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August 12, 2019

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This is, what I believe, Guru Brian Ji is trying to hammer home in us. -Spence

That is so funny, Master Guru Brian Hines (dr) is neither a guru nor a master nor is he trying to hammer anything home. I don’t think he owns a hammer

Arjuna, council tax is an illegal tax.
You cannot go to prison and it is not enforceable because it’s illegal
They make empty threats hoping you pay
Same as tv licence. Empty threats.

Here’s a link
https://youtu.be/51ReDfXPQ3c

j. Aug.14 2019 1235 pm
Very sweet paragraph entire note.
Takes me backbto the old days of the neptunian idealogies and our hopes and dreams...
Coming back to today...it appears that.
Amar Tim Jesse and Om excuse me Um... I like Om better.... Possibly others not to exclude anyone( sorry if I didnt say your name)....would like babaji to step up and speak himself to the sangats beyond just the one shot if you attend one satsang center...no notes no photos no cameras no recorders...yes it can be annoying BUT the satsangs should be available for purchase ...listen i went to petaluma in 2000 i believe it was and indian women were photographing no one stopped them ...had cameras but we were told we were not allowed to use them...they did and some nasty sevadar grabbed mine and I was not !! taking photos. I grabbed onto my device and did not release it and was not happy about it all either...others had their devices snatched but not everybody many others did not lose theirs.
The sense is if he wants to help everyone grow then many things need to be answered on the physical plane and he needs to be a leader that makes himself available . not just the hindi satsang recordings. I dont understand the secrecy...oh well. Im in pinda still I guess.

All the gurus say they are not masters.

It may be a humility game or so but things are out of joint now and my feeling is babaji should ,can and is able to open up and let people know him ...
This is the time for him to break out of possible fears. Fears allotted to humans and be a brother if not father to many.
He can do it. We are all multifaceted beings with a lot to offer....
Hope Im not offending anyone its not meant to do that. Its meant to really I thank everybody on here for opening their hearts and expressing their hurts joys memories questions angers broken hearts and just being REAL people...thank you all and very much to Brian for holding the space..

Hi Osho!
You asked
"Firstly are there any documents about the loans and terms of repayment?"

Several sources about that, including an article posted by RSSB...

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

And here...

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/-gurinder-singh-dhillon-used-funds-from-ranbaxy-stake-sale-to-buy-real-estate-1551812472511.html

And there's more...

Gurindar sold an RSSB charitable hospital, and all its acreage, to himself, into his private equity company, RHC, run by his son.

https://www.cnbctv18.com/views/the-devotion-of-the-singh-brothers-of-fortis-runs-deep-into-their-businesses-63575.htm

And in this legal document, where a construction company is suing RSSB and Fortis, it is confirmed.

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/87320658/


Worse, we learn that Gurindar had the charitable hospital destroyed, with the understanding that a new RSSB hospital would be built in its place, only to move those 200 acres of property to his private for-profit firm, Fortis, and build a specialty hospital, not a charitable hospital.

And we read of the myriad companies Gurindar has placed family members, including his wife, into principle roles, siphoning illegal loans from Fortis into these through the Singhs.


Here's some additional links to some of the stories in the business press:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

Amar, I believe that the initiation book that Gurinder still uses for us lowly drooling idiots who stubbornly refuse to blindly accept the oneness hypothesis still talks about 4 lives, guru coming to carry us home etc.

The entire schtick of this Gurinder guy sucks. I'd actually prefer a standard guru cult without the childish mind games. If I wanted games I'd go cheat on my wife with a 21 year old woman.

J--
To me Sawan was saying that we shouldn't try to worship a Master as GIHF until we meet Him within and can see for ourselves. Until that time, we can at best relate to Him as we would to an elder brother, friend or benefactor. We should not expect the physical Master to present as GIHF on the physical plane, so I think it's normal for a Master to say he's only a guide and a teacher.

We agree. The passage should not be used to justify a Master in misbehavior (the "because he's God, you just don't see it, you're unevolved and have no right to question His behavior" argument). Instead I think it justifies the disciple in a relaxed and practical approach (just learn your ABC's at first, you can't run before you walk). It's also to say don't run after the physical Master, realize Him within.

The crux of it then is the Master's behavior. Does He act like Mr High-And-Mighty-GIHF or does He guide and teach like an elder brother, friend or benefactor?

@Tim Rimmer

Full stops go inside quotation marks, but sometimes I put them outside. Just for laughs I guess.

Anyway onto the points you raise.
Very detailed comment. Well thought out.

1. GSD cannot just dismiss the previous teachings. Too much history. Will be unbelievable.
Also what will he say is the method then?
Consider 99% of people just want to do seva and a little meditation and hope he comes at death.

2. There is no separated soul BUT
As long as you have the illusion of a separate soul, that is practically where you ARE AT regardless of what is the truth.

Ultimately there are no karmas, however there ARE karmas if you are in the delusion of maya.

Understand this and you unravel the mystery.
Imagine you are dreaming. It all seems real. If you wake up, the dream disappears. But until you awaken, it appears real,

People in duality ask the wrong questions.
E.g. “if light comes into the room, where will the darkness go to?”
The question appears logical. After all it can’t just disappear.
But it does. Darkness is not a thing.

Same with all this. Karmas exist as long as YOU exist. No YOU = no karmas.

But as long as you experience yourself as this body and this mind then you will feel separate and that will be your reality

If you have a 1 million dollar diamond in your pocket but don’t know what it is and think it’s just a stone, it is the same as not having the million dollar diamond.

Until you recognise it, you may as well not have it. Same outcome .

Just telling everyone that it’s all the ONE will not work, they have to start where they are.
The ONE had to be your personal discovery not a teaching so I agree with GSD
Just changing the teaching will not work unless you also drop the meditation and create a whole new technique for realising

He has done the best he can. Continue with the old but sprinkle the new
It’s the only way. It’s not dishonest
In fact he is honest in saying no Guru comes st death
In the dialogue with me he said the creator will come. He acknowledges the truth but only if you are ready for it.
The struggle is necessary first
I spent 40 years in struggle

Thanks Robert Searle, enjoyed your comment, especially about concentration on the subtle energies of higher consciousness.

"Key Claim III ... when the atmosphere becomes electric!! However, what I experience (along with many others) is something far more than this. It is A POWER unlike anything of this world..."

I'm understanding more now about Gurinder talking about Oneness. This is the Oneness that people feel. This magnificent uplifting energy which we can tune into.

Roberts blog 633 am aug 14 2019...

I can understand a lot of what you said or mean relate....
The energies in the ceiling not coming from the satsangis but in the general atmosphere not like electrical charges at a football game or concert.
Also the part about seeing babajis form and the idea of the radiant form being the higher self of you projected into the form of the master....

These are the experiences many have...and are not easily explained away or to be discarded.
The marvelous energy may be the love and devotion mirrored from everyone to the master and reflected back. The higher frequency of those in the group is activated by the higher thoughts in the room unlike the frequency of thoughts at a concert...
Energy is energy but the higher consciousness thoughts being mirrored and bounced off the master and back to the group does give a very float like experience...
Then theres a feeling of coming down when the satsang is over.
The master on the stage is HOLDING THE SPACE for these energy projections...he or she may or may not be a totally self realized soul but has some sort of realization to have made it to the stage ...rather made it to be chosen as a leader.
To say where or what level babaji is really in is not my call...
To say that the divine is using him to destroy RS is something we dont know in pinda consciousness...

One thought is...RS lifestyle and thoughts on how to treat one another and animals and be a good person...if thats all that survives this boom town religion...its a good philosophy and way of life...
I agree a lot on your interpretation of your radiant form experience. I blogged a similar thought.
The mind gives us something that we are conditioned for in our visions to see until we reach the level of pure energy.
Rather than GO ANYWHERE...we become AWARE and the awareness of pure consciousness is the next stages of inner awareness.
Everything is circular so history repeats itself we move in a spiral.
Oshos fish will evolve and be aware of his water while he is immersed in another dimension.
Something like that dear one.
Like your blog.thank you for sharing this.
Chy

Osho you should be relegated to the open forum threads with 777. There's only a very thin veneer of something that resembles the sensical that distinguishes you and 777.

