alleged that Shivinder was trying to take favour from Radha Saomi Satsang Beas (RSSB) because he owed its money.

The hearings in the NCLT case will be held in December.

"MMS (Malvinder Man Singh) has turned out to be the mythological 'Bhasmasur' for the RHC group. Wherever he became head of a business — Ranxbaxy, Fortis, Religare, SRL Labs Ltd — he decimated the value to zero for the RHC group," Shivinder told the NCLT filing.

Notably, both of them are currently in jail as Delhi's Saket court had sent the Singh brothers and 3 others to judicial custody till October 31 in a fund misappropriation case related to Religare Finvest Ltd. The other three accused, former Religare CMD Sunil Godhwani, and former senior executives Kavi Arora and Anil Saxena are also in jail.

In their NCLT filings, both the brothers accused each other of large-scale fraud and corruption. Shivinder sought that Malvinder be removed as the holding company's director while urging NCLT to take over its board. He also asked the court to issue a restraining order against Malvinder from entering the RHC office and even communicating with any of its employees.

Malvinder told in his reply that Shivinder was hurling accusations to seek favours from RSSB as he wished to become its chief. He also alleged that Shivinder filed the suit against him only to stop RHC from demanding its money from Gurinder Singh Dhillon-led RSSB. He said Shivinder had done "large scale diversion of funds from FHL, RHC, REL etc to Dhillon (chief of RSSB) and the entities under his (Dhillon) control".

As per Shivinder's filing, he's a 50 per cent owner of RHC and had an established track record of value creation by building Fortis from scratch into India's second-largest healthcare chain and turning it into one of RHC's most valuable businesses before his retirement in 2015.

"The petitioner no. 2 (Shivinder) is of the firm belief that the continuous destruction of RHC's asset base can be arrested provided the 'Bhasmasur' is dislodged from the helm of affairs of RHC," said Shivinder's petition.

While denying that Shivinder was solely involved in building and running of FHL, Malvinder said: "...the Petitioner number 2 (Shivinder) had been actively involved in all businesses of the group including the Respondent no. 1 (Malvinder)." He said Shivinder was falsely claiming before all the investigating agencies, regulators and courts that he was under 'Sanyas' (asceticism) from the corporate world from January 2016 till late 2017.

Urging the court to punish him for perjury, Malvinder said Shivinder "continued as a director of all companies, listed/unlisted, in the group", and that he continued to draw Rs 43.5 lakh monthly salary from two key subsidiaries of Malvinder's company. He also said during his 'sanyas', Shivinder attended numerous board meets and used to draw all the perquisites from listed and unlisted companies, including all his foreign travels, his cars and household expenses.

He accused Shivinder of protecting Dhillon from debts and "possible investigations and liability towards Daiichi (Sankyo)." The younger brother said Malvinder had sought Rs 1,000 crore from him to cede control of RHC. Demanding status quo on its assets and shareholdings, Shivinder asked the NCLT to appoint two independent directors and change account signatories.

The Singh brothers sold Ranbaxy to Japanese drugmaker Daiichi Sankyo in 2008 for Rs 10,000 crore. In 2013, Daiichi paid $500 as felony charges in the US for selling adulterated medicines, following which it filed an arbitration case against the Singh brothers.

Comments

[Jesse]

Million dollar annual sanyas budget. RSSB does it differently than most orgs.

If that's the standard then I think it's time I renounce the world and join RSSB again.

Don't pay your debts Baba. Give the money to me.

[RSSB is finished]

Saw this link
GSD mocking the people who want their land back

https://youtu.be/5VYmYoCTG8M

Even the followers don’t know why he is so greedy

[Mike England]

Shiv: My Brother is a Demon!
Mal: My Brother is not Ascetic!
SG: Harumph!!

GSD: I owe nobody nothing. Phew, that was close.

[cocky me]

Million dollar annual sanyas budget. RSSB does it differently than most orgs.

If that's the standard then I think it's time I renounce the world and join RSSB again.

Don't pay your debts Baba. Give the money to me.

Posted by: Jesse | October 29, 2019 at 06:18 PM

You had your chance but ensured you got booted out.

Indra - who knows. A wait period of 26,427,587 earth years with 132,091,470 to 1 odds.

All the best Jesse.

[K.Singh]

Bhasmasur- Thousands of years ago Aryans migrated form central Europe to fertile lands of Sapt Sindh (Now india-pakistan) they took on the Dravadian (now Dalit,s) and fought number of wars for supermacy but were unable to defeat Dravadians led by Bhasmasur.In the end they employed trickery and deceit to defeat Dravadians(Bhasmasur).Aryans wrote veda,s and Manusimrti which declared Dravdians untouchables (Dalit,s).Caste system followed defeat of Bhasmasura and his people.History is always written by winners,in this case Aryans ,so they presented the Commander of Dravadians as a demon simply for defending his people from the invading Aryans.

[Saurabh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbVHw-W3GMc

[j]

I don't know if Gurinder is guilty of anything. But I struggle to think of a reason for what Malvinder would have to gain by falsely implicating Gurinder in this way.

The classic believer response to charges that a Guru is guilty are:
1. The person making the charges is lying about the Guru because he wants to be The Guru.
2. The person making the charges is lying because Kal has taken hold of his will.

Cults like Eckankar, MSIA, Iskcon, Siddha Yoga...in fact all religions typically make some version of these counter charges whenever their leader is accused of wrongdoing.

[Jaswant Singh]

A Guru should be a example of perfection and should be away from all materialistic things.So all doubts of people should be removed publically by the Guru himself if he is true to his sect.

[ratan khubchandani]

Nothing can deter the RSSB followers bcos GSD himself is revered in high esteem. Mismanagement or naivety of businesses Errors may be but culpability is none. Guru is clean and we all know it... his relatives may be seeking to make him escape goat.
Ratan k.k
Dubai

[RSSB is finished]

Jaswant
If you think the guru should be away from material things then you are with the wrong guru. The RSSB guru is very much into material things.
Why else would he be doing deals in Crores of rupees.
Even if he likes material things, the point now is why is he engaged in fraud with the Singh brothers. Doing fraud and making death threats is definitely not setting a good example.

[cocky me]

Bhasmasur- Thousands of years ago Aryans migrated form central Europe to fertile lands of Sapt Sindh (Now india-pakistan) they took on the Dravadian (now Dalit,s) and fought number of wars for supermacy but were unable to defeat Dravadians led by Bhasmasur.In the end they employed trickery and deceit to defeat Dravadians(Bhasmasur).Aryans wrote veda,s and Manusimrti which declared Dravdians untouchables (Dalit,s).Caste system followed defeat of Bhasmasura and his people.History is always written by winners,in this case Aryans ,so they presented the Commander of Dravadians as a demon simply for defending his people from the invading Aryans.
Posted by: K.Singh | October 30, 2019 at 06:46 AM

What an amazing read.

Could you add the bibliography so that one can deep dive into the following key assertions made by you

- bhasmasur : a dravadian leader
- dravadians : now Dalits
- Vedas : written by Aryans
- manusmrti: responsible for caste system in India

[Georgy Porgy]

Ask yourself who is the common denominator trying to land his own bro in the shit and the guru?

Desperate drowning man - Judas.

[Charan da]

Dear all, I am not against anybody but I would like to say few words which KABEER SAHIB HAS TOLD IN HIS PREACHING. TRUE GURU EARNS ONLY TO FEED HIS FAMILY AND HIMSELF ,which should not be much more than food clothes and shelter more than that means greediness.seeJESUS GURUNANAK RAVIDAS KABEER SAHIB. SANT GAANTH N BAANDHIY UDER SAMAAT LEI CHARO TEREF HARI HAI JB MANGO TUB DE. KABEER SAHIB SAYS SAINT HAS MERGE HIS SELF WITH GOD , THEY SEE GOD IS EVERYWHERE . THEY NEVER COLLECT MONEY , IN NEED GOD HIMSELF WILL HELP. HE IS EVERYWHERE. MONEY IS ROOT CAUSE OF ALL EVIIL AND BIGGEST ENEMY' OF GOD. THANKS CHARAN.

