Read Malvinder's messages to the RSSB guru about repaying money

Given recent developments in the financial fraud scandal involving the Singh brothers (Malvinder and Shivinder), Gurinder Singh Dhillon, their relative, who is the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, and some other people, I thought it'd be good to point out my June 2019 post, "Malvinder Singh's message to the RSSB guru is moving."

(See here, here, here, and here for those developments. Malvinder, Shivinder, and the guru's right hand man, Sunil Godhwani, have been arrested. Dhillon, his family, the Singh brothers, Godhwani, and others have been ordered to appear before the High Court of Delhi on November 14.)

Actually I should have said "messages" in the blog post title, because I shared several messages from Malvinder to Dhillon that were attachments to the criminal complaint filed against the RSSB guru by Malvinder. (Scroll to nearly the end of the PDF file to find them.)

I'm re-sharing the previous blog post because some commenters on this blog have said that they doubt the RSSB guru actually owes money to Malvinder Singh and the companies that Malvinder and his brother once controlled. Malvinder's criminal complaint contains ledger entries showing what Dhillon and his family owe, and the messages in the complaint are further evidence that the Dhillons owe a lot a money.

Here's my commentary in that June blog post about the messages. 

At the end of the attachments to the criminal complaint filed by Malvinder Singh against his cousin, Gurinder Singh Dhillon (the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas), there's some messages that are both moving and enlightening -- as they cast light on the complicated financial scandal involving the Singh brothers, the Dhillon family, and others.

I'd looked at these quickly when I wrote a blog post about the criminal complaint. Today I read them more thoroughly. I've made screenshots of several messages from Malvinder to make it easier for other people to read them.

To begin with, in May 2018 Dhillon agreed to settle his debts if Malvinder and Shivinder (Malvinder's brother) would submit an accounting of what is owned to them by the guru and his family.

...Then, below is a letter addressed to the RSSB guru, whom Malvinder ("Malav") refers to with the honorofic, Babaji. This alone is interesting, since Malvinder is both a relative of Dhillon and also an initiate of his. 

You can read how Malvinder addresses Gurinder Singh Dhillon with the utmost respect, even capitalizing You and Your, seemingly in the same way "God" is capitalized by religious believers.

Malvinder is desperate to resolve the financial difficulties that are causing him so much distress. In response to Dhillon's request for the liabilities owed, Malvinder describes what Dhillon and his family need to pay.

(Two other messages I've shared that follow describe the problems involving Dhillon and his family in more detail, as does the criminal complaint itself, of course.)

Presciently, Malvinder recognizes that various investigations into financial wrongdoing have the potential to be very dangerous to the Singh brothers, the Dhillon family, and others involved with shady loans. 

He presents a way forward that, in his view, would resolve the problems. Perhaps not completely, but largely. Here's the message to Dhillon.

...Later, Malvinder turns his attention to the three companies named in a SEBI (Securities and Exchange Board of India) report detailing fraudulent transactions, after apparently failing to get a response from Dhillon to his July 12 message. 

What's significant here is that Malvinder draws a connection between (1) the fraudulent money diverted from RHC (Religare) and Fortis to the three companies named in the SEBI report (Best, Fern, Modland), and (2) who ended up with the fraudulent money -- Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family.

Several commenters on this blog have been trying to make a big deal out of the fact that the first SEBI report didn't mention Dhillon, his family, and close associates as being involved in the fraud.

However, Malvinder's criminal complaint names Dhillon, et.al., as does his messages below, where he makes it clear that the Dhillon family owes money to the three companies, and those companies owe money to Religare and Fortis. Thus this establishes a clear link between the fraud described in the SEBI report and the ultimate beneficiaries of that fraud.

...A second message was sent on November 28. Malvinder is even more desperate now to be paid the money owed him by the guru and his family, which totals $158 million just for funds diverted from the Best Group of companies.

...What's disturbing in all this is how Malvinder's relative, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, who he also considered to be his father figure and spiritual advisor, was so uncaring and unresponsive to Malvinder's entreaties.

