Raids of Indian authorities circle closer to RSSB guru

Following up on my post earlier today about raids by the Enforcement Directorate, which enforces economic laws and fights economic crime in India,  a new story in the Indian financial press indicates that the raids are not only on Malvinder and Shivinder Singh, but on others.

One of those others is Sunil Godhwani, a close associate of Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas. Dhillon had Godhwani installed as the Managing Director and then Chairman of Religare, a company once controlled by the Singh brothers, who are related to the guru.

A criminal complaint filed by Malvinder alleges that Godhwani then conspired to fraudulently funnel money from Religare into the pockets of the RSSB guru, his family, and close associates. Separately, the new board of Religare filed a complaint with the Economic Offences Wing of the Delhi police.

I shared a link to that complaint in "Family of RSSB guru at risk of charges of criminal conspiracy." That possibility looks more likely in light of today's Business Standard story that somebody shared a link to in a comment. Here's the start of the story.
Download ED raids multiple locations linked to ex-Religare promoters in PMLA case | Business Standard News

The Enforcement Directorate on Thursday raided multiple premises linked to erstwhile Religare promoters, brothers Malvinder Mohan Singh and Shivinder Mohan Singh, and others in connection with a money laundering case, agency officials said.

They said the raids were conducted at seven locations in Delhi including those connected to the Singh brothers, ex-CMD of Religare Enterprises Ltd (REL) Sunil Godhwani, REL executives N K Ghoshal, Hemant Dhingra after an Enforcement Case Information Case (ECIR), the police equivalent of a case, was filed by the agency.

The ECIR has been filed under criminal sections of the Prevention of Money Laundering Act (PMLA) after taking cognisance of a Delhi Police Economic Offences Wing (EOW) complaint filed in December last year.

REL's subsidiary Religare Finvest (RFL) had filed the complaint with the EoW, alleging fraud and misappropriation of funds to the tune ofRs740 crore and had named the Singh brothers and others.

On their part, the Singh brothers had blamed Godhwani for the troubles faced by the group.

Seemingly one of the questions Indian authorities are seeking answers to is why Godhwani funneled money to shell companies controlled at the time by members of the Dhillon family and their associates, which apparently then was used to buy real estate by the Dhillons.

See my March blog post, "RSSB insider Sunil Godhwani charged with criminal conspiracy." Here's the last paragraph of that post.

Thus it sure seems like the Dhillon family is facing some additional legal challenges. They were owners of shell companies mentioned in the Religare criminal conspiracy complaint as having participated in the fraud, and the Dhillons also were recipients of the fraudulently obtained money.

 

Comments

[Arjuna]

Hello Big Man! Happy Birthday and yes I know you hate people saying this.

Show me some magic by getting out of this mess. Or show me the reason why ...

[Vinny]

Arseholes will now say, there is no financial crime, no financial criminals, there is only one. The one posing as crime, criminals and victims.

[Johnny]

Here is the link to the criminal complaint by Malvinder Singh against Dhillon family and others:
https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/malav-eow-criminal-complaint.pdf

Interesting that they didn't black out contact information, so you can find Gurinder Singh Dhillon (aka Babaji)'s email address in here, if you're interested in contacting him.

[j]

On the topic of generous loans: Joe Biden is under fire because of loans his brother received 40 years ago.
https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/08/02/joe-bidens-brother-scored-generous-loans-during-banking-committee-tenure/

The amount of these loans is quite paltry next to what the guru's family managed to secure by the help of high placed corporate initiates, apparently without collateral.

Gurinder's vanilla boy scout response (with or without the "entertainment" qualifier) irritates me. Court findings do name him as having received some monies from these loans, and the lawsuit by the filmmaker that Gurinder borrowed a million dollars seems credible. For Gurinder to say "I just have some money my parents left me" seems an evasion, to put it kindly.

[Hiti]

j, I attended the first day of the Petaluma sessions earlier this week, and frankly everything Gurinder said irritated me. He was just constantly snapping back at people, not being compassionate when people had genuine issues, interrupting people while they were speaking, being sarcastic, egotistical, etc. It's actually quite obvious that he is a fraud, I don't know why people don't see it. RSSB is a cult, let's call it what it is.

[Nancy]

J he clearly said he has not taken anything from anyone. Now whether that irritates you or confuses you that’s your choice. Your hearing a second hand account. I was there in the audience and I am satisfied with his answer. Let’s see how this whole thing unfolds.