[j]

"Ask yourself who is the common denominator trying to land his own bro in the shit and the guru? Desperate drowning man - Judas."

Like I said, the typical response is that Kal (or the Devil) has somehow sunk his nefarious talons in the formerly faithful follower of the Guru. Or in the cause of Judas, Jesus.

But I'll ask again -- what does Malvider have to gain by blaming Gurinder for this financial scandal?

I can understand why Malvinder would want to spread the blame to his brother or Godwhari. We at least know they were active players in the transfers of money. But what possible benefit would Malvinder get from falsely accusing Gurinder?

If I were in Malvinder's shoes, that last thing I'd want to do is alienate myself from RSSB by calling the Guru a financial conman. Guilty or not guilty, Malvinder has committed cultural suicide by doing this, and whatever good graces he had with local business leaders were forever flushed down the toilet. As I said, I struggle to think of any good reason for falsely accusing Gurinder or any benefit that Malvinder could hope to expect from doing so.

Except one: I could speculate that maybe, possibly, Malvinder is seeking to curry favor with Sikhs who don't care for RSSB. But even if that were true, Malvinder has to know that the courts will ultimately find out where the crores have gone and who received what. If it turns out that Gurinder and the holy family didn't benefit from the money transfers, then Malvinder's accusations that they did are rather pointless.

So I'm interested in people's speculations on how false accusations against Gurinder could materially help Malvinder. But I'll end this by pointing out what I've learned over decades of following religious groups who get criticized for fakery -- the accusers are invariably proven to have been telling the truth.

[K.Singh]

Georgy Porgy - Sunil Godhwani,s daughter was engaged to younger son of Dhillon. Dhillon put Godhwani in charge of Singh brothers companies to divert funds to his family companies . Once Dhillon realized that there was no more money to be laundered ,Dhillon used the divide and rule trick by offering shivinder to be the next Dera Beas head ,leaving Malwinder to deal with loans used to fund companies of Dhillon and family. Of couse Malwinder was not going accept his brother taking all the loot and leave him with nothing but debt.

[Pankaj]

J to answer your question...Malvinder is putting blame where he feels there’s a chance for an escape. He can’t blame
Shivinder or Godhwani as they are going down with him so he has cooked up an entire story to blame the guru. If you know anything about Indian cases and law these things take decades (sometimes lifetimes) to sort out, so by pointing the finger elsewhere he has added confusion in the mix probably as a delay tactic. He didn’t expect to land up in jail so soon.

[slave_of_GSD]

Georgy Porgy - Dhillon put Godhwani in charge of Singh brothers companies to divert funds to his family companies . Once Dhillon realized that there was no more money to be laundered ,Dhillon used the divide and rule trick by offering shivinder to be the next Dera Beas head ,leaving Malwinder to deal with loans used to fund companies of Dhillon and family. Of couse Malwinder was not going accept his brother taking all the loot and leave him with nothing but debt.

Posted by: K.Singh | October 30, 2019 at 12:09 PM

And ofcourse the evidence will be put through in your next post, along with the Delhi eviction notice, the 1000s acre allotment 7/12, and the bibliography requested by another earlier

[slave_of_GSD]

What an amazing read.

Could you add the bibliography so that one can deep dive into the following key assertions made by you

- bhasmasur : a dravadian leader
- dravadians : now Dalits
- Vedas : written by Aryans
- manusmrti: responsible for caste system in India

Posted by: cocky me | October 30, 2019 at 10:34 AM

Cocky,

Why ask when you probably have the answers already. This individual just shoots and scoots. Even a 3rd grade bollywood script writer pens better content.

[j]

"Malvinder is putting the blame where he feels there’s a chance for an escape. He can’t blame
Shivinder or Godhwani as they are going down with him so he has cooked up an entire story to blame the guru."

Is the Indian justice system so dysfunctional that the guilty just need to blame an innocent 3rd party, and the authorities spend years running in circles? I have no experience with India, but I have to believe one can't delay just as easy at that. Besides, blaming Gurinder didn't do anything to keep Malvinder out of jail.

Also, Gurinder and his family are facing the court next month not because of anything Malvinder has said about them, but because an independent investigation showed that they had received monies.

And if blaming the guru is a good defense or ruse, then why aren't Shivinder and Godhwarhi following Malvinder's lead and accusing Gurinder themselves?

Still, I have to admit that it's at least possible that Malvinder is lying about Gurinder's involvement. I could speculate out of thin air (for I'm not from India) that the court isn't friendly to RSSB and Malvinder is trying to use that to his advantage.

But this case won't be decided on a basis of he said she said. It will ultimately be decided after a forensic examination determines where all this missing money went to. If it's found that the money did go to Gurinder and Family, and they held on to it, then no one's accusations or excuses will matter and Guru and Family will have to pay the money back.

And if that's what comes to pass, then the question will be whether Gurinder organized this to happen. That's not something that's likely to be proven with signatures on documents, and if guilty, Gurinder is hardly likely to admit it. But if all or most of the parties involved in moving the money join with Malvinder ins saying that Gurinder was the director of this mess, then I expect that Malvinder will be taken far more seriously than he is now.

In other words, if one person close to the Guru accuses the guru, then it's common that the followers dismiss the accuser as a wild heretic. But when multiple followers tell the same story, then the accusations have considerably more weight. It will be interesting to see how developments unfold.

[RSSB is finished]

The game is over. It’s only a matter of time.
What is clear is that GSD loves money.
He is not living his life according to what he teaches.
He is a far cry from a saint.
Conman who cares for money more than people.
RSSB is a rich organisation. No spiritual truth left. The people at the top are corrupt.
Violence, theft, threats, fraud, land grabbing, court cases, unpaid loans, selling the gaddi.
Mingling with political leaders.

I fail to see how this is love.
How is this spiritual?
GSD is a businessman not a spiritual guru. His priority is to buy more property for RSSB and to enrich himself and his family.

Ask yourself why this never happened with Charan Singh.

Charan Singh’s priorities were different. He had high standards, but GSD has low standards.

[Pankaj]

J says
“, Gurinder and his family are facing the court next month not because of anything Malvinder has said about them, but because an independent investigation showed that they had received monies.”

This is not true. They are facing the court because Malvinder and his company RHc claim that they are garneshees which they are disputing and saying that they don’t owe any money. There is no independent investigation showing this. Where did you get this from?

“

[cocky me]

Hello You are finished,

1) What is clear is that GSD loves money.

Me: nothing wrong with this. Everybody loves money. If you don't, kindly tranfer all your assets to me.

2) He is not living his life according to what he teaches.

Me: he doesn't need to live his life according to what he teaches. You don't like this - lump it then.

3) He is a far cry from a saint.

Me: Sainthood seems prevalent only in Christianity. Saint Mother Teresa you must have heard of. It sure disappoints you to know he has never staked any claim to any kind of sainthood.

4) Conman who cares for money more than people.

Me: he isn't obliged to care about people. Each to himself and to fend for himself. No free lunches.

5) RSSB is a rich organisation.

Me: ofcourse it's rich and it's good that it becomes richer with every passing second.

6) The people at the top are corrupt.

Me: keep alleging. Nobody cares without admissible proof.

7) Violence, theft, threats, fraud, land grabbing, court cases, unpaid loans, selling the gaddi.
Mingling with political leaders. I fail to see how this is love. How is this spiritual?

Me: manything are beyond your understanding. Do not shame yourself by public display.

8) GSD is a businessman not a spiritual guru. His priority is to buy more property for RSSB and to enrich himself and his family.

Me: right strategy by a business man. Nobody stops you from adopting the same. Ah yes too bad he hasn't claimed he is the spiritual guru.

9) Ask yourself why this never happened with Charan Singh.Charan Singh’s priorities were different. He had high standards, but GSD has low standards.