Not exactly how one would expect a guru who is considered by devotees to be God in human form should act. In fact, it isn't even anywhere close to how a decent human being should act.

It must have been difficult for Malvinder to decide to file a criminal complaint against Dhillon, given how close they once were and how much trust Malvinder once had in the RSSB guru. But Gurinder Singh Dhillon ignored Malvinder's repeated requests for the guru to pay back the money that was owed to him and the companies he once controlled.

So whatever befalls Dhillon, he deserves it. At the moment the Dhillon family has gotten their assets frozen by the High Court of Delhi, which then will be sold by the Court. Whether they also will face criminal punishment remains to be seen.

Comments

[Vinny]

Nothingness Version 3.3 = Confiscated properties and criminals reading Sant Mat books in whitewashed prison cells with the adjoining cells prepared for their cronies to inhabit.

[Jesse]

"in May 2018 Dhillon agreed to settle his debts if Malvinder and Shivinder (Malvinder's brother) would submit an accounting of what is owned to them by the guru and his family."

He's never taken anything from anyone, and he owes nothing..... but he's willing to settle his debts.

Makes a lot of sense.

[RSSB is FINISHED]

What is really clear and beyond doubt is that the Dhillons definitely owe a lot of money and that it was acquired fraudulently.
Clearly GSD lied about not owing anyone any money.
Despite what Whodunit says, it’s completely irrelevant if RSSB money is involved.
The question is if a perfect master can also be a fraudster in his spare time.
If the answer is yes, then GSD can be considered a perfect master.
If the answer is no, then RSSB no longer has a perfect master on the Gaddi and is no longer a valid path to god.
It also questions if Charan Singh was also a perfect master as he appointed GSD. By his own admission he claims not to be a perfect master.
But at least he never committed fraud, or used his position to make a lot of money nor did he make friends with political leaders.
GSD can no longer be taken as a perfect master except by the really gullible disciples who are desperate to cling on to anything.
Time for GSD to come forward with an honest and open confession and to step down and give the gaddi to someone more worthy and not Shivinder. But they are running out of family members who are worthy, so who will get the gaddi with all the amassed wealth?
Will all the satsang centres be sitting as empty buildings in the years to come?

[RSSB is FINISHED]

GSD himself in the signed letter to Shivinder and Malav wants to settle the money owed to them.

How can he write this letter if no money is owed?
The money IS owed so everyone who is still trying to defend him needs to accept they were fooled by him and he is a conman who is good at talking

[Meditator]

He speaks unambiguously on the passions and spoken lies to fuel same and their obvious vvenomos repercussions for each one of us whether aware of these or not and latest in Delhi satsang with ease and compassion.

How is that possible for Him to have been a co-conspirator if not conspirator leave aside the perpetrator of a.stinking lavish. money deal. with s siblings of. His Guru as also. Mentor. even Now on the. Inside.

???

God knows His mysterious ways to rescue us - with fractured trusts even if hairline or mild in each one of us ddue to this except for a few who have reached past threshold limits to have unveiled inner realms. Perhaps even they may not be able to comment further or what. Next eaxactly as this may not be preordained or not as per some . Divine. Plan as it involves the GIHFs or Almighty Hinself. The One who is at His level only knows.

[JS]

Brian, this is a great post and one which I wholeheartedly agree with. Furthermore, RSSB is Finished, I completely agree with your suggestion that GSD should immediately resign his post as Head of RSSB and I have been suggesting this to my RSSB following wife.

Whatever the legal outcomes, GSD has undoubtedly been involved in financial skullduggery which is completely at odds with the actions of a man of god, holy man or God in human form (whatever his followers refer to him as). The longer he stays in is position, the more he devalues RSSB.

