"The View from Nowhere" is a laudable goal

Quite a few years ago I heard of Thomas Nagel's book "The View from Nowhere," liking the provocative title. Nagel is better known for his What Is it Like to be a Bat? paper, which raised equally profound questions about subjectivity and objectivity. 

No human knows what it is like to be a bat. Only a bat does. 

The same is true of every species, and indeed of every individual within a species. I've been married to my wife, Laurel, for 29 years. So obviously I know her very well. But I don't know what it is like to be Laurel. Only she does. 

I perceive my wife from the outside, an objective perspective. She perceives herself from the inside, a subjective perspective. What Nagel seeks to achieve in The View from Nowhere is a philosophical argument for how subjective and objective views of the world can be harmonized.

I've only read part of this book, yet feel that I've grasped enough of Nagel's way of thinking to fashion a blog post based on the first five of his eleven chapters. 

Here's how Nagel encapsulates his goal.

A theory of reality with pretensions to completeness would have to include a theory of the mind. But this too would be a hypothesis generated by the mind, and would not be self-guaranteeing. ... The idea of a full conception of reality that explains our ability to arrive at it is just a dream.

Nevertheless, it's what we aim toward: a gradual liberation of the dormant objective self, trapped initially behind an individual perspective of human experience. The hope is to develop a detached perspective that can coexist with and comprehend the individual one.

That's certainly a laudable goal. It reflects what science is all about, though Nagel seeks a perspective that is universal, not limited to scientific investigations. 

Appealingly, he simultaneously asserts the truth of our inherent subjectivity -- the fact that each of us knows ourself from the inside, while everyone else knows us from the outside -- with a commitment to fashion our ways of knowing into a perspective that comes as close as possible to being a view from nowhere.

Meaning, an objective view that minimizes the biases of our species, and our personal individuality as a member of Homo sapiens. In the chapter that I finished today, Nagel says that a "double vision" is needed.

I'm not completely sure what he means by this, assuming that the rest of the book will lead to an explanation. It isn't bouncing back and forth between a subjective and objective view, but rather involves combining subjectivity and objectivity in some way that eludes me at this point in my reading.

Here's some additional passages from the Double Vision chapter.

When we view ourselves from outside, a naturalistic picture of how we work seems unavoidable. It is clear that our beliefs arise from certain dispositions and experiences which, so far as we know, don't guarantee their truth and are compatible with radical error.

The trouble is that we can't fully take on the skepticism that this entails, because we can't cure our appetite for belief, and we can't take on this attitude toward our own beliefs while we're having them.

Beliefs are about how things probably are, not just about what they might possibly be, and there is no way of bracketing our ordinary beliefs about the world so that they dovetail neatly with the possibility of skepticism. The thought "I'm a professor at New York University, unless of course I'm a brain in a vat" is not one that can represent my general integrated state of mind.

The problems of free will and personal identity yield similarly unharmonious conclusions. In some respects what we do and what happens to us fits very naturally into an objective picture of the world, on a footing with what other objects and organisms do.

Our actions seem to be events with causes and conditions many of which are not our actions. We seem to persist and change through time much as other complex organisms do. But when we take these objective ideas seriously, they appear to threaten and undermine certain fundamental self-conceptions that we find it very difficult to give up.

For sure.

Looking at other people and other living beings, we see that everything which lives, dies. Looking at other people and other living beings, we also see that if a brain is seriously damaged, the consciousness of the being with that brain is altered for the worse.

Yet most humans have a belief that some part of them will continue to live on after their death, often termed a soul, no matter what happens to their body and brain.

That's because from the inside our consciousness seems to be ethereal, unitary, and timeless in some sense -- since we have been conscious from birth until now, while our body and mental contents have changed in countless ways.

I share Nagel's goal of doing our best to view ourselves, and the world, in as objective a fashion as possible.

This requires that we subject our own beliefs and ways of knowing to scrutiny, which isn't at all easy, because how see our own self and the world typically seems so natural, it's difficult for us to envision how that perspective could be any different.

One of Nagel's key ideas is that an objective viewpoint has to include the subjectivity of the viewer as one aspect of what is being perceived. Otherwise we make the mistake of considering that we know everything about some aspect of the world, whereas actually that knowledge should include the knower.

I enjoy learning about neuroscience and human psychology for this reason. I just wish that religious people also would consider that their sense of knowing what God, spirit, soul, heaven and such are like could be mistaken. Not just by a little, but by a lot. Still, we have to keep seeking truth while knowing that it won't be possible to grasp truth completely.

Nagel writes early on in his book:

I believe that the methods needed to understand ourselves do not yet exist.

So this book contains a great deal of speculation about the world and how we fit into it. Some of it will seem wild, but the world is a strange place, and nothing but radical speculation gives us a hope of coming up with any candidates for the truth.

That, of course, is not the same as coming up with the truth: if truth is our aim, we must be resigned to achieving it to a very limited extent, and without certainty.

To redefine the aim so that its achievement is largely guaranteed, through various forms of reductionism, relativism, or historicism, is a form of cognitive wish-fulfillment.

Philosophy cannot take refuge in reduced ambitions. It is after eternal and nonlocal truth, even though we know that is not what we are going to get.

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian Ji
You write
"Philosophy cannot take refuge in reduced ambitions. It is after eternal and nonlocal truth, even though we know that is not what we are going to get."

An ultimate truth for you, for your life, might be a belief system that helps you remain centered and focused.