Me: Ask this other ranter K Singh about Charan - 1000s acres of lands, money laundering and drugs for Congress etc etc.

Jeez, this whole thing is so lame. Thankfully entertaining.

[K.Singh]

Slave _of_JSD= slave of Gurmit Ram Rahim,Bapu Asa Ram.
Even if your Master gets sent to prision you will say show us the proof.People like you never believe anything that is in the public domain. It is people like you who made Asa Ram,Ram Rahim ,Sai Baba MK2 etc.People like you are are responsible for the poverty in India.Politicians created the Dera,s for money laundering and Dera,s emply people to publicise the Baba,s .Ram Rahim,s follwers like you are still asking for proof .you and them will never believe anything against the Master.

[cocky me]

What's the exact reason why GSD and 54 or is it 55 others been asked to be present at next hearing?

Which independent investigation has established GSD to be the beneficiary of the siphoned monies?

What's the latest the investigating agencies said about who the eventual recipients / beneficiaries are?

If independent investigation has established GSD as the beneficial recipient, has he been called to be present because the judge is pronouncing his judgement? Can you confirm this please. Else with investigation proving and judge sitting tight, indian judiciary isn't just dysfunctional, it's a buffoonery.

And yes delaying is easier triggered than what you might believe. Except in recent times in relation to financial and crimes against women

The very fundamental Ram Janam Bhoomi vs Babri Masjid just lingered 160 years.

Jim Sutherland, so much for your arm flexing Modi and Hindus in India. Shame that Hindus have to slug it out 160years to have a temple built at Lord Ram's birthplace in their very Hindustan.

Oops will the Indian press even cover the Singh bros? This hearing is also around the verdict on Babri matter.

[slave_of_GSD]

Hello Ranter Singh,

Tried hard to find humour in your post. But alas the only funny bit was how even an obvious fictional ID can trigger judgements about others.

So if my Master(if it makes you happy to believe it's GSD so be it) goes to jail and I ask proof - the proof will be provided in the form of the detailed court verdict.

Now get your ass moving and provide proof to back up your rants!!!

And it's slave_of_GSD and not JSD and the 's' in slave is in small caps. Atleast get something right for once.

[K.Singh]

PANKAJ.-SHOW US THE PROOF BRIGADE.
SEBI(Securities and Exchange Board of India ) ORDER in the matter of Religare Enterprises Limited.
Order Dated March 14,2019.
This order identifies how the money was unlawfully tranferred to companies belonging to Baba and his family.Your Baba and his family were shareholder of Religare Aviation and many other companies where this illegaly obtained loans went to.

I am looking at TV report where Court official is saying "we were directed by Delhi High Court to evict people from this 5.5 Acres of land Khasra Number ......Our route was blocked by around 250 Radha Soami followers,they started to throw stones at us. Radha Soami sect were squatters here."

But followers of Baba,s are asking for proof of eviction even though eviction has taken place on live TV and watched by Millions.

[💩]

9) Ask yourself why this never happened with Charan Singh.Charan Singh’s priorities were different. He had high standards, but GSD has low standards.......

LOl...smuggling...mistress...

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Pankaj

Just to provide easy access to the facts, here is a summary and links to the evidence

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/

Worse, we learn that the contractor was hired to build a new RSSB hospital to replace the old one. But once the old hospital was demolished, Gurindar, through RSSB, sold those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital. There were no community or public hearings about this. The contractor who sued RSSB claimed this switch was done "in a clandestine manner."

And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis into these through the Singhs.

Here's some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/the-hub/the-baba-singh-brothers-and-the-squandered-rs-225000000000/story/281437.html

And here from Economic Times of Inda

http://hinessight.blogs.com/files/singh-brothers-story.pdf

Summary article

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-10/ex-billionaire-shivinder-singh-arrested-on-charges-of-fraud

Another excellent Summary

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/business-news-riches-to-rags-how-billionaire-ranbaxy-brothers-malvinder-and-shivinder-singh-landed-in-jail/302267

So how much money does Gurinder et al owe?

The information is already available in public documents, as well as the audits conducted by the serious crimes divisible of the Delhi Police as well as the Securities and Exchange Board of India... Listing corporations and individuals...

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/pay-up-singh-brothers-dues-in-30-days-delhi-hc-tells-rssb-chief-dhillon-wife-ex-religare-chief-godhwani/1/383617.html

The earlier June 10 order and business today's own audit

https://m.businesstoday.in/lite/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html

Livemint audit and independent government sources...

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

You may also read that Gurinder's holdings have already been impounded on the RSSB website article here

https://www.rssb.org/news26.html

Additional unpaid loans were procured for Gurinder fraudulently from Fortis healthcare, crippling that company.

The SEBI concluded this was fraud.

https://www.sebi.gov.in/enforcement/orders/oct-2018/order-in-the-matter-of-fortis-healthcare-limited_40755.html

And this is why the Singh brothers and these shell companies, including RHC holdings, together have been ordered under penalty to repay the loans.

They were given ninety days to do so and that period has passed.

Now the Crimes division is building a much larger case. One of the outcomes has been the arrests of Malvinder and Shivinder, but these are initial. The high court has already transferred responsibility for payment to the loan recipients, and has thereby begun the steps necessary to recover those funds. Delinquency to the high court in India can become the basis of criminal prosecution for all of the loan recipients.

And this is where things stand today.

So who received these monies as 'loans' gained through deceit and fraud, who also never repaid ?

Gurinder's family and associated RSSB leaders.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

Now, let's do a little addition, shall we?

From the above...
207 crore to Dhillon family (sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet)
287 crore to both Godhwani and the Dhillon family (Godhwani, Dhillon's chosen leader to help the Singhs, and his own family),
223 crore to the Dhillon family
152 crore to the Dhillon family
Total.... Hold on let me get out my HP 12C calculator.....

869 crore... Before interest...

[Abhi Jindal]

Dear Brian,

I came across your blog and it seems you're doing a great job.

Can you please share the NCLT complaint which Shivinder and Malvinder filed against each other. All the Indian media have it. If you have any contact, do upload it.

I have seen you have uploaded the FIR copy filed by Malvinder against Shivinder, Godhwani and others.

Many thanks

[j]

"J says
“, Gurinder and his family are facing the court next month not because of anything Malvinder has said about them, but because an independent investigation showed that they had received monies.”
This is not true. They are facing the court because Malvinder and his company RHc claim that they are garneshees which they are disputing and saying that they don’t owe any money. There is no independent investigation showing this. Where did you get this from?"

Actually, it's the court that levied the garnishee order against the Dhillon family. That's what I was referring to as an independent investigation: an Indian court that looked at presented financial documents and found reasonable evidence that Gurinder and Family received monies that were siphoned from Malvinder's corporation.

Gurinder and family aren't facing a judge in November because Malvinder ordered this to happen. An independent investigation was made by court officials that concluded Gurinder and family were at least connected to the money siphoning.

It remains to be seen just how deep this connection truly was But we know that presented evidence was compelling enough that the court ordered that the Dhillon family return millions of dollars and cease any financial and real estate transactions until the matter is settled. It strains credulity to believe that Malvinder somehow bamboozled the court with totally false documents implicating 55 Dhillon family members and associates of financial fraud.

[Jim Sutherland]

A pseudo Troll writes,.....” 9) Ask yourself why this never happened with Charan Singh.Charan Singh’s priorities were different. He had high standards, but GSD has low standards.......

LOl...smuggling...mistress...

Posted by: 💩 | October 31, 2019 at 03:41 AM”

Me: I read about Charan’s supposed smuggling, ...of cheap watches and cloths fir his relatives, and Wheetbix fir his own private love of the Cereal. I surely understand how he wisely must have refused to pay the Bribes of all of the greedy leaches with their open palms. But “Mistress?” I have only heard Professor Lane occasionally parrot that accusation. But I have never read or heard any eye witnesses to seeing Charan with his istress, or any of his close inner core Satsangi's outing him, as many of Gurinder’s inner Groupies have outed him here on CoC. So, if you really KNOW any of the details regarding Charan’s Mistress, or Mistresses, please share them with us, so we can add to the on going RSSD Saturday Night alive Drama. Unless Professor Lane intends to share that Mistress story in his up coming Book as well?

