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August 03, 2019


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He lied. Now we can all conjecture about why.
Honestly, I got the silence. I didn't admire it. But I understood it. But the open baldfaced lie is too much like an entitled Billionaire who thinks he already owns whatever he sees.

The lie takes the whole situation into one more, unexpected, level of darkness, down into one darker region of hell for all of us.

Why, Brian Ji! ? Why is he lying?! It's unnecessary.. I could believe he let events unfold around him. But lying is an active position.

Why Baba Ji, are you doing this, and pulling the whole thing down deeper?

Brian Ji, why is he doing this!?

Brian, great post for anyone to get the news and info regarding this fraud. Information is and should be available for everyone to at least be aware that this fraud has taken place and the guru's apparent dismissal in acknowledging it when asked in a group Q&A session.

I was there at Petaluma. Regardless of what Gurinder said, he had guilt written all over his face.

Hi Neha, I don't know how you can see guilt in someone's face, but he was probably more surprised than anything that someone actually asked the question about this fraud. Would love to hear the answer to someone asking the question about the court order against himself and his family, in addition to the other higher up RSSB people.

"Why is he lying?!"

Because he's human.

What nonsense - not an ounce of evidence. Conjecture and propaganda.
The unholy church of the hang’m high club.

No doubt this won’t be posted either

So let me understand your position, Georgy Porgy.

You are claiming that the High Court of Delhi hasn't issued an order requiring the freezing of assets owned by Gurinder Singh Dhillon, his family, and close associates, so those assets can be sold to pay the $500 million Malvinder and Shivinder Singh owe to Daiichi via a court settlement decision.

So the High Court of Delhi order doesn't exist? The stories in the Indian financial press, one of which I shared verbatim in this post, are "conjecture and propaganda"?

If so, wow. You're worse than Donald Trump and his constant "fake news" lies.

If not, I accept your apology. Maybe you were in an altered state of consciousness when you wrote your comment that prevented you from distinguishing fact from fiction.

Brian, I would like to ask a question

[[When people sell houses there is always something in the contract on "hidden shortcomings" if that is the right expression in English]]

When the brothers inherited the industry from their father, did they know about the "hidden shortcomings" of the production of medicines and/or before they sold the compagny?

What nonsense - not an ounce of evidence. -Georgy porgy

Not sure how you can logically make that statement. Obviously there is a high court order, and that is evidence, a lot more than an ounce.

Now you could make a different argument like “the court has made the wrong decision and I believe the Dhillon family will appeal”
That would at least be a logical position to hold, but just to flat out deny the evidence makes no logical sense.

um, yes the FDA in the United States found that the Singh brothers failed to disclose problems with the drugs they were manufacturing, as did, I believe a US court and a Singapore court. That's why the Singh brothers have to pay $500 million to the company that bought Ranbaxy. You can Google this to learn more. I haven't followed the issue all that closely. There's a whole book about this scandal that I recall seeing mention of.

He lied to all of us, to you and to me. And yes it's personal.
He broke his promises.
He had a golden moment to humbly tell the fucking TRUTH.

And he fucking lied.

Yah Jesse human beings do that. W all have feet of clay. But there are moments where we have a chance at our own redemption. Where in one public moment we can choose to do the right thing no matter what our past. And then the corner.

And he chose to fucking lie. He chose the dirt instead of the sky.

The facts are all there. It's so obvious.

This was his big moment. His chance. Fate brought the moment of accountability to him in the nicest way possible.

Now a prosecuting attorney, and then a judge, will have to ask him again.

And the wrong answer will have its consequences.

He fucking lied. I don't believe it!!

Interesting blog for those who consider the Beas lineage to be false.
Do any non Beas Radha Soamis post on here.

Brian, you wrote that they "failed to disclose"

This "failing" as far as my understanding of english goes means in the first place that the court magistrates, take the stand that they as owners could have known and/or should have known of these problems.
Either way for the court magistrates they as owners are in any case responsible for these production problems.

If I sell a house and later the new owner discovers that something is wrong with the construction ,legaly I am accountable, whether i knew it when i sold the house or not.

For what happened later, and for the understanding of the drama, it is of importance to know for sure what these brothers knew of these production problems and when exactly they were informed.

My english is not good enough to understand all the legal documents that have past here
so if you could shed some light on it, it would be welcome.


The book is called "bottle of lies" . Think the author is Kathleen Eban

Hi, Spence. I have a theory on why Baba Ji keeps doing this.

Remember David Lane's The Unknowing Sage? Faqir Chand is frustrated and appeals to his Master. Though he's "traversed many inner regions" and "experienced Shabd in indescribable abundance," he has not attained the supremacy of the Radhasoami faith. Hazur Data Dayal Ji Maharaj orders Faqir Chand to take disciples of his own "saying, 'Faqir, you are yourself the Supreme Master of your time. Start delivering spiritual discourses to the seekers and initiate them into the path of Sant Mat. In due course of time, your own satsangis will prove to be your True Guru, and it is through your experiences with them that the desired secret of Sant Mat will be revealed to you.'" (p. 20)

I imagine a similar conversation between Charan Singh and Gurinder Singh but with a difference. Instead of "his own satsangis," the True Guru for Gurinder would be "money," and that is why Baba Ji went, and continues to go, so deep--as a matter of faith and devotion! He thinks Charan Singh gave him a spiritual mandate to go utterly crazy with money, fully embracing the wealth and attitudes of billionaires! What Baba Ji has yet to realize is that Maharaj Ji never meant success in money. It's failure in money that will take Baba Ji to the supreme goal! We could live to see Baba Ji make a 180° transformation.

Amar, why can't you see guilt in a person's face? Also, why would he be surprised by the question? In fact, he should be surprised that it took so long for the question to be asked, I'm sure he's been expecting it for a long time.

Comparable to inner wealth and delight the worldly possessions though necessary for pulling a life are insignificant and non bothering.

He knows better than any rest of us.

Then why is He attracting more. and. more. fingers to be pointed at Him is a huge mystery. His believers should still be after Truth for He signifies the Truth behind the veils.

May be He is still speaking the Truth but commenters and this blog suggest that iits. not logical and believable in the face of mega fin mess that encircled Guru's immediate family.

Neha, facial expressions can imply all sorts of things. However, I agree, he should be surprised he hasn't been asked earlier.

Seeker's applying for RSSB initiation are told they have to be entirely self-supporting financially. Not their wives, not their children, not their parents, not anyone else but the person requesting initiation. And their means of employment are morally scrutinized. Owners of liquor stores are denied initiation (or so I was told by an initiate at Petaluma).

Seekers are also told that the Master is a model of scrupulous financial self-support. We're told that the Master never takes a penny from anyone. One of the RSSB books tells of how Sawan was fanatical about making sure he paid to the last penny.

But it appears there's a double standard. Masters aren't practicing the financial morals they preach. For the Master's, money that they get through family members somehow isn't "their" money.

No doubt Gurinder did inherit money from his parents. But his tacit claim that the gigantic sums his wife was wheeling and dealing through corporate loan shenanigans was in no way Gurinder's money.

Apparently, it's quite OK when the Guru gets lots of money through his family, and quite OK when he borrows large sums from people and forces them to sue him to get the money back. And per such financial affairs, the guru can say the money involved wasn't "his" money at all. Even when he's legally tied to the money - -and without doubt, Gurinder Singh must be legally tied to his wife's financial holdings -- he can say that his wife's financial status is totally separate from his own.

It's quite a double standard.

And it's not just happening in RSSB. We still don't know how Sant Rajinder Singh manages to live in a 2 million dollar home despite not having had a job for the past 30 years. Even if the most innocent explanation turns out to be true - - that Rajinder's wealthy brother is giving him all the money -- it's still a contradiction of sant mat's stated moral scruples.

One thing about sant mat's actual moral principles that seems beyond dispute -- the interests of the guru's family come before everything else.

