Open Thread 24 (free speech for comments)

Here's a new Open Thread.

I appreciate that off-topic comments have been going in a previous Open Thread. As noted before, it's good to have comments in a regular blog post related to its subject, and it's also good to have a place where anything goes in regard to sharing ideas, feelings, experiences, and such. That place is an Open Thread.

Leave a comment on this post about anything you want to talk about. Remember that I'm moderating comments, so it could take a while for your comment to be published. Almost every comment submitted to an Open Thread will be approved. Personal attacks devoid of substantive content are an exception.

Though I haven't been doing too well on this, I'll try to remember to always have an Open Thread showing in the Recent Posts section in the right sidebar. If one isn't showing, I've added an Open Threads category in, naturally, the Categories section. You can always find an Open Thread that way.

So if you're a believer in some form of religion, mysticism, or spirituality, this is where you can put your "praise God," "praise Guru," or "praise _______" comments.

Comments

[7 - ❤️💜❤️]

Unexpected good from thr Pope

https://www.standardmedia.co.ke/health/article/2001341639/ministry-to-evaluate-church-claims-over-vaccine

Vaccination are BAD actually because of the chemicals providing LONG profit making expiration dates like AL & formaldehide <<.

Pasteur didn't do that
Therefore the dead & autistic toll to pay is 60 higher than150 tears ago

7. ❤️💜❤️
My idea is to force companies to manufacture
short expiration periods

[Jesse]

Osho, I do my own security in "The Khand House" and meditators aren't allowed.

From what I can tell, meditation of the so-called sant mat variety creates egos too large to even fit into heaven. And I want my home to be chill. No brawling or "seva" of any kind.

I hear a lot of ""the" "mystics" say" stuff around here, but when I think about it, I can't even remember any non-modern mystic really talking about meditation much. And this is especially true of the sorts of mystics from where RS has borrowed it's theology and cosmology. It's always a sort of convenient extrapolation from "sing and play music" that becomes "sit and focus your attention in the middle of your forehead endlessly and listen to the sounds created by your heart and blood vessels until you imagine it to be magical music from heaven."

If baba gurinder were the real deal he wouldn't tell anyone to burn the books. He'd commit sati and burn himself out of this world. Or at least go the route of Eddy Gordo and trip balls on LSD in the desert until he stops being such a fake persona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5C6WMLxvdw

[SP]

Impressions on the Mind (from the Spiritual Links)

In the glossary of Sultan Bahu karma is defined as follows:

Action; the law of action and reaction; the fruit or result of past thoughts, words and deeds; also new actions. Karmas are not only isolated acts beginning and ending in themselves, but form a stream of causation, each one being at once an effect and a cause. This stream leads to an unending cycle of births and deaths.

The law of karma is integral to the mind. Consequently the effects of karma are felt in all the regions of the creation where mind rules and is dominant. We generally equate this powerful force with the biblical law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”, but this exacting principle is not necessarily a spiritual law; rather it was used to explain the law of retribution, where a person who had injured another person could be similarly injured in return.

Karma is not simply retaliation and retribution. It is more subtle and far-reaching than physical compensation alone, for it must also satisfy our sanskaras − the more binding aspects of our interactions. This is why Maharaj Charan Singh tells us that it is not the things themselves, but the reaction they produce on us that really matters. It is this reaction that creates the far-reaching and undetectable effects of karma that bind us to the creation and its inhabitants.

Sanskaras are the impressions or imprints left on the mind by experiences in previous lives. These impressions are accumulated and carried forward from life to life, and they determine the identity and quality of this life. When we look through a lens, everything we see is conditioned by the quality and function of the lens. Similarly, our sanskaras are the impressions that shape our current life; they are the lens through which we view the world around us, because they determine our nature, responses and states of mind. Everything we do or perceive is conditioned by these impressions. Simplistically put, two people will give very different accounts of what happened when witnessing the same event, because their individual sanskaras cause them to interpret aspects of the event in different ways.

Our actions and reactions, even our thinking and desires are constantly being conditioned and manipulated by our sanskaras, so that we react in a particular manner, or in a given situation we expect a certain result. It is such a subtle part of our thought process that we are not even aware of this mental conditioning.

Maharaj Charan Singh explains that sanskaras are tendencies resulting from past karmas.

Every experience and perception in life starts with a thought. Our thoughts, conditioned by our sanskaras, have a very powerful effect on us. Continually thinking in a particular way causes a deep groove in the mind, which we know as a habit. When we constantly mull over events, we embed the impression of those events into our minds.

The one-sided mental conversations we repeat ad nauseam are merely fabrications of our imagination, as are the imagined actions we repeat over and over to ourselves. The mental grooves formed by these fabrications leave new imprints on the subconscious mind.

This is clearly explained by Maharaj Charan Singh when he says:

The subconscious mind consists of whatever memory we have in this life – all our impressions that we have collected in this span of life. … It is not about past lives. But the mind is carrying all the past karmas, all the sinchit karmas.
Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. I

However, with right thinking, the correct use of simran and adopting the right lifestyle, we can and should clear many of these current impressions in this life.

These impressions and sanskaras are so subtle that we are unaware of them. We tend to view karma in terms of the physical aspects of our lives, such as our relationships, homes, careers and environment − the world we perceive through our five senses. We can relate to, emotionalize about, and feel these physical aspects of our existence, and we imagine that due to the strength of some of these associations, we are able to determine some kind of karmic pattern. But at this level we cannot know the outcome of past relationships, or the factors which may determine the seeds for future lives − if any! Karma is not simply our physical attractions and the literal explanation of the concept of ‘an eye for an eye’.

Maharaj Charan Singh clearly explains that it is the lasting and deeply engrained impressions on the mind that are far more binding. He tells us:

Individual karmas do not determine our future. It is the accumulated effect of those karmas that we have to go through. Not in the same way and not in the same kind. For example, if you have killed a thousand chickens in one life, you do not have to come back a thousand times to be killed by them. In one life, you can have a thousand pricks, painful pricks. And that will account for the killing of those chickens. So it can be cleared in many ways.
Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. I

By focusing on the physical, tangible side of karma, we often forget that our thoughts and desires are as binding as the physical aspects of our lives. The real far-reaching effects of karma are the impressions that lie beyond our physical interactions, as explained by Maharaj Charan Singh:

Sanskaras are deep impressions on the mind; karmas are actual actions that we have done. The desires we create in our mind − our wishes − they create deep impressions on our mind, and then actually they become karma for the next birth.
Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. I

We need to be far more conscious of our thinking because this habit, this deep groove of repetitive thinking, becomes the basis of our desires, and our desires create our suffering. We are familiar with this because it is something we experience in this life. We may not know the original seed that sprouted the desire, but we are certainly aware of the effect − whether it is joy or suffering − that results from it. Maharaj Charan Singh writes:

All these desires are nothing but strong thoughts. These strong desires − even if no action follows − they are all grooves on our mind. And those grooves pull us back.
Spiritual Perspectives, Vol. I

The mind is not looking only for satisfaction. It is very effectively performing its duty of making us act according to the impressions and tendencies created for this life. In this respect it is truly a faithful servant, dissipating all its energies outwardly. It doesn’t think about its own source unless the impression is there, and that is the purpose of our simran and our meditation – to create the spiritual impressions that pull the mind inward. The Master gives us the opportunity, but it is up to us whether we use it or not. In Mysticism, The Spiritual Path, the author, in his definition of kriyaman karma, clearly indicates that we have this choice:

This is that action which a person performs by his free will. When it is left to him to determine what he will do, and what course of action he will adopt, when it is within his control to decide one way or another, then it is known as Kriyaman karma.

This means that within the scope of our limited free will, we can choose to either sow impressions of spirituality or to continue sowing worldly impressions. An understanding of the subtle aspects of karma should make us conscious of this and of the incredible gift the Master gives us when he initiates us and gives us our simran.

When done correctly, simran nullifies our worldly thinking. It eases out the deep grooves already created on the mind by not reinforcing them, and they lose their effect. Simran also changes what we think about. By turning our thinking toward spirituality, we think less about the world and our desires, thus creating fewer worldly impressions that would need to be satisfied. The Masters tell us that the effects of these impressions can be cleared by our meditation. The power of simran is that it changes our desires by changing our thought processes. To explain how simran cleans our thoughts, Baba Ji uses the example of red ink dropped into a glass of water: if we keep adding clean water to the glass the water will eventually become clear.

It’s up to us whether we do simran during the day or not. If we forget to do our simran, we cannot blame the Master. After all it is we who create the binding impressions. It is our choice. It would be to our advantage to follow the Master’s advice and use our simran to change the impressions we embed in the mind. Simran directs us to spirituality, and these spiritual impressions lead us to the Master.

Volume 10 · Issue 4

https://www.rssb.org/2014-04-07.html

[777 ❤️]

@Jesse

Shockingly U may have uttered some truth
by saying meditations might enforce egos

The making of films during ( what is ) contemplation might do that

However real meditation is when No Thoughts are present

That can only be achieved while in Love
Any 13 yrs old will admit
even Brian would say he had some love

777. ❤️
keep the vertebrae straight UP

[777. with ❤️]

Someone earlier had posted a message about the world having burned, had not there been sants/saints in the world.