[Anon]

J wrote
“Gurinder and family aren't facing a judge in November because Malvinder ordered this to happen. An independent investigation was made by court officials that concluded Gurinder and family were at least connected to the money siphoning.”

J your claim is absolutely untrue. It would be good to read beyond media reports to actual court documents if you want to understand what is “media reported” and what is actually happening. (Which it seems like you do)
Let me help you and everyone here including Spence by copying and pasting directly from the court documents.
FYI for those unfamiliar with court lingo. Judgement debtors=the Singh brothers and their companies including RHC
Garneshees=the 55 entities you have heard of before

“It is submitted that the Judgment Debtors and their subsidiaries have initiated the recovery process and have issued demand notices/ reminders to recover the amounts due to them in order to raise funds and satisfy the Award. In addition, the Judgment Debtors and their subsidiaries have also requested the entities who own money to them to deposit the same before this Hon’ble Court towards satisfaction of the Award.
In these disclosures the Judgment Debtors provided details of all the debt including loans advanced to entities and individuals including the subsidiaries of the Judgment Debtors and other third-parties. As per these disclosures, following entities owed monies to the Judgment Debtors.
These borrowing entities may also be impleaded or garnishee proceedings may be initiated against them. A detailed list of all these entities and individuals who own money to Judgment Debtors and their subsidiaries along with the updated amount due to be recovered is annexed herewith and marked.”

[Anon]

Sorry rest of the message got cut off

Clearly it’s the brothers who are claiming these entities should be garneshees and that they are owed money. The court has then asked the 55 entities to not dispose of any assets and satisfy what they owe or file an affidavit if they dispute the claim of the judgement debtors.
There is no connection of siphoning determined by the court it is simply in the attempt of the court to provide the award to Daichi based on the claim of
The brothers.

[Georgy Porgy]

Wtf is kal?

Superman’s gramps?

I dunno what typical believer you talking about - I do t even know what kal is?

Sounds like you already made up your mind to try drive a point home. Yip another one out to hang the guru high.

[Georgy Porgy]

What I want to know is if the guru is holy or one one of the mystics or the son of god or the universe or the shabd - what happens to the persectutors of Christ?

I mean Spence and Osho and many other persectutors on this could be in serious trouble for many lives to come. They might endure hellfire for generations on end.

Just saying - is it forgive and forget, or firgive them for they know not what they do, or for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction - if it’s the latter, they are well and truly fkd. You can’t just kill the son of god and walk amongst the tulips .

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Anon
Please provide a link to this document.
You have cited the claim of the defendents but not the courts' order..

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Court extends incarceration of Singh Brothers, Suni, Kavi and Anil into their court date November 14

https://barandbench.com/judicial-custody-of-singh-brothers-extended-till-nov-14-in-religare-finvest-case/

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Anon

From the Court Garneshee order to Gurinder et al... The court orders Malvinder, Shivinder, Sunhil, Anil et al to provide all their documentation of the loans to the court for detailed review. So we will learn soon enough

"3. The aforesaid judgment debtors shall disclose, in the affidavits, all the assets transferred by them between the date of cause of action and today, the sale consideration received and the name of the transferee to whom the assets were transferred. The copies of the documents relating to the transfer of assets be also filed along with the affidavits."

https://barandbench.com/daiichi-sankyo-singh-delhi-hc-religare-gurinder-singh-dhillon-pay-up/

[RSSB is finished]

Dear cocky me
Your reply borders on insanity.
He claims to be a saint because he is the so called living guru of the time. He is meant to be perfect or at least not criminal.
Even an ordinary follower has higher standards.
Of course he is meant to set an example. And live up to the teachings otherwise what is reason to have a living guru?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
You wrote
"I mean Spence and Osho and many other persectutors on this could be in serious trouble for many lives to come. They might endure hellfire for generations on end."

Well Georgy, I'm just interested for the courts to get to the bottom of this. They are close to the action and have direct access to whatever facts that can be obtained.

Your remarks about hellfire reflect what happens to corrupted souls who villify those who disagree with them.

As for Judas, he sits in Christ's lap today.

But do you? And if you do, why pass judgment on those you know nothing of? Or dismiss information, or draw conclusions about information neither you nor I have direct access to?

Surely, if you believe what you wrote, you use a gentle hand on those less informed.

But I suspect your hurtful remarks reflect a substantial misunderstanding.

And yet, how can you think otherwise?

Let's both wait to see what happens. Today you or I could be right.

Then when the facts arise, we can look back, either way, and ask ourselves, did we treat each other with compassion?

That's all you or I can do. We don't need to ignore facts. But we should deal with facts and each other with compassion, since we don't know the whole story. Let's wait holding hands, not fighting.

And the facts will determine the matter. But whether Gurinder is guilty or innocent, we can and should remember what he gave us, and give him the honor and respect due to him. If he is guilty, let's help him pay his debts. Not throw stones.

I do not discount the possibility of his guilt. But that can hardly affect love. But the investigations are not complete, so no conclusions can be made except to proceed until the case is crystal clear.

Even a beloved child still must take responsibility for what they owe. And even a beloved parent.

Children should not reject parents simply because they discover as they grow up that their parents, who loved them and taught them, are imperfect.

That's much more important than saying your parent must be perfect in order for you to love him. That seems very childish.

[Jesse]

"what happens to the persectutors of Christ?"

In some Orthodox perspectives they attained salvation because it was all the will of God.

The comparison to Jesus doesn't really make sense. We're talking about a man who is being accused of financial crimes. Jesus, assuming he existed or that any part of his story is true, was accused of claiming to be God or whatever. Some kind of blasphemy. If Gurinder faces trial for his spiritual views like the Sikhs want him to, then the analogy works. But that will never happen.

[Jesse]

"But we should deal with facts and each other with compassion, since we don't know the whole story. Let's wait holding hands, not fighting. "

You ain't getting to Valhalla that way.

[Anon]

Hi Spence I am not at liberty to attach the court order. I’m sure if you look you can find it...I did.
I have copied and pasted these points to prove what I have been saying all along that the garneshees are based on the claims of the brothers and specifically Malvinder and yet this talk of the court determining the Dhillons as liable continues to be thrown around erroneously. So this time I felt the need to quote the court documents itself. You are one of those who has continually claimed these allegations as facts and as a result of which placed guilt on the wrong parties by repeating the same lines again and again.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Anon
You would do better acknowledging the truth of your opponents.

A good lawyer does this. Recall that recently the garneshee orders were upheld against a request to let the Singh brothers et al bargain with RHF.

Those orders have legal standing now. Malvinder asked the court to accept as fact that he gave the money in loans to Gurinder et al. The court determined there was legal merit to that claim, and on that basis, ordered the garneshees to pay. The moment they did this, legally, the court placed, at least temporarily, responsibility for those monies on Gurinder et al's shoulders. And that is where it remains today.

You have failed to acknowledge this simple legal fact.

But no matter. The court, as indicated in my prior comment quote, also demanded that Shivinder et al provide all the loan documentation, including affidavits, to substantiate their claim.

So the whole is in process. Today, Gurinder et al is responsible to the court for payment. In fact he is delinquent, since this is the second such order.

But that may change, as the documentation is further scrutinized.

This isn't about making anyone wrong, Anon. Just acknowledging where things stand.

And as I've repeatedly pointed to, several independent audits, reviews and exposes, including the RHF audit, also confirms that these outstanding loans are real.

That you dismiss them out of hand is your right. That is your opinion.

My view is different. I do not accept the matter is closed, only that there is independent justification for the court's actions, and justification for the current investigations.

You may ignore the evidence, but it's there.

These are facts. Are they truthful? The court will decide.