"But there are moments where we have a chance at our own redemption. Where in one public moment we can choose to do the right thing no matter what our past. And then the corner. "

This sounds like an optimistic movie plot more than real life.

"I don't believe it!! "

Yeah. It's that expectation that life plays out like a movie I was just discussing in the last sentence. These people have tricked millions of people for successive generations. Why would that all come to an end because one person asked a question about money?

I probably would have lied too. If I stole a tremendous amount of money and I thought I was going down, or even if I was innocent as believers think of Gurinder, I'd be having so much fun with it. There's no way anyone would get a serious answer from me about anything.

Forget lying, I'd play up my holiness in ways you cannot imagine and making the most absurd and inappropriate requests from my disciples. "If you truly believe, you'll dance naked before me now!" Try to get kicked out of a country or two like Osho did. Do all Osho's degenerate shenanigans minus the terrorism.

Jesse I'm surprised you think that turning a corner in one's life and choosing honesty is some distant movie script. People live that every single day. They choose the tough way, not the way easy, because they are driven to do so and can't live with themselves otherwise.

I understand that's not everyone. And I understand how if you haven't been there you might not get it. It's a 'do the right thang' thang.

"Seeker's applying for RSSB initiation are told they have to be entirely self-supporting financially."

I was loafing around India and blowing money I didn't have when I was accepted for initiation. Nobody said anything about jobs or which one, if any, of my girlfriends I was allowed to take money from when I applied.

Why would having a job even matter anyway? When RSSB was criticized in the past for not doing an amount of charity corresponding to the size of the "sangat", they brushed it off by saying that it's a spiritual organization and nothing more, even going as far as saying that charity is involvement in the world and a distraction from spiritual practice.

How would being a part of the modern work-obsessed, money hungry world be a requirement to join, but helping the needy be considered detrimental and frowned upon? This requirement is especially strange considering that the original RS guru had an entire following of sadhus who he allegedly asked his wife or something to act as guru to when he died.

Just one of the many reasons why older religions tend to interest me more. Monasticism or householder life different modes or "ashramas" to adhere to, plus the wisdom of time and experience.

What's the point of going to some brick building to work for 40 hours, then on the weekend you go to a satsang in another lifeless brick building where you hear a speech, don't pray or do meditation, and are discouraged from socializing with fellow travelers. RS has no concept of aesthetics and the role they play in spirituality or the role of community.

On top of it all, the guru steals and lies lol.

Hi arjuna. You're right, that's the name of the book. I'm reading it now and it is very well written. Really engrossing and can't seem to put it down. Goes into the history of the FDA and how the generic drug companies have flourished and why (falsifying records and full out fraud). I don't think I'll be getting any generic drugs if I can help it after I read this book!

She digs in deep on Ranbaxy, so it's getting interesting now.

What's the point of going to some brick building to work for 40 hours, then on the weekend you go to a satsang in another lifeless brick building where you hear a speech, don't pray or do meditation, and are discouraged from socializing with fellow travelers. RS has no concept of aesthetics and the role they play in spirituality or the role of community.

Hm, I think the flock can tune out no matter what lifeless building they
worship in. Even in the most storied, the most aesthetically beautiful,
replete with solemn pageantry, listen closely... you'll hear snores.

Spirituality is inward, no matter what the building is, no matter how
resonant or soothing the music seems, or how thrilling the sermon is.

Dungeness, strictly speaking, I don't care about spirituality, and it's likely that nobody does. But assuming spirituality, whatever that word means, is all "inward", there is still a reason why every religion, and even Sawan Singh and other RS gurus, build ornate structures for their ceremonies instead of using office buildings with fluorescent lights, and utilize beautiful singers instead of the sounds of pigs snorting or crows cawing.

Yes, I'm sure sometimes people fall asleep in cathedrals, but it's nowhere near as bad as a local satsang in a dingy high school meeting room. My years after RS have been spent at the temples of many different religions and I've found in general that people are far more involved, excited, and generally happy to be there than anyone was at satsangs. Go to a Hindu temple some time and see if anyone is sleeping. You're more likely to see dancing or someone chanting stotrams and mantras in front of the statues very sincerely. The temple by my apartment is extremely active and on the weekends holds dozens of classes for adults and kids ranging from carnatic singing, dancing, bhagavad gita and at least 3 languages. What can you learn at a satsang? Half the speakers read from a script, often times repeating satsangs over and over for years on end.

To force ugliness into the world, which as we're learning more about Gurinder is likely his attempt to save/siphon money, isn't "spiritual." Even if its done out of efficiency or to downplay the importance of physical beauty in relation to supposed inner beauty, it still doesn't make sense because nobody is impelled by outer ugliness to meditate or seek inner visions. If they were, ghettos wouldn't be filled with crime, but with saints and devotees. Just as Charan Singh said about people worshiping him "may your love of the form culminate in love of the formless", so too could/can/should/does inspiration from the beauty of the house of worship and the community culminate in a desire to seek inner beauty.

But nobody who is part of that cult cares, because Radha Soami isn't serious about anything at all, ever.

Brian, thank you for the title of the book.
I hoped you could have given me the answer right away.

sooner or later not only the facts but also the story behind the facts will become clear.
Untill then i guess i will have to drink more then one cup of coffee.

I agree 100% with two disciples of this unholy church on two issues:

+ Amar is wholly correct that any person who judges another based on his ‘look’ or ‘picture’ as being ‘guilty’ or ‘evil’ has no further credence or relevance in terms of offering any unbiased logical comment.

+ Jesse is wholly correct with his comment on free speech on the other channel. I can even understand the request for civility, but many of my posts are being banned not based on a personal attack or any swearing, merely because I take a different viewpoint.

This sort of website should never be allowed as it becomes a propaganda forum. It’s big brother monitoring and insidious. At least if you let ppl with different views comment, you could at least superficially claim that it’s a forum that allows ppl to have different viewpoints.

What can you learn at a satsang? Half the speakers read from a script, often times repeating satsangs over and over for years on end.

I agree there are joyous religious celebrations in every culture. Boring ones
too. Yet there beautiful RSSB satsangs as well. I've heard them even here in
CofC... memorable mini-satsangs. They resonate because they're not scripted,
because they touch an inner part of us that wants to find out who we are,
why we're here, what stands in our way. Whatever path leads you inward to
those answers is valid. They all become true paths.

To force ugliness into the world, which as we're learning more about Gurinder is likely his attempt to save/siphon money, isn't "spiritual." Even if its done out of efficiency or to downplay the importance of physical beauty in relation to supposed inner beauty, it still doesn't make sense because nobody is impelled by outer ugliness to meditate or seek inner visions. If they were, ghettos wouldn't be filled with crime, but with saints and devotees.

Heck, the mess GSD's in barely registers in the overflowing "bucket of ugly".
Look at the toxic nature of the thoughts that run through our heads 24x7.
What drives our spiritual impulses is our own ugliness, not someone else's.

"This sort of website should never be allowed as it becomes a propaganda forum. It’s big brother monitoring and insidious"

What? That's hyperbole multiplied by hyperbole.

There is a lot of debate here. Your commemt getting lost or deleted doesn't make Brian a propagandist.

This is a private and small blog. It's not as if Brian has tracking cookies that he uses to follow us around with or he's censoring millions of people to sway elections like Russia....no wait, they didn't do anything. I mean Google, Twitter, and Facebook.

Calling a blog about religion "big brother" is absurd.