Again, I don't know what to think.
As I look around our oceans are rising and full of pollution. Earth is sinking and laden with toxins, Amazon is burning. Countless species are disappearing at exponential rate. Yet there is no shortage of sants today.
As the saying goes, "turnover any brick in India, you can find a sant."

Maybe a review of job description or continuing education is needed???
Posted by: Di | September 03, 2019 at 05:34 PM

me:
The Job it : take some jeevas with Love
and affect all that is hindering this

Just after predicting by HIS Grace , the CA earth quake Richter_pricisely and 2 hours before it happened
I stated that HE prevented the moron pushing the red button
having effect without the codes
which had effectively pleased Kal but was just somewhat tomuch
on/in this prison planet
It would have affected HIS diciples and HIS Plans !

Aparently there are few disciples in the amazon rain forests

777

Don't forget that all misery is created by the victim(s) him/herself
( Life is Fair )
and given (even by Kal) in the most benign way generating effect
of regret about the harm that was done

That is the Law everywhere, always
So, when the Almighty showers His Grace on behalf of a certain disciple
the others might feel some of the Grace too

Expecting a lot of cold showers , . . . earth is giantly suitable to
learn compassion

[manjit]

Jesse wrote: " Or at least go the route of Eddy Gordo and trip balls on LSD in the desert until he stops being such a fake persona.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5C6WMLxvdw"

Hahaha, most excellent!

Hundreds of satsangis and ex-satsangis, centuries of accumulated "meditation", hundreds of thousands of words of pseudo-spiritual dogmas & concepts parrot-written (probably in this thread alone! :) on this blog.

And, finally, something genuinely spiritual & authentic is presented. And it is posted by Jesse. Oh my. Oh dear.

Okay folks, now back to your fawning, oohing and ahhing, clamouring over cassette tape recordings of childish REM dream states stumbled into accidentally after decades of the dreary meditation practice of RS, as if they are unique, special states which prove something about the theology and dogma of RS, rather than the most basic and superficial level of "inner experiences" possible, and damning of how profoundly ineffectual the practice is for such basic, simplistic & plainly "mayaic" experiences to be held in such high esteem.......

I mean, Jeezus, here is an experience somebody had on their FIRST (or perhaps second) attempt at lucid dreaming, so about 10 mins of "practice". Imagine if this EXACT same experience happened to a RSSB satsangi after 30 years of meditating 3 hours a day? One can only wonder if there would be a movie to accompany the cassette tapes and books which would no doubt be in huge demand from the sangat?:

"I realised I was dreaming......I rose through black sky that blended
to indigo, to deep purple, to lavender, to white, then to very bright
light. All the time I was being lifted there was the most beautiful
music I have ever heard. It seemed like voices rather than
instruments. There are no words to describe the JOY I felt........It
was a long, slow slide back to wakefulness with the music echoing in
my ears. The euphoria lasted several days; the memory, forever."
A reader's account after basic experimenting with lucid dreaming found in Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge

[Jesse]

Has anyone been watching this interview that David Lane has been putting on youtube in like 10 different parts over the past week or so?

If you had any belief in anything radha soami related, those videos should kill the remaining belief.

David seems to approach all this stuff from a very gullible vantage point where everyone should be taken at their word. In one of his writings he mentions how these gurus may not have all the magical powers ascribed to them, but nevertheless they soar above us all in their super consciousness or whatever he called it. All I see is people saying they saw something supernatural with no further evidence provided, and a bunch of old Indian men talking about nothing and using honorifics in great excess. Then David accepts their stories and pays great attention as if he's never met Indians before and isn't aware that they all have a friend with a cousin who has an aunt who saw a ghost once, and that the friend now claims to have seen the ghost too. Substitute ghost with whatever supernatural item you like.

There's nothing to see here. Religion is vapid.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
Appreciate your posting the lengthy excerpt from Spiritual Links encouraging meditation, and explaining that Karmas are not directly actions but the impressions (sanskaras) they, and thoughts, make on the mind, both conscious and unconscious. The sinchit is the accumulated impressions, the Sanskaras, on the mind. And all Karma is of the mind.

I believe earlier you wrote that you didn't believe this, that Karmas were actions, and you had felt my claim that they were impressions on the mind was a novel interpretation which you had not seen in the Sant Mat literature. So I referred you to Spiritual Perspectives, including Maharaji's quote which you have also cited above.

A thought occurred to me that you had claimed earlier that you don't meditate.

Can you help explain the posting of this passage encouraging meditation and your own decision not to meditate?

[Jesse]

One of the saddest things to experience is to read these comments by Osho who is still under the impression that these "spiritual" "masters" have something to say that isn't on the surface, and that if only people were prepared to truly understand and realize the truth that he has realized, then they would finally understand!

It literally makes me depressed, as in I physically respond in a negative way to this level of self deceit being expressed publicly and without shame or any kind of obvious mental illness that would maybe prevent one from not understanding how absurd their beliefs are. I cringe less seeing a fat naked drunk puking in the road than when I read this sad stuff about how much radha soami gurus have to teach.

It's 1000 times easier to understand a normal satsangi because there's a theology there and a framework of beliefs for them to get lost in. But Osho, you truly believe in the gurus, and not the teachings. You're like an idolator but there's not even a mystery in your idols. They're shysters. At least a stone doesn't straight up lie to your face. Reading the comments about how Gurnder is your friend reminds me of the crowds who'd form outside John Gottis court trials and scream how they loved him. They'd tell the media how he was such a good guy, and he was just like them. He even gave to charity!

I hope you one day realize that you've realized nothing, and that you're just taking part in Punjabiyat and nothing more. That's all it is. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not spiritual realization of oneness or anything else at all. It's shared beliefs and interests. It's a culture. And the man and old book worship part of it sucks ass.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"I hope you one day realize that you've realized nothing, and that you're just taking part in Punjabiyat and nothing more. That's all it is. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not spiritual realization of oneness or anything else at all."

Difficult to say. Osho definitely experienced something. Same with David and his wife. And Brian Ji. And 777, and Manjit, and Mediator, and even Georgy, and even Jesse.

But how people articulate their personal experience is another matter. Personal experiences are subjective. Something objective is there. Something fuels the mind, and the mind tries to make something of it. We either accept the fuzzy nature of it and in a career of meditation or spiritual or scientific pursuit try to get closer to it, so that our picture is more objective, better defined. Or we make a career of rejecting that internal experience / awakening / understanding as a hallucination. Finding some connection to a philosophy or a religion we may seek to find legitimacy and even to express it.

There is a theme here that seems to me somewhat consistent in those promoting spirituality, the Master, RSSB or any spiritual organization, and those who roundly criticize these as false. And that is the very human need to find justifications for one's personal experience.

I like the idea that we can't read each other's minds, can't project our interpretation on someone else's experience with any actual evidence, since we can't get into their heads and experience what they experience.

That's my experience. People doing that with the result they justify cruelty, oppression, sweat shops, slavery, and even gas chambers.

It's wrong. But I understand why people can't help doing it.

Or maybe I don't. I can't get into someone else's experience. That's theirs.

[Spence Tepper]

But, Jesse,.....
I suspect what keeps us here, is the nagging facts of both inner and outer experience within each of us, and our effort to resolve one by denying the other. That's endless.

My position is that there is truth to both, and our ability to reconcile these only has hope in allowing for the apparent contradictions, accepting both as legitimate in ways we may not yet understand, but knowing we don't have the full story.

To be a student is really to integrate through learning, what is inside of us.

[Spence Tepper]

... And that is a simple plan. To accept our own views as reflecting our own nature and where we are today, legitimate for today, but as incomplete.

And understanding at least our own next step in our own development to more fully realize who we are... Whether that is of a spiritual nature, a scientific nature, an intellectual nature, a worldly nature of action, or a poetic nature of gentle expression, a nature that builds with concrete blocks, another that builds castles with the mind, even an imaginative nature. These all have legitimacy. They have survived evolution, honed by it. They reflect different personality and mental types.

If Darwin is right, each has its place and purpose, each developed over so many millennia.

[777 ❤️.]

--google:

777 piet site:http://hinessight.blogs.com

777 vivaldi site:http://hinessight.blogs.com

About meditation ( stop the inner dialogue )

Why you think 48 years ago
I wrote a recommended letter to Charan
Stating “Now I have You, I don’t need God anymore”

777. ❤️
….. and HE is still with both of us

-

[Jesse]

Spence, try to go 5 minutes without dropping holocaust propaganda into your posts sometime. There were real tragedies in WW2, lots of people died, and none of them in "gas chambers." And Darwin, too. No need to talk about Darwin or Einstein ever. From now on use Tesla and Arabs being slaughtered by your guys in Israel when you want to drop tragedies into sentences for no reason.

People here have no problem saying "this master can get you to sach khand/onenes" but that master can't. This spiritual method is good to assist in "realization" but that one isn't. I'm realized, he's not realized.

I'm saying it's all lying. Not only is nobody here or anywhere realized in the ways described (and if they are it's observably of no use to them in any way at all) but they also have no ability to discern between the strengths and weaknesses of others paths.

And the reason I don't buy their ability to discern is because they prove they can't discern between anything else. Finer perception sort of implies that one would even better understand the grosser things. But the arrogant spiritualist doesn't have this ability. The big mouth realized ones almost always know the nature of the absolute and all the details of human consciousness, but can't tell if someone is angry or sad or if they're gonna get beat up or anything else. Not knowing anything, they lean on the crutch of the "realization" proclamation.