[j]

"I read about Charan’s supposed smuggling, ...of cheap watches and cloths for his relatives, and Wheetbix fir his own private love of the Cereal. I surely understand how he wisely must have refused to pay the Bribes of all of the greedy leaches with their open palms."

Bribes were never an issue. Paying legally fixed duty taxes was the issue, and there's no doubt that Charan did, in fact, direct a smuggling operation to bypass India's tax collectors by using satsangis to help him break the law.

[j]

"Clearly it’s the brothers who are claiming these entities should be garneshees and that they are owed money. The court has then asked the 55 entities to not dispose of any assets and satisfy what they owe or file an affidavit if they dispute the claim of the judgment debtors.
There is no connection of siphoning determined by the court it is simply in the attempt of the court to provide the award to Daichi based on the claim of The brothers."

Now it's not just Malvinder, but also his brother Shivinder who are in league, falsely claiming that money went to Gurinder Singh and his family? They cooked up a list of 55 people or business entities who actually never received any of the corporation's money?

It strains credulity to think the High Court of India issues orders based on hearsay to garnish millions of dollars from people. It makes more sense to believe that the court saw financial documents that strongly indicate that the money siphoned from the corporation did indeed go to the 55 people named in the garnishee order. That's why the HC of India counts as an independent investigation that corroborates that GSD and family did receive money.

Also, Business Today of India says that they too have seen documents that indicate money flowed from the corporation to GSD et al:

"BusinessToday.In has DOCUMENTED the flow of money from the Singh brothers to entities owned and controlled by Gurinder Singh Dhillon -- the head of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas."

https://www.businesstoday.in/current/corporate/pay-up-singh-brothers-dues-in-30-days-delhi-hc-tells-rssb-chief-dhillon-wife-ex-religare-chief-godhwani/story/383617.html

"Besides the Dhillon family, the Delhi HC is issuing 'garnishee orders' against several Dhillon and RSSB associates' companies, including Prius Real Estate, Addon Realty, Payne Realtors SGGD Projects, Luminous Holding. A garnishee order is an order against a third party to recover money to settle a debt or dues."

Are RSSB satsangis really saying that the Singh brothers are behind an elaborate scheme to frame Gurinder Singh and his family?

[Jesse]

"Are RSSB satsangis really saying that the Singh brothers are behind an elaborate scheme to frame Gurinder Singh and his family"

Yes they are. It's actually not impossible, but here I don't believe it.

I want to see the documents that the media has been talking about showing the money routed to G Dog. It's one of the only important missing links here.

[Anon]

J yes it is entirely possible that the court would order 55 garneshees to either pay what the debtor claims they owe or file an affidavit disputing the claim. Why is that so surprising? The onus is on the garneshees to show that they dispute the claim and to provide paperwork to prove that.
The claim is entirely from the debtors that these garneshees owe them money again I will quote from the order

“In paragraphs Nos. 5 to 11 of reply to the I.A. No.14553/2018, judgment debtor No.19 disclosed various investments and loans advanced by the judgment debtors. “

[Spence Tepper]

Hi J
You commented
"It strains credulity to think the High Court of India issues orders based on hearsay to garnish millions of dollars from people."

It does. The high court makes a judgment based upon evidence before ordering anyone to do anything. It's called culpable liability. When the court orders an individual to pay they are intervening in a business transaction. They only do that when they have credible grounds to believe the law has been violated.

They don't operate under the theory of guilty until proven innocent but instead innocent until proven guilty. If there is evidence the court deems credible, they intervene first to restore compliance. If there is objection on any side to compliance they issue an order, not only for payment but evidence, because they intend to restore the business agreement contract, or if the evidence is there, convict on the basis of fraudulent practice.

Shivinder et al can go to jail on two cases, first that they didn't pay their Daiichi debt, and secondly, that they tried to defraud Gurinder et al.

It's highly unlikely Malvinder would engage the court in the middle of a fraud scheme with claims he could not substantiate. Doing so would just lengthen his jail time.

It is more likely that the loans are legitimate.

But in all cases we don't know and will soon find out.

[Spence Tepper]

And the converse is also true. If Gurinder et al cannot explain credibly the deposits to their bank accounts matching the exact dates and signatures of the loan documents, Malvinder is in a position not only to sue Gurinder for non - payment but fraud.

Or the high court may make both parties defendents in a criminal fraud case.

When Gurinder didn't respond to the courts first order, but only the second, this suggests his legal team had been using the time to work on preparing their own defense before acting. And perhaps they believe now they have evidence for a good defense.

Just as it makes no sense for Malvinder to lie directly to the court and most certainly add to his jail time knowing he cannot prove under scrutiny his claim, the same goes for Gurinder et al.

So the court must weigh all the evidence the criminal investigations have been gathering, and their ongoing review of the documents demanded of Malvinder et al.

It is interesting that Malvinder et al was ordered to supply documention now, when the garnishees were ordered to pay, but only ordered Gurinder to bring his evidence to the court later in November, only when Gurinder appeared in court to make his claim of innocence. The court did not ask for the evidence now, only on the court date in November.

Gurinder's attorneys will not submit evidence if they can avoid it because it might also be incriminating.

My guess is that on the court date the Judges will claim they have a case for payment, offer the garnishees one last opportunity to offer a payment plan, and if they don't, set formal court dates in suits against each garnishee, who will then mount their defense.

It appears the court at this time is only interested in using Malvinder et al's evidence to build their case against the garnishees. So, pay or undergo a suit.

If they have no solid evidence by then against Gurinder et al, then they are off the hook. But if the crimes division has that case, then whatever evidence Gurinder has will need to become part of his formal defense. And in the suit you may make your case. Gurinder's attorney is hardly going to turn over all their evidence for summary judgment anyway, without a formal hearing, either. Gurinder et al 's team will want to hear what the high court comes up with before showing their hand.

But again, let's wait and see.

It really could go either way, incredible as it seems.

[Hail_RSSB]

Bribes were never an issue. Paying legally fixed duty taxes was the issue, and there's no doubt that Charan did, in fact, direct a smuggling operation to bypass India's tax collectors by using satsangis to help him break the law.

Posted by: j | October 31, 2019 at 03:20 PM

J,

So what did you smuggle in for Charan? Or was it somebody from your family who did? This kind of certainty about that Charan directing a smuggling operation can only arise from direct involvement in the operation.

[Hail_RSSB]

Recall that recently the garneshee orders were upheld against a request to let the Singh brothers et al bargain with RHF.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | October 31, 2019 at 03:09 PM

Spence,

Why do you repeatedly display your pathetic knowledge of law and/or legal proceedings????

Get your grand child to explain the reasoning of the judge in sustaining Daichi's objection to Singh bros proposed settlement with Religare.

[slave_of_GSD]

CONSPIRACY WAS TO WARD OFF SINGH-DAIICHI SUIT

One of the accused, in the case of ALLEGED misappropriation of funds of RFL involving former Religare promoters Malvinder Singh, his brother Shivinder Singh and two others, has said that the whole conspiracy was "hatched" in order to ward off the ongoing litigation between the Singh brothers and Daiichi.

Have fun fellas!!

[Chris]

I enjoy reading some of the comments here. I usually find a few are quite helpful in getting a wider perspective.
I particularly enjoy Spence Tepper's contribution. He provides extra information and more than just personal opinion based upon negativity. I also appreciate J's. So I express my thanks.
I skip or skim-read much of it.
Though I saw someone had brought up some of the old chestnuts to bolster a negative belief.
The reality for anyone who doesn't have a 'dog in the fight', or an 'axe to grind', or a predisposition, is that actually there is no actual evidence that Charan Singh “directed a smuggling operation to bypass India's tax collectors by using satsangis to help him break the law”. There is only one allegation of that, and that is from a person who is the only one in his own narrative who clearly broke the law. And it appears from his own account that he himself did it of his own volition, choosing to take an excessive amount of goods secretly, making it an illegal act. This he admits he did on his own initiative. He admits he did that to earn what he then foolishly believed would gain him extra 'merit'.
Confirmation or refutation of the other details of this lone allegation would require discussion with people all now deceased. And this is precisely how smears and lies get spread: viz. ‘don't look at the actual facts, instead look only for statements that confirm the conclusion you had already decided’ = 'delusional thinking'.
According to the actual allegation, Mohinda had used his own circle of close friends to 'mule' shopping that had been left with him by Charan's friends and relatives. It was not even claimed to be the 'shopping' of Charan, nor at his request.