Some on this blog will argue so what the Master told a white lie, our president tells lies left and right! To others, such as myself, it is a much more serious matter for our master to tell a lie when the most critical brick in the foundation of spirituality is honesty.
People who have invested/sacrificed decades of their lives for the master scrupulously obeying every command (no matter how ridiculous at times) while straining relationships with their families and at work in search of the truth, deserve to know all there is to know. Hazoor used to publish end of year financial budget of dera annually. Once satsangis are aware of all facts, then they can decide if they wish to continue their search with current master or seek it somewhere else.
I think the master or dera management owe them this much courtesy.
Interestingly, at Haynes Park about 1.5 years ago, a disciple of Sachaa Saudaa asked for BBji's advise on how to move forward after his master was jailed. He was told to continue following the path given to him by his master regardless of the fact that his master's crimes. At the time, I thought BBji didn't want to say anything negative about another guru.
Now I am wondering if a guru's background, honesty, integrity, dignity are really that important at all to help disciples reach Sach Khand? Or was BBji possibly paving a path for his disciples to continue to follow his path if something ever came up about his involvement in current financial misdeeds?
I beg Dera management to declare or refute any involvement by BBji or senior sevadars of RSSB in the current situation.

@ di,
What better other advise could have been given?

At the time of initiation, people commit themselves, for the rest of their lives to live a certain life.

That commitments stands irrespective of what the other party does.
His uncle has addressed this issue many a times, saying that if one party breaks up the deal the other party is not absolved of his duties.

Having said this I do realise that it is not so easy to go on with a practice after ones guru is found to have committed a crime but if you think about it you might find that is the best solution.

Even if there is no god and the guru false, this practice, if done with heart, doesn't make one go empty handed… even atheists can understand that.

What is wrong with trying to live a moral life, eat vegetarian and stay away from mind altering drugs and spending some time a day in meditation?!

Why should one turn ones back upon a thing one started out with joy?!

To continue a sound practice one doesn't need anything from anybody, you need not to understand what is going on, you need not take a stand pro or contra; you can, it is up to anybody, but it is no need or obligation.

Compare it with pious people who go to their church, mosque or temple to pray for the welfare of themselves and those near and dear to them … why should they give up that practice because the clergy and or the organisation is found to have made crimes?!

Would that not be punishing oneself for the crimes another committed?!

"That commitments stands irrespective of what the other party does."

You didn't by chance happen to be one of the negotiators of the Iran nuclear deal on behalf of the USA did you? I'd suspect you were involved in all the broken treaties the USA had with the natives, but it's unlikely you're more than 200 years old.

"why should they give up that practice because the clergy and or the organisation is found to have made crimes?!"

Because, with the exception of the Pope and even that in a more limited way than an RS guru, none of these religions are rooted in a foundation of a perfect living godman. None of the RS teachings mean anything at all without a "perfect" "master." He is the thing you're supposed to visualize. He's the savior you are taught you need to carry you through the heavens. He is the shabd incarnate.

Some granthi watching porn in the gurdwara doesn't change the guru granth sahib. A priest fondling kids doesn't negate Christ's sacrifice or the gospel. Mohamed's quran isn't altered by a psychopath's market bombing. The traditional faiths' objects of faith are unchanged by the actions of any particular individual.

Not so with RS whose sole object of worship is a living man. A man who made friends with a lot of shady people in this case. His personal actions are intrinsically tied to the faith. When he steals, the faith has stolen. If he were to murder, it means the god or prophet of RS was a murderer.

You can't compare a guru cult to an old book cult in the way you're trying. Without the guru, there is no sound meditation or radha soami path at all. Without him, there was no commitments or oaths to uphold because the contract is immediately void when you learn, or decide that he's not a worthy guru.

Jesse, I know this is taking what i call "the small and narrow path" and is not so easy to take.

Sant Mat is not about worshiping a living man, that is how most people see it. Who is responsible for that viewpoint I don't know.

Based upon previous gurus who started the bhakti movement sant mat tells that the lord, being the owner of the sheeps [souls], sends his servant, the shepherd or master to collect certain sheep. In that tale it doesn't matter what the sheep wants. The del of the master is with the one who sent him, not with his disciples.

This tale looks different depending from what side one approaches it. From the side of the seeker, disciple or student it looks as if HE or SHE made the choice, From the side of the Lord neither the master nor the disciple has anything to say in the matter.

Mind you, I am not the inventor of this tale, nor does it mater what i personal hold of it … I just present it here as the core teaching of sant mat.

If you read the words of the different gurus of this lineage and how they present this tale in time you will find that the supposed founder, Swami Ji of Agra speaks different about the different roles in the play then his succesors do. These days the path is more and more approached as an "Buddhist" doctrine, where the progress is based upon ones personal effort and the help of an qualified teacher.

Love, respect , duties etc etc are all gifts, gifts for free, …. if not free it becomes merchandise.

Of course it is more attractive and easy to love and respect a person that lives up to ones expectations. …. it is the wide road.

I appreciate, agree with, and understand your perspective and am practicing my commitment daily.

Regarding your "good advise" phrase:
Malav and Shivi 's father passed on. They got "good advice" from the same advisor. Everyone said who can advise better than the Guru......we are witnessing the rest of the story.

Di, if a farmer has done his part in sowing etc, that doesn't mean he will grow an healthy crop there are other factors that determine the outcome.

The same is with giving and acting on given advice. Good advice can turn out badly.

The future will learn what the intentions were of all the participants, whether they were driven by greed or tried to solve a problem.

What to say of the possible spiritual meaning … literature is full of stories that looked ugly from worldly perspective but were very good seen from the spiritual perspective.

It is a pleasure reading these stories in books or hearing them being told but when they are an actual reality then it becomes another cup of tea.... like the story of abraham offering his son. Jumping into abys when one has the prove that the one asking for it is an genuine saint is quite another affair than when you just don't know. To take that risk of losing ones life in faith and love is not every ones cup of tea.

Again following a teacher that in all aspects behaves according ones expectations is easy it needs mothing. Like it demands no effort to stay with a marriage partner to acts up to one's mark.

It is all too human

"Sant Mat is not about worshiping a living man, that is how most people see it. Who is responsible for that viewpoint I don't know."

Actually, Shiv Dayal in Sar Bachan stressed guru devotion very strongly, as did Tulsi Sahib. Sawan (Spiritual Gems) and Jagat (The Science of the Soul) both made the flat statement that "sant mat IS gur yoga." Charan the guru seemed to back away from guru bhakti. Note I say "seemed," because Charan never said his predecessors were wrong about guru devotion. Charan also stated that his after-death destination was to be with Sawan, and that ours was to be with him.

Of course, people can do whatever works for them, and we can go on forever about sant mat definitions of "guru" (is it the man, or shabd, or God, or our Self, or some kind of interdependent divine polygon of all 5 ). But if sant mat has any orthodox tenets, guru bhakti is foremost.

Old Punjabi saying: "a piece of wood may full of knots, as long as, the carpenter is straight something good can be made."

"I know this is taking what i call "the small and narrow path" and is not so easy to take."

Not sure if it's easy or not, but it's definitely stupid.

"Sant Mat is not about worshiping a living man"

According to you. Not those who provided you with the term "sant mat."

"Based upon previous gurus who started the bhakti movement sant mat tells that the lord, being the owner of the sheeps [souls], sends his servant, the shepherd or master to collect certain sheep...."

As far as I know, this is just an illustration that Charan Singh used. It's not "sant mat."

Sure, maybe the term has developed over time to mean something else, but that change doesn't seem organic. The majority of people who follow one of these gurus, not including western apologists, believe wholeheartedly that their guru is god. None of these gurus will correct you if you call them master or god.

"Sant Mat is not about worshiping a living man" Holy cow!! SM2.0 is succeeding everybody!!! Wooo!!

It seems impossible not to lie. We can even lie to ourselves quite a bit. I used to use positive affirmations which I thought might help but its just me trying to convince myself to feel better and its just nonsense. There aren't many people who are straight talkers who actually mean what they say even though we all do try to be honest.

Also the way I think nowadays about how I used to believe that some human being is perfect and can actually save us seems so very strange. How the mind tricks us. I prefer the middle way now, all this talk of right and wrong, I prefer to think life is just a balancing act between the two extremes.

Lie to me https://youtu.be/gTmZYNsV9Ng

You can see everything in a person’s face if you’re trained or just a natural.