[Brian Hines]

Nancy, the RSSB guru has been accused of financial fraud in a criminal complaint. What do you expect Dhillon to say? "I"m guilty" seems exceedingly unlikely. Of course he is going to deny wrongdoing. That's what his attorneys would require that he say.

[Nancy]

Brian for months you have blogged that he has not said anything. You even have a blog titled that the guru should respond to allegations and now that he does this is what you say?? Why even ask for a comment then? Just make up your own mind right? You were never interested in a comment you just want to make your blog more entertaining. Haha success Brian Hines your blog is entertainment.

[Brian Hines]

Nancy, to put it bluntly, Gurinder Singh Dhillon lied at the Petaluma bhandara. He definitely has gotten money from sources other than his parents. Lots of it. Here's some links that prove me right, and the RSSB guru wrong.

You're very trusting. Also, gullible. Here's part of the truth about how Dhillon got so much money.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/05/fortis-seeking-money-that-ended-up-with-the-dhillon-family.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/03/rssb-guru-owes-almost-800-million-in-fraudulent-loans.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/12/singh-brothers-get-into-fight-over-loans-to-rssb-guru-and-his-family.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/06/delhi-high-court-orders-recovery-of-money-from-rssb-guru-and-his-family.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/06/malvinder-singhs-message-to-the-rssb-guru-is-moving.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2018/08/bloomberg-story-shows-gurinder-singh-dhillons-shady-business-dealings.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/06/rssb-guru-identified-as-beneficiary-of-fraudulent-funds.html

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/12/radha-soami-satsang-beas-guru-makes-250-million.html

[Nancy]

Yes Brian I am trusting. That’s a positive trait. Thank you for the compliment. I fully trust the Guru you can trust the media. Have a good one.

[Blogger Brian]

So Nancy, you must be a fast reader. What did you think of the posts I shared? They sure undermine the guru’s credibility, don’t they? Maybe it’s time for RSSB devotees to find an honest guru.

[Amar]

Nancy, you owe it yourself to at least read the links. They are not made up, they are in the public domain, especially the court order naming the Dhillons and others. If his name has been listed to pay back money, then he has borrowed it. Very simple to understand.

So if he said he only got money from his parents, then why would he have to pay money back, ordered by the court? His answer doesn't jive with the court order. Is the court lying? Baba Ji hasn't appealed, but been ordered to pay.

Very simple to see that what he said isn't accurate.

[Mary Thomas]

Just a friendly word of warning which you are free to accept or dismiss and that is, only trust a guru who practices what they preach or you will end up with a Sai Baba fondling your genitals if you are a young man, a Rajneesh with a fleet of 75 Rolls Royce's, an Osho having sex with his femail disciples or a Guru Maharaji with a pechant for wearing diamond rings, just to mention a few that have exploited their disciples spiritually, financially and sexually. Am not speaking hypothetically, have been there myself many years ago with a certain guru. Fortunately, someone warned me in time.
Even Great Master advised leaving the company of a guru who does not practice what he preaches.
No spiritual Master is interested in acquiring vast wealth, needless to add by putting patient's lives at risk selling dodgy drugs and if people believe Gurinder is God incarnate then it's contradictory to assume he knew nothing about it and is innocent.
These are no light concerns, dismissing them as media lies is a dangerous assumption. At least carefully and methodically investigate the cold, hard facts in their entirety in a dispassionate, objective manner. Trust without discernment or common sense is blind and dangerous, one inevitably ends up in the proverbial ditch if one takes that route. I find it very sad and rather tragic when sincere seekers are duped, it often leaves deep wounds of trust betrayed in the psyche.
I was a satsangi myself for over forty years but Gurinder's actions left me no alternative other than to leave his company.
Truth, however bitter is always preferable to a sugar coated lie. As Great Master stated, when a liar and an honest man meet, their relationship snaps and as Brian fearlessly pointed out, Gurinder is lying.
No one is being slanderous or malicious, quite the contrary, they are providing a valuable, selfless service in warning disciples that they are being duped. The vitriolic denials and reactions to the facts so impartially presented on this site are completely unnecessary. Everyone is free to make up their own mind after examining the evidence but at least have the courtesy and patience to examine the meticulously and carefully researched facts presented otherwise it's subjective bias.

[Nancy]

Amar and Brian I have read everything and am very well versed with all the media reports. I also know the source of all these reports. In fact I reckon that I know more about it than you do. So again I will say I trust my master and you can trust the media. Let’s leave it at that.

