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September 16, 2019

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Hi Brian Ji
Your list is fair and factual.
The shaming of any critical observations, even when they are efforts to be helpful, might be my contribution as item 11, or else item 3b. It seems to be part and parcel of the dangers of GIHF as a tenet. You can believe he is just a good friend, but the social milieu places all events within the firm interpretation that He is doing what is best for you, no matter what happens. So there is actually social punishment for openly believing he is just a guy.

There is a logical educational process that starts with being open minded, and looking scientifically at your own experience, but then it is gradually replaced with the appeal to emotion and social acceptance, and in the process there is the complete lack of transparency with how the organization handles its finances, and, surprise surprise, the inevitable corruption of the scandal, to the tune of a billion US dollars, all at the hands of RSSB initiates.

Truth invites inspection. Cults hide from it. There, is that simple enough to become item 12? Or maybe item 6b, although the theme seems to run through many of your points, all fair and accurate.


You could add the following;
* Believing unquestionably in what is written in RSSB books. I once brought up to a relative that Swami Ji smoked a hookah pipe and there was documentary and photo (drawing?) evidence to this effect. This was flat out denied as that is not what a Saint would do!
* Believing in untenable metaphysical dogmas such as transmigration of human 'soul' into animal bodies. Who or what decides this and who or what decides a given animal form is suitably 'low' to indulge animal desires in? Absolute anthropomorphic nonsense!
* Believing that a middle aged Indian businessman is tantamount to an avatar or divine incarnation.
* Encouraging children to attend satsang out of some sense of duty and actively encouraging them to take up the doctrine and 'faith'.
* Taking on meditating at Sadhu or professional ascetic levels of 2.5 hours a day; when most meditative teachings encourage a much more moderate uptake.
* Believing in mythological motifs as literal facts; thus Kal simply means time in Sanskrit and has been anthropomorphized into a literal being.
* Praying to the guru as though he is the very divine and asking particular favours of that deity.
* Trying to deny that it thinks it's doctrines and practices are superior to all other teachings when in fact the RSSB literature is shot through with how Shabd Yoga trumps vedanta in particular and all other paths in general. Indeed Satsangis are 'marked souls' which is another way of saying 'chosen people'.

There is so much more so go ahead and find your cult tendencies to add to the list.

This happens when run of the mill people become Gurus and their whole life is no different than ordinary dumb driven herd. I give you a litmus test to identify these kind of Gurudom Gurus. Just compare the life of first Saint Jaimal Singh with rest of them. Baba Jaimal Singh was not interested in marriage and begetting wards. Probably he had the true seeking of divine energy in his heart and nothing else.

Where humans are together, in order to avoid conflicts, their activities are regulated … I use to call these activities … "games people play together"

In a state there are three powers, the trias politica. If all goes wel these are separate powers. One that gives law, one that acts upon these laws and justice.

For a game to continue as such it has to be played according the set rules for that game. Transgressions of those rules are punishable by law are one is expelled from the game.

Take your own blog …. all participants have to play the game according the rules that are set by you … the triiaspolica is all in YOUR hands … strictly spoken … you are the only one that can and does dictate how the game of your blog is to be played … if not you delete them.

When does an religious organisation or any other political organisation becomes a "cult" when people are not free to leave the game and/or are forced to act according the rules against their likings.

If you want to play football and if you don't do it according the rules, you may receive a warning, an penalty and in extreme cases you are banned …. but nobody will force you to play foodball … there lies the difference,

In a democratie, you also have to live according the rules and if you don't you are punished by the same rules … it is up to you, your freedom, how you will deal with those rules . There so to say mutual consent about the rules.

In a totalitarian regime, a "politcal cult" that freedom doesn't exist …. THAT is the only difference.

Personally I understand the many rules that are laid down, in organisations, politics and religions but have difficulties with how these rules are oftenexecuted by individual officials. This sensitivity has caused me to voluntary stay away from places and situations, where this emotional allergy can be triggered.

He started out by saying "stand shoulder by shoulder"
That was and is a wise advise for ALL human activities with other human beings for if there is no common goal where the attention is put upon one will turn ones head from looking forward to looking sidewards and … there … is the other. If one starts looking at the other, soon the problems will arise.

So what matters is sharing a common goal, a common game. as soon as that willingness to participate is gone, only ugly force can make others to continue …. and that is followed by inquisitions,

So, i don't consider RSSB not a cult, but the way they play their game these days are not to my liking … exclude the personal contacts I had with GSD

@ Nick,
there are children that can play whole afternoon with a shoe box and match boxes, thinling it to be a garage and cars … brm, brm … there are children who don't have that capacity and see shoe boxes for what they are .. shoe box.... they too have to spend their days ….

Almost everything in life is unbearable if you don't like it .. parents, brothers and sisters, school, even an visit to a movie or theatre.

That is why in monastries one or two years are used under the supervision of an novice-master to find out if that is what the novice really wants and to which degree his calling is contaminated by ulterior and selfish motives. Monastic life is onlt beneficial for those who like that way of life otherwise it will soon be hell on earth.

In my opinion following a mystic tradition is just the same … if you likings becomes to often "have too" it will be difficult to contiue

It cannot be a cult:

1) No coercive persuasion. You are perfectly free to leave any time you wish, which is what you did. You don’t have to give up your religion or anything else, and you need to ensure that you are contributing to society. It asks nothing from you - what you put in is what you will get out - entirely up to you.

2) No worship required. The guru has said he is not the master, that instead the shabd is the master, he is a guide who can teach you to connect with the shabd. To do so requires focusing the mind during meditation. Outside of meditation you are strong encouraged to maintain critical thinking.

3) No economic exploitation. You don’t pay a cent towards anything. It is entirely up to you whether you wish to donate or not (eg free healthcare hospitals). It is also up to you if you wish to buy the books. The guru has said these are fairly pointless, it’s the meditation that is important.

If a cult has the aims of:
- giving free healthcare to the poor
- alleviating suffering
- raising spiritual awareness
then it seems to me the world is a far better place with more cults in it.

Yes of course RSSB is a cult. It's self evident. In one of the books Charan Singh said that it's a cult.