On a side note: if it weren’t for Daiichi Sankyo it’s likely none of this would ever had made news. Boy are they relentless. Makes one wonder if they have a personal grudge that goes beyond business matters. But since Gurinder doesn’t believe in forgiveness he’s taking the full force of the blow. I guess that’s his karma... no mercy no forgiveness.

GSD is quite literally the anti-Christ in the sense that he stands against everything Jesus taught. I’m not religious but I find his “no mercy” stance remarkable.

At least someone had the guts to get up and ask the question at a big meeting! Avoiding facts, dodging the issue, covering up, not being transparent- guess that all amounts to another form of lying. So yes he certainly did!
There are several ways gurus can fall off their perch; drink and drugs has always been popular (Chogyam Trungpa). sex scandals (Sai Baba/Da Free John) and most of the above (Osho Rajneesh). Satsangi stalwarts should be grateful its not some of the other things! Or is fleecing other people of their investments, especially from the health care system where it is invested in patient care, the same level of negative behaviour?
Either way it doesn't stack up. GSD is no more or less GIHF than the next person!

J writes: "We still don't know how Sant Rajinder Singh manages to live in a 2 million dollar home despite not having had a job for the past 30 years." "We" don't know? Doesn't someone know? Isn't he the co-owner and involved in the management of some company? Interesting. With Gurinder you're always exhorting everyone to wait for the evidence and not engage in "mccarthyism". We need to be superduper careful getting all the facts not rushing to judgement. You're hyper cautious willing to adjudicate point by point all the details about Gurinder's role in the Ranbaxy scandal, but with this other guru it's just a matter of typing up some speculation about income you apparently know nothing about and hitting the SEND button. Yeeehaaaw! Why the double standard?

Malvinder states that “loans were given to Dhillon”
But is there a “loan agreement” in place that shows
1. It was a LOAN and not a business transaction for a different purpose. For example is might be a joint venture to invest in property for profit, then when the investment went DOWN instead of up, malvinder decided it was a loan.
2. The purpose of the loan. Malvinder makes out that Dhillon invested the money into property, almost accusing him of doing something “wrong” by investing in real estate.
3. What were the terms of the loan? What was the date of repayment?
Have any of the terms been breached? Can Malvinder legally demand the loan back if Dhillon has not breached any of the terms.

I am not saying any of this is the case. I am just saying it may not be as simple as Spence keeps os saying
“Babaji please pay your delinquent loans”

I will admit I have not followed this closely and I might have some information wrong, as it’s not something I have devoted much time to, but unless someone has information to the contrary, it could be true that he has not borrowed any money from Malvinder and Shivinder.
It is far more likely to be some business deal. Admittedly it may not be all above board, and is likely to be a joint operation but all I am saying it may well not be a loan at all.

Jesse, everybody deals with what the world presents to him according his or her mental make up, culture, social background. Concepts as used in religious sphere are no exclusion.

Even as a kid I wondered how people of different christian denominations would deal with the same religion, some would have always a stern face and would seldom smile , let alone laugh and others were like the weather

Some women would suffer mentally under the rules of the church regarding anti conception and others had no problem with it.

The small path does exist and those who had the courage and made it never went empty handed from that trip.

It is all about how to deal with "rules" and in different cultures and social groups that is done differently. Some seem "to live for the rules" and for others, "the rules are there for them"

Later I found that western followers of this or that guru did so according their religious background etc. It was funny to register all these differences it made me laugh often and i made it into a sport to tell their religious background from the way they talked about things of sant mat.

So there is no reason that it would be different with other people elsewhere on the globe.

Apart from how people "talk" about sant mat and conform in the congregation to make themselves seen as "good", there is also how people walk their talk.

Hi One
You wrote
"Asking Master a question, and then mark HIS answer a lie. Outstanding!
We need to evaluate and scrutinise ourselves more than the Master."

Why ask any question at all if you cannot evaluate the answer?

Yes, this self - scrutiny should lead to change!

This is the problem of believing physical Master is God. Once you cling to that, and believe Daddy knows best, even better than you do, then all crimes are permissible.

This is why the fake Guru business has thrived.

A thief would want to be a guru, because they would not have to hide their actions.

Without any basis, except your emotional attachment, all the evidence you dismiss.

And there is so much evidence of Baba Ji's lie: he has been listed on the boards of several different companies as a major shareholder, including his own holding company. He receives income from numerous sources, including hundreds of millions of dollars in fraudulent, and legally binding, loans, and similarly holds liabilities as any shareholder, for each of these.

You might just as readily ask him why he lied. It's a good question since the lie is so transparent.

He had the opportunity to behave like a responsible human being and be candid and forthright about his business dealings.

Instead he has chosen, for whatever reason, to be on different occasions, flippant and dishonest. And in all, opaque. He has chosen to behave as a criminal, rather than as a human being who made some mistakes.

Rather than go within to understand these actions, and share a deeper understanding, you have chosen to cling to your blind faith without any effort to understand. This is not how the journey to Truth actually works..

Blind faith isn't really faith. It is a lazy approach. It's a way for people to make excuses, not for the Guru, but for themselves.

Do your homework, then share, please, what you have learned about these matters.

Here, in this Church of the Churchless, we are all encouraged by Brian Ji to think for ourselves. But thinking is also work. It requires acknowledging facts and lies, however painful. And it yields its own results.

Fairbanks writes: "We still don't know how Sant Rajinder Singh manages to live in a 2 million dollar home despite not having had a job for the past 30 years." "We" don't know? Doesn't someone know? Isn't he the co-owner and involved in the management of some company? Interesting. With Gurinder you're always exhorting everyone to wait for the evidence and not engage in "mccarthyism". We need to be superduper careful getting all the facts not rushing to judgement. You're hyper cautious willing to adjudicate point by point all the details about Gurinder's role in the Ranbaxy scandal, but with this other guru it's just a matter of typing up some speculation about income you apparently know nothing about and hitting the SEND button. Yeeehaaaw! Why the double standard?

Fairbanks, no double standard really. It would be a double standard if I were condemning one guru and favoring another, but I'm not. I find Gurinder's financial affairs questionable, and I also find Rajinder's hard to understand. I don't think either guru deserves a pass from inquiry. Especially since both of these gurus are somehow quite wealthy despite neither of them having had a paying job in the 30 years.

We know that Rajinder Singh said he quit his engineering career when he became guru 30 years ago. That's always been the official line from SOS. The reason? Obviously, because being Guru leaves no time for a job.

We also know that Rajinder's younger brother Mac Duggal reported that "the responsibility fell to him" to financially support Rajinder's family when he became Guru. Again, the implication is that being guru allows no time for a job.

And we know that Rajinder lives in a 2 million dollar home, owns expensive sports cars, and put 2 children through medical school. The question then, and it's a fair question I think, is where the money is coming from to allow Rajinder such a lifestyle?

It's true that Rajinder is listed as an employee of a software firm. What he does for this firm and how he finds time to work for this firm is unknown. But it is known that the firm is owned by a wealthy SOS satsangi. People can make of that what they wish. But given that a satsangi owns the firm, I have to wonder if Rajinder is really working there, if he's earning a huge salary from for services he provides....or if this is a no-show job.

If Rajinder truly is working for this software firm, how in the world does he find time to do it? Again, didn't he quit being an engineer because it got in the way of being guru? And if Rajinder is a legit employee of this firm, why is this never mentioned in official SOS channels? Rajinder, like his father and grandfather, isn't shy about mentioning his accomplishments. What greater accomplishment than working a full-time job while also working full time as a guru! So if Rajinder is indeed working a full-time job while being guru, I find it strange he never mentions it to the world.

It could be that younger brother Mac Duggal is still giving Rajinder money, perhaps all his money. And if so, apparently lots of money. There's nothing illegal about that. But again, it's funny that (to my knowledge) Rajinder has never credited his brother for his considerable generosity. Instead, the line from SOS is that we should all be self-supporting as satsangis, "earn money by the sweat of our brow" (Kirpal Singh), and that Rajinder is a retiree living off whatever he earned 30 years ago.