You attempt to establish some of the most absurd motives as if a guy who was involved in poisoning African kids for profit absolutely must have the cleanest heart and best intentions.

And please stop preaching. You're not enlightened. You've realized nothing whatsoever. You're a satsangi who replaced words like sach khand with "oneness."

There is no church of the churchless for the most part. There is the church of siphoning members into new churches.

Hey, wait a minute! When did Baba Ji start talking about the ONE? Before or after publication of Brian Hines' Return to the One: Plotinus's Guide to God-Realization? Is Baba Ji taking a wink with Osho at Brian Ji?

If you understand that we are all part of the same creation, that we are truly brothers and sisters with all creation, then we are One. The same golden rules of conduct should apply to all of us: honesty, humility, helpfulness.

But where you make excuses for misconduct, in yourself or anyone else, for harm, then that is a barrier to personal progress. It is quite antagonistic to universal brotherhood /sisterhood. It is taking not giving. No one should adhere to such a dogma.

That isn't One, it isn't even zero. It's a negative value.

@spence
I read the articles you linked to.
This is what it says
“Some of these facts also emerged from the complaint filed by Malvinder Singh....”

These are allegations only and based on what malvinder is saying. Yes there is a money transfer, but only malvinder claims they were loans.
The order is against malvinder and Shivinder. The requirement to pay has not shifted to Gurinder. Basically malvinder is saying that Gurinder was given loans and “owes me money” so the court has said “pay us rather than malvinder”
Perfectly normal for courts to do that to ensure that malvinder pays what he owes.


The entire schtick of this Gurinder guy sucks. I'd actually prefer a standard guru cult without the childish mind games. If I wanted games I'd go cheat on my wife with a 21 year old woman. - Jesse

We’ll go join Krsna consciousness or Scientology. And go cheat on your wife.
Do you want me to supply the 21 year old woman, or can you find her yourself?

"But where you make excuses for misconduct, in yourself or anyone else, for harm, then that is a barrier to personal progress."

I think its the opposite. The barrier is finding fault and judging self and others. Its an imperfect world and each person has their own personal power and there is no need to either follow another or judge another. We are all on our own personal journey and thats all there is. To do the best we can.

@ Osho.

Everyone pays council tax. You are thinking of poll tax. And yes I know people who have gone to prison or had bailiffs chase them.

Let's not argue. I am right and you are wrong simple this is getting boring now.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"I read the articles you linked to.
This is what it says
“Some of these facts also emerged from the complaint filed by Malvinder Singh....”

'These are allegations only and based on what malvinder is saying'

I'm sorry Osho but your statement is false.

You must not have read the articles.

"Over the years, the brothers’ main holding company loaned about 25 billion rupees ($360 million) to the Dhillon family and property businesses largely controlled by them, according to documents and people familiar with the matter. Some of those outlays were financed with money borrowed from the Singhs’ listed companies, and when combined with other Singh investments gone bad threw their empire into a debt spiral, a Bloomberg News analysis of public records and interviews with 10 people familiar with the finances of both camps showed."

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-16/billionaires-and-the-guru-how-an-indian-family-lost-2-billion

Osho
Here again in the Mint article you missed their own independent audit when you stated erroneously that only Malvinder's testimony is included...

"According to the financial statements of these companies reviewed by Mint, ₹430 crore was received by Best Healthcare from Fortis and Religare group while ₹207.15 crore was advanced to Dhillon’s sons Gurpreet and Gurkirat Singh Dhillon.

"An additional ₹287 crore loan was extended to the Godhwani and Dhillon families out of the ₹496 crore received from Fortis and Religare by Fern Healthcare.

"A sum of ₹223.15 crore was also advanced to the Dhillon family by Modland Wears, ₹152 crore by Adept Creations and ₹8 crore by Rosestar Marketing Pvt. Ltd (cross holding with Green Line)."

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/fortis-fraud-may-exceed-rs-2-000-crore-says-sfio-1550522937932.html

Hi Jen
You wrote
"The barrier is finding fault and judging self and others"

If you cannot find fault, how can you find truth?

If you cannot be wrong, how do you know when you are right?

Is it only what feels good to you?
Is the truth always pleasure?
Have you never learned from the pain of life's teachings?

We all want it handed to us on a platter, like a baby.

But at some point we must stand on our own two feet and use our capacity to think for ourselves.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"The order is against malvinder and Shivinder. The requirement to pay has not shifted to Gurinder."

I'm sorry Osho but this is also false.

"RSSB chief Gurinder Singh Dhillon, wife Shabnam Dhillon, sons Gurkirat and Gurpreet and daughter-in-law Nayan Tara Dhillon are among the 56 entities from whom Delhi HC has ordered recovery of monies Singh brothers-Malvinder & Shivinder-owe to Daiichi. Money will also be recovered from former Religare chief Sunil Godhwani and brother Sanjay Godhwani, according to the Delhi HC order."
...
" Besides the Dhillon family, the Delhi HC is issuing 'garnishee orders' against several Dhillon and RSSB associates' companies, including Prius Real Estate, Addon Realty, Payne Realtors SGGD Projects, Luminous Holding. A garnishee order is an order against a third party to recover money to settle a debt or dues."

...
" Garnishee order prevents these entities from alienating any assets. The dues will now be paid to Delhi HC instead of Singh brothers and their entities to whom it is owed."

Please note this last sentence. The Singh brothers are no longer responsible to pay these amounts to the high Court. That responsibility has been directly transferred off their shoulders and directly onto Gurinder et al.

Also from the same article...

"BusinessToday.In has reported the flow of money from Singh brothers to entities owned and controlled by Gurinder Singh Dhillon - the head of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas - his family and assocites of RSSB. RoC filings and terms sheets say between 2011 and 2014, Rs 1107.5 crore from the Rs 9,576 crore sale proceeds of Ranbaxy to Daiichi Sankyo was paid through RHC group firms RHC Holding Private Limited, Oscar Investment Limited, RHC Finance Private Limited and Fortis Healthcare Holdings Private Limited into two group entities ANR Securities Private Limited and Ranchem Private Limited."
...
" Thereafter, this money was transferred to Prius Real Estate Private Limited controlled by Dhillon family associates and RSSB functionaries through optionally convertible debentures (OCD). The money invested in other Prius group entities called Prius Commercial, Payne Realtors, SVIIT Software and Sharan Hospitality whose preference shares worth Rs 875.53 crore were subscribed to by Prius Real Estate. Both the OCDs and preference shares were to be redeemed between August-November, 2018 at a hefty premium.

"Delhi HC had concluded the hearing on May 28. The written order was issued on June 10."

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html


Osho, please note from Bloomberg


"Both the OCDs and preference shares were to be redeemed between August-November, 2018 at a hefty premium.

"Delhi HC had concluded the hearing on May 28. The written order was issued on June 10."

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html

Baba Ji, please pay your delinquent bills.

Radhasoami Mat and the ONE? Yes, recently I too have been pondering over the connection between Radhasoami Mat, RSSB, Gurinder and the "ONE".

Not the obvious connection questions; Is there even ONE reason to believe Gurinder is a mystic of any sort or "level" whatsoever, let alone a "Perfect Living Master" as defined by RS dogma, or even has any actual personal interest or experience in mystical states of consciousness beyond the fact he was chosen to take over the family business by his uncle, for example?

No, no, no.......I have a far more profound and telling question and connection between the ONE and RS, RSSB & Gurinder, and it is this:

Is there even ONE genuine seeker on the entire planet who is currently believing or following either RS, RSSB or Gurinder? I'm serious, is there ANYBODY out there who isn't over 40 (and given up on the sincere search :), or isn't related to somebody who is over 40 and initiated by RS, who actually believes any of these childish & naive magical myths of the RS doctrine? And, even further to this almost inconceivable notion, the idea that the fraudulent, failed semi-billionaire baba who associates with the rich, famous & powerful (and disgraced) politicians, who's goons are alleged to have made death threats, who demands his RELIGIOUS ORGANISATION build properties in communities they are not wanted by demanding their RELIGIOUS rights, etc etc etc, is an actual & literal personification of the "Perfect Living Master" as defined by that very same RS doctrine?