I think the rushed printing of a living hagiography about Charan Singh before he died was like a Kim family way to justify as divinely inspired his choice of family relative successor . Treasure Beyond Measure I believe was the book. If printing a book about all these hidden miracles and interviews of worshipful praise about oneself from close disciples isn't cultish I don't know what is.

They did those picture books too with Charan Singh looking over a field of slaves carrying baskets of dirt on their head in the 120 degree sun of Punjab as he sits there in fine garments drinking chai and being fat with someone holding a parasol over his head.

"Oh look at the love master has for his marked souls!"

Whether he had love for his disciples I don't know but i certainly do know that those disciples working hard under the sun, liked what they were doing.

Even if their work was "stolen" from them, as they didn't get payed for it, food and shelter being free, nobody could have stolen their joy.

If the buildings I happened to work for free in the was were to be sold for much money and he would put it in his pocket, I still would remind those days as joyfull and would do it again.

Personally i am little interested in clergy, popes etc .. when i went to church when young I did it only for my own reasons, happy to have a cool silent place in the hot summer, where I could read a book and left alone.

If I was duped, then they did it on their own cost.

Jesse,

How come you missed

- the chains that bound those slaves together and the whip masters ready to crack their whips for every failed step or stumble.

- the love the marked souls had for the master in the 120 degree sun of Punjab.

My friend every so called slave will without fail say the best Seva they ever did was this carrying baskets of dirt.

Your divine vision failed you this time

"My friend every so called slave will without fail say the best Seva they ever did was this carrying baskets of dirt."

Then why are so many leaving the cult and the only ones joining are those whose family makes them do it under pressure?

Of course people feel good being abused by their abusers. It's called stockholm syndrome, and it's one more example of why RSSB is a cult. They teach you to love them through fear and future promises.

I'm not against cults, by the way. I recognize them as part of the human experience. They serve a good purpose at times. It's just that they all bore me at this time in my life.

Georgy you say "It cannot be a cult" and then provide nothing of substance. It's a funny thing to say that it cannot be what it is, and then simply provide your own criteria instead of the ones agreed upon by everyone but yourself. I'm going to start saying a tree cannot be a tree unless it can fly. Because that would be Dadaist, and Dada is a cult that frowns on contradictions and absurdities.

It takes two to tango. If Brian seriously thinks that RS is a cult then allowing a book which "lures" people into that cult should be withdrawn. The book Life is Fair is sold at various satsangs. One wonders when the author will ask for it to be withdrawn, since the author wouldn't want to be in collusion with a cult leader and his cult.... leading the innocent astray.

I see no reason to support such a cult with a book that says otherwise.

Jesse you wrote:

>>Then why are so many leaving the cult and the only ones joining are those whose family makes them do it under pressure?<<

Because the culture has changed.

A friend of mine, a gifted majolica painter had collecting customers that travelled hundreds of miles to buy his tiles. One day, I told him it was over. Today one can find hand painted majolica in secondhand shops for a fraction of the original price. He stopped and with him the oldest factory.

In older days it was unthinkable that it would ever stop. Majolica was part of a society with SHARED VALUES. If you dear to go to a wedding party these days and offer the a piece of majolica the will throw you out, thinking you lost your mind.

This is what happend with many things one valued by all in society.

Last week, the last "esoteric" bookshop in town closed its doors. Before we had already seen the book shelfs with "esoteric books" shrink and shrink. As we saw more an more churches close their doors …..

The days of eastern music have lso gone … no more ravi shankars, ali brothers etc in concert.
A tv programm on music only once in a while will bring eastern music instead of weekly in the past

So many things of the recent past have lost their meaning and value and have nothing to offer to the modern mind ….

It's a cult.

@ SP love has to be two ways. No one knows if this path is actually to merge with a demiurge . You could be infatuated with Johanna Scarlett or if you are a woman- Brad Pitt. Point is that love is one way.

They like land too. Be very careful who you love.

I suggest that all of you read Malcolm Gladwells "talking to strangers" . Shows how much we do not know. None if us knows what goes on behind closed doors at beas . Unfortunately it will have to open its accounts very soon. That scandal hasn't gone away. And who exact was it supposed to help? I know a lot of poor satsanghis. It surely wasnt them.

Lear Jets . Nice holiday homes and failed business ideas . That my friend is seva !

But Jesse what kinda cult provides free healthcare to the poor ? V strange.

Sri Hinesy Ji was a cult member for 35 years and as far as I know he wasn’t exploited (financially or sexually) and left easy peasy puddin ‘n pie. He continues to meditate with a veggie diet - so what exacly was the ghastly damage inflicted by this sinister cult ?

"But Jesse what kinda cult provides free healthcare to the poor ?"

John Gotti and El Chapo both provided health care to the poor.

You're not ready for this topic, Georgy.

More reasons proving RSSB is a cult:
The Baba threatens seekers to make a thorough study of RSSB literature and teachings before applying for initiation, adding that they must be of a certain age.
Forces seekers and initiates alike to adopt a healthy plant based diet while avoiding harmful toxins such as alcahol and recreational drugs.
Warns people to lead a moral lifestyle, especially earning money by honest means.
And like all serious cults, once you’re in you can’t get out.
Oh fuck 😱
Wait a minute....

"adopt a healthy plant based diet while avoiding harmful toxins such as alcahol and recreational drugs."

Except that vegetarianism isn't healthy for everyone. Some people suffer greatly by having religious leaders decide their diet for them.

"Recreational drugs" are the reason the borrowed philosophy of RSSB even exists. The Vedas pay homage to them and offer prayers to one "recreational drug" in particular.

Millions storm RSSB satsang cenres every weekend around the globe for rote learning of Truth - God - His myriad ways with only message - get. first hand, direct interaction. w ith absolute reality behind eyes in the darkness meditating on Guru recognising Him.as spiritual guide.

They are unmindful of the worldly facts about RSSB, now talk of town in media and here. On being asked whether a disciple can recognise the Real Guru among a pack of Gurus as in India. He replied 'Never'.

I think His disciples therefore can not discern between Good and Bad as also between Best and Worst of spiritual guides. And take for granted what is before them (most) as Live Truth here and now then struggle in meditation to prove same to themselves. This is exactly what Master wishes from sheeps marked for Him.

The irony is perhaps there is a disconnect between Invisible and visible domains of a Saint and logical We can at the best disclaim Him based upon His worldly slips/delinquencies which may be His crafty ways to deal with us.