On a wider issue, here is an observation someone wrote in a poem about 150 years ago:

“A debased version of the spiritual teacher and disciple relationship
has spread across the world.
Whom should I tell? No one bothers to investigate.
All are drifting with the currents of deception.
Spiritual teachers are motivated by greed and self-promotion.
Disciples adhere to the teacher for selfish-ends.
The genuine path of surat shabd yoga is eclipsed.”

~~ Shiv Dayal Singh.
True utterances, Utterance 13: poem 3.

[Georgy Porgy]

Spence

No need to preach to me.

It’s not me that’s hellbent on a hangin.

I’m just asking the question, which is what happens if this dude is the real deal and you are persecuting him - does it mean you in for the high jump?

If karma is the basic law of the universe (not the new testament’s forgive and forget), you got major problems - I mean can there be anything worse?

I’d like to hear from the believers and knowledgeable ones.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Hail / anon
You wrote
"Get your grand child to explain the reasoning of the judge in sustaining Daichi's objection to Singh bros proposed settlement with Religare."

You do not understand how legal standing works.

The judge's order was to prevent assets belonging to the Singh brothers (including the garneshee orders) , and owed to Daiichi from being liquidated, which would happen if they were transferred to RFL. Those assets include the monies owed them by the garneshees. Hence this order sets further legal precident that the garneshee orders have standing.

"Appearing before the Delhi High Court in connection with the ongoing execution proceedings against the brothers and several others for the Rs 3,500 crore arbitration award, Daiichi Sankyo stated that any settlement proposing payment of money by Singh Brothers to Religare FinVest would be against the Court's order directing Singh Brothers to not dispose of, alienate, encumber either directly or indirectly or otherwise part with the possession of any assets as well their interest in any company or trust.

[this includes the garneshee orders and all the assets owed to the Singhs]

"Agreeing with Daiichi Sankyo, a Single Judge Bench of JR Midha remarked,

'This would be in the teeth of the order passed by the Court..'

" Senior Advocates Arvind Nigam and Arun Kathpalia contended that no settlement between Singh Brothers and Religare FinVest could go through without the permission of the High Court.

" After a brief hearing, Daiichi Sankyo informed the Court that it would be filing a formal application to this effect.

https://barandbench.com/daiichi-sankyo-objects-singh-brothers-proposal-settle-misappropriation-funds-case-religare/

[J]

"So what did you smuggle in for Charan? Or was it somebody from your family who did? This kind of certainty about that Charan directing a smuggling operation can only arise from direct involvement in the operation."

A RSSB satsangi did have direct involvement in Charan's smuggling operation. That's how we know about it.

Here is his full testimony: https://cutt.ly/CHARAN-SINGH-SMUGGLING

[Hail_RSSB]

Hello Spence,

When you quote a judge/order, stick to it verbatim. Indian judges are very wise in their choice of words. Do not therefore make your own inferences and add ons. Our judges actually get offended by any such act by anybody.

Another presumptive error in "You do not understand how legal standing works."

So here is two bits of information and one advice

Advice: stop being presumptive

Information: (a) one half is a family of Solicitors and (b) one of the two advocates happens to be a family friend.

So wrt India i have more than a fair idea of how judicial processes work.

But hey fellas keep posting. Don't deprive us of some hearty laughs.

Thank You

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
You wrote
"If karma is the basic law of the universe (not the new testament’s forgive and forget), you got major problems - I mean can there be anything worse?

" I’d like to hear from the believers and knowledgeable ones.

Georgy, there is no better source about Sant Mat's take than to read the writings of Charan Singh, Sawan Singh, Swami Ji, Jaimal Singh and Jagat Singh.

Find something there and then please share it with us if you believe it.

Christ is the same Christ that is also the Shabd in Sant Mat. If you had read much of what Charan wrote you would know this. Forgiveness is part and parcel of Sant Mat. You would have read this. And you would know, if you had read much of what Sawan wrote, that Judas sits in Jesus' lap. That's what Sawan wrote to an initiate.

But you can read all this for yourself. Then if you believe it, naturally you will want the protection of a true Saint and will approach one for initiation. If that belief system appeals to you.

For until you do, presuming you believe in Karma as you do, it is you, uninitiated, who are at terrible risk. And those of us who are initiates and serious and passionate about truth, including Brian Ji and Arjuna, and Zen Master Jen are all on our path forward.

To join us you only need to find the path that is right for you.

All roads lead to Rome in this case.

But of course you are here precisely because n you are on a path but may not know it yet.

[Jim Sutherland]

J shares,...” A RSSB satsangi did have direct involvement in Charan's smuggling operation. That's how we know about it.

Here is his full testimony: https://cutt.ly/CHARAN-SINGH-SMUGGLING

Me: In that Article, is mentioned CHARAN choosing the wife for Professor Puri’s Son, and her loosing her chance to attend a University in London on a full Scholarship. I believe that would be Dr. Ishwar Puri, who ended up with the smart Wife who missed her chance of a University education because of Charan’s granting her to Ishwar Puri. Ishwar has publicly stated, in one of his Youtube talks, that the quickest way to burn the most Karma is to Marry. He also said, he quit bringing her to his Satsangs, after she stood up after one of his talks, and told the Audience,...” Don’t believe all that stuff he said. He makes all that stuff up.” ( paraphrasing, as I remember hearing him) .

[Georgy Porgy]

But the Bible was written by men, not god. So I’m asking is the universal law if karma the fundamental law of nature , not the nice man made fairy tales of the New Testament. Even the Old Testament said it’s an eye for an eye.

Doesn’t rssb say you gather karma by doing damage - there’s no forgiveness - you got to pay it off one way or the other. So I’m thinking if someone like you persecuted the son of god , can there by any worse karma ? You got serious problems that cannot be forgiven - you and Judas cannot sit in Jesus lap - that’s a fairytale - you going to have to pay this all off. That is , if rssb is right. If it’s not you don’t have to worry.

[Georgy Porgy]

If rssb is right, do the persectutors:
(a) burn for eternity or
(b) get re-born into excruciatingly painful lower animal 🦔 lives?

[Um]

@George
Nobody can leave his house for free, go to the market and scream an shout to the convict in the pillory, and wash his hands, thinking that that the convict "deserves" that treatment due to his crimes.

Karma says that what you sow you will reap …. no punishment no rewards … just reaping the fruits of ones own actions.

[💭]

Georgy the question is not if RSSB is right then what. The law of the land is the law of the land it’s as simple as that. There are no free lunches. As you sow shall you reap. So speaking ill of anyone isn’t right. We will be our own judge.

[Chris]

I'll just leave this here again:

-- -- -- -- -- --
The reality is that there is NO actual evidence that Charan Singh “directed a smuggling operation to bypass India's tax collectors by using satsangis to help him break the law”. FACT.
There is ONE ‘allegation’ of that. One lone, unconfirmed, uncorroborated allegation of that. And that is from a person who is the only one in his own narrative who clearly broke the law and "smuggled" on ONE occassion.
And according to his own account, he himself did it of his own volition, choosing himself — uninfluenced — to take an excessive amount of goods secretly, thus making it an illegal act. This he admits he did on his own initiative. And he admitted that he did that to earn what he then foolishly believed would gain him extra 'merit'.
-- -- -- -- -- --

This was analysed in detail at the time of the allegation and ad nauseum afterwards. Its NOT credible.

