RSSB guru and his family played large role in Singh brothers' downfall

Indian journalists continue to do an excellent job of reporting on the complex, Bollywood'ish drama of how Malvinder and Shivinder Singh's business empire disintegrated, in part because of their ties to a guru relative, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, who heads up the Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB) spiritual organization.

Here's some excerpts from a well-researched Outlook story. I've focused on the passages that mention Dhillon and his family, which are boldfaced. Keep in mind that Sunil Godhwani was the guru's right hand man, personal treasurer, and reportedly once managed the finances of RSSB.
Download Riches To Rags: How Billionaire Ranbaxy Brothers Malvinder And Shivinder Singh Landed In Jail

Of course, it is about money. But in the case of Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, the two Ranbaxy brothers and billionaire scions who ended up in jail, the narrative goes beyond a simplistic explanation. The sub-plots, which emerge larger than the main one, include personal tussles between family members—father-­son and sibling rivalries—besides ­intense friendships that led to ­greater animosities. Add to this the mysterious veil of spiritual power—both the quest for it, and efforts to retain it.

The story spans three decades, starting when the two brothers were quite young, and their father, Parvinder Singh, and grandfather, Bhai Mohan Singh, were alive. It takes numerous twists and turns, curls and loops, and one can lose track of the critical markers along the journey. It comprises hundreds of dubious deals—money transfers from listed companies to sha­dowy private firms. Each tran­saction includes dozens of sub-deals so there is minimal connection between the points at which it originates and where it ends.

Even the mastermind, if there is only one, is difficult to pinpoint. Sometimes, the needle of suspicion points at Malvinder, the elder Singh, who took the key decisions. At other times, Shivinder appears to be the perpetrator, given his aggression and ambition. In some cases, Sunil ‘Sunny’ Godhwani, who handled the personal wealth of the two Singh brothers, looks guilty. The cast of characters also includes several faceless bankers, senior corporate managers, company auditors and fin­ancial experts.

However, there is a big shadow lurking sometimes in the forefront, and sometimes in the background. This is the towering personality of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the spiritual head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), which boasts of more than four million followers across the world. Gurinder Singh’s family members are allegedly active participants in the various firms inv­olved in the fraudulent deals—wife Shabnam, and two sons, Gurpreet and Gurkeerat. RSSB forms a common link between the various actors.

The cases against the Ranbaxy brothers are simple to understand. They all­egedly sip­honed off huge sums—one estimate puts it at Rs 10,000 crore—from the listed groups such as Ranbaxy, Fortis and Religare. They funnelled the money to their closely-held private firms. They retained a part of it, and shifted the bulk of the funds to other firms that were owned by Sunil Godhwani, Gurinder Singh and Shab­nam Dhillon, and Gurpreet and Gur­keerat Singh. Most of the money was used to buy real estate.

The loot was systemic, deliberate, in connivance with the bankers, financiers, and auditors, and against the interests of the investors in the listed companies. It was done over 12-13 years. The money was squandered as the values of the properties fell sharply during the ongoing crisis in real estate. When the scandals became public, each actor blamed the others. Malvinder found faults with Shivinder, Godhwani and the Dhillons; Shivinder with Malvinder and Godh­wani; the Dhillons with Godhwani; and Godhwani with the others.

“The notorious saga of Malvinder and Shivinder Singh seems to be at a conclusive stage and investigating agencies are tightening their grip on the pending cases,” says Sandeep Grover, partner, Ortis Law Offices. “At the same time, in a case filed by Japan’s Daiichi-Sankyo, which bought Ranbaxy in 2008, the Delhi High Court has asked the Singh brothers to reveal details of the assets transferred by them (from Ranbaxy, as alleged by the Japanese buyer).” The court has sought information from the other pla­yers like Gurinder Singh of RSSB.

...The two brothers sought ways to sell the company to a global player. In 2008, during the height of the global recession, Daiichi purchased the Singh family’s stake for $2 billion. It was a corporate coup. The brothers had found the perfect way to tide over a global financial crisis. They had emerged as the Kings of Cash. Finally, to bolster their personal wealth, the Ranbaxy brothers, according to a complaint by the Japanese buyer, illegally transferred Rs 2,900 crore from Ranbaxy to their private concerns.

By this time, the Singh siblings were close to RSSB, Gurinder Singh Dhillon and Godh­wani. The RSSB-Singh family proximity was decades-­old. Accor­ding to members of the sect, when Babaji, as Gurinder Singh is popularly known, shifted to Beas from Spain in 1990 to take over as the new head, the situation was complex. He was inexperienced, and there were int­ernal power struggles. Parvin­der, father of Mal­vinder and Shivinder, ­became Dhillon’s “biggest source of support”.

After Parvinder’s death, his two sons, who were deprived of their legitimate corporate power because of Brar, sought refuge and solace at Babaji’s feet. Sources contend it was the RSSB head, who caj­oled them to sell Ranbaxy. Godh­wani, a key member of the sect, became friends with the Singhs, or at least Shivinder, and emerged as their ­personal financial advisor. He helped them in moving the money out of Ranbaxy to personally owned ­companies, and take important ­inv­estment decisions.

The extent of proximity among these three families was evident in 2006. Malvinder and Shivinder transferred 13.5 million shares of a group firm, Religare Enterprises, to the two sons of Gurinder Singh, Gurpreet (6.25 million) and Gurkeerat (6.25 million), and Godhwani (1 million) at the face value of Rs 10 each. During the company’s IPO in 2007, these shares were allotted to public shareholders at Rs 185. The combined paper profits of the trio: a whopping Rs 227.5 crore. Godhwani was the head of Religare.

After the 2008 sale of Ranbaxy, three strands grew simultaneously. Publicly, the Singh siblings seemed like smart ent­repreneurs, who judiciously used the $2 billion from the Daiichi deal to grow their operations in hospitals (Fortis), and fin­ance (Religare). They had huge ambitions—they wished to build the largest hospital chain in the country, and open a bank. They became the darlings of the media and shareholders. Corporate obs­ervers felt they could do no wrong.

In private, away from prying eyes, the shenanigans continued. Massive amo­unts, raised as loans, were allegedly funnelled out of Religare and Fortis groups, and found their way to the private firms owned by the Ranbaxy brothers, Godhwani, and Gurinder Singh and his family members. One estimate is that Rs 2,300-2,700 crore was looted to buy commercial properties in various cities, including in Saket, New Delhi. Shabnam Dhillon, wife of the RSSB guru, was a dir­ector in some of the largest recipients.

...Malvinder, who claimed he got a death threat, said Shivinder, who wished to be RSSB’s next spiritual head, “bribed” the Dhillons. This was done by the transfer of loans raised by the three listed groups, Ranbaxy, Religare and Fortis, to the private firms owned by the Dhillons. Shiv­inder maintained that Godhwani had ­misused his powers as the manager of the Singhs’ personal wealth. The Dhillon family told the Delhi High Court that it had not ­received any money from the Singhs.

“These are meaningless allegations,” says a RSSB member. “There is no case of money laundering of the sect’s funds. RSSB’s money and assets are handled by a trust, and there can be no manipulation. Babaji’s name is being dragged into corporate scandals masterminded by others such as Godhwani, who bec­ame quite close to the Singhs in 2011.” Godhwani has largely been silent.

The courts will decide the destinies of these characters. The fall of the Ranbaxy brothers is a classic case of how hubris, conceit, hunger for money and over-­confidence can lead to a house of frauds. As quickly as it was built, it can fall ­instantly like a house of cards.

Comments

[k.Singh]

Most people struggling to pay their bills have no idea how filthy rich the first division Baba,s are.RSSB is one of the wealthiest Dera,s in India.
Some wealthy baba,s
(1)Sai Baba MK 2,a known paeodophile died in 2011.Warehouse full of cash and gold were found.All cash was counted and gold valued at more than 40 thousand crores.
(2)Baba Hardev Singh(Nirankari)was selling car spare parts from his shop.Became Guru in 1980.Eldest daughter married to a corner shopkeeper in UK.Died 2016.His Ex-shopkeeper son-in-law Sandeep Khinda is alleged (FIR june 2018 )to have taken 4000 crore from the firm of Samta khinda (wife)(daughter of baba).Baba Hardev,s estate was valued at Rs 65 Thousand crore.
(3)Ram Rahim ,Dera Sacha Sauda set up by Shah mastan a Disciple of Baba Sawan Singh(Beas).Currently in jail.Court order to sell his assetts to pay for damages caused by his rioting followers after he was convicted.His estate valued at Rs 70 thousand crores.

Indira Gandhi became premier in 1966.She set up overseas indian congress whose main function was to take the looted money out of india.Limit to take money out of india was 50 Rs but no limit to bring money into india.Congress workers in UK would visit indian dominated area,s and buy pounds at rate of 25 rupees to pound while the official rate was 16 Rs to pound.Rupees would be paid in india and pounds would remain in UK.Circa 1968 Indira passed law that no individual farmer would be allowed to keep more than 25 acres of farming land.Many had to sell their surplus land.Same time head of dera Beas was alloted thousands of acres of farming land in sirsa and locals were working for free (SEVA).