Centered and focused are not absolute. But they can feel like objective places. And being in the center, without strong emotions, is a good place to review one's own life.

Any review, be it a journal, or an active internal dialogue with a deeper part of ourselves, can provide greater objectivity and personal strength. That double vision might also be a strong shoulder to lean on.

[Jesse]

"I just wish that religious people also would consider that their sense of knowing what God, spirit, soul, heaven and such are like could be mistaken. Not just by a little, but by a lot."

Combining this with the notion of radical speculation mentioned later by the book author brings me to one of my favourite(sic) ideas I've been imagining since childhood, and one which the ONE True God UGK (not to be confused with the Texan rap group) spoke about which is the possibility of there not even being 3 physical dimensions as we know them.

Imagine everything you have personally experienced and everything you know about, and imagine at all happening in 2d. It'll hurt your brain in a good way.

[tucson]

Blogger wrote in quotes:

"Looking at other people and other living beings, we see that everything which lives, dies. Looking at other people and other living beings, we also see that if a brain is seriously damaged, the consciousness of the being with that brain is altered for the worse."

-- In my view: Consciousness is never altered or changed. All manifestation is Consciousness.. including damaged brains. There is nothing that is not Consciousness.

"Yet most humans have a belief that some part of them will continue to live on after their death, often termed a soul, no matter what happens to their body and brain."

--In my view: Consciousness just is regardless of what happens to body and brain. Memories, identity, etc. may cease but Consciousness remains even if it is not aware of itself as itself. It just is. It does not require a vehicle.

When Consciousness "moves" manifestation occurs. Not the other way around.

Consciousness is not a part of "me" like a soul. "Me" is a concept that arises within Consciousness.

Same with body-mind. All are appearances in Consciousness as Consciousness.

A computer screen is seen. Consciousness is seeing Itself. It is all One in Consciousness.

Consciousness doesn't diminish or increase. It has no locus or dimension. It goes nowhere at death. It is always here and here is nowhere at all and simultaneously everywhere.

[Jen]

About consciousness, what is it exactly? Especially as we get older and start to realise that we no longer feel like the person we used to be. Our faculties are slowly becoming different, the brain is no longer as bright as it used to be.

Just been reading about Alzheimer disease/dementia and thinking how we rely on our brain and our every day consciousness but we seem to take it for granted not realising that our present state of consciousness can change quite dramatically and we might not even become aware of it, also meditation experiences could simply be hallucinations.

"Altered State (of consciousness) ... An altered state of consciousness is any mental state or condition that varies from a person's normal state of awareness. Things that can produce altered states include alcohol, drugs, dreams, hypnosis, meditation, sensory deprivation, or hallucinations."

[Anon]

Di you say
“However, the real dera/RSSB magic of 60s thru the early 90s has disappeared since the expansion of the organization into international centers.

Sad indeed! ”

I don’t see what’s sad about many more people being taught to live a spiritual life. Yes the sangat has grown from the 90s but this is a good thing for the people who never knew about spirituality to incorporate it into their lives.
Living in the western world I see a greater need for this than ever before on a daily basis. What’s sad to me is the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety and other mental issues. What’s also sad is the increase in substance abuse.
Di this is not sad it’s a good thing there is a growth in the number of people focusing on a spiritual life.
Redirect your focus.

[123abc]

According to Andy Weir's story, existence itself is simplified to taking on the form of an egg.

The story explains that both death and time do not really exist - they are concepts on earth that humans created.

Instead, The Egg explains that god created one single human. This human life grew and multiplied. And, since that time, whenever a human life died, it simply moved on to take the form of another life, reincarnated in past or present time.

Watch here: https://youtu.be/h6fcK_fRYaI

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Brian

Interesting info from Nagel’s book. From what you post he’s definitely interested in trying to suss out what things are about. You quote: “we aim toward: a gradual liberation of the dormant objective self, trapped initially behind an individual perspective of human experience. The hope is to develop a detached perspective that can coexist with and comprehend the individual one”.

The other day I was going on about a perspective of Kashmir Shivaism which appealed and made sense to me - a state where one can be both an individual and the universe at the same time. Arguably one could say Nagel is heading toward a similar though perhaps less grand view. Yet he brings it back to the limitations humans self-impose: “they [large scale objective ideas], appear to threaten and undermine certain fundamental self-conceptions that we find it very difficult to give up”.

The other thing I was going on about was the current neuroscience research into the brain’s Default Mode Network DMN. I’m not sure whether you have posted about it before. I see it as a whole new interesting take on how self/consciousness/energy and brain interrelate. From what I was reading this is an area of the brain that acts to filter/shut down certain ‘higher energy’
(entropic) states it can access. It [the DMN] is like a control valve on how much consciousness (objectivity?) the brain makes available to us. It also seems to be related to our ‘self-referenciality’ - hence the fundamental self-conceptions we find difficult to give up.
Some psychedelics reduce the DMN’s grip temporarily, whereas various long term meditational practices are more likely to produce a more permanent re-wiring.
Considering this further, it appears that the DMN was an evolutionary development to enable early humans to function effectively in the world. These days it looks like we need access to more of this ‘consciousness’, so as to to fundamentally change our behaviour in order to survive the mess we have created on/to the planet. For me, the bigger the objective view the less the notion of an isolated separate self - belief in the the latter a key cause for the dominant world view. Less separation = more consideration/empathy/wisdom etc. An evolutionary step?

I always appreciate what tucson has to say. As I see it, he presents both the objective view, and at the same time understands ‘he’ is an appearance in consciousness. To me at present this self/Self realisation is where it’s at. Reckon this probably shakes up the DMN quite a bit. :-).

