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August 12, 2019

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>Gurinder speaks extremely vaguely, contradicts himself and deflects in the exact same way as his predecessors

>Osho Robbins tries to tell us what Gurinder REALLY meant and says we're reading into his words as he does exactly the same.

This is all such a sad and boring joke at this point.

Those teachings say that the guru is greater than God, because the guru takes souls back to God, being God in Human Form. The radiant form of the guru (meaning, a supernatural form) guides the disciple through higher regions of reality all the way to Sach Khand, or "heaven." -Brian Hines

Brian refers to the contradiction in what the current guru is saying. On the one hand the teachings elevate the guru to god status and even beyond god. On the other hand the current guru says “I am just a guide and a teacher”

Guru Nanak was asked “who are you”
His reply: I am a puppet made of the five elements and I am called Nanak. Hardly a claim to Godhood. What He DID claim was an insight into the nature of ONENESS. And once you have that insight, all is ONE, so there is no greater or lower.

To add to Brian’s argument, there are even scriptures where, for instance, Kabir says that “Kabir’s mind has become so pure like the river Ganges, that God is running after Kabir, calling his name, asking him to stop”

In another place Kabir says he met God on the way to Kaaba, and God started fighting with Kabir, asking him “who says I reside in Kaaba”

Kabir was a poet and all poets have “poetic licence” which means that in order to make the point, he says whatever he needs so say. Obviously Kabir never met God or argued with him.
Neither did God chase after Kabir.

These are just metaphors and poetic licence to make a point. The story is not designed to be taken literally otherwise you end up with confusion because you start to think god can be seen and had a form and talks to you.

Admittedly the RSSB teachings DO contain a lot of mixed messages. In fact in many instances, I agree with Brian, that the teachings as written in the RSSB books do often over-rate the physical form of the guru. And swami ji’s Teachings also do that.

However, I am simply reporting what the current head of RSSB is stating. If HE said “Hey Sangat, I am the supreme Being or Sat Purush, and I have come in his human body to take you back” then I would report that.

However his message is different.
He says those teachings in the books are a metaphor. For instance the story of Kal standing on one leg for x number of jugas. There is no Kal according to GSD. Why? Because there is only the ONE.

So GSD is not in agreement with the teachings in the books. Hence he says at times, “burn the books”

To add to Brian’s Point, GSD sits on stage while a speaker gives out duality teachings and says lots of things that GSD does not in fact agree with.

In response to a question on Sunday regarding this, He said “don’t take those things literally, they are just symbolic”

The current guru also has another view which is that you have to start with where you are. If you are firmly steeped in duality then talking about ONENESS is pointless because you cannot understand and people usually condemn and dismiss what they don’t understand.

So He says “you have to meditate” because the disciples are already of the opinion that in order to realise God they have to DO something so he gives them something to do.

He contradicts this, only if someone (usually yours truly) raises the point. Then he says that only the ONE is the doer of everything and all happens in his hukam.
But he doesn’t recommend living that way unless it is your own inner realisation

I understand the point he is making

I don’t agree with everything.

He presents a path. If someone like it, take it, if not leave. There is nothing against leaving.

Equally for the people who choose that path, that is their choice. Let and let live.

I am just correcting some of the erroneous ideas presented by some commenters. For instance he does not claim to be god in human form.

Brian makes an intelligent and reasonable point and backs it up with evidence. That is how an argument should be presented.
No name calling. No arguments like "just because"
That allows both sides to present their point intelligently.

Jesse on the other hand just makes accusations.

For example in the above comment
He says its a sad and boring joke.

That's not an argument and has no basis. No evidence is presented.

On top of that Jesse's argument is not even based on reality.

I stated what gurinder actually said on stage. If I give my interpretation, I make it clear that it is my interpretation.
Jesse has no basis for his argument and constantly uses logical fallacies.

Brian has a valid point and a reply presenting a different view can be given. That's an intelligent dialogue.

If i replied by saying to Brian, "your view point is so sad and is just a boring joke" that would not be an intelligent argument.

So intelligent comments expressing a certain view are welcome. Pointless name calling is not a valid argument.

Biggest predicament this joker has created is that corruption and honesty are one/nothingness. Scandals and no scandals are one/nothingness. Medical malpractice of Asians and Christian Missionary Doctors dedicating their lives for patient care are one. Cunning Hindus, Sikhs [who could not invent even electric bulb] and Christian Innovators are one. Rapist Ram Rahim and Gurudom of this Guru are one/one scoundrel.

Maharaji did not claim being the PLM either..But..,
But Babaji goes further into the ''He is not''
Further more it is very contradictionary because the satsang sewadar's
sitting next to him claim he is the PLM..
The old books all claim about the Perfecct Living Master..
So contradictions enough.
So one is Free to Believe what one wants..
Or Love or Like Babaji..or not..
Nobody really knows..ofcourse,because it's byond us..
Very much byond.
What make things interesting..because we do not know..
;0)

Logical Fallacies

Ad Hominem: An attack, or an insult, on the person, rather than directly addressing the person's reasons. Name calling is a form of this fallacy.

A fan argued that Coach did not have a winning season because he was stupid.

This logical fallacy seems to be the sum total of most of Jesse's comments.

Copy:
Osho, talking about questions to ask when you happen to go there again.

Why do you go there?
Why does he sits there?
How is your going related to his sitting there?

We can only love what we know of experience mentally
Who or what to love?

Guides show us a path from A to B.
What is the path he guides on?
What is the goal B?
How does that goal relates to our being here?

Teachers and students have a common interest.
What is that interest?
What qualifies him as teacher?
What qualifies you as student?

again
Why do you go there?
Why does he sits there?
What is the relation between his sitting there and you going there?

Just some simple questions, many of these simple questions are possible.

The tale that was told by previous teachers, explained the position of both the teacher and the student in terms of the sheperd tale.

If that tale is is no longer valid, there must be a new tale as ALL games have to be played by the rules.

So what does the game that is to be payed according him looks like and what is everybody's role in the play.

P.S.
"You" stands for you or anybody else.

I also don't agree that GSD refers disciples to the books and the traditional teachings.
In fact, quite the opposite, he refutes the previous teachings. He says "burn the books".
Of course he did specifically reply to my question saying that the previous gurus and the scriptures say that the creator will take care of the souls, but that was specifically in response to that point, not generally.
When I pointed out that no creator can come because in ONENESS there is no " coming or going" he agreed and said that God is ever present so doesn't really come or go.
However, that has to be your realization, not just something you heard or read.

Hi Osho
God is in every grain of sand, and sings in every cell in our body. And in every star.

Has any Saint said otherwise?

But who really can see it and hear?
So the journey is always within us, our developing perception, our passage within ourselves from lower awareness to greater.

But along the way we discover that what we thought and felt yesterday is ignorant compared to what we see today. That can only happen with an open and focused mind, Osho.

The calm, awake, mind, like the calm lake, is transparent, and we can see clear through it to what is truly there, at every level, right down to the bottom of it all.

And there are many things within us. Everything that makes up the unconscious mind is there waiting to be discovered. Everything and everyone. Yes everyone. We are more than a single intelligence. And there is far more intelligence molded by evolution, ancient intelligence, in these bodies and brains. And there is connection to this entire creation in ways we have yet to discover. We are not isolated units at all. We are influenced, we are a tiny fragment in a very large, multi - leveled creation of many intelligences.

