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August 12, 2019

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Page 126 of gurbani
Paap pun doi Bhai
Duno milkey shisht upayee

Sin and virtue both brothers
Both met and created the world

Kill them both and enter the house of “The ONE”
With the gurus teaching you will enter the state of sehaj.

This is the same thing playing out right now in this incident.
There is no good and bad here
Only by dropping both
Taking a distant position and observing
Will you enter the house of ONE

Gurbani talks in riddles so seems nonsense unless you understand what it’s getting at.

On the way to Haynes we got lost. No sevadars there, no help. Everyone lost on the wrong road queueing up.

Then we reversed and found the right route. Now there are sevadars everywhere even where not needed.

For example they say “go straight” when there is no right or left turn anyways

I said my my cousin “this is what it’s like”

The lost people are totally lost and no help

Once you “get it” even all the gurbani confirms like these sevadars “yes carry on straight” but now you don’t need the direction

Where were they when you was lost

To Osho.
That sevadar situation is disgusting.
Your phone..its not a weapon ..you should have been treated respectfully...absolutely terrible childish egomaniacal situation...the RS group has gotton waaaay too big and the people just cant handle it anymore...
If you want to go again then go...they wont put you through a remembrance. They will forget you...it will be new sevadars.. lifes course will change...but this is like from the dark ages...better off staying home and thinking of old good memories.
So sorry these things are happening when you or anyone was not bringing danger to the satsang..
Chy

There’s only One, Osho Robbins
One Osho Robbins 😎

Good question Osho..
It seems there is no help in such moments..
But who knows..there is always help,just behind the corner at the right time and the right place??
Who ''knows''??

Oh what a tangled web we weave!

Dear Chy,

It is very simple to understand,
that it was not remotely being perceived as danger.

Everyone is going there to listen to the Satsang and not the smartphone ringtones.

It is just about maintaining the decorum of a place,
and following the said guidelines.

To your earlier question:
No, the hospital setup by Hazur Charan Singh Ji is fully functional and completely free of cost.
details here: https://www.rssb.org/hosp_msschBeas.html

here is the list of currently running 4 multi-speciality charitable hospitals:
https://www.rssb.org/hospitals.html

Hey Jesse,

You need to wake up to a couple of realities

- Non-punjabis make up a huge portion of followers
- any supposed fall in Western interest in RSSB continues to be made good by the south east Asian influx. Yes you read it right - the Koreans, Japos, Indonesians etc. It's amazing the numbers one sees in Beas.

Point being as is always said it's the Master who seeks out his marked souls and not the other way around.

Is this thread the longest in CotC history🤔

Jen from Austin--
The Ishwar link goes to "404 Not Found," at least for me. Could you re-post it please and maybe add the title of the clip as a backup to find by search?

One initiated.

Maybe I didn’t make it clear.

I owned up immediately and apologised.
I could have done nothing more.

Remember all I had recorded was 5 minutes of an English speaker

How is that an issue

Second thing. I called the police because they refused to return my property.

I said I wanted to leave. So why didn’t they return my phone and let me leave

I also made it clear that I would call the police before I did so. They didn’t care about breaking the law.

Also no ringtones phone was in airplane mode

When have you ever heard a. Ringtone in satsang

All this intelligence wasted on some suspect PLM GSD.

Instead all you intelligent brothers and sisters ought to explore a masterpiece Indian Guru who goes by the name Swami Nityanand.

And pls do throw light on his utterances that is if you understand them.

Cheers

Hey Osho, how's it going!

You write: "So the sevadar lied to save his seva, and that was predictable and there was a brief moment when he could break out, that would change his life. Stand for truth instead of lying."

"Of course it was just too obvious what was going on."

"Liars lie. Thieves steal. It’s the way their life has programmed them"

" I am going to see how far this corruption at the top goes."

Errrm, I feel like I really should be highlighting the obvious here......some rattled sevadars taking your phone & concocting lies about it, really is just a drop in the ocean compared to the behaviours that have been committed by Gurinder himself, and that you are not interested in & say is irrelevant? Further, all these extreme rules & regulations (which, btw, are arguably reasonable) have been requested & authorised by Gurinder himself. Why blame sevadars for trying to follow the rules their own cult leader has set them?

Indeed, you appear to excuse Gurinder's exceptional greed, fraudulent behaviour & avoidance of addressing the issue (of the fraud he profited obscenely from, at least until karma caught up with him :) openly and honestly, instead choosing to discuss issues of the "ONE" with him. That's all fair enough, but I wonder why you don't have the same interest in discussing the "ONE" with these 2 sevadars who took your phone & lied about it? Are they any more, or less, "ONE" than Gurinder? Are they any more, or less, AWARE they are part of "ONE" than Gurinder?

I'm just wondering why apply double standards? I see no reason to assume any level of difference between Gurinder and these 2 lying sevadars (well, except the obvious.....the lies of the 2 sevadars were probably based on a misguided sense of duty, whereas Gurinder's fraud was probably based on an extreme sense of greed & being impervious to the law/karma).

I have asked the question a few times of many people now and don't seem to have received a satisfactory response; precisely what is it, other than the fact he was chosen to lead the family business by his uncle (who was himself someone who admitted he had no spiritual knowledge, and made numerous judgemental errors during his life!), that suggests Gurinder knows any more about the "ONE" than my local dustbin men do?

I find it amusing that you may well have learnt more about the "ONE" from these 2 deceptive sevadars than you ever will from the actor on stage!

The full story is coming soon.
It’s gets much much more interesting.
Ends up in premeditated assault.
Instigated by the sevadars
And when I am saying I want to leave Haynes Park, six people grab me physically and take me where nobody can see and physically assault me by punching me in the face.

They think nobody will find out but don’t realise the power of truth. I am known by many of the old satsangis. I don’t tell lies. If I say it - it’s the truth regardless of if it works against me.
And people who know me know this

I am not a violent person.
Okay I did accept anami’s challenge to combat in jest
That’s about the extent of any violence in me.
Whereas the sevadars in question might have a history of violence, who knows.

The matter will go all the way to the top to the guru himself. I have more than enough support to do this from satsangis who know me and my father and family

Don’t forget my father was only of the early uk satsangis from 1963.


Lots of talk about Ishwar Puri lately. Here he discusses these so called controversies that Masters get into. Have a listen.

Ishwar mentions the "scandal" in the 30's when the papers suggested hanky-panky
between Great Master and his three sevadar bibi's.

Here's an alleged discussion that arose inthe back alleys of yesteryear...
latter to become a breeding ground for the CofC:

--They got him this time... a menage a trois, oops, I mean a menage a
quatre, at that so-called Dera.
--Ya know, don't remember where, but I heard one of those bibi's is a
bit underage.
--Gawd, that perv!
--Whaddya expect, all Guru's are sexual predators, scammers, low-life's.
--Seriously, he just remains silent, Hey, it's our duty to call him out on it.
He's a proven fake and effectively runs a crime family... trafficking in
young, innocent bibi's. We need an intervention. He'll confess what's
happened, then we'll gather round and find a way to pay off the civil
suits. We can be a family again! Poor but happy!
--Nah, he's done the crime, gotta do the time. No more of this cream-
puff stuff, there's a new sheriff in town. Once, the scoundrel's history we'll
vet a few decent blokes for the sheep to vote on. They need our help
here to understand spirituality.
---You will agree though we should visit him in prison and show our love.
--I suppose... but "tough love" and no young girls. They say "once a predator,
always a predator".
--Shouldn't we wait till he's convicted of pedophilia or something?
--Oh, hell no. Are you blind to what's going on... or just plain stupid?

Hi Manjit
Osho Robbins, the One of All Oneness has Double Standards???
What is the Creation coming to???

Osho R wrote: "Who is the harjit Singh you refer to?"

Hey Osho - Harjit Singh lives (or at least used to) in Southall.......he claims to be a successor to Faqir Chand. No connection to RSSB at all. I had a very interesting & long discussion with him on the phone about 20 years ago (when I was having my own "awakening" experiences), give me a call sometime I'll tell you all about it! Youtube satsangs of Faqir Chand with Harjit Singh present can be found here (there's a few more I think):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRzT0qpbIqY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj7tuv7r8FE

Different level stuff about the RS practice & experience to anything you will ever hear Gurinder say, imo. Listen to them!

Re. your latest....wow! You definitely have to tell us more about this, I'll call to get the names ha :) Anyway, sounds like you got out of there safe & well thank goodness! :)

PS Osho - I believe that nothing at all will come of you taking this matter "all the way to the top". You really need to consider the situation Gurinder himself is in, alleged death threats from his goons et al.

I believe you may be over-estimating Gurinder's basic decency & concern for individuals in his sangat, whilst under-estimating the almost supernatural irony of the situation....

Osho R: "" I am going to see how far this corruption at the top goes.""

I'm sorry, this is my 4th post now.......but I'm really struggling to comprehend why you, Osho R, haven't noticed, or at least noted, the supreme irony of this situation?

You are surprised by the conspiracy, lies, intimidation & physical attack by satsangis of Gurinder, in respect of you disobeying GURINDER'S edict to not have phones, take notes, record etc in satsang, and them taking your phone?

I was sure you'd been participating in the discussions about Gurinder here over the past few months?

