Osho Robbins talks with Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Osho Robbins is a frequent commenter on this blog who enjoys asking the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas (RSSB), Gurinder Singh Dhillon, probing questions.

Me, I'm not into gurus anymore. But I realize that many people who visit this blog are interested in what Dhillon has to say. So below is what Robbins shared in several email messages.

Since I was a member of RSSB for thirty-five years, I'm familiar with the organization's traditional teachings and books. Thus I was struck by a seeming contradiction in what Robbins says below.

On the one hand, Dhillon told Robbins that what's important is what the previous RSSB gurus said and what the scriptures say. On the other hand, Dhillon said the guru is only a guide and a teacher.

But that isn't what the traditional RSSB teachings proclaim, including the "scriptures" -- if that is taken to mean the books describing the teachings of the preceding gurus.

Those teachings say that the guru is greater than God, because the guru takes souls back to God, being God in Human Form. The radiant form of the guru (meaning, a supernatural form) guides the disciple through higher regions of reality all the way to Sach Khand, or "heaven."

So it seems to me that the current RSSB guru is trying to have it both ways.

He doesn't claim to be any sort of divine being, yet he refers people to the traditional RSSB teachings -- which DO say that the guru is divine. Even more, those teachings speak of the Perfect Living Master, Dhillon being the current occupant of that title.

I'd find Dhillon to be more believable if he simply said that the traditional teachings are wrong. Anyway, read on for the most recent interchange between Osho Robbins and the RSSB guru.

Today I went to Haynes Park. It’s a week before the national satsang. It was a great opportunity to openly discuss various points without being rushed. I had a very interesting dialogue that answers a lot of points raised by participants in the discussions at Churchless. 

 

Firstly, the notion that “He claims this and that” has to be quashed. If you all wish to validate a claim, ask the person directly, instead of conjecture. 

 

At one point, I said “but YOU say ..........” and he interrupted me. “No, it’s not what I say. I am nobody to say anything. Just see what the previous gurus said and what the scriptures say.”

 

He also said “Please, let’s be clear. I cannot erase your karmas, I cannot do anything for you. I can only guide you and the rest is up to you. The guru is only a guide and a teacher.”

 

Clearly he doesn’t claim to be a “perfect living master” with all the notions that go with that title. 

 

He is making his position clear. If anyone wants to project their beliefs and notions onto that, it’s okay as long as they realise they are making that contribution. It’s their notion, not his. 

 

He also spoke a lot about “going beyond good and bad” and that it has to be your own experience, not something you heard or read. 

 

So the conclusion from this is clear: GSD [Gurinder Singh Dhillon] claims to be a human being. His position is a guide and a teacher. He makes no other personal claims of grandiose. He claims no special powers. He doesn’t claim to be “God in Human Form”.

 

Of course anyone can project anything they choose. It’s a free world. However I am reporting what I heard first hand from the man himself. 

 

Regarding the issue of the money transactions. My view (and it’s just my view as I was not there) is that he is a human being. When did he ever say “I cannot do any wrong”?

 

Wrong and Right are human made up concepts. One society considers the same thing to be “wrong” that another society says is “right". One obvious example is “halal meat.” Sikhs specifically consider it “wrong”.

 

As a human being, if we happen to be in business, not everything is going to be above board. There is corruption inherent in all of society. Anyone who says there isn’t is living in an ideal world that doesn’t exist. 

 

We have a president with serious corruption allegations against him. Doesn’t make him an “evil” person. 

 

All this only becomes an issue if you first project the status of “perfection” onto the guru. And when he fails, he is now condemned for not being perfect. 

 

Reminds me of a conversation I had with David Lane in London long ago about Charan Singh in the video “Satguru”. 

He feels sleepy, probably jetlag, while giving darshan at Wembley. The sangat thinks “Wow, the Surat is being pulled up by the shabd”.

 

David said “He is just jet lagged and feels sleepy. I can’t lose my faith in him as I only consider him a human being”. First you project perfection onto a person then complain when he shows he is not “perfect”. Nobody is.

 

I also addressed the topic of the master coming at death

 

Me: You ask people to meditate but then take away the reward (guru coming at time of death) so now it becomes nishkaam because no reward.

 

GSD: Forget about me. The previous gurus and the scriptures say that the creator will come and take care of his souls, but will we recognise him?

 

Me: But no god can come because there is only the ONE.

 

GSD: Yes that is true, again its words. No god will come because he has already come. He is ever present. He doesn’t come and go. But at our level we cannot understand this, so scriptures and gurus use the language we understand. In reality no guru comes or goes, it’s a figure of speech.