[JS]

The email exchange (between Malvinder and GSD) on page 62 of Malvinder’s submission to the EOW is particularly damning from my perspective

Here, Malvinder;

- Has repeatedly reaches out to GSD for the last 2 years (from July 18) to resolve “our matters”

- Sunny (Godhwani, I presume) has tried to sell “GYS portfolio in order to clear the loans and advances given by us (Malvinder & Shivinder?) to you (GSD)”

- As you are aware, the loan has two parts; a) The money given directly to family members and your entities b) Investments held for you and losses proportionate to your shareholding which were parked with us which you suggested

- As of March 2016, the outstanding balance owed by GSD was R 8,646.47 CRORE

- Malvinder goes on to plead with GSD to settle the outstanding balances owed by GSD as Malvinder was struggling to hold off creditors

Now, what I find particularly disturbing here is if someone had sent this email to me and I didn’t owe them any money, I would have replied with a firm rebuttal and more than a firm rebuke. However, all GSD can manage reply with was let’s meet up on Sunday to discuss?

This email exchange is one of the (several) pieces of evidence that has convinced me GSD is guilty. Others may well disagree, and that is their prerogative however, can any of his supporters honestly say that, after being accused of all of the above, all they would have replied back to Malvinder was “let’s meet up on Sunday to discuss”?

These are the actions of a guilty man and the truth is surely coming out in the next couple of weeks

https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/malav-eow-criminal-complaint.pdf

“Let justice be done though the heavens fall”

[J]

"Even the mastermind, if there is only one, is difficult to pinpoint...However, there is a big shadow lurking sometimes in the forefront, and sometimes in the background. This is the towering personality of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the spiritual head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), which boasts of more than four million followers across the world. Gurinder Singh’s family members are allegedly active participants in the various firms inv­olved in the fraudulent deals—wife Shabnam, and two sons, Gurpreet and Gurkeerat. RSSB forms a common link between the various actors."

"“These are meaningless allegations,” says a RSSB member. “There is no case of money laundering of the sect’s funds. RSSB’s money and assets are handled by a trust, and there can be no manipulation. Babaji’s name is being dragged into corporate scandals masterminded by others such as Godhwani, who bec­ame quite close to the Singhs in 2011.” Godhwani has largely been silent."

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/business-news-riches-to-rags-how-billionaire-ranbaxy-brothers-malvinder-and-shivinder-singh-landed-in-jail/302267

[Whodunit]

He may even resign or elect a successor or not. It's pretty much his prerogative as to how he sees fit to manage the sangats position going forward.

RSSB at this stage of evolution is at the threshold of possibly becoming a religious institution in the same way as Christianity, Islam, Sikhism etc before.

[j]

"It also questions if Charan Singh was also a perfect master as he appointed GSD. By his own admission he claims not to be a perfect master. But at least he never committed fraud, or used his position to make a lot of money nor did he make friends with political leaders."

We know from an RSSB book that Charan Singh admitted being involved in a business deal that went South, where he lost a lot of money. Whose money was it? How did Charan have money to invest in business ventures? Wasn't he supposed to be living on some kind of fixed stipend from the "family farm"? Why was he spending any of his time on speculative financial deals and investments?

I'm probably more skeptical of Charan than most exsatsangis are (and I'm not an RSSB initiate). I just don't buy the story that Charan retired in 1952 with no money in his pockets and somehow lived the life of a wealthy man for the next 38 years on his "family money."

I'm also skeptical that Charan's taking of the gaddi didn't confer extraordinary financial benefits to the Dhillon family brand. Didn't at least one of Charan's daughters marry into mega-wealthy Indian family? We see news items every day of how the son of a politician gets handed a King's wealth just because of who his father is. This is how the world works for people who hold authority. Be that authority temporal or spiritual it makes no difference.

And despite all the rhetoric about the Guru seeing everyone equally, it's pretty clear that all gurus put their family first. Charan is the first RSSB guru to directly appoint a family member. Kirpal Singh swore he'd never appointed a family member as his successor, but did so anyway, as that successor appointed his son as well.

And as for money? Somehow the Dhillon family became tremendously wealthy, and in part from one source, we know about beyond any doubt: the gifts of billions of dollars from the satsangi Singh bros. back when they had it money to give away.

In like manner, somehow Rajinder Singh has also become quite wealthy despite no employment for the last 30 years.

We recently learned that Prabhupada of the Hare Krishnas was taking large sums of money his followers were conning for Krishna and giving it to his family in India. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was doing the same thing with the vast wealth of the TM movement. The real mantra for the Indian guru has always been family first.