What part of the behaviours you encountered by devoted satsangis of Gurinder, does not reflect in some way all that we have learnt about Gurinder himself, and that you have excused? These satsangis are doing a SPLENDID job in emulating their Master! We all know the story of the guy who meditated on a bison, then imagined he couldn't fit through a doorway because his horns were too big!

I too, like yourself, believe all is ONE (without forgetting that there is multiplicity in Oneness, and Oneness in multiplicity). There is in your recent experiences, imo, strong hints of ONE story being told, but across multiple levels.......

Anami here’s the actual link. listen to the first 10 minutes.

https://youtu.be/8ABELW0Gte8

The sect is in dire need of a Guru like Maharaj Jagat Singh.

The Gurudom must move out of the family and I hope it passes to one with no family.

See what wonders a man with no to little family has done to India. Replicate this model.

Osho,

You think anything good will come out just because the matter reaches GSD?

Why doesn't this high handedness by Sevadars not surprise me?

Security Sevadars are in breach of law - probably might have even deaths on their hands in the garb of protecting the interests and/or providing security/protection to Guru and Sangat.

None of it would've happened to Osho if Haynes Park had an Open Thread.

Jen from Austin Texas wrote: "Anami here’s the actual link. listen to the first 10 minutes.
https://youtu.be/8ABELW0Gte8"

Wow, having listened to the first 10 mins of this talk, I am astonished anyone could take any of this seriously.

First of all, as far as I'm aware the tale of Bulleh Shah that Ishwar recounts seems to me to be a corruption of a story actually about Kabir told in Ananta-Das's "Kabir Parachai", where Kabir puts water in a wine-holder and keeps the company of a prostitute, as part of a larger story? Bulleh Shah of course is said to have learnt to look, dress and dance like a prostitute by a prostitute so that he could dance for his own Master.

But more importantly, I cannot believe anybody could take such a story seriously, especially in context of the many modern scandals surrounding RS gurus!

It of course goes without saying that such a story can & indeed is literally used as justification to turn a blind eye to WHATEVER abuses an alleged "Satguru" commits. It is precisely this story that was used by initiates of Thakar Singh when he sexually abused female initiates during initiation, or the crimes of Ram Rahim, and today by satsangis of RSSB and Gurinder. It is literally a call to mind-less-ness. Don't think, just believe!

It is also no surprise that Ishwar would like to tell this story, as he himself was notoriously removed from being an official RSSB speaker BY RSSB several decades ago due to multiple & imo credible claims of sexual impropriety with young female satsangis!

Of course, all this is just the mysterious ways of magical masters, keeping away the insincere seekers, right?

Wrong. Even Ishwar seems unconvinced when he adds his own twist to the story and says something like "his disciples said, but you are keeping the seekers away too, and Bulleh Shah said "why are you still here, then?"

Think about what Ishwar is actually saying for a moment. He is actually saying genuine & sincere seekers will be kept away, but mindless believers will remain - there is no other way to rationally interpret the consequences of Ishwar's spin on this story!

I mean, obviously so - what will genuine, sincere seekers who have no religious, sunken-cost fallacy, believer devotion to whatever family member is on the gaddhi, think about Gurinder & all the news about him? Especially when there are literally HUNDREDS of teachers who believe and repeat the same concepts as RSSB? Attracted to the teachings, possibly, but attracted to this semi-billionaire accused of fraud and worse, with no actual personal story or history of being a mystic of any sort?

I find Ishwar's use of this story to be incredibly troubling, and deeply lacking in wisdom or insight into the world. I find it simply to be a mindless defence & rationalisation of indefensible & hypocritical behaviour that lacks any integrity, honesty or conscious "crazy-wisdom" intent.

As for his comments about the superiority of "Great Masters Spirituality" to entheogen use, well that is also quite laughable, and even more so based in fundamental ignorance of the subject. Dropping the names of Alpert and Leary (genuine, original legends, both of them!) aside. He presumably doesn't notice the irony that he had to covertly seduce young women during satsang, whereas these guys could do it openly & without lying both to themselves and to others......such was their honesty, integrity, passion for truth etc!! :)

To Mike:

"longest thread in CofC history".

Looks like were off the subject...its gone into" malicious sevadars"...and now
"Sexuality of the Masters"....new title for Brians next book ....Just kidding Brian.......It should be with varying opinions on if they had or have one or not....
If anyone knows facts! not hearsay or angry women at RS making exaggerated accusations false accusations ....$$ talks accusations but have truth to share who said what did what when and where then inform the feed here...most of it sounds like assumptions so far from what I read...
Yes anythings possible so speak be honest and fair . We are all ears rather eyes for reading
Chy

Manjit with all due respect you missed Ishwar’s point. He was pointing out that these masters DID NOT do the things they may look to others like they dId.He did not do anything but walk with the woman and it looked like something else to others. And same with great master.
Anyways I don’t know much about Ishwar Puri but just shared it as i think it’s interesting.
Draw your own conclusions. Good day

"First of all, as far as I'm aware the tale of Bulleh Shah that Ishwar recounts seems to me to be a corruption of a story actually about Kabir told in Ananta-Das's "Kabir Parachai","

I've seen similar stories in Buddhist compilations. Tests for disciple stories involving hookers and cocaine or whatever is pretty standard and I don't even know if we could pinpoint the origins. And anyway, Ishwar Puri is a grifter.

But Gurinder isn't testing his disciples. He's straight the F up embroiled in corporate scandal. It's not like one day he met some RS devotees in an office and a sting operation happened by chance that same day. He's spent decades in "the dark" doing god knows what.

If a convincing multilayered Zen/Bhakti devotion test can be woven from his experience, I'll join RSSB again.

"Hey Jesse,

You need to wake up to a couple of realities

Blah Blah blah"

Go outside with a list of religions and Indian guru sects including RSSB or any Radha Soami sect . Ask people what they are. Come back to me and admit that you have no idea what you're saying when they all say "what is radha soami? it sounds dumb."

I spend a lot of time in India and most people there don't know even what radha soami is, or they confuse it with one of the million other guru cults. You think some thousands in Asia is significant? There are probably more Mormons in North Korea than there are satsangis in Indonesia.

And by the way Korea and Japan aren't southeast Asia. You're thinking of Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Mayanmar, Vietnam, and yes, Indonesia, but they're weird.

"The matter will go all the way to the top to the guru himself. I have more than enough support to do this from satsangis who know me and my father and family "

Oh no. You're doing the "DO YOU KNOW WHO MY FATHER IS?!?!?!?" thing?

There's an historical Gurdwara in Delhi called Sis Ganj that I used to go to sometimes. One time I was sitting near the back there listening to some really soft kirtan when a Marathi man sat next to me and started chatting about god knows what. I didn't know much about the area surrounding the temple, and in India if you're foreign you often meet "odd" people so I didn't think much of it. Meeting odd fellows is one of the perks actually, but can get annoying when you're in a temple.

But this dude kept talking, so I asked him to come outside so we wouldn't disturb others who were quietly ignoring the kirtan in favor of whatsapp content inside the house of god. Anyway, while we were sitting outside he went and got khara prasad to share with me. As he broke it in half and reached over to give me a piece one of the security guys who hold the big spears ran over and grabbed him sort of violently. The kid starting yelling "do you know who my father is!!!" as he was dragged outside and thrown onto the sidewalk.

The security man came back and told me that there are a lot of heroin addicts in that area of Chandni Chowk, and that it's not unheard of to hear of them poisoning food and prasad in order to rob people. He didn't ask if maybe I wanted to get high. Rude?

I'm not saying you're a crackhead trying to poison people to buy drugs, Osho. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that your family probably isn't going to take down this billionaire guru just cause an overzealous volunteer punched you in the mouth, just like that druggie kids father didn't stop his ass from hitting the concrete after he tried to share what was most likely perfectly normal prasad with me in an act of social harmony.

Well on Ishwar Puri.
A speaker at RSSB is not a master to start that can be anyone who can explain the teachings and deliver a satsang that is asked to give satsang.
When great master passed the will to m. Charan singh and the Dera as we all know THE WILL.
He the great master asked Ishwar who was a disciple of his at a very young age to come to the west and spread sant mat.
The west is gaining spirituality and the east is becoming more material and gaining in that direction..some words to that effect.
So after the transition Ishwar got an inner direction to initiate and did for some time. Then he quit because he felt there is no one like the great master and he did not want to be responsible for the souls.
Now hes 93 or so I think....many years in the USA spreading the word.
He has a family. He worked all his life made good money and still giving satsangs..posted this since so many wondering about him. .
Chy

Jesse

Nice try shifting your position.

To quote you

"I've never met a non Punjabi in my life who has ever heard of radha soami.

Nobody has heard of them let alone agrees about their "pure spiritual character."

Never met a non Punjabi in your life and nobody has heard to now most in India ....... What a shame. But it's ok.

Keep posting!!

Spend a lot of time in India huh.... LOL.

Hey Chy,

Are you able to back up what you say with facts i.e. the Great Master asked Ishwar to spread sant mat in the west. If this is indeed true then (1) RSSB would recognise this (to the best of my knowledge it doesn't) and (2) Ishwar wouldn't be any different from the other authorised to initiate. Still stuck on the Great Master when the gaadi has passed on.