[Brian Hines]

Nancy, the source of the report about the High Court of Delhi freezing the assets of the Dhillon family, so those assets can be sold, is... the High Court of Delhi.

So do you really believe the High Court's ruling, as described by the story in this blog post I shared today, is "fake news"? If so, you really have gone down the religious rabbit hole. Have a read. It might help you climb out of the hole a little ways.

https://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2019/08/rssb-guru-appears-to-have-lied-about-his-financial-problems.html

[Amar]

Mary Thmas, well said. Only Thomas investigating and reading these things can one at least consider the possibility. You owe it to yourself to digest the info and then make up your mind after that.

[Nancy]

Brian the source of the report is Malvinder. Quote from the order

“The order comes following Malvinder Singh compliance that he can only reimburse $500 million (Rs 3472 crore) arbitration order against them, provided he can recover the money owed to him by RSSB chief and family.

If you believe him and not the master then that’s your choice. Like I said to J let’s wait and see what unfolds. No need to keep arguing with me. Enjoy your day.

[Brian Hines]

Nancy, do you really believe the High Court of Delhi would approve an order that freezes the RSSB guru's assets so they can be sold to pay part, or all, of what Malvinder Singh owes in the Daiichi settlement if the guru hadn't gotten money from Malvinder that hadn't been paid back?

The guru refused to pay Malvinder, so now a court is ordering the guru to do what he wouldn't do voluntarily: pay his debts. So this shows that the RSSB guru was lying when he said he'd never gotten money from anyone but his parents.

Also, keep in mind that the massive amount of money loaned to the RSSB guru by Malvinder is only one aspect of the financial scandal.

The other aspect is vast amounts of money that were siphoned out of a public company, Religare, and into the pockets of the RSSB guru and his family. That's a whole other subject, which puts Dhillon at considerable legal peril.

[Neha]

Nancy, Malvinder is speaking under oath. Gurinder is simply talking on a stage.

[Sirika]

Nancy,

You said "I reckon that I know more about it than you do". Would you mind sharing what you know? Please do share for the sake of satsangis who are seriously considering renouncing the path (myself included) based on the overwhelming evidence against the Dhillon family.

Thank you,
Sirika

[Dungeness]

The guru refused to pay Malvinder, so now a court is ordering the guru to do what he wouldn't do voluntarily: pay his debts. So this shows that the RSSB guru was lying when he said he'd never gotten money from anyone but his parents.

Did the order specify GSD or entities controlled by the Dhillons?

GSD is either personally liable (or in concert with other Dhillon
family members) for repayment. But, if the latter, without further
proof or an individual indictment, you can't assert he was lying
about the source of his money

The other aspect is vast amounts of money that were siphoned out of a public company, Religare, and into the pockets of the RSSB guru and his family.

Ah, good, the pockets have expanded. Shame on the actual
perp's... all or part.

[Nancy]

Sirika
Give me your details I will talk to you offline.

[Jesse]

Nancy
Give me your details I will mock your religious cult offline.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Nancy
You wrote
"Amar and Brian I have read everything and am very well versed with all the media reports. I also know the source of all these reports. In fact I reckon that I know more about it than you do. So again I will say I trust my master and you can trust the media. Let’s leave it at that."

See this is what I mean by masturbation. You aren't willing to offer any verifiable information. What you claim to know isn't transferable. You are just claiming higher knowledge without evidence. Why make such claims? You have no evidence, nothing to enlighten anyone. So that's mental masturbation. It might make you feel better but adds nothing to the discussion. It enlightens no one.

All we have, Nancy, are facts that can be verified, in the one side, and the other side claims from people who actually weren't there and don't know.

Unless you are on the board of directors of Modland Wears, Best Healthcare or Fern Healthcare, or a member of the Securities and Exchange Board of India, or an investigator working for the Serious Crimes division of the Delhi police, or a judge on the High Court of Delhi, then, sorry to say, no you do not know.

And by the way, we have the recorded and published investigations, audits and judgments of those listed above.

You might know Baba Ji personally, but since he is now lying, he's not a good witness.

[Sirika]

Nancy,

If you prefer to talk offline, you can email me at [email protected].

