Open Thread 25 (free speech for comments)

Here's a new Open Thread.

I appreciate that off-topic comments have been going in a previous Open Thread. As noted before, it's good to have comments in a regular blog post related to its subject, and it's also good to have a place where almost anything goes in regard to sharing ideas, feelings, experiences, and such. That place is an Open Thread.

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Remember that I'm moderating comments, so it could take a while for your comment to be published. Almost every comment submitted to an Open Thread will be approved. Personal attacks on someone are an exception. Argue with ideas, not insults.

Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. You can always find an Open Thread that way.

So if you're a believer in some form of religion, mysticism, or spirituality, this is where you can put your "praise God," "praise Guru," or "praise _______" comments.

Comments

[Jesse]

"Baba Ji, I've been meditating for 20 years and finally you've shown me your astral form. So now that I've received this rare once in a million lifetimes blessing, instead of carrying my fat soul to heaven, could your radiant astral miracle mind spend some precious time and please tell me exactly how much money you stole, and how many aspirin I should take?

Heaven, salvation, eternal bliss in God's presence can all wait. Tell me the truth about aspirin and money laundering, oh lord."

[Jesse]

"Sant mat is an EASTERN religionand cannot be understood by people of the west!!!
what was the saying about the west and the east …. they never ..."

To much of what is now Christendom, Christianity was an Eastern religion at one point as well.

I think the insanity caused by RS and other cults in western people is due to unchangeable aspects of culture, not the religious teachings per-se. We have our own gurus and meditations in the west which work very well. The gurus are often far more analytical and expect much less to be believed, and they especially don't expect to be considered holy. Look at Eckhard Tolle for example. Or even in the east, Supreme Master Ching Hai's methods and aesthetics resonate much better with the Vietnamese.

It's simply not in our western blood to worship men, and it causes conflict in our minds when we're expected to. So far, not a single Indian guru has been able to understand the west (because the gurus are all arrogant, and almost invariably uneducated dolts. But the educated ones are no better. See Belur Math's touring brainiacs as examples).

They just try to force their views on us like Christian missionaries did to them, which is why nearly everyone who gets into the realm of yoga and meditation eventually leaves, often mentally broken and blah blah some cliche about empty shells of their former selves or whatever.

We should be a lot less concerned about trying to fit in to foreign religions, and more concerned about when mass migration with its baggage of unavoidable and inevitable violent clash of cultures leads to a war that kills all of us. Cause you know, that'll suck really, really, really bad, and not even the Koch brothers and all the other greedy psychos be able to escape the terror they initiated.

[um]

@ Jesse
Whether it is in our blood or culture to worship i don't know.

Personally I am not able to admire anything or anybody if I cannot relate to it. Cakes one cannot taste are of little value, so to say.
And in eating cakes ir doesn't matter whether the maker is famous or he and his products are admired by the masses. If the cakes taste good, it just tastes good.

If one is in a movie one loses the awareness of self and the surroundings, be lost in the drama shown on the screen. Normally one wake up after the movie omes to an end. If one wakes up in the meantime it is not that funny. One becomes aware o oneself, and the surroundings in the theatre … a rather noisy and smelly experience depending where one was seeing the movie. …. and … the movie itself has lost all its attraction it had before and ends up as fast moving visions and noises.

One can get up and leave the theatre but that is not appreciated nor to speak to the people next to one. Calming down, and waiting for the end to come is the best remedy.

Many things in the world do resemble these movies, certainly poltics and religion. Once lost the contact with the drama it is difficult to regain the contact.

All things that have their root in "hot" climates will die out in colder zones within 3 to for generations. Bollywood and mekka cannot last in the northern hemisphere

[Jesse]

"All things that have their root in "hot" climates will die out in colder zones within 3 to for generations"

Does Christianity not count? What about people? Because I live in one of the coldest parts of USA, and we definitely have families originating from warmer climates who've been here more than 3 generations.

[um]

@ jesse
Ask those people if they are still the same as they ancestors.

Plants from other climates, if they survive the first generation, will tend to adapt themselves. White sage, is from hotter climate and will not survive the winters in northern countries … but … these days one can buy white sage that will survive the winter.

In colder climates the emotions have to calm down otherwise one cannot live in small rooms for longer periods in the dark winter.

[Spence Tepper]

Welcome one and all
To my fabulous downfall!

Welcome to my flaming dumpster!

Warm you hand and your heart
As my life falls apart
You once loved my message
Now come enjoy my wreckage

Welcome to my flaming dumpster

Before my light would inspire
Now its one big dumpster fire
You'd think I'd learned my lesson
But it's you I'm really testin' ;)

Welcome to my flaming dumpster

I've packed a lot of you in this fiery bin
Some call it virtue, others call it sin
But when your in it upside down
You see my smile as a frown

Welcome to my flaming dumpster

Now don't stand too close
Or you might become toast
Don't look too deep into the flames
You might find its really you in this hot place

And I'm the guy who was looking in
Pulling you out like any decent Samaritan.

Yeah you had it wrong...
That's OK

What can you expect when it keeps getting hotter?
How can you see straight when you're burning under water?

My trash bin
Is just your taxi in.
I'm burning all your nonstop crap.
And yah, you're welcome for all that.

Welcome to my flaming dumpster!

[🐅🐆🐂]

(1) The High Court says that Dhillon and his family owe no money at all.=

Baba Ji said it already : There is no debt

777

[Jen]

You've lost the plot Spence. Here I am stuck inside unable to face the dark smokey air which is making people ill and you are making a joke out of catastrophic fire events. Hope you burn in hell Spence.

A Burning Philosophical Question

https://medium.com/@jpaulreed/a-burning-philosophical-question-94acd3f30e8c

[Spence Tepper]

Jen don't blame me for the fires in Australia.

I'm sorry you are stuck inside, for the smoke and the devastation.

But all life comes to a disastrous end. Consider how your friends, parents, pets, and yes even children have died. It is not generally great. When each one passed, their entire world crashed and burned to ashes. What you are witnessing now out your window happens to all life in less dramatic but equally lethal ways every moment of every day, across the globe. We are all burning in that dumpster fire.

So I'm sorry. But please don't blame me personally. You had / have a guru for that.

If you can blame me for stuff way above my pay grade, then you have no legitimacy blaming any one else here for doing the same with Gurinder. At least they are attending to the right guy.

So Jen, I hope you bask in heaven!!

[💖🔥.💥.🔥.💖]

About the ultimate Creator and Jesse s Warm & Cold

To say He Always was or is everywhere,
these kind of things are
Is a little tiny because in fact

There is no time but just HE exists
And everything we are aware of is HIM/HER

He leads a very simple life and wants only One Thing
But that is old News, but not Fake news :
SHE wants LOVE , nothing more, nothing less

So SHE invented the Rule : You go Where your Heart is now!

This rule applies to ALL in evolution
And can be consumed in the 7-Chakra Entity (f. I. humans ) at best

The word Heart🔥can best be interpreted : "Where your Chakras are". 🔥
Easier : Which Chakra is most often energised. 🔥
Now, . . . SHE placed herself in the highest Chakra
The Crown and hopes that we reside there also often
When it happens, HE is flabbergasted ( and WE experience it)

Underway there is the “DO NO HARM” rule like an access ticket
Because the harm we do comes back and pulls us down
Pulls even down in evolution
And Who wants to re-be a planet, a galaxy . . . . stuff from the past is that

So , . . . Let’s be (with)HIM, Let’s be HER

Underway here are so many sweet cadeaus ( gifts )
Like helping our loved ones in HIS direction
And seeing it happen
HIS doings also start to be spectaculair for the new Lover
Like I wrote about here : the miracles on a regulair base
The need to know stuff, the bright happiness, The SONG

Let s go where our hart is

777

[Jesse]

"I KNOW MY Astral body has a mind of its own, and operates outside of Jim’s Cage, and never tells Jim where it’s going, what it’s doing, after it returns from each adventure"

So your "astral body" is something that you watch. A foreign object. Like a movie. And you experience completely different things than your astral body.