And hey what crime has Maharaj Jagat Singh committed that he isn't referenced in between Great Master and Hazur? I know that Great Master did mention that Jagat would be for a short while as Hazur wasn't ready then (or something to that effect)

Maharaj Jagat Singh both an ideal Sevadar and Master!!!!!!!!

Btw - you must hear Ishwar on Aakashic Records. It's an interesting discourse. And hey I love listening to him.

To read

Great Master did mention to Jagat that he would have to even though for a short while as Hazur wasn't ready then (or something to this effect)

If a convincing multilayered Zen/Bhakti devotion test can be woven from his experience, I'll join RSSB again.

You are better off outside RSSB. Though am sure GSD will ignore all that you said here and elsewhere against RSSB, him and his family and warmly welcome you back if you ever decide to.

Ra-ONE said,

All this intelligence wasted on some suspect PLM GSD.

Instead all you intelligent brothers and sisters ought to explore a masterpiece Indian Guru who goes by the name Swami Nityanand.

And pls do throw light on his utterances that is if you understand them.

Cheers


Is this guy for real?? GIHF, PML of just God is he???

https://youtu.be/OzMRbC8uH2w

Hi SP.
back up...my rememberences Ishwar somewhere along the line said this and others in the olden days...so if this is the case....and I heard it right then your blog would be accurate assumption. I dont have legal documents any different than whats available for all to see...no secret proofs.
As well I heard that m. Jagat singh was an interim. As m. Charan was not ready yet...what ready means..for gods sake maybe he was finishing up having children..dont worry about all this just learn from all the teachers..Jagat singh ..he was a unique master. I dont know much about him all good.
I met one of his disciples visiting CA in the 70s...very balanced stable individual very "on the path" as one would say.
Now I was initiated by m. Charan singh..my parents as well...
So Ishwar I find to be very interesting and who the heck am I to say what he has achieved spiritually...To my knowledge he never claimed that THE WILL from great master involving the Dera was to go to him...his dad Lekh Raj carried on the Dera work for m. Charan ....as we all saw upon visiting the Dera...but again that is not the person to ask about his son...anyway hes deceased now.
If you were initiated by m. Charan singh then I believe in so many words your butts covered...Ishwar wont reinitiate but seems hes helping tryint to help a lot of RS satsangis understand things in more detail from a intellectual perspective as well. M. Charan just came ( from the heart ) all love and devotion and I felt this in his presence and he seemed to get caught up in everyones daily problem solving advices...rarely ane NEW QUESTIONS.

So take it all in and dont worry about it.. Its all good SP...thats why we are on this blog here to open doors for each other.
Chy

I love how easy it is romanticize history. Jaimal Singh was asked personally by Soami Ji to spread the teachings to the Punjab. Just like Sawan Singh told Ishwar Puri to go to the West to spread the teachings.

Anyone see the trend here? Kirpal Singh said Sawan Singh looked in Kirpal's eyes and transferred "something" to him.

It's all a bunch of stories to justify "the Position", the gaddi. The way I see it, my opinion here folks, there probably is merit in the teachings and/or the method. Apparently, doesn't matter who gives you the instructions.

SP are you joking about Nityanand? He was caught on camera boinking some random chicks while he goes on tour talking about Brahmacharya. That guy is the lowest guru of them all. He also says he's going to use some sort of magical science to clone magical cows or something. A real idiot.

Plus he's fat as all hell now. Doesn't even have basic self control or self respect. And anyone who wears costumes that are not only not traditional, but just outright stupid looking and seem as if they were purchased from a shop for theater gear is more of a circus clown.

Osho, do you believe that this incident is divine will?

Or is it divine will that you do something? Like file a simple charge of assault? Then a judge can hear the matter and render a decision.

Or you could decide that this was old Karma and Baba Ji was helping you get rid of it, which will help in your liberation.

Or you could decide that this was a challenge to your capacity to accept whatever happens.

Everyone will look at this differently, based on their psychology. But the real issue is what is your duty?

My take is that IF you neither verbally abused them nor provoked physical violence with some visible physical threat (like swinging first) then I think there are at least two options under the category of 'what is the right thing to do?'

The first is your duty as a citizen to file a formal police complaint. As a member of society you have a duty to protect your brothers and sisters in whatever small way you can. This also helps the Sangat.

The second is that, if you will not do the first, then you should formally apologize to the sevadar who hit you, or absent that, to the Sangat. This is because you have chosen to let them get away with it, and in so doing are contributing to the problem.

Jesse: "SP are you joking about Nityanand?"

No, SP, presumably somebody with a (familial) connection to RSSB & Gurinder, was mocking RA-One's mention of Nityananda.

I would note, RA-One was probably referring to the Kriya yoga Swami Nityananda Giri, or Muktananda's guru Bhagwan Nityananda.......NOT the Nithyananda you and SP appear to be referring to?

PS - re the Haynes punching incident, having spoken to Osho R, I can assure you it actually happened and is far more interesting than what has been revealed so far. I advise Osho R caution and discernment on the matter! Re the tough guy talk, I get the sentiment, but context is very important. I am certain, personally, that Osho was less "frightened" and full of fear than the attackers, and I think his behaviour was exemplary, and probably the right thing to do in the context. It's not about being scared imo. I will let him tell the story. That said, acting tough is easy. So is finding yours or someone else's life changed forever in an instant over the pettiest of things. It's not about bravery or strength, but intelligence.

Dear Jen from AT - Nah, I think I understand both yours and Ishwar's intent and meaning in sharing that story very, very well. Not sure you understood my point though, but never mind, I never expected you to :) Have a most delightful day indeed! :)

Manjit I did hear your point loud and clear. But like I said your interpretation vs my interpretation. Thankfully we are all entitled to one. 😊

I guess I missed the first part of the Nityananda talk, Manjit. The guru in the video is a real jokester who selects only the finest of females.

And I'm not seriously telling Osho to punch anyone in the face unless he really gets down like a chav. Of course in that context there's little to gain from wrecking someone's face, no matter how badly they deserve it.

I'm still holding onto my prediction of Radha Soami riots in the near future. In less than 5 years from now I'd guess. It's a bloated org that seems ready to blow off some steam.

Hi SP.
Please help me seriously to see what you are trying to convey on Swami Nityananda.....
What do you feel he has given you or that we on the blog could use to know...?
He is interesting and loves gold chairs and statues of gold and Rudraksha beads... I like those things too...

Let me in on your discovery..
Chy

Hi
Jesse.
Im half slav as well....not that it matters but its around.
Anyway I am very concerned about Dera possible unrest in the next few years as you mentioned particularly if babaji dies or is incapable of managing the sheep around there...the whole area there in India for miles around is in a tense emotional state.
M. Charan put a hospital there for many reasons.......
So lets wish the best for the area and peace around the Dera area amongst the people and it may go on well. Its very crowded in there and lots of shifting viewpoints from 30 or 40 more years back...
Just in response to your last blog on riots possibility...
Lets all send good energy to the area.
There was a lot of love there when I went 70s and 80s...I havent been since then....tons of people now..whew..
Chy

Hey Chy,

It's worthwhile you plan a visit to Dera maybe later this year itself when foreigners visit and see for yourself the Dera transformation, how well controlled Dera is despite it's growth (possible only because of the master) and the political and emotional stability that largely prevails for miles around there. And yes the love and devotion amongst the sangat is intact. Yes it's close to the border with Pakistan and that's a threat. Low possibility though.

Crowds have grown - yes. But as privileged westerners how does that concern you? You will be insulated from them.

Now repeating myself visit Dera........

Hey Chy,

On Nityanand, have nothing really except that he is a good stress buster. Despite his gibberish, he has followers which makes me wonder (rarely) do I miss something profound he says. Not that I am likely to shift allegiance to him.

Happy with my current beliefs.

Hi SP.
thank you for the infos...I wont be able to get back to India this year..too many blocks for me at the moment and travelling so far alone.....but good to hear your opinion that so far so good around there...its like homeland from my old memories...would hate to see somethings happen.
The world has a lot of tension these days and we just never know what is going to happen next. I can see where some folks feel some unrest could happen...
Well you take care now..
Chy

Chy,

It's a shame you can't make it. But I can tell you if you really wish, the blocks will make way and the journey will not be to some far away land. Believe me.

If you haven't been to Dera since the 70's/80's your eyes gonna pop out even before you hit Beas station (that small Kothi near the station still exists btw) - what will welcome you is a station voted the cleanest in India, a road that matches the best expressway in India. If our trips match, we could even go for some pizzas at Beas station.

Almost nothing from the 70's/80's remains - so the old Dera would just be in your memories - like with me.

Till this day I keep narrating what Dera used to be back then and probably will till I die.

Travel to Beas is a breeze now - well connected by road, railways and airways. 24x7 Dera taxi facility if one reaches at an odd hour. GSD has been doing a lot to make it somewhat easy for the sangat coming.

Non-believers (friends and acquaintances) who have visited say they couldn't believe such a place could exist in India.

Infact all in here the Jesse, Manjit, Osho, Spence, Brian etc should visit the Dera. If all together better it would be.

SP, you wrote: "Crowds have grown - yes. But as privileged westerners how does that concern you? You will be insulated from them."

So much wrong with that statement I don't know where to begin. I absolutely love the the last line: You will be insulated from them. THEM. The ones who sit over a mile from the stage, poor, sitting with love at the back of the shed.