The basis of meditation is to help us put aside lust, anger, greed, pride, attachment and raise our own awareness and intelligence. Those negative forces that are our blinders, our barriers, our own camoflouge from parts of our own past, our own self, we see often by their destructive effect and after the fact. But a calm view of things can give us the wisdom to act with less harm. These are internal stages of development.

So you can say we are there, but that isn't true. It is more accurate to say the equipment is within every one of us, if we choose to use it. Our personal development is no illusion. It's a daily, moment-by-moment event; A challenge to our personal integrity. An opportunity.

But if you carry a position, an argument, a static case that must be defended, like a fort, then you must remain stuck in that fort to do so.

The opportunity to grow is no illusion. But the cost is too give up a favored opinion in order to see a larger picture. And with each step the world becomes a different place to us, from our growing perspective.


O Robbins wrote: “I am simply reporting what the current head of RSSB is stating. If HE said ‘Hey Sangat, I am the supreme Being or Sat Purush, and I have come in his human body to take you back’ then I would report that.”

Heh heh! Oh boy.

But can you name and quote any of the previous four Beas Gurus saying anything like that?

Or let's make it easier for you: can you quote any anecdote in the lives of all the people regarded as Sant Mat Sat Gurus whose biographies and teachings Beas publish, who ever claimed that?

If not, why do you think it is that no person regarded as a Sant Sat Guru by Radha Swami Gurus, not one in all of their version of Sant Mat history is reported as saying something like that?

Hi Osho
Did you get an opportunity to ask Baba Ji about his delinquent bills?

This has event to do with his credibility to make philosophical comments and to interpret the teachings.

And BTW, as this was before the national Satsang week, how did you get time with him?

Hi Chris!
The disciples do say that.
If you read With a Great Master in India you see it.

Also Chris, the Masters do claim their own Guru is greater than God because the Guru can help them find God...a lot of that sort of thing in Sar Bachan.

It depends on how you define God.

Maharaji often said that there is no difference between the Guru and the disciple, except the Guru realizes who he actually is, and is here to help us do the same.

In Sar Bachan you read that the Lord sent the Guru's here to bring back the "marked souls", and so they carry no Karma of their own making at all... They take on our Karma to incarnate into the flesh and to help humanity. They have no personal interests in being here at all.

Notice that, culture-bound mythology aside, these are beautiful sentiments and worth making, and are good representations of what is truly sacred and holy, and worth our devotion. They don't require supernatural wrappings. We should strive to be like that, harmless, helpful, and interests aligned to helping.

But who is worthy of that role? Maybe no one. But if someone must play that role so that we can practice pure devotion, pure love, and in that practice we become nobler, higher, more aware of the Galaxies within us, and our connection to each other, then, it serves a natural purpose for a function built into the human body, so long as we understand it as a means to an end.

I m just waiting for Amar to poke his nose in this!!!

I m waiting

"I am just correcting some of the erroneous ideas presented by some commenters. For instance he does not claim to be god in human form."

He sure as hell does in writing. He also does when he allows a crowd to call him a god every day without correcting them.

So here's what I'm getting form these comments, both everyone here and GSD. If he's only a guide or a teacher, and he has stated many times that there are other ways to achieve this "Oneness", and that there is no one to come and get us or take us anywhere, then that means the idea or intent is to get you to realize what the Truth is. Realize the Self, as I remember him saying.

So what is the point of doing anything then? if everyone passes thru the same "gateway" upon death, then everyone goes the same route. So what's the point of doing anything? Is it to understand the illusion of the creation? Is it to have those inner experiences (doubtful)?

If, for example, you have 2 people, one that meditates trying to find the true "Self", and another that doesn't. Both are good, morally fine and live a good honest life. Can someone tell me why the meditator will achieve freedom, and the other won't? Is there a spiritual switch that gets flicked to the "go" position and the other person doesn't? What is the point of all this but to satisfy the curiosity of the mind? It seems to sidestep the idea of karmas. Yet recently, GSD said that killing animals have a price to be paid. What's the price? If karma theory is not what we think it is, then what difference does it make?

Why do we need to do anything?

Osho, 99.9% of his disciples don't see him in foreign countries asmr certainly don't get to ask questions. Telling one person to burn the books isn't denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be.

Stop the cult apologist screeds. It's old. You're not being honest.

And Osho,calling you names is not the logical fallacy. My argument isn't that you're stupid and a liar. That's a simple observation.

My argument is that Gurinder cintradicts himself both when hee speaks, and sells a consistent teaching to far more people than ever hear these Q and A sessions and that he does imply, via books that he sells, that he is God.

You're never going to respond to this, because you can't. There's no argument against what I'm saying that makes sense. That's why you, and your guru, deflect to "oneness" and other concepts when asked real questions.

Jesse wrote: "Telling one person to burn the books isn't denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be."

Have to agree with you on that. But I guess if he did that, then he'd have to answer to the millions in India that eat this stuff up. Maybe he wants to but the Dera management doesn't want him to. The Dera industry/machine has become too big to dismantle. Or he doesn't want to be the one to do it so abruptly. Maybe he's setting up his successor to build on it. Who knows. But if he really believes the books are not genuine, stop selling them.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"Telling one person to burn the books isn't denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be."

Truth.

“Telling one person to burn the books isn't denouncing the teachings. Ceasing to sell the books would be."

Quite a number of people seem to agree with the above statement. I don’t and I will give my reasons.

1. Not everyone is at the same stage. When a person comes to the path, he wants books and information. Those books are necessary to whet the appetite.

2. Just because it’s in the books doesn’t mean he has to endorse it for the same reason as (1) above. Our whole schooling system does the same. What you are told about atoms at age 11 is then totally changed when you get to university. And finally science says “we don’t actually know the nature of matter; sometimes it behaves like particles, sometimes as waves”
Going by the argument above, the schools should stop teaching about atoms having a nucleus and electrons and scrap the periodic table. They don’t for the same reason as I stated above. That theory serves a purpose at that time and is later refuted.

The same in Sant mat. The beginner would get very confused if he was told about the oneness from the start.

So GSD starts where you are: if you are in duality, he gives duality teachings. When you realise ONENESS, you don’t need to be told, it’s your own experience.

By the way, Sikh scriptures do exactly the same. In many parts it’s duality teachings, then in other verses it makes it clear there is only the ONE.
E.G. “paltu there is only the ONE there is no other”

“God is in every grain of sand, and sings in every cell in our body. And in every star.Has any Saint said otherwise?
But who really can see it and hear?”
- Spence

God is everywhere means he is infinite and without limit. He extends over all of time and space.

Now what does that statement actually mean? Is something is infinite and never ends, it means it has no boundary.
Boundaries are formed at the END of an object. An infinite object cannot have a boundary.
So if it has no boundary, how can it be seen?
The fish lives in water, can it SEE the water?
The water is all around but the fish cannot SEE it because to see the water, it has to get to the boundary, but it cannot.
In the same way, you cannot see an infinite object, no matter how hard you meditate

Hi Osho
You wrote
"you cannot see an infinite object, no matter how hard you meditate."

I guess you didn't connect with Brian Ji's post about calculus.