Then when you die, that astral body will just go off on its own and forget you ever existed.

[Jesse]

"the first principle of spirituality, the minimum condition : do no harm."

Most of the Sikh gurus engaged in war. Krishna killed people. I don't think "do no harm" is necessary for spirituality, because spirituality is a vague word.

"Would a true Holyman, a man of god, be involved (as he has now even admitted himself) in such financial skullduggery?"

Yeah, why not. Maybe true spirituality absolutely requires us to be criminally violent. Who knows. Maybe the higher heaven Sawan Singh wanted access to was Valhalla and he was just too weak to fight and get there.

The problem isn't whether or not Gurinder lives up to some sort of modern humanist morality that we call spirituality. It's whether or not he lives by his own stated rules which we can find in his book publishers many selections. And as we know, he doesn't live up to those rules.

[💥 💖💖 💥]

November 12
Affidavit of Gurinder Singh That HE in no way
used super-natural powers to let succeed worldly investments
WOW. FOR THAT. !!! 💥 cid:16E01F8D-5A31-489C-BFAC-EF373CA3EFC3

As I stated here 3 or 5 times already that a GIHF. is NOT. All-knowing
but knows ONLY "on a need to know basis" as defined by HIS Master
in this case MaharaJI Charan Singh , . . . . . which knowledge
Charan gives to ALL INITIATES, again "on a need to know basis"
which might be a lot, nothing or stuff between.

Now the high court can focus on the two brothers and if moneys were siphoned away.
I m praying for them , remembering both at their ages of around 3 years
in MaharajI's company at Delhi Airport when we waited for luggage
and he pointed to me when my Samsonite passed by.
( also on a need to know basis, . . . which can be terrific

777

Here is a secret
SatGurus of the highest level when giving Darshan, in effect
they receive Darshan
They see great light from sincere God Loving disciples
and reflect / multiply with radiating LOVE. 🙏 back to them

I described here years ago when several times I received that Love Beam
from a mile distance
and how modern communications in are well suited for Thristy. ( Sd, HD, 4K > 32K )
for the willing

Guys here
if you knew what you are fighting against. .😘. . . . so awesome

[Jim Sutherland]

Jessie writes,....” Then when you die, that astral body will just go off on its own and forget you ever existed.”

Me: No, Son, my Astral body will ascend to the next level as soon as all karmas are balanced. It will ascend or project to my Causal body, which is my Higher Soul Self, where ALL of my past life incarnations that form Jim’s present Personality are archived. All Astral bodies die and disintegrate, but take 1000-3000 linear earth years.,...according to a Ishwar Puri. Causal Bodies also eventual die as well, and disintegrate after ascending to Sach Khand, but that lasts millions of linear earth years. not to worry. You have plenty of time left to sort it all out.
Cheers,
Jim

[anami]

Trump in Sach Khand: "I subpoena Grinder Sing Dillon to release his Tax Returns! I'm the One with Presidential Immaturity (forever)....not him!

[🐪 -]

JM wrote :
"" I'm just thinking... what possible motivation could the brothers have for embezzling hundreds of millions. ""

I suggested this many times here
Old verbal commitments with Mohan and THIS was the moment to honour their obligations

It's done all the time when private companies go public

Why the correction officer holded Shivinder by his testicals ?
Is that regulair in India?

7

[Spence Tepper]

Physical reality may in fact be subjective! According to recent studies in quantum physics.

https://futurism.com/quantum-research-reality-subjective/amp

[💚💙 💚💖➽🔥 🎥💖 > 💥]

So nice Spence

At last a super-hyper- mega-positioning of a SatGuru explained

Now wait a little longer for 100QUBIT s opinion
( I guess the Chinese will be the first and at the same time subdued
)
We will lose some of our inefficient free will
OMG
Fantastic developments

777

[Whodunit]

Nobody understands what consciousness is or how it works. Nobody understands quantum mechanics either. Could that be more than coincidence?

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170215-the-strange-link-between-the-human-mind-and-quantum-physics?ocid=ww.social.link.facebook

[Whodunit]

"Some scientists think we already understand what consciousness is, or that it is a mere illusion. But many others feel we have not grasped where consciousness comes from at all"

'When this "observer effect" was first noticed by the early pioneers of quantum theory, they were deeply troubled. It seemed to undermine the basic assumption behind all science: that there is an objective world out there, irrespective of us. If the way the world behaves depends on how – or if – we look at it, what can "reality" really mean?'

[Whodunit]

'Physicists are not terribly comfortable with finding themselves inside their theories. Most hope that consciousness and the brain can be kept out of quantum theory, and perhaps vice versa. After all, we do not even know what consciousness is, let alone have a theory to describe it.'

"Every line of thought on the relationship of consciousness to physics runs into deep trouble," says Adrian Kent.

[💦💙 💙💦]

But many others feel we have not grasped where consciousness comes from at all.

I would be very simple
if they would dare the axioma , . . . Truth . .

that each consciousness IS THE CREATOR -TOTALLY

Then suddenly everything becomes clear with a solid theory they
can work with
We just have to remove dust, dirt amnesia and next "time" by Love (Sound)
An exact definition of Sant Mat and it s tools

777

-

[💦]

A great help would be the astounding (new) fact & proof

that two Galaxies at 200 Million Lightyears from each other are communicating,
as if they are directed by the same force, the same ""second"" even

Breath/5th chakra technics can bring one there ( @dark energies )
even by the heart chakra religions

Sant Mat aims much higher - End our thoughts by Love for the Sound

+. don t hurt a thing

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey 777

All this crying is gonna make the blog soggy!

‘That each consciousness IS THE CREATOR - TOTALLY’

Well, well - if that ain’t what the soul is then more rain falls up then falls down!

Both individuation and universal simultaneously, well that’s my take on it - blows the mind I reckon.

All this stuff about separate pieces trying to find their way home = a diversion imo.

Also, as I’ve been slowing moving through the ‘Recognition Sutras’ it seems that these teachings have similarities with some of what you get in Sant Mat - only more in depth with both a top down and a bottom up approach to things. At the moment it even seems to me that Sant Mat may well have come out of teachings such as these (Kashmir Shaivism), as folks like Manjit have mentioned in earlier posts.

Further To quote Wallis (p.89/90) -
‘In the act of perceiving, the perceiver is subtly changed by what s/he perceives, and what s/he perceives is changed as a result of being perceived, and this is constantly happening, moment to moment in an endless flux - the infinite dance of awareness…..
…what you bring to any given experience (which of course is your entire history) profoundly shapes the nature of that experience …… the object affects your consciousness, and your consciousness affects the object …..’

In regard to being aware/paying attention to this he [Wallis]says:
‘This intimate of a relationship between subject and object is only possible, the Tantrikas argue, if they are two aspects of one reality, and therefore they sought, through awareness-cultivation techniques, to realise each object of experience in its true nature: as a vibration of Awareness’.

Wallis then goes on to draw parallels between these teachings and Quantum Mechanics:
‘ …. There is no such thing as observer-independent reality. In other words, we cannot ever know the purely ‘objective’ or unobserved nature of a thing, because it has no such nature…. If you wish to experience reality differently, you must radically reconfigure the way in which you perceive …'

I think this is good stuff.

Best wishes

[Whodunit]

Intellect is a hindrance not a boon

[Jesse]

"Intellect is a hindrance not a boon"

A hindrance to what, and a boon to what? It certainly helped Gurinder amass a huge amount of wealth that the less intelligent would never have been able to accumulate.