Just ONE we need, to validate this path didn't die out decades ago as a viable spiritual path? I mean, c'mon.....millions of religious followers world wide, and there isn't a SINGLE independent, genuine seeker - someONE who is ready to sacrifice their life at the drop of a hat in exchange for the "truth" - who thinks RS and/or Gurinder is a viable "spiritual path"?

Come out into to the open, wherever you are......you must surely exist, somewhere. It would almost be a divine seal of disapproval on RS & Gurinder if there wasn't, wouldn't it? I mean, sincere seekers even stumble into and out of "worldly" religions like Christianity, Buddhism etc, it would be a miracle in itself if there was not ONE single sincere and independent seeker associated with RS & Gurinder, wouldn't it?

Come on....where are you? Come, we shall talk as kindred spirits. Ignore all these old cultists and family-based religious followers on this blog, their minds are trapped within magic and myth, the projection of their own infinite Self which they do not understand onto human idols.

Ah, but alas, after having followed these online discussions about RS for more than 2 decades, a most bewildering realisation has dawned on me; there is not even ONE genuine and sincere seeker in RS.

The gurus you deserve ARE corrupt & fraudulent Babas, because your seeking is corrupt.

I think to see what Jen is saying aug 14 2019 10:24pm...

I think men have a special kind of communication with each other...its often times more rough and bouncy and filled with a sense of oneupsmanship...its quite often not with animosity just a masculine style of delivery thats learned for survival in this cold cruel world. . It can sound judgemental but guys sort of banter back and forth. Shove that football around and bang each other up.

Women hit a flowery style sort of wash things down try to soften the edges...(not always and not in politics)
Both ways can be agitating.
Anyway Im doing the woman thing I guess but sometimes some blogs have a sense of really denegrating one another I lose what youre trying to inform .Sometimes its a great laugh too ....:-) and really though youre here in part to share your hearts...so in writing sometimes" send a rose " along with your content...guys like flowers too..youre all really interesting and precious to god and this place this space is to help one another as I see it..
Chy

Manjit,when I stopped going to satsangs the local community had become almost all recent immigrant Indians who'd been born into RSSB. The size of the community seems to be large enough over there that it acts as a normal religion.

In contrast, when I first started, the local sangat was mixed with old timers and seekers from all backgrounds.

This isn't to say that there are zero possible genuine Indian seekers, but being that Americans don't really treat radha soami as an inherited religion, the absence of new Americans makes me think very few people are joining because they feel RS is "the truth."

I'm almost 40 now, and everyone my age left before me.

There is no purity anywhere. It's not just RS. Humans believing in anything at all is the fundamental problem.

@robert Searle
I read your comment in detail just now.

Who is the harjit Singh you refer to?
There was a speaker in the Southall are by that name, but nobody calls him sang.

I consider treasure beyond measure to be charan Singh's way of making his position clear.

I don't think its a matter of Gurinder being an "imperfect" master.

It's a matter of the meaning of a "perfect master" as that title conjures up all kinds of ideas in the mind.

Charan clearly refuted any claim to all knowingness by saying he was unaware of his selection as guru. Same for Gurinder.

Gurinder is saying that he is simply guiding you on the path if you choose this path.

He makes no claims of any powers.

He also says that many of the traditional teachings were never meant to be taken literally.
Such as regions, Lords of regions, kal, even Anami, say purush etc. All just symbolic

Osho said,

Those teachings say that the guru is greater than God, because the guru takes souls back to God, being God in Human Form. The radiant form of the guru (meaning, a supernatural form) guides the disciple through higher regions of reality all the way to Sach Khand, or "heaven." -Brian Hines

Who has and where do the teachings say this?

There clearly is a huge difference between teachings saying the Guru is greater than God and a seeker saying from his perspective he treats his Guru greater than God because the Guru leads him back to his true home.

But even this is sublimely stupid - if God and Guru are the same and all that the Guru does is bring back his quota of souls ( the distinction in physical form only for it's always the shabd which is the Guru)

Spence the suits for siphoning of money is against the Singh brothers and their controlled entities. The suit was filed against them today by fortis.

Jesse wrote
"Osho you should be relegated to the open forum threads with 777. There's only a very thin veneer of something that resembles the sensical that distinguishes you and 777."

Well, well, well, what can I say?
You should be relegated to
£&£?!?%#?!

In the interests of being civil I will leave you to fill in the word.

I have already relegated you, as you may have noticed I rarely reply to your comments as they are not even worth reading, let alone replying to.


The barrier is finding fault and judging self and others. Its an imperfect world and each person has their own personal power and there is no need to either follow another or judge another. We are all on our own personal journey and thats all there is. - Jen

Well said. Who made us judge and jury?
I have enough on my hands dealing with my own faults and issues.

Pointing things out is one thing. Condemning a person is quite another.

Let everyone choose their path. If you don't like it - that's your business. If others choose to follow it that's their business.

I don't see Gurinder begging anyone to follow RSSB.

Hi Anon

Do you have a link?

This is what the SEBI concluded, but that sliphoned money went in large part to Gurinder, family and associates in the form of legally binding loans, and they are delinquent in payment. Those Fortis loans are only part of the story. The loans Shivinder and Malvinder gave Baba Ji et al directly from the sale of Ranbaxy are also the leverage for the high court's order for repayment directly to Gurinder at al on June 10 of this year.

From above...

" Thereafter, this money was transferred to Prius Real Estate Private Limited controlled by Dhillon family associates and RSSB functionaries through optionally convertible debentures (OCD). The money invested in other Prius group entities called Prius Commercial, Payne Realtors, SVIIT Software and Sharan Hospitality whose preference shares worth Rs 875.53 crore were subscribed to by Prius Real Estate. Both the OCDs and preference shares were to be redeemed between August-November, 2018 at a hefty premium.

"Delhi HC had concluded the hearing on May 28. The written order was issued on June 10."

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html

As you can see, these loans, legal and confirmed from independent audit, are linked directly to the Ranbaxy sale, went to Dhillon et al, and are now delinquent. From above, they were due August - November 2018.

This is why the high court placed direct responsibility for their payment onto Dhillon et al shoulders and off Malvinder and Shivinder in their order for payment on June 10.

But as to the criminal aspects, that is, as you can see, in development. Malvinder and Shivinder generated the loans and so you have documentation of their actions. But they had the cooperation of associates of Gurinder, as the SEBI audits confirmed, and that is also documented. Gurinder at all received much of those loans, and so are only legally responsible for their timely payment, which they are now delinquent in making.

Unfortunately, because the high court directly ordered repayment from Gurinder et al to the high court and not to Malvinder or Shivinder, the high court has established the full responsibility for these lost monies upon Gurinder et al's shoulders, laying the groundwork for further and direct legal, possibly criminal, action if the monies and their interest and fines are not duly paid. Currently Gurinder is at risk of contempt of court for failure to repay.

The article states:"Fortis Hospitals has filed a suit against Best Healthcare, Fern Healthcare, Modland Wears, Malvinder Mohan Singh, Shivinder Mohan Singh and certain other entities... The suit is sub-judice. At present, we have no further comments,” the company said. ..."

https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/fortis-files-suit-to-recover-rs-520-crore-from-malvinder-shivinder-singh-119081500017_1.html

Very well put, Jen. There is no need to judge or put another on pedestal. We all have our own strengths and flaws and are on our own journey.

That being the case, why is Gurinder on an elevated dais being asked his insights on the mysteries of the universe? What does he know?

It'd be different if Osho and Gurinder were buds just shooting the shit, philosophizing over a beer. That's not the case. By assuming the role of PLM and sitting on a dais, he is implicitly staking claim to enlightenment.

Would an enlightened person who has merged with the One greedily chase riches? No, as he already has the entire cosmos in his heart.

Thus GSD is a manipulative fraud.

That said, I understand there are many desperate, lonely ppl in the world just looking for something/anything to believe in. If they find comfort in GSD, I suppose it's better than other options (drugs, etc.)

"I don't see Gurinder begging anyone to follow RSSB."

Then what has been the purpose of his 30 year straight tour of book sales and property acquisition?

He's obviously not doing it to lose followers.

"they are not even worth reading, let alone replying to."

That's not why. It's cause I called you out and you can't respond. Your deflections didn't work.

Gurinder is your god and you're too deceitful to admit it.