The 100% disabled kid still finds some who are convinced that he'll find his special talent one day, even as he sits in a wheel chair drooling onto his shirt, unable to speak, unable to eat, and unable to control his bodily movements. Humoring all of the realization mumbo jumbo is akin to saying "maybe the kid who can't even hear me right now will grow up to be a poet some day." It's nothing but coping and hoping and wishing that others would cope and hope with you.

[um]

Spence, one can do what one wants, the possibilities are endless and for that very reason, one can only know what one has done … nothing more.

There is no self to know.

The crow, whatever he does in life, dies as he was born, a crow.
He doesn´t get to know nothing about being a crow by acting as a crow.

I don´t inderstand why anybody, needs to know about souls, gods etce .

To drink my coffee all that so called knowledge is useless and whatever knowledge one acquires it is all `fake knowledge` to speak with Trump … based on HEAR-SAY of the few people in history that "hear voices".

If there is something divine it is a witness of his own creation, like mystics are just witnesses of their own experience and himans of their senses, thoughts etc.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse you wrote
"Spence, try to go 5 minutes without dropping holocaust propaganda into your posts sometime.."

I'm sorry I can't do that. Most of my relatives were killed in the camps.

The few that survived came here before the war. It's part of my socialization.

What is to you casualty dismissed as propaganda was the tragedy that resulted from another campaign of propagandal to dismiss the right to live of other human beings. Which I was reminded of throughout childhood, and why very few places on earth hold for me the hope of finding the tree of my family's history beyond grandparents. It's gone.

Your willingness to make statements about others spirituality from long distance is as poorly evidenced as theirs for an afterlife.

Your right to swing your club ends where my nose begins.

But it's never stopped you. You are the counterbalance to religious fanaticism, but it is just a different fanaticism.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"I don´t inderstand why anybody, needs to know about souls, gods etce .

To drink my coffee all that so called knowledge is useless and whatever knowledge one acquires it is all `fake knowledge` to speak with Trump … based on HEAR-SAY of the few people in history that "hear voices".

Yes, until you have experiences that defy explanation. Then it is natural to try to understand that, and language becomes a means.

But that language is always culture bound.

Where people get into trouble is explaining rather than exploring. Tomorrow the context will be different.

Exploring is my passion.

[Um]

Spence, Ofcourse, …… if one has an experience one has to deal with it,
like everybody that has,

nightmares,
lucid dreams,
voices in the head,
sounds in the head,
dreams,
NDE,
thoughts in geberal
etc etc etc.

But to make others, even the whole world, part of ones personal experiences, experiences that cannot be shared by others, is what it is all about.

The spread the word of mystic experiences, that develop into religions is the issue at hand.

Whole generations and millions of people trapped in believes, the which the have no understanding where they came from, binding them by fear to those in power.

[Jesse]

" I was reminded of throughout childhood"

The word is indoctrinated.

Typhus killed a lot of people thanks to the allied forces bombing supply routes and murdering German civilians for your benefit.

But back to the point. You know NOTHING about spirituality. Just like everyone else here. You are coping and the only ones who don't recognize the dishonesty in it all are those who also need supernatural teddy bears and baby blankets to hold onto.

[Arjuna]

Spence.

It's all subjective. The mind creates a lot of illusions. Forget the fairies at the bottom of your garden and learn to see where you are. A crappy rock hurtling through space.

I have seen conflict it hardens you to see people as they really are. I am now out of that arena and more lost than ever. But I ain't chasing a man who people think is God.

People should keep their subjective crap to them selves and yes I believe you have experiences - it's all your own mind.

Sorry but I agree with Jesse's in his last post. Chill man and try some fine wine and a cigar. You need it most after reading your posts.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse,
You wrote
"You know NOTHING about spirituality. Just like everyone else here. You are coping and the only ones who don't recognize the dishonesty in it all are those who also need supernatural teddy bears and baby blankets to hold onto."

Imagine, as a thought experiment, that you are really saying this to yourself, but in this form of accusation of the "other" person, you are able to get the words out to someone tangible, when the real "other" , Jesse, you are speaking to with absolute certainty, but maybe a little anxiety that you might be wrong, is that hidden, annoying subconscious mind, vague and subjective, that you wish would go away, but isn't going away. And which, by his invisibility, refuses to listen and never answers directly.

The very boldness of your words to someone you don't know about something you haven't experienced, is your own accuser.

But that's OK. We all have to reconcile with him or her in some way.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You wrote
"But to make others, even the whole world, part of ones personal experiences, experiences that cannot be shared by others, is what it is all about."

Everyone can and should share their experiences. What makes religion wrong is that it tries to create a caste system of levels when all these inner regions are within everyone.

Not everyone is born to be a soccer player. We each have our conditioning, genetics and biology. But many people, perhaps most, can play in their own backyard, or at the local park, even in a wheel chair.

These are part of the human experience. They are real in so far as they are part of the perceptual experience of some.

Once you put aside that caste system, then it's just an experience, a condition, a practice.

And then we can get down to discussing it, like playing tennis, so that those who would like to get better at it can get support for their own journey, however their journey takes them.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna
You wrote
"It's all subjective. The mind creates a lot of illusions. Forget the fairies at the bottom of your garden and learn to see where you are. A crappy rock hurtling through space."

The crappy rock world, where demons battle warriors, and the garden where unicorns sip at ponds where fairies swim and play is the same world. One is as real as the other.

You pick the one you wish to live in.

Or work to build one suited to your tastes.

[Um]

Spence, among the many things I was taught and still remember was .. it will supprise you ..
"Don't go out of your way to help people or change the world, but if somebody asks you for help, do help."

Politicians, idealists, reformers and the like who believe that things and people can be changed for the better, have been the cause of almost all misery that is recorded in history books.

If "better" is not forced on people, the suggestion makes them miserable.

[Jesse]

Keep cope proselytizing Spence. Won't help you a bit to feign confidence.

The difference between you and I is that I passed beyond your position long ago.

[Jen]

This seems to be such a strange world and I can understand how people like to have some kind of faith and something to believe in but the actual facts of life on this planet are very unsettling.
....................

I never thought I'd see the Australian rainforest burning. What will it take for us to wake up to the climate crisis?

Right now there are about 80 fires in Queensland and a further 60 blazes raging through New South Wales.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/10/i-never-thought-id-see-the-australian-rainforest-burning-what-will-it-take-for-us-to-wake-up-to-the-climate-crisis

[Jesse]

3 things that don't resolve your predicament or spare you from the probable hell fire we'll all experience thanks to the eternal oneness of the creators unified sadism.

1. Artfulness and beauty
2. Logic
3. Humility, especially the pretensious kind

Considering that we can't figure out the basics of earthly phenomenon, what makes any of us think we can even begin to discuss what is beyond all this?

Have you ever heard of someone so stupid they couldn't figure out addition but manages to learn trigonometry simply by osmosis from a few poems?

[Jesse]

"What will it take for us to wake up to the climate crisis?"

We have 2 options, Jen. We go back in time and undo the industrial revolution and also somehow make it impossible to happen in the future. And we'll have to also learn to manage the entire universe in such a way that the natural climatic cycles of the earth cease and none of the extreme climates that are not man made ever come back.

No more ice ages. No more continental drift. No solar flares. It'll be tough. But we'll do it with mantras.

The other thing we can do is embrace all the things we are blaming for creating the idea of climate ie technology, and use it to send celebrities to distant planets where they'll create utopias out of the technology they claim is killing everything. If they can outrun time and move to new galaxies every time they destroy a planet or a Sun burns out, they could keep us all alive for bazillions of years!

[Jen]

Hi Jesse,

You say "We go back in time and undo the industrial revolution and also somehow make it impossible to happen in the future."

Well, you are talking to the right person. I am a time traveller. Not really interested in saving this planet though. Celebrities have lots of money but not sure whether they have the power. Being kept alive for bazillions of years sounds horrifying. I've already looked into the future and its horrible, gotta reincarnate on a better planet somewhere ;)

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Um
You write
"If "better" is not forced on people, the suggestion makes them miserable."

Everything is changing, evolving, Um. Nothing stays the same.

" He who isn't busy being born is busy dying."
Bob Dylan

It's already happening. We are changing with or without our awareness and consent. But we can make a conscious choice and effort to choose the direction, to some extent. We may have to take very small steps, but we can take that next one.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"The difference between you and I is that I passed beyond your position long ago."

It's not a competition, Jesse. It's not a race.

My position is in a different space. Not on a linear track. We don't live in a linear, one dimensional line. We live in a universe.

We exist in at least three dimensions simultaneously, four including time, and more including consciousness. So terms like 'beyond' or 'behind' are not applicable.

In the dimension of time we occupy the same spot. You and I are neither ahead nor behind each other. Indeed outside of time you and I are not in a specific spot at all, but are each a universe of thoughts and ideas and experiences loosely connected if at all. In the full reality of this creation we actually overlap and share much of the same space. What is beyond or behind is relative to which part of the creation your mind occupies. And which aspect of you or I one is considering.

Try to view things from a larger perspective.

The higher you go, the closer together we appear. Until we are just two grains of sand on a very large beach.