Dera Beas has more centres and followers than any other Dera.None of the first-division Dera heads that died in last ten years had estates worth less than 10 Thousand crores.Baba Dhillon followers only need to donate Rs 1000(15 Dollars) to clear singh brothers debt.
No Modi-bhagt ,only fed up with loot of poor people of india where labourer earns 200 rupees(3 Dollars) a day .Modi ia also using Baba,s like Ramdev and many others for political gain.Since Bikram Majithia (BJP alliance) got married to Baba Charan Singh,s son,s Daughter,Dera Beas is doing dodgy dealings with both congress and BJP alliance (Badal).

[Whodunit]

Moghul Emperor Shah Jahan's son and heir Dhara Shikoh was satsangi, disciple of Sarmad, and was slain by brother Aurungzeb, as was his master Sarmad. He also incarcerated his father and sister after execution of his other next of kin siblings in battle.

There's no dearth of close association familial bloodletting for selfish purposes when political intrigues and underlying interests of jealousy and revenge cross swords among blood brothers at loggerheads.

[modi_bhakt]

K Singh,

I asked you for irrefutable backup to what you have stated in the last couple of days. Not another round of mumbo jumbo.

I care only about myself and my political aspirations. Give me stuff which helps get a ticket for myself. LoL

Else this just BS and something nobody gives a damn about. Even Brianji unless we soon see multiple threads - each named by you having one dedicated thread. Apart from RSSB/Gurinder who already have multiple multiple threads.

And if you are genuinely fed up about the poor in India - donate all your wealth to one of the poverty alleviation programmes run by the Govt........ Oops did someone in here suddenly claim I am penniless??

[Spence Tepper]

This is the danger of mixed priorities. It is natural here, to always think of oneself, ones wants and desires. Always this colors every decision, every choice. Putting ourselves as the first priority, as the center of the universe.

But in Spirituality there is, at least in concept, the notion that we are only a tiny part of the creation, and not the center at all. That creation works, it has its own rules, and some of them are benevolent. In concept, there is a higher power than our puny will, a higher benevolent will that can heal us, care for us, give us life by submitting our personal will, in trust, to that higher will. If we give up our personal interests to some degree, they will be met better, though not in the way we may understand.

This is the theory. And in some ways every partnership, every company runs this way. Submit a portion of your will, your individuality, to the company's direction, or to the laws of the land in your nation, to some extent, and in total the company will produce something that feeds all our families and takes care of us, or the community or nation will protect you, care for your health, even feed you in your old age.

In Spirituality the concept is taken to its most abstract and absolute degree.

But when those who represent that system of belief have divided interests, then the entire platform of belief collapses. The only way to maintain it is to choose to ignore inconvenient truths.

And human beings are good at denial. To some extent it's a survival mechanism.

Still, the power of prayer, of believing there really is more to this creation than our will, our notions; even more wisdom, healing and insight built into this physical body, which we can access, we can learn to listen to and submit to, and live by, is there for anyone to access. And people will turn to teachers to learn more about this subjective experience. There will always be a market for good teachers, and therefore a market for those who would exploit any market.

Gurinder today, as Brian ji has said with great wisdom, is more business man, than god man. He no longer represents complete submission to a higher will, complete sacrifice of personal wealth and pleasure to the higher benefit of humanity. Therefore how can he be a useful icon for meditation? He cannot.

The corrupting power of a corrupt leader is very sad to watch. It limits the universality of creation's power and wisdom. It forces people to make excuses for greed in order to protect their sacred beliefs . It makes a class system that separates us, divided us, rather than unites us in brotherhood, as brief creatures sharing this tiny moment on this tiny planet.

[Um]

@ spence
>> …….Gurinder today, as Brian ji has said with great wisdom, is more business man, than god man. He no longer represents complete submission to a higher will, complete sacrifice of personal wealth and pleasure to the higher benefit of humanity. Therefore how can he be a useful icon for meditation? He cannot. <<

What you described is "the way of protection" .It is used by all in authority be they kings, popes even criminals use it.

The question is not whether those offering protection are corrupt or not, I guess they always are, but whether those who are protected can live without that protection.

Can we live without this or that form of government?
Replace the word government by any other cultural activity of men.

And since when are "heads of XXX, icons" for those that are protected??

There are prime ministers, kings and presidents but are they an example for citizens to live by??

Mystics, if they do exist, can handle only a few people as they mostly live a simple life. If one wants to offer that "pleasure" to more people, things have to be organised and with the growth of the organisation comes the corruption, now way to bypass it.

So the more people are offered the pleasure of XXXX, the bigger the organisations and the bigger the corruption.

Mostly the corruption remains unseen, but it is always there.

Again … should churches be closed, because the clergy acts in opposition of their own teachings??

Mysticism is not for the masses … like wealth is not.

Palaces were build, cathedrals, dera's by the masses … like the milionairs, and consumers cater for the millionaires

Its is tragic comic

[Spence Tepper]

Hi UM
You write
"Mysticism is not for the masses … like wealth is not."

I disagree. Whatever principles that run this creation, whatever ancient wisdom is built in, refined over so many millenia of evolution, there for us to discover, to rely upon, is within everyone.

Only for a few? That's how humans think.

The power of the creation is in everyone.

A good teacher submits, a good teacher is a student of that.

But submitting wholesale to the business world, to the acquisition of material gain, which is always limited in supply, however massive it may appear, is to contribute to a system founded on the concentration of wealth at the top, and the empoverishment to slavery of those at the bottom.

A victim of this thinking, such as Gurinder, is so impressed by that massive wealth they begin to believe they can do no wrong. But however mighty the sea, the tide that came in inexorably withdraws. And, surprise surprise, the one handed wealth but in their greed chase more wealth is left empty handed. Then even what they had is taken away. Such is the said story of the flags waving atop the building. They go wherever the wind blows them. And all who pledged their allegiance to them must imitate them, twisting to and from to justify the winds of fate. Sad to see humans trade their humanity for a few numbers on an accounting screen. Those numbers arise and disappear.

But in the spiritual world, the invisible blocks in the foundation, at the very bottom, under the earth, hold up the entire structure of reality. A single word from them changes all creation and time. They are in charge, though really they are just part of the greater whole, though to you they may just appear to be the lady who works at the cleaners, or the guy at the register at the market, both of whom seem unnaturally pleasant. And when they smile at you, you can't help smiling back. They are in charge.

[Georgy Porgy]

Easier said than done, but don’t mix business with family.

I still don’t get why the judgement against the company is being enforced against individuals. How odd.

Tis only a matter of time before the Holy Man is exonerated and given full pardon.

[Brian Hines]

Georgy Porgy, I'm not sure what you mean by "judgement against the company." Regardless, Malivinder and Shivinder Singh are seeking repayment from the Dhillon family and other individuals because they're the people who were the ultimate recipients of the fraudulent loans that were siphoned from Religare/Fortis. The Singh brothers can't pay the $500 million judgement owned to Daichi unless that money is paid back.

Separately, Religare is pursuing money that went to individuals because those funds were taken from a public company and that hurt both Religare and shareholders. When people get legal loans, they are responsible for paying the money back. In this case the "loans" were shady, and barely deserve the name "loans," but authorities are still pursuing those who ended up with the money that went to shell companies through complex financial machinations, and then into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates.

Yes, it's confusing. It's difficult to separate out what is owed to the Singh brothers and what is owed to Religare. This is part of what authorities in India and the High Court of Delhi are trying to sort out, along with identifying co-conspirators in the illegal money transfers.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
If you are given, as a gift, stolen monies, you personally, legally, are still responsible to repay the money. You didn't steal the money and can't be accused of that. But legally you must still repay stolen funds. Those are now your debts.

That's why the fraud suit against Sunny, Malvi and Shivi is critical. If they are guilty, then it doesn't matter whether they loaned the money to Gurinder or gave it as a gift but falsely booked it as a loan (as Gurinder's attorney will claim) because these are stolen goods. At that point it is illegal for Gurinder to withhold payment.

Sunny, Shivi and Malvi will go jail for a little while, but as the money went to Gurinder et al, they still must, in all cases, repay. And if they don't, then they run the risk of contempt of court, seizure and liquidation of assets (such as Gurinder's prime real estate in Hawaii, France, England, California, North Carolina, Illinois, Texas and New York) , and jail time, at the discretion of the court.

If Gurinder et al actually signed loan documents, to be determined by the Crimes Division, then they owe not only the balance but the interest as well. And they are already delinquent in payment. All this doesn't require any evidence that Gurinder et al had anything to do with the fraud, only that stolen or loaned monies went into their accounts.

There is no escape from reality.

[Daljit]

Another "Bhagwan" God in Human Form involved in financial fraud.

The list keeps growing. The followers will go in denial as usual.
It's a wonder how a poor country like India has so many millionaire babas.

Rs 409 Crore Receipts Found In Multi-City Raids On Spiritual Guru "Kalki Bhagwan"

https://www.ndtv.com/south/raids-in-3-cities-lead-to-unaccounted-409-crores-receipts-tax-department-2119135?pfrom=home-topstories

[Dungeness]

Gurinder today, as Brian ji has said with great wisdom, is more business man, than god man. He no longer represents complete submission to a higher will, complete sacrifice of personal wealth and pleasure to the higher benefit of humanity. Therefore how can he be a useful icon for meditation? He cannot.

Great teachers of the past have been convicted of "crimes" as well.
They haven't been drummed out of icon-hood. Why... because they
were convicted, even tortured/killed, on the basis of lies. So far, GSD
hasn't even been convicted of a crime... he only bears liability for
illegal loans along with a gaggle of family and associates.