Every object you see contains an infinite number of discrete points.

All Infinity in the grain of sand
- William Blake

Also Osho
Baba Ji's personal involvement in one of the largest frauds in India's financial history absolutely is a matter of character.

If you're in this to become a better human being, Gurinder offers nothing, if we are to believe either your essay, the myriad published facts and court orders about his immediate family, or his own unwillingness to take public responsibility for his involvement.

In fact it appears worse. Those around him have been corrupted. Your own indifference to fraud reflects a corrupted sentiment as well.

I suggest that anyone truly interested in doing good, and avoiding doing harm stay as far away from RSSB as possible. It now appears to be a corrupting influence.

So, at the end of the day, a lot of noise over a small slippery guy whom you seem to want to represent but aren't willing to confront.

Osho, don't use Gurinder as your role model. That's a very bad idea.

There are so many souls completely corrupted by wealth and excess, that is a waste of time discussing them. It's common and degrading.

On the other hand, there are those who manage to avoid corruption.

But you don't seem interested in them. You think good behavior is unimportant. Again, a different value system.

Spence,
Unless I missed something important in the calculus article, it doesn’t change the fact that you cannot reach the end of an infinite object.
Infinite means it has no end. So how can you reach the end?
And you cannot see endless or infinite objects. Please correct me if I misunderstood something in the calculus article that refutes this.

Spence,
The fraud matter is of no interest to me. If it was, I would have raised the question.
An enlightened person is a human being, not a GIHF. “Perfection” as such does not exist.
Jesus overturned the tables - was that an act of perfection? Perfection is a myth.
As far as I know, Gurinder has not been summoned to a court on allegations of corruption or any criminal matter. He has not stood trial. All the rest is conjecture.
Sure, there are reports and investigations but why no trial?
If there is enough evidence to convict, the matter normally goes to trial.
I am not saying that nothing happened. Clearly it did, but he is still walking a Free man.
I don’t judge a man that easily. You must be perfect. I am not.
Jesus, who you quote often, said
“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone”

I am not a disciple of Gurinder, I am not even a follower. I don’t meditate or follow the teachings of RSSB. I used to, but not now. I am not protecting “my guru”
I have nothing to gain or lose either way.

However, I also have nothing against him. If it was someone else instead of him, I would take the same stance.

If there are followers of Gurinder who seek perfection in him, they are in trouble, because he doesn’t even claim perfection.

Many people look to him to take care of their soul at the time of death. He says it won’t happen.

Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
What benefit does he get by making that statement?

A “fraud” would say he IS coming at death, and if He doesn’t come, what will you do, sue him?

I challenge anyone reading this to give me an intelligent answer to that question.

Already the followers believe he has the power to come at death. There are many accounts of the guru coming at death. It would be so easy to say he will come at death.

So now, why would this “corrupt” person not continue with the same teaching, when all it can do is enhance his position.

Thank you Osho for asking important questions and sharing your experience at the Dera.

Then I read all the comments thinking how obviously, even on this blog, there is no "One". EveryOne with their opinions and egos and criticisms. It would be funny if it wasn't so nasty, as in "So, at the end of the day, a lot of noise over a small slippery guy whom you seem to want to represent but aren't willing to confront." Quite frankly I don't want to be at "One" with this type of person spewing spite and anger.

Its not easy to have compassion and forgiveness for everyone, never mind loving everyone. The only way to become One with everything is probably when we die and the drop merges with the ocean, whatever that is.

Now this joker has started "burn the books" meme. Hidden agenda in this is to create army of dumb people who shouldn't question the shady deals of Guru/ Conduct of Guru. After that he will start "burn the court cases against Guru" agenda. Everything that this joker says is scripted to be fool the seekers. This joker sits with the Guru to script the agenda to be fool people.

Hi Jen,
You write
“Then I read all the comments thinking how obviously, even on this blog, there is no "One". EveryOne with their opinions and egos and criticisms. It would be funny if it wasn't so nasty,”

Just to clarify the meaning of ONE.
It doesn’t mean to feel at one with everyone.
It means to have the absolute knowledge that only One thing exists.
That ONE isn’t born and doesn’t die,
It is your true nature. You are not the body, or the mind or the soul. All those will change.
The reason you are not the soul, is because individuality cannot coexist with the ONE, as it would then be many,

The japji of the Sikhs is all about the ONE.
Like this guy explains:
https://youtu.be/pTRTtYUONgs

Hi Osho
You see infinitesimal you look up at the stars, when you look into the face of a stranger. Speak less, look more.

Jen,
I know you don't want to save the world,but if you cannot muster the smallest grain of compassion for the victims, then your anger is misplaced.

Osho, the Guru doesn't have to be a god.

That he is just human and no Sat Guru is clear and fine so long as he is responsible.

But a theif who corrupts others, and takes away services to the poorest in order to enrich his own family and community is not worthy of comment..

Vinny
I really have no idea what you’re on but whatever it is, it’s probably illegal.
I can only guess that you are actually trying your hardest to make a point.

If you have a logical argument to make, backed up by evidence, I would love to hear it.

At the moment it just comes over like the ramblings of a mad man.

Your time might be better spent taking an English grammar class and maybe politeness 101

"I suppose one could say that Hitler didn't betray his self."

"You are right. He did not. But millions of Germans did betray their selves. That was the tragedy. Not that one man had the courage to be evil. But that millions had not the courage to be good.
John Fowles, The Magus

Osho, I think you quoted Jesus out of context when he overturned the shell companies making their home in the Lord's house

and said unto them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called the house of prayer,’ but ye have made it a den of thieves.”
Matthew 21:13


If you're in this to become a better human being, Gurinder offers nothing, if we are to believe either your essay, the myriad published facts and court orders about his immediate family, or his own unwillingness to take public responsibility for his involvement.

What would you have GSD do? A tearful admission of complicity?
Perhaps something more nuanced... "I was not involved but I take
responsibility for the actions of family members and others. We will
work to settle the accounts". Would that satisfy you or the other
conspiracy theorists about his direct personal involvement or even
suspicion he was "da mastermind"?

No, I doubt it. It would simply elevate the rhetoric that he was hiding
his "real role". He'd be tainted forever as yet another "low-life, greedy,
scumbag, corrupt Guru" like so many before. A thousand questions from
the curious, from predators circling in for the kill, would follow. Innocent
and guilty alike would be hounded for comment, for dirt to feed private
theories.

Oh, wait, how careless of me... the HC ruling cinched it. The Dhillon family is
civilly liable. GSD is personally implicated. It's a pattern of moral bankruptcy
too... tainted meds, sale of a charitable hospital, closure of a free school.
Yep, there's unassailable proof. GSD hadda know even if he's not up to his
neck in it. Only the blind fail to see the obvious and natter on about legal
proof. Sigh... I guess there's nothing more to convince mindless zombies
of his guilt until criminal charges come down.

Oops, I forget CofC pundits though have their third eyes open, they can spot
the corrupt, the greedy, the guilty unerringly. They even have sermons for GSD's
redemption at the ready, a beatific vision of his re-entry into the good graces
of tearfully rejoicing brothers and sisters.