Anyways it is the Belief borne out of the renowned legacy, Individual inner/ outer experiences, the personal invisible helps, the command on inner guidance etc by the present Master that overpowers some hidden, may be dark reality of today about RSSB and its Guru. Therefore attrition rate is still very low from this CULT as proclaimed by the author.

He is grand because He sits on the throne which has been of impeccable integrity for over. a century which is difficult to contest till it is discredited oof its Spiritual worth to mankind.

@onenesscult
You clearly don’t understand copyright law. When Brian write “life is fair” he did it as a seva for RSSB and they put a copyright on it. You will note it does not say copyright Brian Hines
It says copyright RSSB like all their books.
They own the copyright and can publish it without his permission.

Georgy Porgy you are clearly proRSSB even though you claim you are not initiated, which I don’t believe considering how strongly you support RSSB.
So the “no comments online” rule does apply to you and I am going to phone the RSSB security to pay you a visit and punch you in the face for this constant rule infringement.
And if that doesn’t work your pc will be confiscated and examined for evidence that maybe you too have been recording satsangs.

Yep pretty much exactly what Mike England said above, how ridiculous can you get?

How terrible if the world had more cults like this.

Osho are you still crying over the ‘minor incident’? Cry-baby bunting went looking for trouble (do you know who I am?) and found it. Mr big deal awareness actually got a dose of awareness and is now complaining.

Go phone the RSSB security volunteers.

I will make pals with them easy as, they seem v nice. I have the tea and scones ready.

Again, why are you the only person who cannot behave properly. Banned on the Friday, biffed on the Saturday. At Haynes Park no less. What in god’s name are you actually doing to get such special treatment?

Just read the article that is linked above from the text “against taking notes at his talks”
It says
“ Science of the Soul followers are vegetarians, abstain from alcohol, drugs and sex outside of marriage, believe in reincarnation and are required to meditate for more than two hours each day on an intense spiritual journey toward enlightenment.”

It should also say “However, unprovoked and premeditated attacks on defenceless members is tolerated as long as it is done on the pretext of service.”

"Then why are so many leaving the cult and the only ones joining are those whose family makes them do it under pressure?"


Jesse,

Two parts

On the first - how do you know many are leaving? what do you have in support of the statement? Any statistics? Evidence indicates RSSB is growing rapidly.

So many leaving all disgruntled and disillusioned.... coming to the doors of CoC? CoC should list on NYSE pretty soon given its burgeoning membership.

On the second: Mike England missed some points one being that the Baba has officially instructed Sevadars to ask seekers - Are they taking initiation under family pressure? And admission granted only if answered in the affirmative.

Did you know following the Vatican ways, the Baba too has set up a 'conversion' department, Sevadars being mandated to bring into the path an X number of members each month through deceit and unfair means like bribery, promises of miracles, Baba will solve all your problems, Baba is 21st century Jesus Christ blah blah. Year end performance linked bonus thrown in too.

Then you say

"They teach you to love them through fear and future promises."

Do they? Nobody teaches anybody to love "them" (whoever the them are), through fear or future promises. The only place I see fear at RSSB is amongst some positioned Sevadars scared of losing their positions. Fear elsewhere not at all. I publicly proclaim I don't meditate. Any signs of fear in me? And thousands like me exist. Forget fear, we aren't even ashamed of facing GSD despite our many misdeeds and shortcomings including snoring in Satsangs sitting in the front enclosure. We all actually live in a comfort zone of never being shamed. Exer's and non believers abuse GSD and the sect. Any fear in you guys? Have fucking guts - insult Mohammad, Koran, the Granth Sahib and some others as well. My friends will then understand fear perpetrated in the name of God/Religion

It's made explicitly clear who is the only one worthy of your love and worship and this one certainly isn't the one who sits on the stage, moves around in Benzs or Lear Jets. It's a different story that most self proclaimed Satsangis do not take this message

No future promises too. No magic wands at work. You want to realise God... You work your way through to him. No promised privileges or short cuts on a platter


"how do you know many are leaving? "

Everyone at Dera and Chaturpur was old. Local sangat was old and young people were leaving. Only ones remaining were those who'd grown up in "radha soami families." Maybe

"Evidence indicates RSSB is growing rapidly."

Yeah. In Africa maybe and other places where it's new and novel.

Maybe I'm wrong and RS is growing and relevant. I do'nt care either way. It's a stupid cult regardless of its size. People who follow it tend to be mentally damaged or stupid as well.

"Do they? Nobody teaches anybody to love "them" (whoever the them are), through fear or future promises. "

All Gurus in Radha Soami teach you'll be reborn infinite times in hells, as tortured animals, or worse(fear), and the only way not to be is via initiation from "perfect master" (future promise of salvation). All the "perfect masters" are the "thems" who are teaching this.

"It's made explicitly clear who is the only one worthy of your love and worship and this one certainly isn't the one who sits on the stage, moves around in Benzs or Lear Jets. It's a different story that most self proclaimed Satsangis do not take this message "

At best it's "implicitly unclear." Every RS book that is sold, the philosophical foundations of the religion itself says that the man on stage is an avatar of manifest shabd, and that shabd is the power of god. So, yes, the man in the lear jet is god according to RS. This is never disputed. Ever. Nowhere in any RS talk or literature has this been disputed.


Let me know when you are ready to have an honest conversation. I'll be here for you when you wake up.

"but the social milieu places all events within the firm interpretation that He is doing what is best for you, no matter what happens. So there is actually social punishment for openly believing he is just a guy. "

It's not the "social milieu" at least in any non top down way. It's the RS dogma. The social punishment wouldn't happen were it not that you are taught that the man in front of you is actually god.

People (not necessarily Spence in this case. But probably Spence too) are trying to somehow put the blame for any faults within RSSB on everyone other than the leader of RSSB, which is odd because one of RSSB's repeated teachings is that all good things are master's grace, and all bad things are our personal fault via karma. When you blame the people for creating a negative atmosphere instead of the "master" you're simply adhering to RS dictates.

The latest fad is to diminish "the master's" role to being merely a guide and friend, but again, how is he guiding anyone? With "darshan?" By giving speeches of Sikhism quotes that you can find on the internet without a guru? How does someone you don't know guide you in any way at all if not through supernatural powers?