Why does he get tagged and smeared and convicted for being a
suspect? Others potentially guilty of actual culpability seem to get a
sweetheart deal in this disgraceful CofC court.

What superpowers give certainty to claims of his greed and ultimate
culpability. Is it the jet? Properties? His silence? Is that the lead balloon
on the scales? Proof positive of a "guru gone bad"? Ex-ers I'm sure have
heard tales of royalty and people of wealth who were spiritually
advanced. All, however, must concede trappings of wealth aren't
enough for conviction.

Maybe, though you have legal training and feel qualified to opine pre-
trail? Or maybe you know in your gut GSD's guilty and you couldn't
possibly be wrong? Then again, perhaps you're a blog savant and are
given a pass when if comes to rules of evidence and basic fairness.

The cloud is already there. The conviction in the press should wait.

[Spence Tepper]

One more point, Georgy...
If any loan documents contain repayment installment details and have Gurinder et al's legitimate signature, both of Gurinder and any Gurinder family and associates as shell principles and loan recipients, but no repayments from the recipients, then there is evidence all parties, including the loan recipients, were participants in the fraud. Now they can also be accused and tried at criminal participants in the fraud.

[Di]

This situation is what it is-simple! Only a handful of people know the actual truth. The one who speaks is called a liar, and the one who is silent is called wise by those who see the situation one way. The opposite is true for others.
To me Malav's letter seems respectful, credible and sincere. It is babaji's prerogative to speak or not before the hearing. Will have to be patient until divine will is manifested.

I agree with Spence "the power of creation is with everyone."

Will share some santmat quotes for thought:
Sar bachan: guru is not hungary for your wealth for he has wealth of naam; he completes your benevolence, by using your donation for the benefit of hungary and thirsty.
Japji sahib: hungary(desiring) are never satiated even if their storage rooms are full to the rim.
Further, All (everyone) is in Divine Will (hukam, mauj) no one/ nothing is out side of the Will.

If we believe in mauj, then, in this case, Babaji, Malav, Shivi, Sunny, us are just puppets of the Will. However, isn't the Will manifesting at every instant. Then which perspective is correct?

Bullet Shah: "oh Bullah Allah is not separate from us, but we lack the eye that sees Him." Um should agree with this.
For Boss: on hazoor's comments on seva
Spiritual Perspectives Vol.3, section on seva, letter 191 last line, top paragraph p. 145.

[Jesse]

"Maybe, though you have legal training and feel qualified to opine pre-
trail?"

What external thing isn't your god? Random Punjabi men, courts, governments. You seem to have no confidence in your own abilities to do anything whatsoever.

It's especially strange for someone who never stops repeating that all things are internal.

[JS]

All, the time for talking, discussing, blaming, defending is drawing to a close.

Within the next couple of weeks/months, we will all know “if” GSD, Mrs GSD, GSD Jr’s, Mrs GSD Jr are guilty of fraudulent activities or not.

Furthermore, the Daichi settlement remains outstanding. Do the above individuals owe the money, or do they owe nothing (as they claimed last week, at the 11th hour, despite being ordered to pay $500m in June)?

We’ll know a lot more on 14th November when the whole Dhillon tribe, most notably GSD himself, appear, in person, in front of the Delhi High Court.

Rather than go back and forth, we should all now just consider the evidence/developments (the continued detention of the 5, Malvinder’s submission to the EOW in Feb this year, the increasing number of unchallenged articles being written - which make staggering allegations - libellous if untrue, the outstanding Daichi settlement) and sit back patiently whilst we allow Indian justice to run its course.

Having considered all the evidence, available to the public, and recent developments, in my capacity as an impartial observer, I for one am now convinced GSD is guilty and even more so that he won’t be able to repay the $500m to Daichi, as previously ordered to by the Delhi High Court (I expect this to be reconfirmed next month when the whole Dhillon kandhan appears in-front of the High Court).

[One Initiated]

Dear Spence,
your anticipations, expectations and interpretations are all flawed.

You used the words rightly, you get what you deserve.
Hazur mentioned the Naam, the Shabd as bulldozer not any individual or a non-living object.
Brian, is a brother to me, with his own opinions, and so you...
but not that anyone here or this COC blog is the bulldozer to drag, it might be for you because you consider it so... and also lovers are never been called to be dragged, the haters and abusers of the masters shall be dragged as they call it - however, Masters are so full of kindness they shall not allow anyone to be dragged but progress swiftly.
Your usage of uninteresting ideologies are completely wastage of time to read and depressing to understand.

I do not hold anything against you Spence, I love you, but your opinions that you present on this blog are not even worth a dollar.

If you yourself read your last two years of comments, you will find that you have changed your stances every now and then, which speaks volumes of what is the inner stability we have towards The Path of the Masters.

Also, I am failed to assume a smallest reason for you to behave like a Master of the Master and advising what needs to be done by the Master.
A preschooler teaching the dean how to run the university is not even funny but ugly.

He allowed me to attend the last weekend's Satsang at Delhi,
and all your back row sadhgurus attends to The Satguru with love and devotion.

He delivers the Satsang to all the disciples with abundance of love and care.

His presence on stage brings goosebumps and tears to the lovers.

His aura is pure and immaculate and I do not find it comparable in this world.
As what is read in the literature, it is surely the reflection of Satpurush. I am failed to find any single living being on this planet as attractive and as charismatic as Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj.

Lots of love to everyone.

[K.Singh]

"Donate to poverty alleviation programe run by Government"

Government spent Rs 5 Million on advertising this programe,sum donated in 6 months was a total of 1700 Rupees. A Baba asked for donation to buy a gold chair for a dead Baba,27 Million rupees was donated in first week,follwing week total was Rs 40 Million.

[JS]

Not sure if this news was shared on Friday, or over the weekend;

https://www.news18.com/news/business/ex-fortis-promoters-malvinder-and-shivinder-seek-interim-bail-before-delhi-court-offer-settlement-2351251.html

Of particular interest, "The Economic Offences Wing (EOW) of Delhi Police had told the court that the Singh brothers have disclosed that an amount of about Rs 1,000 crore has been transferred to various persons from the entities linked to corporate loan book which was then allegedly siphoned off"

Let us see who these "various persons" turn out to be...

[271 days left]

Why do we all think that Babaji's purpose is to make everyone's bank balance increase? Maybe his goal is for everyone to lose everything and thus come to understand "surrender," "giving up," and "emptiness," which, is exactly what he claims to be helping people with.

[Um]

one initiate,

At the end of the story of Jamun discussing with his friends who try to convince him not to marry Laila, for good reasons, he says … friends you are all right and I thank you all for your concerns on my behalve … but … you should see her through ...MY … eyes.

The question does arise as to what causes Jamun to see her in such a different way?

Is it HIS love that makes her seen that way or is it something from her that his friends are not resposive to?

This is just a variation of the story of the king asking a mystic to be initiated and who hot angry when he was given as a mantra the same word he heard all day shouting in the streets.
The story tells that it is not the mantra that matters but who gives it and empowers it.

and about whatever his uncle often used to say about prashad etc .. what it is depens on how you look upon it.

Love, believe, respect … GIVEN …..can do wonders to what and whom its is given to

and ...psychologists and priests have nothing to share of themselves with you.
What to say about gurus??

[slave_of_GSD]

Not sure if this news was shared on Friday, or over the weekend;
https://www.news18.com/news/business/ex-fortis-promoters-malvinder-and-shivinder-seek-interim-bail-before-delhi-court-offer-settlement-2351251.html
Of particular interest, "The Economic Offences Wing (EOW) of Delhi Police had told the court that the Singh brothers have disclosed that an amount of about Rs 1,000 crore has been transferred to various persons from the entities linked to corporate loan book which was then allegedly siphoned off"
Let us see who these "various persons" turn out to be...
Posted by: JS | October 20, 2019 at 04:21 AM

Hello JS,

The article you referenced actually states that

The investigating officer of EOW, in the remand application, had sought custodial interrogation of the accused saying it was required to identify the persons to whom the alleged siphoned off money was transferred and to ascertain the purpose of creating the shell companies

But I recollect somebody actually stating in here

but authorities are still pursuing those who ended up with the money that went to shell companies through complex financial machinations, and then into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates.

Shouldn't this individual get in touch with the investigating officer and submit that monies have gone into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates instead of posting this in here?

[modi_bhakt]

Donate to poverty alleviation programe run by Government"

Government spent Rs 5 Million on advertising this programe,sum donated in 6 months was a total of 1700 Rupees. A Baba asked for donation to buy a gold chair for a dead Baba,27 Million rupees was donated in first week,follwing week total was Rs 40 Million.

Posted by: K.Singh | October 20, 2019 at 02:34 AM

There are probably a dozen poverty alleviation programmes being run by the Govt. Which one are you referring to here?

Rs1700/- that's pretty bad by any standards. Time to change this. People like you who are so concerned about the poor in India is the need of the hour. You donating your wealth for this cause is such a noble gesture. I am sure you ain't like your name sake who claims to be penniless.

And when are you sending me all the evidence backing up the corruption by Congress!!!!! That's my only interest.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Mediator
You wrote
"A preschooler teaching the dean how to run the university is not even funny but ugly."