All he needs to his confess, do his time for the crime, go on "Guru probation"
for a while. and... all will be forgiven. That is, of course, contingent on good
behavior, manifest contrition, divesting all trappings of wealth, and reporting
weekly to the CofC "Board of Guruly Rectitude" for a period of no less than ten
years. Any retrogression will result in dismissal from the gaddi and abdication to
a morally acceptable successor. The CofC "Council of the Worthy" will make
that determination.

GSD is wise to keep silent and let the courts rule. It's a helluva lot safer than the
CofC rabble in the gallery. Gawd... is that a noose one of 'em is waving.

Everywhere, every place and in every instance every RSSB guru, in particular Charan Singh, ( and Gurinder) state the true or real guru is the SHABD. They also emphasise if you don't "take the medicine", don't expect to make any progress. I.E. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. They personify the SHABD because most people need to identify with something tangible and grapple with the intangible. Most people who base their belief systems on faith alone and not through intelligent analysis are still in kindergarten. The Sant Mat teachings take on different meanings as you progress in your experiences and understanding of the so called path. Human Being. HUM and BE. If you actually take the time out to listen inside the beautiful hum of creation then you will be moved!


"You are right. He did not. But millions of Germans did betray their selves. That was the tragedy. Not that one man had the courage to be evil. But that millions had not the courage to be good.

Ah, yes. Those who weren't there wax lyrical about
"guilty bystanders". But, a desire to go on breathing is
pretty damn universal in murderous tyrannies.

Courage can be to go on begging for it to come even
when it doesn't. Who knows what secrets live in the hearts
of guilty bystanders.

"Our secret Germany is alive" --Klaus v. Stauffenberg

Osho
You are beating your head on a brick wall here. I do not profess to "get it" but I think I understand what you are saying. The Buddhist concept of emptiness. My understanding of the ONE is: Nothing arises dependently. There is no independent origination. Therefore in the arising of things (matter, life, whatever,) there is oneness. Also, as I have stated before, if in fact there be infinity, then no matter where YOU are placed, or anything else for that matter, you must always be at the centre, which radiates out oneness. EVERYTHING! It is difficult to ignore or overide criticism.
Really Sant Mat is for the Indian culture. Being born into a certain culture, and culture, gives you a resonance with the DNA memories of that culture. A sort of innate understanding of its "frequencies". The souls incarnating now, ( if reincarnation does in fact occur - I believe so, but it is not proven) are certainly not coming in at the same level as in ancient times. ( Meaning lower now).The majority need a tangible guru to look up to, to advise, to instruct. That is the level they are at. To digress a bit, how many people these days in the 21st century, really believe that Jesus existed; believe in a virgin birth; believe a dead man came back to life after being dead for 3 days? The Christ story is told again and again in many symbolic faiths.
Now this is a bit mean, what I am about to write, and a judgement. When I first became a "satsangi" 30 years ago, and for my first and only visit to the Dera, I saw broken people, ex druggies, ex drinkers, ex this, ex that, myself included, in fact pretty much the dregs of western society all there replacing their crutches or props and addictions with another - A new Master to take control!
Not one of you in the comments above mentioned the SHABD.

Dungeness, there is nothing wrong sarcasm, but usually sarcasm, if it's good, makes some obvious point. Otherwise it isn't sarcasm, just snarkiness.

So what actually is your point?

Spence you say: "...if you cannot muster the smallest grain of compassion for the victims..."

Maybe you, the perfect one, can muster compassion for the victims. I'm not all knowing and filled with self righteousness as you are. I am also a victim and do have compassion for others but am just a simple person struggling along doing the best I can.

Hi Osho
You asked
"Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
What benefit does he get by making that statement?"

Let's himself off the hook. Typical of a fraud.

Hi Osho
You wrote
"Infinite means it has no end. So how can you reach the end?"

Nope. You didn't get the Calculus thing. Every discreet moment of time, every fixed quantity whose differentials represent an infinite number of discreet parts. And every particle, every drop is one of an infinite series that sums to an integral total.

We are meant to see these things as Newton did, as Blake did, as Rumi and Shams did, who then described them, each in their own way.

All this scandal now in RS with GSD and all the changes the way its all being handles now the lack of continuity and harmony. Is this what M Charan Singh was aware of a direction for the path that RS has come on now and the twists and turns it was going to make centuries of work beset in illusions lost hopes and material devastation involving his appointed successor when he appointed GSD to run this huge enormous sangat? Its grown globally into a massive religion...and the teachings are wholesome...but now its on fire folks. ...for mostly the newer initiates. Delusion and broken trust and hearts.
Was this a destiny and karma that is being lived now by us all?

Did GSD not follow orders ?

Are we not understanding something and its causing anger?

What and how did this peaceful pure sant mat teachings and loving sangats over the centuries with bright eyed innocent students full of love and devotion get to feeling deceived.
What has gone wrong here?

Where is everyone going from here?.
Chy

Jen, none of us are victims just getting by unless we are helping some other person. Without that, we are wasting space and victimizing others.

But what is that help?

It could be a Zen master sharing her insights in the spirit of helping.

It could be a hospital consultant trying to help a famous surgeon make fewer lethal errors.

It could be a young girl at the local burger King spending her own time to help a struggling colleague figure out the soft serve machine.

But we all need to help each other every day.

That's our salvation. That's our way up and out.

Shabd is the road, but this idea that we can't help others until we first have helped ourselves is bullshit.

The two are one and the same.

The woman gave two cents.... It was all she had.

Hi Osho
You asked
"Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
What benefit does he get by making that statement?"

Let's himself off the hook. Typical of a fraud.

I don't understand your answer. Which hook?
He already has lots of people with accounts of the guru coming at death.
That's more than enough evidence for him to continue to say that he comes at death.
Nobody would challenge him on that. Rather they can't understand it when he says he is not coming.

I am asking why a "fraud" would make his own life harder?

People already believe he is coming at death. A "fraud" would not say he is not coming. He has nothing to gain by saying that.


Dungeness, there is nothing wrong sarcasm, but usually sarcasm, if it's good, makes some obvious point. Otherwise it isn't sarcasm, just snarkiness.

So what actually is your point?

Which? Your off-thread comment about Hitler" Or the other one in
response to your tiresome homilies about GSD's moral bankruptcy?

Spence,
I am bit a Bible expert, but I have read a little of it.
Did Jesus not say he comes to break the old law of "an eye for an eye"?

And did he not restore the centurian's ear that a zealous Simon cut off with his sword?

And did he not say " those who live by the sword, perish by the sword?

Did he not say "judge not, that thou be not judged"
And of course the "let him who is without sin......."

So then, why are you so quick to judge, when even no court of law has summoned him?

Am I missing something here?

Only when you resonate with the "Shabd" ( call it what you will, the oneness - for it is nameless) can you truly see things for what they are.
A blade of grass, is a blade of grass made up of various aggregates, to become, to exist in this realm!. Dependent in order to arise.
I am an animator in human form. My MASTERS ( female cats have the same kinds of animators I have, just confined into their form. When the Mahayana Buddhists talk of loving every being as though they were your past mother, then you become the mother of love and that love fills you with the greatest joy and happiness!

Spence, can you clarify? Today you're saying GSD is a fraud, but weeks ago you mentioned having fireside chats with GSD (and Charan Singh) within. If GSD is a fraud, how can he project to you within? I'm not trying to defend GSD here or call you out in any way, I'm just trying to understand how both could be possible, when they seem to contradict.