[Georgy Porgy]

The holocaust happened, no propaganda to it. The systematic and planned genocide of 6 million ppl for no reason other than their ethnic background - its abhorrence cannot be denied or downplayed in any way. There will never be any defense for its outright wickedness and the untold misery it caused. If 6 million English or American citizens (including women and children) had been executed in such a manner , I suspect no one would be speaking German today - it would’ve been razed from the map along with most of its inhabitants.

[Dungeness]

... try to go 5 minutes without dropping holocaust propaganda into your posts sometime. There were real tragedies in WW2, lots of people died, and none of them in "gas chambers."

This statement is beneath contempt.

P.S.
I believe revisionist tripe like this is illegal in Germany. It should be
here as well.

[manjit]

Jesse wrote: "The 100% disabled kid still finds some who are convinced that he'll find his special talent one day....."

This really was an exceptionally cowardly, ignorant and abhorrent comment to make to anyone, but most especially to somebody who has so beautifully, touchingly & vulnerably shared their experiences with their own disabled child on this blog. Even for you Jesse, even for you. Have a word with yourself mate.

Moving past that typically Jesse-style cheap & lazy comment, I think there is an important issue raised here in these plainly grounded-in-ignorance comments.

Arjuna wrote in support of Jesse's comments: "It's all subjective. The mind creates a lot of illusions.........People should keep their subjective crap to them selves...........it's all your own mind......Chill man and try some fine wine and a cigar."

Yes, it's "all in the mind". Everything, absolutely everything, is "all in the mind". Yes!

Fear, insecurity, inferiority complexes, the view that creation & existence is meaningless, sexual frustrations, the causes of "toxic masculinity", the urge to violence, insatiable greed, jealousy, the urge to take mind-numbing and body-destroying intoxicants like alcohol, depression, nihilism, hate, anger, the belief there is no "God", the belief that "I" exist etc etc etc.

ALL "just" in the mind, folks, nothing to see here!!

The point is, in some people's mind, and hence reflected in their entire reality within and without, IS fear, insecurity, nihilism, a sense of meaninglessness etc So overwhelming are the illusions of "just" the mind, that these people even begin to think that these "subjective" mental fabrications ARE an accurate and objective evaluation of reality itself!!! Such is the power of the mind. Who can escape it's snares?

Likewise, in that disabled child's mind, and those of their loved ones, there may be an intense appreciation for life, love for family, deep joy & happiness in the smallest things, living in & appreciating each moment. Perhaps, just perhaps, they have an ever deeper capacity to appreciate Love than most human beings, who's egos are girded by the mental illusions of wealth and health. I hope even the most cynical & materialist of us here at least have an inkling that the currency of Love is priceless. Which could make that disabled child the richest person on earth, at least in their "own mind".

When somebody like Jesse judges this existence, it is only in his own mind that judgement holds any "reality". The reality in the "mind" of the disabled child may be a heaven, whilst Jesse's "mind" (as he has self-admitted) may be a hell. Remember, it's "all just in the mind", folks!

In regards the nature of "mystical" or "spiritual" experiences, it is clear that the comments like those of Jesse or Arjuna are REALLY saying is "I haven't had this experience, I do not understand, and because I do not understand on any level, I doubt, pour scorn, dismiss" etc. This is fair enough, this is natural. The mind is a funny old thing and can create the most strange intellectual loops of circular thought. And, the ego mind always seeks to assert it's own reality. It knows nothing else, it literally IS it's own reality. Yes, "it's all just in the mind".

I, for ONE, am eternally grateful, in perpetual respect and reverence, for all those who came before me and shared their experiences, their life stories, their practices, their thoughts and interpretations of those experiences. I bow at their feet, all the way back to Buddha and beyond. The universe made it so these people would share their experiences, perhaps even create corrupted and cruel religious systems around their teachings, control systems for the masses. But those who are meant to separate the wheat from the chaff do so, they see reflected in the esoteric teachings and descriptions their own experiences, as well as signposts and pointers to evolve those experiences. We do not live in a vacuum, and we do not reinvent the wheel every time we go for a drive. We stand on the shoulders of giants in many ways.

Due to the many hundreds if not thousands of people who have shared their own experiences and findings, it has helped me reach my own "heaven", surely "just in the mind", no doubt (let's skip the almost perpetual paranormal experiences which demonstrate an "objective" connection between mind and the universe "out there", surely beyond the scope of this discussion). I bow at the feet of all these guides.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about Pakhand Babas, those who've probably never had any significant mystical life or experiences that we know of, are considered "mystics" merely because they're born in such and such a family, those who have never shared any personal experiences either from the "inner" or from their early life and seekings, those pakhand babas that are talking about lofty ideals of purity on one side of their mouth whilst commiting fraud on obscene scales, have cronies making death threats to people etc. This is not mysticism.

It is sad that many here seem to think either pakhand babas must be real, or the whole "mystical experience" thing must be bollocks.

Very sad indeed.

[Meditator]

Do our present day lives need God or Spirituality after all.

Perhaps No ( by most). Especially those who tread lives on logics and are strong willed.

Its only in worst times or sudden loss or due to fear of elimination of our identity through death of body ( always due to some reason but surely) that one compulsively believes in God to take care prospectively. None of us whether an atheist or a believer is an exception to this.

What next. Think over and over...

That each . one of us is in unforeseen trouble, GIHFs,.included

But GIHF who is/ are available now are not only clear on this but may have already ascended past death and wish us to walk into their footsteps through trust in them and meditation.

Should we believe them.

We have no other fair place or shoulder
to hang on to to escape...

We are absolutely helpless now therefore and must take concrete steps to avert which is already due.

Unfortunately some of us have to trust One ,(present RSSB Master ) whose worldly profile seems tainted and some may have replaced trusts.

[💜]

The difference between you and I is that I passed beyond your position long ago. --- Posted by: Jesse | September 14, 2019 at 03:09 PM

Wouldn't "you and me" be better ?
💜

[SP]

Hello Meditator,

Tragedies, strife, human suffering but only then the true remembrance of HIM by mankind.

And

Many a times its in bad times that belief in God or one's Master crumbles .

Incomprehensible are many of HIS ways

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Manjit.

[Jesse]

Yes Dungeness. We should ban free speech because people are sad and weak. Cambodians suffered 1000 times worse in the Khmer Rouge killing fields but didn't make 500 movies to show in grade school, so we can only question the numbers and methods Pol Pot etc. I agree. You're really really smart and I respect your thoughtful opinion, Dungeness.

And Manjit, you elderly chap, you scholar, I never judged any person with a disability. I judge liars like you who use them as a shield and liars who mock their situation by pretending like their condition doesn't exist. You're the one with no morals. Not me. I never once have felt the need to quote from the news to ascertain right from wrong.

There are still head hunter tribes on earth today. Hopefully all of you here who like to cry in public to prove how you're aligned with television morality find yourself in that sort of paradigm where reciting from the news earns nothing.

"Toxic masculinity." I hope hell us real and those who use that word end up there. We need more Guru Gobind Singh, less Nanak.

Continue with the mystical jabbering now, people. Back to pretending you are on a path to finding truth.

[Georgy Porgy]

I got no problem with fair speech. If someone wants to advocate a controversial or ignorant view, fine with me. Doesn’t mean that view is right or worth a bucket of horsemanure, and I will say so, but I got no problem with it being put forward.

What boggles my mind tho is why holocaust deniers and sparrow entanglers can have their say on this here forum, but I’m banned. Makes no sense.

[anami]

Jesse--
How about the moon landings and heliocentrism? Are they a lie too, because you haven't been to space and seen firsthand? Were you in Cambodia to witness the killing fields? So why BELIEVE the Khmer Rouge systematically killed 3 million of its own countrymen on ideological grounds but NOT believe the Nazis systematically killed 6 million Jews plus 5 million non-Jews also on ideological grounds? Why believe tens of millions more civilians and soldiers died in WW2? Why believe WW2 happened at all? Answer: books, newspapers, film, archives, interviews. In short, the media! Now it's one thing to argue media bias or to condemn Israel on violence against Palestinians (contradicting yourself all the while by celebrating the clash of cultures in theory and ridiculing peaceniks as stupid hippies!) but quite another to deny reality in favor of naked, racist, antisemitic tropes.

[Jesse]

Anami, the Khmer Rouge evidence is massive piles of skulls. The holocaust evidence is piles of shoes and holy wood movies. As for the moon, it's weird that NASA claims to have "forgotten" the technology, but I have no opinion. I'm sure when it's illegal to investigate the world will be a paradise.

I'm not saying people weren't killed by the way. I'm in agreement with the likes of David Cole and Norman Finkelstein who your antisemitic ass along with the antisemite Dungeness want to be silenced for investigating history. But you don't and won't get it because you're stupid. Don't talk at me anymore. I hate stupid people.

And Georgy, you're obviously not banned since here you are posting here right now. I don't care if I'm kicked off any forum at all, especially for speaking against stupid hoaxes.

6 million people precisely died every few years according to the media (link below). It didn't start in the 1940s. Super convenient and funny how millions have died in the middle east at the behest of these supposed holocaust victim champions of human rights and nobody dare try to stop it. The same cowards like you all saying we can't investigate history are also saying we can't say Jews are killing millions of Arabs via proxy wars and bribed sanctions.