Anyway, back to Charan Singh. When I read his writings and mull his career as guru, I see a man whose entire motivation wasn't to do the will of God but to please his family. And for all I know, maybe pleasing your family is the highest dharma. Maybe it's the noblest and most truly egoless role for any human to play in this strange theater onto which we've been thrust. Then again, maybe it's not. The spiritual giants named Gautama and Jesus both told their families to piss off. For better or worse, that spirit is gone from the path of the masters.

[RSSB is FINISHED]

Whodunit, you were a supporter of GSD before, and now it looks like you are seeing the cracks appear and reevaluating the situation. That is the intelligent thing to do. Nothing wrong with faith unless it is misplaced
Once you see it’s misplaced it is time to change

[K.Singh]

Someone asked Baba Charan Singh "What was your happiest day" . Do not know what was my happiest day but i know what was my turning up at the funeral of Sardar Bahadur jagat Singh and being told i was named to be next Dera head. I was shocked as a young barrister,only recently i was asked by Congress party to stand for parlamentry elections and i refused.i did not want to quit my practice but i was pressured by family and friends and i cried and cried at inauguration ceremony,....................It all starts and ends with politics and money.Charan Singh was a relunctant Baba but political powers were there to exploit Dera,s to be used against traditional Gurdwaras.Congress party would fund any Dera in India with potential as vote bank and money laundering.Up untill 2000 it was not possible to take more than 50 rupees out of India only way was to use other methods like give rupees in india and get foreign currency from indians living abroad.Indira gandhi had set up Dera,s to give them dodgy money in India and be paid by the Dera centres abroad in foreign currency.For this service Dera,s were given Government land for giveaway prices.

[RSSB is FINISHED]

J,
I don’t think it’s a crime to run a business.
Any business can suffer losses and only few businesses make it over the long term. That is no reflection on Charan Singh. I believe his personal income from the farm was substantial.

Also marrying into a wealthy family is not an issue.

He never used his position to gain political favours in fact he made it clear that satsangis should vote for whoever they choose. He also made it clear that he was simply doing his duty and never claimed any special powers.

[Georgy Porgy]

Judas

Sold his soul and now his guru to save his own skin. There’s no hope. Fkd.

[PJ]

Agree with all these comments.

I will add though, that meditation seems to work, as does seva. I can elaborate on what I mean by 'work', but my current theory on all of this is:

These 'gurus' have coopted and branded a working technique, interpolating themselves into the formula for their own gain.

Remember, a surprising amount of sant mat is from the oldest known religion. Irrespective of 'masters', much of it is true in my view. I'm keen on learning everyone else's theories on this as they appear on this blog. I'm not giving up on my search for the truth, I'm continuing my research.

[JS]

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/amp/business-news-riches-to-rags-how-billionaire-ranbaxy-brothers-malvinder-and-shivinder-singh-landed-in-jail/302267?__twitter_impression=true

[modi_bhakt]

Someone asked Baba Charan Singh "What was your happiest day" . Do not know what was my happiest day but i know what was my turning up at the funeral of Sardar Bahadur jagat Singh and being told i was named to be next Dera head. I was shocked as a young barrister,only recently i was asked by Congress party to stand for parlamentry elections and i refused.i did not want to quit my practice but i was pressured by family and friends and i cried and cried at inauguration ceremony,....................It all starts and ends with politics and money.Charan Singh was a relunctant Baba but political powers were there to exploit Dera,s to be used against traditional Gurdwaras.Congress party would fund any Dera in India with potential as vote bank and money laundering.Up untill 2000 it was not possible to take more than 50 rupees out of India only way was to use other methods like give rupees in india and get foreign currency from indians living abroad.Indira gandhi had set up Dera,s to give them dodgy money in India and be paid by the Dera centres abroad in foreign currency.For this service Dera,s were given Government land for giveaway prices.

Posted by: K.Singh | October 19, 2019 at 02:42 AM

And am sure you have irrefutable evidence to back up all your statements. Am salivating just thinking I will have it all in my possession.