 

Me: Kabir says, Jab hum hoti tab him nahin. So the meeting never happens. Either I am or god is, never together. No meeting

 

GSD:  Yes, that is true once you realise that it is all the play of the ONE. We don’t do anything, he is the doer. But at this level, and until we realise for ourselves, we continue to act

 

His perspective is that although the ONE is the truth, we have to start with where we are, otherwise we cannot understand.

 

Hence the reason he says “meditate” and also says the meditation is just to tire you out until you surrender. He says the meditation will not get you there, but do it without any desire for reward. Nishkaam.

 

Which is impossible to do because we always seek the reward. So it’s a method to take you beyond the ego. 

 

Osho Robbins

 

Gurinder Singh Dhillon

Comments

[Chy]

Hi SP
you appear to have a very dreamlike way of experiencing many things.
The special grass the master walks on that if you see or walk there as well means you could be marked.

Now none of this is logical or can we know if its going to be right or happen its all on faith and hope.
Things of the other side will never make sense here in 3d physical world.
BE AWARE.
My wish for you is that you can understand that if its in the imagination, then its REAL somewhere and these impressions you get are gifts from the higher dimensions .
Everything here is dense and what you see is what you get.
You are being gifted with these impressions and things like this that you read and remember. Stories of miracles interesting serendipities as 777 writes about.
SP all of this IS REAL. You are gifted with awareness of the subtle dimensions of this universe.
Dont lose it...
Keep moving into it. In time new illusions will surface.
We are given what we can handle ....
Chy

[Amar]

SP, you wrote: "What you hoard as your beliefs and what you discard, doesn't make a damn difference to the creation, the rules that govern it and the advantages/benefits an association with a PLM bestows."

Has nothing to do with your perceived supremacy of Sant Mat dogma. I don't hoard any beliefs. I question because I have the right to question. I have the right to call bullshit on statements that are unverifiable which people like you state as fact when you have no way of verifying.You're not the only one who understands the teachings. Try corroborating these fantasy statements with something, anything.

You can't just quote other people or what's written in books and say it's true. Anyone can write a book. Look at L Ron Hubbard. He wrote Dianetics. Made shit up and charges people more and more money to have higher experiences. People will believe anything written in a book.

Prove it.

[Amar]

SP, you wrote: "I've been having a tough time in my attempts to jettison the oft mentioned prarabdh, sanchit and kriyaman karmas."

You have no idea what you're writing. How can you possibly know what kind of karma is what? "Jettison" What does that even mean? You make it sound like you have control over this. Charan Singh said you have no idea what karma you're undergoing or what "store house" of karmas you have. GSD says karma isn't what you think it is. So stop pretending to know anything about this.

[SP]

Well Amar keep questioning..... Keep stamping stuff as bullshit. Afterall it's your right.

Won't suggest how valuable time can be better spent.

Perceived supremacy of sant mat dogmas - na. After all it's just a third grade Bollywood movie script. Worthless, a pack of lies, a mean to misguide people.

But

just as I calling you a donkey doesn't make you a donkey, You disbelieving what's in the books doesn't make what's stated therein untrue.

Want proof - well first become worthy of getting it.

In the meanwhile

continue bullshitting (you do a good job) - leave it to you however you want to interpret what I mean here.

And do keep laughing at others beliefs especially children's in Santa and some Fairy. Adds shine to your personality.

If you feel offended happy to not address it.

[Amar]

SP, last time as a response: by you believing what's written does not make it true either. Believe what you want, I really don't care. If you truly believe what you believe in, good for you. Why do you care what me, Spence or anyone else says? Maybe you're here to see your ego spread across the blog. Always question your own beliefs, or you end up with a bunch of yes people.

By the way, it takes an enlightened person to recognize another enlightened person. If you say you are enlightened, by the very nature of you saying it, negates that.

Keep pretending to know everything.

Good day and happy life to you my friend!

Cheers!

[SP]

Amar,

So then Oh Enlightened One please educate the likes of me about Karma.

Need your Gyan and not what Hazur said or GSD says and also not what religious scriptures say and results of Google search ya....

And a small request - keep it simple for it's for an individual with limited intelligence which is also reflected in the incoherent posts. Couldn't make a shit out of what Spence said in one of his posts about these being impressions.

I believe you, that GSD tells you'll Karma isn't what you all think it is. Maybe it's the condition of the people he addresses that makes him say this.

Back in India he does throw light on what Karma is and for me and my spouse personally, he has on one occasion spent probably 30 minutes, taking pains to explain about what karma and karma theory is all about.

But happy to hear your piece too and even Spence's (already requested him) - so long as it's your own and not borrowed stuff.