Regards,
Sirika

[Nancy]

Jesse no need you are doing a great job mocking everything and everyone here.👍🏻

[Nancy]

Neha
If you believe Malvinder that’s your choice to make. He has numerous times been caught in lies. Little reading up will show you what you need to know. But choice is yours believe what you want.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You asked
"Did the order specify GSD or entities controlled by the Dhillons?"

Yes, by name, both.

"RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon, wife Shabnam Dhillon, sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet and daughter-in-law Nayan Tara Dhillon are among the 56 entities from whom Delhi HC has ordered recovery of monies Singh brothers-Malvinder & Shivinder-owe to Daiichi. Money will also be recovered from former Religare chief Sunil Godhwani and brother Sanjay Godhwani, according to the Delhi HC order."
.....
" Besides the Dhillon family, the Delhi HC is issuing 'garnishee orders' against several Dhillon and RSSB associates' companies, including Prius Real Estate, Addon Realty, Payne Realtors SGGD Projects, Luminous Holding. A garnishee order is an order against a third party to recover money to settle a debt or dues.

Garnishee order prevents these entities from alienating any assets. The dues will now be paid to Delhi HC instead of Singh brothers and their entities to whom it is owed."

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html

[Jesse]

"you are doing a great job mocking everything and everyone here.👍🏻"

Finally I get credit for my hard work. I know I make it look like play, but it really is blood, sweat, and tears I put into this mockery.

Thank you, Nancy

[Dungeness]

"Did the order specify GSD or entities controlled by the Dhillons?"
Yes, by name, both.

Yes. thank you. My drift was that all of the named
directors are fiscally responsible. Certainly, there's no
discernible reason for their continuing silence and non-
payment.

Until there are criminal indictments or significant proof of
active complicity, however, it's a rush to judgment to
assert GSD knew all along or he "lied" about his sources
of money. As viscerally satisfying and "manifestly proven"
as our hunches seem, they are sometimes wrong.

[Jen]

Just a reminder for you Spence, I think its quite disturbing that you would talk to a female like this "See this is what I mean by masturbation" and "So that's mental masturbation".

Really?! Why this choice of words? I would have found the masturbation comments insulting and you are also criticising someone, read below where it says don't criticise the person. Also, how about trying to be more respectful...

From Brian's post called "Comment respectfully, please"

-- It's boring to insult people in a comment. Don't do it. Stand up for issues, ideas, concepts, and such that you feel need discussing. But don't insult other commenters, or anyone else. Criticize what someone says or does, not the person themselves.

-- In general, be respectful. Be thoughtful. Be reasonable. Be factual. Be open-minded. Be flexible. Understand that we're not out to change minds. My goal for this blog is to give people an opportunity to make up their own minds.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
I'll avoid the term in the future. I understand how you might feel offended by it. But please consider your values if you are not offended by a Guru you once trusted to at least be honest, which is within the capacity of every human being; a Guru who is silent when family has stolen hundreds of millions, and now patients are without care. And dovoted initiates find themselves with a false and lying leader.

My comment about mental masturbation is not the first time I've made it. It stands free of any orientation. It is the process which I defined in full, and not the orientation of any person at all. That you see I it in terms of sexual orientation or power is your own dark projection. Mental masturbation is the process of claiming and basically congratulating oneself for superior understanding but not willing to share the details, to undergo scrutiny, to offer verifiable facts or detailed personal witness.. A process of criticizing others for false understanding without also providing helpful evidence or proof.

You have indulged in false and unfounded bpersonal attacks as well, and I've been the target of that. But to stay on point, we have a Guru, two days ago, who made a baldfaced lie to the Sangat and the world in a matter connected to criminal behavior that has harmed others.He did not address the issue of fraud and theft, in one of the largest in India's financial history, conducted by Satsangis sworn to loyalty to him, and which has thrown distrust into India's efforts to grow, both in business and Healthcare, an international reputation. And this harm has effected the lives of other people.

I thank that is far more of an insult to decent folks.

And while I admire your effort to promote peace, Jen, an effort I share, I refer you to a truthful bumper sticker, when dealing with ongoing criminal behavior.

"Want peace? Work for justice. No justice, no peace."

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness

You wrote

"it's a rush to judgment to assert GSD knew all along or he "lied" about his sources
of money. "

Those are two different things you have connected.

Baba Ji lied when he said the only funds he ever took were from his parents. He, his family and close associates took hundreds of millions of dollars in fraudulent loans which they are delinquent in paying. The high court of Delhi, after due deliberation, found those loans legally binding, and as a result, named Gurinder and 56 others, both delinquent in payment and legally liable for able for payment. The High Court ordered Gurinder and company each by name to pay the court immediately.