Can you email me every little bit of evidence you have which corroborates everything you have said in here in the last couple of days that you have graced this blog. Including the eviction notice.

Thanks in advance.

Being a modi_bhakt, anything which links Congress to corruption is very welcome to my master Modiji. It might get me a ticket for state elections at least.

Just make it quick is my humble request to you Mr Singh!

[modi_bhakt]

Funny isn't it. Two contradictory successive posts from RSSB baiters/haters or whatever else you wanna call yourselves.

Come on guys - just get together and agree amongst yourselves.

Hey Jesse,

You are a star in here. Probably the only one to make a prediction and still sticking to it. And i am pretty sure you will accept any failure here with utmost grace. It's just a gut. So don't disappoint me please.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi J
Thanks for posting this article. It's an excellent summary.

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/business-news-riches-to-rags-how-billionaire-ranbaxy-brothers-malvinder-and-shivinder-singh-landed-in-jail/302267

"One estimate is that Rs 2,300-2,700 crore was looted to buy commercial properties in various cities, including in Saket, New Delhi. Shabnam Dhillon, wife of the RSSB guru, was a dir­ector in some of the largest recipients."

[RSSB is FINISHED]

J,
It’s not certain that kirpal appointed a family member. There were more than 6 people claiming to be the successor and nobody knows who he really chose or if in fact he chose more than one as he always said he wanted many ambassadors

[Whodunit]

Nope (Osho) - RSSB is Finished
I don't see cracks
I see reality transpiring, history explicitly being fulfilled (hukum - mauj - the will as it is deemed fit to play out)

History is full of it

As Huzur Charan Grewal had to adapt and adopt the will of his own masters wishes to undertake the responsibility of Soami Ji's and Jaimal Singh's patronage shepherding their santmat, so did Gurinder have to do likewise.

As did those succumbed to Ceasars and Emperors and societal laws and judgment through the annals of history.

Arjan's execution by emperor Jahangir for refusal to bow to Muslim indoctrination - (blasphemy)

Christ's crucifixion by religious leaders for non renunciation of proclamation that he was embodiment of Godhood. (blasphemy)

Mansur's imprisonment torture and execution by religious ruling classes of Baghdad for announcement he was embodiment of the Truth. (blasphemy)

Sarmad beheaded by Aurungzeb for non recital of full Muslim Kalma and for sitting on Delhi Palace court steps entirely naked. (blasphemy)

Gurinder, being slandered, castigated and maligned by the know it all intelligentsia of the CotC klux klan, along with some own family members, is tantamount to recognize that like Socrates, Christ, Mansur, Sarmad, and many others before him, don't give two hoots about society's so called moralistic indignation.

He will do what it takes as deemed fit to fulfill the will of history's injunction as it plays out its cause.

Because like Christ, John the Baptist, Socrates, Mansur, Sarmad and all those who have traveled beyond the constraints of intellectualized reasoning know how it cuts whenever it's required to separate wheat from chaff,

Such is the mauj that true saints adopt and fulfill their participation in its unrelenting exacting willing condition.

[Jesse]

"We recently learned that Prabhupada of the Hare Krishnas was taking large sums of money his followers were conning for Krishna and giving it to his family in India. "

J, do you have any links to stories about this?

[slave_of_GSD]

Remember, a surprising amount of sant mat is from the oldest known religion.

Posted by: PJ | October 19, 2019 at 05:38 AM

And which is this oldest known religion?

Thanks

[j]

"I don’t think it’s a crime to run a business. Any business can suffer losses and only few businesses make it over the long term. That is no reflection on Charan Singh."

I wouldn't go as far to say it's no reflection, especially given that we're still being told by current supporters of Gurinder Singh that his role as RSSB guru has involved absolutely no connections with worldly, capitalistic commercial enterprises. It's basically the same story that Charan promoted. THat is, when he took the gaddi, he "retired" from his career as a breadwinner to serve full time as a guru. But it's clear now that we were told a fable about what both Charan and Gurinder were doing with their time when they weren't giving darshan or inspecting piles of chapattis. Just how much time did Charan give to money-making ventures? We may never know, but we do know he, like his nephew, dabbled in speculative financial schemes. As for where Charan got the money to invest in these ventures, that's a mystery.
But for all those who condemn Gurinder as being a businessman over being a guru, it's time to stop giving Charan a pass. He also was involved in business, and for all we know, he set an example or gave Gurinder a green light to do likewise.