I would love to see what would happen if the "westerners" had to sit in the back of the shed.
Or for that matter, the NRI's.

RA-One wrote: "All this intelligence wasted on some suspect PLM GSD.
Instead all you intelligent brothers and sisters ought to explore a masterpiece Indian Guru who goes by the name Swami Nityanand."

Hi RA-One - I fear you may have overestimated the intelligence of the brothers and sisters here? :)

For, whilst it appears you refer to a Swami Nityanand, those lacking sufficient clarity may confuse either of the 2 well known Nityanands (Giri & Bhagwan) with the pop-guru Swami NitHyanand (notice the H in the name, folks!). They may also ignore attempts to clarify their confusion, as that may not suit their purposes, of which honesty, accuracy, truth etc does not seem to be a component!

Hi "SP" - you write: "Infact all in here the Jesse, Manjit, Osho, Spence, Brian etc should visit the Dera. If all together better it would be."

What with all the recent news about Gurinder and his cronies, some of which I personally know to be true (Osho's story), that sounds like a threat to me? Is that a threat? :)

Why should I come to Beas, "SP", because they have a nice transport system, and non-vegan eateries on site? Are you joking? Why don't I instead take the advice of my friends who recommend I visit Dubai, with it's opulence & luxury? I have less than zero interest visiting there, either. How about Vatican City? A truly beautiful place, I've heard? Or the Jehovah Witness HQ, or one of the opulent Mosques in the world, etc?

What exactly is my motivation to come? Eating pizza? What?

I notice you mock the videos of NitHyanada, easy to do, I don't blame you. He is ANOTHER scandal embroiled "Guru", just like Gugu. But at least he has the courage to put these videos out there for all to see, unlike Gugu, who hasn't even penned a poem for the sangat in 30 years let alone released weekly videos. At least we know what he's actually teaching, rather than have people like Osho have to come here to share and receive abuse from random anonymous cowards, oops, posters, who don't agree with the "tone" of his sharing, if not the actual accuracy. And that he didn't achieve his position as "Guru" merely because a family member decided it was so.

So what exactly are we all headed to Beas for, on some weird ChurchoftheChurchless family vacation?

The last time I heard all these wise sounding claims from religious RSSBrs, with a knowing nod & a wink, "come to Beas, you'll see...", "just come, you will be amazed" etc, was to the poster known as "Jim S". Well, he went to Beas for the first time, after decades of being an RSSB initiate and advocate in online discussions.........and after doing so & hearing Gugu's now infamous "69" answer to a questioner, he left the place thoroughly disenchanted & "knowing" Gurinder & RSSB wasn't for him.......take note, "SP". You are now inferring sceptics can go there and be, what, I dunno, either converted into the glory of the light that is Gurinder's Saintliness, or, errr, more likely "disappeared" from what we're hearing about this guru and organisation!??

Please, be serious.

Finally, I've spent several weeks at Beas on 2 occasions & seen Gugu at the Delhi satsang. I also went alone. On my second visit to Beas, some 22 odd years ago (?), I thoroughly enjoyed my stay in the Sadhu hostels, with the barest amenities. My deepest joys during my visits there was interacting with the "crowds"; serving rice & dahl in the main langar & going through for parshad at the end of satsang etc. That last experience, at Delhi & Beas, was a priceless experience.

I'm not sure what you think our interest was in this "Radhasoami"? To have a nice relaxing holiday? Have you lost ALL sense that this is meant to be the only efficacious spiritual path in all creation?

Manjit my Friend but you will come to me...i will make vegan dishes for you.peace my Friend

Hi Amar.
I understand how you feel...back when m. Charan singh put the westerners near the front...this was because many came for 2 or 3 weeks 1 time and never saw him again never. Or they were elderly and died or never returned.
Yes there were special privileged westerners for this reason or that...AND the westerners fought over seats and also had a back row that few wanted.
Now at satsang in front of the westerners...there were 3 or 4 rows of privileged Indians including Maharani..all westerners sat behind these rows...
Then behind all that the rest...
Babaji may have changed that I dont know.
Now charan put all the Indians living in the west mainly in FRONT ROWS when he travelled outside of India....
Westerners were not all treated special by the seating situation and master felt the indians had him daily so many for years thats all.
The throngs of bhandara people...well just too much crowd no one gets good seating..thats why the inner master is our goal if you follow traditional RS if youre not perhaps its because you need a friend to help you understand that masters dont prefer westerners. They just try to give everyone a chance to get close...
The seating competition became terrible and many westerners stopped going due to bad behaviour on the part of other westerners...
Westerners dont have a special place in the nasters heart any more than indians...
Most westerners loved the hospitality of the indians. Teriffic people. I love them dearly..
Chy

A little confusion for me here..
who is saying westerners are priviliged SP and or Amar.
Please refer to my last blog on the non special status of westerners.
Now then there are always some both indian and western that get status usually due to seva they are doing not
SPIRITUAL ATTAINMENT. Totally seperate reason and matter...
Humans think if someone gets close to master that that person is special....no either in need or some project where the mastervis with that person. NOT because he or she is getting more grace or darshan.
You can get darshan at home alone.
SP
The Dera is not the same now you say...huge and overgrown I am sure and modernized and the station. I rode on a horse cart from the train everytime to Dera....and one time stepped in the bingi ditch and smelled great all the way to the Dera. No water to xlean off...
I will keep your thoughts in mind here and cool if we all met would be lots of fun.
Jesse coukd watch the politics for our safety.

Spence explain all the satsangs afterward
..
Osho get us good seats!! Keep the sevadars at bay...

I get rather neptunian...

SP point out all the other mini gurus around the place and dortune tellers too.
As time goes on we can figure roles for the others on the blog when they go
As well. Too long of a list and im just getting familiar with you all little by liittle
Lets all at least meet astrally. There is no seating that way..
Chy

Manjit,

Sorry to sound rude, but your short-circuited mind needs a fix. Show me a word which alludes to a visit to Dera for your and others spiritual awakening. Everything I have mentioned is only about how Dera and Beas has changed over time. And by the way a 22 year ago trip you talk about is prehistoric in Dera's timeline. Every 3/4 months there are noticeable changes at Dera these days.

With pleasure I leave you to yourself finding ways and questions to justify not visiting Dera. Just wish it were the other way around and also so that instead of referencing others experiences you could then narrate your own (what do they say in Punjabi haad-beeti) experience about Dera.

Dera certainly doesn't miss you or stands to lose by you not visiting. Cant say the same about you though especially the second bit - for even you will never know.

Btw are you initiated?

Just hope you never have any regrets in life and especially when your time comes. Oops am sounding morbid here and my deepest apologies to you for this.


PS: please don't forget to post your experiences about Dubai, Vatican and other places you list. I hope these would be better than serving dal and rice in the langar at Dera.

Chy,

Limiting myself to the gents side, the westerners (in mean all foreign nationals) and the important people now sit perpendicular to the stage (GSD straight line vision) and not facing it. So you get a side view. NRI's face the stage. And all these sections are in the front - so in that sense privileged - unlike the "THEM" the lost of whom is probably a mile from the stage and only has some general sense of where Babaji's stage is. And having experienced both (haad beeti lol) I say Satsang is more satisfying sitting at the back.

But my point of being insulated from the crowds was not just limited to Satsang. It was with regards to your stay at Dera as well. What Babaji has achieved is a Dera expansion where by the masses are all hosted at the periphery with all facilities provided to them close by so that they do not have a need to come into portions of Dera where quarters for Dera Residents and/or Hostels for westerners and/or NRI's are.


Finally the chances of us meeting in Dera are brighter than meeting astrally. Of course for no fault of yours for I have no grand illusions of being enlightened in this life and besides at the astral level wont be cease to exist as Chy and SP??

Your mobiles get deposited with the security at the entry gate itself - so you cant enter Dera with a phone (unless you have a phone pass ). So unauthorised Handphones - confiscation certainly, eviction and/or ban from Dera not sure but could be as well. Even authorised phones not allowed in Satang.

But there is no risk of getting punched for this offence. Sevadars generally are both extremely polite and firm. A no is a no. No exceptions. Infact in such a situation I wont be surprised if the Secretariat actually traces back who the sevadar was at the gate and he along with his supervisor is sacked for the lapse.

I also haven't seen a clamour amongst westerners for getting good seats. Whether first row or last in the westerners enclosure it almost the same. Maybe it existed during Hazur's time. Now a days nobody can sit in an enclosure he/she is not entitled too - yes there are rules on where one can sit - in the front enclosures I mean. On the spot discretion vests with certain senior Sevadars but then I understand any such call taken is reportable. So it is very judicious. The crowds therefore also tend to be more disciplined knowing exceptions don't come by.

@Manjit, am certain sadhu ashram has been razed a while ago and going through the prasad at the end of the satsang is just cherished memory now, just like being given prasad whilst seated - the halwa and/or small packets of puffed rice

Manjit,

Swami Nithyananda being a stress buster is mocking him/his videos?? Well you certainly do not have any inkling of the value of stress busters then.

So if understanding my posts is difficult, how about skipping them.

Take care and Ganpati Bhappa Moriya.