[Whodunit]

A hindrance to seek and know truth
It's limited in its capacity to look beyond the world of human concept and material illusion
One man's truth is another's lie
It's not designed for recognition of truth only for dissecting and discrimination of 'facts' to determine 'reality' by means of deduction, not by direct value of experience or sight.
To know what truth is one has to use other faculties that can penetrate the veil of the illusory nature
As even scientists are trying to do today using 'primitive' physical apparatus, however these applications as 'advanced' as they proposed to be are yet inadequate to see beyond the veil of the physical fabric of 'gross' material existence.

[🌺🌺.🌺]

". " There is a famous line from one of the upanishads that goes "guru brahma guru vishnu guru devo maheshwara". " "

Jesse compare this with your former story , the million of ants being Indras

This is the same truth as I asked to work with as an axioma
Good quantum computers will grap this TRUTH earlier than our brains

Whahabi fundamentalist will seek to destroy this high_qubit devices
like they tried to kill the mystics who told us this in all ages

Think a little bit longer about
"Before Abraham, . . . I AM"

This is the TRUTH

You never were not!

This will modify Jim's silly desperation of where he will be after his "death"
Jim also will be where his heart IS! . . is now!

Best is ASAP collect the Shabd
The thristy feels (bakhti_love) on the face of the Guru facilitate hearing his frequency.
He has That package and can distribute it, whatever financiel/banking occupation he is involved in
Seth Shiv failed miserably as a banker
Jesus too. . . . I m sorry! :-)

This again brings me to our heart ; our nested convictions
We are sticked to it and only meditations can modify this
"WHAT IS GRAINED IN US" ( JapJi 7th line)
after 6th line : "How then to be TRUE?"

I paraphrased because of old age but it's SO clear

How lucky we are
We got the "package" , the 5 words, with this Quantum Power
At any moment we can use them to hear and Love the Creator frequency
The Words ARE the Creator but you find out in a later episode, after life
made U working with them
If you stop ( Exers cases) the whole process halts.

I will stop jubilations now
Wish you All so much success

Jim, . . . How about a new birth with a clean reset ASAP ?

Tim you explained so good what in fact only can be 'lived'
Thank You

Jesse : Why always so obstinate while in fact you know already stuffs. :-)

Myself: A manmukh fool, no description possible on that_one guys
agreeing with Gurinder via Osho paraphrased :"Why should I suffer other people's karmas"
I can understand that so intensively . . . except when LOVE intervenes! 🌺
His form is just lended at the death of a disciple without HIS permission! :-)
He is just fucked off by Charan

Another stupid misunderstanding : No sex 4the SatGuru
Wow

777

777

[Jim Sutherland]

@Tim Rimmer,.......since you are the progression of that Sperm that won the swimming race , and beat the other millions of competing Sperm to the Egg that you, Tim was hatched from, are you able To to retrace your Journey from the swimming Sperm Champion, and if so, further retracing that single Sperm back up stream to the Ultimate Creator? No doubt, OSHO Robbins knows exactly, the moment when HE WAS ONE with that very Sperm that won your swimming Race! Thoughts? Neo-Advaita Vedantists would ALL be paddling their boats in that very Race that The Sperm won in the swimming race that you expended from, stimulating.😇😜🙏🏻
Jim Sutherland

[🌳.🌳.🌳]

@UM
Once lost the contact with the drama it is difficult to regain the contact.

YES. but Can also be easy again to be trapped in
Even seduced using some new quantum__like astonishing powers

@Whodunit wrote
To know what truth is one has to use other faculties that can penetrate the veil of the illusory nature
As even scientists are trying to do today using 'primitive' physical apparatus, however these applications as 'advanced' as they proposed to be are yet inadequate to see beyond the veil of the physical fabric of 'gross' material existence. Posted by: Whodunit | November 16, 2019 at 11:02 PM

Yes
I worked once for a big publishing house
and my boss told me about his visit to a high estimated professor in physics
at CERN, Geneve
who had privately on his desk a half meter size copy of the Cheops pyramide
He said:
The photo exposures of colliding particles at Billions $ costing CERN are similar to the exposures
"I obtain herewith/in this pyramide model at the price of few dollars
between two 3 cm thick layers of led."

I like this part of the blog very much
as opposed to the gossiping "guillotine knitting ladies" part

777

-

[Jesse]

"To know what truth is one has to use other faculties that can penetrate the veil of the illusory nature"

And where did you hear this? From the intellectual traditions of India of course.

Get your own thoughts, then get back to me.

[Um]

@ 777
Prof. B sitting next to him said that the pull had to come from within and if it was not there nothing could be done to make it come.

and …

at another time that I should not say that nothing was going to happen as one is jostled into a situation, so much so that one cannot but act in a given way and that that too was not in my hands.

Again … there were days that I was looking at the movie of sant mat and was lost in it. Honesty wills it that I do remember those days with great pleasure. Than I woke up and the magic was gone, refinding myself sitting surounded by people lost in all sorts of movies and blots of light on the screen.

It is all not in ones hands.

[Whodunit]

No not from 'intellectual traditions of India' but via direct exchange between teacher and disciple, or even better, for experience with practical system of application (and appreciation, which obviously you lack, which is probably why your perception remains closed) as taught by true mystics.

So if your perception is closed because your intellect has shut it down don't presume that everyone else is as blind as you are to what is available to be understood or experienced through means other than incapacitated blind intellect.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi UM
You wrote several interesting things..
"Once lost the contact with the drama it is difficult to regain the contact."

"YES. but Can also be easy again to be trapped in
Even seduced using some new quantum__like astonishing powers"

"Prof. B sitting next to him said that the pull had to come from within and if it was not there nothing could be done to make it come.

" and …

"at another time that I should not say that nothing was going to happen as one is jostled into a situation, so much so that one cannot but act in a given way and that that too was not in my hands.

" Again … there were days that I was looking at the movie of sant mat and was lost in it. Honesty wills it that I do remember those days with great pleasure. Than I woke up and the magic was gone, refinding myself sitting surounded by people lost in all sorts of movies and blots of light on the screen.

"It is all not in ones hands."

Yet the answer is within you. The mind forgets. And so the heart forgets. And the pathway is through the heart and the mind.

Physiological Psychology has already demonstrated that we remember by association, not recording. The mind doesn't actually function like a computer. It functions relationally.

What that means is that you can forget beautiful events, lessons learned, incredible experiences and the relational pathway back to them simply by disassociation from just one single key facet of them. You only need to misdirect attention from a key memory to place the entire related chain out of access. You might recall the details of an event. But the connection to your heart can be lost in this way. But all the pieces are still there for you to reconnect in a more grounded and truthful way.

Do not confuse what you see around you with the reality of the path. But your path is what you have already experienced. So find that through your own practice. Build the atmosphere. Allow yourself to believe and when you withdraw finally to there, then you can look down upon here and try to integrate the two realities. But the inner one must take priority since you actually live there. That's your home, even though you are lost looking out the kitchen window to the happenings on the street. You are still in that kitchen and need to cook your meal. All the appliances and groceries are right there. Just turn around. And you will find that there is much more there than you know. And you are not alone.

Jaimal Singh gave the best advice. Don't get up from meditation until you have tasted the bliss of the Shabd Duhn, even just for a few minutes. Then and only then you are set aright and can think and see most clearly, as clearly as we can from this tiny point of a single life in n this single moment time, conditioning and place.

[Whodunit]

Um
Everything as experienced here in this condition is as a projected movie
So it simply is the condition that requires clarity of fine projection.

The light projects from the projector through the film onto the screen which is the projected image into the plane of this world, the stepped down transformation of action/reaction. (karma, life, experience, love, hate, attraction, repulsion, attachment, detachment)

But if the light from the projector is switched off then no projection is visible. The movie stops.