Long Live Modi. Long Live Nasarallah. Long Live Al Assad. Long Live Putin.

https://youtu.be/Qpa-3IuAJwc

[Um]

Anami,

Things are what they are
but seldom what they look like,
let alone how they are portrayed.

The way we came to learn about WWII in Europe, and our colonial history, in school and through the media, if we would live under a totalitarian regime, could certainly be characterized as "party propaganda".

There is much more to the last war then the bare facts.

Which facts are shown and stressed, which not and for what reason.

[Georgy Porgy]

There is no ‘interpretation’ around the holocaust. It happened, end of. Same as the moon landings.

People have devoted their entire lives to research it. It’s one of the most heavily documented events in history. There are certain events which are just evil and genocide of a civilian group is about as bad as it gets. Investigate whatever you want - it’s been investigated to death already. There is nothing at all you can contribute to this area.

Any other viewpoint on this issue is either from a conspiracy theorist or an anti Semite - both of which have highly questionable links to reality anyway.

For someone who seems to pride himself on his intelligence and grasp of reality - what a completely stupid position to take. Frankly I’m amazed.

[Arjuna]

@ jesse hello

I would ignore Georgy Porgy. I would like to meet this individual.

All the best

[Jesse]

Yes, Um, and that same line of thinking applies to literally everything. Far beyond foggy ideas about history and into the "hard sciences" there are beliefs being created that we accept without knowing the motives behind the research being done.

It seems nobody here has ever done a search for terms such as "fake peer review" to see how far the rabbit hole goes. There was a lot of sensational news over the past few years about how much absurd "science" was being passed on as legit, but the implications of what it means has yet to settle in to the public's mind. Everyone's too busy looking for emotional comfort instead of ceasing to believe in things.

Everyone here should read Herman andChomsky's Manufacturing Consent. Then stop pretending you have morals.

[Georgy Porgy]

Yep, I’ve read about 3 or 4 of Chomsky’s books, but there’s only so much one can learn from academics. Thanks for the suggestion but I’m way past that stage.

Peer review is primarily used in the context of scientific papers. You don’t need peer review for the holocaust - what do you think the gas chambers and ovens were for? A rodent infection or maybe a bbq amongst SS chums. Gdamnit - and this is meant to be the American intelligentsia. Gd help us all.

Then you got big baby Arjuna who needs a cuddle or a slap to set him straight, not sure which one is better for him at this point in time.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse
You wrote
"Everyone here should read Herman andChomsky's Manufacturing Consent."

The problem is that each must choose carefully what to believe. And everyone can manufacture information to support their own beliefs. Your standard leads you to consistently accept information that supports racism, antisemitism, and prejudice against those who have significant neurological impairment. And to ignore the testimony of thousands of eye - witnesses, and even the fact that those with disabilities are still human beings. Your choices reflect your character, Jesse.

The deaths in the camps from typhus resulted from taking millions from their homes and placing them in the camps. Those deaths would never have happened had Hitler not enslaved the Jews. But he enslaved his entire country, with their consent.

The poverty in the camps is the poverty of Germany funding a war effort in midst of poverty veven while their business investments went belly up after the 1929 stock market crash.

Hitler made a huge deal about the Treaty of Versailles war reparations debts after WWI, but the facts are that Germany wasn't paying that bill at all. And no European country complained. Churchill wrote that no one expected payment. It was a political statement. And Germany wasn't paying.

What they were doing in the 1920's was what the rest of the world was doing. They took leveraged loans investing heavily in the New York stock exchange, and the crash is what threw Germany into an even deeper poverty than the devastation of WWI.

But Hitler responded by building a huge and expensive war machine, taking the whole country, not just Jews, out of productive work.

Hitler chose racism and hatred, rather than humility and hard work. He may have killed millions of people (the total figure is 25 million for WWII) but he started by disabling his own economy, in part by responding to the crash by blaming Jews and limiting Jewish business; moving the remaining workforce to weapons and roads; and then, taking Jews from their homes, taking all their property, and throwing them into concentration camps. He took millions of people from the work force, put them into prison, and with that the obligation to feed, clothe and shelter them at a time when Germany could I'll afford it. Hence they had no blankets or heat in the dead of winter, no healthcare, and millions died of starvation and disease. Had he left them in their homes, in the workforce, they would have had their coats and blankets, their homes.

The gas chambers were Hitler's solution to the problem of housing, feeding and clothing the Jews after having stolen their existing homes, clothes and livelihoods, along with their civil and human rights, and inevitably, their lives.

I've spoken directly with eye - witnesses. Including Christian German soldiers, and even Christian German farmers supplying food to the camps. They have their witness of the smoke from the stacks burning day and night all the dead bodies; of trains rolling in with thousands week after week. The ovens burning night after night, and no one coming out.

I did my homework Jesse. Churchill saw the German war machine growing. He tried to use economic sanctions to head off war, but this only exacerbated the problem and encouraged crazy Hitler.
All anyone had to do is read Hitler's speeches to see his hatred and bigotry. He brought economic ruin to his country. Hatred, invasion, war, are not answers.

It's OK. We start where we are. But rather than defend a fixed position, why not take an open minded approach to learning and growing your view.

Brian Ji's minimum condition for holding a perspective as Truth has always been that it can be tested and proven wrong. That requires a willingness to investigate and gather information for yourself, and then to verify it.

Please do a little more research, with an open mind. Of course of you choose to dismiss the evidence of thousands of eye witnesses, then you can dismiss any hard evidence for anything. And your next stop b should be man in the mirror.

But if there is hope for you, it is the same hope for any of us. The hope of learning and understanding.

You should get to know more mentally disabled folks. Perhaps volunteer at a day program or an independent living program. Some of these people have very noble characters. And then you can see for yourself.

What you fail to see is how obvious it is that you are yourself manufacturing the case.

[Um]

Jesse, there are some videos on YOUTUBE with that title and I will see if I can digest its content.

In the past, Chomky's analytical linguistic books were beyond my intellectual capacity, part due to his English

[Meditator]

Mr SP,
Hi and Good Morning.

In bad times the belief gets shattered only when prayers are not answered.
And it is. counselled that the bad debts will have to be paid back in this life itself for. better prospects later.

Left in the middle we may break completely to forget our dream-home in Sachkhand.

But our attitude to Life may not be be all and end all from a Saint's perspective in deciding about our post-life journey.

He may remain well in control of us always.

[Jesse]

"Your standard leads you to consistently accept information that supports racism, antisemitism, and prejudice against those who have significant neurological impairment. "

Spence you started with lies and complete misunderstanding of my views. Not reading the rest of your long diatribe.

I've no prejudices. I've observations and am open to looking at facts that make you uncomfortable. There is a huge difference.

And I've already told you multiple times that my Dad is Jewish according to the Halakha.We also lost everyone in our family too, but not to Nazis, but your ideological allies who happened to share a certain ethnicity and past religion with us.

Sorry to go over your head, but my view of the world is one that considers long sequences of consequence and potential reactions, not simple mechanical morality. "Thing A is bad because bad thing history book!" Spare me. I'd be a victim of any pogroms you'd incite with your thoughtless supremacy mixed with nagging victimhood complex. It doesn't have the effect you desire. It has the opposite effect of stirring up hate. Look around you.

Watch this video. It is an anarcho primitivist or something in Brian's neck of the woods talking about how bad pedophilia is, and who some of pedophilias ideological pushers are and have been historically, the anarchist community. They're super popular these days. A number of people in the crowd are screaming words about how immoral he is to talk about it because stopping pedophilia means he's racist or a homophobe or whatever slogan we're supposed to be yelling. Good stuff. You could learn from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3hmZCsXoE

[Jesse]

Um, the Chomsky book I'm talking about isn't one of his linguistic works, none of which I've read anyway because only English matters. Manufacturing Consent is about the USA creating war and support for war via propaganda. Not really tough to read.

You could also just go watch the incubator baby video and understand how dumb people are and how they're fed morals instead of thinking. But Manjit and Spence (both moral gods and geniuses) will call you a conspiracy theorist if you doubt that the daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat who wasn't even near the war saw babies being killed in a hospital 5000 miles away.

The gross woman at Democracy Now! talks about it. She's the worst. Worst than war. I'm guessing her scene doesn't like this incubator baby thing because they think all other war propaganda was real, and this one fake instance messes it up for the rest of the totally just wars that were based on totally real stuff. The white helmets in Iraq and Syria totally didn't kill children either and stage fake rescues for the media, by the way. Hong Kong is organically uprising too. Just believe man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkRylMGLPMU

[Georgy Porgy]

There are a handful of events that are simply so evil that to ascribe any kind of ‘interpretation’ to them is either gross ignorance or racist.

If Jesse is Jewish I can only assume it’s the former - what a stupid statement and then to try rely on a left wing Jewish intellectual like Chomsky is really the epitome of stoopid. You should be ashamed, end of.

It’s really only complete and utter nutjobs who seek to deny the holocaust.
The amazing thing about Chomsky is that he actually supported the right of free speech of a French holocaust denier. Chomsky believes that free speech should be allowed regardless of how offensive or even whether it’s true or not.

In fact, it’s probably only the Jewish tradition that would remotely allow this kind of free-speech to occur or to have accepted what was done to them. If that had been done to 6 millions Anglo-saxon civilians - I suspect Germany would have been bombed out of all existence.