@Manjit
Excellent question. And following on: Is there a single PLM on this planet? Was there ever one? Is the very concept a fabrication?

Karma King: "That being the case, why is Gurinder on an elevated dais being asked his insights on the mysteries of the universe? What does he know?"

I can only guess. Who can understand the inner perspective of how someone thinks and why someone behaves the way they do. My thoughts would be that he is fulfilling his family duty. Hasn't he said that he is not perfect? I think I read something like that on this blog. He's just another dude fulfilling his duty and maybe even helping many people who are experiencing much difficulty in their lives. Its like going to the doctor when you are not well and need assistance even though doctors don't have the answers to everything and there is only so much they can do.

Dear Manjit,
I am so surprised you've asked this question, really?
either you've been totally sarcastic which I couldn't guess,
or imo, that's an irrelevant question, you need to visit Beas to witness not one but in abundance who are so much in love they won't even care to respond to your question. I personally know not one but many.


Dear Osho,
Can I ask you how far you were sitting from the Master while having this conversation?
I love it, but also I am sort of jealous with you, you are too lucky to be too close to the Master too frequently :)
Even being in India, I am tied up in some situations by HIS order and don't get chance too often,
to be present at HIS feet.
In fact so much so, the more I wish to be at HIS discourse, the more I am pushed back and made sure that I won't be able to attend - ha ha - it's a funny circus.
I love reading these conversations so much.


Dear Robert,
I can happily assert the Key Claim 3.
By HIS grace I experience that many times when I attend the stsang at the local satsang centers.
This also verifies the statement that Master/Divinity/Shabd is present in abundance at the local satsang centers even when HE is not physically present.

Also when I attend Babaji's satsang at Beas or at Delhi, I experience this phenomena at much more intensity throughout the whole huge satsang hall, and even many hours after the discourse in parks and everywhere.
At the discourse it happens along with many other beautiful things, hard to explain, which constantly occurs around and inside HIM at varying frequencies.

And it happens too frequently when HE is giving darshan and also when not speaking during discourse and waiting for the verse to be completed.
When HE speaks and sometimes takes a pause, which we observe with any worldly speech when the speaker takes a pause giving some moments to the audience on what has been spoken about, but in HIS discourse, these pauses in between the speech are something much bigger - some turbulent things are always happening inside and around HIM during these moments as HE allows me to witness it.

"Gurinder is your god and you're too deceitful to admit it.". - Jesse

So now you claim the ability to read minds too?
Well I know my mind far better than your surmising based on your prejudices.

Doing satsang tours does not qualify as " begging " except in Jesse's twisted mind.
Clearly you are out of touch with reality.

"Excellent question. And following on: Is there a single PLM on this planet? Was there ever one? Is the very concept a fabrication?". - PJ

The concept is erroneous. There are enlightened people, not perfect masters.

@Jen But if he is not a PLM, then a more accurate analogy would be a case of somebody pretending to have a medical qualification and then masquerading as a MD

How about Ishwar Puri? Is Ishwar Puri a PLM?

The set of his gaze suggests his consciousness sits permanently at the eye focus, but I suspect he tells tall tales. In one recording he talked about viewing a shaman at work, jumping wildly up and down to affect magical cures on a succession of patients. Ishwar's wife was there too and got scared, so she began simran. Before you know it, the shaman fell over and couldn't get up, so powerful was her simran over his evil spirits!

Telekinetic simran? Who ever heard of that? By what authority did Ishwar begin initiating? Any Ishwar Puri scholars out there?

Hi Osho, you wrote, "The concept is erroneous. There are enlightened people, not perfect masters."

Agree. But the term enlightened then needs to be clarified. Again, one falls into semantics in defining it, recognizing it, and believing one to be enlightened. Same issues, just different terminology. Although PLM clearly denotes an almost unachievable stance.

Based on one's background, exposure to spiritual concepts, and mindset, an enlightened individual can be just as much a fake, just saying the right things with no knowledge of it.

"PLM clearly denotes an almost unachievable stance."

So are almost all definitions of "enlightenment." It's just as "erroneous" as any other designation used for people we admire. That's what it comes down to in the end. People feeling excessive admiration for charismatic figures who offer release, salvation, enlightenment, realization of oneness, wealth, freedom, whatever your desire is.

Prisons are absolutely full of enlightened gurus with murder charges who very easily get women, and men who act/think like women,guards to do their bidding and/or have their babies while imprisoned.

There is no discernible psychological difference between one man worshiping another man whose on a stage rambling about gods, and a female prison guard getting mesmerized and ______ in the ____ and having a baby by a cult leader inmate who manages a gang in the yard. It's literally the exact same mechanism with slightly different external forms.

And those who are hanging out at satsangs doing meditation are basically just lucky. Charles Manson had satsangs too. The people who attended his holy satsangs were in the same susceptible state of mind as those who seek enlightenment from a fat tibetan who counts huge stacks of money in his dharamsala apartment when his students eyes aren't on him.

In the initiation forms it is said that the radiant form of the Master is now planted in the/your thirth eye.
That he helps you trough all the inner stages..

So you are the lucky one(this is not written,but mostly felt)

@Anami.
@Jesse
Your request for info on Ishwar..hes now near Chicago area with a center also in Wisconsin...not a huge following. He says that great master sent him to the west to start a dera and bring sant mat...never says RS just sant mat to the west...

Ive listened to a lot of Ishwar over the years.
Yes the eyes show some what can be high intelligence or enlightenment. A huge concentration of energy reflection.
He explains ! a lot of things much clearer than the RS masters.
He initiated some people for a while then he stopped because he felt he was not a person that should be initiating and didnt want that responsibility. He always credits great master. Never ever mentions the last 2 RS has current GSD or M.Charan.
He emphasizes the need for a living master PLM and then credits only great master and before him.
I spent a fair amount of time with his dad Lekh Raj Puri in India...he was very kind and helpful person. He enjoyed westerners being there as many other "leaders" helping m. Charan wished foreigners would leave.....so the dera would settle down. Hah they should be there now.
Ishwar comes from what seems to be a loving and intellectual place.
He says more or less to the many satsangis from RS that go to him now ...to do their meditation and they dont need reinitiation from him...
He never mentions the vows or a set time for meditation...2 1/2 hours...cant say hes changed it but he just talks about the need for a PLM and the explanations of the regions the mind and the great master and many lovely stories.

Jesse... I understand what you mean about sort of desperate blind empty headed followers of saints and sinners to make it short...
There is not a place of discernment and SELF AWARENESS when a person is in whats sort of an ecstatic high all the time and not grounded in there thinking just desperately idol worshipping...then they fall off that pedestal both leaders and followers and a sad situation befalls both.
Many dera people did this may still do.
Wait for hours to see his car drive by. Fall and cry at his feet. Get in fist fights which ive seen at the dera to get front row satsang seats to get more darshan and more unobstructed light from the master...and then claim they are helpers and some in the healing professions...this overtake like a monster takes over people but its short lived...they often give it all up soon after the craze wears off...
Stay in balance whatever gives you peace dear Jesse and all of us do what makes you feel happy inside. It all works out over time.
Best to stay balanced if possible..

Chy

Jesse, that is what I'm getting at. Whether you say PLM, Enlightened, Constipated, fill in the blank...

You can't know for sure. Somebody like Ishwar who is very engaging and insightful, or someone who says the right things that resonate with you, you don't really know if they are enlightened or have achieved anything of substance. It would appear, in my opinion, depend9ng on your background and mindset, to accept someone such as these people.

Once you're committed to it, it becomes tough to remove yourself because you're so invested, especially emotionally, like you were I the past and recently myself. It takes a lot to come to that realization, but when you do, you've things as they really are and see the facade around the entire act being played out by these organizations and individuals calling themselves PLM, enlightened ones, teachers or guides.

Yes, there is absolutely no dearth of devotion among masses who visit Him regularly in india despite so much muck and filth thrown here and also in media with obvious plain questions or may be some of us may want to peep into His troubles or His immediate family's dilemma in settling the finances for good.

Irrespective of whether He is an accomplice into vast and intricate business deals or. not nvolving huge amounts and properties while His poor indian sangat may not be able to count and spell the amount He/ they played with.