To be clear Fairbanks, I have no knowledge that Rajinder has done anything wrong, i.e. broken the law. But the fact of Rajinder's exceptional wealth, despite not having had time for a job for 30 years, despite never telling us that his brother may be giving him money, and despite the software firm he "works" for happens to be owned by an initiate, despite choosing to buy luxury items like Porsches, are I think valid questions to any sant mat guru who preaches that everyone should be financially self-supporting -- as Rajinder just did in a recent Sat Sandesh.


With "Sant Rajinder Singh" Aka Rajinder, we could just use physiognomy to ascertain a high likelihood of criminality.

Look at his cro magnon face and try to tell me you don't think that guy wouldn't club you over the head and break your arms just to steal a cheese burrito from your hands.

I read this over on the RS studies group and it was pretty funny:

Sant Mat 1.0: The guru will come for you at the time of death.

Sant Mat 2.0: The guru will threaten you with death.

Dear Spence,

Your sweet and innocent problem is that you hold excessively predetermined notions about not only everyone's opinion but also their experiences just like a sweet loving and curious kid, but in the process you misread and mis-comprehend the comments and totally missed my point.

I am common man who have served with honesty and faithfully for almost 24 years but after bring some facts of truth I was removed from service for which there are court cases filed against BABA GURINDER SINGH DHILLON & ors. My wife was sexually assaulted in their charitable hospital for which criminal FIR has been lodged. I AM FIGHTING ALONE FOR THE JUSTICE AND WANT SOME NGO FOR HELP. TO KNOW MORE ANY COME CAN CONTACT ME ON MY EMAIL [email protected]

J: The Rajinder group does seem to be really quiet about these family businesses. There surely must be some official documentation about who the corporate officers are and their official titles. It's perfectly fine in my view to research this. Do your homework! Have at it. I'm sure you'd find Rajinder Singh not listed as a sales rep or tech support though, lol. More likely he's somewhere at the top of management or at least one of the owners.

If the companies were front and center, talked about all the time in the satsangs, wouldn't that be more of a concern? Rajinder is "a businessman in his mind first, and a guru second", to borrow Brian's quote about Gurinder, is what you'd be saying. You'd be posting there is a master profiting off the backs of his disciples selling laptops, a line of clothing, or maybe it's shoes, and that sort of crass marketing of products to the satsangis goes against RS teachings! If they are keeping a low profile about the family owned businesses and the wealth generated by them, maybe there's a good reason for it?

Fairbanks: I agree that SOS and Rajinder Singh are quiet about the source of Rajinder's obvious wealth.

If any parallels can be drawn to RSSB, it's that SOS and RSSB both promote the idea that the guru stops being a businessman when he becomes guru. Both sant mat lines also promote the idea that the guru is only living off the money he personally earned before he became guru. And they promote the idea that the guru has little interest in material things and money, lives a simple life, doesn't live off of his followers, and isn't a financial burden to anyone.

Much of that can be condensed into a single moral ideal that goes to earliest days of sant mat: the guru doesn't use his influence and authority as a way to get money for himself.

Yet somehow, the current guru of RSSB has a private jet, and 2 people are suing him for huge unpaid loans.

Then there's the current guru of SOS.

He somehow owns 2 million dollar home, despite having said he quit his working life when he became guru back in 1989. He's supposed to be an employee of a software firm on top of his duties as a guru, which is impressive, given that he never talks about it, and that he finds time to work a 2nd job (besides running SOS). The only problem is that the firm happens to be owned by one of the guru's own wealthy followers. Perhaps that's just a coincidence. But it suggests to me the possibility of a spiritual quid pro quo going on between the guru and his follower, similar to, I don't know, a few devoted and loyal RSSB satsangis gutting 500 million dollars from a corporations coffers to give as unsecured loans to their guru's family.

I take it that the current explanation at SOS is that Rajinder Singh "went into business with" certain people after he became guru, and that explains his wealth. But I don't think that's much of an explanation, given that we know that Rajinder's own brother said that he just plain gave money to Rajinder. He made no mention of being business partners with his brother.


Then there's Rajinder's apparent employment as a software professional through a wealthy SOS satsangi.


All I can find on the net is Rajinder listed as being some kind of employee at this firm. Can't find any mention of him on LinkedIn, or any reference to him in anyone's business network.

With all of that, it seems possible to me that the significant wealth of Sants Gurinder and Rajinder has a simple explanation. They used their influence as gurus to influence family members and followers to give them money.

Hi j and Fairbanks. If we look at the recent history of these gurus's and their lineage, they, for the most part, were retired and collecting a pension when they were assigned the gaddi. Sawan Singh cont'd to work as an Engineer when he was made the guru by Jaimal Singh, then retired a few years later.

The kicker here is when Charan Singh became the head (35 years old), he still had young children and nowhere near being retired. So the ancestral farmlands were considered his source of income. I believe he made a point to go to the farms in Sirsa regularly to oversee things, if you can call it that.

Now it was GSD's turn (36 years old), same problem. This time, there's no farm to call his own. So he's got to feed his family and take care of things at RSSB. He was not even close to being a rich man back then. He was working as a sales/account manager for a satsangi Sindhi owned watch company. He was not a "businessman" as the websites say. Looks like he became one after the gaddi.

So most saints have worked while they were guru's. Kabir, Paltu, etc. So nothing new there. I've worked all my life and don't fly around in helicopters or anything remotely like that. Nor are my kids on the richest top 100 in India, neither is anyone doing this, unless you're Amy's Foods...

All this happened after he became guru. Not to single out Rajinder, GSD, or any other guru, but if you look at the vast majority of these guru's, they all became wealthy, not middle class wealthy, but obscenely wealthy, AFTER they became guru's. Maybe Shivinder Singh would have been the exception to this, if his brother Malvinder hadn't spilled the beans...

"I read this over on the RS studies group and it was pretty funny:
Sant Mat 1.0: The guru will come for you at the time of death.
Sant Mat 2.0: The guru will threaten you with death.
- rottensalami

you could add:
Sant Mat 3.0: There is no death

I know someone who did business with Mac Duggal. He wasn't happy with the quality of the stock he sent him and asked Rajindar to step in and sort it out. Nothing got sorted.
My friend is of the opinion that they are partners in the business.

If that is the case, it would explain the wealth. He might be a sleeping partner,
or a "meditating partner" and living off this share of the profits

I don't know - just saying

"you could add:
Sant Mat 3.0: There is no death"

If they start assassinating witnesses you'll have to change this.

"Meditating partner", silent partner. That probably is a good description Osho. He's also listed with the job title of "manager." THANKS FOR THE LINKS J! No unexplainable mystery money coming out of thin air then. Not a matter of benjamins being printed in somebody's basement. Not a matter of dollars taken out of the satsang piggy bank to buy cars, a home and to put kids through college. Looks like evidence of income being generated by not just one but two different companies. The two family businesses does explain Rajinder's wealth. Whatever the details, it is no doubt a sweet deal.

It's also great we get to learn a little about this brother of the guru.

oh really. They are great people that is why they beg for/ dream for/ fantasize for visas/ citizenship of developed nations.

Vinny, I'm trying to reverse the trend. I applied for an Indian OCI card and received it in June. I'd love to live there.

Fairbanks, I don't really any of here really knows the net worth of Rajinder or Gurinder, or the full story of how they accrued their wealth.

I consider myself sort of middle of the road on the Gurinder issue. That is, I don't think there's direct evidence to say he's the ringleader of the money scandal. But I also don't side with those who say "there's nothing to see here."

As for Rajinder, I would be suspicious of anyone who 30 years ago took on a full-time job as an ostensibly non-paid teacher, and somehow became a millionaire in his (very) spare time. I have to say also I have issues with the Kirpal line that lead me to have less than perfect faith in its honesty.