Without the light (consciousness) projected through the moving images in the film (mind), onto the screen (the world), there is no movie.

[Spence Tepper]

Complaining isn't great for the brain and sets in conditioning that covers other healthier pathways...

"While it’s not an exaggeration to say that complaining leads to brain damage, it doesn’t stop there."

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/how-complaining-rewires-your-brain-for-negativity

[Spence Tepper]

"Research from Stanford University has shown that complaining shrinks the hippocampus—an area of the brain that’s critical to problem-solving and intelligent thought. Damage to the hippocampus is scary, especially when you consider that it’s one of the primary brain areas destroyed by Alzheimer’s."

https://www.theladders.com/career-advice/how-complaining-rewires-your-brain-for-negativity

[Um]

@ spence
>>Jaimal Singh gave the best advice. Don't get up from meditation until you have tasted the bliss of the Shabd Duhn, even just for a few minutes. Then and only then you are set aright and can think and see most clearly, as clearly as we can from this tiny point of a single life in n this single moment time, conditioning and place. <<

In order to do that Spence one needs the necessary motivation about a goal to be reached

Earlier I wrote about the first strophe of Dante's Divina Comedia … a man refinds himself in a dark sinister wood, realiszing he has lost the right way. He realizes he was on an animal track that all of a sudden disappeared under his feet, meaning that there was not even an path leading somewhere, coming from nowhere, never having been there … his walking was an illusion.

Just to give an idea of hat it means to discover the reality of an fata morgana … no need spence, to find fault with a teacher or teaching.

Mystics are right, that the pull, the calling, is a gift …. not that their is a giver … but the whole mystic literature speaks of a burning hearts desire … if that fire is not there what can one doe ???

[Um]

@Whodunit

There were days, now long ago, when I would use the metaphor in the same way as you do.
In one way or another, I related to what I said …. but these days it has lost its meaning.

Imagine yourself looking at an religious ceremony at the ganges banks. For an onlooker a person is waving a candle, but for that person, what he does is full of meaning.

For me that meaning in relation to religious matters just faded out gradually leaving me an onlooker.

That is all … in the beginning it is scarry but one gets used to it

[🇱🇧 + 💖]

The Sperm won in the swimming race that you expended from, stimulating.😇😜🙏🏻
Jim Sutherland

Next time I use Butterfly like Phelps.

@Whodunit stated correctly
Without the light (consciousness) projected through the moving images in the film (mind), onto the screen (the world), there is no movie.
me:
Without the Light, the word is still in place
Light is one of our several zillion unbelievable ways to perform
Enough reasons not to worry & be happy

Posted by: Whodunit | November 17, 2019 at 10:18 AM

@Spence
"While it’s not an exaggeration to say that complaining leads to brain damage, it doesn’t stop there."
me:
But then why you complaint here so much?

Spencevery wisely told us:
Physiological Psychology has already demonstrated that we remember by association, not recording. The mind doesn't actually function like a computer. It functions relationally.
me:
PAVLOV RELATIONALLY

That's why somewhat older initiates remain 'un-moved' these days
To much Darshan. 💖

777.

PS > UM : if that fire is not there what can one doe??
Pray!

HE gives the hunger, the soup and the spoon (HE said)

[Um]

@777.

>>PS > UM : if that fire is not there what can one doe??
Pray!
HE gives the hunger, the soup and the spoon (HE said)<<

I know, I know he said it, …. it is all in his hands.

In order to eat 2 conditions have to be fulfilled. One there has to be hunger, second there has to be food on the plate and both are given.

Since when has anybody prayed for hunger????
Those who are hungry may pray for food .. that one can understand.

[💖💖💖]

The spoon is Simran
The Soup is The Sweet Sound
The hunger comes from adequate Pavlov
as stated above
I did the spoon 24/7 the first two years
until I found out that the vertebrae must be really straight

Then I wrote that recommended letter to HIM
and asked not to answer me

777

[Um]

@777
>>The spoon is Simran. The Soup is The Sweet Sound. The hunger comes from adequate Pavlovas stated above. I did the spoon 24/7 the first two years until I found out that the vertebrae must be really straight.

Then I wrote that recommended letter to HIM and asked not to answer me<<

[1] There must have been inner motivation or "hunger" to be able to do 24/7 simran for 2 years. ...that hunger, that motivation, was a gift
[2] Then there was the sound, you call it the soup in the plate … that too was a gift

Now having receive that gift, you can say that you ate and enjoyed.

If both gifts are not there …. what can one do?!

What you write about an letter I don't follow!!

Anyway I just accept that people do have experiences like there are others that have a talent to write music, discover things in science or things like that…. we are not all gifted.

And those who are not gifted are left with the hearsay of talented people. People go to concert halls to listen to Bach's but the real music of Bach was what he heared in his mind.
Poems of mystics are the same, for a while it gives pleasure, but soner or later one will discover that HEARSAY however beautifull is just THAT ,,,HEARSAY.

Looking at pictures of fire doesn't warm the body when cold.

It is all that simple ….

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Great comments!
You wrote
"In order to do that Spence one needs the necessary motivation about a goal to be reached

" Earlier I wrote about the first strophe of Dante's Divina Comedia … a man refinds himself in a dark sinister wood, realiszing he has lost the right way. He realizes he was on an animal track that all of a sudden disappeared under his feet, meaning that there was not even an path leading somewhere, coming from nowhere, never having been there … his walking was an illusion.

"Just to give an idea of hat it means to discover the reality of an fata morgana … no need spence, to find fault with a teacher or teaching.

" Mystics are right, that the pull, the calling, is a gift …. not that their is a giver … but the whole mystic literature speaks of a burning hearts desire … if that fire is not there what can one doe ???

Two things..
1." In order to do that Spence one needs the necessary motivation about a goal to be reached"

When you walk into a garden you see things you didn't see before, and getting to know them better automatically becomes one's goal.

The only effort is to walk there and make sure you aren't looking at your cell phone all the time, or listening to your head phones. You just have to be there.

When you close your eyes, you're in a cathedral. Using repetition, imagery of the Master, any method to put down the cell phone and take off the headphones and you will begin to have a sense that you are on a very large place. And then you watch your mind /brain operating. That's very interesting. The Quieter you get, the more your brain becomes sensitive, and raises to conscious awareness, stimuli you normally aren't aware of. Because it's subtle. But focusing on it, the brain helps amplify it. Then just observe, focus on the things that help you withdraw even from what you see in meditation. You get to watch a show so long as you don't get too involved. Like skateboarding, or iceskating, or surfing. So long as you maintain your balance, you get to go on a little trip. And each part unfolds just as easily as a garden opens up to you with each step forward.

So it's about practice, and getting sensitive to what's in you already. And reducing the cycle time between distraction and forgetting.

2."Mystics are right, that the pull, the calling, is a gift …. not that their is a giver … but the whole mystic literature speaks of a burning hearts desire … if that fire is not there what can one doe ???"

If you have the desire and interest that's all you need, then comes effort. The pull is always there in everyone. It's part of our physiology. If you have a human body, pull is there. Not every method works. Brian ji likes Mindfulness, everyone has their favorite. Be willing to experiment. Because basically everyone has the same physiology. Shabd is inside of everyone. Not everyone experiences the same way, but eventually they do. Until then it's Shabd filtered through brain.Or more precisely, Airbrush filtered through the brain's Sensory filters. At some point you experience without those filters. That's when you will be hearing Shabd, and in time that becomes overwhelming. But all roads lead to Rome if you just keep walking. Unless the road you are on is just too steep. Then take one of the more gradual paths.

Start from where you are.

Put in a few minutes each day then try to lengthen it.