Also seek another piece of advice from you

Should I start questioning my beliefs in RSSB - especially if the end result despite the numerous private interviews/interactions with Hazur and GSD with some stretching over an hour, and having unlimited access to individuals acknowledged as being enlightened the end result is such gross ignorance/lack of understanding within me.

Will I be a worthy exer?

PS:

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen from Austin
You asked
"I asked you this before and will ask again. If you find out that Babaji has had nothing (absolutely) nothing to do with the whole financial issue(I believe this is what is bothering you the most). And blame was pinned on him by those around him.How would you react?"

I'm responding to the mountain of information now. It's only because of that information, it's objectivity, and repeated verification. We probably have about 60% of the story.

As new information arises, naturally, as the whole picture becomes more complete so will my and your understanding, and we can come together in agreement, if we are both willing to acknowledge the facts ss they arise.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
This can only be a discussion in theory about theology until you see for yourself, but Maharaji tells you about how Karma works when he says it is association of the mind only. These are as he said "deep karmic impressions." The impressions are made on your own mind, those are your impressions, whether conscious or unconscious. Only after Trikuti are they washed away for good, at least enough to keep you from returning, though some are still there even after Trikuti (see Spiritual Discourses Vol 1, Q 120. and Q 237, and more about the Sanskaras, Q 263).

The mind carries all the impressions, even the sinchit (storehouse) Karmas, the Pralabdh (fate) you must go through in this life, and even those Karmas you create (Kriya) in this life. It's all in your mind. Actions do contribute to the impressions because you experience them, but the Karma is the impressions, not the actions.

"I've lived through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened."
Mark Twain

Even the things that didn't happen, but which caused you distress, or joy, are karmic.

You don't see it in normal wakeful conscious state, but it's there, even much deeper than the subconscious. You see it in deep meditation. And when you can't sit in meditation, it's the Sanskaras pushing back at you, like a living creature.

Work that off through meditation, wash it through Shabd, let Master fly you through the utter darkness of Maha Sunn, through the nauseating immense dark curving tunnel of bank nal, and their hold is pretty much gone. Of course so is all the fear and lust necessary to function competitively in this place. So be careful what you beg for.

You refer to the Bible and Paul teaches the same message in Hebrews about the impressions of the mind, that sacrifices don't get rid of them, only the power of the Spirit (Hebrews 9:9, and Roman's 8:12-14). Hence your Master within, the embodied Word.

Whatever those impressions are, they must be paid. But they don't work the same as the legal system. Generally the victim has the strongest impressions and must deal with those life after life, until those impressions can be replaced, worn away, or simply washed away with Shabd. The one committing the act also has to go through their own proclivity to theft, violence, lust, greed, etc, which these acts can never satisfy, and feed like an addiction. That addiction brings you back. The desire for retribution brings you back. But so does the trauma and grief. Your own Karmas may bring you back in the same role once again.

[Spence Tepper]

One more point SP, referring to your cousin of Paul on Galatians, you reap what you sow, not what someone else did to you. Just your own reactions. That can include both anger, grief, trauma and fear. Those are seeds you sow, your own impressions. You may blame others for their harm, but your Karma is the impression made in you... So this is where most people get confused. They think the act is the Karma, but it is only the impression of makes, your reaction. That's Karma.

[Spence Tepper]

Oops spellcheck..
Meant to write
"referring to your quotation of Paul in Galatians, you reap what you sow, not what you did to others, but the impression you made upon your own mind. Not what others did to you, but what impression you experienced, which you yourself made."

[Jesse]

"So then Oh Enlightened One please educate the likes of me about Karma."

Ok, only because you are my favorite student, here I will share the secret of spiritual cause and effect, my child. Do not share this esoteric knowledge with others.

Karma is utter bullshit.

[SP]

Jesse,

I am so very obliged to you. What profoundness. Will keep it locked away in a secret vault - won't share the address and password with you too.

Btw any proof ? Can't leave that out in the open as well. As your favorite student I demand that I be given the responsibility to safeguard it. My Master, so you better provide it.

LOL

Thanks for the laugh. These stressful days it's hard to even get a smile on somebody's face. You actually made me laugh.

[Anon]

SP why call yourself the worst deciple?

[Jesse]

"SP why call yourself the worst deciple?"

Anon, why are you not deferring to me and seeking supreme knowledge? In this ashram, there is no place for gossip and judgement.

Forget what the other students say.

Focus on master's (my) darshan, and attach yourself to the subtle stream of 2008 dubstep anthems.

[SP]

Anon,

Just being truthful. That's it.

If you have a better word for a disciple who hasn't attended to required meditation even one day since initiation do let me know.

Cheers

[Anon]

SP
Oh I see. Has that changed?