So, it is no rush to judgment but a fact that Gurinder and others took hundreds of millions from other innocent people, not his parents, and he hasn't returned that money.

That's just a fact.

His role in the fraud is another matter. We don't know to what extent that he masterminded the fraud, or others did so without his active participation. We do know that nearly a billion dollars have been fraudulently siphoned from public companies by a group of RSSB Satsangis that includes Gurinder, his wife and sons. And that Gurinder, his wife and sons received hundreds of millions of dollars of that money.

So when Baba Ji claims he has not received money from anyone but his now deceased parents, that is false. He might be living a dream, he might be unconscious, but if not, he is lying.

[Arjuna]

# Spencer hello

I don't believe that he got the money from his parents - if so why was he a sales man in Spain and not running a real estate with his fathers money?

Would you become a sales man if your parents have 500 million - or nope

[di]

Nancy,
As Sakira, I am desperately seeking to know more as well. you can communicate offline at [email protected]
Thanks. Di

[Spence Tepper]

Wow, Arjuna, talk about pointing to the obvious truth we all missed.

Thank you!

[Johnny]

Gurinder should be thrown in jail, he has deceived millions of people and stole a lot of money from innocent people.

[Dungeness]

So, it is no rush to judgment but a fact that Gurinder and others took hundreds of millions from other innocent people, not his parents, and he hasn't returned that money

If Petaluma reports are correct, GSD spoke only for himself in identifying
known sources of income, he didn't talk about others in his family or orbit
or who mighta been involved in the intricate web of malfeasance that
occurred.

He may not have known the full details or who exactly was in on the scam.
I know, I know...he's Bernie Madoff with a beard. He hadda to have known
even if he wasn't the mastermind, right? Ya know these things, ya look into
a man's soul and ya know.

There's legitimate frustration with the Dhillon's silence and non-repayment of
family debt but that doesn't make the man a "liar" unless you're doing that
soul travel, X-ray vision kind of thing. Either that or you da man with an ax to
grind.

So when Baba Ji claims he has not received money from anyone but his now deceased parents, that is false. He might be living a dream, he might be unconscious, but if not, he is lying.

Um, what if he was unaware that his account was being padded illegitimately,
Say Godhwani or Shab' or black sheep son had a legit explanation of how well
the real estate biz was doin'. Told him the excess would be gone in a couple of
days to another shell, I mean, I mean... a new venture.

I know, I know... you'd have to believe in unicorns or the innocence of Bernie
Madoff to buy that cockamamie theory.

[Johnny]

In Petaluma, one of the questioners said something about spending time in prison, and GSD interrupted him and said "That's the best place to do meditation". I wonder if that's his own plan.

[OshoRobbins]

Show me a man who has never lied
And I will show you a liar.

Everyone lies.

Anyone who claims not to lie is a liar.

Lying is an inbuilt mechanism for humans. If you count the number of times you tell a lie in a 24 hour period, you will be shocked.

I demonstrated this once to a friend, when we were both in Haynes on a “seva day “

Now I am crap at doing seva, I only went because the guru was there and I might have a chat with him in the mic.

Anyway I went and sat in my car with my friend. A sevadar came and asked why I was sitting in the car. He asked if I had a headache or something.

I said “no, no headache just sitting here”

“But why are you not doing seva?”

“Because I never came to do seva, I came for the evening talk that baba sometimes does and the q&a.”

The sevadar looked at me confused.
Then he reported me to his superior. I then Made a hasty retreat and vanished before the big guy escorted me off the premises.

My point is, lying is normal. It’s very convenient. Kids learn to lie early on.

You’ve got to be foolish if you don’t lie.
It survival 101.

When you speed, you are lying.

When someone asks “ how are you”

You often say “ok” when you mean “terrible”

There is a movie called
“The invention of Lying”
It depicts a world where lying does not exist.

Then one man tells the first ever lie

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You asked
"
Um, what if he was unaware that his account was being padded illegitimate"

He would need to be unaware of all of his financial investments, including his ownership units handed to him by the Singh brothers upon the Sale of Ranbaxy, and his board positions and stock as a major owner in Religare, Religare Finvest and other major corporations.

He lied.