Make your practice reliable, then punctual.

And those small disciplines will help carry you through most of the distractions. And when you become disconnected from Shabd, you will naturally want to Mediate even more, and the effort will be there. But it has to become anchored in some internal experience for you to be able to go back there. That's why you should change practices if you aren't getting results.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
You wrote
"me:
But then why you complaint here so much?"

That's a great question.
I can see how from your perspective it looks like that.
Seems to me that's a little complaint in itself.

From another perspective its just trying to put the information together without ignoring it.

[Um]

@ spence

I do appreciate your effort … wrote an lengthy reply … but … deleted it again as it would be, repeating what I wrote.
Let me ad only that what happened to me did so after 45 years of daily effort. I did learn many a thing from him for which I am gratefull for the rest, as far as an inner journey is concerned i am still there where I started out those long years ago.
No problem … that is how it is

The lady from whom I came to know about this path said that it was nothing for me as I lacked the bhakti qualities needed …. I liked here.

[777.💖]

@UN

I thought
no meat I can
other vows I cannot
but Simran 24/7 I can

So I did
It's slowly becoming sweet and later super sweet
and you see that it always was the Sound
but also HIM My Master
That was 50 years ago
and
I wrote HIM
"Now I have You, I don't need God anymore"
but your right
It's all a gift
Today it s more difficult I heard
We lived together without marriage
You might Read some of my comments here

Best Luck

777

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
I'm not sure you lack any qualities.
Maybe. Certainly we all lack Qualities. I think it depends on what you are after. Vince Lombardi said success is a habit and so is failure. We can and should change habits that aren't working.

When you say you gained nothing from all those years it reminds me of the story of a boy who tried to move a boulder to get the treasure in the cave. Every day he would come and try to move the boulder. It didn't move. But in his loyalty to his practice his arms and legs became very strong. It didn't bother him. He enjoyed his outdoor walk to the boulder, and his pressing exercises against it. It became a mildly pleasant routine.

One day, as he walked up to his favorite boulder, he wondered if it was perfectly round. The question of the actual shaoe of the Boulder had never crossed his mind before.

Just on a lark, he walked to the side of the boulder and noticed there were gouges in the side.

Now he was strong, after all those months and years of trying to move the Boulder. And so he reached for hand hold over hand hold, and foot hold over foot hold, and pulled himself straight up the side.

There he had a lovely view of the valley before. And he saw that the entrance to the mythical cave was wide open from the top. And so in he went and got his treasure.

But if he'd kept pushing that boulder he would never have gotten anywhere.

It was what he had learned, and the strength he had developed to climb under his own power at least to the entrance, that served him.

So be willing to try something different. Destination is there. You are stronger than you were. Maybe strong enough to try something different.

[Karim W. Rahmaan]

777

In the Urdu words of the Great Master Shiv Seth Dayal..

Radha Soami to thee!

[Um]

@ Spence
Thank you for you for the beautiful tale.

[Spence Tepper]

In meditation I asked Master to explain levels of consciousness with respect to the limits of the human brain. Here is what he showed me and explained, as best I can recall.

When your meditation advances to a certain stage it is as though you had a supermarket built next to your home. You can go there and see everything while your are there. That's universal consciousness. Of course we don't spend much time there, but it is there. And when you go you can see anything you like. And you can take a few things back with you when you return to daily consciousness, 'return to the body'. Generally we don't take anything but the experience of our Master, the time we spend together. We pass the supermarket and go straight to his house. And that helps us, reminds us to stay in his presence throughout the day. That boils down, when we return here, to an impression of love.

But as to that supermarket, You can bring an item, or a handful of items back with you to the kitchen of the mind. You can develop that if you wish. But it isn't necessary. Some minds have just a toaster oven and a single burner, and a small cooler. Others have a large stove with many burners, two ovens, and a large refrigerator. What truths entering back must be processed so we can comprehend it in this stage of consciousness. But it is very limited. The brain is very limited. And it's conditioned to attend to this world, and generally suppress most internal experience. Mind is doing its job, but we can do our job separating from it, rather than trying to mold it or expand it. There are some dangers there. But very few people can develop enough power to be dangerous. What is most important is to build the wealth of time with Master within, because that conditions us for death. That prepares our mind through conditioning the mind. Then we are conditioned to return to Master and not to this world. So we shouldn't waste our wealth on anything else. And then there is protecting that wealth, that's Satsang, that's reading good books, good company, Bhajan and Simran during the day, conditioning the mind to remember and enjoy the return to Meditation and Master's presence. Then we are preparing the mind, which is the most we should be doing for this mind.

[Michael]

Spence:
Start from where you are.

Thank you very much.
I have been willing myself, and failing.

Start from where I am 🤩

[🌅💦🙈]

@Spence
Do you mind to be called Spiritual Bi-polair

Lets enjoy :Welcome to one of the biggest mysteries in the universe: what makes up most of it. Our best measurements indicate that some 85 per cent of all matter in our universe consists of “dark matter” made of something that isn’t atoms. Huge underground experiments built to catch glimpses of dark matter particles as they pass through Earth have seen nothing. Particle-smashing experiments at the Large Hadron Collider, which we hoped would create dark matter, haven’t – at least as far as we can tell. The hunt for dark matter was never supposed to be easy. But we didn’t expect it to be this hard.

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24432560-600-why-dark-matters-no-show-could-mean-a-big-bang-rethink/#ixzz65dhpU8Fe

77
PS.
Back to worldly stuff
It seems, when you can code good Q-algorithms , . .
acces @ IBM Q (qubit) systems is FREE
Anybody here ?

Anybody interested to mine all bitcoins left, . . in 3 minutes?
to help the brothers out!

[Jesse]

"In meditation I asked Master to explain levels of consciousness with respect to the limits of the human brain"

Lol okaaaaay.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Whodunit

I’m assuming your ‘intellect is a hindrance’ comment is in response to my recent post?

Yes, it is an ‘intellectual’ response to what 777 posted earlier, how else is one to engage in such discussion? As said, I’m enjoying reading and assimilating what I currently see in ‘The Recognition Sutras’. It’s always good in my view when someone else says something that resonates/gels with how I’m thinking/feeling about stuff - particularly when it comes to gaining further insight/perspective into the truth of things.

I’d say that over the years some aspects of my intellect have sharpened as I’ve become more aware of how the mind operates. I’d also like to think that my ‘heart’ has remained open. I believe that this so called ‘spiritual path’ is as Spencer says a combo of both head and heart. A good word for the result of the two working together would be ‘discernment’. Discernment imo is another term for ‘clear thinking’ which (putting a Sant Mat view on it) according to Jagat Singh means the job is 90% done.

In my view such discernment would be important for understanding this relationship of perceiver and perceived which according to Kashmir Shaivism provides insight into that which is the ground of everything.

Of course if you can do the full Bhakta as per Sant Mat then arguably one could arrive at a similar place but who does that - a few fingers on a Saint’s hand?

Hail James Sutherland! How are you?
Pardon my ignorance but I’m trying to get my head around a vision of the ‘Spermy 500’ and hatching from an egg! :-)
No, I can’t recall/am unable to retrace a spermy path back to the Ultimate Creator. Though I understand that the spermy racers derive from the Central channel?
Have you done it since winning the race?
Is it a take on destiny? Or soul?
I remember re-experiencing some of my birth trauma when I did some rebirthing trainings in the late 80s - does that help?.

Are you lumping the Neo-Advaita Vedantists in with the Kashmir Shaivites? Tut tut. :-)

Best to all

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
Yes, bi-polar I would guess. Because I live in two distinct places with a different mind in each. Two different personalities as well.

But it's better to struggle with integrating those two than to live in this meager place alone with the one.