Hi SP
Quick note.
Are you saying there is a pizza place in Beas or Dera?
Now is it bonafide pretty close to pizza or is it naan with paneer and Indian veggies and a few tomatoes?
Or are they making PIZZA with various cheeses in there now?
Im not playing here just no one ever mentioned what restaurants exist there these days.
Somebody mentioned family vacations at Dera..No doubt it is that way for poor Indians. They bring their families to see babaji and enjoy the company of others and happy people.
Many regular vacations are infested with negative people.
I enjoy going to a lot of places but have some issues not health or affordability but need to be here now for some time.
Too much trouble to get out.
My satsangi contacts are few and elderly. They are too old to travel since late 90s. I dont attend satsang ..but ive attended hundreds in the 70s and 80s ...so its time for me to do other things. Therefore Im not up to date.
On the latest fashions foods and gossip at the Dera...
As well enjoying Nityananda in between his unique delivery....
Chy

Chy,

Limiting myself to the gents side, the westerners (in mean all foreign nationals) and the important people now sit perpendicular to the stage (GSD straight line vision) and not facing it. So you get a side view. NRI's face the stage. And all these sections are in the front - so in that sense privileged - unlike the "THEM" the lost of whom is probably a mile from the stage and only has some general sense of where Babaji's stage is. And having experienced both (haad beeti lol) I say Satsang is more satisfying sitting at the back.

But my point of being insulated from the crowds was not just limited to Satsang. It was with regards to your stay at Dera as well. What Babaji has achieved is a Dera expansion where by the masses are all hosted at the periphery with all facilities provided to them close by so that they do not have a need to come into portions of Dera where quarters for Dera Residents and/or Hostels for westerners and/or NRI's are.

The chances of us meeting in Dera are brighter than meeting astrally. Of course for no fault of yours for I have no grand illusions of being enlightened in this life and besides at the astral level wont we cease to exist as Chy and SP??

Your mobiles get deposited with the security at the entry gate itself - so you cant enter Dera with a phone (unless you have a phone pass ). So unauthorised Handphones if caught - confiscation certainly, eviction and/or ban from Dera not sure but could be as well. Even authorised phones not allowed in Satang.

But there is no risk of getting punched for this offence. Sevadars generally are both extremely polite and firm. A no is a no. No exceptions. Infact in such a situation I wont be surprised if the Secretariat actually traces back who the sevadar was at the gate and he along with his supervisor is sacked for the lapse.

I also haven't seen a clamour amongst westerners for getting good seats. Whether first row or last in the westerners enclosure it almost the same. Maybe it existed during Hazur's time. Now a days nobody can sit in an enclosure he/she is not entitled too - yes there are rules on where one can sit - in the front enclosures I mean. On the spot discretion vests with certain senior Sevadars but then I understand any such call taken is reportable. So it is very judicious. The crowds therefore also tend to be more disciplined knowing exceptions don't come by.

@Manjit, am certain sadhu ashram has been razed a while ago and going through the prasad at the end of the satsang is just cherished memory now, just like being given prasad whilst seated - the halwa and/or small packets of puffed rice

Hi all, first of all i'd like to thank Brian Hines for creating this forum and Osho Robins for being so frank..I've been a part of this organisation myself for more than 2 decades, but decided to make it quits a few years back..Few annoying reasons like punctuality, registration sign-in, cleaning the already cleaned floors or windows just to pass time, langar only for sewadars, etc. to name a few..I had come here hoping to know my creator but instead ,being under all rules and regulations which i felt was being priortised..You cant move on your own without your superior's consent..Spirituality should have taught me to be more free but i found myself more bound..A few years back after quitting satsang, i started listening to other masters on Advaita Vedanta (non duality)..The pointings are so so clear that you wonder where i was wandering, but sometimes to have the understanding of reality and living it you have to go thru paths as a stepping stone..There's no one to blame for the time lost..Lastly i would wholeheartly recommend all who really are interested in realizing the self to listen to Swami Priyananda's talks, for i'm sure you can't miss it..Thanking all..

Hi Eddie. Nice comments. I agree with "no one to blame for time lost". Every step taken in this life is a learning experience. Listening to points of view that are contrary to our own and even reading books that may have nothing to do with our own path/mindset, will enrich our understanding and hopefully add to our quest for finding out who we really are, if anything.

I think the RSSB bureaucracy, for lack of a better term, is needed due to it's sheer size and growth, especially under GSD. We can debate whether the machine has become too big, since the sangat has grown so much, but the teachings still resonate with most people. The concept of the guru as savior doesn't resonate with me anymore, but I continue with my meditation.

To Eddie and Amar.
Your blogs...
Eddie years ago I remember when there were 2 satsangis where i live. One was my mother late 1960s. This went on for a few years..it grew some and everybody thought WOW RS is spreading and more people are opening into the sweet teachings....
Little did we know now its like Manhattan!!!! Throngs of people too many ...so much ambiance and gentle nuances are not here anymore. Those things were real and sorry you missed them.
Go back if you feel. Dont do any seva work just sit quiet and be inside.If somebody gets on you to do seva just SAY NO NOT THIS TIME.

Number 1.
Seva chores are reserved for those who unfortunately feel they will never go back to god without hours and hours of the more work and the dirtier work the faster is your reward. If you clean toilets the higher up sevadars will promise you that hundreds of lifetimes of karmas are lifted when you do toilet seva for huge crowds...come on...a sucker born every minute.
Yes its great to help people but dont do it like this...you need that peace easy time when going to see your guru...
They need workers yes so pay non interested in the guru city staff workers. Not satsangi people!! Let them relax at this time. but the con is the rumors around that you cant get from A to B without hours of seva....
The organization can!! afford to PAY a crew to come in and do everything...that way ALL visitors can sit and relax and bask in the presence of these divine beings who come in for a quick hour and leaves presence. Your focus would be on the inward teachings not chores that people could be hired to do...
Distraction folks here and way to save money...
Different at dera ...lets keep it simple talking about for overseas centers sevas ..

Number 2 .
The ideas of saviour.... as Amar commented on doing meditation not thinking of saviour anymore...

I say
Get off the dream machine do some meditation be kind to animals be a good person. Play online etc. With hearing all the different gurus you enjoy but keep your focus on what you are in all this for and give up the idea of SAVIOUR. This word has thrown more satsangis into confusion than anything...
Go analyze for yourself and you will soon know exactly what these gurus are to give you and what they are not.
Quit listening to dera propoganda or dera gossip..either in the west or the east.
Most of it is fantasy land unbelievable stories and places that all gurus are in n sach khand etc etc and then we find out theres a human side to them they make mistakes but we get angry feel misled (due to unrealistic stories) because ..of that SAVIOUR notion.
Let it go and see what happens..
Chy

Hi SP.
lovely description of dera facility...
Boy has it changed much organization for sure...well the numbers have the need.
I will be lost with no cell phone ..ugh...how could I say hello to you bloggers....
Astrally...yes we would know each other if we could know what we look like here...haha.
We dont look like typed words on paper.
The astral body resembles the human form of its current life...has the extension of the mind as well and after physical death for some time possibly until the next incarnation.
So...its very much alive SP and you can use it tune into it..its right there experiencing you at this very moment.
Not too complicated and things just happen.
Im sure babajis lap is full of everybody wanting to sit by the guru..we just dont see them...the ones who are there but not in the body.
Sounds like you and Spence maybe others as well but the 2 of you have fond thoughts to share but different delivery styles..

Hi amar hope all well with you. Long time we haven’t conversed online. 😊 May I ask what form of meditation do you practice now?

Chy with regards to be points you mentioned
Number 1 I don’t see Seva the way you mentioned. I know of many people around me who do seva to get the benefits of Seva here and now not for some return to God. Seva is selfless service, done anywhere selfless service benefits the doer the most and quite immediately. I do Seva in a local hospital and it’s not for an “after death” reward. I do it to be of help to others(this is what my master has taught me) to give and help whenever one can. It helps my meditation and I seriously feel so happy to be able to help someone who needs it. Similarly my father does Seva at the local Satsang center and gets the same benefits in his life and according to him in his meditation As he is immersed in that positive atmosphere during the day.

Point 2
The master is a teacher, a guide, a friend ,a role model. The only one that can save us is ourselves As we live a life within the teachings of the saints.

I agree with most recent comments by Eddie, Amar, Chy and Vijay.
A master may teach/guide us, but each of us are the ultimate guardians of our individual souls. Divinity, holiness, God's presence is in our deeds/actions/Karnee or simple living in harmony with all beings no matter how inconvenient (having courage to to do the right things.)
At time of judgement, we cannot use the excuse that I was simply doing what I was told to do by the higher ups. Or i chose a more convenient path/road over the higher one.
S. Bahadurji really emphasized proper living of a true seeker in spiritual bouquet. He lived what he preached. Hazoor preached love, and lived it as well. I personally don't the incongruity of understand BBJI's life and teachings.
Di

.....I personally don't understand the incongruity of BBji's life and teachings.

Every teacher carries a huge burden. They are the leader of the journey. And the followers have paid with their time and devotion to that teacher. The students are submitting to the teacher because they haven't traversed the path before. They are at a disadvantage to their teacher. So it is impossible for the student to know at first whether their teacher, however appearing to be upstanding, actually understands where they are going or if in fact they have actually been there, or whether they are falsely leading ignorant students.

The very fact that the student knows they don't know and are submitting to instruction reflects their vulnerability and their sincerity.