[OshoRobbins]

Was there a post a while ago about lying on a planning application. Calling a building an agricultural building, when really it was going to be used for satsang.
Nobody complained at that time. Nobody said “it’s wrong to lie”

Everyone pretty much said it was necessary and normal.

He tells one lie and you never hear the end of it. Like it’s the crime of the century.

Anyone heard the joke about the bus driver?
He says “I’ve been driving buses for 40 years and never had an accident. I crash one little bus with some children in it and I never hear the end of it”

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Osho.
Your view that lying is something "everybody does" and is therefore acceptable in all and every circumstance reflects an ethic. I interested to hear more about where you learned it? What culture were you raised in?

I take it your parents never taught you to always tell the truth? OT that it is a sin to lie?

Not in your upbringing?

[Dungeness]

He would need to be unaware of all of his financial investments, including his ownership units handed to him by the Singh brothers upon the Sale of Ranbaxy, and his board positions and stock as a major owner in Religare, Religare Finvest and other major corporations.
He LIED.

I'm getting cross-thread whiplash. If this refers to GSD's response "I have some money
from my parents and not from anyone else", I assumed he meant he legitimately
inherited from his parents of course but didn't knowingly accept illicit windfalls from
the shell companies. Presumably some the cash flow was his legitimate earning and
ROI from exec role and/or stock holdings. If that's the case, it wasn't a lie.

[Jesse]

"I take it your parents never taught you to always tell the truth? OT that it is a sin to lie?
Not in your upbringing?"

I know you're not asking me, but as someone who has been around Indians a lot and observing them as if they're a science experiment, I can say that Indians avoid hypocrisy by admitting to moral relativity. Lying is justified in part of the Mahabharat (at least the TV version) because it's said that if your opponent is cheating, you have the right to play by his rules.

Along with that, India is an extremely low trust society. Essentially the polar opposite of something like Sweden, at least when Swedes were still dominant there. You can't naively reveal truths to Indians because you don't know which ones will try to rip you off if you do. Go there some time and you'll pay between double and 10x the price for goods. But if an Indian comes to the west, they will pay the same price as everyone else. And no, it's not about political corruption or poverty. It is prevalent in all classes and professions. Priests, doctors, richshaw drivers all equally attempt to screw each other. Theft, and corruption are everywhere in levels I assume you can't imagine. Lying is necessary for survival there and that mindset doesn't go away when people move.

You can't expect that everyone be equally honest everywhere, especially when the risks of doing so are so different from place to place. Even look at Osho saying how "nobody cared when they lied to get a building permit!" Well, by nobody,I think he's talking about satsangis who are overwhelmingly of not just one national origin, but one culture within that country, and who other states within the union complain about. I actually remember hearing about a building project in Australia or something and only non Indian satsangis seemed uncomfortable with the fact that it was being pushed through using deception.

This is totally off topic, but consider this sort of incompatibility next time you try to moralize about immigration. People are different, and these differences being shoved up against each other for no reason often cause unnecessary conflict.

[Di]

Johnny,
I remember the question about jail. BBji actually said something to the effect that "it is a good place to meditate all day. No one bothers you. Sometimes I wonder if I should consider it for my meditation."

[Gk]

Earlier it was said that gsd would reply at an opportune time, so let's wait for it.

Why did shivi join rssb and later stopped. What facts r being hidden....

Let's not mix rssb and gsd wrongdoings, if any, of course they relate, but one should know to keep them separate, if one got any learnings....

[OshoRobbins]

Your view that lying is something "everybody does" and is therefore acceptable in all and every circumstance reflects an ethic. - Spence.

But, Spence, that was not my statement.
I didn't say that it was acceptable and certainly never said anything about all circumstances.

My point was different. Regardless of upbringing and law, are you saying that people don't tell lies except rarely?

Let's say a child of 7 years has a knife in his hand, you grab the knife and hide it behind you. The child says "I know its behind you"
You going to say "yes you are right, here it is"
If you do, you endanger the child. If you don't, you are lying.

Jesus said "let him without sin cast the first stone". Where has that part of the Jesus teachings gone?

Lying is innate in society. You do it without thinking.

Do the experiment. Write a tick every time you lie. Count the ticks.

Kirpal started the " spiritual diary " .
Nothing spiritual about it really. It was a "moral code" check sheet.

People who did it, had a blank diary in week 1. Then a few entries in week 2. By week 10 their diary states they have 50 failings a day!

Someone asked Kirpal why he was getting worse.