A good teacher is the best student and learns every day from their children. They know their children better than the children know themselves or their parents because they are the best students. When they cannot learn from their children, they become unresponsive parents, detached parents, ineffective and misguided by lack of connection and communication.

What is ugly are the sad facts before us. But uglier still those who elect to blame the messenger, to ignore those unpleasant facts and only accept the sweet chocolates. A diet of only sweets will make you ill. Freud said this wisdom, "secrets will make you ill."

And in Baba Ji's case this may have happened. And children who cannot help their parents have learned little.

When children grow up then they are just the same as their parents. Wonderful in ways, flawed in others. All human. The Soul must reside within such vessels, just to exist here. We are all the same, Meditator, and should learn to see the Lord in each other. Yes, he is right there in every child and every adult. He is fully developed in all.

So for any of us children, who are living expressions of the Lord, to choose to ignore facts, or dismiss each other as mere children, amen at don't know the facts ourselves, does not honor the Lord.

But if we love the Lord, then we learn from each other. We follow His example and look and learn.

My father, who when he smiled looked identical to Maharaji (don't ask me why, I have no idea, just fate) taught me as a small boy that the lord gave us two ears, two eyes but only one mouth so that we would look and see, listen and learn twice or four times as much as we would speak. We were meant to learn from each other, the world, and nature, and in the realms within, to just enjoy being a learning and growing, and sensitive creature, a son or daughter of creation. We were designed for Mindfulness, or evolved successfully for it.

You wrote

"
He allowed me to attend the last weekend's Satsang at Delhi,
and all your back row sadhgurus attends to The Satguru with love and devotion.

" He delivers the Satsang to all the disciples with abundance of love and care.

"His presence on stage brings goosebumps and tears to the lovers.

" His aura is pure and immaculate and I do not find it comparable in this world.
"As what is read in the literature, it is surely the reflection of Satpurush. I am failed to find any single living being on this planet as attractive and as charismatic as Baba Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj."

If you were given so much, then why not be humble? Why should the joy of God's presence cause you to criticize anyone at all?

Haven't you found that identical bliss seeing God in your neighbor yet? Sitting on the bus or the tram, be amazed at the love pouring forth from the eyes of a child?

Did you not finally learn the lesson?

Enjoy those good chocolates. But remember the blocks of stone buried in the foundation, doing the heavy lifting so you can have your dessert. Let them do the Lord's work also. They are here under His order.

[Spence Tepper]

Oops, typo
Should read...
"So for any of us children, who are living expressions of the Lord, to choose to ignore facts, or dismiss each other as mere children, WHEN WE don't know the facts ourselves, does not honor the Lord.

[Arjuna]

"He allowed me to attend the last weekend's Satsang at Delhi"

The above was One intiated.

Note the word "allowed".

DISCUSS?

[j]

"Big Breaking," 20 minutes of TV news coverage on Gurinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrjfxuM9lTk

[Dungeness]

"Maybe, though you have legal training and feel qualified to opine pre-
trail?"

--What external thing isn't your god? Random Punjabi men, courts, governments. You seem --to have no confidence in your own abilities to do anything whatsoever.

--It's especially strange for someone who never stops repeating that all things are internal.

Feel free to opine away but inspect the evidence first... both
inside and out. This isn't a case of making random historical
records a "God" or losing confidence to speculate at all on
this financial scandal.

People were killed in gas chambers during WW2 for instance.
Declaring that it's a myth says indelibly you're not listening to
evidence. Instead you're following random inchoate thought
patterns and revising historical fact.

GSD may be guilty of fraud but the evidence isn't complete.
It certainly isn't exhaustive or compelling at this point without
more testimony and/or forensic accounting. His lifestyle or
silence or "un-guruly" remarks are not strong evidentiary
markers if you're committed to a fair examination. On the
other hand, neither is blind faith in his innocence.

If you were practicing mindfulness deeply, I think you'd
glean insights to counter these kneejerk narratives...
whatever they happen to be.

[a wise 🦉]

"He allowed me to attend the last weekend's Satsang at Delhi"

The above was One intiated.

Note the word "allowed".

DISCUSS?

Posted by: Arjuna | October 20, 2019 at 09:36 AM

Certainly.

So whats your take on why did One initiated use the word 'allowed'

You just beat me to posting similarly.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Slave-of-GSD
You ask
"Shouldn't this individual get in touch with the investigating officer and submit that monies have gone into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates instead of posting this in here?"

Absolutely! If you know you have received stolen monies, as it has been published in the press for years, aren't you both legally and morally responsible to reach out to the authorities and let them know?

" Oops, my cousins have been gifting me and my family with hundreds of millions in stolen property! Now I see! Now I know! Here is what I still have. The rest I mistakenly spent on real estate, not knowing this was stolen. How can I help you recover this? I'm already reaching out to family and friends to put together a list of what we can do, and what we need to do to make this right..... Here's what I can liquidate now....I've got centers in my name legally throughout the world in some prime real estate locations... Places used only a few days a year, which will harm no one, but by selling these assets this will do great good paying off my debts. And serve as a model to my followers of what it means to do the right thing for our soul, not the wrong things in service to our bank account. "

Then we retain the gift of purity that is priceless. And it is absolutely in our karmic, moral interests.

Otherwise we have traded that priceless gift for rubble and paper, and electronic spreadsheet numbers that flee the instant anyone switches off the mis-appropriated electricity.

In silence, accepting and using stolen goods, and now in full knowledge, we have added immeasurably to our debt participating in the theft from others, even to the detriment of patient care. Innocent and injured, elderly infirm, suffer because our actions injured and hobbled a health care provider to near bankruptcy, forcing cuts that effect care and quality. A healthcare system we had responsibility for, and hence all those underserved patients who should have gotten surgeries, treatment, supplies and adequate staffing, but under threat of insolvency, lost those due to our active acceptance of stolen monies.

The circle's effect ripples outward and magnifies to the power of six thousand crore the harm to others by our one act of silence repeated daily for five years. And in our full knowledge, that six thousand crore becomes six hundred thousand debt in our own karmic account.

[Spence Tepper]

The Kingdom of heaven is within, and not the RSSB kingdom of lands and castles of stone and steel throughout the world. Let them go, Baba Ji, and regain the true Kingdom.

[Di]

@j "Big Breaking"
The gentleman presenting the news claims that he spoke to RSSB Dera secretary and was told that dera is separate from guru and his family matters.
Did the journalist misunderstood and misreported? Perhaps guru's family matters are separate.
It would be extremely unlikely that dera management would distance itself from the guru. Without guru what would be the purpose of dera?

[um]

Things, people, facts are what they are...
seldom what they look like, appear to be …...
let alone how they are presented.

The way we present things, facts, activities, is our personal responsibility …..
If a person stands in a pillory, NOBODY is asked or forced to go to the market, scream at the accused throw material and mental rotten stuf on him.

Whatever the accused has done can and is never an excuse for that behaviour.

[slave_of_GSD]

Spence,

In that case please do the honours of informing Brian Ji Hines that he should inform the investigation officer that the imonies have gone into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates (on Oct 19th) and that he doesn'tneed to waste any more time trying to identify the persons to whom the alleged siphoned off money was transferred and as as stated by him in the remand application.

[Arjuna]

@ a wise.

Talking about One Initiated.

He is lost and his mind is chasing shadows as was once I.

I thought GSD did not interfere in "allowing" people to think . We make ourselves feel good writing such stuff. Its nonsense of course and pointless.

I know a few shit heads who ho to satsang here as they are "allowed". However they are the lowest remnants of humanity - shoddy plumbers, shoddy electricians and much more who have screwed people out of money but yet they get "allowed " to go to hear GSD.

It's a game A Wise. And One Intiated is just a puppet as I once was.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Slavd-of-GSD
You wrote
"Shouldn't this individual get in touch with the investigating officer and submit that monies have gone into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates instead of posting this in here?"

That is certainly Gurinder's duty, and in this regard he may be remiss.

You then wrote

"In that case please do the honours of informing Brian Ji Hines that he should inform the investigation officer that the imonies have gone into the pockets of the Dhillon family and close associates (on Oct 19th) and that he doesn'tneed to waste any more time trying to identify the persons to whom the alleged siphoned off money was transferred and as as stated by him in the remand application. "

But you appear to have missed the earlier reply above.

Brian Ji is a Satsangi. Perhaps the most scrupulous of all.

However it is Baba Ji's duty to make his own detailed admission and to help the authorities in any way possible, as a model citizen.

Brian Ji is only encouraging all parties to be honest and then responsible. He's doing the work assigned to him, cutting through falsehood with facts and reason. No one should take that personally. He is the Lord's Divine Bulldozer. His reasoning is unassailable because he is scrupulously conservative about what the facts actually mean.

But it is those parties involved who are responsible to submit their admission. As Satsangi brothers and sisters we should encourage each other to do the right thing. But we cannot do the right thing for anyone else. Each carries their own Karma.

[Mira]

You have no idea how power ful my god is you think hes corrupting them let me tell you he is not. He is My God

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Mira
You wrote
"You have no idea how power ful my god is you think hes corrupting them let me tell you he is not. He is My God"

God is everyone's God, Mira. The possessive doesn't apply to God.

The true God isn't your God. But you are His/Hers, Mira.