He is tallest among Saints as He belongs to a time and events trusted lineage of Perfect Saints and yet playing with fire ( ill gotten money it seems and what I think as by manipulations by His group yet His role is unclear). However He expects His sangat to behave honestly and lovingly with others.

While the said huge money mess overtakes the myth that a satsangi need be extremely conscious while amassing wealth and properties if He or His family sets such an example as His spiritual throne is not getting affected than why would it be for His dear sangat. i am still to validate this.

"He is tallest among Saints as He belongs to a time and events trusted lineage of Perfect Saints"

I'd argue that even among the various rs factions Beas is possibly the least trusted. Having numbers isn't a sign of quality or trust.

Wasn't it Sawan himself who used the metaphor about never seeing packs of tigers or large groups of saints?

The belief that beas is the best and most trusted comes from the same mental place that says taylor swift makes the best music.

It's not complicated. If you want to achieve anything it must become your passion and single devotion, whether that is spuritual development or business development.

And that is why Gurinder is not at the top, as his financial adventures and attention are broadly distributed and multi - faceted.

Many humbler devotees made their Guru and their spirituality their whole life... Living the vows in every moment. Just as you say Jesse. By their humble love they fly beyond within. And they also have earned the right to have their questions answered honestly, humbly, completely, with respect.... Which is what we haven't seen lately.

Or to put it in more pointed terms, no true Saint cooks with the same water they bathed in.

Spence if I would have even in the smallest amount the qualities you attribute to an devoted disciple, I would rather leave him that question him.

I wrote "IF" …

I don't understand and never did how one can question those one say to respect, love etc.

Writing this I do remember the words of his uncle never, under no circumstance to critisize and judge others and especially those who are considered teachers etc.

Spence 1149 am aug 16 2019 your entire letter.
ABSOLUTELY see that in its entirety...
What I liked as well was that you didnt indicate WHERE GSD is spiritually but suggested to him of course if he reads your blog some things he could do for his sheep...
Its up to him....
Very WELL presented Spence...
Chy

What if the 3 so called Abrahamic religions are right, Spence, and everyone who worshipped a man ends up in hell too?

The funniest thing I've seen in adopters of Indic religions is their doing so for the reasons of not finding some of the ideas of punishment or morality agreeable, and only knowing the happy fun parts of Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever. Truth is never a concern.

Not that I believe in truth. It's just an example of human pleasure seeking taking a religious form.

Many converts to Hinduism seem wholly ignorant of the descriptions of brutal and torturous punishments meted out to "sinners." And Buddhist converts equally attach themselves to an amoral view that doesn't originate with any Buddha but with Western writers on Buddhism.

There's a line in Prabhupads translations of the Bhagvatam about being drowned slowly in an ocean of semen, as a punishment for immoral sexual activity.It's disgusting and hilarious somehow.

Some old RS books describe really painful and terrible things happening to those who fail in realizing god, but satsangis generally overlook them out of convenience. My favorite is the one about being born as a water buffalo and being beaten by a farmer while forced to walk in circles to pump water. It's just an ugly image made to strike fear into practitioners so they beg the guru more.

Sick stuff this religion game is.

Quote of the Day
"If we truly long for the Lord, if our search for Him is genuine, if we really thirst for Him, we cannot but enter the shrine of our own body and locate Him there."
— Maharaj Charan Singh -

What is PLM software?
Product lifecycle management (PLM) is the process of managing complex product information, engineering and manufacturing workflows, and collaboration.

PLM software connects people, processes, and data across the entire product lifecycle to a central repository of information. So everyone from the conceptual designer to the end-customer is on the same page, sharing the same up-to-date product definition.

How clever is the above!


Some old RS books describe really painful and terrible things happening to those who fail in realizing god, but satsangis generally overlook them out of convenience. My favorite is the one about being born as a water buffalo and being beaten by a farmer while forced to walk in circles to pump water. It's just an ugly image made to strike fear into practitioners so they beg the guru more.

Actually, I think all fear is self-induced. Some of it is healthy caution
but mostly we're just surrendering to the mind's doubts, its frightening
imagery, and its constant whispers of doom. The people who attempt
to strike fear in others are being driven by their minds as well. That
includes all blind believers, including RSSB'ers ... probably now suffering
fresh nightmares of turning into a water buffalo.


Excellent question. And following on: Is there a single PLM on this planet? Was there ever one? Is the very concept a fabrication?". - PJ

The concept is erroneous. There are enlightened people, not perfect masters. - Osho Robbins

"Perfect" is an impossible standard, because perfection does not exist.

"Enlightened person" is also a lie, because a "person" cannot be enlightened.

Enlightenment means the absolute recognition that everything within time and space is unreal and an illusion.
If you can see it, if it has a shape, its within time and space.

So Osho Robbins is unreal. So is Gurinder. All forms are unreal. So a "person" cannot be enlightened because enlightenment is knowing there is no person, no separation.

Enlightenment is knowing that there Is only ONENESS and nothing else is real.
There is only the ocean, no waves.
Only the one soul that is everywhere and no individual souls.

So no person attains it. Because "you" ending is the same as its coming.

The words are the barrier to realisation, because its beyond words.

A bit like saying that only one thing exists at a time. Either light or darkness.

If you switch ON the light, how long does it take for the darkness to "go" and "where" does it go?

The question only arises if you fail to understand the nature of light and darkness. Neither comes or goes.

Darkness is the absence of light. It's already there, it doesn't come when you turn the light off.

The oneness is like the darkness.
1. You cannot SEE it. If anyone claims to SEE it, they are lying. It is not something that can be seen.
2. Its not a "thing"
3. It doesn't come or go.
4. Its always there, waiting for the light to be turned off.
5. No effort is required to make the darkness come into the room.
6. No amount of praying or meditation or begging will make the darkness come any quicker.
7. The act of turning off the light is enough for the darkness to appear.
8. The light and the darkness can never meet. The meeting is impossible. Only one if the two exists at a time.

Compare this to kabir's statement
When " I" was, you was not
Now YOU are and "I" am not.

Now replace "I" with LIGHT
And "you" with DARKNESS.

A switch can only be ON or OFF.

The coming of one is the absence of the other.

The darkness is not an attainment.

Anything you attain cannot be "IT"
If you can attain it, you can also lose it.

If god was an attainment, it would not be worth bothering with. Because anything that is attained can also be lost again.

The ONE is what remains when all else is gone (the lights are turned off)

YOU will not be there to witness the ONE, neither will "I"

Your absence is its presence

Amen.

"Actually, I think all fear is self-induced."

Has anyone ever pointed a gun at your head? Cause that is undeniably frightening to anyone and it's instinctual.


"The people who attempt
to strike fear in others are being driven by their minds as well. That
includes all blind believers, including RSSB'ers .."

In this case it's the gurus themselves attempting to strike fear in others. So i guess the lineage of so called masters haven't overcome their minds yet. Glad we agree on at least one thing.

"Enlightenment means the absolute recognition that" blah blah blah blah.

So it's essentially just as true as "knowing" that jesus is your savior because long list of reasons that just must be true, even if they actually are likely to be false.

Many people leave religion, but religion never leaves them.

Obviously this oneness thing is a great example of that, but so was a conversation I had with a friend the other day who now believes he's a Marxist. He kept calling it a science, even as he rambled on and on in a most religious fashion about already disproven economic theories and predictions that have already come, gone and failed. Most political thought is religious, especially any political idea that outright refuses to integrate our knowledge of genes and behavior into it.

But humans need to believe in supernatural hypotheses of one kind or another, regardless of how TOTALLY NOT RELIGIOUS!!! they think their personal beliefs are. This is why I'm pretty ambivalent about judging North Korea.


"Actually, I think all fear is self-induced."
--Has anyone ever pointed a gun at your head? Cause that is undeniably frightening to anyone and it's instinctual.

The next sentence goes: "Some of it is healthy caution but mostly we're
just surrendering to the mind's doubts."


"The people who attempt to strike fear in others are being driven by their
minds as well. That includes all blind believers, including RSSB'ers .."
--In this case it's the gurus themselves attempting to strike fear in others. So i guess the lineage of so called masters haven't overcome their minds yet. Glad we agree on at least one thing.