Teachers carry a huge responsibility therefore.

It can't be helped.

But there are those who say "It's the student's responsibility to make up their own mind." Fair enough. But when those students, after having submitted, and are now in a better position to make their own decision, see their teacher isn't really helping them, then that is a fact.

To go back and further criticize the student and claim it is all their own fault is hypocrisy. The teacher may not actually be doing their job. That must always be a possibility, to be objective.

It is only the students fault for continuing down that path that is yielding nothing for them. If they have tried sincerely, with full effort, for an extended period, then they did their part, and the failure is entirely on the teacher's shoulders.

When some of those who are happy with their teacher cannot use information to make a judgment, it is those people, the ones criticizing the struggling students, who are actually ignorant.

Most problematic are those classrooms where the teacher is most suited to some students, who make a lot of progress, but not to others, who have a very hard experience.

It is appropriate for the one who have tried and failed to find a more suitable teacher. It can be rightly said that the teacher, while helpful to some at one level, has failed they others.

When so many fail, you have a poor teacher.

Everyone should be honest enough to acknowledge that it isn't working, and to find a more suitable learning environment.

We blame because we have invested great time and the teacher hasn't met their responsibility to us. That's legitimate.

Any teacher who acts as though they can do no wrong is a bad teacher. That is not only inaccurate but harmful.

Dear Spence,

You say the following

I - "But when those students, after having submitted, and are now in a better position to make their own decision, see their teacher isn't really helping them, then that is a fact."

SP: So is it a case that the student has transformed into an all knowing entity that he can see that his/her teacher isn't really helping him huh? People have absolutely no idea the shit a PML takes on when he initiates a soul and thereby provides a surety that he will escort the soul to his true home.
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II - To go back and further criticize the student and claim it is all their own fault is hypocrisy. The teacher may not actually be doing their job. That must always be a possibility, to be objective.
It is only the students fault for continuing down that path that is yielding nothing for them. If they have tried sincerely, with full effort, for an extended period, then they did their part, and the failure is entirely on the teacher's shoulders.

SP: I find it shameful on the part of a student (if he believes he still is one) to pass any kind of judgement on his master/teacher. A student does his part trying sincerely with full effort for an extended period - so he basically does what he has been told is necessary to progress. Extended period - summing up of what's extended period is just a few thousand hours ya. And you think these few thousand hours is a "wow factor" in your souls time-line? Grow up Spence. NOBODY has it in him to account for his karmas and/or reach back to his true home. Its the Master who decides when a soul is ready. So lets cut out the finger pointing towards the Master. HE KNOWS BEST and you as a soul/disciple know a shit about when you are ready to experience progress.

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III - Most problematic are those classrooms where the teacher is most suited to some students, who make a lot of progress, but not to others, who have a very hard experience.

SP: Again nobody is in any position to judge others position/progress because nobody has any knowledge of another soul. So do not fall into this trick of the mind.
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IV - It is appropriate for the one who have tried and failed to find a more suitable teacher. It can be rightly said that the teacher, while helpful to some at one level, has failed they others.
When so many fail, you have a poor teacher.

SP - my friend in the first place nobody is equipped to succeed. Added to this is the load of your karma accumulated since you left your true home. Have any idea what any ones account would look like huh? In Santmat the master cares about only one level - your true home. And this journey will have expressways and dusty roads. Not to forget traffic lights. So your travel speed will depend on your relative position.
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The rest of the post again is a poor judgement call by you. If you accept that you are a piece of shit (and we all are due to our karmas) and the master is individually working on with the least amount of effort on our part to make us worthy of the One, you wouldn't be surprised and start questioning the master if you don't find results coming your way in this lifetime. The path isn't about just one lifetime for almost all of us.

Do your research before getting into a path. No point poking your nose into multiple paths: for the core teachings will be the same. The key is who the Master is. GSD is a remarkable multi-faceted personality (externally and in public). In private you can't miss feeling the holiness. Yes externally he is currently embroiled in controversies. But who are we to question or judge him? Would you like him to start questioning and judging us forget as a spiritual guru even basis our deeds and karmas current and past lives?

Cheers,

Hi SP
You wrote
"SP: So is it a case that the student has transformed into an all knowing entity that he can see that his/her teacher isn't really helping him huh? People have absolutely no idea the shit a PML takes on when he initiates a soul and thereby provides a surety that he will escort the soul to his true home."

If you have no idea, why presume the Master is right and the student is wrong? Perhaps it is the onlooker who does not fully comprehend the pain of your brothers and sisters. Perhaps, if not the Master's fault, then it is you who have failed to reach out. Perhaps there is the third responsible person, the brother or sister Satsangi.

But if you cannot make a decision, even with your limited understanding, that seems to me an utter failure. What use is any knowledge of you refuse to use what is presented to you, simply because it isn't infinite?

You are already making a decision on limited information. You are choosing to blame the Satsangi and defend the Master.

Could this be an easy way out for you?

But I suggest that if you choose to love your Master in spite of other's experience, and public records of less than admirable behavior, that you must take that the whole way. That means you elect to withdraw from judging anyone at all. Just accept that those who call themselves exers might not have had you done your job better as a brother. And had you been more b direct with your Master, perhaps he would also have avoided leaving the path.

For just as there are exers here, that can only be if the one you call Master is also an exer himself.

To believe you don't have the full picture in order to continue to accept a Guru who is visibly flawed may work for you. But you don't know enough to impose v that on anyone b else. If that works for you, if that is how you make progress, I honour it. But just for you.

For those who cannot follow someone whom evidence shows has not acted by the vows, I honour that also. That's also a good decision.

Baba Ji is an exer. Just deal with it.

One more point, SP
There are people who leave the path because the meditation becomes unbearable. They can't deal with it. They can't sit and enjoy just being there, just letting the Simran roll on and on (for Master is actually the one doing it. Simran is really listening, but not everyone listens well or for long.)

They claim they have had zero experiences, or simply faint ones, even after decades of effort.

I think those people deserve a gold medal. Who could keep trying day in and out without any results? It's almost unfathomable.

I have never had anything like that kind of discipline. To go even a few days putting in hours of effort and no result? No connection? That would be a nightmare. I couldn't keep it up. And I can't survive a day without Master. A few moments are torture. So if those of us on the path are so weak, as I am, and those who get nothing from meditation have applied an iron will, they are my betters.

So when anyone has done that, and they finally conclude this isn't working for them, I say they have earned their place in heaven, give them a medal, and let them go and do as they wish. Including Baba Ji. We've all tortured him enough, especially his most devoted children.

"Never met a non Punjabi in your life and nobody has heard to now most in India ....... What a shame. But it's ok.

Keep posting!!

Spend a lot of time in India huh.... LOL."

Yes, SP. In India, it's mostly in the Punjab and Delhi region where RS is well known, I assume because RSSB is larger than the other sects. So most Indians don't know know what RS is. An even more insignificant number of non-Indians know.

Why did that confuse you or seem like I was changing my story? RS is a small religion. I'm sorry to break it to you that the entire earth isn't bowing to your guru.


And, yes, I go to India pretty much every year. I'm an OCI holder via marriage.

Well to top it all off.
Really until we have full awareness which let me assume nobody has the full picture on all levels...
Then all of us satsangi or non satsangi including those that say they have denounced the RS system.
We dont know where we really are where we will be tomorrow and if we got initiated or dumped it later if we have that choice.
Folks we may not have the choice to know if we can in fact dump the master...
Sooooo keep it simple on the winding razors edge and go one day at a time..
It doesnt matter if babaji is the master or a fallen master or a sound businessman who grew the organization beyond belief...none of that matters.
He hasnt hurt you hes done nothing wrong to you. So if his situation makes you think to stop meditating...well your mind won here for sure. Come on all we all can grow up here and keep doing our best irregardless of what babaji does. Hes a moment in time not an eternal material world entity. His physical life here is an illusion a distraction from our inner work.
Yes hes the master who came to teach us what Im saying here...razors edge folks razors edge.... Get on up the ladder...
Who suffers from you stopping meditation and doing other things?

..not babaji.

All in how we look for excuses to let OURSELVES fail..
Chy

"Jesse.
Im half slav as well....not that it matters but its around."

Priviit gospodin Chy! Kak dela?

It matters more than you think. Genes are way more important than we like to admit.

About my prediction of unrest, of course I would hate to see it happen too, and it'd be much worse were it to spread outside the org itself, but these babas bring it on themselves and their supporters. The scale of the sangats is unnecessary and they are totally unprepared for the corresponding social complications that arise from allowing it to grow this large.

You see that area as being all blissed out in the 70s and 80s, but that's when the big terrorism surge started in Punjab. Maybe in the walls of the dera things were fine, but just outside there were many who wanted to not only kick out RS, but any heretical Sikhs or non-Sikhs. Charan stopped giving satsang to westerners there for a while and held them in Delhi instead.

A certain degree of that sentiment still exists today, and if I could understand Punjabi I'd find the hukam (fatwa) from Akal Takht (Sikh highest authority) in circa 2008 calling for the expulsion of all deras and their members from the Punjab. I'd fear that clash between the ISIS-like faction of faux Sikhism and RS et al far more than RS vs cops after a Gurinder arrest or something.

Jak Tam? Jesse...

We can chat on this heritage if you like.