Point taken Jen - that even full waking consciousness’ availabilty to us is a fragile thing, particularly as we age. All the more reason to spend attention on awakening to the ‘What is’ while we can - it certainly remains important to me.

Best wishes

[seeker]

Hi Anon, hope you are doing good.

Did you get any response from Ishwar Puri? I hope you remember our conversation, it was regarding Faqir Chand.

Also one more request can I get that audio which you guys were talking about?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
There is a calm place in meditation that we learn to make our home. It doesn't require thought or memory. It is a wonderful, peaceful place filled with light.

If we can learn to make that our second home, perhaps when our brain begins its natural decay, we can make it our first home.

However well the brain appears to function, it is abysmally slow, even at top health, and misses a lot. In fact the brain doesn't actually function fast enough to explain waking consciousness.

You also see this from that place of balance, where you can observe your own thoughts.

Hence the beauty of Mindfulness.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Anon
No business or organizational structures are necessary to spread the word about the benefits of meditation and spirituality.

You only need an organization for a brand, a corporate leader.

Love the leader in yourself.

And as you see with the mindfulness movement and the advances in meditation research, these are becoming common practices. Even taught to children in public schools.

Great Master's prediction that Sant Mat will eventually become the main practice is already coming true, but it may not be connected with RSSB.

Home Satsangs may have had their shortcomings, but they were sincere and didn't require handling cash, accumulating wealth.

So while meditation practice is becoming more popular, so is the rejection of avaricious and somewhat manipulative Gurus.

Real Sat Gurus exist, and Sadh Gurus such as Brian Ji. But they will not allow any false dependance upon a costumed actor, nor themselves, nor upon superstition of any kind and reject formal organizations, which all require some form of these.

They refuse and mock authority, preferring equality and intimacy in the pursuit of the true power within each of us. These traditional old school photocopies are barriers.

So while meditation becomes more popular, it is also nice to see the rejection of the false organizations and their false leaders. This was also Great Master's plan, I believe.

I agree that this is all progress.

[Anon]

Spence I’m sorry but I don’t agree with anything you wrote in reply to me. Different points of view so I won’t even go into responding to it.

Seeker yes email me I will send it to you

[Spence Tepper]

It's alright, Anon.
Each of us has a different experience, and that conditions our thinking.
But what is useful is to have all perspectives here at Church of the Churchless. Then each individual can choose what rings true for themselves. Or they can carry their own beliefs privately.

You are an RSSB Satsangi and believe in your Master, it seems, if I may ask? But the Master can also be different things to different people. And their purpose here is different in different ages.

The whole involvement in financial scandal is a strange twist. Naturally, if your Master is within you, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the goings on you see outside with RSSB. Your Gurinder is going to be different from the one in the midst of a billion dolllar fraud. But I suggest both are real.

The one whom pure love raises your spirits is just as real as the one who took and is delinquent in payment in hundreds of millions in illegal and unsecured loans. And not just him, but family members and key associates among RSSB leaders. Indeed, the entire fraud was conducted by a group of RSSB initiates, even though the actual attribution of individual responsibility among that group is yet to come to light.

It doesn't speak well of the RSSB culture today. A culture that has grown far worse than in earlier decades, not to say it was ever perfect.

But all that is quite distinct from the mystical role of the Master within.

I carry on because to me they are entirely distinct. But what is identical is the Inner Master's demand that I honor objective facts scrupulously, responsibly in all matters. The very Master who in the flesh is truly in the middle of one of India's greatest financial fraud is in fact the same being within who demands that we live an absolutely clean life dedicated to the Spirit, but entirely responsible in all worldly and financial matters.

So if He asks me to openly acknowledge the fraud, and to speak out in asking for His physical form to be forthcoming, and to offer my support, all without hiding, pretending, justifying or trying to ignore, then of course, I can only do as He asks. Pointing out that Brian Ji has hit his mark and is doing Maharaji's will, is just part of doing what Maharaji directs every day in meditation whenever I ask "can I please just stop with all this mud?" The answer has been "not yet."

I hope He has a good explanation, but it doesn't matter. I'm doing my duty. And that is, oddly enough, His Will.

So, once again, Baba Ji, please pay your delinquent bills so we can put all this behind us, and please let me know what I can do to help. Many of us would certainly appreciate an explanation, but that isn't necessary. Paying the debt is the important thing, and we are all here for you, just as you have been for us.

[Um]

@spence

>>I carry on because to me they are entirely distinct. But what is identical is the Inner Master's demand that I honor objective facts scrupulously, responsibly in all matters. The very Master who in the flesh is truly in the middle of one of India's greatest financial fraud is in fact the same being within who demands that we live an absolutely clean life dedicated to the Spirit, but entirely responsible in all worldly and financial matters.<<

In the past there were several satsangi's that acted on the command of their inner master an started their own branch and initiated people.
The suggestion by friends to have these inner commands was always rejected as they were taught that the inner master, after having checked with simran, was infallible so there was no need to do so.

St John of the Cross, writes in his explanation of the mystic poems, that the lord does touch people in darkness. He goes on to state that this inner touch often is accompanied by inner and/or outer experiences and that these experiences are often often taken for the very touch of the lord. That is not only an misstake but it also opens an avenue for other forces to manifest.

No doubt, it must be very difficult not to take these experiences as the very truth. The impact of movie, books, music is great, even greater the impact of vivid dreams and NDE's or the hearing of vocal commands, what to say about inner experiences.