[SP]

Sorry to butt in. Why do you guys keep pusing the witness to the background? Bring it to the fore and view the the events being debated here as they are : NEUTRAL - neither good or bad.

Sahi kahaa na Maine Oshoji.

I LOOOVE ALL then be it

Genghis Khan
Adolf Hitler
Enver Pasha
Fu Sheng
Leopold II etc etc

After all isn't it said in a scripture

Awal Allah noor upaya (In the beginning God created light)
Kudrat ke sab bandey (All are nature's creations/people)
Ek noor se sab jag upja (From that One Light the whole world has been born)
Kaun bhaley,kau mandey? (So how can some be good and some evil?)

😀😉

[SP]

"In bad times the belief gets shattered only when prayers are not answered.
And it is. counselled that the bad debts will have to be paid back in this life itself for. better prospects later.

Left in the middle we may break completely to forget our dream-home in Sachkhand.

But our attitude to Life may not be be all and end all from a Saint's perspective in deciding about our post-life journey.

He may remain well in control of us always."

Hi Meditator,

Per me belief is shattered because our belief is shallow.

The oft repeated If HE has the power to give, HE has the power to know (what's best) too, is just a notion to us; not imbibed. Prayers are not always answered. They usually aren't answered. Just a coincidence maybe, this morning when I was reading your post, in the background was running a satsang(discourse) - topic 'prathana'(prayer) and there was a section therein why prayers are not always answered.

Pay off bad debts in this life; better prospects latter. Don't be too sure about this. The 3 or 4 lives max. to get to sachkhand ..... don't get increasingly better. Infact a worsening of circumstances is what you might experience. Remember what you said "Its only in worst times that one compulsively believes in God". Just replace 'believes in' with 'remembers'.

You also say he may remain in control...... Are you unsure that you use "may'?

[Jesse]

Dungeness I'm mindful replying to you on this thread in an attempt to respect Brian's request of keeping comments on topic.

"How do you know what discipline and mindfulness are capable of?"

Thank you for asking. I'm enlightened. I don't know things. I realize them.

"We're under siege by the mind"

Under siege sounds bad. Who told you consciousness as-is is bad? I don't think I'm "under siege." I think I'm somewhat sentient and have no choice but to be mindful at all times. We're always watching our own thoughts because that's all that exists.

"What's "laughably absurd" and defeatist is
the suggestion that some threats are so dire and overwhelming that
that you can't prevail and nothing will help."

Overcoming all is part of "Things sheltered white suburban people believe are possible."

I don't even believe in the possibility of mindfulness to be honest. It's imaginination and basic self observations being described in more sophisticated ways for the purposes of book sales. We live in a market and meditation buzzwords create lucrative businesses.

You're always mindful to the absolute degree just without the part where you tell yourself "I'm being mindful right now by being aware of awareness." The only other option is to be mindless but that requires risking your life.

Count the contradictions in my post. Remain mindful of my enlightenment as you absorb yourself in the sacred words I utter.

[Mike England]

Who attested I was rested while arrested for being unint’rested.

Resisting being inneresting in nothing or Onething.

The bales of scales flails despite my wails about whales in Wales.

A biff in the boff for the toff who scoffed at the repeater scone eater that ate all the scones outside the theatre.

The moral of the story in it’s immoral glory is quite gory deffo not hunky dory.

I will pen another to my sister brother for all the lover o word play but not today I say I’m off to the bay of Lay

[Dungeness]

I think I'm somewhat sentient and have no choice but to be mindful at all times. We're always watching our own thoughts because that's all that exists.

Then why can't you remember what ya walked into a room to get?
Or if you turned off the stove before getting on the plane? Or what
the dude/dudette's name was ya just met? Oops, that's just bad
memory right...

But what thoughts were running through yer damned head when
ya stuck yer pinkie into a fire. Betcha can't remember... but I'll give
ya credit. Ya likely licked it, cursed, and yelped "Ya dumb shit,
can't ya be mindful for 5 seconds!?" At least ya were "sentient".

Stop risking life and limb, even tiny ones. Ya need 'em for that fully
sentient life. Otherwise, ya flirt with becoming mindless and totally
forgetting those sacred words of enlightenment ya give to acolytes.

[Spence Tepper]

All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. Which then takes them off the 'good people' .

It takes a little work to be good, but more excuses not to be.

[Meditator]

Mr SP,
You are absolutely right in your vision of ideal Santmat. But what transpires in us is what I stated in good and bad times by and large. Its good if you could be steadfast despite hopeless odds strangulating...

Concerning His ( Master's) control over His marked souls my use of ' may' should not be taken as skepticism or suspicion on His ability but my limited capacity to fly not too far inside. that prevents me to exclaim in awe :

Yes we all are in Safe hands for-ever and ever!

[SP]

"It takes a little work to be good, but more excuses not to be."

Spence,

Yet in this world it's easier to be evil than be good. Why so?

Late here so signing off with this one.

[Jesse]

"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing"

POWERFUL adage. Why even think about anything anymore? We got the answer right there in "good things are good things."

Have you done my 2d world experiment yet? You don't know if your world is 3d yet you're concerned with enforcing morality on others.

[Tim Rimmer]

Interesting exchange of views, some pretty strong confrontational ones from Jesse. I believe Spencer is gracious in response and at the same time speaking of his own experience relating with those who were there during WW2. Obviously most of us here were not. What I will say is that it’s always interesting getting info from the ‘other-side’ (e.g. former German soldiers and Germans whose parents were there). There’s some truth to the saying ‘History is written by the Victors’ imo.

Also another informative and re-focusing response from Manjit. It is great that there are some really cool things raised by some really interesting people. Thanks again Brian.
Indeed, ‘even the most cynical & materialist of us here at least have an inkling that the currency of Love is priceless’. Gotta agree with you, well said Manjit, as also when you acknowledge those mystics/teachers/experiencers who have gone before.
Further, you write ‘… experiences which demonstrate an "objective" connection between mind and the universe "out there”,

There’s gotta be ‘somethin init’ :-)

I read this the other night [in regard to Meister Eckhart’s take on non-duality, he is quoted]:
‘Here God’s ground is my ground, and my ground is God’s ground …’ (Roy 2017, p.81)

Got me thinking about a saying (from the Upanishads or B.Gita?) I picked up on a card at some event nearly 40 years ago and it’s just as meaningful to me today:
‘He who sees me everywhere and sees everything in me, never gets separated from me, nor do I get separated from him’ (that’s how I remember it).

And from Osho’s reference to the Ashtavakra Gita a while back:

“You are pure Consciousness -
the substance of the universe
The universe exists within you.
Don’t be small-minded”, (1.16).

P.S. - good so see a comment from Jim Sutherland the other day.

Best wishes

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You write
"Then why can't you remember what ya walked into a room to get?
Or if you turned off the stove before getting on the plane? Or what
the dude/dudette's name was ya just met? Oops, that's just bad
memory right..."

Actually, wouldn't remembering those things take you out of the present?

If your mind is only on the present, could you recall anything?

" Rick, Rick I want to be with you! "

" Sorry sweetheart I'm busy right now. "

" Can we meet tonight? "

" I don't plan that far in advance."
Cssablanca

[Spence Tepper]

Rick lives in the moment...

The actual quote, from Casablanca :

"Yvonne: Where were you last night?
Rick Blaine: That's so long ago, I don't remember.
Yvonne: Will I see you tonight?
Rick Blaine: I never make plans that far ahead."

[777 & 💜 💜 💜 and ❤️]

@all & Arjuna about "it's all in the mind"

@oshjo

I believe that
the sevadar, slapping u in yr face
was Gurinder,
Certainly the man who said "It's ALL Mine"

A case of poly-positioning while HE was arranging his Turban 100 meters further on, WOW,

Same as what happened to S* 's sister waiting until HE came out of the bathroom
which did not happen
while HE was giving Darshan elsewhere already

This makes all the talks sense-less here
you could equally discuss all indian snake-faqirs!

Didn't you know what 💜 DZJenghis & Nero did?
Wouldn't a holodeck be a reasonal treatment to learn about Compassion?

777. 💜.💜.💜. and.💜

[Dungeness]

"Then why can't you remember what ya walked into a room to get?
Or if you turned off the stove before getting on the plane? Or what
the dude/dudette's name was ya just met? Oops, that's just bad
memory right..."

--Actually, wouldn't remembering those things take you out of the present?

Not according to Ishwar Puri if you've attained "totality of consciousness" :)
The past, present, and future are an open book and it takes no time to flip
back a few pages (or read ahead a few) while remaining completely
present in the "now".

--If your mind is only on the present, could you recall anything?

I don't think so unless perhaps you don't use the mind but rather
the power of direct perception. On second thought, it beats me.
Please confirm with a friend inside.

P.S. I love your Casablanca quote.

Rick Blaine: I never make plans that far ahead.

"You know how you sound, Mr. Blaine? Like a man who's trying to
convince himself of something he doesn't believe in his heart.

[Jen]

"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing. It takes a little work to be good, but more excuses not to be."

Sounds very religious. Preachy. Trying to change the world and it will never happen.