And whatever laws God made, they are part of the creation. They deserve pure respect. He doesn't usually break his own laws. So, no excuses.

God isn't, actually, the most charismatic person in the room. His/ her sense of humor may not be brilliant. God may not be the psychological Crack cocaine fix people expect when the Guru is giving Satsang.

People who want a rock star get the guru they deserve.

God is the six year old overweight girl in a dress too tight sitting quietly in a corner whispering to her best friend, her doll.

But humility cannot even be discussed. The creation serves us day and night in absolute silence in every corner of existence. It is an insult to God to imply anyone is God and others are not. It is an insult to God to defend secrecy and theft. Then we are stealing from the Lord directly. Of course that can't actually be done. Accumulation is just a fool's paradise.

God is humbling, at the back of the audience, always there.

The true student of God, serves with utmost attention, ever fearful of offending, like a loving parent of a sick child, always nervous they have not done enough. Mindful that they can never do enough, but so passionate for their child they only want to be with them all the time.

The person on stage knows they are just an actor for people who need an actor to understand something about reality. 'Here, I'll act it out for you. ' They give their performances for brief periods and then go live their own separate lives of worldly wealth and acquisition.

The true servant of God cannot help living all the time with their children. It's the only place they want to be.

A true Guru, like the stream in a valley, places himself /herself beneath all others, not above. They're not making business deals for big land grabs beyond anyone's actual need. They don't hide behind a wall of security Sevadars as they make their way back to their villa, having given their two hours. True Saints know that doing this is a terrible example of who and what God really is.

In these fake organizations, it's all about how much you love God. Proving it, displaying it. But real love is service to God, and that is helping others, not talking about how much you love God.

The true Saints refuse any titles at all. And this is why every sincere person finds them readily... At the bottom, not the top.

And the proud are mystified and in darkness, looking for someone in robes upon a stage. Ignoring the little lonesome girl, or the tiny boy on the autism spectrum sitting quietly by himself at Satsang because the other children don't want to play with him. And the other children's parents think of him as untouchable.

And so all spiritual power flow to those silent servers and through them. And far away from those so proud of their own love for their guru, which is nothing but narcissm.

The ones you hold on contempt for merely being powerless and untalented, handicapped and inarticulate are that power, in human expression.

Love for the Master, if they are a true Master, is a humbling experience, not something that inflates one with pride.

Be proud of what you don't own. Not of what you possess.

The True Guru owns nothing, and so the entire creation flows through them. They are irresistible, to anyone who takes the time to look.

[Daljit]

Mira,
There are satsangis here who don't believe in power of your God (I am assuming you are taking about Babaji GSD) and who are posting here even though GSD does not endorse it. Moreover they are saying GSD is not God. Please talk to them nicely and make them understand :)

[Osho Robbins]

“ God is everyone's God, Mira. The possessive doesn't apply to God.
The true God isn't your God. But you are His/Hers, Mira.”. - Spence

You heard the story of the Sikh guy praying to Allah. Another Sikh guy approaches. “Why are you praying to Allah? Being a Sikh pray to our God, Waheguru”

The first man replies, “you are such an idiot. I am praying to God to give me back my Dassi (10c) coin which has fallen into the drain. I am not going to send my Waheguru into a dirty place like that, hence I am praying to Allah”

Funny story but it illustrates that all religious people divide their gods and are very possessive about their personal god.

RSSB is no different. That’s one reason people in RSSB are not friendly towards me. Last time I said “there is no Kal?” And he said “yes - the story of Kal is just a story not literal”
Then the follow-on question, “and there is no Dayal then either”
Now that’s pushing it a bit too far for comfort.
He agreed but I can understand the followers won’t be too happy.
It’s one thing to destroy their Kal as he was the bad guy anyway.
A bit like killing the devil.
But to destroy Dayal and sat purush in the next breath is too much. It’s a bit like killing Jehovah.
Dayal is the RSSB equivalent to God.
The followers think he is real.
Just as Sikhs think Waheguru is a real person.
People make their god a real person.
And man makes god in his own image.
Gives him human characteristics

[K.Singh]

Breaking news,
By elections for 4 seats of Punjab Regional assembly today. Yesterday Chief Minister of Punjab Maharaja(Ex) Amrinder Singh (congress)sent his party representatives to meet Baba Dhillon .A meeting with Baba Dhillon is a sure sign of approval.Baba Charan Singh,s family including his sisters family (Dhillon) were alloted thousands of acres of land in princely state (Riasat Patiala ) on favorable terms and they settled there .Chief Minister,s son in law and son are charged with money laundering by CBI (central Govt agency).Chief Minister himself was charged for City centre land fraud of 4000 crore by Punjab Police while he was in opposition but soon he came back to power charges were dropped.

[Jasbir sanyal]

I may be fraud just blindly don't believe me . Please do meditation go inside and check if your master is correct in whatever he said . 8 petal lotus is the place where he waits for his souls . Reach there and see the true form of your master .
Gurinder Singh Dillion

This he told me in year 2000 when I first met him. From that day till 2018 he repeated again and again same.

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Osho. A beautiful essay...

". Last time I said “there is no Kal?” And he said “yes - the story of Kal is just a story not literal”
Then the follow-on question, “and there is no Dayal then either”
Now that’s pushing it a bit too far for comfort.
He agreed but I can understand the followers won’t be too happy.
It’s one thing to destroy their Kal as he was the bad guy anyway.
A bit like killing the devil.
But to destroy Dayal and sat purush in the next breath is too much. It’s a bit like killing Jehovah.
Dayal is the RSSB equivalent to God.
The followers think he is real.
Just as Sikhs think Waheguru is a real person.
People make their god a real person.
And man makes god in his own image.
Gives him human characteristics"

Then if it is our nature, let's find God in everyone!

Then the entire creation is God, intimate, in deep friendship, with each of us. Then God is alive, and the very life in all.

[RSSB is FINISHED]

One initiated says he has never met anyone as charasmatic as GSD.
Self delusion.

[slave_of_GSD]

Breaking news,
By elections for 4 seats of Punjab Regional assembly today. Yesterday Chief Minister of Punjab Maharaja(Ex) Amrinder Singh (congress)sent his party representatives to meet Baba Dhillon .A meeting with Baba Dhillon is a sure sign of approval...............

Posted by: K.Singh | October 21, 2019 at 02:31 AM

Have just made a strong case to the Nobel Committees to constitute a prize for 'logic and critical' thinking'. Jeez I already see a potential winner right here!!!😀

BTW what was Dera's (Jaimal Singhji) leaning during the last national elections held in May 19?

[JS]

Just a thought, how will the notoriously camera-shy GSD cope with all the press attention when he crawls out from under his rock to appear in front of the Delhi High Court on 14/11?

I hope the police are ready to detain any over-zealous sevadar’s who may think they’re above the law, just because they’re clinging on to The Billion Dollar Con Man’s coat tails

[slave_of_GSD]

One initiated says he has never met anyone as charasmatic as GSD.
Self delusion.
Posted by: RSSB is FINISHED | October 21, 2019 at 07:30 AM

Probably only a self deluded can recognise another!!!

[K.Singh]

"How will the camera shy GSD cope with the press attention when he appears in front of Delhi Court".
Many of GSD followers believe his image is so radiant/bright that it never shows up on CCTV/Cameras.

Some of his critics think GSD camera phobia relates to his colourful life in Spain prior to becoming master.

Has anyone ever asked the master to explain his camera phobia at satsang question session ???.

[Georgy Porgy]

I don’t blame the guru for not wanting his photo taken, I too hate it. Why do you need a photo? He prefers to lead a sincere private life, not splashed across the tabloids. He doesn’t need fake or money.

It’s only fkwts who want their photo taken.

This guru sounds v sensible to me.

[Georgy Porgy]

The more I hear of this guru, the more I like him.

+ No photos
+ Likes the women-folk and aunties
+ Sensible
+ Practical
+ Successful business man
+ Kind
+ Humble
+ Supports the magnificent 7.

I can’t think of any negatives

[j]

Songbird says don't you dare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NR1YkTZdL0

[Daljit]

For few negatives pls consult the riches to rags Ranbaxy brothers. Shivinder’s dream of becoming the next Guru may also be in jeopardy

[Juan]

Likes the women-folk and aunties

His mission is to Empower Women.

This time in Oct. in Delhi he gave chance to a Lady Sewadar – Reena Michandani to drive his car for Darshan inspite of Male Driver as usual.

[One Initiated]

Oct, 2019 Delhi Satsang:

Q. Babaji, in an earlier QnA you told a child, if you were given the chance you would never have asked anything to your Master (Hazur Charan Singh Ji) ?

A. (punjabi)
"Guruaan de agge sar jhukaye jande ne, sawal nahin puchhe jande"
english:
A disciple shall bow to the Master, not question Him.

[RSSB is FINISHED]

One initiated
You carry on bowing to the guru
While he continues to fill his pockets with the loot. Perfect strategy to reach spiritual Heaven

[One Initiated]

Finished,

I righteously will keep on bowing till my last breath,
for you do not know what happened inside of me due to Him.

And happens on every Satsang that He allows me to attend.
Yes, sniper, no matter how solid you are, you can not move unless allowed,
you can not attend unless He wants and allows you to attend.
Stop fooling yourself and wasting precious years of this priceless birth.