Yes, the lord has commanded in visions many a human being, the prophet being one of the most well known but he always failed to repeat or replicate that vision in other humans nor did he give the rest of humanity the inner command to listen to the prophet.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
Unfortunately each of us must use our best judgement in choosing what to believe and what to do.

Honoring objective data, that can be verified by others, is a great safety net.

It may be the case that my inner Master is not yours.

But the objective facts of the delinquent loans have already been verified by others, including the high Court.

Beyond verifiable fact, there is merely opinion. When spirituality leads you to see and honor objective and verifiable truths, it serves truth.

But when someone's beliefs lead them to look the other way when harm is being done, I think that is a false belief, because it serves a cult of personality and not truth.

And those holding to these beliefs become part of the system of harm. They had the chance to acknowledge facts but chose the comfort of darkness. They could have made an honest assessment, they chose to discredit the messenger.

So the responsibility falls squarely upon their shoulders for the continuing harm being done.

[Um]

@spence,

Question is not whether your inner master is the same as mine, nor is it about the facts as these are brought before court.

You wrote that you are "forced" to take public action and to admonish the outer master to act as you deem fit based upon the words of your inner master.

The reaction was about the need for verification of the words of your inner master.

Again … the lord spoke to the prophet but he forget to speak to me, telling me that what the prophet said was the truth, nor ordering me to heed his words. … what remains is hearsay and blind belief.

And … no outer master can solve the problems that anybody can have with his behaviour in relation to their love and faith in him as being a genuine teacher. All have to decide for themselves.

Some, faced with the misconduct of the clergy, felt it necessary to turn their backs upon the church and their religion for others these were matters of the state and that particular clergy person and went on with praying for the welfare of themselve and others.

Of course those who feel they have to listen only to a genuine teacher, one that fits their personal idea of mastership, and ad the same time, don't want to turn their back upon what they are doing, have a problem and they will find some ort of justification for it. … but that is only for them.

There are two male members of my family, that have both very high ideals about their work they do. Unfortunately, the organisations they work for and the staff that runs these compagnies cannot come up to the mark they have set. To both of them I have said that they should not behave as "unpayed CEO's" their dutie was the work they are hired for.

A servant is a servant and not the king

His uncle time and again would say .. You people are poor beggars.
Poor in the sense that these beggars have al sorts of demands

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"You wrote that you are "forced" to take public action and to admonish the outer master to act as you deem fit based upon the words of your inner master."

" The reaction was about the need for verification of the words of your inner master."

You see where else can you confirm what you yourself wish to do?

Those experiences can't direct you, Um, only me.

Your inner life, inner psychology, directs you, and only you. That is true whether you can see through the darkness or not, whether you are aware of what moves you or not.

It is immutable. Whatever makes up "Um" determines without variation your thoughts, beliefs and actions.

Mine has the face of Maharaji. That's my inner situation. But regardless of the car you drive, the road you will take has already been taken by you. And so it is for me and everyone else.

You wrote
"There are two male members of my family, that have both very high ideals about their work they do. Unfortunately, the organisations they work for and the staff that runs these compagnies cannot come up to the mark they have set. To both of them I have said that they should not behave as "unpayed CEO's" their dutie was the work they are hired for."

" A servant is a servant and not the king"

I think they should do the best job they can, including learning how to learn from their peers.

Everyone thinks their perspective is balanced, but we see from where we are. No situation is ideal, but I think our challenge is to find a way to help other people do great things, in an atmosphere of helpfulness and teamwork. If it's not there, the challenge is to build it from the bottom.

The bricks at the bottom, the ones you can't see, are the very foundation of the company. The ones at the top, though high paid, are often the most unreliable, moving with the wind, often replaced, no more than statutes mounted like griffens and gargoyles, window dressing.

[Spence Tepper]

... Or only brightly colored flags of Griffens and Gargoyles, Angels, lions and elephants. The flags are beautiful, they symbolize great ideas. But they are just colored cloth, waving in the wind, drenched in rain, easily torn, and taken down as often as they are put up. They are far more vulnerable than you or I.

PS I do not admonish anyone. But I do acknowledge what's going on and offer to help.

[Um]

@ Spence it must be divine intervention of sorts. I wrote an answer but something went wrong on the keyboard and everything was gone … with the wind.

[Jen from Austin Texas]

Spence
The guru does not owe anyone anything and does not have any delinquent bills. Don’t believe everything you read in the press, they are all fabricated to mislead gullible people like you. The truth will come out.

[Spence Tepper]

One more thought Um.

When has a building ever been constructed from the top?

It is always built first by a foundation most never see. The ones at the bottom hold up the entire building, not the other way around. They were here first. They are always here.

The ones in the middle and at the top, enjoying their status, when they understand this, that they rely entirely upon the ones below them, the ones who live and toil in the most merest and meager circumstances, are humbled to silence. Because they realize these are the true leaders, the real sat gurus

[Jesse]

"Don’t believe everything you read in the press, they are all fabricated to mislead gullible people like you. "

I'm a firm believer that the media lies all the time. It's become a requirement in that profession. But to say I shouldn't believe well sourced stories backed up by court orders, but rather believe a random cult member who is leaving defensive comments online is crazy talk, Austin Jen.

You're asking us not to be gullible, but to instead be even more gullible.

Makes no sense.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen from Austin
You wrote
"The guru does not owe anyone anything and does not have any delinquent bills."