No, blind belief fails to dispel fear and those ailing from it project
their fear onto others. An alleged "buffalo scare story" hardly makes
a compelling case that a RSSB guru was deliberately fear-mongering.
That's coming from within.

Dear Jesse,

In fact there has not been a substantial controversy associated with Beas Saints before which have their roots in Soami Ji and Tulsi ji - widely known as Perfect and Pure saints.

Their pure spiritual character has been acknowledged by not only Indians but also Westerners in different times and even now even in the midst of a severe storm. confined to allegations thus far - stretched out to conclusions against Him and thus indirectly hinting the esteemed lineage as a spiritual mockery, game plan to push humanity to tread a particular subtle beyond logics.spiritual hypothesis - as for some.

"An alleged "buffalo scare story" hardly makes
a compelling case that a RSSB guru was deliberately fear-mongering."

He could kill someone and you'd find a way to defend it. That's the role you've taken on for the cult, which it seems nobody asked of you. It would not be hyperbolic to say that you'd have fit in perfectly in the manson family.

It's not a single "buffalo story" and it's not alleged. Get the books and read them if you don't know what I'm talking about. There are stories of fathers asking their sons to commit suicide for lying or some other minor offense in I believe tales of the mystic east book, the entire "chaurasi lakh chakr" concept of constant painful rebirth which nobody has evidence of, various descriptions of hell realms and karmic retributions, and the list goes on.

If it's not intentional fear mongering, then the RS gurus and their source material are both idiotic and so unsuited for the modern age that they should be eliminated anyway.


If it's not intentional fear mongering, then the RS gurus and their source material are both idiotic and so unsuited for the modern age that they should be eliminated anyway.

Hatred and book burning are exactly what fear brings.

Think this has been missed. Shahid Kapoor at a drugs party lol.

GSD fixed his marriage. . What will GSD think. Surely GSD knew being the Lord. Speak GSD followers??? What are your thoughts.

Just watched The Matrix again, after such a long time. With all this talk about The ONE. Now I realise ( real eyes). It's none other than Neo!

"Hatred and book burning are exactly what fear brings."

Well then we have an even better explanation as to why Gurinder implores the world to burn books.

Thank you for once again proving my point for me unintentionally.

"widely known as Perfect and Pure saints.

Their pure spiritual character has been acknowledged by not only Indians but also Westerners in different times and even now even in the midst of a severe storm. "

Lol what? I've never met a non Punjabi in my life who has ever heard of radha soami.

The sorts of westerners attracted to eastern religions are generally outcastes in the extreme minority, and from that small sub group radha soami makes up an insignificant portion.

Nobody has heard of them let alone agrees about their "pure spiritual character."

You're making things up.

Arjun, I watched the video and id agree that everyone looks a bit drunk and some are holding drinks but I wouldn't suspect it's a "drug party."

But it's Bollywood. They're the dregs of humanity. No initiation into a meditation cult can change their ways. They'll continue their attacks on humanity for as long as cameras exist. The only worse people are in Hollywood.

It is telling that Gurinder won't allow users of psychiatric medicines to come to dera, previously they couldn't be initiated, but Bollywood sex fiends get front row seats at satsangs and personal attention from this "enlightened" "guide" of "oneness."

They're literally the only ones who potentially receive any personal guidance.

Maybe they shoot meth with Gurinder and swap wives. Wouldn't be the first time rich and powerful people did things in private that they don't reveal in public.

Hello Jesse

Good points- this is shady. As soon as politicians started visiting GSD at beas - you knew something was shady.

Shahid kapoor is his boy. I remember GSD was once stroking his hair at Haynes uk many year ago and people when Arhhhhhh. Wrong man.

GSD states that people must lead moral and I guess there are many who do and then he cohorts with film stars lol.

Have you seen that movie The Interview Starring Seth Roger's and James Franco where they go to North Koroa with hilarious effects. You and should get a camera crew and go to beas - let's get the real blow down - oops I mean low down! Lol

We do not understand what "biology" is, deeply, and therein is the problem. Spirit minus biology equals God.

Thanks, thought slayer.

Now we have one more philosophical assertion that is beyond humans scope to analyze.

I guess should just accept one or another.


"Hatred and book burning are exactly what fear brings."
--Well then we have an even better explanation as to why Gurinder implores the world to burn books.

Ah, what a shrewd comeback!

Except GSD was talking about books on spirituality if I remember correctly.
He was right too. Ultimately, it's inner experience that counts, not outer
ritual and worship of "holy books". They can be figuratively burned... the
"Holy Bible", "Sacred Torah", "Blessed Koran", "Great Granth" (oops, not
sure about Sikh adjectival preference). But, yep, all of them. Just keep
it a secret. The zealots might burn you at the stake.

Hi Um
You wrote
"Writing this I do remember the words of his uncle never, under no circumstance to critisize and judge others and especially those who are considered teachers etc."

What is your concept of judgment?
We judge all the time. Generally our judgment is poor and should be applied mostly to ourselves. That's what it is best used for. Meditation, if it is sincere, forces us to deal directly with ourselves.

But when we don't want to accept a painful fact about ourselves, or we want to avoid our responsibility to speak out, or our duty to stop harm, then we turn our backs on that and say "we shouldn't judge."

This is all justification for weakness. If we would never teach a child to be dishonest, or greedy, then why defend it in a Guru?

Because there are so many false Gurus it is irresponsible for anyone to suggest we should never use our own judgment. You have misunderstood Maharaji.


We don't know what Gurinder 's role in the theft of hundreds of millions really is. And he isn't being forthright about it. He has been sarcastic, deflecting, and outright dishonest about the money he took.

Those are facts.

But to claim we shouldn't judge is really to justify those bad behaviors in ourselves.

Because to accept this is wrong we must take a hard look at ourselves to acknowledge where we have been short of the mark.

And that's painful. But to say we shouldn't judge in the face of cold hard facts is being irresponsible, because you are saying that greed, theft and dishonesty are fine under the right circumstances, and that could just be whichever ones you choose.

When you actually reach those qualities Saints speak of, you become very bold. Harm to any part of the creation, especially to children, the poor, the weak, the victims, becomes impossible to accept even if all you can do is use your voice.

If you are completely ignorant of those things naturally it's easy to turn your back and say 'we shouldn't judge'.


.

Well you know of course astrology does not interest everyone but I spent a good portion of my life in the past doing research on this subject...

At this time theres
Pluto planet in Capricorn...google it read up on it and form your own opinion.
I will lightly summarize and give you food for thought.
Pluto transforms and gets rid of old worn structures in our lives...
It destroys the no longer useful or necessary and when its done it allows new growth and new transformation.
Capricorn is foundations stabilities long termed political and spiritual systems that have been operating for centuries...all of it is now being tossed up for the next few years. Then it moves on to new issues.
Anything that is no longer good for us is being tossed up...so look at our planet govnmnt stuff and the religious things. Its all sifting up folks.

Theres more to come.

Its all coming to a head and the good sifts up and the outworn shall fall away..we may not like the process but this is not a time for leaders to lie deceive or pretend to be what they are not...it will discontinue and truth will abide. So hang on eat some popcorn watch the show and expect things you dont expect at this time to keep showing up. Its happening all over the world.
Expect global leaders to be friends that before were not and vice versa. New spiritual ideas to replace old worn out systems or parts of systems..I am not predicting situations who what when and where... just the planetary possibilities that seem to be occuring.
So let go of your old stuff and transform the phoenix bird and become that new person...let go of ideas that DO NOT WORK anymore.
Religious centers will shift how?
Watch the show it will come to light all of it.
Truths will prevail and lies will shine up for us all to see.
Gotta grab another popcorn bag...
Chy

@The Many

N-E-O
In reverse is O-N-E

The one who is going to save the world
It all hinges on the one.

@ osho lol. Hello bro

NEO in reverse is OEN lol.

You are obsessed with this oneness. Don't think too much about it can t have been that cool - ie the Onesness if that power had to recreate duality.

Was God bored? Ask the big man when you speak to him.next at Haynes

Laters

BIG news coming up about Haynes Park satsang. I attended Friday and Saturday.
In two days I managed to hear exactly zero minutes of BabaJi's words.
On the Friday it was because certain sevadars took my phone and refused to return it.
I specifically said "I wish to leave Haynes Park immediately and would like my property returned to me immediately. "
They said I could have it after the satsang.
I explained that I am not staying, but am leaving immediately. Still they refused. So I said I would calk the police as this was theft of my phone.