[Jen]

"Bhajan and Simran during the day, conditioning the mind to remember and enjoy the return to Meditation and Master's presence. Then we are preparing the mind, which is the most we should be doing for this mind."

Why the need to program the mind? Why the need to follow a guru? Maybe just allowing the mind to observe the world, ourself and others, our reactions. Just watching and observing our programs running through our mind, our thoughts, our feelings and then constantly letting go, because life is a mystery and we can't grab onto it with our thoughts. Thoughts are constantly changing and flowing, thats what the mind does. Just observe and let go.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You asked
"Why the need to program the mind? Why the need to follow a guru? Maybe just allowing the mind to observe the world, ourself and others, our reactions. Just watching and observing our programs running through our mind, our thoughts, our feelings and then constantly letting go, because life is a mystery and we can't grab onto it with our thoughts. Thoughts are constantly changing and flowing, thats what the mind does. Just observe and let go."

It's more a matter of unprogramming, as the rest of your post details.

'Constantly letting go. ' Easier said than done. Everyone has their own approach. And if one doesn't work, then try another.

[Jen]

Spence: " 'Constantly letting go. ' Easier said than done."

Just remain
in the centre
watching
and then forget
that you are there

- Lao Tzu

[Dungeness]

'Constantly letting go. ' Easier said than done. Everyone has their own approach. And if one doesn't work, then try another.

Amen.

I think Ishwar Puri has it right though... a spiritual will has to develop as well.
One that will say "no" to say the mental will. Otherwise the mind will keep
piling up things "to let go of".

[Jesse]

Believers need to make clear one distinction in their mind.

Immorality vs Illegality.

What Baba is doing is immoral according to both societal standards, and according to his own stated standards and those of the religious organization from which he claims to have received godhood.

What Baba is doing may or may not be illegal. And whether or not he gets caught is not the sole determining factor of this, by the way. It just means that there are limits to the justice system.

So while I and others maybe casually mix the two things together, it should be accepted that whether or not a court of law finds sufficient evidence to conclude his guilt, he is still guilty by the social standards we'd use to judge anyone who wasn't charismatic and religiously powerful.

Were you not members of a cult, you wouldn't question for a single moment whether or not this Baba was acting in service of personal greed, and neither would you question whether or not intense personal greed was an extremely negative character trait.

Leave the cult. It's a cringe and lame system of low brow Vedanta for illiterate farmers. It is beneath you.

[Steve]

Thank you Jesse for the words of wisdom.

Unfortunately you are no judge of both

- moral standards
- legality

The day you have this authority, come back.

Until then.....

[Dungeness]

Leave the cult. It's a cringe and lame system of low brow Vedanta for illiterate farmers. It is beneath you.

What! Leave the cult? Watch it wither and die? Deprive you of
your favorite bete noire?

Perish the thought! You'd be abandoned, alone, adrift with no
one to judge! There'd be none that needed saving from that
greedy, immoral Baba.

Alas, I'd be lost too. Who would I argue with? Without unbelievers
who would I find to feel superior to? Who then could I save from
damnation and hellfire?

We need each other. Don't ya see!?

[Jesse]

I'm the most moral person to have ever lived, Steve. Sorry you're too much of a little worldly samsara-addicted bitch to notice how moral I am. Maybe meditate a bit more instead of being on the internet, buddy? Maybe get on my level? I don't know, man. Do something.

Must suck to be lost and have no guidance from the inner master I guess. I other words, it must suck TO BE YOU.

Had you seen my website, complete with pictures of me in ethnic robes and long honorific titles, you'd be much closer to The Truth. But I assume you are no good at using search engines and didn't see my website, King SEO aka Steve Eternally Ostracized (from the company of Saint Jesse)

Were I less humble I'd be giving satsangs, but you don't even really deserve my wisdom anyway. I say that in the universe encompassing humility only I know, and in the spirit of my saintliness, sucka.

[Jesse]

Good point, Dungeness. I do appreciate those who try to save me from the eternal hellfire, but only because without them I have nobody to try pulling into the flames to dance with me.

[Whodunit]

Yes Tim Rimmer

Everything related to any opinion on the subject matter of a specific position to any field of activity in the field of action (and reaction), whether by reading others writings and applying their reasoning, is operated by intellect.
Especially the verbal (or written) communication as in this argument.

Fundamental points of communication between people as performed via the internet is obviously intellectual in its origin and construction.

However none of these can change the recipients foundation of experience. Only direct evidence of their personal experience can or will.

[🌺🌺.🌺]

777. In the Urdu words of the Great Master Shiv Seth Dayal..
Radha Soami to thee! Posted by: Karim W. Rahmaan |
November 17, 2019 at 10:28 PM

Gorgeously Delighted I am!

[💚💙❤💙💚]

@Spence said something he doesn't know a iota about

"Once you get the inner connection there is nothing else you want to do. And the Guru, as a teacher, walks the talk, lives the life he is teaching, models that life."

Haha
That implies that this who hear the Almighty
and are The Almighty in fact

haha
are never in worldly affairs

So
The rural citizen world is totally deprived of these nobel Souls

777

So, Spence from Earth dictating
-

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
Who wants to deal with anything once they have Shabd?
It's not something to brag about, but to submit to.

A person teaching this but deeply embroiled in deeply complex high finance, high risk investment across over one hundred corporate entities in the construction of a family empire for years, has given themselves over to that career, in finance. Not spirituality. The lord has many other people to build real estate and financial Empires.

You failed to miss the point. Yes God can do anything. But the role of the Sant Sat Guru is to show people how to model their entire lives around Shabd, around simplifying the life, so that a normal person could live that life, build that atmosphere.

It is absolutely meaningless to look at someone and say "only a god could do that!"

I understand that you believe the Master should be superhuman in all ways. That is wrong. They are here to collect souls and to be a model for the rest of us, not to live in a way that few could follow, and certainly not a model that has proven time and again to be the path of greed, corruption and self destruction. There are a lot of gurus who take that path. But they false.

The simple way is the best, 777. If you find you must make all sorts of excuses for what looks just like greed and corruption on a grand scale, year over year, then you might consider that this is not living a simple life of devotion, a life of complete transparency and honesty, and a model that others can and should follow.

That's the job of the Sant Sat Guru.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi 777
You wrote
"So, Spence from Earth dictating"

You are the first person who has ever accused me of being from earth! Let alone living here. But I don't take it as an insult. In fact I'm proud to hear it. Everyone else lives here and they seem to be pretty nice overall.

I may be an emigree, maybe even a naturalized citizen. Yes that's nice. While I'm here I've tried to get along and fit in but it's been hopeless. But if you think so than I take it as progress!

[Spence Tepper]

Most people, 777, when they get to know me really well, end up asking, "What fucking planet are you from?!"

So thank you for the compliment!
;)
Spence

[Um]

@ Spence
Not that it does matter but I believe to have read and heard several times that gurus, mystics and saints can come in any garb, be it pauper or king.

Kings of yore are the businessmen of today …. hahahaha … and niether king nor businessmen get wealthy by working the land as a farmer.

I am glad that my english, financial know how etc is far to insufficient to even follow more than the headlines …. hahahaha and for my believe, if their as any it is not needed

[Jesse]

In another thread someone who uses the name Nancy said in regards to believing facts and speculation about the guru's links to illegal activity "Please don’t conclude something on the basis of hearsay."

If this were the standard we adhered to, there would be no religion, especially not the RS religion. The entire system is built on a structure of hearsay. Whether it be blind faith in the holiness and miracles of men from ages ago, or the blind faith in the hearsay about the existence of an entity called the "inner master", it's all stories that you first believed in before having any confirmation.

Nobody would be initiated by these "masters" were it not for loads and loads of hearsay, so cut the bullshit out and be honest. You believe what you choose to believe and care nothing for facts, and this is totally fine. Just admit it.