I like what Brian is talking about (effortless mindfulness) being alert and practising awareness of self. Watching thoughts, feelings, just being the observer of self without criticism makes one feel very calm and at peace. Worrying about the violence and evil in the world has the opposite effect. Can't change anyone else but yourself.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness

To be in the present here is be here, not anywhere else. Not in the library, not in someone else's thoughts. Not thousands of miles above. Not all at once.

You can't enjoy walking and reading your cell phone work email. You can't be on vacation doing your taxes. Yes you can do those things but it's not living with a single purpose.

To be gloriously limited by absent mindedness because this brain can only focus on a few things, but to have chosen the right things!

Every good method actor becomes their role. When Daniel Day-Lewis played Christy Brown in My Left Foot he remained in that state by choice full time. He could not have stood up and walked on both legs had he wanted to except by an act of sheer will to end the performance. Because had he done so he would not have honored Christy Brown. And he wanted to be Christy Brown more than anything. It was the end of each of his performances, not the limitations and demands of the performance, that took the greatest toll on him personally, that were his greatest periods of depression.

To remain in character became his natural state for the duration of the part. And a great effort to do otherwise.

Every character, every life is tragically limited. To escape that can only be when you are off duty. In meditation. The more aware you are of the limitations of your life, and the One who wrote that part just for you, the more you honor every foolish lapse, every line. You are happy not to know. So you honor those words that are yours to speak, even the foolish ones. They were sewn into your body by a sacred tailor. And if you are in love with the tailor, you love the costume.

To do otherwise doesn't honor the play or the one who wrote it. In theory it can be done.if you have greater knowledge and freedom, yes, you can do anything. But when that knowledge is of a loving consciousness surrounding you, inside you, inside every cell and star beam, then communion with that consciousness becomes all you are interested in.

To do otherwise assumes you are acting on your own. But if you love the Father you just don't go there. You don't take your powerful internet - connected cell phone with you when you attend Satsang. And every waking hour is the Satsang of the Lord. And then when you are there, having honored the script God wrote, then yes, you can read the whole play. He wants you to. You are having a love affair with God. So intimate, so filled with passion. The actress in love with the director. She doesn't want to change a word.

Ishwar may have over - simplified things. Or that really is his experience. He is a sadh guru, Dungeness, and worthy of respect. He will teach you concepts. Living them is a different matter. Because we don't live alone.

[Dungeness]

To be in the present here is be here, not anywhere else. Not in the library, not in someone else's thoughts. Not thousands of miles above. Not all at once."

I think this may be semantic. You musta been referring to that mention of not
being "present" when you enter a room and forget what you came to get.
Loosely, we talk of being "present" when we don't lose track of the "immediate
past" so quickly. Mindfulness anchors us more fully in the "present" and mitigates
to some extent that kind of forgetfulness.

[OMG. ❤️ - 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈]

OMG. - 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈. - OMG
This is much better than the Regions
to be slapped by God Himself in Poly-positioning

Osho:
I was still considering my response to this when Sevadar #1 punched me in the face.
“Fuuuucckkkkiinnngggggg Helllllll” I said , as a reaction to the sudden unprovoked attack.

OMG. - 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈. - OMG

[Georgy Porgy]

Yep 777, I too think it’s a divine blessing planted right on the hooter.

[❤️]

🙏

[🙏. 777]

Let me be the first friend to expose the Sign pinned on your back, that says,...KICK ME HARD, PLEASE,. Here, I have removed it from your back, and handed it to you. Now, you may choose to keep it off and blend in, or put it back and stay marked as the ONE Trouble Maker.
Cheers,
Jim Sutherland
Posted by: Jim Sutherland | September 17, 2019 at 03:16 AM

NOW. Osho, . . imagine you could believe what I said above for a quarter of an hour

How is yr feel compared to yr nights of singing at Kirpals
and your "ride on until you can no more . . . Everybody tells me nothing
( Youtube : The Old town Road )

Just do 🙏 man . . the whole day & night . . it answsers everything

777

[Dungeness]

Hitler made a huge deal about the Treaty of Versailles war reparations debts after WWI, but the facts are that Germany wasn't paying that bill at all. .... And Germany wasn't paying.

One correction to "wasn't paying at all". Germany paid slowly but was saddled
with huge internal war debts and a shattered economy. The occupation of the
Ruhr and reparations exacerbated the disastrous downturn. By 1921 banks began
printing currency to pay down debt leading to massive hyperinflation. Wages were
paid twice a day so employees could buy bread during lunch before the price
spiked hugely by day's end.

Hitler and others' exploitation of reparations doesn't change the havoc of the
Kaiser's war and its aftermath on the German people.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness

You wrote
"One correction to "wasn't paying at all". Germany paid slowly but was saddled
with huge internal war debts and a shattered economy. "

Germany didn't pay the debts. They took loans to make their payments, but diverted most of these into their economy. They never actually paid with their own money, nor did they have to. International lenders were happy to do this as an investment, until they could no longer do it after the stock market crash.

"The Treaty of Versailles (signed in 1919) and the 1921 London Schedule of Payments required Germany to pay 132 billion gold marks.....

" Between 1919 and 1932, Germany paid less than 21 billion marks in reparations....

"With the collapse of the German economy in 1931, reparations were suspended for a year and in 1932 during the Lausanne Conference they were cancelled altogether."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations

Winston Churchill wrote that what little was paid was from international loans, not from Germany's economy. Germany was actually using the international loans money to bolster its economy, after the destruction of WWI.

But after the stock market crash of 1929, international lenders called for repayment, and the flow of money coming into Germany stopped. But by 1932 even the loans were forgiven.

The 'huge international war debts' you write of were never paid with German money.

[Dungeness]

Germany didn't pay the debts. They took loans to make their payments, but diverted most of these into their economy. They never actually paid with their own money, nor did they have to. International lenders were happy to do this as an investment, until they could no longer do it after the stock market crash.

The same strategy any devastated nation would use to
rebuild its economy and recover sufficiently to pay debts.
Lending nations and trading partners wanted the same
thing. It can take decades for a nation to heal financially
from a war.

But after the stock market crash of 1929, international lenders called for repayment, and the flow of money coming into Germany stopped.

The international depression clearly impacted Germany
significantly too .

But by 1932 even the loans were forgiven.
The 'huge international war debts' you write of were never paid with German money

No, that's not true. There were moratoriums and partial loan
forgiveness but the debt didn't disappear. Under the terms of
the 1953 settlement agreement, Germany finally paid off the
loan amount in full on Oct 3, 2010.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"No, that's not true. There were moratoriums and partial loan
forgiveness but the debt didn't disappear. Under the terms of
the 1953 settlement agreement, Germany finally paid off the
loan amount in full on Oct 3, 2010."

It appears this may be some other debt, Dungeness.

From Wikipedia we read that, as I'd written, the Versailles treaty war reparations debts were entirely canceled in 1932.

"Despite this, by 1928 Germany called for a new payment plan, resulting in the Young Plan that established the German reparation requirements at 112 billion marks (US$26.3 billion) and created a schedule of payments that would see Germany complete payments by 1988. With the collapse of the German economy in 1931, reparations were suspended for a year and in 1932 during the Lausanne Conference they were cancelled altogether. "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations

Can you please provide a link to support your statement that they were not canceled?

[Spence Tepper]

I think I met have been referring to the post WWII debt

"The U.S. was basically the last man standing after the war and essentially decided to cut Germany's debt in half," Guinnane said. "It was a hard-nosed decision ..... it's wrong to say it was an act of generosity."

"But the US persuaded its European allies, including Greece, to relinquish debt repayments and reparations in order to build a stable and prosperous Western Europe that could contain the threat from Soviet Russia."

https://www.france24.com/en/20150129-london-agreement-1953-debt-write-germany-economic-miracle-greece-austerity

Most of Europe after WWII was rebuilt via investments from the Marshall plan, including Germany.

But as to my original point, the war reparations debt from the Treaty of Versailles was never an actual burden to Germany as what little payments were made were from loans. The war reparations debts contributed zero burden to their post WWI economic collapse.

[Spence Tepper]

Oops. Typo..should read.
"I think you may have been referring to the post WWII debt."

[Spence Tepper]

"But if “labour saving” means that the wage-earning masses are, with the aid of machinery, to make the same amount of things for something like the same wage in a shorter time, and have more leisure, then indeed will machinery and invention be a gift and a blessing to mankind.

"Upon these vast and vital topics we know, at least roughly, President Roosevelt’s views. But there is another question, comparatively petty, perhaps, in the estimation of Americans, but of considerable importance to us, and in many ways ugly and irritating—the question of war debts. I have always believed that they lie at the root of our troubles.

"The attempt of the victorious Allies to obtain enormous payments from Germany was bound to fail. No people can establish a large permanent lien on the future production of another. Not less injurious and crazy was the effort to liquidate these vast obligations through the agency of the poor little stocks of world gold.

"Debts can only be paid across frontiers in goods or services, and if these cannot be received without injury to native industry, they are frankly irrecoverable. We have seen the exchanges of the world disorganized, and gold disqualified as a standard of measurement by the endeavour to use this scarce yellow metal to discharge the gigantic obligations so airily chalked up by credit.

"One thing is clear: No European country is going to pay any war indemnities or war debts except England, and the question is: “How much will England pay?”

" It is idle for the United States or Great Britain to expect the slightest repayment from Germany. Since the War Germany has borrowed to the utmost of her capacity without apparent intention of repaying either on public or private account. The present regime in that country would glory in the fact that, though Germany lost the War, at any rate, she got £500,000,000 on the balance out of England and America as compensation for her losses.