I did in fact call the police exactly as promised.

The police explained to them that they have no right to hold onto my phone without my permission.

Anyway finally got my phone back at 3pm and was told that I am "banned" from Haynes Park and all satsangs.

As far as I know, nobody is banned from attending public satsangs.

But I guess there is always going to be a first.

Oh I forgot to mention the most important part.

I did take the phone into the tent despite the notices. Guilty as charged

I did also record about 5 minutes of the English speaker who did the satsang before the Q&A.
Because he seemed to say some interesting things. Once again, guilty as charged.

Two major crimes that gave the sevadars permission, in their mind to keep hold of my phone despite my request to have my phone back as I wish to leave Haynes.

One sevadar was forced to tell a lie in order to keep his seva.

The sevadars don't care about what is "legal" they have their own rules that are above the law.

Why? Because they said so.

Oh sorry Dungeness. Didn't know book burning was considered hateful Or not depending on the subject of the book.

Maybe make a list of topics that by burning one becomes a vehicle for the hate emotion.

Hi Arjuna
Well pointed out
I didn’t even notice

At least all the letters are there. I guess I get one point for that one, surely.

Seen another side of the way they handle people at Haynes.

Way out of order. I’m finished with that now. The sevadars at the top think they are god in human form

Sorry to hear that Osho. Consider yourself lucky- if you were at beas they may have given you a good hiding.

On a serious note glad you got out safe.

The common sevadars think they are special in the way they treat people and look down at others.

They would not do that to people like me in the street unless they wanted to go to hospital lol

Osho
Banned
Ohno
Say it ain’t so
From Oneness to Noneness

Spence:
"Writing this I do remember the words of his uncle never, under no circumstance to critisize and judge others and especially those who are considered teachers etc."

Is this not an variation of Christs admonishment not to judge as it is found in his parabel of the eye and throwing stones?

What responsibility has the citizen to leave his house and throw stuff at the convict in the pillory? Responsibility lies with the authorities.

>>What is your concept of judgment?<<

If I eat in restaurant and i say that I like or dislike the food on the plate, that would be a hudgement. If , based on that judgement i would state that the chef is a good or a bad chef, that too would be a judgement. His uncle advised to refrain from the last type of judgements.

>>But when we don't want to accept a painful fact about ourselves, or we want to avoid our responsibility to speak out, or our duty to stop harm, then we turn our backs on that and say "we shouldn't judge."<<

Sometimes we are in a position that we indeed need to speak out and stop harm if we can, but not often.


>>Because there are so many false Gurus it is irresponsible for anyone to suggest we should never use our own judgment. You have misunderstood Maharaji. <<

In that case he should have phrased his thoughts otherwise. You see, there is a difference between stating that one is not attracted to a certain guru emotionaly and/or intellectualy and acting accoringly and saying that this or that person is not a guru, a false one or of this or that level …. given that we cannot know if we re not at the same level.


>>We don't know what Gurinder 's role in the theft of hundreds of millions really is. And he isn't being forthright about it. He has been sarcastic, deflecting, and outright dishonest about the money he took.<<

We don't know and we need not to know, to do our own duties in whatever role we function.
The qualifications are yours, they tell you, the beholder of hi actions.
Those are facts.

>>And that's painful. But to say we shouldn't judge in the face of cold hard facts is being irresponsible, because you are saying that greed, theft and dishonesty are fine under the right circumstances, and that could just be whichever ones you choose. <<

Whatever the facts are we need not to comment them. That is what Maharaj Ji stated time and again. All who where in his compagny know that. They often tried to force him to speak up about something or somebody but he never did. never!

Maybe there is a difference between the words critize and judge ..


Oh sorry Dungeness. Didn't know book burning was considered hateful Or not depending on the subject of the book.

Dude, do you seriously think GSD was encouraging anything other than
figuratively "burning the books" because they weren't relevant to actual
spiritual experience...

This is the most puerile, obnoxious, and unimaginative kind of trolling I've
seen. Find some other topics to burn at the stake.

Hi Osho
Sorry about your phone.
I had a rough time as mentioned in an earlier blog in 2001 Petaluma...no police and I refused to hand over my phone and it was after satsang...the sevadar was very nasty ..i never got any photos or recordings. I had followed !! the rules and was shifting my purse and packages i had bought. In that the phone was shuffled...he saw it...
Others were snapping photos and everything wrong but did not get hassled.
Im tall may have stood out in the crowd who knows.
Anyway the love and wonderful feelings of my India prior experiences were not so at the Petaluma gathering.
Seems many just go to show their"devotion" and to be seen how successful and how much money they have now and look at me me me ...its not the same as the old days...you may understand what I mean.
As well Im not destitute but am doing well and not in need of a come see me just genuinely went to see babaji.
Have not returned since. Too much confusion there now and god knows that was 2001....waaaay too much chaos for me.
Wishing them all well but the sevadars need to get out of their egos go to learn something not work thinking seva will get them god consciousness for a few days ...lies on that note. Physical labor doesnt open the 10th door...yes I know somebody has to do the work thats the whole idea promise heaven mixed with free work... but folks that is a whole seperate deal from getting your 3rd eye open and getting "gods grace"...dont mix the 2...the sevadars can be gentler loving and watch for danger not every little thing..
Chy

Dungeness, you twist and turn in any way necessary to defend these rs gurus.

I'm making fun of you for never having anything to say that isn't consistent mangod defense, not Gurinder's lame suggestion/joke that his followers burn his books.

But please, get mad more. Ishwar Puri will save you if you believe.

@ Osho

Ever thought that you where targeted from above. This Oneness stuff is fairy made bullshit. You went too close to the flames and nearly started to expose the Con. You yourself got hoodwinked on that Oneness shite.

Hope you learn your lesson. They don't want you there. Get over it and move on and see the whole this crumble. Oneness my arse.

Buckle up solider and eyes front!!

What do "you" mean that "you" were banned from "Haynes Park"?

There is no you. There is no location.

But on a serious note that really sucks but it's entirely predictable. You probably could have tried pressing serious charges if they attempted to prohibit you from leaving. Also could have legally smashed them in the face to escape a kidnapping attempt if they tried holding you until after the satsang. That's easily the most respectable response. Do it next time.

Didn't you say that you'd never been to India before? Well now you know how non 2nd and 3rd generation nri's do things. India is mostly based on a culture that operates on the exertion of power at all levels. There are no "laws" and no "order" outside of what you personally are able to impose on your surroundings and associates. Like all human systems it has its ups and downs.

Unless of course if it was a Brit who stole your phone in militant and illegal defense of an Indian guru. But that sounds nearly impossible.

No racism. Just sayin.

Hi Um
You wrote
"In that case he should have phrased his thoughts otherwise."

He told us to use our best judgment.

As far as I know, nobody is banned from attending public satsangs.
But I guess there is always going to be a first.—Osho Robbins

Well, in theory nobody is banned from attending public satsangs if it is held in public property, even in RSSB as well in theory the instructions are that nobdy must be banned from attending the satsang though mostly it is held in their private property.
But if anybody defying the norms of the organization can be banned.
This is not the first time, I think it is quite normal, I have seen this ban many times in India and twice in Spain as well during the regime of Charan Singh.
Of Course the sevadars request with folded hands and if necessary with the group force.

"Of Course the sevadars request with folded hands and if necessary with the group force."


Are you joking? I can't tell.

The one time I was at dera there was a guy there who didn't even look slightly Indian, but was I guess half Indian. I believe he was from Bosnia and was culturally Bosnian, had no relationship with Indian relatives, and held no Indian passport or anything else. He was staying in the foreigners accommodations and everything, too.

We were walking together and talking on our way to a morning satsang when suddenly security there aggressively hounded him and asked why he was trying to sneak into the foreign area and not the Indian or NRI part. They just hassled him like really amateur interrogators and finally let him in. It made no sense and I felt like there was a strong emphasis on looking tough and not knowing what to actually do as security.

Later when we all were going into the more private Q and A hall, we went through metal detectors and everything, but it was the sloppiest search we had to go through. Like they just barely waved the wand thing in our direction and let us all through.