You are taught to meditate by imagining his face for god's sake. Do any other guides in your life ask this of you? Do Sam Harris's mindfulness podcasts ask that you watch your breath and gaze upon your memory of his face? Did your parents tell you that they'd help you in life no matter where you were and that you could be carried by them if you only did dhyan on their face? If so your family is weird.

The other argument I'm seeing is one that says that since there are worse cults, then RS isn't a cult. It's like saying since UFC exists, Osho didn't get punched. Makes no sense at all. Cults, like everything in existence, have variations in severity and degrees of cultishness.

Not all cults are Keith Ranier sex cults with access to dozens if not hundreds of gorgeous and willing women who exist to satisfy your every need with an expertise rarely found outside of Thailand. Some cults just ask that you close your eyes, repeat words you don't understand endlessly, and hope that the crumbs in some old dudes beard that you're imagining become orbs of soul light.

Too bad the feds took down NXIVM. They had a good thing going.

The free healthcare was more in Huzoor Maharaj ji's time. As soon as GSD came on the scene.

Eye camp was stopped as well as the free hospital I believe.

@ Shakuni

Yes it was closed down and sold off. So much for love . What a con.

Shakuni and Arjuna please check your information it is absolutely wrong. There are 4 charitable hospitals running as we speak.
Details are below
Www.rssb.org/hospitals.html

Anon is correct with two additional pieces of information. One charitable hospital in Mohali was sold to Fortis Healthcare. Another new 200 bed RSSB charitable hospital being built was transferred to Fortis Healthcare also.

RSSB still maintains four charitable hospitals.

"Maybe I'm wrong and RS is growing and relevant. I do'nt care either way. It's a stupid cult regardless of its size."

Me: never seen a better version of I don't care either way attitude. You do a good job.

"All Gurus in Radha Soami teach you'll be reborn infinite times in hells, as tortured animals, or worse(fear), "

Me: RSSB or RS? I look at it differently. GSD repeated informs us that one will remain stuck in the cycle of 84, and this philosophy is not RS copyright. Many other saints other than Soamiji have preached this too. And chetavni (warning) isn't with intent to instill fear. Maybe people like you want to interpret it this way which can't be helped. A road sign 'Slippery road ahead' is meant to make you aware and be careful. Do you simply abandon your road trip. And even if you are right that the intent is to instill fear, sadly the master's fail miserably because most seem to give a fuck about it.


"Every RS book that is sold, the philosophical foundations of the religion itself says that the man on stage is an avatar of manifest shabd, and that shabd is the power of god. "

Me: Again RSSB or RS? Read on

The true Guru manifests himself
  to those he showers with his grace.

However, as Baba Ji has said so forcefully, the physical body is not the true guru. The physical body, he said, doesn’t have the power to be the true guru. And he said that the true disciple, in fact, is also not the physical body. The true guru is Shabd, and the true disciple ultimately is also Shabd. But knowing this as a teaching is one thing, and knowing it as an experience is something else.

So when Soami Ji says, “Search for a true Guru, my dear friend,” he is talking about a deeper, more profound search.

This is "current" RSSB literature and "current" Master's interpretation of RS founder's utterance. Fits in with his oft repeated "Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela" from the Granth Sahib.

Stuck in the past maybe? When was the last you heard GSD?

Am sure I can dig out more on who is the guru per RSSB but it's pointless. I am not in here to convince you about RSSB. And it's not that you are looking for something to convince you.

The only one with a I don't care either way on this being GSD.

And then there is Pathseekers

https://www.rssb.org/pathseekers.html

Doing showy charity is part of what organizations do as PR strategy. Cults do it all the time, as do mafias.

RSSB probably has some "hospitals" that are bad like the one in Dera with poorly trained "doctors" who don't even have the common sense to ask you if you have allergies to medicines before handing you 5 unnecessary prescriptions without telling you what any of them are.

Having a few small doctor's offices and calling them charitable hospitals wouldn't be much to discuss even if they weren't selling them to Gurinder's private companies. It looks good on a list to have a "charitable hospital."


You are taught to meditate by imagining his face for god's sake. Do any other guides in your life ask this of you? Do Sam Harris's mindfulness podcasts ask that you watch your breath and gaze upon your memory of his face?

Imagining a favorite image can help you shut out the
those sexy or thrilling movie scenes ya watched far too
late into the night though. .

Otherwise, they float up before the mind's eye like a fly
ya can't swat away as you try to concentrate on breath
or repeat that sublime mantra.

SP, why would I be initiated into focusing my attention on Gurinder Singh and not Johnny Carson if all of us are just vessels of the same shabd anyway?

Don't insult me with this thoughtless bullshit, please. You're no saying anything revelatory here.

"Stuck in the past maybe? When was the last you heard GSD?"

It's not my business to interpret their words like you and Osho have done, or to selectively emphasize only the parts that offer an abstract version of guru and shabd and ignore the more numerous examples of the exact opposite being spoken and written.

If the teachings have changed, then the book sales need to stop and the guru needs to either shut down the organization, or step down as guru and completely change the structure of the ashram. All sects would also need to do the same.

As of today, the initiation still teaches that he's the avatar of the source of all life and creation and that we're to picture his face, not your face, not my face, not a faceless god, and focus on it because it is what carries us to god, and actually is god. Gurinder Singh Dhillon's face, shorty boy.

So first it's inot all Gurus and every book.

Then you say,

"It's not my business to interpret their words like you and Osho have done, or to selectively emphasize only the parts that offer an abstract version of guru and shabd and ignore the more numerous examples of the exact opposite being spoken and written."

It's not your business to even comment on RSSB. Or is it? If yes Is it remunerative? Extra easy $ are always welcome if all one has to do is malign another. Do you freelance or in somebody's employment? Details appreciated. You know my God is $.

"If the teachings have changed, then the book sales need to stop and the guru needs to either shut down the organization, or step down as guru and completely change the structure of the ashram. All sects would also need to do the same."

So a few things that I can tell you are

- Whatever deemed fit to be done in this regard is already happening. And I say this with certainty only because I noticed and probed.
- it's certainly not you who decides the extent, pace and what the change should entail
- And the changes aren't because of your criticism.

Also it's upto other sects whether they seem fit to change. Any advice for other cults? They are all waiting.