I have no idea if either guru is taking money from the sangat. Both RSSB and SOS initiates take it as an article of faith that their guru would never do such a thing. I'm not so sure. Since SOS is classified as a religious non-profit, their financial records are hidden from the public eye. The same is true for RSSB.

I don't think we really don't know anything for sure about how Charan and Sawan became wealthy. Maybe I'm wrong about that, and if so I'm open to someone correcting me. But somehow, Sawan went from being an Indian Army engineer to controlling a wealthy family dynasty that owned considerable real estate.

As Amar pointed out above, many of the gurus somehow became quite wealthy AFTER they became guru. I think it's definitely something to look at.

Hi Amar. Regarding income from ancestral farmlands of Charan Singh in Sirsa. Has anybody been there and seen those farmlands. Well, I had been there in Sirsa to his farmlands in the decade of 60s. I remember the farmland was just a small piece of land and I don’t think it was big enough to produce income for his living or maybe he was having some other land as well. Even as a lawyer Charan Singh did not earn any money.

GSD had been working in Malaga drawing a salary of 150,000 Pesetas ( Approx. 900 Euros)with Hiroo Balani whose son Jack Balani is the representative of RSSB in Spain.
So, these Masters live on their own income are just Stories.

Juan, you might be right there. I heard Charan Singh's son, by the 80s, had increased the farmland under their control substantially. I know that sevadars used to go in large groups to help cultivate the farms and bring back truckloads of vegetables to the dera. Not sure what's happening now.

I don't know about GSDs income at that time, I'm not privy to that, but if you say that, it's seems like middle class kind of income.

Still goes to show that the wealth came later, once the gaddi was taken on. So I guess one can draw their own conclusions about that. Becomes a slippery slope when you have to start looking at whether too much money is too much money. $100's of millions is a lot of money though.

j - out of curiosity, what's your issue with the Kirpal line's honesty? which guru specifically was dishonest?

Karma King, according to Faqir Chand, which guru was actually being honest?

Amar according to Faqir Chand all gurus were not being forthcoming about everything. He did not say they were dishonest. All he said is they are not telling you everything. Also perhaps because the deciple can’t handle it.
This being said he also strongly suggested that you put full faith in the guru. It’s all in his recorded satsangs.

Hi, Jen from Austin, at what point does "not forthcoming" and "dishonest" become a part of the guru's vocabulary.

I don't see how not being forthcoming to a disciple is helping anyone. If the guru is asked if he knows that he appears or knows what's happening in every disciple's meditation or life experiences, and the guru doesn't deny it, then is that dishonesty, or not being forth coming? He either does or does not know. Faqir Chand said that when he asked Sawan Singh and Charan Singh about this, that they acknowledged this fact but did not want to admit it to the sangat (paraphrasing). So is that not forthcoming, or is it misleading, or is it being dishonest?

Just my take on it.

"j - out of curiosity, what's your issue with the Kirpal line's honesty? which guru specifically was dishonest?"

Some of the issues I have with the Kirpal line:

1) I don't believe Kirpal's succession stories. Kirpal alleges that he was the rightful successor and that Jagat Singh was placed as successor in a power play by certain people at Beas. I don't think there's any evidence to support this as being true. Nor do I believe that Kirpal's story that Sawan appointed him satguru and blessed him starting his own sangat. Again, no evidence.
2) Kirpal made countless bold claims about his personal abilities, prowess, accomplishments, spiritual powers. Kirpal's boasting puts him in stark distinction from gurus of the beas line.
3) Kirpal's claim - - the centerpiece of his marketing -- that he could deliver spiritual experiences to anyone who accepted his initiation? It doesn't seem to be true. There have been people who claim they received unusual experiences. Most, however, did not. To those who did not, Kirpal was on record for calling them "liars." One such disappointed person ended up killing himself (this is a story related by a Kirpal initiate who witnessed this happening; he deleted it from his blog when I pointed out that it put Kirpal in a bad light).
4) Kirpal assured his followers that he'd never appoint a family member his successor. But he did anyway. (Darshan Singh)
5. Kirpal's extreme advice, though not directly related to honesty, indicates he really didn't consider himself Sawan's successor as much as a kind of free agent guru. Extreme advice such as telling the sangat they should never take painkillers of any kind, even if they were dying of cancer. Never touching other people, never looking in other people's eyes. Such stuff has never been a part of sant mat.
6. Darshan Singh carried on his father's tradition of saying he was the real deal because only his initiations could provide instant spiritual experiences.
7. Rajinder Singh also makes that claim of spiritual mojo upon initiation. It's a come-on, and it was never a part of sant mat before Kirpal Singh said it was.
8. Rajinder Singh's scheme to get initiates to buy up one of his ponderous books so that he could say it was a "best seller" on Amazon. Not honest.

Faqir Chand:
"Now, after having a long experience of my life, I feel that most of the past mahatmas and the present gurus by keeping the secret Truth unrevealed / undisclosed have been unfair to the public and have often exploited them.
"They have taken undue advantage of the ignorance of the people. They have built their own big buildings. They have made air conditioned rooms for themselves.
"These gurus enjoy themselves and the poor people being ignorant give their hard earned money to thse [sic] gurus at the cost of their comforts and those of their children. I do not deny I receive donations, but I personally do not use even a single penny out of these donations." (The Unknowing Sage pp 112-113)

Not forthcoming, yes. Also exploit and take undue advantage of. Is he saying that the only guru you can trust is one who doesn't enjoy comfort?

Amar if you are really interested in Faqir Chand I suggest you listen to his recorded satsangs which were in London. About 5 of them are available online.
By “not forthcoming” he is referring to the fact that the Gurus don’t tell you everything you need to know. To some extent this has to do with the fact that the Deciple at that level does not and cannot understand fully. Similar to a parent who does not disclose everything to a small child who cannot understand at the level of the parent. In Faqir chands satsangs he says that “who can blame the guru for not being forthcoming the deciples are not able to understand”
Now With regards to the guru appearing I’m sorry but I have never heard any guru say or take credit for any appearances. Just last month in the q and a Chinese man went on and on about seeing Babaji appear in the hospital and Babaji told him it’s all your faith that caused this. And this is just one recent example but there are many such incidences between great master, Hazur and Babaji.

anami, this is what he refers to about the living in comfort. You quoted it yourself above by FC:
"...These gurus enjoy themselves and the poor people being ignorant give their hard earned money to thse [sic] gurus at the cost of their comforts and those of their children."

He's saying these guru's live in ac houses built on the donations of the sangat/followers. He was pretty ballsy to throw that kind of stuff out there. Takes a lot of guts and belief in the truth to say that. Would have loved to have him in his prime in today's times...

Amar, WHY do people do that, both the very poor and the very rich?

All eyes are on these gurus, nobody seems to be interested in the motives of those who knock at their doors and beg to accept their wealth, small from the poor and huge from the rich.

If people would fire their own ovens and make their own bread, what would be the need of the backer?!

No animal transforms the responsibility for his own welfare on another animal.

With the birth and growth of CULTURE men has lost more and more of his natural freedom and indepedence.

Humans have created an world where OTHERS are made responsible for their material, mental and even spiritual welfare..... How often we use emotional blackmail to have our wishes fullfilled …"IF you realy loved me, you would …"

So we we created our own gods made them responsible for what we would have to do ourselves.

I would i knew how how to turn the tide ….. if only for my self.

Hi um. We respect teachers, leaders, gurus and elders. Why? Because they bring a different perspective than ours. They force us to think outside of our programming or long held beliefs. They try to awaken us to a reality that we can't see. That's it.

Human nature, ignorance and opportunistic individuals take advantage of this and we get sucked into the guru equation by herd mentality, built up bullshit stories and the reliance of us needing to be told what to do. It happens to the best of us, but we survive, realize the situation, and move on.

I know, Jen from Austin. We're on the same page there, but I wondered if anyone would disagree. It stands to reason, if you've gone beyond the material, what comforts would you need but the most basic?