My mothers side long history...
Her father and a vegetarian was a disciple of paramahansa yogananda...when she was young. She was born in late 1920s.
Wont be too factual publically here..nothing personal..
Her mothers side not into Indian things came from the old country and had been lawyers and classical symphony musicians.
Now then mother was always metaphysical. We had no organized religious background until I was 10 and master Charan took the stage...

My father not slavik...early american 1750 and prior and the other of him British Isles mix.
He got initiated in 1990 on the day master died..he flew to Utah with Devries rep and when he entered the initiation room Devries was just falling apart and came in and said the word just came in that the master just died...but all those approved for initiation were his children and to continue on with the initiations for those signed by the master for.
De vries had to keep it all together and go through the process...
I knew mr. Devries and then wife quite well personally for many years...he was a very devoted satsangi. They both dud a lot of work for the master.

On the next note the email you mentioned the strifes possible around the Dera...I can see what you mean...we do wish for the best in any case....lots of disciples with varied opinions and approaches to spirituality.
Chy

Spence,

It's entirely your call if you wish to give up and abandon the path - which simply assures a homecoming (but not the timing, for that depends upon our checkered history). Nobody is going to plead with you to return. If you think individuals who abandon the path for not experiencing progress when they believe they should, deserve gold medals and a place in heaven you are welcome to your beliefs.

But if you end up leaving many other paths for the very reason (lack of perceived progress) what then?

Wonder what irrefutable proof you hold basis which you conclude that you have made 'no progress' despite decades of sincere effort.

On the spiritual journey back home there is only one onlooker who can see your position relative to the destination, the adequacy of the effort and to date progress and that's the Almighty. It's upto him when he simply plucks you from your current relative position and places you besides him.

In the interim we have been repeatedly told keep up your effort and 'stay in his divine will'.

Putting a master at fault because you think you deserved more (because of your efforts) (and this holds true for anything and everything)is not being in the divine will.

You say If you have no idea, why presume the Master is right and the student is wrong?

SP: how with some supposed but unsubstantiated knowledge do you do the same..... not presume but squarely lay the blame on a master.

You also say To believe you don't have the full picture in order to continue to accept a Guru who is visibly flawed may work for you.

SP: so despite not having the complete picture and By your own admission you haven't progressed to see the Guru, it's ok to conclude about the adequacy or inadequacy of a Master/teacher?

Did you choose a path/philosophy or the person who sits on the stage or heads an organization? Tomorrow your worst enemy becomes the successor - will you abandon the path? I get a strong sense that despite your decades of sincere effort you haven't been able to even in a small measure see through the ways of the deceitful mind. Alternately if GSD comes out clean will it be a case of The Faith Returns??

On the last portions of your second post

If you agree to the mind is the biggest enemy to God realisation, whose cause are you taking up here - the minds or the soul's?

Think Spence. Like I said we all are not equipped to realise God. It's the way the dice been rolled. We all are weak and ignorant. Keeping the faith is all we have and putting in our feeble efforts is all that we can do. No effort of ours is or will ever be adequate.

Cheers


I've never met a non Punjabi in my life who has ever heard of radha soami.

Nobody has heard of them let alone agrees about their "pure spiritual character."

August 17 10:19am


I spend a lot of time in India and most people there don't know even what radha soami is, or they confuse it with one of the million other guru cults.

August 19, 05:32pm

From nobody having heard of RSSB to most people not knowing RSSB is the shifted position.

Now, RSSB isn't a religion. It never has been and has never claimed or expects it to be treated as one.

RSSB is small - Of course it is and have seen it even as a fraction of current size. The good part - Can't demand of God to increase the lot size of souls he wants back with him.

Chy,

Yes there are a couple of joints at Beas Station which serve reasonably ok pizzas - definitely not using a variety of exotic cheeses. But good enough.

Paneer tends to be integral to Indian cuisine. Indianising the menu is a lesson learnt by foreign chains too. But sans paneer options available.


Amy's is available inside Dera at the Coffee Shop - which is open for Residents, their families and Sangat staying at certain hostels.

Hi Di.
Well dont know you too well but my sense of you is a very gentle sort of M. Charan kind of way...simple and going with the flow of love and compassion as a means to return to the awareness of the father. How you will go this route rather than the analytical mental approach.
My opinion.
Keep chuggin' its all right and good.
Keep it simple.
We arrive by different means due to our conditioning and gifts of this lifetime..
Chy

Hi SP
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
I haven't left the path at all. You are confused on that point.
But I have great compassion for those who consider themselves exers.
I don't think it is wise to blame them. Master chose them, right?
And as far as using common sense, well, when had any Master suggested otherwise?

Even Baba Ji would agree that we should all obey the law, be responsible, pay our bills, and do what we can to help each other. It's part of the stable atmosphere for meditation.

When you can see for yourself that I'm as legitimate a Satsangi as you are, and as every single exer displeased, on grounds of morality, witnessed instances of unkindness, and objectivity, with various incidents at Dera and by other representatives of RSSB, then I don't think you have fully allowed Shabd to capture your soul.

Because once it does, then all these distinctions become arbitrary and insignificant. What becomes sacred is our duty to objective truth and compassion, and our connection to each other.

This is what allows any sincere soul to say to Baba Ji, as a brother, "please pay your delinquent bills, brother, and let me know how I can help you."

Hi SP
You wrote
"On the spiritual journey back home there is only one onlooker who can see your position relative to the destination, the adequacy of the effort and to date progress and that's the Almighty. It's upto him when he simply plucks you from your current relative position and places you besides him."

If only one onlooker, then that would have to be you, right? And if you are not an onlooker, isn't that like a driver not paying attention to the road?

I share with you a belief in a greater consciousness. But I would never use that to judge another person inadequate.

That's where belief slips into prejudice.

You wrote
"It's entirely your call if you wish to give up and abandon the path"

Here you are mistaken. I'm a practicing Satsangi.

But your idea of the path, while popular, is a foreign from mine.

In the version I hold as Truth, we all honor each other's perspective and do what we can to help each other, not by shame, but encouragement.

If someone tries their best and gets no results they are following Sawan Singh's own instructions if they seek another way. And if they find something more truthful, they follow Great Master's instructions by reporting that.

By this definition Brian Ji is a better Satsangi, a real Guru, not the horseshit ones who dress in ancient costume, than the rest of us, and we should pay serious attention when Guru Ji drags us from our superstitious and harmful beliefs into objective reality. He is the Lord 's bulldozer, SP.

That's actually Sant Mat as the Saints teach, not the religion of RSSB superstition and blind faith that has nearly completely overtaken by a self - serving Sangat leadership, aided by the current Master's financial misadventures and dalliances with fraud.


And SP, one more point about a real Sat Guru.
They are responsible for the entire creation, not just initiates. Anyone who sees them and believes is already bound for the highest heaven.

To add a requirement of Initiation is to place a barrier between the almighty and his/ her creation. Initiation is a human made artifice that by it's own existence places RSSB at a distance from the Almighty. Every person rejected for initiation is a living testimony to the fact that this is not the highest way to the One.

That is why you will never see membership vows or dues here at CoC. Everyone is welcome here, so long as they follow basic rules of civility. Even aliens from other worlds, if they can learn English and figure out how to use a keyboard with their tenticles, are welcome to share their own issues and beliefs here.


"Keep chuggin' its all right and good.
Keep it simple.
We arrive by different means due to our conditioning and gifts of this lifetime..Chy"

I fully agree with your statement Chy.
I will take the simplicity of love, equality, and brotherhood of mitti seva under the gaze of hazoor anyday over the current complexities of doing seva. What is the point? In my opinion, it is not only taking us away from spiritual success, but also robbing us of our humanity.
And only BBji can redirect the ship.
Di

.
Compromises are ok, but compromising our humanity is not-all is lost.

Hazoor: we have to live in this world with courage/bravery.
BBji: we shouldn't become doormats.

Hi Di.
Right on SIMPLE !! MITTI SEVA....
Chy

Spence--
Tentacles! Lol

Spence, you say

one more point about a real Sat Guru.
They are responsible for the entire creation, not just initiates. Anyone who sees them and believes is already bound for the highest heaven.

Two parts here. So the second bit you mention has merit - so it's not only the ones who see and believe but a darshan by even a non believers slots him into what old timer satsangis will call aunkari jeev. This holds true for even plants and animals. I am told the grass a PLM walks upon and crushes is fast tracked to meeting a perfect master.

But unfortunately unless you are destined to, you will not get a PLM's darshan.

Are they responsible for the entire creation - certainly not.

If it were to be the case, then there has been no dearth of PLM's just in the past few centuries itself who were more than capable of herding us and all other life forms back to our true home. But that hasn't happened and we are all stuck in here for zillions of years.

Each comes for his marked lot.

This is not to say, they don't help the prevalent sufferings. Certainly they do.

There is a hymn which states

Sant na hote Jagat mein, jal marta sansar

ie if PLM's weren't present in this world, the world would burn down.

But this is quite different from the responsibility they take on vis a vis the initiates.

SP you wrote: " I am told the grass a PLM walks upon and crushes is fast tracked to meeting a perfect master."

Nice story. Might have to come back 4 times before that happens: Next time as a weed, then a tulip, then a rose, then...?