The above comment of mine should read: ."I am not a Bible expert but I have read a little of it "

Osho
You wrote
" no court of law has summoned him?"

The High Court has ordered him, by name, to pay his delinquent bills. We're beyond the question stage, the judgment stage and are now at the order stage and on the verge of the contempt stage.

That is all he is responsible for.
But to lie about it merely compounds the problem.

We are all here to help. But a fraud hides in the dark and will not come forth, even knowing his brothers and sisters are compassionate.

Because it requires acknowledging one's own shortcomings. That is a risk an honest man or woman takes as part of being a human being. Painful, yes. But it is a matter of duty.

So if you wish to cite Christ, we have in his example a true teacher who lived in poverty and as a matter of duty and love for God, took on the sins of his followers.

In Gurinder you have an individual caught up in big money, hundreds of millions in over - leveraged loans to buy even more property, who cannot acknowledge his own shortcomings and pay his own immense debts. And then lies to the Sangat about it.


They are on opposite sides of the scale.

Fairy--
"Not one of you in the comments above mentioned the SHABD."
Osho--
"So He says 'you have to meditate' because the disciples are already of the opinion that in order to realise God they have to DO something so he gives them something to do."

Does GSD speak about SHABD anymore or just the ONE? I simply can't believe he'd minimize the practice of meditation, unless Sant Mat is no longer Sant Mat, he's trying to trick disciples with reverse psychology, or he's totally messing with Osho's head.

Hi Osho
You asked
"I am asking why a "fraud" would make his own life harder?"

That's what frauds do.
They try to make life simple for themselves by making life harder on everyone else.

It's the basic fraud formula.

"At one point, I said “but YOU say ..........” and he interrupted me. “No, it’s not what I say. I am nobody to say anything. Just see what the previous gurus said and what the scriptures say.” He also said “Please, let’s be clear. I cannot erase your karmas, I cannot do anything for you. I can only guide you and the rest is up to you. The guru is only a guide and a teacher.” Clearly he doesn’t claim to be a “perfect living master” with all the notions that go with that title.

Then Gurinder should quit his role as RSSB guru.

The previous gurus did say that a portion of the seeker's karma is taken on by the guru at initiation.
Such "karma taking" was a feature Sawan Singh's relationship with his guru, Jaimal Singh.
The Kirpal line of gurus still upholds "karma taking" as a key part of RS theology. They didn't project the idea out of thin air; it's what the early gurus of RS explicitly taught.

To my knowledge, Charan Singh never gainsayed this. Never said "the guru can't do anything for you."

If Gurinder wants to say that he's just a "guide," I have to wonder just what he thinks his guidance is? As far as I can tell from what people report of his bon mots, Gurinder doesn't seem to believe in anything. He certainly doesn't believe in traditional sant mat if he maintains that the guru "can't do anything," and yet he wears white and pretends to be a sant mat satguru.

Some might say that Charan downplayed the guru concept too, but Charan clearly believed that he was somehow an agent and conduit of Sawan Singh's divine power. Gurinder though seems to have gone full Krishnamurti on the sangat. Actually that's not true. Gurinder is going half-Krishnamurti. Pretending to uphold sant mat, demanding devotion, and then preaching that there really never was a Path of the Masters, and calling those who are devoted to him fools.

"But I guess if he did that, then he'd have to answer to the millions in India that eat this stuff up. Maybe he wants to but the Dera management doesn't want him to. The Dera industry/machine has become too big to dismantle."

It wouldn't be the first time a guru stepped down.

He's rich and could leave any time he wants and live comfortably. The only thing holding him back is the addiction to power.

"Not everyone is at the same stage. When a person comes to the path, he wants books and information. Those books are necessary to whet the appetite. "

"So GSD starts where you are: if you are in duality, he gives duality teachings. When you realise ONENESS, you don’t need to be told, it’s your own experience."

This is just so irrational and embarrassing. You put so many words into that idiot gurus mouth and make so many justifications that wouldn't pass the scrutiny of a 3 year old.

You're unintentionally saying that Indians are beginners who are too dumb to get your "oneness" theory. Because the difference in teachings isn't based on experience. It's based on geography and race essentially.

And it's not just in the books, either. Anyone who has been to the huge dera satsangs knows that they're very different than the ones given in the west.

You don't have any good explanations. You have bad excuses. Please stop.

With the financial matters, why so much interest?

There is a saying:

"Jo karangi so bharangi, tu kaun bhai udhaas? "

The one who does (right or wrong) will reap the fruit of his Action, why are you so sad (concerned)?

When he says "meditate" nobody listens.

The slightest sign of a scandal, and everyone is all ears.

Some people are rubbing their hands in glee, they just can't wait for him to get what he deserves.

I can understand this if you hate him, but not if you were a follower


Osho, seriously consider what you're saying here, which is that there's radha soami for the plebs like all us exers and believers in that stupid old 1.0 sant mat, and then there's radha soami for the super initiated who've "realized" oneness, and that so far literally only you and this guru and a few other highly advanced souls know it.

He's not saying this oneness stuff to anyone else. He's selling books that contradict it. And he's saying contradictory things to millions upon millions of people. So it's just you and Gurinder who are in on this oneness stuff. You, and a masterful talker and likely conman who has amassed tens of millions through fraud just happen to have achieved this level of understanding of spirituality that nobody else has.

Do you think you and Gurinder are truly bhai bhai bros on this oneness thing? Is that really it? You're cool with him, and you're on his level?

Or is it more likely that just as he tells hundreds of others whatever they want to hear from his guru pulpit, he's probably telling you what you want to hear too? And maybe just as hundreds of others are lulled by his charm that gets enhanced simply by having confidence and standing on a stage, you're being seduced by a good talker as well?

Because I'm just really struggling to believe in this "y'all just don't GET IT like me and my homeboy gurinder do" thing that you're presenting.


Osho: "Why would he say “I am not coming at the time of death?”
Osho: What benefit does he get by making that statement?"

Spence: Let's himself off the hook. Typical of a fraud.

Spence. I don't pretend to fathom why you are personalizing these
attacks on GSD. But, his statement is typical of all mystics who stress
the real master is inside you. That's the one who is always with you and
is there to guide you at death.

The satsangi, trapped in external forms, wants to run after the physical
master with an assurance GIHF will hop on the astral jet stream to rescue
him at the last moment. GSD, I believe, wants to dissuade him from that
fairy tale. The outer master only points you in the right direction and gives
you some busy work to occupy the mind until you succeed within. The goal
is to befriend and see the inner master.

Not that it matters much Spence as this is not the core of the argument but where is stated in the King James Bible that Christ ever said or suggest that he "took on the sins of his followers" as you wrote?

By the way:
In that red letter version the amount of words attributed to Christ is not more than a couple of A4's …. and ...see how many books were needed to explain what he said, even today they go on writing. He never said a word to his audience about to read the works of the scribes etc to understand what he said. According him his words speak for themselves.

Anami,

There is no point setting aside time to do daily meditation, if the rest of the time a person is of poor conduct. I am of the opinion a person should aspire to be the best they can be every second of their present time. Always striving to be mindful and careful. In tune with the infinite! In tune with life, joy and love. To vibrate with a frequency that promotes these aspirations. If some people need a human Master, then good on them. If they don't, good on them too .