On the point about why his face and not Brad Pitt or Scarlett Johansson (your or my face is not interesting) or JC or on nothing or on the darkness you experience when you shut your eyes - why don't you ask that narcissistic GSD himself. Am sure you will hear exactly what you want to and spite RSSB even more. LOL. I got an answer some years ago.

Consequences of slips by RSSB and may be the Master, as well has hit the prospects of my wife becoming a colleague in this spiritual school. She got the story of RSSB. financial web from somewhere to say : Amassing wealth by hook or crook is an ordinary character. of human trait and proportion of spirituality is as much low or non existent in a sect or individual with such a mindset.

Hence why would she bow before someone whose credentials in world are not plain white. But yes , she has never believed in GIHF or a Saint because of so many scandals enjoyed in dark by many self proclaimed Gurus in India in last one decade.

The inner experiences or else positives even if forced upon her will be like casting pearls before her logical mind which she will never appreciate despite other's understanding or knowledge of same.

Only God or Master has answers or potential to cover the many-a-slips.

Sp why do you even engage with Jesse? Waste of time. Better focus on doing the work you claim to not be doing. (No offense just a suggestion)

Thank you SP for saying nothing at all. Literally nothing. Over 100 words of indecipherable void.

Radha Soami, from "Soami Ji" and even the bhakti movement that preceded him, is nothing but personality cults. Accept it if you want or continue being a cult member. Nobody cares.

Does it really matter if RSSB is a cult, a religion, an organization, or a spiritual movement? It can be anything.
For me, it has moved away from santmat ideals of wisdom, truth, simple and loving existence, and primary goal of spiritual progress. Certainly, santmat is preached regularly, but not internalized even by management, speakers, sevadars. Hierarchy has become more important than brotherhood. At satsang centers spiritual energy has been replaced by worldly power, prestige, position within the organization,.
Parking lots of RSSB centers in the west are a big display of wealth in the form of luxury vehicles.
As in secular world, wisdom and common sense based on real santmat and humanism are becoming rarer in RSSB.
My 2 cents.

GSDs behaviour changes depending on which followers are in his presence. He could be cold as a killer to some or quirky or charming to others.

I was told by someone that he was playing with Bollywood actor shahid kapoor's hair whilst sitting next to him. (Hilarious thing is this person was envious explaining to me that Shahid is a very lucky soul for GSD to do that. Loooool)

This reminds me of scientology. Where bigger donators are allegedly given more importance. Same with that Sai Baba guy a few years ago where he magically gave fruits to his poor followers and gold gifts to his rich followers.

@ Gurinder . Come and see me when you wish. It's been a long time!

There you go - my invite to GSD.

Hi Jesse
You write
"Having a few small doctor's offices and calling them charitable hospitals wouldn't be much to discuss even if they weren't selling them to Gurinder's private companies. It looks good on a list to have a "charitable hospital."

The 300, 75, 50 and 30 bed hospitals include emergency care and housing for families whose children are receiving pediatric inpatient care and are far more than doctor's offices.

There are legitimate issues with RSSB, so falsely exaggerating as you have done only draws attention to yourself, and not those issues.

My request is not that you stop your criticisms, but only that you fact check first, so that they have the solid weight and withstand scrutiny.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"Imagining a favorite image can help you shut out the
those sexy or thrilling movie scenes ya watched far too
late into the night though. .

" Otherwise, they float up before the mind's eye like a fly
ya can't swat away as you try to concentrate on breath
or repeat that sublime mantra."

Yes this is purpose. To put a face to the subjective experience, one you didn't choose, but which chose you. But it must be natural, not artificial.

The danger of creating a cult of personality is encouraging this as an effort.

And then we see all the problems caused by objectifying God, whom even the Saints teach has no face.

And then there are the superstitions that arise about the Master.

Sant Mat is a beautiful effort to help develop a natural process, but it carries the flaws of the culture it came from, worshiping the King as a diety. And while the Kingdom may do many fine things, all its corruptions are equally defended, blindly.

When you heap praise upon any leader, any public figure, it just becomes idol worship, and that interferes with that subjective connection to the divine within each of us. It becomes a barrier. Because that truth is in every star in the sky, every sunset, every grain of sand. It has no status.

That Sant Mat, directly or indirectly, by culture, by teaching (as in Sar Bachan) defends and embellishes this form of systematic idol worship of the Master, is where Sant Mat, RSSB, Eckankar and the other Shabd mystic teachings veer quite far from the reality of Shabd and the true, natural path. And so they become culture - bound photocopies of truth.

Rather than helping to gain Shabd, this form of imagery creates a barrier. While the minimal concentration it affords will bring you in hearing distance of Shabd, at some point this imaginary focus becomes an obstacle to firmly being engulfed in and rising up within Shabd. The imagery must go. But can you let it go?

The practice of its own fails to deliver.

But the event is a natural one.

Mindfulness must take over at some point. Once the mind is reasonably calm, when Shabd naturally arises, simple, relaxed and attentive observation, looking and listening, quietly, patiently, with full attention, to listen, to look, and simply enjoying the amazing show without trying to process it, is all important. Then that show grows, and you enter into it.

It's the same process for getting to know any beautiful human being. Be still, be gentle. Listen quietly, patiently, look carefully, gently, and let yourself be absorbed in the miracle before you.

The hospital I was inside of on the dera premises was a dirty shack, Spence. I'm sure on paper it all sounds great and the million bed pediatric care facility is saving the world, but the actual place I was in would hardly pass as a hospital in the first world, though it's not for lack of funds or access to medical professionals, since as we all know satsangis would do anything for the bragging rights of seva for the master.

The doctor I saw was incompetent as well, by the way. 2 of them were. One was from Bosnia or something and kept telling me that Americans were barbarians, even though Bosnia wouldnt even exist without America and NATO helping them slaughter innocent Serbs.

RSSB is a cult. That's all that matters. A big, dumb cult. The number of "beds" at the "hospital" is irrelevant.

"Rather than helping to gain Shabd, this form of imagery creates a barrier. While the minimal concentration it affords will bring you in hearing distance of Shabd,"

Funny how an RSSB guy who sees the "inner master" is convinced that there's a "shabd" that one will contact in mindfulness meditation, yet millions of mindfulness practitioners who do it every day report no instances of "shabd" or surfing a sound wave all the way to the highest of heavens.