Do you have anything objective, transferable, any hard evidence to back up your conclusion? Something I could confirm?

I ask because there is so much hard evidence to the contrary, including the order of the high court. What is the basis for your view?

That would help.

[Jesse]

"I don’t see what’s sad about many more people being taught to live a spiritual life. Yes the sangat has grown from the 90s but this is a good thing for the people who never knew about spirituality to incorporate it into their lives. "

The arrogance in this statement is astounding. To think that nobody had a sense of what spirituality is, and in India of all places, without RSSB is unbelievable. And the expansion outside of India is for Indians as well. Mostly very devout people who are already knowledgeable about the spiritual topics RSSB deals in.

In the case of sharing a guru with millions of others, the main things you lose are probably both spirituality, and teaching. University students complain about their inability to ask professors questions because there are 100 kids in a class. How can you be taught anything by a man you don't know and who is running 50 businesses on the side of his guru gig? I can say confidently that I never learned anything from Gurinder Singh Dhillon. I was one of the .000001% or less who get to meet him or ask him a question briefly, and I was disappointed in his answer. I'd say a near majority of satsangis have never heard his voice, recorded or live, and don't know what he looks like outside of a photo.

How is he or his org teaching spirituality? It's a corporation that is so far beyond human scale they need violent security to keep phones out of their England center.

[Um]

@ spence
It is strange to read your words on the building of humanity.

Many years ago somebody else used that same comparison in relation to "marked souls":

"in order to give credit to the bricks in the roof you need bricks in the foundation.
What happens to the bricks in the foundation?
For this world to continue there have to be souls in the creation.
What does happen to them?
They are content to be there, they have no desire to go elsewhere.
Seeing the expression on my face, he went on on a very soft tone.
They are all part an parcell of the lord."

There and then the idea of marked souls, lost its meaning. I understood that whatever place a brick has in a building, is a matter of choice of the constructor of the building and one brick and its position is no more important than the other …. all have to live the life they are meant to live by the constructor of it all.

Crows for that reason are born as such, live as such and will die as crows.
What the constructor has created cannot be changed, it has to be lived to its full capacity.
Every living creature can make the best of his life.
At the end, if there is one and an judge to ask questions, he will ask:
I wanted you to be a crow, live in that place, in those circumstances, ni tell me how you handled them.
So the fullfilment of ones life is not to be found in altering oneself for the better, trying to change others and the world for the better.
This is what all creatures have in common … the gift of live

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um!
You wrote
"What the constructor has created cannot be changed, it has to be lived to its full capacity.
Every living creature can make the best of his life.
At the end, if there is one and an judge to ask questions, he will ask:
I wanted you to be a crow, live in that place, in those circumstances, ni tell me how you handled them."

The crow can only turn to the judge and reply " exactly as you willed. "

[um]

@spence
In the end creators, etc are human constructs based upon experiences of some talented or gifted persons.

The content of these experiences can not be verified as having an existence of their own apart of the one that experiences.

If the one that experiences disappears, we get again hear-say

If you like to drink tea, drink it, if not don't do it, it just doesn't matter.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"The content of these experiences can not be verified as having an existence of their own apart of the one that experiences."

That can be said for the entire creation. If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there, did it crash? Was there a sound? No one to hear it.

Likewise when you are gone, will all this exist? Not for you anymore. It will all have ceased to exist.

Verification can only be against your own experience, or what you choose to believe, based on your experience.

There's no getting away from that.

No one can believe what is beyond their conditioning and experience. It's impossible. That's what verification is, some link.

But to what? Your experience, which includes you education, your socialization.

People try to be detached in their thinking, try to be objective, but all that is lost in an imaginary objectivity. If God is a ln artificial creation, then so is objectivity.

People create standards that only apply to what they don't believe, rather than standards (and limitations) which apply, objectively, to all of us.

[Um]

@spence, I could not grasp the last sentence, maybe due to lack of understanding maybe lack of command of english or something else …

[SP]

Hi Spence

In relation to the financial scandal you wrote

Do you have anything objective, transferable, any hard evidence to back up your conclusion? Something I could confirm?

I ask because there is so much hard evidence to the contrary, including the order of the high court. What is the basis for your view?

Now with your access to astral and beyond, your divine vision should already tell you has GSD indeed committed a fraud, will he pay up, will he be convicted, will he go to jail etc

What's it gonna be?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
You wrote
"Now with your access to astral and beyond, your divine vision should already tell you has GSD indeed committed a fraud, will he pay up, will he be convicted, will he go to jail etc"

"What's it gonna be?"

I see where you are going with this thinking. You believe that access, say, a day trip to France, means that one has all knowledge of France, including Fluency in French, a knowledge of all their beautiful literature, history and an acquaintance with all the beautiful people there. Or that the ability to visit a library and check out any available book gives one infinite knowledge. If that were so all scholars would hold a much more enlightened, similar view.

If you can't speak French while you visit, you're experience will be greatly limited. In the library, if you don't understand higher math, or indeed the advanced concepts in literature, science and math, you will still be restricted to only the most rudimentary books which you can make sense of. The rest will appear as gibberish. There is a device there that let's you capture all of it, and you have it surgically b sewn in your brain. But the network it wifi's to only works when you are there.

And finally, whatever you can see on your visit to France, or learn from your visit to the library, will be restricted to what you can transfer, what you can take with you and communicate to others. The human brain is your tiny thumb drive, and it's ancient and smaller than 300kb. If I can't show you pictures of France, or show you the book, whatever I saw or read is meaningless to anyone else. At best I can take back with me some very rough impressions about my own limitations, seem from a higher place. Some very poor quality 65 dpi images, which I then have to reconstruct and try to make sense of in order to discuss.