"You're not getting worse" said Kirpal Je Maharaj.
"You're just becoming more aware of your lying, deception etc"

[OshoRobbins]

. Theft, and corruption are everywhere in levels I assume you can't imagine. Lying is necessary for survival there and that mindset doesn't go away when people move. - Jesse writing about India.

Jesse is right. Even though he previously claimed to be always "wrong" he must have been "lying"

The point is extremely valid. Poor people can't afford morals when their survival depends on it.

Its easy to moralise from a distance. If it was YOUR child (not shouting, Jesse) that was going to go hungry because you chose honesty over lying, you would soon change.

I am not justifying it. I am simply stating that circumstances dictate how you are likely to behave.

Let's say you become super honest and your child dies from starvation because you refused to tell lies and was unable to earn enough money.

Are you now in "morality heaven?"
Are you jumping with joy that you passed the test even at the cost of letting your child die?

Would anyone praise that person for his exceptional level of honesty.

Or would you call him an idiot?

Jesse makes another valid point. Once you lie for survival, and do it all the time, it now becomes your new way of living. Even if circumstances change, the lying and corruption now feels "normal"

I remember watching a TV documentary where a group of Indians were caught red-handed bribing an immigration official by handing him the keys to a brand new Mercedes car in exchange for a number of "green cards"
The immigration employee went along with it in order to catch them out.

When confronted, their reply was "but what have we done wrong? This is standard business practice in India. We paid for the green cards, we didn't steal them"

People also lie in business every day.

"It cost me £1000 so at £800 I am already losing £200" when in fact he bought the item for £500."

This never happens? Everyone tells the truth?

Pull the other one, its got bells on it.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"This is totally off topic, but consider this sort of incompatibility next time you try to moralize about immigration. People are different, and these differences being shoved up against each other for no reason often cause unnecessary conflict."

That sword cuts both ways, buddy.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"Presumably some the cash flow was his legitimate earning and
ROI from exec role and/or stock holdings. If that's the case, it wasn't a lie."

No, it would still be a lie. A lie is when you don't tell the truth. He would have to be entirely ignorant of the hundreds of millions handed to him by the Singh brothers upon the sale of Ranbaxy to claim he only received money from his parents.

The only "legitimate money" might be true. The last time he received legitimate money was from his patents. That might be true.

But then he would be indirectly acknowledging he stole the rest.

You wrote
"

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
Let me close the loop on the false logic of your argument.

If, as you claim, he acknowledged the legitimate money from his parents, but he also had received legitimate money elsewhere, from stocks, etc then he lied.

Why would he say be received money only from his parents if he had a full career in legitimate investment? To claim he only received money from his parents would be a lie, especially if his other income were legit.

But if he only received legitimate money from his parents, and the rest was fraud and theft, then his statement would be the truth. In order for the legitimate income to be only from his parents, the rest would have to be illegitimate for his statement to be truthful.

[Vijay]

Spence your wasting your time analyzing this as it’s pretty clear. He said he has not taken anything from anyone. The only money he has is from his parents. This does not mean he didn’t make money or invest money or didn’t increase that money.

[Spence Tepper]

Vijay, there must be a language barrier here, because when someone says "I didn't..."

But several arms of the justice system, including the high court says, "Oh yes you did" with audits aplenty to prove it, then someone ain't tellin' the truth.

[Arjuna]

@ Vijay - Spencer is right and YOU are WRONG.

Do you chill out with GSD and family or friends. Are you invited to their parties? Where you at GSDs sons wedding? Nope. Thought so. Try and understand yourself instead of defending someone you have no idea about.

You are one of these gullible people people who believe anything. Think man! Its priceless

[Dharam]

People are making ridiculous statements without knowing facts and essence of the court order.
Singh Brothers owe money to japanese company. They gave a list of companies/ individuals to the court that these owe money to them. High court attached their properties on the basis of report provided by Singhs only.
These companies or individuals were to be sent notices and tried by court to decide whether they actually owe money to Singh's or not. And if the court concludes that they have to pay,in that case,they have to pay their dues directly to the court and not to Singh's. That is the essence of court's order.
Without trial and giving due hearing, court cannot decide that one owes any amount to somebody.Hearings and trials have not yet been conducted and the gentleman blogger and critics commentors are ridiculously making their remarks without knowing court proceedings which are yet to take place.
It is wrong and ridiculous to conclude on the basis of media reports and on the submissions of one party without knowing judgement of court after hearing the other parties which is yet to take place.