We are expected to believe that a high profile person with no other blemish on an immaculate record, had all his 'mules' take a vow of ethics and high morality but then without so much as a vow of secrecy allowed 'special' ones to be a part of an illegal smuggling team? Hmmmm?

Also it seems rather relevant to point out that by the early eighties when I turned up, a rule was in place forbidding any westerner to bring ANY gifts or items for people living at the Dera even if they claimed it was for the Dera or for the Master. The rule being that any such items were only to be carried with official approval from the Dera and the Reps. Hmmm? How coincidental is that? ;-)

Also, I don't know about now but in the 70's and 80's there was no import duty into India for Weetabix.

Otherwise, carry on... :-)

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/243242

[Chris]

“If rssb is right, do the persectutors: (a) burn for eternity or (b) get re-born into excruciatingly painful lower animal lives?”
Posted by: Georgy Porgy
_______________

Dude, its maybe best that you don't criticise what you clearly don't understand or know much about.
Its neither.

[Georgy Porgy]

But is there a karmic scale

-1 for 🍻
-2 for 🎣
-3 for 🥩
-5000000000 for persecuting a mystic, for finding him guilty by media, for influencing that media?

Didn’t Hinesey Ji write “Life is Fair”?

[Brian Hines]

Georgy, I did indeed write Life is Fair, a RSSB book. So I'm well qualified to talk about karma, which is simply cause and effect. Thus karma is entirely scientific and in accord with the laws of nature.

I still completely agree with that view of karma. But I no longer believe that karma extends across multiple lives through reincarnation, because there is no demonstrable evidence of this.

And I don't believe that gurus or any one else have the ability to take on karmas or adjust karmas, which is the foundation of Christianity, really -- the whole Jesus died for our sins thing.

[balvinder]

All commentators may please note that saints are above law of karmas.They are God in hiuman forms and they sometimes care least for karmas and laws of land even.
Their soul is merged into God and hence sometimes they are fearless and masterss of their maux or will

[balvinderl]

Please read mauz at place of maux in the above comments due to typing error.

[j]

"Otherwise, carry on... :-) https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/radhasoamistudies/conversations/messages/243242"

I can understand that Bob Field's testimony is unpleasant for some people to hear. I can also understand that some people don't want to believe it. But its main points haven't refuted or discredited by anyone.

I was staying overnight at
Mohindas, and was also preparing for a trip to
the Dera. Mohinda took me up to "Maharaj Ji's
room" -- that is what we called it, since no one
ever stayed in that room when he was not there--
unlocked the door and showed me an amazing
amount of boxes and bags of shopping. All of
these things looked like what tourist often buy
from Harrods and department stores when they
travel in Europe. Mohinda said that it was so
large because the Master and his party (Maybe
Prof. Puri, wives, cousins, neices, etc) had been
to so many European cities before he arrived in
England. They had decided to drop off all the
stuff at Mohinda's house. It would be very
cumbersome to take it all with them to America
on their tour there. Mohinda and his relatives
would bring it load by load into India every time
they traveled there, and Maharaj Ji had said that
Mohinda could send some it with any "good"
Satsangis who were traveling to the Dera.

As I noted in a previous post, apologists for religious leaders often lay blame on people around the Guru for what the Guru did or condoned. There's no reason to believe that Mohinda somehow amassed a huge room full of merchandise on his own and cooked up a bogus story about how Charan Singh wanted satsangis to bring it to India. Nor is there reason to believe that Bob Fields, once a faithful satsangi, cooked up the story.

There's a far simpler story: Indian Customs really did have onerously high duty rates (this has been checked out, and it's true), and Charan Singh OK'ed using satsangis to bring items from his family's multi nation shopping spree I mean holy tour back to India.

"Also it seems rather relevant to point out that by the early eighties when I turned up, a rule was in place forbidding any westerner to bring ANY gifts or items for people living at the Dera even if they claimed it was for the Dera or for the Master."

Since Bob Field's testimony is about events in the 1970s (and not the early 1980s) it doesn't seem rather relevant to me.

"We are expected to believe that a high profile person with no other blemish on an immaculate record, had all his 'mules' take a vow of ethics and high morality but then without so much as a vow of secrecy allowed 'special' ones to be a part of an illegal smuggling team? Hmmmm?"

Ah but we're talking about a high profile person who had a high profile only because his person was said to be Divine. And we know from the long and sordid I mean storied history of the relationships between guru and devotee that even the most intelligent followers will do whatever the guru asks with nary a second thought -- give money, give their bodies, beat people up, lie, take drugs, divorce their wives...or in the case of this person, marry a wife. There's nothing inherently hmmmm about an RSSB satsangi believing it was Kosher to smuggle goods because his Guru said it was OK.

[K.Singh]

KARMA.
It was a sin in India to accuse Baba,s of land grab,rape ,murder until Congress were in power as followers of these Baba,s said Baba,s were owners of the world they created.

Then Congress lost power and a brave CBI Court Judge called Jagjit Singh changed the script in 2017 and since then number of Baba,s who were above the law are now behind bars. On conviction these baba,s had said that earth was going to explode if they were sent to jail.

[💭]

K Singh
My baba (the only one I know) says NoBODY is above the law. Everybody is accountable for their actions.

[um]

@ K.Singh

Italians are quite aware about the misery the fascist regime brought about … but … also the things they still profit from these days.

With the decline of religion worldwide, people are freed from the crimes that were done by clergy and their institutions but also many positive contributions to to society are gone.

Besides the things you bring up there is also much to be said about how people benefitted from these religious organisations in India. The very fact that they had take vows on the use of alcohol and drugs has in the west saved many a person in the seventies and later.

[j]

‘BID TO SHIELD DHILLON’
Malvinder alleged in his response that Shivinder wanted to “shield Dhillon from debts and possible investigations and liability towards Daiichi (Sankyo)”.

Shivinder counters:
“Wherever he (Malvinder) became head of business — Ranbaxy, Fortis, Religare, SRL Labs Ltd — he decimated the value to zero for the RHC Group,” Shivinder said in his NCLT petition. “The continuous destruction of RHC’s asset base can be arrested provided the ‘Bhasmasur’ is dislodged from the helm of affairs of RHC.”

‘PSYCHIATRIC ISSUES’
Shivinder also alleged that his brother may have psychiatric issues.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/71798822.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

[j]

Singh bros' settlement sought to absolve Dera Chief of liabilities

"The Singh brothers of Ranbaxy had locked horns over a 'family settlement' that sought to absolve their 'Master' - Gurinder Singh Dhillon, head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), and his family members of all of all the amount they allegedly owed to RHC. Malvinder has placed before the National Company Law Tribunal (NCLT) emails to establish that while he had protested against the settlement, Shivinder had not only agreed to relieve the Dhillons of all their liabilities, but also pressurised Mal"

"Malvinder claimed that the objective of the settlement was to relieve the Dhillons from the RHC dues. He submitted Shivinder’s emails dated June 2, 2018 and June 19, 2018 to prove that Shivinder had promptly agreed to the settlement to appease Dhillon so that he could succeed him as the Dera chief. Malvinder has produced an email dated July 12, 2018 written to Dhillon to show that he had objected to the settlement, and sought details of assets of Dhillon and his family to repay the creditors. In .."

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/healthcare/biotech/healthcare/singh-bros-settlement-sought-to-absolve-dera-chief-of-liabilities/articleshow/71830182.cms

[Arjuna]

I love all the commentators who go on about karma. None has seen what it is or how it works.

Some claim to remember past lives. Hold that thought if that was true - you would cease to exist as a human being due to the shock.

Brian may be right that this inner worlds many claim to visit may just be fairy stories. By christ if they have visited these planes their ego is massive and you can tell that they are more attached to the world in their views.

And for the brothers I suggest they have a MMA style fight to clear the air. Perhaps an octagon cam be set at beas dera. If they turning against each other let them have it.
People news to wake up. Be good

[a wise 🦉]

Some claim to remember past lives. Hold that thought if that was true - you would cease to exist as a human being due to the shock.