It is just time all the lies and analogies were changed to facts.

Spence.

Do you really believe that Christ existed? Do you really believe the New Testament stories those mind controlling men wrote hundreds of years after the supposed Christ and his contemporaries had long passed?

They are all "fairy" stories. If you believe in the literal sayings of the "good book" - the bible, then you must believe that I am the fairy I say I am!

I still have a desire to reside one day in Anami Lok, or Sukhavati, the Pure Lands of Jambudvala (?) with my darling little cats for ever and ever going on and on. That is the fairy-angel in me. It's all in my mind and , " You know nothing, " John Snow!


Osho
You wrote
" no court of law has summoned him?"

The High Court has ordered him, by name, to pay his delinquent bills. We're beyond the question stage, the judgment stage and are now at the order stage and on the verge of the contempt stage.
- Spence

Has he appeared in a court of law, charged with any criminal offence?

The answer is NO.

You are obviously not familiar with how courts work in regard to financial matters such as this.

I will give you a personal example. I had a court verdict against me (well my company to be exact). Then a bailiff came to a previous address which was also the company registered address.
The owner of the property asked me to resolve this otherwise the bailiffs were threatening to still his locks.
I called the bailiff company And met the bailiff an hour later. I paid the bill which was £1500 even though I was given no firm proof it was my bill.
I called the court the next day and realised it was all a mistake. They had the wrong company, but that did not stop the court making a judgement against my company, and the bailiff collected from me personally. It took me 6 months and a 3 hour drive and around 20 hours on the phone to finally get the case reopened and recover my money.

So having a judgement against you is not proof of any guilt or criminal offence.
It is not even proof of money owed, only alleged.

Also the court order is that money owed to malvinder and Shivinder should be paid to the court instead of to them. Because they claim he owes them money.

Basically the court does not trust malvinder or Shivinder to pay the money if Gurinder paid them directly, so the order says “pay the court instead”

It’s not a criminal conviction or such a big deal as you make out. It’s not even proof of any wrong doing. Yet you act as if he is a convicted criminal.

Show me a single court judgement that names him as a criminal.

If you can’t then you have no right to call him a criminal either.

Spence, I referred to Jesus and specifically asked about his views on forgiveness and accusing others.

I quote below what I asked:


And did he not restore the centurian's ear that a zealous Simon cut off with his sword?

And did he not say " those who live by the sword, perish by the sword?

Did he not say "judge not, that thou be not judged"
And of course the "let him who is without sin......."

So then, why are you so quick to judge,

Jesus told Simon to forgive 7 times.
When Simon said “7 times?”
He said, “no, I say 77 times”

You haven’t forgiven even once but have already convicted him and sent him to jail and thrown away the key

The "one".
Jen you hit a point that opens up my sort of place now...
In crowds or just thinking of life humanity many things here...I often just feel neutral. I dont feel love or anger just BEING just AWARE of my surroundings say in a crowd. I speak with someone and dont feel any emotions that linger just a neutral pleasant moment. (Road rage is not a loving compassionate place) we all get that one...
Love is an unusual emotion. Its often tied to and really is just something that has triggered dopamine in our brains...the excitement of the old
"Masters coming. See look there he is and OH MY GOD he just SMILED at me"
The childlike excitement that becomes tears of joy and love.... Then it slowly returns to a normal thinking state of mind...
We cannot feel this emotion everytime we see a human we do not feel deep love everytime we interact with absolutely everyone. .although it seemed so in observations of m. Charan Singh...but back to everyday folks , for people we do not feel this every interaction ...especially if they do something that annoys us. The dopamine is deactivated.

ONENESS and universal love is the highest frequency...
My opinion is that at the highest frequency when weve merged in with our creative power of course after leaving all the list of "bodies"...we will feel and then only know what being ONE feels like.
Love word may not exist.....
Just energy.
Chy

Anami, Thank you for your comments.

Yes he does talk about the Shabd. And he says you must meditate. And no he is not messing with my head.

He was actually very clear on Sunday.

He answers people according to where they are. It is inappropriate to speak about the ONENESS when the person is steeped in duality. It will only confuse him.
I agree with him, I just never looked at it that way before. Nobody can understand the ONENESS just by hearing about it a few times. It takes a level of commitment to realise the nature of ONENESS. It’s not just a theory. It’s a realisation that changes your whole perception


Hi Osho
You asked
"I am asking why a "fraud" would make his own life harder?"

That's what frauds do.
They try to make life simple for themselves by making life harder on everyone else.

It's the basic fraud formula.

Spence please read what you just wrote.
Because by saying he is not coming at death makes his life Harder because he has to deal with all the frustration of people who want the easy solution.

You are confirming my point: only a genuine person will make that statement. The fraud will continue with the promise that he will come at death.


Then Gurinder should quit his role as RSSB guru.

The previous gurus did say that a portion of the seeker's karma is taken on by the guru at initiation.
Such "karma taking" was a feature Sawan Singh's relationship with his guru, Jaimal Singh.
The Kirpal line of gurus still upholds "karma taking" as a key part of RS theology. They didn't project the idea out of thin air; it's what the early gurus of RS explicitly taught.

To my knowledge, Charan Singh never gainsayed this. Never said "the guru can't do anything for you."
- j

Hi j,
Your comments confirm the pint I was making to Spence. Making those statements cannot be the actions of a “fraud”
A fraud would continue to uphold the claims that he is all powerful and can take karmas etc.
I have met many gurus in my time and they revel in the power they have over people who believe they have special powers.
They would NEVER deny having those powers. Gurinder denied having them and claims to be a human being.
Clearly not the way a fraud would behave.


Enjoyed reading it.
Every sentence from HIM, I felt in HIS own voice vibrating in my ears. simply amazing.
I felt as I was sitting there in audience and was attending this dialogue b/w HIM and Osho.

Thanks again, Osho and Brian for sharing the updates of conversation with HIM.

Those of us who are under the grip of mind,
could not even have any clarity of their own path,
and go where the wind blows.

Babaji has actually taken uncountable sins on His shoulders, because HE can.
In the process, HE has put HIS own dignity at stake, the beings worth nothing to humanity calls HIM fraud, that's what Masters allow and accept.

Study the ranbaxy chapter thoroughly and anyone can understand the decade long misdeeds by the singh brothers, as early as reported since 2004.
Getting them out of business was actually inevitable, but processing it was difficult. It happened, for the good, for them and for all.

HE promoted the shift of leadership, and under the hands of Sun it's back in business.
Just a couple days back it's reported that Sun Pharam's consolidated financial reports are going to be in bigger profits due to Ranbaxy's sales picking up again.

Why do we take it on discount when some people like Phil from UK clearly mentioned the huge sum of money. Nobody is even remotely interested in investigating the inner workings of the Masters.

Perfect living master is the One who has ascended to Sachkhand, i.e. perfected the Spiritual Quest of Soul. - not the body. We consider and ask HIM w.r.t body and HE denies, perfectly.
Except HIM no one is here who is perfect.

Jesse, He says the ONENESS thing to others too, not just to me.
He is very clear in his position. However just hearings things second hand on here is not the same as being there and hearing it yourself.

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"When he says "meditate" nobody listens."