"If Germany does not pay, France and Italy will not pay what they owe either to Great Britain or to the United States. Thus it all comes back to England."

Winston Churchill, 1933

https://winstonchurchill.org/publications/finest-hour/finest-hour-153/the-truth-about-war-debts/

[777]

If GSD can be hardline (For a loving God) so can we!
Posted by: Arjuna | September 18, 2019 at 09:30 AM

@arjuna
You just do predict the next CA Earthquake please ?
Don't forget 'How Much' on the Richter Scale

777

[Arjuna]

@ 777. Hello.

I can not predict anything as I am human and not a supernatural being if they exist.

The reason I said that I am seeking love not hardline rules. I am a seeker after truth. I doubt I will find it but as I have been through a lot in my life . Hope goes my friend.

I used to pray to GSD but nothing good came out of it. Whilst satsanghis - a few I knew where coming bad deeds and sometimes adultury were having the times of their lives.

It's all a joke and I ain't impressed anymore

[Dungeness]

Can you please provide a link to support your statement that they were not canceled?

The reparations were cancelled but the underlying debt Germany
incurred via various payoff schemes (Dawes, Young, Lausanne,
1953 settlement ) did not vanish. The cancellation presumably
dissolved the massive interest accruals, punitive fines, etc. in order
to clearly establish a final payoff amount.

So, Germany was making reparation payments on borrowed funds
and finally liquidated that unresolved debt in Oct 2010.

Clear as mud? :)

From the Wikipedia article cited:

"To help make reparations payments, Germany took out various loans during the 1920s. In 1933, following the cancellation of reparations, the new German Chancellor Adolf Hitler cancelled all payments. In June 1953, an agreement was reached on this existing debt with West Germany. Germany agreed to repay 50 per cent of the loan amounts that had been defaulted on in the 1920s, but deferred some of the debt until West and East Germany were unified. In 1995, following reunification, Germany began making the final payments towards the loans. A final installment of US$94 million was made on 3 October 2010, settling German loan debts in regard to reparations.[93]"

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
Thank you for the clarification.

My point was that after WWI and well through Hitler's reign Germany paid nothing of their own money, and what little was repaid was a fraction of the loans Germany solicited from other nations. As you can see from Churchill's quote and the Wiki article.

In fact their apparent economic improvements after their economic disaster was due to the loans.

The notion that the Versailles treaty reparations had any burden on Germany and contributed to its economic problems after WWI is false.

[Dungeness]

In fact their apparent economic improvements after their economic disaster was due to the loans.

Yes and as mentioned any devastated nation would use loans
to rebuild its economy and recover sufficiently to pay debts.
Lending nations and trading partners wanted the same thing.
Otherwise, Germany woulda been looking for more loans as
recurrent reparation payments came due.

The notion that the Versailles treaty reparations had any burden on Germany and contributed to its economic problems after WWI is false.

I believe economists and historians' opinions vary on that issue
from my casual reading of the Wikipedia article: "Several historians
take the middle ground between condemning reparations and
supporting the argument that they were not a complete burden
upon Germany."

One thing is certain. Politicalization of the issue as well as the
German banks pumping out "funny" money leading to hyper-
inflation had devastating effects on the German people. You
shopped on your lunch hour to beat price spikes and carried
marks in overflowing bags and wagons. No wonder ordinary
Germans had no appetite for "reparation taxes" to help pay for
the Kaiser's War.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
My point was that Hitler exacerbated the problem by blaming the banks who were helping Germany out. Yes, you print money when you must. But Hitler pulled millions of people out of economic productivity and placed them into weapons manufacturing and stockpiling for his dream of war. Weapons that were not being brought into the international market place for economic gain, but only further burdening Germany's empoverished economy.

Hitler then pulled millions more people away from economic contribution by expanding the military.

And Hitler took millions more skilled professionals and their businesses and families out of the workforce as prisoners/slaves and further, taking on the burden to feed, house and clothe them when Germany had no economic capacity for such burdens.

These were all moves that further empoverished Germany's economy, and they were all fueled by the generous loans of the international banking community, and England in particular. Hitler was betting he could steal the wealth of Poland, Austria, Hungary and Yogoslavia. But that was a fool's dream. Poverty and pride are a bad combination. They can make people do very hateful things, even self - destructive things, even when others are trying to help and investing in their country.

[Jesse]

I'm glad you two are figuring out the motives of Hitler and the details of post war debt. And to think, all this free work you're doing for humanity is happening because I wanted one person to be more like the Cambodians and not use every moment of his life manipulating people due to an atrocity he wasn't a part of.

The world is so indebted to you for all the work you're doing discovering how Germany was forced to pay back all the countries that bombed them into near oblivion and then pissed on their graves and made thousands of highly profitable movies demonizing them.

Thank you both.

[777. -🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈 🙏🌺🌈]

24/7 DAILY MAGIC

Sitting on my horse
riding on the road
until I can no more
and
Nobody tells me Nothing

Seeing a cow, saying : Oh Lord , thank U I don't eat You,

Seeing a fly : thinking Oh Lord , So glad I Love You

. . . and a tree, a. a stone even : OMG

Put some of my Simran to them All

What a Grace , . . that this happened to me

777

OK. let's read Brians latest post now

[Michael]

Spence and Dungeness
This is Gorecki’s 3rd symphony.
It is from a series of sorrowful songs.
This one was recorded in one of the death camps.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=miLV0o4AhE4

[Jesse]

The horses hooves crushing hundreds of small animals and bugs beneath it saying : Oh Lord, you created me to destroy

Not seeing hundreds of flies and millions of microorganisms and trillions of things being killed just by the fact that I'm burning electricity to write psychotic faux spiritual poetry: thinking Oh Lord, So glad I publicly celebrate my pretentious morality and ignore all the terrible things I passive aggressively judge others for doing

Put some curses to them All

What a damnation... this happened to me.

[🌈]

It's amazing. . . . Yes
But all will go home and even feel better
even a stone
There is no other place to go, . . . may take some "time"

777

[Jen]

Gosh, as if life isn't difficult enough, just checking in to see what people are talking about and everything is so grim. Does anyone else notice how argumentative and vicious people are becoming. Anyway, its probably good to vent. Such is life !!

[Dungeness]

This is Gorecki’s 3rd symphony.

Thanks for this. It's beautiful and evocative.

[💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥]

Yes Jen
Beauty is nothing with an ugly tongue
Let s cheer them up a little

💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥❤️💥

[Jesse]

Any use of "shabd" is problematic, because "shabd" probably doesn't exist, and there is no way to know if you've contacted "shabd" or "prana" or "Qi" or are "hallucinating" or had some other less spiritual variety of sensation. You may have felt kundalini, and mistook it for shabd, or felt Qi, and thought it was prana.

Your entire experience is one of assumptions based on a limited number of new age books you've encountered. You also can't compare your experience with shabd, because nobody knows what it is. 2 people may have had entirely different experiences with entirely different "subtle energies", that when vaguely describing them come to the conclusion that it's the same thing. Just as a Hindu is more likely to see Krishna than Jesus in an ecstatic vision, so is a RS devotee prone to calling whatever they experience as a byproduct or attribute of "shabd," whereas a Qigong practitioner will never, ever knowingly feel or experience shabd. Even if they did experience it, they'd think it's Qi.

Are Qi, Prana, Kundalini and Shabd the same thing? Maybe, or maybe not. I don't know, and neither do you, nor do you have any way of knowing.

Had you not become a neo-Sikh ashram attendee or joined a sect of the Radha Soami faith, you likely wouldn't have a word for hearing things in meditation, and had you heard sounds or had experiences out of the ordinary, you most certainly wouldn't already have a preconceived list of connotations and expectations concerning what you hear. You certainly wouldn't have a list of modern day morals that one must adhere to in order to experience this stuff. Chinese buddhists hear inner sounds, not shabd, and don't get all wrapped up in it.

Sounds you hear in meditation are not "shabd."

The creation of the world is not the product of "shabd."

the holy spirit of the bible is not "shabd."

Cults and religions are stupid.

Just experience whatever you experience. There's no reason to pretend to know anything.

[Jesse]

"the light didn't choose me anymore than sunlight chooses someone. It shines on all of us"

Spence, I'm not asking this to be a dick, I promise.

But that phrase sounds like part of the RSSB, or many religions and cults, party line. Is it something you believe, or would you say that you personally experience and know via experience that some divine light, not the sunlight obviously, shines on all?

And if you do personally see it, how specifically do you see or experience a divine light shining on everyone? What does it look like in your experience ?

[anami]

Uh oh, and "knowledge is power" is commonly attributed to Sir Francis Bacon. Well, as I said, every certainty contains the seeds of self deception!

[Dungeness]

The world is so indebted to you for all the work you're doing discovering how Germany was forced to pay back all the countries that bombed them into near oblivion and then pissed on their graves and made thousands of highly profitable movies demonizing them.

Ah, faux-outrage on Germany's behalf. How touching from someone
who up-thread opined this contemptible Holocaust revisionism:

try to go 5 minutes without dropping holocaust propaganda into your posts sometime. There were real tragedies in WW2, lots of people died, and none of them in "gas chambers."