But one thing I have learned. Whatever is there is connected to everything else. Including hear. Truths there are connected to facts here. So if we are here, we should try to use the facts available here.

Why ask about France when you can take quite a bit more time learning about your own home town?

Let's use the facts we have as best we can.

If you must go to Pluto to learn about a crime committed here, some thing's won't with that. We should use our brain 's capacity as much as possible, as responsibly a possible, to process information here. That's what my visit to higher regions teaches me.

When we open our eyes to reality here, we also gain a tiny step towards there.

When we close our eyes to reality here, we shut the door to that higher reality within.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"spence, I could not grasp the last sentence, maybe due to lack of understanding maybe lack of command of english or something else …"

I apologize. I wrote poorly.

Let me take another stab at it (said the vegetarian)

People create standards (for what they will consider to be truth, standards that sound objective but are unrealistic, like needing to have verifiable data for everything they don't already believe in) that only apply to what they don't believe (and these are not applied with equal rigor to their own unspoken assumptions about 'common truths' and beliefs) , rather than standards (and limitations) which apply, objectively, to all of us (the low standards for acceptability as truth which we all apply to those things we are familiar with and already accept just because we were raised that way... Hence they go largely unquestioned).

To an Atheist, there is no god. No facts meeting their own criteria exist.

To a believer, there is god, the guru passing by. No criteria except familiarity, and likeability.

To a mystic, it is all God. Everything we see is persistent.

[Um]

@Spence,
It made it more clear. Thank you.

[SP]

Spence,

Ok let me rephrase - doesn't your divine vision tell you what's it gonna be? Yes or No?

[Jesse]

"I see where you are going with this thinking. You believe that access, say, a day trip to France, means that one has all knowledge of France"

According to your guru you gain all knowledge of things in lower realms when you gain access to higher realms.

Now that you're claiming to have gone way up high past the extreme darkness and have essentially become a lower order saint, how did you not receive any riddhis and siddhis or even know your guru was involved in scandals? You're literally supposed to have miraculous healing powers by now.

Sounds like a really thick web of junk being woven.

Thanks to whoever posted that Buddha Boy article on one of these threads. I knew about him when he first came on the scene in 2005 or so and I thought it was bs immediately. Tibetan style Buddhists are pretty desperate to believe in things and their religion is mostly just a business of rituals.

Some here (Spence) will say "sure, Buddha Boy's a violent rapist, but what about his INNER form?" And others (Osho) will say that the satsangs were good and only really smart people understand Buddha Boys real oneness teachings. There's no rape or not rape in the unified whole.

The sadness. It never stops.

[SP]

Spence,

Keep it simple. You claim having gone past the Great Void. At this point there is no question of limited knowledge or fuzzy pictures or ability to look into the future and the past (previous lives)

So

Either you know but are prohibited from disclosing

or

Your claims is a pack of lies

or

The ONE blocks you from looking into it

If it were 1 or 3 you would have simply said so and I would have respected your reply. But.......

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP and Jesse!
I've explained what I know from my experience. I'm sorry if it doesn't fit the theology you have learned, or your interpretation of it.

But if you ask a question, then what is your point? To simply discredited a view that is different from your own?

You will have to accept that whatever I've said is my perspective.

I realize that's difficult for some people. Give it some time.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"Some here (Spence) will say "sure, Buddha Boy's a violent rapist, but what about his INNER form?"

No that's false, Jesse. You should really ask before putting words into someone else's mouth.

I've written extensively that Baba Ji needs to follow all the laws of right conduct.

But you would put the exact opposite words in my mouth.

Jesse, you need to clean your mirror.

[Spence Tepper]

OK SP and Jesse
Yes I saw the future and replied to your comments before you made them ;)

From above,...

"To an Atheist, there is no god. No facts meeting their own criteria exist.

To a believer, there is god, the guru passing by. No criteria except familiarity, and likeability.

To a mystic, it is all God. Everything we see is persistent."

[Jesse]

"I'm sorry if it doesn't fit the theology you have learned, or your interpretation of it."

No it's the exact opposite of this. You're reciting RS theology but missing important parts of it. Your description is almost directly taken from RS books which makes me doubt the authenticity, especially when you pretend like none of us have read "the books" and can't remember this stuff.

Furthermore, your ideas change from one comment to the next. You claim you're just expressing your experiences. But then you also claim to know the nature of others' experiences and the nature of the beings they encounter in inner worlds. Fine. But now you're saying that just because you've had some experiences doesn't mean you know more than what you've personally experienced.

So basically, you continually contradict yourself. And now when we notice you get strangely defensive and snarkily apoligize for not meeting our theological expectations. Theology that you belive in and verbatim recite, not us.

Congratulations. You sound schizo and/or like the worst used car salesman alive.

[SP]

Spence you said

"Yes I saw the future and replied to your comments before you made them ;)"

Wake up and smell the coffee my friend. Mine were questions which your 30,000 feet Gyan doesn't answer still.

And like I said if your reply was anyone of the three I listed, you could have exited with grace - for any of the three would be in line with RSSB teachings.

You sure you aren't in some replica of the par Brahm region? You were wrong in parts about Maha Sunn as well.

Anyways, what I find plausible is that you can still see the future though you might be wandering in some fake inner structures - replicas probably. So how about you responding to my next intended question and in the process saving me the trouble of posting it in here.