"I believe his personal income from the farm was substantial."

Perhaps it was, but that's a matter that all satsangis have to take on faith. None of us knows for certain how much money Charan got from this farm, what he did to earn it, or if there were other sources of income through the Dhillon family for quid pro quo services rendered by the guru. Anyway, does anyone really believe Charan worked in any capacity on or for that farm? When this is brought up satsangis generally say that things are different in Indian families and is perfectly OK if family members support others. It's funny though how this concept of financial support goes against the standard sant mat ethics that Charan and other RSSB gurus constantly preached about how we must each financially support ourselves.

But back again to this family farm: does anyone know where the money came from to buy all this land? Apparently, it belonged to Sawan Singh, some portion of it anyway. If this farm was so profitable during Charan's days of glory that it could support multiple families in grand style, with one family doing zero for its upkeep, I have to wonder why Sawan spent years in the Indian Army when he could have been living as a wealthy gentleman farmer? If my meaning isn't clear here, I have to wonder if this family farm somehow magically grew in size like Jack's beans through Sawan's status as satguru of Beas. All the stories we've been told about this family farm are rather hard for me to believe, including the one that Charan had to quit his law practice to "help his brother run the farm."

"Also marrying into a wealthy family is not an issue."

What then explains how it came to pass? Why did the scion of an Uber wealthy Indian family choose the daughter of a guy who quit an undistinguished law practice in his early 30s to ostensibly manage a farm? Was it that Indian families are known for letting their children marry for love, irrespective of social position or wealth? Come on. That marriage happened only because the Dhillon family became Punjab royalty when Charan accepted the gaddi.

"He never used his position to gain political favours in fact he made it clear that satsangis should vote for whoever they choose."

We have no clear evidence that either Charan or Gurinder "used their position to gain political favors." If Gurinder has done this, there's no reason to believe Charan didn't either, especially given what we know about the dera's growth and land development that apparently never meets any meaningful legal opposition when it mows over Indian landowners in its way. What was greasing the skids of the dera's growth during Charan's day? I think we're naive if we believe that any of these gurus isn't playing politics to some extent.

"He also made it clear that he was simply doing his duty and never claimed any special powers."

Charan never claimed he couldn't exercise special powers, and he published many thousands of RSSB books that promoted the idea that the RSSB guru could read our minds, protect us from harm, predict the future and work all kinds of miracles if he wanted to. The concept of the guru as God has always been at the bedrock of RSSB theology, and Charan never explicitly said this concept was incorrect.

As for Kirpal Singh appointing a family member (his son Darshan Singh Duggal), a will was produced proclaiming this to be so, but it's a will that some people simply chose not to believe. Some may say that the will was legally illegitimate, but that was the argument that Kirpal himself made about the will that appointed Jagat successor to Sawan. Sawan's legitimacy was also contested to some extent by certain members of the sant mat council, and Jaimal Singh's legitimacy was also contested by certain Agra satsangis. They pointed out that Jaimal had received no authorization from Shiv Dayal Singh whatsoever. Jaimal in turn contested Rai Saligram's authority, even though one of the few things we know about Shiv Daya. is that he did appoint Saligram to carry on teaching sant mat. Finally, there are those in the Tulsi Sahib camp who say Shiv Dayal was a self-appointed upstart.

Anyway, isn't it funny that all the people opposed to the idea that Kirpal appointed a family member are non-relatives? Kirpal's family members had no problem with Kirpal contradicting his early 1960's statement that his successor would never come from his family. Given that Rajinder is now quite wealthy with no job, it's not hard to understand.

Conclusion? Every sant mat guru claims that there's no doubt whatsoever that he and only he is the rightful successor, and in every case it's found that their stories are suspect. All sant mat guru are covert businessmen, they all put their family first, and they all end up getting wealthy.