Aren't you being quite hard on the Sangat?

Have you not met the true Saints sitting at the back of the auditorium?

Hi Um
24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
1 Peter 2:24

The quotes are references to Isaiah, who predicted a savior would come, and is a reference to the old Judaic tradition of the sacrificial goat. The scapegoat.

Entire blog posted by :
J 10:29pm august 13

This is exactly what Im driving at....
So if babaji would put videos transcripts of his talks...all complete non edited so EVERYONE can play as desired and replay and not just share himself with a select few and an wealthy inner circle of "managers" referred to as
Reps. These folks have recorded information but are told no doubt to keep it from "us" ..these are not the same as the old school ones overall.
Are we just donation plate dupes for an echelon of managers?
If secrecy goes away then we can understand the differences in gurinder today vs. The other masters and possibly answer more questions.
Perhaps this openness can go 2 ways.
More devotees or less devotees.
Is babaji able to take that risk?.

Thank you Osho!! for sharing babajis talks with you...you presented it very well.
In all fairness to you though again now he needs to talk to the people not use you for a spokesman or anyone else...or soon you will have the job running RS...dont laugh stranger things have happened....
Chy


What follows below really explains what is probably going on..and it is based Faqir Chands findings which Hines has explored to some extent.....


Religare, Gurinder, and Beas Satsang, (Part Two.)


Ref Thoughts, and Visions Blog 2010


The Bloggers comments on the two articles by Brian Hines................


http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/04/the-big-money-surrounding-radha-soami-satsang-beas.html

http://hinessight.blogs.com/church_of_the_churchless/2010/04/rssbs-ties-to-religare-mix-money-and-spirituality.html


Sometime after my initiation into the Radhasoami Satsang Beas, or RSSB someone said to be an English teacher who worked in Spain came out with a claim. He revealed that Gurinder (shortly before Charan passed on) had done some kind of business "mistake," but the Dera Management sent a message insisting that he was a Perfect Master. Hence, he could do no wrong. The English teacher then asked me what sort of power we were dealing with? This was somewhat disturbing at the time as I did have some doubts about Gurinder which unfortunately are now bourne out by the revelations at Brian Hines Blog.

Indeed, when he became the new Satguru for RSSB he reportedly asked a certain question a few times. "How do you know that I am not a fraud?" My Satsangi, and Non-Satsangi friends found that amusing..

Another "red flag" was raised. When I was with friends at a home Satsang in which there was mention about the construction for a runway of sorts at Haynes Park so that Gurinder could land his aircraft! However, this came to nothing....probably due to the bureaucratic local planning authorities!! Admitedly, I did not think much of this...and everyone seemed to regard it as amusing. But is a "runway" a best way of using money....possbily money which originated from the Satsang itself...?

The question which I am concerned here is this. Does it all matter? In one sense, it does as revealed in Brian Hines two articles. But it must be remembered that the physical Master like many incarnations in India is seen as the physical manifestation of God. What I present here are three ways of looking at this subject with an open mind. Admitedly, I am a bit of a Radhasoami apologist because I feel there is more than meets the eye ....


KEY CLAIM I.


Whether Gurinder is perfect, or not probably does not necessarily matter as the following extract reveals, and is believed to have been said by Sawan Singh..


“....If the Guru himself has not reached Satlok, but his Guru is perfect or, like Swami Ji Maharaj, has come straight from Anami(the Nameless Region, the "highest" of all Regions),he will take his disciples up to the stage he has attained himself, and beyond that his Guru, or his Gurus Guru, or Swami Ji Maharaj Himself will take them. There should be no worry about this.”


Ref With the Three Masters, by Munshi Ram page 68, 2001 edition (minor editing)


But the question is this? Why should an "imperfect" Master exist? The answer may be that the Mauj (or Divine Will) of God wants to "wind up" RSSB for reasons best known to Itself. Indeed, the whole organization has become absurdly big, and "bloated". It does need to radically reduce its size. Ideally, Gurinder should step down from his position of Master, and possibly have set up a number of "Satgurus" who would be elected by advanced Satsangis. Such spiritual elections have already notably happened in Dayalbagh. However, this is unlikely to happen unless there is a serious power struggle at the top....

Furthermore, many people have complained that nothing is experienced in meditation after many years of practice. What is required is a database on which to draw upon made up of anonymous Satsangis who could give attempted descriptions of their experiences. This could act as an "encouragement".


KEY CLAIM II.


In RSSB the the physical Satguru is meant to be omnisicient....but there is plenty of evidence on the contrary though a disciple would simply regard this as as test of faith, and/or come out with some kind of rationalization......


........Just after Maharaj Charan Singh former head of Radha Soami Satsang Beas died in 1990 a book appeared on him, and his discourses entitled Treasure Beyond Measure. In it he discussed his own experiences about the utter suprise that he was appointed Sant Satguru in 1951 by the previous deceased incumbent Maharaj Jagat Singh Ji. He regarded the whole matter as a cruel trick of fate. To a Satsangi, or devotee this shows his utter humility! He was pretending that he was not a real Master!! However, what perhaps was Maharaj Charan Singh really saying without giving the game away? He was arguably indicating to those "in the know" that he was telling the truth pure, and simple as far as he could understand it at the time.

To understand what follows it is best to examine a mystic called Faqir Chand. He, like Maharaj Charan Singh was regarded as a much respected teacher of shabd yoga. But Chand claimed that though he was regarded as the physical manifestation of God he was not omniscient. He did not know anything about the miracles that his devotees expressed to him in which his Radiant Form would appear in the outer, or inner worlds of matter, or spirit. He found this same unawareness with other masters of the Shabd Yoga tradition, and this is borne out by evidence. He concluded that it was the BELIEF AND FAITH of the devotees which generated the phenomena of inner visions, and miracles due to their devotional love for him. However, this did not imply necessarily that they were merely hallucinations, but in many, perhaps most cases that it was their Higher Self (ie ones Personal God) which appeared in a Radiant Form that looked like him! Thus, Maharaj Charan Singh may be indicating the "truth" indirectly of the above phenomenon. It should be added that for the Chandian Effect to be "genuine" in the guru world one, or more of a line of Masters should be bona fide in the spiritual sense.


A rather odd thing occured in connection with myself. This is not a meditation experience per se but happened quite naturally, and spontaneously as I was walking. An image of Gurinder Singh appeared in the area of my Third Eye in a "circle" shape. He was dressed with his turban, and a white suit....the one which I wore at initiation back in 1993! The image changed but with the same suit. Perhaps this "mind trick" was suggesting in a crude manner that the Master was myself which is rediculous! However, my present Lower Self entangled in mind, and matter is ofcourse NOT the same as my pure Higher Self which is what Chand was really on about. But it was an odd "mind trick".


However, I do believe rightly, or wrongly that "God-Realised" Masters exist who are to a high degree "omniscient". Yet, most are probably not. Moreover, I suspect that Gurinder(or should I say Babaji?) probably fits into the "non-omniscient" catergory. It may well be that this process of unfoldment (ie.a degree(s) of "omniscience") may be "gradually" developed either before, or after a person becomes a Master. This is a big subject, and appears to have something to do with the mechanics of higher conciousness.


KEY CLAIM III.