This is what cults do. They insert goals that you can't escape from. Even thinking there is a such thing as shabd at all is cult terminology. Then saying "your meditation is actually about my cult mysticism, even if you don't know it yet" is the icing on the cult cake.

You're making a great case for the effectiveness of RSSB's mindwash skills. We should add "Spence" as reason 11 for why RSSB is a cult.

I'm an atheist, but I have to say that the 'teachings' of Charan Singh are pretty basic... be nice, don't drink and basically be a nice human being - nothing fancy here! I heard him say in one of the videos that he is just an ordinary man - he asked someone to not see him as anything other than an equal. Can't really see what is cultish about that.

As a side note, I am actually the little girl in the video with Charan Singh from London 1975, standing next to him fiddling with my dress. I remember the event... all put on with amazing childcare (we got bags of snacks and watched movies and did arts and crafts). All paid for by the organisation. Nothing was asked for.

I'm not going to change from being an atheist, but his basic teachings are just basic humanity. I don't believe the reincarnation stuff, but that's fine. If it makes you a nicer person in this life... go for it! :)

"be nice, don't drink and basically be a nice human being"

You forgot his more notable teachings such as "worship Charan Singh, and follow a strict diet even if it kills you" which are pretty damn culty teachings.

Hi,
The 10 point home work is not done holistically.
The 10 points are more of biased observation. Biased by rhe influence of worldly attractions.
While citing the reasons, you had to get inside the role of a sevadar or earn a naam daan.
I found each of the 10 points Bull shit.

Thanks


That Sant Mat, directly or indirectly, by culture, by teaching (as in Sar Bachan) defends and embellishes this form of systematic idol worship of the Master, is where Sant Mat, RSSB, Eckankar and the other Shabd mystic teachings veer quite far from the reality of Shabd and the true, natural path. And so they become culture - bound photocopies of truth.

Mystics revere what's inside. The outer Master is a placeholder who says
gently again and again: "Not this, not here. Turn around and look within.
Don't remain outside and lose this opportunity.

Be still, be gentle. Listen quietly, patiently, look carefully, gently, and let yourself be absorbed in the miracle before you.

A beautiful prayer for mindfulness... at every stage.

@ spencer , I dont think mindfulness helps in seeing the light . You dont use mind to calm the mind down. You have to shut the Fucking thing down- so they say.

I told you long ago that I did not believe you were spiritually advanced because you keep going on.about it. I recall Jim having a go at me too.

Cast not perls before Swine my friend! Who are you or I to try and help anyone when we are blind😁

@jesse why so jaded? What on earth happened to you? I'm a cynical atheist, but you even out-cynical me!

I think the bit about following the diet isn't going to kill you... Unless you don't eat properly, but that could be said about any kind of diet. There are millions of vegetarians around the world for various reasons and I don't hear about them dropping like flies. I've been vegetarian for 49 years and I'm still alive... still thriving. I love animals and don't want to eat them. I did try it for a period, but I just don't like the taste.

As for worshipping Charan Singh, I have not seen anything about that. I have heard him, in his own words, telling people that he is just like them - he is an equal and asking them not to hold him up that high.

I am just wondering if your bitterness is clouding your reasoning a bit, but I am also curious where that bitterness came from. it's obvious that you don't like this particular organisation, but why SO over the top about your hatred for it?

Hi Arjuna and Jesse
There is no harm speaking to one's own experience. That's what all three of us are doing here.

We acknowledge and praise, or criticize and demean all within the context of our experience.

If you two can speak from your experience and perspective, so can anyone else.

So, for example, Jesse, when you relate your actual experience at the Dera Hospital, that's helpful to know.

That's transferable information. Others who have been there can comment on their RSSB hospital experience.

But as you both have had no experience of Shabd, one can't expect much from your opinion on that front.

Many people experience Shabd. Some, just by the minimum effort of reading a book, even having sex. Any form of concentration at all, followed by a moment of introspection to stop and realize the Sound is there.

Many who came to the path did so because they heard the Shabd, and already knew it came from within and was entrancing, and had something to do with focus and concentration, and even power to yank us up and into transcendent experience and incredible places.

My comments can only resonate with them.

But so long as that is a natural condition for some people, there will always be some school to help them develop that experience.

And unfortunately some of those will carry the baggage of the cultures they grew from.

Worship of the Master is culture bound.

But Shabd, and good helpful advanced brothers and sisters, our true teachers, and the bond of love among them, that is not bound by any culture. It's a physical condition and the social development around it by those developing that condition.

Hi Dungeness
You quoted me then commented. Thank you.

".... Let yourself be absorbed in the miracle before you."
That Miracle can be both within and outer.


Here is a very interesting talk in Hindi.
Among other things the speaker also talks about the dangers of Gurudom.

8 deadly ignorance || Ashish Shukla from Deep Knowledge

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FESS_aBEJ1k

"But Shabd...that is not bound by any culture. " Which is why it only exists in Indian literature, and north Indian mystical literature at that.

Thanks for not getting the point, and obviously not addressing it Spence.

This is about mindfulness. Not RSSB bullet points. Your entire post sounds like a RSSB satsang.

"I think the bit about following the diet isn't going to kill you.."

Ms Thing, do you or does any defender of RSSB actually read the literature, i.e. the most important tool of the cult?

Charan Singh said that it is better to die than to eat meat. I'm not saying it, the cult leaders are.

"I have not seen anything about that. I have heard him, in his own words, telling people that he is just like them - he is an equal and asking them not to hold him up that high.

I am just wondering if your bitterness is clouding your reasoning a bit, but I am also curious where that bitterness came from."

You are a ditz. You haven't responded to my reasoning. Once again read RSSB literature, and understand that one of the points is that they publicly say "I am a normal guy." It is required of them to say this, but to also in some way, via written word usually, call themselves gods. Also, the whole part about you not being able to look at them, talk to them in public, or address them by name part sort of makes them not normal people.

And do not try to psychoanalyze people on the internet. You're incapable of reading basic sentences let alone understanding human psychology. You haevn't been able to address my points regarding RSSB which are clear and plain, what makes you think you know the inner workings of my mind?