[Jesse]

modi_bhakt, I'm a star. Full stop. Here there and everywhere. And I won't call myself a master or god (even though I recommend that you do) but I'm going on a world tour to initiate people into secret meditation practices that bring them to god. You can read a bit about it in a book called Finding God by Worshiping Saints by Saint Jesse the God. Just letting you know, as a totally normal guy just like you.

As for my prediction, who cares if it's wrong or right? I certainly don't. It's just the most obvious prediction based on the pattern we've seen a million times in India. Guru gets busted in scandal. Guru goes to jail. People fight police and riot. A bunch of deaths happen. Shops are burnt down. Everyone pretends like nothing happened for the next 20 years and continue worshiping human being they've never met.

There's no way I can accept failure with grace (whatever you meant by that) because I can't fail here. Gurinder might provide documents tomorrow to exculpate himself and continue with his mission of calling himself god 50 ways, and calling himself not-god 1 way to keep us on our toes.

[Whodunit]

Gurinder never called himself God, or even messenger or guru or any such title ever, it's only fake disciples who put such words in his mouth as you do.

[K.Singh]

J (Baba Sawan Singh,s Land).
Baba Sawan Singh had 8 acres of farming land and a house in village near Amritsar. It was sold circa 2000 by Nimmi Singh(Nirmal Kaur) daughter of Baba Charan Singh to a Non resident who was going to use land for fish farm.At that time Baba Dhillon had made a press staement that he was not happy( fish issue).At that time he was not so friendly with singh brothers as even though Bhai Mohan (Ranbaxy)Singh died in 1999,he had left his friend (Brar)in charge in his will untill the boys were fully trained and wise enough to take over Ranbaxy.Brar was ousted by Baba Dhillon and he became the caretaker by leaving his follower Sunil Godhwani in charge.

[Um]

@ J.
Whether what you write is correct or not is difficult to say … it would be something for research journalists of known standard, or academic researchers, to find out. … follow the money!

What you write is more or less the situation behind many welfare organisations, religions etc.

What should an ordinary believer do?

Stop addressing the divine in their prayers as long it is not clear what happens within the Christian, Islamic, Buddhist and Hinduist organisations with the issues you wrote abour??

Are you saying that their prayers are useless because these organisations are all in one way or another involved in the opposite they preach…… Just delving in the history of Tibetan Buddhist organisations leaves one without words.

Are you saying with Marx and Lenin etc that any form of religion is opium for the people and a kind of crime.

A while ago someine wrote… if God doesn't exist he should be invented to give sollace to the poor.

Tell us J.

[Jesse]

"Gurinder never called himself God"

Incorrect. Try again.

[J]

"We recently learned that Prabhupada of the Hare Krishnas was taking large sums of money his followers were conning for Krishna and giving it to his family in India. "

I read it here: https://www.amazon.com/Swami-Strange-Land-Krishna-Came/dp/1608876446/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?keywords=srila+prabhupada+bio&qid=1571537315&sr=8-1-fkmr1

I'm not sure if there's also an online reference to this part of Prabhupada's life, but this biography goes very deeply into the Swami's life and family.

[J]

"What should an ordinary believer do? Stop addressing the divine in their prayers as long it is not clear what happens within the Christian, Islamic, Buddhist and Hinduist organizations with the issues you wrote about??"

Consider again what I wrote about Sant mat (I don't think I mentioned anything about other religious orgs!). I didn't really allege financial or emotional skullduggery, but only noted that

Guruships do confer power and authority on the guru and his family, and this ultimately leads to accumulations of wealth and land and the tendency toward nepotism. Is the motivation of the parties involved necessarily avaricious or evil? They could be, but the motivations might be entirely self-less. In other words, I don't believe Kirpal or Sawan or Charan were gurus because they wanted to build a family dynasty. At least I don't believe they started out as gurus with that motivation. But I do think that power will corrupt in one way or another, and all the gurus made compromises with the truth for the sake of keeping the machine going. They certainly all have promoted stories about themselves being the only true guru, and treat the other sant mat gurus as non-entities as best. Note I'm not picking on the RSSB gurus - - ALL the sant mat gurus from Shiv Dayal to Harold Klemp play this game. Oh btw, Harold Klemp is quite wealthy too.