I love Nisargadatta Maharaj. He did not make himself a Guru. He said that he does not want to play the Guru game.
He did not built fancy deras, went places or rode expensive cars to attract disciples. He made his own living and died a poor man.
He only gave talks only to people who came to his very modest house in Mumbai. He did not create a gaddi nor did he not appoint any successor
He lived and died a very ordinary man..

"a Chinese man went on and on about seeing Babaji appear in the hospital and Babaji told him it’s all your faith that caused this."

Austin Jen, the question that needs to be asked is why do these gurus seek to have faith directed toward them? No random Chinese person would have faith in Gurinder had he not spent a great deal of time, money and effort to make it happen. As I say over and over and over, the man has a publishing house that prints books with his own photo, and the caption under the photo is "perfect living master." Then inside the book it describes a master as god. In other words, he calls himself god.

Essentially none of these mystical guru sightings are organic. It almost exclusively happens to those who've already spent a considerable amount of time in the cult. The very small amount of these experiences that aren't from already inside the cult are extremely dubious, such as the famous story of Dr Johnson's homeboy seeing flying turbans.

Jesse your thinking and my thinking is very different so I will refrain from answering your question as my answer will never sit well with you. So no point. And moreover your were quite rude in your previous responses to me which I don’t appreciate. Have a good one

Its a little difficult to absorb didigest tthe irony the paradox that goes with the Perfect Spiritual Masters of recent times where wealth, in extreme and the obscene wealth ( of a few) got wedded or made to wed with extreme sprituality - culminating into Godliness.

The poor and helpless, we stand confounded confused when inner access to Him is infintely linited to a very few.

Oh God!
You are all strange!

I'm rude to literally everybody, Austin Jen.

So far you're proselytizing for a guru who calls himself god, which is whatever. But the situation you describe of Chinese people seeing his astral form is a bit misleading to anyone who is aware of these cults and not still mesmerized by them. Unless you're claiming the Chinese guy wasn't already a disciple.

Let's just say that the public status elevation of the godman and the subsequent "random' experiences that people have seeing his form in their meditation isn't accidental.

Amar, BEFORE.... respecting elders, teachers and guru´s, there is an motivation inside a person that moves him to go to and consult these elders etc.

That motivation hardly ever gets researched, questioned etc. … so, yes, if you want to master an sarod, you have to find an teacher and look upon him as you described. The question is however "why would one want to master a sarod"

As long as we talk about things of this visible world these answers about motivation might be easily found but when we start to talk about the more abstract things, it will be more difficult.

I wonder if people had never heard about God etc in their childhood, they later would have any interest in researching it. I remember Chatan often questioning people who came to ask for initiation, whether they were sent by their aunt, mother or somebody else. Most Satsangi's as I know them in one way or another are "selling" sant mat to their environment as the ultimate best thing to aquire…. reason for Charan to react in that way.

In Christion monasteries, the novices have to go through a proces of one or two years to find out if their call from within, is genuine or not. Sant mat in a way is also an monastic way of life.

Then the question arises as how religions, spiritual movements came to be and what they are. What human questions do they answer ...or … create!! Charan often said to westerners.."it is that you bring it up otherwise I would have no knowledge about these matters"
so again … if there was not so much cultural and social attention for these matters one could seriously doubt if the masses would know or have any interest in it at all.

As I wrote in the other message culture is nothing else that an very complicate process of "outsourcing of personal responsibilities". By stopping making ones own bread, some personal time becomes available, but at the same time we become dependend on the backer etc for our food. In the end we loose almost all our natural freedom to others.

Guru's what do they DO!!

One can describe what one sees, hears and read about them but then the question still remains what do they DO.!!

All living creatures are born with whatever is needed to keep themselves alive, there is no reason what so ever, to think that humans are different and do need the help of others.

Questions to understand ourselves and the world around us are created by us and we can only answer those questions ourselves and not by outsourcing the quest to others.

So one could ask oneself .. why am i so interested in the financial affairs of this guru, etc
Trying to answer that question brings much more than discussing it with others. The torch is in the hand of somebody that is motivate to shine light on a subject … it is that motivation that matters.

Jesse, all religions and spiritual movements start out with an so called inner experience.

In some of these experiences the persons are ordered to do certain things. In others these experiences are so impressive that they become life altering as one can read from people having NDE's. They are the ones that based upon their experiences life should be understood in an particular way, different from what we do based upon how the world appears to us through the senses and understood by the mind.

Some of these people which have these inner experiences, develop the desire to find ways so that others too can have these experiences. How? By developing techniques of manipulating the body/brain.

If one doesn't have these experiences one has to have faith or believe. It is found in all religions and mystic movements, that having a strong faith, leads to all sorts of experiences.
Brought before the mystic they all, without exception state... that your faith has saved you.

I do understand that the quality of these original experiences is such that it is almost impossible to ignore. Think of the persons who hear voices that commands them ta act in a certain way... what to think if these experiences are also visible etc.

So, yes, I do believe these persons that are at the root of an spiritual movement, later religion, had these impressive experiences, and were ordered in one way or another from within to start an movement etc.

The only thing I add to it is … that we only have the word of these persons, for us their experiences are nothing more than "hear -say" upon which the movement starts out. And If there is an source to these experiences, out side the person having them, history never relates that such a source manifested itself to the ret of humanity telling them to heed the words of the mystic.

Experiences are like dreams, they appear inside a person but cannot be shared.

We cannot change for the "better" … there is no better.

things are what they are
but seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented, talked about etc.

crows are born that way, live and experience as crows and die .. that is all there is.

"Jesse, all religions and spiritual movements start out with an so called inner experience."

Not christianity or judaism. Nobody knows the origins of sanatan dharma or hinduism, but I'm not quite sure that the remnant parts of the Vedas are about inner experiences at all. Much of those texts seem to focus on external forces of nature. Not until millennia later did a meditative philosophy get extracted from the original Vedas.

"If one doesn't have these experiences one has to have faith or believe. It is found in all religions and mystic movements, that having a strong faith, leads to all sorts of experiences.
Brought before the mystic they all, without exception state... that your faith has saved you."

Satsangis will be satgangis I guess. Your religion says that all religions are about inner experiences and that all gurus and saints are the same. Other religions, when speaking for themselves, disagree with the radha soami usurpation of their native ways. According to a lot of Jews and Christians, Moses saw a physical burning bush that talked. Not an astral bush inside his chakras. Let them speak for themselves instead of overlaying your beliefs onto them and you might figure this out. Isn't that superimposition of belief the sort of the "imperialist" or "colonialist" thinking we're all taught to reject?

You're basically repeating the party line that I repeated for 15 years. As I've said before, these modern guru cults are nothing but a mockery of the perennial philosophy. When I said the party line 10 years ago I was wrong. When you say it today you're wrong.

These aren't your ideas. You're reciting.

Jesse all spiritual movements and religions start with a human having inner experiences; no exception! It is even impossible.
If a person speaks about the divine either he has such an experience or he has heard about it.

St John of the cross states that the lord touches somebody in darkness. This divine touch often gets accompagnied by inside or outside fenomena [seeing burning bushes]. Unfortunatly he argues, these fenomena are considered to be the very touch of the divine.

All horses think themselves to be different from donkeys, zebra's etc but they are all anumals.

If you strip a religion from its regional cultural markers what remains is the same.

For me dreams are dreams, unique variations of the same. So are all trees, animals and human beings and all things they have cultural created.

Natural each people will love their own way of preparing food, and what is a pleasure for one is a disgust for another, in the stomach it is the same for all … food.

Some love the uniqueness more than the sameness and the other way around.

Did L Ron Hubbard have an inner spiritual experience, Um?

You're just talking.

Jesse, Christ didn't start, the many branches of christianity we know these days.

The branches are offshoots of offshoots.

This is true for all religions and sects.

Hubard is no exception on the rule

There are no exceptions to the rule.

Without a human being having inner experiences nobody would have the slightest idea of the divine and nobody would talk about the same.