And Spence, sorry, I thought this was the post about mindfulness. But I was wrong. It's about cults. And you are maybe one of the best examples of an indoctrinated cult member available. You will never stop pushing onto people that since you read about this word "shabd" and read that it exists everywhere, that it must mean it's THE goal, and everyone must experience it.

Nobody who isn't in this cult has ever spontaneously said "shabd" ever. Stop proselytizing and stop saying "my experience" and then talk about others sex lives, others shabd experiences, others everything. It's either your experience, or it's not. And so far, it's not.


@ spence. You have no experience of shave either. So thank you for confirming that you are blind as I am by writing that response. -..

I needed that

@ Spence..

Where there is lust there is no shabd. You just confirmed your poor understanding and direct experience by mentioning sex.

Dont lie about shabd . This is bad , wht is it everyone I listen to initially turns out to be liar or conman.

Jesse and Arjuna
You have every right to claim black is white, to call other people liars (never yourselves) , and to say that there is nothing in this world outside of your limited experience.

Let me help you go the whole way. If experiences outside your own are all false, perhaps only you exist, and this is just your own bad dream.

In which case you must blame yourselves for the weak characters, poor script writing and contrite plot.

Who put you in such a dreary place?

I'd have a talk with them.


" to say that there is nothing in this world outside of your limited experience. "

That never happened, and it's a pretty cool deflection on your part, Spence.

" If experiences outside your own are all false, perhaps only you exist, and this is just your own bad dream. "

Never said experiences outside my own were false, but it's actually possible, but also not the point I was making at all, which you know and are purposefully dodging.

It's that you do this all the time and say "just my personal experience man" when using RSSB propaganda to talk about OTHER PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES. It's like saying "Spence went to France. I'm talking about my personal experience with France." Does that sound retarded? Yes. Just like when you talk about other people banging each other to shabd drums and say it's your experience.

We're talking about cults here. Repeating the exact phrases, beliefs and terminologies of that cult is what cult members do. I did it myself with the same words that you're using. You're trying to sound all wise or whatever, but I'll repeat, you are a poster boy for cult thinking.

Ask the inner master during your mindfulness shabd sex.

Spence, maybe you need to embrace your suppressed anger...

"Mindfulness meditation is a practice different from any other. Instead of using the meditation to reach a state of inner peace (higher consciousness) we are using mindfulness meditation to experience the state we find ourselves in, from moment to moment. Mindfulness meditation teaches us how to be truly present and experience what we may be feeling at that current point in time. Whether that feeling may be happiness, sadness, love, grief, anger, frustration, empowerment, disbelief etc."

Jen, you and I both like the Tao

"Who sums their fellows up at sight
Brings wonder to their eyes.
But they who sum themselves aright
Alone are truly wise.
Tao of Leo Tse
(Charles Macintosh translation)

Jesse, I'll repeat..
I'm only speaking from my own experience.

Rather than accuse me of lying, it would be more honest for you to say "Sorry, I don't believe it."

What moves from honesty to hate is the simple act of projecting onto others what is inside yourself, rather than acknowledge that it is your choice.

What you choose to believe actually has nothing to do with me, Jesse.

Take responsibility for your choices.

You have a world view, it's hilariously exaggerated to the dark side. But it is all Jesse, for better or worse.

"I did it myself with the same words that you're using."

Were you in a cult Jesse?

Hi Arjuna
You write
"Where there is lust there is no shabd. You just confirmed your poor understanding and direct experience by mentioning sex.

" Dont lie about shabd . This is bad , wht is it everyone I listen to initially turns out to be liar or conman."

I'm sorry Arjuna. I can only share my own experience.

Maybe it was Master protecting me. That's what I felt at the time. Shabd pulls you up, so there is no lust.

I realize I'm discussing personal things way outside your experience, Arjuna.

You are right that lust and shabd are moving in opposite directions. And your presumption is understandable. But Shabd is everywhere.

If you are going to have children, give this to Master. And if you are going to fall, give this to Master. He will protect you from yourself. At least this is how I interpreted the experience of sound and the room flooded with sublime light at the time.

@ spencer

"I realize I'm discussing personal things way outside your experience, Arjuna."

That says it all Spence. Well done! Glad the light chose you.

Mind, body and physical universe are drawing energy from atomic energy/shabd. Even sense organs and all the pleasures of universe are also drawing energy from it. It is like saying I will accept the one side of coin and not the other. Answer is in Kabir's teachings, Kal/demiurge wanted kingdom to rule over Souls. It was given to him by creation of physical universe. Souls participated in the process by passive assent when Kal showed them the glimpse of physical universe. But when Souls came in physical universe Kal trapped them in bodies of lust and carnal pleasures making escape near to impossible. You look at this creation from Soul's point of view it is a trap or if you look at it from creator's point of view it is a trap for Souls given as a gift to Kal/demiurge.

Hi Spence,

Sorry if I've been judgmental. Sometimes I wonder why I have these knee jerk reactions to someone's opinion, because after all its just an opinion and we are all on different wavelengths.

This nutty quote made me laugh...

"My mind is like my internet browser.
I have 19 tabs open, 3 are frozen,
And I have no idea
where the music is coming from"

"Were you in a cult Jesse?"

Yes, Thing. I was a member of RSSB.


Spence you say and "I'm only speaking from my own experience. " "I can only share my own experience. "

If that's the case you'd say "I HEARD shabd" or more accurately, "I had an experience of sound, and I'm using sectarian language to describe it". Not "shabd is this, that, and the other thing, and other people have this that and the other experience with it."

By using the language of the cult, and expanding that language to other people's experiences, as well as going so far as to describe the metaphysical properties of that supposed shabd substance in the sects language, and to even prescribe it to others, you're not talking about your personal experiences. Why do I have to explain this?

Again, this is what cults do. They give you a framework from which you speak from. When I accuse you of dishonesty, it's because you're saying something dishonest. If I said "Spence hears sound in meditation, and sound created the lights that created the world. The world was created by this sound. This is my personal experience" I'd expect to be called out on it because it's bullshit. No different when you do it.

RSSB destroys brains like all other cults. My mother needed a medical procedure once, and I knew of a satsangi who worked in that profession, but I didn't ask him because I'd had a conversation with him after I'd left RSSB that was so irrational (on his part, not mine. I'm fucking brilliant lol) that I couldn't trust him.