My larger point is that I don't believe (at this point anyway) that Gurinder is necessarily any different or worse than Charan or Sawan. Well, I take that back, since it does seem that Gurinder did borrow a million from a filmmaker and refuse to pay it back, which if true is an act that does put him in a class of his own. But then again, I don't think any of us know the full story of Charan's finances or Sawan's finances for that matter. We were just told a story about a magical farm that came out of nowhere that grew magical plants that apparently sprouted 100,000 rupee notes come harvest time every year.

Just occurred to me I don't know the story of Gurinder's family money. Perhaps it too came from the same magic farm.

Well, that's enough sarcasm. Maybe sant mat practice doesn't need to depend on Guru Bhakti. Have you ever read Light on Anand Yoga by Sant mat guru Shiv Brat Lal? I don't he mentions guru bhakti once:
https://www.scribd.com/document/99737428/Light-On-Ananda-Yoga

[Whodunit]

Show your source where Gurinder Singh ever called himself 'God'. Or even a representative of God.
Nefarious allusion to support your agendas of denigrating don't count.

Contrary to what you hang your reactive insecurities onto, Gurinder has often challenged the seeking throngs to be sure he's not a charlatan or a fraud. He has often been known to question the audiences to ascertain for themselves whether he's a non realized fraud and no guru of any kind at all.

[Whodunit]

J your allegations that Charan or Sawan or Gurinder for that matter have ever claimed that 'They certainly all have promoted stories about themselves being the only true guru, and treat the other sant mat gurus as nonentities' is entirely false.

Whenever anyone has brought up any mention of other paths or teachings to any of the RSSB gurus since Jaimal Singh, they have always categorically stated that they are in No position to give any opinion on any other path or teaching or techniques or gurus of any other systems or beliefs.

Not ever have any Sant Mat guru of the Beas line Ever valued their teaching as superior to any other. They have Always deferred their position as being neutral in their own assessment that they have neither interest nor influence in any way as to ascertain other paths or gurus claims to higher awareness or realization.

[Daljit]

@Whodunit

The very process of assuming the role of Guru assumes all the qualities of a Guru.
In Indian context Guru is God. There is even a popular saying that if Guru and God both appear before me then I will bow to the Guru first.

If A = B and B = C then A =C
If A = GSD
B = Guru
C = God
RSSB keeps on saying A=B and in the Indian context B=C
Read various books officially being published by RSSB which say how high on pedestal Guru should be kept.

I saw this happening at Sr Sri Ravi Shankar's place too
When I asked why do they say Jai Guru Dev they said that they are referring to God (as Guru) and not to Sri Sri.
Later when I asked who is their Guru and then they said that it is Sri Sri :)
It is just a play of words. When questioned you can hide behind words.

This is the reason saints like Krishnamurthi, Sai Baba, Ramanna Maharishsi etc did not start a gaddi or Gurudom.

[j]

"whenever anyone has brought up any mention of other paths or teachings to any of the RSSB gurus since Jaimal Singh, they have always categorically stated that they are in No position to give any opinion on any other path or teaching or techniques or gurus of any other systems or beliefs."

Sorry, but I don't believe this is true. Sant mat is based on what's written in Sar Bachan, which is a religious treatise that categorically states that only surat Shabd yoga with the aegis of a perfect master is the way to salvation. Sant mat gurus since Saligram have tried to make the case that all religions were once "sant mat' in substance but were later corrupted, but this is a ludicrous claim that no scholar of religion puts any stock in whatsoever.

I've heard Charan Singh on tape bitterly condemn all priests as "only carrying about the size of their congregation," bitterly mock Hindus for devotion to Rama, and bitterly ridicule Buddhist beliefs in the Bodhisattva ideal. On the flip side, I've never once heard or read Charan say even one positive thing about any religious leader except those in his lineage.