Humans do hear voices, as reported by them.
No reason to doubt what they say about them hearing these voices.
The question is … was there anybody that spoke to them.

In the same way humans, called mystics, have experiences.
Some were ordered to write a book and what was written down was so impressive that there are millions upon millions that talk about it.

Experiences came first, later means were developed to manipulate the body in such an way that the same experiences could be had … call it mind altering drugs avant la lettre.

You're just talking, Um. Talking and reciting. Zero value.

Jesse, years ago I was TALKING to someone and he asked me, where did you read this. First i didn´t understand him but when he asked from which writer it came what I just said i understood what he meant … Well, I said, I just recite from my own book.

Somebody has to be the first.

Value, is attached to something, it is a gift of the beholder.
Nothing has value of its own.

You are free to evaluate the world as you deem fit … it doesn't matter but to you.

um, Jesse, interesting points. What if the person who had these experiences, not doubting they had them, but what if they were just a one off? Pick a saint, mystic, prophet, whoever. Just because they experiences it, doesn't mean anything but to them. How is it that they have "a calling" to preach this stuff?

Followers attribute all sorts of things to these individuals and everyone puts their own masala on it and takes a bite. Jesus didn't have a "church", nor bishops, or anything else, all this came later. No one knows what he really stood for or said, really.

My point is that these people invariably attract others and that's when things get watered down and the real essence of the thought is lost. Soami Ji at his own time of death muddied the waters when he said let Saligram contiue with his Radha Soami mat along with his own sant mat. He created a division himself even before he died.

Anyways, we all have an interpretation of these things based on our bias that we come from/indoctrinated in.

um, you wrote Somebody has to be the first.

I'd rather say everyone has to be the first. Individually, you write/live your own /experience/story.

Amar, there are many people all over the world and at all times who hear voices.

Any psychiatrist or psychologist knows how difficult it is to withstand an commanding interior voice.

We all know how difficult it is to withstand our own thoughts, cravings, emotions etc Who is able to "will" positive emotions or to discard the negative rising to the surface.

We also know about the impression NDE's make upon a person and how these experiences alter their live.

Well, what to think of a human being who recounts later that he had the vision of an arch angel; the very angel that commanded him to write a book.

I guess that it is sheer impossible not to be overwhelmed and act on the command.

The point that a make and make again, is that the very fact that one hears voices does mean that there is a speaker or upon seeing a gabriel, that there is a gabriel.

Later we are preseten with what these people tell us … we HEAR what they SAY and we all evaluate what we hear as we deem fit. Instead of accepting different evaluations as expressions of ourselves, often these evaluations are attributed, outsourced to the speaker and the fighting starts.

Apart from all this fighting about who said what etc, one could also ask oneselve why am i interested in what others have to say about life .. as far as practical things is concerned it is a wise thing to do but other wise it easily becomes a waste of time. Everybody has to decide for himself what he wants to do with the gift of being alove, without the need of first finding out and arguing with others that there is a "giver of life".

Yes, you live your life, nobody can do it for you, but you will die, like all of us as you were born.
Nothing changes.

Nothing wrong with following a guru .. if that is what one wants.. well go for it.
It is not a must we all are free to spent our love, attention, respect etc as we deem fit.
It is like an heritage we can spent it as we like

The issue with RSSB or in fact any "ism" or religion is this;

Once you "buy into" the core beliefs, you start to interpret life based on those beliefs and here's the reason why this is so dangerous:

You don't even know you're doing it.

Here's an example.

RSSB teachings state that the founder of every religion had a "mystical experience" then slowly the real teachings were lost.

This is simply, if you excuse my French, "bullshit".
It is not factually true. However, it APPEARS to be true to you if you were once a RSSB follower.

You don't even realize you are just towing the party line. You think its a "fact"

The truth is Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Krishna. Mohammed, Nanak etc
Were not 'perfect masters" by any stretch of the imagination and they were not giving out RSSB teachings.

None of them "left their body" using the "five holy names" and went to "sach khand"

In fact there are no "five holy names"
There are only two : "fu*?ing bullshit"

If you repeat the two holy names ten thousand times you will become enlightened or go insane.

Joking aside, the notion that there are "inner regions" and "my soul' has to go there in order to merge with a sat purush or God is just all a made up " story"

The truth is those people I mentioned above were very different and all teaching hugely different things not even remotely connected to RSSB.

Some of them may not even have existed.

The point us that they were not "perfect living masters" giving out the RSSB teachings

Once you drop those assumptions then you realise you have been living in a bubble.

One can not just shut his eyes to the visions, drama, sounds etc that a few encounter while in sleep or meditation or even in real time. including by GIHFs. And they become live witnesses, goad us to follow same to replay same within us.

But the precondition as laid out by them so as to qualify for that seems to have been breached more by Them tthan Their mostly naive and Poor sheeps following them lamely , taking Their spoken words as solemn commands and that has created some suspicion.

Still some or all of World. seems to me now a magic driven fantasy with Logics standing on crutches as I find in the arguments laid out before by the Believers and I helplessly conclude this.

As the clear answers to a Saints-world and intentions or plans are not forthcoming within the realm of feeble mind power.

osho, any uniqueness is just an variation of the same.

The unique doesn't exist, sameness does.

It is a matter of the human brain or mind.

We cannot name uniqueness only sameness, belonging to one and the same collection.

It has nothing to do with dogmas of anybody, it is a matter of concepts/language.

All cars are cars, irrespective of the different shapes they appear or are seen.

I was at Haynes Park yesterday. Very interesting Q&A.
GSD claims no special powers.
He specifically emphasised that he has no special powers to change karmas or give you special grace to meditate. “You have to do whatever you choose”
“The guru is only a guide and a teacher”

He also said
“I can easily say that everything will be taken care of...., but that is false consolation”

I posed a specific question about “nishkaam” or desirelessness.

We go to work, the expectation is the pay check.
The meditation becomes the same.
The paycheck is the ticket to sach khand.
But that is not the deal.
God is not for sale.
The disciple is trying to “buy” god with the currency of meditation

He said “love doesn’t have any demands and expectations. Love only knows how to give”

If you ask for something, you’re still trying to do s business deal

@Osho “The guru is only a guide and a teacher”

Hmm, he might be saying that now, but that is not what the books say though, and the reason for initiation. Otherwise what is the point in getting 'initiated'? You can find the 5 names yourself, or choose any mantra without the need for any 'master'.

Sounds like he's trying to walk everything back because he knows the game is up.

“I can easily say that everything will be taken care of...., but that is false consolation”

Okay, so what happens if 'everything isn't taken of'? It's all vague nonsense

Osho, talking about questions to ask when you happen to go there again.

Why do you go there?
Why does he sits there?
How is your going related to his sitting there?

We can only love what we know of experience mentally
Who or what to love?

Guides show us a path from A to B.
What is the path he guides on?
What is the goal B?
How does that goal relates to our being here?

Teachers and students have a common interest.
What is that interest?
What qualifies him as teacher?
What qualifies you as student?

Why do you go there?
Why does he sits there?
What is the relation between his sitting there and you going there?

Just some simple questions, many of these simple questions are possible.

The tale that was told by previous teachers, explained the position of both the teacher and the student in terms of the sheperd tale.

If that tale is is no longer valid, there must be a new tale as ALL games have to be played by the rules.

So what does the game that is to be payed according him looks like and what is everybody's role in the play.

"You" stands for you or anybody else.

@ Daljit.
You wrote:
Yes he did. He himself decided to act as guru.

He definitely played that game. I can provide evidence if you require it.

That much is correct and true. But he became furious and then went into a sulk of silence for two days when someone called his bluff and said: “if you are ‘nothing’ why don't you shut up then? Why say anything?”

He encouraged people to print books of his translated teachings. And successors have appeared after his death, just as he appeared after the death of his guru.

That is also true. So why do you say you love him, if he was ordinary? Isn't it because of the written record of him 'playing' the role of guru?

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