Also my friend, you would know who Jesse's father is. The poor fella I suspect is not showing off but struggling to find the answer.

How about addressing his struggle and ending the suspense in here about who is Jesse's father.

Cheers

SP

Jesse, ooops My Master, no hard feelings please.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"No it's the exact opposite of this. You're reciting RS theology but missing important parts of it. Your description is almost directly taken from RS books which makes me doubt the authenticity, especially when you pretend like none of us have read "the books" and can't remember this stuff."

Yes, this has been your repeated remark. But Look again at what I wrote.

" "I'm sorry if it doesn't fit the theology you have learned, or your interpretation of it."

This is a truthful statement, Jesse. What you label schizo is simply the fact that my experience doesn't fall in line with everything you believe Sant Mat is supposed to be.

You're not alone. Several Satsangis take umption with my concerns about the financial scandel. But to me it is all real, and I honour that.

Where the law of gravity holds, I honour it. But in other places where it seems, in my experience, other dynamics are at work, I honour that also. I'm a student of my own experiences, but can't claim to be an expert in any theology, or even in the sale of used cars. Perhaps you can enlighten us about both.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
You wrote
"You were wrong in parts about Maha Sunn as well."

Please enlighten us, and if you will, provide the sources for your conclusion.

This is what I've also asked of Dr. Lane, as he is an expert on the literature about this.

Add for my limited experience, that is all it is.

But as for your superior knowledge of Sant Mat theology, please educate. Information is much more useful than accusation.

Information can bring us together in a common understanding, at least in concept.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
You had earlier commented
"At this point there is no question of limited knowledge or fuzzy pictures or ability to look into the future and the past (previous lives)

So

Either you know but are prohibited from disclosing"

There are at least two levels of wakeful consciousness in meditation. Maybe three or more. Where you start, then a calm relaxed place where other thoughts and issues just don't touch you. And then there is this greater awareness, this expansion. And that expansion becomes the first step...

At first that expansion is perceived as a huge space. There is a sensation that, even in the dark, you are now in something like a cathedral... A very large space. As you remain calm, focused on God, or your ideal of the perfect good, beyond all worldly thoughts, that large space becomes flooded with light.

Even if you open your eyes, you see the room you are in, which may be dark, but another sense sees the room in blinding light. Every corner is clear.

Once you cease meditating, and begin to take up the threads of thought, the walls close in again, and you are back in that tiny space of your own thoughts. It is only when you have gone through this several times that the experience is even vaguely impressed upon /vremembered by your tiny brain.

In some ways, there are two "you"s. And one is not generally aware of the other.

And if you don't stay with meditation, it's easy to forget entirely what happened. But if you return to meditation, including the preparation, the vows, a relatively stable life, then in time you remember all the experiences. They all return.

Now this notion that once you reach a stage you never are confined by the lower limited brain simply is not what I've experienced. Not at any stage. Master can take you right to the top, and frequently. And you, if you do not stay with meditation, can forget all of it.

When we return to our daily thinking we are subject to all the same problems and limitations, blindness, emotions, addictions. It is only through repeated visits to those higher places that some of that becomes impressed upon the brain as memory. It is impressed often as nothing more than inspiration.

In time, the ability to fly up there gets better. Can be done in a moment.

But that is generally decades or more of work.

So this idea that once you get somewhere it's done, well, there is still work to be done.

The spider may indeed climb all the way to the ceiling, but he also slips and falls back down. After many long years, he crawls up like a snail. Slow and steady, but no loss of progress.

[Jesse]

Spence, as I said, you don't solely make claims about personal experience.You're saying that's all you do, but it isn't true. You claim to know the nature of reality to a certain degree, including the amounts of heavens that exist, the nature of lights that others see in these astral worlds, not what you see, you have said you know what other souls are doing and what their purpose is if my memory serves me, and almost all that you say identically lines up with RSSB books except for your personal attainment of magic, or even the ability to judge the character of a conman. This is the "theological" part.

It's only when, likely out of forgetfulness, that your experience drifts from those that are "theologically" spelled out by RSSB. Why else would you even use terms like "the inner master?" This is theological and sectarian terminology. You didn't say "the likeness of this turbaned man who i've read about and seen pictures of" which is what someone who wasn't part of the sect would likely say. The same goes for all "your" experiences.

Nobody needs to contact David Lane. He's busy making youtube videos about taking LSD and mystic surfing. We just need people to use better language to describe personal experience, or if they're b.s.ing us to not do so.

[Milton]

Spence Tepper

Can you give your e-mail, I would like to contact you privately.

Milton

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You asked
"Why else would you even use terms like "the inner master?"

Because I experience Maharaji in meditation. But I wouldn't pretend to know who or what others see in their practices.

Some people see other things. Remember that the human brain is a symbol - making organ. Some inner stimulation, which is uplifting, which unifies and actually helps heal the body, which inspires, which teaches us our own deepest most objective thoughts, can take the form which we associate with perfection, however vague that goal is. And it must be a little vague because we aren't there yet. It's a goal, not an accomplishment. So our brain can turn that into the translation of an image and a being. And focusing upon Him, unifies everything within us, helps open the door to Shabd, raises our thinking, our feeling into ecstacy, and opens so many doors, even beyond all thinking, beyond even our inner sensation. And of course, to the form of our Master that is blazing light.

These are all internal experiences, using built - in internal functions within the brain that takes us to places within this body.

Like any athlete, this is practicing using latent capabilities within us.