We laugh at our young children who still believe in Santa Claus who's going to slide down the chimney and leave gifts for them. Or the tooth fairy who leaves a dollar under your pillow for the tooth that fell out. These stories keep us happy and pass on a tradition. If you start believing these things about grass being stepped on by a "PLM" and it will soon meet a "prefect" master, then I've got some swamp land in Florida that would be perfect for golf course. You can plant all the grass your heart desires.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, personally, but don't try passing it on as fact to bolster your position, by unsubstantiated claims you cannot verify.

Hi SP
You've done a decent job reflecting Sant Mat theology, but again this is a chosen system of belief, faith in a system that is largely caste-adapted.

What we discover within, while similar, is not at all the same.

Sant Mat is a man made system. Sawan Singh once said that Sant Mat meditation is like a man-made electric generator compared to the power of the creation, which is like a thunder storm.

The two are different in degree, and one is generated artifically with the hope of bringing us closer to the other.

Someone asked if there we perfect Masters in America and Maharaji said such souls are everywhere and have been coming all along but we aren't ready to see them in this culture. It isn't as rare an event as you believe it to be.

Unfortunately, the culture in India isn't ready either. They only recognize a soul as a teacher if he lives in a nice villa and has a chauffer and a large following, or is appointed by the same. Lineage is everthing in India, as part of a culture of caste. But it means nothing, zero, zed, to the emergence of realized souls. And they are doing their work anyway. That's the natural method, the true thunder storm.

But at the end of the day, SP, you and I can only discuss differences of theological belief. And when for either of us that develops into true experience it isn't transferable and must be couched in terms of principles of theology.

For example, Karma. We think Karma is based on action. But it isn't. What you carry with you are the impressions. So if you are traumatized by an event, it may affect you much more, and you may be living that trauma life after life. The person who committed the act may not know about it. Some impressions are still there, but nothing that a cold justice would require. They may return in the relative comfort they enjoyed before, as they have been conditioned to, but with some nasty drama to pass through, such as a few years of infamous notariety about financial fraud in an otherwise privileged life.

But at this level we can only have a theoretical discussion and agree to disagree on points of what we choose to believe.

... And so, SP, when, for whatever reason, people are drawn to complain, there is a much deeper history, one that should be honored, if the goal is to help everyone get past it.

Finally, SP, on a third point, a position of authority is necessary in an organization, so that many people follow with reasonable obedience despite their personal feelings. They learn to put those aside.

But in spirituality, authority of any kind is a barrier. True Saints refuse power and position of any kind, because at this level, that is a barrier. God is the only authority. Or in Atheist language, the Creation is the only and absolute authority.

So when you come into contact with one, whether you understand it or not, they will never be regarded as a teacher. If you speak with them, it is soul to soul, no barriers.

Most of their work is facilitation, ,and far less teaching.

The world functions because in fact they are always here and in several places. They are compelled from within to do the right thing, fuck authority. Their boss is their own soul.

There are a few in the Sangat. Go to the very back row, or better still, the Sevadars standing behind that last row, out in the hot sun in the field, where the loudspeakers barely reach, beyond the metal shade, or in the auditorium, standing against the pillar behind the chairs. Among those.

Among the ones cleaning the toilets, vacuuming the floors, sweeping the tiles. The true saints among them aren't doing it for any special benefit. While there are some who do that work to gain Guru's favor, the few Saints doing those jobs are there because It's the only honest work, the cleanest work in the organization. The other jobs are covered in the shit of ego and pride. They avoid them. However they have great empathy for those. Because people are seeking sanctuary, solice, wherever they can find it.

To the Saint, a drug addict is in much the same predicament as a religious devotee. Both need some help dealing with reality.

Now Gurinder, Shivinder, Malvinder, Gurikreet, and the whole lot look upon those Sevadars, nameless initiates and visitors at the back differently. Where once they felt pride in all that devotion, in the size of the organization, now it's different. Now they are envious. They wish their shoulders carried as light a weight as those. And they are beginning to see that there may be a true Saint or two among those sitting at the back, whether Sevadar, initiate or simple visitor. Those are fleeting moments, where a ray of light breaks through the otherwise impenetrable covering of self - confidence and self - justification. Where every dollar of charity made public with pride to justify their nisdeeds is actually another brick in their own prison wall.

Perhaps freedom will come in their next life.... A simpler life of pure devotion.

Maharaji used to say that there must be bricks at the bottom for their to be bricks at the top.

Any good bricklayer will tell you that the bottom has the strongest steel reinforced blocks.

In any light earthquake the first bricks to topple are the ones at the top, and often those are merely cosmetic.

The ones at the bottom are actually holding up the entire building.

When a major earthquake hits, as is part of the natural cycle, it is the steel reinforced concrete blocks buried deep in the very foundation of all buildings, that will be the only visible remains in a field of ruin.

@ spence .

Do you think he feels empathy ? The big man?

There is a reason I am asking.

Hi Arjuna
Once when I was cooking my then 8 year old son drew a picture of me, and in that picture was Baba Ji, with turban, looking over my shoulder and smiling at Sam. It was a sardonic smile, as if the two of them shared an inside joke, and I was the butt of the joke.

I asked Sam who that was, and he said "Your Master".
My Master is Maharaji, actually. I inquired further. "Where did you get his picture from?".

And Sam replied, "He was standing right behind you, Dad."

That is compassion.

Arjuna, if you would ask me … the answer would be .. NO … they cannot, they have not.

Does this mean they are "lacking" something ...NO .. they certainly don't.
Nobody would benefit from them if the would show it.

IF … the react … again … IF at all … they show you the least desired, wanted, thought of, direction to take....they show you the "small way" as I came to name it.

I wrote a personal experience but deleted it as it is not needed

Listen with a cup of tea to some Q&A sessions of his uncle, Don't focus on the issues that are presented but on how he answers. After a while you will certainly discover an pattern and that will open you eyes. You will understand that they cannot react in that position as you would aspect a good friend or family member and yet they care for you but in an other unexpected way.

This is a personal observation on my part. If you or somebody else feels that i am looking through teinted glasses, it might crtainly be the case.

Spence nice story about your son.

I asked you this before and will ask again. If you find out that Babaji has had nothing (absolutely) nothing to do with the whole financial issue(I believe this is what is bothering you the most). And blame was pinned on him by those around him.How would you react?

Amar,

So are you entitled not to believe. What you hoard as your beliefs and what you discard, doesn't make a damn difference to the creation, the rules that govern it and the advantages/benefits an association with a PLM bestows.

Btw, this was the reply I got to a question I posed to a known enlightened personality in Dera years ago (Hazur's time). But thanks for your views. Much appreciated even though you unfortunately are a feeble source on such matters.

You asked a rose..... Then?

Then...you Amar.

Gosh how come your super intelligence betray you.

Spence,

You say,

I- Sant Mat is a man made system.

SP: I see it as a system made for mankind

II - Someone asked if there we perfect Masters in America and Maharaji said such souls are everywhere and have been coming all along but we aren't ready to see them in this culture. It isn't as rare an event as you believe it to be.

SP: Wonder what is it that I said that conveys I believe enlightened souls is a rare event. Through my 50+ years of life I have had the privilege of being associated with many enlightened and some very enlightened individuals apart from Hazur and GSD. Of course all within India.

Also Maharaji's answer is remarkable. Hopefully you saw the shift from Perfect Master to such souls. Bottom line many enlightened souls but most not tasked the role to play master.

This is pretty much well known by a majority of Satsangis in this not so evolved Indian culture ya.....

III- Unfortunately, the culture in India isn't ready either. They only recognize a soul as a teacher if he lives in a nice villa and has a chauffer and a large following, or is appointed by the same. Lineage is everthing in India, as part of a culture of caste.

SP: I am compelled to use the following words. What an arrogant display of ignorance Spence.

In India, we even worship trees, animals, reptiles, idols and including a unique God with an Elephant's head. Doesn't make us Children of a lesser God.

Nobody has the right to undermine or mock anybody's faith (including that of a child who the likes of Amar laugh at for believing in some Santa or Fairy). And the amazing thing about the faith of such Indians is it's rock solid unlike the bunch we have in here. And don't worry most of them have reasons to complain (for if money rules as somebody commented most Indians are certainly rich).

Oh yes one other bit - these objects of worship (their master) do not have large villas, swanky cars etc etc. And this cuts across castes that you think the Indian society is built around.

To be continued...........

Hopefully this gets published.

Spence said,

Baba Ji is an exer. Just deal with it.

First the believers will not let exer's have him as part of their group.

Second and more importantly..... If Babaji is an exer then you must be Hazur Charan Singh.

Spence,

Your explanation about karma; would you be kind enough to share the source could be books, scriptures, Satsangs, hymns etc which position karma in this way.

I've been having a tough time in my attempts to jettison the oft mentioned prarabdh, sanchit and kriyaman karmas.

And also leave you with the following (just a representative list)

1) https://www.rssb.org/2017-02-15.html (words of your Master Hazur ya)
https://www.rssb.org/2010-09-06.html

2) As she(soul) has planted so does she harvest, such is the field of karma. Adi Granth 134

3) As you sow so shall you reap. Goswami Tulsi Das Ji. - Sri Ramcharitmanas 2.218.2

4) A man reaps what he sows: Galatians 6:7

5) For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one of us may receive what is due to us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. - Corinthians 5:9-10


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