All the possible money of the world already belongs to Him,
because He is the representative of SatPurush.
There is no wrong in ethically earning the business income.
Money is needed to manage the chaos, the money that He has received already belonged to Him.
It was parked with the brothers, and they we misusing the funds since 2003, misleading the business, destroying the Ranbaxy by producing substandard drugs, hence they are knocked out from the equations. It was inevitable, it happened in the benefit of the planet.
Ranbaxy is profitable and back into the business. It's supply chain is resumed and quite operational now. read the annual/quarterly consolidated report of Sun/Ranbaxy.

for the money or any other worldly issues,
the most striking 4 lines from AdiGranth:

Guru jo chahe so karda hai,
Guru khali bhande bharda hai,
Guru bharey nu wi khali karda hai,
Guru jo chahe so karda hai.

meaning:

Master does as He wish,
He fills the empty vessels,
He empties the filled ones,
Master does as He wish.

[Jesse]

"All the possible money of the world already belongs to Him"

Then why does he take donations and stolen loans and then lie about it?

[Neon]

One Initiated,
Those are very dangerous lines. Do you actually think if a god exists, he would be happy that those lines were written? They are senseless. Any meaning that comes out of those lines can only be traced back to the massive ego of god/master.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated
A true Master doesn't allow you to bow.

A dear Satsangi friend shared this experience he witnessed. Charan Singh passed a line of Satsangis waiting to greet him. Two ladies with scarves on their heads and Holy prayer beads bowed before him in holy reverence. As he passed by he said, 'ladies, knock it off.'

To bow before the lord should not be an escape from your duty as an adult. To stand on your own two feet and take full responsibility for your behavior.

Gurinder, unless there is some other context to that comment, is wrong.

The Lord serves us all silently. And we should learn to do the same, not to demand silent obescience to the 'king'. For the king to ask this is really wrong headed. We are all the same, One.

Brotherhood is completely different.

No true Saint demands that people must bow at their feet. It's a completely backwards remark.

The Lord serves us. And then we can't help serve Him, and all creation.

He doesn't demand people bow at his feet. He lovingly washes yours.

Another example of what's gone terribly wrong with this guru.

[One Initiated]

Jesse,
Because this is how Satpurush commands His Saints,
He wouldn't alter the rules of the physical realm being setup by the Lucifer.
They would not exchange the wealth of Shabd for the dirt, instead they don't care to be looked dirty and happily manage the dirt with the dirt.

Neon,
Isn't the thought (reality) that each one of us are approaching our death (of body) and we are not yet inside in the bliss of the Shabd ?
What we all are doing outside when we know everything is inside! We are doing a sheer wastage of precious years.

It is such a sweet irony when only Saints deserves to be egoistic for being the Lord of the Lords of Universes, only they are the most humble of us all.
And that's why they are the most loveable of us all as well

I hate being egoistic, thus anonymous, it's very hard to let it go away - that is the reason it's always told to not to share the inner proceedings with others as that brings ego and hinders the growth.
Obviously I am corrupted by the ego and that's why I am writing those lines.
Had I not been egoistic, it means I would be in ParBrahm, I wouldn't be commenting here.
However egoistic it may sound but all what I wrote is truth - Babaji is the purest of the pure living being on this planet earth in this time frame and I feel myself so lucky for having been accepted by Him - I long to sit under His feet for hours and hours and having His continuous darshan, receive His drishti... but tied up with excessive worldly duties and could attend to His discourse only a few times a year.

These millions and billions are just numbers and doesn't value more than the dust under His feet.

[One Initiated]

Yes Spence,
A true Master doesn't demand and never demands,
instead they themselves bows to the disciples.

Also a true Master always talks of His Master as the Master of all HIs disciples,
and always keep considering Himself as the disciple.

That's how Babaji starts the session by bowing in front of the disciples.

Although, It's in the super ultra benefit of disciples to bow to their Master.

And that's a clear reflection that Babaji is a true disciple and also a true Master.

It is hard to explain,
but very strange that your more hatred is inducing much more love for Him inside me.
And I am much more attached to Him now.

[Georgy Porgy]

I never saw or heard the guru say bow to me. I do remember him saying that I am not the true master, which is the shabd. I also saw him get quite impatient at ppl constantly asking him for grace and other miracles - this is not his purpose.

If however the guru awakens something in some inner part of somebody else, some kind of nascent recognition of what he truly and fundamentally is, and they want to bow in respect - then who are you and I to judge? Mind your manners and your own limited viewpoint.

If guru has himself recognized that quality in his own master , then he would also bow. Doesn’t mean the master or objection of devotion himself needs all that. It’s just a sign of respect.

I just don’t think you Yankee Doodle dandees are really cut out for this spirituality. Neither am I , but if someone has more spiritual inclinations - who are we too judge the recognitions and insights of others who may be far more advanced.

[Spence Tepper]

And as for Baba Ji not asking anything of Charan, I'm sorry but that is not enough. Bowing is not enough.

He took his vows. His love for His Master is reflected in his strict obedience to the wishes of Maharaji. A singular life of devotion to God, not divided interests to the almighty rupee.

He took the role. That was his to use for the benefit of humanity. Not charity, prayer and acquiring land and wealth all mixed up. Those are divided interests. And a house divided cannot stand.

But we know that his intention was to serve Maharaji. Every addict loathes their addiction.

So, Baba Ji, how can we help you? Please pay your delinquent bills.

[Whodunit]

It is better 'One Initiated' that you don't spill your precious pearls here among those who have not any realization to what you know and experience.

It is wasting your own fruits into the abyss of ignorance where none can receive any of your knowledge or understanding, they cannot possibly fathom what it is you know or have had the pure benefit to have received in your own experience.

Far better to keep it hidden, they will never recognize nor appreciate any of the gifts that you have seen or heard for yourself, these are yours to know and keep, not for anyone else.

[Gumshuda Bachha by Peela Gubbara]

What's most interesting to see is the noticeable difference in the way the 'proponents' put their views across in contrast to the 'opponents'. The pro-RSSBs (arguably the ones closer to God) seem to be a little more aggressive. Really, should be the other way 'round. Unless this is how it rolls now.

[Di]

One initiated,
Please provide page reference in Adi Granth.
I would like to read to entire shabd.
Thank you.

[Gumshuda Bachha by Peela Gubbara]

I was also 'allowed' to attend the Delhi Satsang earlier this month.

BBJ said in the most eloquent manner - what's the point in chasing wealth and accumulating more that we're ever going to need? We only need a little bit of space (aka real estate) to rest, a couple meals a day, and a couple of sets of clothing.

I was sat at the (very) back where there's no cushions and you dont get special parking slots. I had to look around to see the 'ordinary' sangat's reaction. Blank. Lost. I bet they have no idea.

I was stuck in traffic for the next four hours still thinking what the hell did I just hear.

Look, fellows, even if the Dhillons walk out not guilty (most likely), don't you think the real estate that RSSB has accumulated as a trust goes against that sentiment? Why do we need so much land, why do we need to serve Dosas, samosas, veggie burgers and what not at Bhojan Bhandars? Why does the alarm no longer go off at 3:00 am at the Dera? Where are we headed?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated
You write
"It is hard to explain,
but very strange that your more hatred is inducing much more love for Him inside me.
And I am much more attached to Him now"

If you have more love for Baba Ji, reading my words, then why call it hatred?

It is love, One.

When you can see no hatred at all in an opposing view, one that actually helps you live a singular life of worship, then that's progress. It may be genuine love for life.

But telling others that they hate only because they are trying to digest unpleasant facts in an honest and truthful way, without inventing justifications and excuses, that can't be perfect love. Not yet.

"Raise your love, so that on a platform of love you will find the truth."
-Baba Ji

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One
You write
"Also a true Master always talks of His Master as the Master of all HIs disciples,
and always keep considering Himself as the disciple."

But at the Satsangs I've attended Baba Ji never mentioned Maharaji be name at all. Never "Maharaji used to say.....", "Maharaji taught me......".. Once, Maharaji did... Said....."

Never.

[Spence Tepper]

Because of his actual status, I don't think Baba Ji is permitted to say "My Perfect Master and Lord, Maharaj Charan Singh....."

I think he is prevented from making that statement, and referring to the Lord by His Name, as Ishwar does for his Guru, Great Master Sawan Singh Ji.

[Vijay]

One initiated you said
“It is hard to explain,
but very strange that your more hatred is inducing much more love for Him inside me.
And I am much more attached to Him now.”

My sentiments exactly. Thank you for sharing as always your posts are a treat
To read.

[Vijay]

Spence you know not what you are talking about. He has clearly said there are no debts nothing is owed by him. If you dont believe him but instead believe the press which has published news stories Planted by Malvinder for his benefit then that’s your problem.
P.s please don’t reply to this with links to old news stories like you have done many times in the past. They are all bogus.

[Anon]

Gumshudda you as well as many people constantly ask the same question here. Why does RSSB need so much land. I don’t ask the why but I can only say from what I see. I live near Petaluma California and as you all know there is a big property at Petaluma dedicated to Seva and Satsang. I have many many friends and relatives who spend their weekends at the property doing Seva together. Most of them are older people who either go with their families or are widowed and they are quite happy using Seva as an excuse to be productive. If not for this they probably would be in the affairs of their children or partying or playing cards(older Indians love to do this). And this is just one example...there are many such properties around the world. So the way I see it is if they are provided with a place to be productive while keeping the purpose and goal of life(god realization) in front of them then what’s the harm? It’s all good actually from my point of view. And I am so thankful that my own mother and father are able to do this too. They are eternally grateful for Seva. Maybe it’s time to stop asking why why why. Babaji says the finger is pointing to the forehead and we are busy looking, worshiping and questioning the finger.