Brian may be right that this inner worlds many claim to visit may just be fairy stories. By christ if they have visited these planes their ego is massive and you can tell that they are more attached to the world in their views.

Posted by: Arjuna | November 01, 2019 at 06:57 PM

So Arjuna if 'life' remembered it's past lives, by now life would have ceased to exist in this creation - not due to shock but from awareness. You claim to still connect with satsangis. Check with them on boons granted to Kaal.

Inner worlds - fairy tales or for real. Believe what makes you happy be it thousands of pages of holy scriptures or exer. From my understanding of RSSB any believer who openly talks about his 'access' to the inner fairy land or that bit of God's creation is a fake eg: like this fella who kept yapping about radiant form carrying him through maha sunn FTL.

Zipped are those with real 'access' to the inner worlds unless one is authorised to reveal - you know the likes of Kabir, Soamiji, Paltu, Nanak and similar or acknowledge. And here in lies the absence of any ego.

[a wise 🦉]

Georgy,

The highly acclaimed Jesus Christ - perfect master? Interesting assertion. Judas has had six births since being Judas. So much for he sitting in the lap of Jesus.

Anyways this isn't the moot point. In my view and based on my understanding of Santmat, your question is best answered by what's written about 'ninda' ie slander in Sant Mat.

Karma apart, ninda is often said to be the worst of the vices mainly for its consequences to the slanderer.

Granth Sahib:

Sant ka nindak maha hatyara
Sant ka nindak parmeshwar mara

(Slanderer of a Saint is a great murderer.
Slanderer of a Saint, God punishes)

But also

naanak sant bhaavai taa o-ay bhee gat paahi.

(O Nanak, if it pleases the Saint, then, he (slanderer) may be saved.)

Want some more dope on what's said in scriptures about consequences - easy to dig it out.

And a non initiate would be happy to note that the only source of pleasure for a non initiate serving out the punishment for his slander is the punishment handed out to an initiate slanderer of a sant

So let the exers indulge in their slander of GSD. I for sure won't miss the opportunity to drop in to watch the suffering slanderers a googol years from now.

Road to Rome or Highway to Hell - Judge GSD decides now.

Lol.

[Chris]

To J.
I can understand that having Bob Field's “smuggling” allegation discredited and refuted is unpleasant for some people to hear. I can also understand that some people don't want to believe it. But its main points have definitely been refuted and discredited. :-)

Remember that other incident in Bob's reminiscences where he recounted getting asked to "mule" items through customs and was told: "By the way, don't tell Maharaji about this. Don't mention this to Maharaji"?
Remember that?
Or did you forget that detail? ;-)

Jay you wrote: “There's no reason to believe that Mohinda somehow amassed a huge room full of merchandise on his own”.
That is a ridiculous 'strawman' distortion. No-one ever suggested he did.

Jay, you wrote: "Nor is there reason to believe that Bob Fields, cooked up the story."
That's another strawman misrepresentation.

When anyone needs to start defending a viewpoint with logical fallacies, that's usually a sure sign they are buttressing a bogus belief-system.

C'mon, anyone who believes and spreads the lie that it was possible to "smuggle" Weetabix anywhere is clearly not the sharpest knife in the draw. You see, it wasn't possible to smuggle the afore-mentioned wheat-based, sugar-filled cereal into India, as it has never been a controlled commodity.

.. .. .. .. .. ..

BACK TO THE PRESENT:
Its totally understandable for any honest, fair-minded person to be alarmed at the unfolding of revelations concerning the involvement of the current Beas RS guru in a Ranbaxy-related, Rs 740 crore, fraud case.

But when you need to start including and spreading old deceits and then arguing with logical fallacies, that's a sure sign you aren't looking at the drama impartially. I.e. you clearly aren't behaving either honestly or fair-mindedly.

SUMMARY:
Its just as easy (and common) to be in self-denial and operating from delusion with beliefs that are AGAINST a thing as it is with beliefs that are FOR something (as we have all been witnessing). The common factor in both is cognitive dissonance from having an unrealistic internal/mental 'map' confronted with a reality that doesn't conform to it.
The remedy for usvall is rewriting our mental-maps.

[K.Singh]

Balwinder-Saints are above the laws of karma.

True Saints gave up their own wealth to help poor.
Saints do not grab land of poor farmers and leave them with no income to feed their family.
Saints employees do not threaten M.P because he has taken up the issue of land grab to Home Minister of India.
Saints employees do not dig up the routes of small farmers to force them to sell their agriculture land cheaply.
Zamindar(big landlord) was passed long time ago .2012 Inquiry commission of Justice DP Sood "The Government has abolished Zamindar system by enacting the HP abolition of big landed estate and Land Reforms Act 1953 and HP ceiling on land holding Act 1972 but now a new type of Zamindar(big landlord)are being created in the name of religious instituitions".

[Steve]

I still completely agree with that view of karma. But I no longer believe that karma extends across multiple lives through reincarnation, because there is no demonstrable evidence of this.

Posted by: Brian Hines | November 01, 2019 at 01:39 PM

Mr Hines,

Hello.

Just cause and effect? No element of reaction/consequence?

At the end of one's life, all karmas stand settled? Every single entry in one's karmic ledger has an appropriate settlement entry - no set off's too. Any evidence of this?

I haven't read your book. Religious literature tends to bore me. But was this book penned you as a believer or exer? Any changes thereto you'd want with your exer status?

[Arjuna]

@ wise

These are all stories you have written about. Think before you write.

Kabir comes down and meets kal. Then they have an agreement that we wont remember our past lives.. read that again.

These gods you people write about seem a bunch of clowns . Kabir being God made that agreement. A god that allows his children to be punished. Sounds sadistic mate. Dont buy it

Even GSD have said that all these stories are made up.

Have a good day

[Georgy Porgy]

Karma and the laws of the universe have sweet fkall to do with what any human being thinks is right, fair, sweet or the way it ought to be.

It just is. Like it or not. So if you got an agenda , you are fkd.

[Steve]

Enlightened Arjuna

Why don't you spell out the truth if what @wise has written are just stories; from:: Short stories by Bunch of Clowns. Copyrights Satpurush & Co.

Does your enlightenment indicate a fully aware life existing in the creation bound by some laws of the nature (self evolved laws ofcourse and which includes karma)

God allows his children to be punished. Is it? How do you know it's punishment being meted out? And punishment for what? You understand God and his design? Were your parents punished or was punishment meted out to you? Surely the enlightened Arjuna not only knows this but also knows that God erred. Prayers should have been answered simply because Arjuna knew better.

GSD - who is he? One other clown? And what do we have here then - an enlightened Arjuna taking recourse to what a clown utters believing it to be the truth? Or is he the Sarathi to this Arjuna in here but this Arjuna is ashamed to admit this?

Kabir came down and met Kaal blah blah.... Read it again and again. What a masterpiece agreement Kaal extracted.. Or did he waste his time for a fully aware life would exist anyways in the creation. A corrections though - Kaal went 'up' to Satpurush .

A sadistic(?) and a not very smart God looks like huh?

[Arjuna]

@ steve

I never claimed to he enlightened . Once I read how you referred to me I didnt bother reading the rest of your post.

I thought I'd show you respect by telling you that. # boring.

[steve]

@Arjuna,

Atleast i have never said you claim to be enlightened. But I can always honour you as being one.

Just like GSD has never claimed to be a Perfect Master but gets tagged to be one.

Anyways, only an enlightened can assert the following

- God is sadistic as he allows his children to be punished
- the likes of Kabir, Nanak etc who HUMANKIND respects are just a bunch of clowns.

You judgemental - no ways. And yes thank you for being respectful. It must have been real hard on you to being so.

Enjoy your Sunday!!

[Arjuna]

@ steve

I like you. You show respect too.

I'm a ex solider we are kinda trained to train the emotions . It was quiet easy for me to be respectful. I have nothing to prove to anyone but seek answers to questions beyond me .

Anyways have a good sunday brother