[Whodunit]

It's only hearsay to those who have never witnessed anything directly.
To those who have direct experience on a personal level then it reverts to knowledge from clarity of experience and understanding, not from hearsay.

To those who can only operate by hearsay because their senses of receiving or recognizing have been dumbed down through excessive reliance on intellect to assume certain deductions, the cognitive faculties cannot appreciate direct perspective. Therefore everything they develop their conclusions by are based only on hearsay, and none of it as clarified by any means of direct unencumbered experience, only by what their closed-minded calculated intellect has led them to believe.

It's like the story of Saul of Tarsus who was going around persecuting early Christian followers of Christ because his 'intelligence' - (intellectual hearsay) had influenced his life to the extent of dogmatic assumptions in cold hearted intolerance. Until such time as he was struck down by some force either of his own conscience or by some higher power or reason unknown to him prior to his 'epiphany'.

Likewise until anyone has had any personal experience of anything beyond their own closed calculations of intellectual reasoning, then it's all hearsay to them. Until they get the good fortune to understand what it is to have personally experienced something directly.

[Dungeness]

Nobody would be initiated by these "masters" were it not for loads and loads of hearsay, so cut the bullshit out and be honest. You believe what you choose to believe and care nothing for facts, and this is totally fine. Just admit it.

I agree... sorta. Certain beliefs or theories may resonate so someone
may opt to adopt/explore their viability. Without supporting facts, it
remains an experiment, a guess, hearsay. Sadly, after its "shelf life"
expires with no proof, it devolves to "blind belief".

In my opinion, mindfulness helps you spot the rank smell of a theory
that shoulda been pulled from a shelf long ago. But, if you're not
mindful, a "cult master" (or your own mind) convinces you dire things
happen if you stop believing. Brian Ji and Sensei Tepper et al warn
of these dangers.

True mysticism honors facts though and insists on experiential
confirmation before that foul odor wafts down from the shelf.
Moreover mystics are open to all paths that posit the truth is inside
and not outside. Great Master told Puri to explore any path that
resonated and report back any whose methods were more
efficacious for uncovering the truth inside.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
It's true Gurus come in all shapes and colors. But it seems recently they have a penchant for materialism.

We get the guru we deserve. If people need a king in golden robes flying in jets, riding his Harley, sending his kids to the best schools in Europe, having visits with movie stars, that's what they get. They want a glamorous Guru who lets them lust after wealth and all the things of this world, too. They are drawn to it, with the idea that it's OK. They want their guru to be mixed up in all this, not to be judged wrong, but to be judged right! So that they can too. It's a secret wish. And along with it, the dream and belief they will be taken right into heaven, and all their worldly wealth simply exchanged at the airport into heavenly currency.

But when one tires of those material false notions, and has a serious interest in spirituality things look much different. We go where our attention is. If that's material gain, one more acre of land, then we will come back for that acreage. It will be impossible to leave all that we worked so hard to build.

And we see all this obscene worship of wealth, with our only real currency, our attention. And the flawless duplication and sanctification of the Hindu Caste system, the system of slavery.

There will always be a market for such.

But there are real Sant Sat Gurus. And when you find them you will realize that it isn't 'anything goes'. They are very far from all this materialism. All that must be released.

Because there is another more important wealth deserving all our attention. Every moment of every day.

And attending with so much ambition to worldly things becomes a tragedy for the poverty left in our spiritual account.

And that tragedy is painted in a trail of fraudulent loans.

But if the pull of spirit isn't there, then what is left but the pull of attachment?

Then we really are helpless.

But the pull of spirit makes us very ambitious for spirit. We see room crowded with people and Luxuries as a prison, and an empty room as a doorway to freedom. I realize this makes no sense at all to some people.

And that's OK. Spirituality sn't everyone's cup of tea.

[um]

@Spence
"sobrietas", and simple living in a simple way are core virtues in Christian and monastic life.

You might enjoy the story of an Australian atheist scholar that became an Coptic monk
Search for "The life of Fr. Lazarus Al Anthony" on YOUTUBE … there are some versions of 1 hour and 2 hours

What I put before you was something that follows from the tradition as taught by the successors of Kabir, not necessary my views …. that REAL saints, mystics, gurus come in ANY garb be it pauper or king. As we don't have any king, the concept has to be replace by CEO's

AND ….. there is also said that there is no way to recognise a true master on his outward behaviour.

AND …..never judge or speak ill of people seen as guru's

It is all there in the books and on tapes.

I do understand that these same teachings cause problems for most disciples these days as they feel that they have to take side in one way or another, pro or contra.

The core of the teaching is in the word SHABD-yoga as long as that is taught, the teacher stands within the tradition of the path.

The rest is for the worldly judges, newspapers, to find out and judge accordingly

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Good comments
You wrote
"AND ….. there is also said that there is no way to recognise a true master on his outward behaviour.

" AND …..never judge or speak ill of people seen as guru's

"It is all there in the books and on tapes."

Yes, but we also read in those same writings that Saints lead a simple life, they give everything to the poor and needy, their entire focus is on spirit, not acqusition of wealth. Lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride they have overcome. Their entire focus is on helping others. Saints earn their own living honestly. And they earn just what they need. If they are born with wealth, when they take the mantle of Guru, they give that away in stages.

No Guru in any recorded literature built a financial empire, or even built or conquered a kingdom when they took the mantle of the Guru. That's a full time role.

Nothing in the literature, nothing written in Sar Bachan, nothing written by Kabir, Nanek, Amar Das, Gobhind Singh, Christ, Mira, Rumi, Shams and the others supports what we have today in RSSB, and in fact these authors detail the lifestyle of a true Saint. That is in stark contrast.

Now, as to speaking out against religious prejudice, the Saints could be quite vocal critics. Because if not for them, who would speak for the voiceless?

All true Gurus advocate Ahimsa, no harm. But who will speak out for the harm being done by RSSB?

It falls to human beings to use the gifts they were given. So that we establish justice for the powerless and the voiceless.

That is what he Saints ask us to do. All of them ask for that.

When there is no harm, we should never judge anyone. We should live in Shabd, within, in peace.

But when there is harm it is our duty to speak out.

And then it is a grievous sin to remain silent.

[Um]

@ Spence
Chance or divine intervention but the answer I wrote has gone again.

In short … your views upon the teachings and the teacher differ.
Yours being in agreement with what most people hold for correct, both pro and contra here.
They represent the noble qualities attributed to Christianity were love for one's fellow human beings is goal worthy to live and die for. For me these same things are at best a means to an end.

[Jesse]

"No Guru in any recorded literature built a financial empire, or even built or conquered a kingdom when they took the mantle of the Guru."

I think there have in fact been quite a few spiritual gurus with immense wealth and kingdoms. The Bhagvatam is full of spiritual leaders who are also kings. The Mahabharata is a story of saints fighting wars. Whether or not they use the term guru is irrelevant.

Even in the sant tradition that most RSSB'ers are familiar with there is the entire second half of Sikhism, with the idea of "miri piri" and the "sant siphai."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Hargobind

These religions were also caricatures of nationalism, which is something very inconvenient to delusional modernists.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
Your correction is well taken, in reference to all those who have been credited with the title of Guru. Many kings, many conquerers. And they demonstrate the ease with which people who follow them can blindly accept lust, anger, greed, attachment and pride in behavior by those who claim to teach the opposite. And that followers enable the harm these false Gurus perpetrate in the name of spirituality. They build a peaceful cathedral for Sunday sanctuary, but many were murdered to do so.

My recent references were to the true Gurus, the true teachers of spirituality. The Sant Sat Gurus. The highest teachings, which are focused on spirituality, not obscene levels of material acquisition. Also, no true Saint ever advocated violence of any kind. And all of them eschewed it.