Secondly I love dosas etc. nothing wrong with some yummy food as long as you don’t overeat and don’t meditate in the morning as a result of it.

Thirdly I did hear the 3 am bell. Perhaps you were sleeping and missed it. 😉

[Um]

@ Gumshuda Bachha by Peela Gubbara

Not that it matters … but why not start with those who give the money??

Many, many years ago, when i still used to go to their centers, i found that people, certainly Indian, are very eager to donate. I didn't discus it then but I got the impression, and that can be totally wrong, that they even made a game out of it who could donate the most.

this money has to be used don't you think so?

Why not create copies of the headquarter where one can do seva. Seva another thing they rejoice in …. community work brings tons of pleasure, some good good, much laughter.

I wonder if they care if there is any spiritual value attached to it.

This pleasure now and then gets spoiled by all to zealous and bossy characters but otherwise it was great fun …. at least that is how i remember it from a decade or mare ago.

I never saw a person filling his pockets …. or … it must have been a chapati

[Spence Tepper]

Vijay
You wrote
"Spence you know not what you are talking about. He has clearly said there are no debts nothing is owed by him. If you dont believe him but instead believe the press which has published news stories Planted by Malvinder for his benefit then that’s your problem.
P.s please don’t reply to this with links to old news stories like you have done many times in the past. They are all bogus."

And you do know what you are talking about?

On what factual grounds do you make this claim?

On what factual grounds do you conclude Baba Ji is telling the truth (I do not say he is lying, but many people sincerely claim to know the truth when they are simply believing what they want to, without having actually acknowledged any facts at all) .

It is one thing to say "I believe the Honorable and beloved Alijah is God in the flesh."

But it is another to say, "you are wrong to quote serious audits pointing to fraud."

Vijay, truth invites inspection.

You are most welcome to share any facts. Even subjective ones like your personal experience in his presence. That is legitimately your experience. It is worthy of honor. But it is not worthy enough to dismiss objective facts.

Truth invites inspection.

And until this matter is fully documented, more inspection, not less, is needed. More transparency, not less. More submission of bank accounts, tax documents and loan statements, not less. And these need to be discussed and digested to be understood. Because a series of crimes has taken place at the hands of high ranking RSSB leaders.

It would all have been much easier if Gurinder et al never got involved with thousands of crore in high risk speculation.

But as they have, and these were stolen monies, we all need to get to the bottom of it, not criticize sincere efforts to do so.

[Mr. Curious]

Hey Brian and readers,

RSSB is starting to talk about the financial scandal on its own website!

https://www.rssb.org/news26.html

It looks like Gurinder and RSSB are throwing Godhwani under the bus in their version of events. [Quite predictable.]

[slave_of_GSD]

Hi One
You write
"Also a true Master always talks of His Master as the Master of all HIs disciples,
and always keep considering Himself as the disciple."

But at the Satsangs I've attended Baba Ji never mentioned Maharaji be name at all. Never "Maharaji used to say.....", "Maharaji taught me......".. Once, Maharaji did... Said....."

Never.

Posted by: Spence Tepper | October 22, 2019 at 02:25 PM

You need to attend more of his satsangs!!!!!

[Whodunit]

It's an old write up, it's been up on the website maybe a year already.

[slave_of_GSD]

@ Gumshuda Bachha by Peela Gubbara

What's wrong with buying land? It's probably a strategic decision and monetizing land parcels with little or no utility is a good thing. The cash is put to use then.

Decades ago when large tracts were acquired in Mumbai miles outside though, everybody questioned the decision. Fast-forward to current times most say there is need for more and more should have been bought back then.

Anyways land and gold investments - aren't these the favourite options for most Indians?

Dosas - Lol. Ironically the longest queues at the snack bars is for this item. Why are you complaining when the sangat asks?

2:30am siren: i miss it always. Sound sleep is a God's gift.

What's the big deal? Individuals bothered about
the sound referred to in the below don't need sirens going off.

nikse ek 'awaaj' chirag ki jyoti maheen
gyan samadhi sune aur koi sunta nahin,
paltu jo koi sune taake poore bhag,
ulta kuan gagan mein tis mein jale chirag

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Vijay
You wrote
"Spence you know not what you are talking about. He has clearly said there are no debts nothing is owed by him. If you dont believe him but instead believe the press which has published news stories Planted by Malvinder for his benefit then that’s your problem.
P.s please don’t reply to this with links to old news stories like you have done many times in the past. They are all bogus."

There are definitely two sides to the story. And it's clear than many who love Baba Ji, or who don't, can't reconcile both sides as truthful. Somebody must be lying! But maybe not.

Baba Ji may be saying what he believes to be true. If the Lord owns everything, he can't steal, merely move things around.

If these frauds really did happen, as the police and securities and exchange commission, and high court, have concluded, involving many people, all Satsangis, then there is a problem, since money was stolen from other people.

We don't have the whole picture. We conjecture, we pick what seems right.

So more investigation is needed to really get to the bottom of this.

It's important to let facts inform opinion and not the other way around.

That's why discussion and digestion of all the latest news here is important, so we consider what is really happening and try to learn from each other.

[Georgy Porgy]

Keep telling yourself that Spence. Sounds like you trying to convince yourself.

Yip, persectors of the guru are in for a big bang surprise - the big guy is innocent, good shall prevail over evil.

[K.Singh]

"Baba Charan Singh had substantial income from farm". How???.

Zamindar (landlord) abolition Act 1968 as amended by land reform act 1971limited the ownership of land to 10acres for best land,18-27 acres for second class and for the rest 27-54 acres with slightly higher limit for hilly and desert areas.

According to latest figures the land declared surplus was 7.2 million acres.The area taken over by Government is 5.6 million acres and the area actually distributed is only4.4 million acres.Thus 2.8 million acres of land declared surplus have not been distributed so far.It is known that Dera Beas head, family were alloted 1000,s of acres of land in 1970,s.Was this alotted land part of the land that remains to be distributed??.

Not a fan of Modi but if congress were in power there was no chance of Ram Rahim(Dera Sauda)Asa Ram and number of other Baba,s being sent to jail.

No way congress would have allowed Indian Courts to enforce an award made by a Tribunal of Singapore against Shivinder Singh a potential dera Beas head.

Recenly a number of bolywood actors have been prosecuted for buying farming land and i suspect Dera Beas acquiring farm land of 22 villages may well be a contravention of of Zamindar abolition act.

[slave_of_GSD]

"It is known that Dera Beas head, family were alloted 1000,s of acres of land in 1970,s."

K Singhji,

No this is not known. 7/12 or equivalent you must be aware right. Government land records. Its a must. So Right to Information (RTI) can be used. Kindly use it and present the 7/12's of this 1000's acres in the name of Charan Singh and family!

Until then why isn't it just another rant by you?

Even the eviction notice hasnt been forthcoming.

[slave_of_GSD]

"Recenly a number of bolywood actors have been prosecuted for buying farming land"

Would you know why these fellas were prosecuted?

Was it because they ended up buying agricultural land falsely claiming to be farmers?

Would you know what were the prerequisites to being able to buy and own agricultural land?

Cheers

[slave_of_GSD]

"It would all have been much easier if Gurinder et al never got involved with thousands of crore in high risk speculation.

But as they have, and these were stolen monies, we all need to get to the bottom of it, not criticize sincere efforts to do so."

Posted by: Spence Tepper | October 22, 2019 at 04:04 PM

Spence,

Is there any difference between information and facts? My English is poor so i ask.

Lots of information in the public domain via press, with the investigators and courts. All this you repeatedly state to be facts.

Also you say we all have to get to the bottom of it? Have the investigators expressed their inability to do this that we should or are required to get to the bottom of it?

Take a chill pill!!

[K.Singh]

Zamindar (landlord) abolition Act and slave_of_GSD.
Miracles were happening at Beas since Indira Gandhi became Prime Minister of India.Like no trader had enough steel for building work at Beas but Baba Charan Singh told them there will be and next lorries loaded with steel were queing up to be off loaded .(these were Government lorries) and news of this miracles spread in punjab.Upon hearing this miracle my next door neighbour man,s wife became a Radha Soami and would spend months at a time (abandoning her family) to work at Maters farm in Sirsa for free SEVA.This farm was around 500 acres when others were not allowed to keep more than 10 acres.You are not aware of your master unlawfully changing the natural flow of river Beas resulting in flooding the land of others ,being evicted from Delhi land that you can see Radha Soami followers stoning the evicting police on youtube. You have failed to mention how your master gor round the Zamindar abolition act that stops people from accumlating more than 10 acres of farming land.Your master has managed to acquire farming land belonging to 22 villages.How??.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Slave _of_GSD

You wrote
"Lots of information in the public domain via press, with the investigators and courts. All this you repeatedly state to be facts.

" Also you say we all have to get to the bottom of it? Have the investigators expressed their inability to do this that we should or are required to get to the bottom of it?"