Basically, he was a man who could make his way through medical school, yet couldn't be honest enough to admit that native americans didn't practice some form of surat shabd yoga as far as anyone knows, and was visibly angry and belligerent because I challenged him on that dumb idea. He should not be a doctor, tbh, but that's the low standards of dishonest intellect we accept nowadays as being suitable to protect lives and prescribe meds.


I have 19 tabs open, 3 are frozen,
And I have no idea
where the music is coming from"


It's that frozen CofC tab. Strife has brought it to a standstill
but its music lives on with its eerie echos of the Great Sound
within you.

"The 10 point home work is not done holistically.The 10 points are more of biased observation. Biased by rhe influence of worldly attractions.While citing the reasons, you had to get inside the role of a sevadar or earn a naam daan.I found each of the 10 points Bull shit"

You cannot be more wrong. The 10 points and 11onwards are all pearls of wisdom coming from 'failed Satsangis'

Hi Jesse
All my observations are only based on my own experiences.
So that means when I write, for example, 'Shabd can be experienced by simple concentration and in that state of concentrating, simple observation of what you are experiencing' , that is just shorthand for what I experience many, many times.

Right now, if I stop.... And just be... For a few seconds... There is Shabd, the sound. And it is an act of will to turn back to my work.

So my shorthand is to make a principle of something that is part of my daily experience, like the sun and the stars, very reliable.

Where I experience something like a specific event, I just say, " I experienced once... "

Or something like that.

I didn't come to the path seeking a spiritual teacher. I was raised in So. Cal. The breeding ground for the most corrupt of the corrupt fake Gurus were in full flourish in the sixties. My family was very critical of my taking initiation.

But because of my experiences with the Sound and the Light, described so perfectly in Sar Bachan and the other Sant Mat texts, but described by no one else I knew of, it made sense that this was my next step.

That it was a path of love, and the teachings were all about kindness and the atmosphere of love, I stayed with it.

However , the cult of personality, the caste system around members of the organization, all were turn offs and kept me focused on my own practice. To me, both Maharaji and Baba Ji were always around, generally protecting me from my own significant personal limitations. And so I was thankful. And when Baba Ji intervened on behalf of my son, at that point my loyalty was unshakable.

But now, to see the fraud, well, it makes no sense for anyone who enjoys Shabd to take even a nickel, because it adds ripples to the mind that get in the way of Shabd practice.

Yet it happened, and at the highest levels.

So how is it that the practice of peace and love, the development of peace and love within ourselves can find itself in an organization where senior leaders have their hands in financial fraud?

The responses of the loyal Satsangis here is the evidence. The defense of indefensible behavior.

So now I live in two worlds. The inner reality and the outer. They both exist. My 'Mindfulness' practice is to honor the reality of both.

But long before Sant Mat existed, Shabd and the inner regions existed. Why? Because for me to experience them, they must be built into the human body and brain.

And that, to me, is more important than the real shortcomings of people with power. Both are realities to be respected, but the inner reality is to me sacred.

The notion of Mindfulness makes perfect sense. When we put aside our designs and desires, Shabd and light, and the inner journey that magic carpet flies us through, is the reality that emerges. All on its own.

At least in my experience.

So maybe Mindfulness is the real path to whatever is in us afterall, once you strip the cultural coverings away.

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"That says it all Spence. Well done! Glad the light chose you."

Yah, I get the sarcasm. But no, the light didn't choose me anymore than sunlight chooses someone. It shines on all of us. Sunlight doesn't have a personality. It gives and gives to all alike.

Arjuna, what if this is just a condition of my brain?

And obviously a condition that some are born with?

I like the idea that some where down in history some folks found a way to monitize their condition by inventing a whole theology around it. But if it meant shaming others, making others feel lesser, and obligated, chained by guilt to an organization, one that engaged in corrupt behavior, then that was actually an act of violence, and worthy of hatred..

but beyond that it's just superstition. Don't let that interfere with accepting the glory of your own reality.

Thank you SP for saying nothing at all. Literally nothing. Over 100 words of indecipherable void.

Posted by: Jesse | September 19, 2019 at 11:10 AM

Why Jesse is it this?

Is it

1) Because you don't have answers to questions in plain simple English asked of you in the following.
It's not your business to even comment on RSSB. Or is it? If yes Is it remunerative? Extra easy $ are always welcome if all one has to do is malign another. Do you freelance or in somebody's employment? Details appreciated. You know my God is $.

Or
2) you can't digest that he seems aware of changes occurring maybe books are being changed

Or

3) are you scared to ask that narcissistic GSD for you know that SP is right about the answer you would get from him.

Your attempted deflections are not lost on many in here.

And don't bore me with the I don't care thingy. RSSB consumes you every second of your life!!!

Ever think of getting into rehab to rid yourself of this RSSB addiction? If not, you should.

"It's not your business to even comment on RSSB. Or is it?"

I was a member of RSSB for 10 years. Went to Chatarpur twice, Dera once. Asked "Baba Ji" questions at Dera. I have as much business as anyone else to question the cult.

It's not 2005 anymore, by the way. Nobody does the "you're being paid!" accusations except people who think Donald Trump is paid by Putin, and many of them are actually paid or are just comments from bot farms. The average internet user can't distinguish between a bot and a human in many cases. I usually can, but I'm sure I've communicated with bots unknowingly before.

"maybe books are being changed "

I think it's confirmed that not only are the new books changing in substance, but they've edited parts of the old books to sound better too. Why are you talking about this?

" are you scared to ask that narcissistic GSD for you know that SP is right about the answer you would get from him."

I talked to GSD and left the Dera the same day because I was totally displeased with his answer. So, no, I'm not scared at all to talk to him.

"RSSB consumes you every second of your life!!!"

No it doesn't!!! You have no idea how much content I consume online in a day(time i waste), and how many people I communicate with. Almost none of my internet footprint would lead to RS related topics. This is just a little pit stop.

Go become a richshaw wallah, Vijay.

Spence said above, "One charitable hospital in Mohali was sold to Fortis Healthcare. Another new 200 bed RSSB charitable hospital being built was transferred to Fortis Healthcare also."

(Posted by: Spence Tepper | September 18, 2019 at 06:22 PM)

My simple question is: Why? or should we not indulge in such legitimate questions?

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