This can be found in the writings of those I listed and are not bound by any geography, culture or time, though they have helped shape the better qualities of many cultures.

They walk the talk.

.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"They represent the noble qualities attributed to Christianity were love for one's fellow human beings is goal worthy to live and die for. For me these same things are at best a means to an end."

I'm not sure I expressed my meaning adequatly. Ahimsa, generosity and focus on helpfulness are qualities that arise naturally from spiritual development, the effect of Nam upon us. Some can do this with full conscious awareness. Others, they are blessed to begin with, with these qualities. Certain things come naturally. The tree laden with fruit bows low, and the fruits drop naturally without even being asked for or touched. That tree is in its season.

But the barren tree stands tall and firm, disciplined, and imoving. That tree gives very little shade.

These are not Western our Eastern concepts.

The one of Spirit walks the talk. It is all they can do.

And they tell the truth, however uncomfortable it sounds, but always with the desire to help. There is no point to expose Baba Ji except to help.

All the clothes in the wash are very angry and annoyed being tossed about and scrubbed and drowned in soap. And none of them like the heat of the dryer.

And if that wasn't bad enough, the iron is sheer torment, the fires of hell.

But when the laundry worker holds them up to the mirror, even the once dirty shirt and pants can see they have been transformed. And now they are happy.

The laundry worker knows what they are doing. They aren't kings, they aren't Gurus with a capital G.

But they are doing the honest and unglamorous work. This is Brian Ji's Laundromat.

We just ignore the baby crying as we change the diaper, or we whisper and coo until she calms down. Diaper must be changed and she will feel better once it's all over.

[Spence Tepper]

I would think, Jesse, that you might find yourself a trifle uncomfortable promoting the same nationalism as these false Gurus from history you decry.

Please take a cleansing moment to connect the dots. Here, borrow my crayon.

[Jesse]

"My recent references were to the true Gurus, the true teachers of spirituality. The Sant Sat Gurus."

Oh the sant sat gurus eh? You mean the Sikh gurus then. Because that is a Sikh religious term, and Sikhs have always been nationalists.

Ever read the bhagvad gita? Another pro nationalism book by a "false guru" known as Lord Krishna.

You don't know what you're talking about Spence. Nationalism is only scary because... You know why, Spence. I'll be polite and just let you sulk to yourself, knowing inside that the game is almost up.

[Um]

@Spence
You made yourself clear enough to transmit your stand- and viewpoint.

I happen to stand somewhere else and from there things are seen differently.

I have never found any where a mystic going out into the world doing "good" or addressing his followers to do so.

The things you mention are a means to an end … see the Buddhist practice for example. They stress ahimsa but for whom do they stress it?
For the objects or the subjects?
To my knowledge they are seldom or not all involved in caritative practices, they just stress ahimsa as a "means to an end" for the Buddhist himself.

Christians do it. For them it is a goal and a tool also to spread their word. That is why I called it Christian attributes.

In whatever I read from people like Rumi, I never came across and advise to go out into the world to do good and if it was done it was said for the betterment of the disciple

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"You mean the Sikh gurus then."
Nice effort to pivot, but no banana.

The Gurus I refer to as Sant Sat Gurus are only the ones who meet the conditions discussed, and written about by the mystics named. Nanak and Kabir were on that list.

But as to who is actually is a Sant Sat Guru, that really, functionally, can't be known. Looking to the top of the mountain from the bottom we may see many climbers and have little perspective to judge their height.

But the basics of decency, of a simple life focused on spirituality and not material gain, helpfulness, generosity, non - violence, these qualities anyone can see. Saints have more qualities than these. But these are the minimum. If they don't have these, they aren't even climbing on the mountain. Those without even these simple attributes are, IMHO, the false Gurus.

[Jesse]

Ok Spence. So you want to arbitrarily borrow someone else's religion and it's terminology, and arbitrarily change all their meanings and definitions because of your own politics. Really cool.

"But as to who is actually is a Sant Sat Guru, that really, functionally, can't be known."

Lol you'd argue with a stone. You're in a weird ethnic cult that clashes with your mystic cult and it's making your genetic predisposition to mental illness go crazy. Good luck with that.

[Jesse]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ShelteredDoggo/status/1197392334637412353

Welcome to your bright and wonderful future without nationalism.

[Whodunit]

2nd half of Sikhism were not spiritual Guru's they were religious and cultural leaders who were forging a society of Sikhs aligned within their respective political framework between Hindu and Muslim overlords. And then came the British.

[💙 💀 💙]

Here is a nice indication of how peoples ignoranceand all
what is external
are a hindrance to the truth
and applies to the world of laws, measures, opinions

May the reader be blessed to understand the importance of what is described as giant ignorance in the math field
since a century

Bad news for Atheist - where can they go now?

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/11/neutrino-oscillations-lead-striking-mathematical-discovery/602128/

77

[☠🤲]

Now while the USA approves settlements based on historic grounds

My proposal is

Dig 2000, 3000 skeletons and define the real jewish DNA

Next only citizens having that will have citizen rights

That might be 85% Palestines, forced to converted by Saladin

7

PS
Nice trump decree for the USA

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You write
"Ok Spence. So you want to arbitrarily borrow someone else's religion and it's terminology, and arbitrarily change all their meanings and definitions because of your own politics. Really cool.

"But as to who is actually is a Sant Sat Guru, that really, functionally, can't be known."

"Lol you'd argue with a stone. You're in a weird ethnic cult that clashes with your mystic cult and it's making your genetic predisposition to mental illness go crazy. Good luck with that."

That's my leitmotif..

[Dungeness]

Lol you'd argue with a stone. You're in a weird ethnic cult that clashes with your mystic cult and it's making your genetic predisposition to mental illness go crazy. Good luck with that."

Is that "ethnic cult" called the "human race"...

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"I have never found any where a mystic going out into the world doing "good" or addressing his followers to do so."

That's tragic. It's all they do with their free time, when they aren't in meditation or teaching. They are living in the Lord's Seva, opening all the centers to refugees. Because they see the Lord in these meak and dispossessed. They are all fountains of Shabd, and the Master dines serving them.

Yes, I think you may have led a sheltered existence. That would explain your perspective.

But we are all sheltered from different things

[Spence Tepper]

For Um
"Welcome and entertain them all!
Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture,
still, treat each guest honorably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond."
Rumi, The Guest House

[Spence Tepper]

For Um
"There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord."
Guru Nanek

[Spence Tepper]

For Um
Nanek says these are the five
Truthfulness!
Honest living!
Charity!
Good will towards all!
Worship of the Lord!

Let these be your criteria, Um, for judging a true Sant Sat Guru.

[Jesse]

"Is that "ethnic cult" called the "human race"..."

No, it's not. Human is a species. Race is a colloquial term denoting a taxinomical category like subspecies, or some other class of distinct groups within a species. Like how Asian elephants and African elephants aren't the same "race" because their ears look different or whatever. Humans are also an animal, Dungeness.

Imagine if doctors used political correctness guidelines from you sociopaths and just gave the same meds and blood to everyone lol. We'd all die really fast.

[Jesse]

"Let these be your criteria, Um, for judging a true Sant Sat Guru. "

Well since you never met Guru Nanak or Mirabai or any of the other figures you were told to worship, maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about their politics??? Nah, that'd take all the fun away from thinking you're some enlightened being saving souls online.

"2nd half of Sikhism were not spiritual Guru's they were religious and cultural leaders who were forging a society of Sikhs aligned within their respective political framework between Hindu and Muslim overlords. And then came the British. "

You'd likely get smashed in the face for saying that in a lot of places. But hopefully you try it somewhere in a remote village near Gurdaspur during an AKJ satsang.