The investigations are ongoing. All of the information is factual. But is it the truth?

A paper trail points to Gurinder et all as the recipients of the money, thousands of crore. That's a fact.

But is that paper trail accurate and truthful? It's under investigation.

So far the crimes division has concluded a lot of money was stolen, nearly six thousand crore in total. And they have concluded a lot of Satsangis, including Gurinder et all, owe that money back.

Now who perpetuated that fraud? They believe Shivinder, Malvinder, Sunny and others. But there may be more. It's under investigation.

[Vijay]

Spence your talk is not digesting and discussing the news you have for more than a year declared guilt on one side (you know which one I’m talking about).
My point is you can keep repeating the same sentence(as you have) “pay your bills” but what I’m here to tell you is that HE has said twice now that there are no bills to pay. HE does not owe anything.
So Spence maybe stop with the negative narrative and let the whole picture unravel? Surely you can do that.

[Spence Tepper]

Well Vijay, we will have to wait for the next development. Can you do that?

[Spence Tepper]

Vijay, however the evidence falls I will accept it. I love Baba Ji also. My plea for him to pay his delinquent bills was to avoid this becoming a legal and even a criminal matter. With each month of silence he becomes pulled deeper into quicksand.

Thy very belief that this won't happen is leading to delay and with delay, the debts mount and the creditors become ever more aggressive, and win greater support from the courts to redress the harm done to them.

The evidence that exists so far is that Baba Ji, his family and other RSSB leaders took hundreds of millions of dollars in fraudulent loans, money stolen from public companies. They used it for speculative investments, illegally. The varies auditors have suggested this was done in full knowledge of the fraud, as participants.

And the ones who conducted the fraud were Baba Ji's disciples with a very close relationship to him. They regard him as god. The evidence, and there is a lot of it from independent sources, is that these disciples committed fraud and siphoned stolen monies to themselves, to Baba Ji, to his family and other Satsangis.

So we have evidence from various audits. And you may choose to believe what you will. We all choose what weare going to believe.

But as for me, I think I know what will happen and am obliged to encourage avoiding the movement of a financial matter into a criminal one.

Baba Ji and family have been ordered into court by the high Court of Delhi. This could have been avoided, and what will more denial and inaction lead to?

So I say again, Baba Ji, please pay your delinquent bills, make arrangements, let us know how we can help. And then return full time to the duties Maharaji assigned you.

Because this pathway has no good exit without transparency, and timely cooperation.

Debts must be paid. Everyone knows that.

[One Initiated]

Actually Spence,
it's about you, can YOU do that ?

[Vijay]

Spence says
“Vijay, however the evidence falls I will accept it. ”
Perhaps you can start with admitting that you were wrong in proclaiming that the high court has made the judgement of guilt on the Dhillon family? Anon repeatedly mentioned that this was a direct claim from malvinders filing but you insisted that it was determined that money was owed and the court has not moved all responsibility to pay from the brothers to the Dhillon. You couldn’t have been more wrong and there were multiple back and forth comments between you and Anon on that. Here’s proof from yesterday that the onus of the debt is still on the Singh brothers.

https://barandbench.com/daiichi-sankyo-objects-singh-brothers-proposal-settle-misappropriation-funds-case-religare/

Spence I guess you will not stop with the negative narrative. Your choice. We are all responsible for our own choices as you are for yours. Good luck with that.

[Brian Hines]

Vijay, I don't read the story you linked to in the same way you did. The story says that the High Court of Delhi has rejected a settlement request with Religare. So those responsible for repaying the money taken from Religare still have to do this. Daichi knows that unless the money is repaid, the $500 million owed to Daichi by the Singh brothers can't be paid.

Seemingly Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family are still responsible for repaying what they owe, as are other people and entities named in the High Court order. Maybe you see this story as being some sort of sign that the Dhillon family is absolved of wrongdoing, but I don't see it that way.

At any rate, things are moving along with the High Court and investigations into how the money transfers occurred, and who got the money, so hopefully before too long things will be easier to understand.

[slave_of_GSD]

Hello Brian Hines,

I like your choice of words. Not overtly negative, not accusatory and definitely not a writ against any accused. I can only wish your disciples follow your footsteps.

That's not the reason I post. It's the article referenced.

Singh bros propose a settlement in the laundering of Rs2400 crores. Don't you find this strange?

A 'I AM PENNILESS" Malvinder Singh gonna payback Religare?

[Vijay]

Brian the article says that Daichi requested the court to reject the settlement talks with religare because they want the Singh brothers to pay them first. Which is my point I was making to Spence that Daichi has and is still calling the Singh brothers the debtor. This is not what Spence has claimed at one point in about June he said the debt that been moved from the Singh brothers to the Dhillon family. Which was complete misinformation. If you don’t believe me I can dig up his comments and paste them here.

[One Initiated]

Yeah Vijay,
Spence's comments are actually self contradictory.

he is pre-judging the Master in the court of his own mind.
he is unable to understand that he has been bullied by his own mind games.

And based on what evidences ? the evidences given by the culprits themselves and the media ?

On one hand he is showing his immense belief in the high courts and the legal system,
and on the other hand he is so inquisitive to be able to find Babaji and family as guilty even before the judgement and investigations.

the brothers who have been committing misdeeds since 2003 and had almost ruined the decades old reputed company (which has just now been revived to life),
believing on them who falsely claiming against the Master and objecting the Master is not a deed of the disciple. It's actually a misdeed.

Even if you don't consider that the brothers had to return some collateral back to Babaji, and the money paid was already an onus of the brothers to return to Him,
as per the media records, the money returned to Babaji was of the equation of < 100 mm whereas the brothers are ordered to pay on the tunes of 500 mm, the deal happened for 2 bn +
how are the brothers claiming that they will repay Daichi given if Babaji returns the money?

The doubting disciples have been asking the formal wordings from Babaji,
and when Dhillon family has formally and legally submitted that they don't owe
anything to Religare or brothers, then they still can not agree with.

So it's actually the problem of those disciples with their faith shaken.

They are actually not looking for the explanation from the Master,
they want Master to admit to all the allegations and they are premeditating a jail term for the Master,
under the game of the Ego they just want to prove themselves right
and relate Babaji with other fake gurus who have been caught in recent times.

That was what meant by Babaji, when He said in a recent satsang:
"If you have gone under a Master, what question do you have in life now to ask Him anyway?
You had to ask question before requesting of being the disciple. It's too late now for the question.
It's the time now to complete your work to go inside and see everything first hand."

That is also a core difference I see b/w the disciples of the west and the east,
how they perceive being a disciple of a Master is very very different.

Kaal can easily take the form of the Master and can corrupt the most advanced disciples as well,
that is what has been happening inside with Spence if I had to guess.

And by the way even if the Jail term happens for the Master,
does it change anything for the lovers ?

For me it doesn't even matter if my Master visits a brothel or spends time in Jail.
I don't even care if ~7 bn people of this world are against and points to my Master,
I don't care if Dera Beas is eliminated,
I will still bow at His feet till my last breath.

I don't even care if for this expression you would relate the kinds of me,
with those arrested fake gurus like Rampal or Ram Rahim.

I know that He is carrying forward the responsibility of running The Path of the Masters,
in a beautiful, subtle and sincere way.
And that Hazur..Soami Ji Maharaj are all very happy and are always showering immense grace on Him.

[slave_of_GSD]

One Initiated,

If Hazur erred in his choice of successor as some make out to be the case, then would you say he certainly erred in selecting a few for initiation as well.

[K.Singh]

Mr Brian Hines "Delhi High Court rejects offer of singh brothers to settle with Religare".

My understanding of this story yesterday in punjabi Ajit is that Singh Brothers applied for bail and an offer to settle with Religare but this application was objected by Delhi Police on the basis that they were prosecuting a criminal case and payment would not end their criminal case.In additional to this Police pointed to Court that their investigation was not complete.

[Jim Sutherland]

One Initiated writes,....” For me it doesn't even matter if my Master visits a brothel or spends time in Jail.
I don't even care if ~7 bn people of this world are against and points to my Master,
I don't care if Dera Beas is eliminated,
I will still bow at His feet till my last breath.”

ME: You are the perfect example of any brain washed Zombie of any radical Cult that , like Jihadist Suicide Bombers, will gladly strap on a suicide explosive vest, and blow them selves to human stew in order to please Allah and claim the reward of 72 Virgins, that the Cult Leaders promise is waiting for them in Paradis. Of all CoC Posters I have ever read here, since I first started reading here years ago, you are the #1 Extremist Brain washed Gurinder Singh Zombie of all. Gurinder should appoint you as his Successor if he ends up in Jail. You keep saying that what you see inside that no other sees, is what proves to you that Gurinder is God In Human Form on earth, and has the final say of who lives or will die. Until you reveal what you are seeing inside, none of us who still have any brain cells left intact can offer you any Professional help. Please tell us what you are experiencing inside Brother, ( or Sister?) and let us help you , and Rescue you back to sanity. “Come, let us reason together, said The Lord of Hosts.”
Jim Sutherland

[One Initiated]

Slave,

Hazur didn't err.
If HE did, HE wasn't Hazur, which is false.

No initiation/individual is wrong, every being has the equal right to merge with The One.

Trust the Path and Trust your Master more than the money in your bank.

In the last breaths, money will not matter,
love and trust in the feet of the Master will.