I don't know what there is to say. It's a strange cult. You're not supposed to give books from the org itself to people. You're not allowed to take notes. Everything is recorded but nobody can hear the recordings. It's racist but in different ways to different races. Indians can make money in the org via getting taxi gigs or being promoted by RSSB as preferred travel agents, they get almost all the "good seva", they're told their history is better and the west is garbage, but yet they can't sit up front at satsangs.

It's like a dysfunctional regimented military monastery that formally speaks out against monasticism for no good reason at all (it's because monks don't donate), and there are insane security guards harassing people all over, breaking laws and stealing phones inside the monasteries. And after the banal spiritual talk, the guru kicks the monks out to go be depressed alone at home, fretting over rennet.

Can't say it sounds like a really normal and healthy response to other religions, unless you're of the modern thinking that believes compounding problems actually solves them.


But please, get mad more. Ishwar Puri will save you if you believe.

Right, getting "mad" doesn't help one whit. Nor will all the trolling
to get a rise. Even negative emotion is good though if directed
at GIHF... so bravo :)

But the mystic's point is that nothing outside is gonna save you. Not
some holy book, not doing a bazillion rounds of simran, or gobs of
seva, or even praying to a blessed guru who's gonna magically lift
ya to higher realms at death.

It's your spiritual awareness and progress within that empowers and
saves you. The physical master is a prop to remind ya of the initial
busywork given to set you in the right direction. The right direction
is inside ya. But, you protest "The books say yada, yada, ..." The mystic
smiles and answers "Burn the books!"

My opinion only: The true path that santmat advocates is solely an internal journey. One does not have to leave home to return "home." Why on earth would anyONE wish to put themselves through all the hassles of going to a huge satsang, only to hear an inane discourse by some sevadar, then listen to, sometimes very sad and emotional, questions, and sometimes thought provoking questions from followers. All Judgements by me, I am not sorry for. They are just my opinions. Charan Singh, emphasised, on numerous occasions (I have read, when I used to read the santmat books) that there is no need to travel to India, or anywhere in fact in order to see the "guru!" For the true "guru" resides within. But as we all know, millions of santmat followers still need an external Master. Then let them. If it generates love, and makes living life better, then Radha Soami to The Many!😇🙏 OB-ONE-K-NO-BE

" Fretting over rennet"
Jesse that blog made me laugh so hard I had tears...youve got a gift brother!..
Chy

"But the mystic's point is that nothing outside is gonna save you. "

This is simply not true in the radha soami tradition, so I guess you're not including them in "the" mystics.

Yeoh Osh!
Banned !! ? That’s a bugger!
We need to get you back in there asking those interesting questions (like the fella you covertly recorded).
How about you retrieve that sacred thread and loin cloth from your attic storage and disguise yourself as a sadhu to get back in?
Or, you could cunningly sneak up to the head sevadar and bribe them with a tasty vegan treat and they would have to let you in :-)
Best wishes

Lots of talk about Ishwar Puri lately. Here he discusses these so called controversies that Masters get into. Have a listen.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/Ishwar%20C.%20Puri%20_%20Community%20Meeting%20_%20Grayslake_%20IL%20_%2016Aug2019%20_%20Part%201_2%200s%20-%2010m50s%20(8ABELW0Gte8).m4a

The sevadar who originally “clocked me”
Was asked what happened.

Now the thing was, I’d spoken to him while I was waiting for my phone and he was an okay guy. In fact he started feeling bad for taking the phone and wished he hadn’t. He was very fearful of losing his seva.

So when asked to say what had happened, I was surprised when he said
“I don’t want to say it.... “
I naturally asked “ what exactly don’t you want to say, just say it.”

He then said that I had threatened to “kick him in the nuts”.

Not a phrase I would ever use.
Naturally I denied it.

The sevadar then said “I would rather believe my sevadar than you”

Of course it was just too obvious what was going on. I had seen the sevadar have a meeting with this higher up sevadar just a few minutes earlier. So he had obviously told him to tell this lie when asked if he wishes to keep his seva.

So that sevadar said it hesitatingly because he was clearly having a conflict about if he should lie in order to save his seva.

If it was me, I would have simply spoken the truth and handed the sevadar my badge and walked away with a clear conscience. To me, that would be the only course of action possible. But that’s because I would not be desperate to keep my seva.

Someone who is desperate to keep his seva can be bribed.

Of course if I was desperate, I too could be bribed.

So the sevadar lied to save his seva, and that was predictable and there was a brief moment when he could break out, that would change his life. Stand for truth instead of lying.

It’s not “wrong” as such. He only did what he was programmed to do. Neither is the higher up sevadar “wrong” as he too was only doing what he was programmed to do.
Liars lie. Thieves steal. It’s the way their life has programmed them. So even in the midst of all this happening against me I am saying it was all inevitable and unavoidable. Each person is acting according to the way they are programmed including me.

So all this was all happening perfectly, despite the fact that at that moment it was not in my favour.

Or was it?

It was only against me if I am desperate to step this “calamity” from happening

But it’s seriously not a calamity. I was actually quite happy watching all this unfold. It was entertaining watching how it all happens. Only if I have no agenda.
In this case I have no agenda, because I don’t care in the slightest about being “banned” as such.
I can’t be hurt by banning me. The sevadar picked on the wrong guy. I just find the whole thing entertaining. Gives me something to write about.

Of course I am not going to “stay banned”

I am going to test this to see what happens next. I am going to see how far this corruption at the top goes.

Obviously the higher up sevadar has a hold on the lower down sevadar that enables him to force him to lie.

So the lower sevadar chose that path because he was desperate to save his seva.

There is no free will here. Nobody can break free unless he stops caring to save his seva. The higher up sevadar is just as bound because he wants me to be banned at any cost.

Each is doing whatever they are doing to get the outcome they want.

Drop the outcome and it becomes a game. That’s why I found the whole thing entertaining and laughable. Including “me”

I am also part of the entertainment. If I stop, the entertainment stops.

That too is an option. I can stay banned.

I am not desperate to go to satsang. My spiritual future is not in satsang.

If it was I would be begging him not to ban me.

And that is what is getting to that sevadar. He wants power over everyone. He has it over the Sevadars because they want their seva

He thinks he got “a result”

But he has no idea what that result is yet. Neither do I.

That’s the only thing that makes it worth playing. Because in reality nobody including me is doing anything here of any real significance.

It’s all a divine joke that we all take our personal agenda so seriously.

As I walked away from Haynes Park, I was with my cousin. He had patiently waited two hours after satsang for me.

I had made it clear to the sevadars that I had a lift with someone to come to Haynes and he has a child with him. I don’t want to put him out.

They probably thought I was lying. But I wasn’t. I have told the truth from beginning to end.

I have no reason to lie. I confessed my “big sin” openly from the start. I lied about nothing.

That’s what gives this whole thing credence. I have no agenda that would make me lie. I won’t lie for any outcome because I am not desperate for any outcome.

Am I bothered about “being banned”?

Not in the slightest. Just as I had no care in the world when I was banned as a speaker,

My cousin asked me if I was upset about being banned from satsang.

“Upset? Do I look upset?”

I am about as upset as when I was banned from being a speaker.

In fact I will be the only person who has been banned from both giving satsang and attending satsang.

This “satsang” thing clearly “has it in for me” or so it seems

I hope you all find it as entertaining as I do.

Because it’s about to be upped up a notch.

I don’t let sleeping dogs lie.

I like a little entertainment.

Hey maybe the baba is doing exactly the same, just a thought.

Stay tuned as the next episode unfolds.
This was Friday.

Saturday was a whole new day with a whole new adventure.

Just like every episode of batman I watched as a child ( the one with Adam playing Batman)

“ tune in tomorrow to see what happens
Same bat-time same bat-channel”

But don’t take it literally as “tomorrow” and call me a liar when it doesn’t happen tomorrow.

Till next time,
Over and out from “The ONE”


That is sad Osho,
A net loss proposition.

After being caught with the mistake,
you could have simply solved the issue by being apologetic
But you made it worse by calling police into a private matter.

The game of Ego:
We are harsh on others' mistakes,
And forgiving on our mistakes.
If we revert this, we can progress quickly.

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