You may not like the way the brain actually works. But these mechanisms are there, and symbolic imagery is part of that, a tool everyone uses to accomplish anything, worldly or internal.

That's why.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
Whenever I share my personal experiences it is only for others who are practicing to compare against their own personal experiences, and in that process gain some third insight. And if they share, I gain the same Benefit.

But for anyone to compare to some written theology is fairly meaningless. If you aren't in the lab running your own experiments, the technical details of someone else's experiments has no utility.

If you have no intention to try to generate results from your own work, why comment? Of course, if you find it entertaining, that's OK. And I welcome your criticism as long as you put forth your best witty humor, which are gems.

I'm commenting here hoping to see some of those biting jewels any time now...

[SP]

Spence

Your post of September 08, 2019 at 09:01 AM

Knowledge vs experience - its not a fair duel.

Strange that somebody who claims to have access to and traversed the regions of Maha Sunn and beyond (first hand experience) still seeks views of some supposed expert on 'literature about it' or for that matter of a novice like me (did you forget I don't meditate at all LOL)

Doesn't your experience tell you all there is to that particular region?

Instead of seeking views, my suggestion to you is - tonight when you attend to your meditation take a closer look at the region - probably go to ports you haven't been too. Think of it like you visiting France ya. I suppose Maharaji is always there for you to carry you through the region. Am in right?

Do also share the literature expert view on the region once you get it. BTW its the same David Lane who has penned The Journey: A Voyage of Light and Sound right

[New_in_here]

Spence,

What path are you on? Are you sure its Sant Mat a.k.a. Surat Shabad Yoga or some utterances by a fake Guru. You give too much importance to the Brain - a organ decaying every second.

Haven't you as yet realized that the Mind is an Entity just like the Soul and Brain is at best a tool to help the physical body get by in the physical plane. I thought this would have been obvious to you already as this is the core of Sant Mat.

[SP]

Hi Spence

You are welcome to broadcast your experiences and this not just in here. Initiate a Cosmic Call 3 if you wish. Just ensure you do not position it as experiences following the RSSB/Sant Mat path. A progressed soul on Sant Mat (individual onto the inner path) DOES NOT talk about or narrate his/her inner experiences. Mystics in fact have advised against doing so for various reasons some of which may involve unpleasant consequences. And sharing Sant mat inner experiences for the sake of comparing it with others - total crap!!!!!!

So Spence another unfortunate slip up my friend.

[SP]

Spence you said

"But for anyone to compare to some written theology is fairly meaningless. " This was in context with experiences

Why then are you seeking views of some supposed expert on 'literature about it' and from even me as well.

Stop making a fool of yourself please

[Spence Tepper]

Hi New
Is In a satsangi, and yes in that system we learn to overcome the mind on meditation, to achieve a higher level of objectivity. That is our experience.

However, the mind and the brain are connected. And there is little evidence that mind exists without brain.

It is entirely possible that all the regions of spirituality are part and parcel of the human brain. To overcome mind may simply be moving from one reactive part of the brain, into another, more expansive part of the brain. Also, the brain receives local emf signals. There may be ways this human brain is connected to other parts of this physical universe, despite its decay. There is so much we don't know about the brain.

So long as our experiences are personal and subjective, we cannot claim to understand these things conclusively. However it is fair to say that all the experiences discussed in sant Mat may be placed within, and with some discipline, can visit within the brain.

Saints do teach that a model of the entire creation is inside each person.

So when Nagel speaks about finding a more objective view, detached from our worldly opinions and limited perspective, that may well be inside the human brain.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
You didn't answer my question. Your understanding of Maha Sunn?

From the comment you referred to..

'You wrote
"You were wrong in parts about Maha Sunn as well."

' Please enlighten us, and if you will, provide the sources for your conclusion.'

How can I acknowledge what you claim when you are unwilling to back up your statements?

[SP]

Spence, since you keen to know my understanding of Maha Sunn and where you erred. Also this is not in anyway to seek your acknowledgement or for that matter anybody else's to my claim.

Maha Sunn is where (for want of a better word) the UNKNOWN resides - absolutely hidden by the absolute darkness the UNKOWN surrounds itself with..It's the foutainhead of everything that is, has been and ever will be including the respective presiding entities with Kaal and Satpurush at the top of this (presiding entities) hierarchy.

Only two know about this reality - Kaal and Satpurush. You might wonder how do I know this - remember I said recently I am on the way to taking over from current Kaal. Jeez I had to expend hell of lot of 'out of this world currencies' to get him to agree that he will pass on the gaddi to me and take on the role of an advisor to me. So much like the current happenings in a sect you familiar with right and of which, one past head you claim is your master.

You said your Master carried you at immense speed through this region. Little is also said about this region by the mystics.

Atleast now do you know why.

Oh yes I all most forgot some super privileged of what's referred to as souls dwell with the UNKNOWN of course unseen to and not experienced by any passerby. They are busy playing hide n seek amongst themselves - of course in the absolute darkness. What an ingenious way to keep them busy.

From the rest, some the Satpurush appropriates and to give them a sense of privilege refers them as his marked sheep and the supposedly doomed simply enjoy in Kaal's domain.

So I enjoy; but what I amuses me the most is at the end of it all it's only all about one happy go lucky family comprising the UNKNOWN, Kaal and Satpurush, with the two brothers in arms happily sharing the spoils amongst themselves.

So why not you enjoy as well.

Want to still ask that David Lane fella. If I were you I would Instead go tell him. LOL.