[Dungeness]

Vijay, there must be a language barrier here, because when someone says "I didn't..."

But several arms of the justice system, including the high court says, "Oh yes you did" with audits aplenty to prove it, then someone ain't tellin' the truth.

Spence, the HC ruling has no bearing on GSD's conversational "lie". It's a
deflection and an absurd riff on an exchange peppered with its "I may
not have heard clearly" and "something like that".

--- "Will you pay for your nephews 5 million" (something like that, I don't
--- have a reference for that and I may not have heard clearly.)

--- Baba Ji [the guru] said (as I heard it) "I have some money from my parents and have not taken --- anything else from anyone." Then he said my life is open (or something like that)

GSD's answer is clearly a non sequitur to the question itself too suggesting he
was answering another question.

This is why propagandists are so dangerous. Nothing is more abhorrent
that their shrill attempts to seize on any "facts" , even second-hand,
garbled conversations, to put their thumbs on the scale.

[Vijay]

Spence I’m not going to argue it. Will just say just wait and see what unfolds. I’ve always said the high court ruling has come from Malvinders report. The rest let’s wait and see.

Arjuna yes I have. The Bedford one.
It’s funny when one doesn’t like what you say they call you trusting and gullible. Just saw a post calling Nancy the same.

[OshoRobbins]

Spence and dungeness
You are both off track.

When did he say "I have no other income other than....."

His statement was about borrowing money

[Spence Tepper]

Darham
You wrote
"High court attached their properties on the basis of report provided by Singhs only."

I'm sorry you haven't read the court order. They determined based on their own deliberation that Gurinder et al are legally responsible for payment and ordered them to pay the court directly, not the Singhs.

In this one act they took responsibility for most of those hundreds of millions of dollars off the Singhs shoulders and placed it directly onto Gurinder, family and friends, making 57 people, by name including Gurinder, who were ordered to pay the delinquent loans with interest directly to the court.

The High Court of Delhi also ordered Gurinder et al, by name, not to sell any of their assets before they pay the high Court first. This means that they cannot even use their own assets to pay their delinquent bills.

You need to understand what the Court is doing. They aren't actually working to get the delinquent loans paid. They are establishing liability directly on Gurinder, family and associates ' shoulders legally through their order as the foundation for criminal charges.

Payment of these bills would weaken the imperative and support of the investment community. Hence the order NOT to liquidate assets in order to pay the delinquent bills.

This is why Gurinder, as foolish as he has been, needs our help. The court will not allow him or any of the named parties, to sell off assets first in order to make payment.

[Jesse]

Dungeness, one side may be putting their thumbs on the scales, but the other puts their thumbs in their ears. Both literally and figuratively.

Gurinder has gone from being described as 100% undoubtedly innocent by pretty much everyone, to being considered suspiciously by enough of his own followers that they're asking him at satsangs if he's a criminal with a fleet of rolls royces and a harem of young women.

He may still come out of the system clean, but like OJ, nothing looks good for him and none of the evidence so far has helped to exonerate him. Each new revelation ends up being a strike against him, and only those who've taken their thumbs out of their ears seem to admit it.

https://twitter.com/TheReal0J32/status/1146590892838522880

[Dharam]

Spence
You are a great fool .You do not know ABC of court proceedings.
Court attached properties so that parties do not make payment directly to Singh's.
But whether they really owe or not has to be decided separately.
You are the biggest fool of the universe who criticizes without complete information.You are the biggest sinner.God will never forgive you.

[Amar]

Dharam, a bit judgmental aren't you? "You are the biggest sinner. God will never forgive you."

I see. So now you speak on behalf of "God". Did he he speak to you directly and ask you to say this? You discredit everything you said about how the court proceedings work. I would probably take it into account. But with your statement above, you sound like a religious lunatic and lose any credibility you have in making a sound counter statement to Spence's comments.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dharam
You wrote
"But whether they really owe or not has to be decided separately."

The High Court established liability first, before ordering payment They can't make an order for payment without establishing reasonable grounds for liability. That was already done.

This is the reason they intervened.

[Dharam]

Spence
You are totally wrong.No trial has been conducted by the court at all to establish liabilities.
Order has been passed by court just to prevent any payment to Singh's to safeguard interest of Japanese firm.
Your sole purpose is to criticize Master and you do not ABC of court proceedures.,as I wrote earlier.