Depending on ones sensitivity when I have attended Satsang at Southall there is an intense concentration of the subtle energies of higher conciousness. This awareness I believe has been increased after my experiences with Sant Harjit Singh. What is significant is that this "sea" of higher energies does NOT come from the Satsangis alone. In other words, it may well have a divine source, or sources. I recall feeling this Power descending from the ceiling of the Satsang Hall in a most gentle, and spontaneous manner. Sometimes ofcourse, one can see a white glow in some of the Satsangis themselves which is extremely subtle.

When I leave the Southall Satsang this higher energy of conciousness can be experienced in the wonderful park nearby. I also recall Sant Harjit Singhs energy not only in his house but also outside...and beyond ofcourse. This is a matter of personal experience, and I cannot prove it unfortunately...

Naturally enough, critics would say that the above is experienced in places like football matches, and pop music festivals...when the atmosphere becomes electric!! However, what I experience (along with many others) is something far more than this. It is A POWER unlike anything of this world...

In other words, RSSB is still a living faith par excellence....................


Hi Dungeness
When you start to hallucinate seeing Gurinder change into Maharaji, as perfectly real and detailed, as Gurinder was, as I have, the difference between inner and outer saints becomes arbitrary.

"A fraud would continue to uphold the claims that he is all powerful and can take karmas etc."

Don't get me wrong. I'm not arguing that there is such a thing as satgurus who can take on karma, join people to the sound current, are "perfect masters" who are literally God in Human Form. There may be such masters, but I don't claim to know if there are.

But Gurinder Singh is a guru in line of gurus that make such claims. Therefore, if he says he doesn't have such attributes and powers, then what exactly is Gurinder's purpose as "guru" of RSSB?

Gurinder says he's a "guide." Again, a guide to what? What exactly is the purpose of the path, and where is it going? What is the need for an RSSB guru when the guru is effectively saying he has nothing to give us, nothing to teach us, and we're all completely on our own?

Does Gurinder believe in God? Does he believe in an afterlife? What does he believe meditation is supposed to do for us? These are fundamental issues that are at the heart of sant mat, and yet this guru doesn't seem to offer answers to these questions. Instead, he seems to think that these basics of sant mat are silly.

I think if Gurinder were truly humble, he'd step down. Instead, he wants to have it both ways. He wants to play the sat guru and enjoy all the wealth and pomp of that position. But when his followers call upon him for answers, Gurinder has a perverse habit of calling them nitwits for believing in sant mat, i.e., "what the books say."

What is the point of following a guru, spending hours a day meditating on a guru, who says he's not a guru at all?

What's the point of devoting one's life to a Path when the chief exponent of that Path as much as says there is no Path?

This is all just one one of looking at it, of course. I'm sure lots of people look at Gurinder, and Charan, and think they're examples of wonderfully humble men who exemplify what a genuinely true Guru should be.

But I think it's equally legit to conclude they were 2 men who were thrust by family fate into make the best of a bad situation. Instead of being truly honest, they made a compromise of the Path and of their mission as gurus.

In either case, I leave a standing question: what does Gurinder Singh say is the purpose of sant mat?

Hi Osho
When the high court ordered Gurinder et al to pay them directly, they took Malvinder and Shivinder off the hook for that responsibility, placing it on Gurinder et al shoulders, by name. They had already determined liability. That's how the high court works.
They could have made a mistake, of course. But their order came after their legal due diligence.and if they erred it was only in presuming all those hundreds of millions of dollars in loans to Gurinder et al have legal standing.

As for forgiveness, I'm not sure you understand what that means.
There is no question of forgiveness. The issue is transparency, acknowledgment, honesty. Then automatically, all things are forgiven. Even forgotten.

Do you forgive the Sangat for the crimes of ignorance you accuse them of in nearly every post?

Why are the rich and powerful admired, and always the poor and meek criticised? That is a character flaw among many. Moths drawn to a flame of destruction, so that they lose the capacity to enjoy the power and grace of a child.

Do you accept that you yourself might be wrong?

Then welcome to the club.

Information should not be used by you to prove you are right and the rest of the world is wrong.

We are all learning every day.

And if the courts and journalists come out with new facts, then our views will change with them. Just as they already have.

But to avoid acknowledging facts because they are unpleasant isn't honest. To get angry with someone personally for stating a painful truth is not rational.

As for Gurinder, and each of us, we should all pay our bills and not make excuses. We should all be honest, especially about our shortcomings and difficulties, even Gurinder. And that is so that we can help each other out of the pit, rather then get angry with the person throwing the rope down to us.

Every day we have an opportunity to step forward into the light, or backwards into the shadow.

These are not complicated things. They become complicated when we try to make excuses for anyone. That is the corrupting influence of a bad leader, but the responsibility always rests on our shoulders.



ONENESS and universal love is the highest frequency...
My opinion is that at the highest frequency when weve merged in with our creative power of course after leaving all the list of "bodies"...we will feel and then only know what being ONE feels like.
Love word may not exist.....
Just energy.
. - Chy

ONENESS is a non-duality state.
It’s not in the future
There is no “when”
It’s already the case right now.
Enlightenment is not a future event.
It’s when you realise that only the ONE is and always was. No separation.
No individual, no “I” no Ego.
No person gets there.

Oh, okay. Then GSD isn't changing the teachings so much as offering an angle. No conflict there, and it could help disciples carry on in the face of frustration--days, months, years and decades without apparent progress, because the process is more like solving the hardest puzzle ever than punching a time clock. There's nothing radical in that. How many times did Maharaj Ji say to approach meditation with love and devotion and not mechanically? Getting into the right space takes everything, it seems, 24/7, unlike switching on the TV for a while. We're PhD students, not day laborers.

I don't see anything wrong with Baba Ji saying he's only a guide and a teacher either. It's completely traditional. I'll go to Spiritual Gems again, because it's at my fingertips. Sawan Singh said, "The Master does not expect anyone to idolize Him. A boy, reading in primary classes, cannot judge the attainments of a B.A. or M.A. The Master only wants you to look upon Him as your elder brother or friend, to follow His directions, as those of a benefactor, and work hard to go into the higher planes within you. When you go there, you will see for yourself the position and dignity of the Master in those regions." (Letter 58)

Are there really higher planes or not? That too would depend on perspective. As a child I thought adults had every freedom. Not so, as any adult knows.

Still, the financial mishegaas bothers me, and it bothers me that GSD is so remote to English speakers. Is there a single Baba Ji satsang in English on video, audio or in print???

Thank you Spence… interesting these letters of Peter, I have never read them before. I will take some time to do so.

The point that I wanted to make, was, that none of the claims Christian theologians make and their disciples, are made by Christ himself. I must add to it … not even the claims made by his own disciples.

Yes, Christ was prepared to pay the price for his spiritual preachings and that is what he did but that was not the goal of his coming.

Nowhere, in his own words, he claims that he came to die for the sins or anything else of others. Later they made a savior out of him, that is what the christian scribes and theologians have invented.

If you have an red-letter version of the bible, just for once, read only what christ says … it is revealing.

Ok 3 options ive heard...
For Osho and others to read...

..1st story .at time of death the master appears to save the satsangi from kal (mind) the angel of death...who I saw vision 2 weeks before my brother died.. He was non satsangi...I didnt know he was going to die as well either...no clue...
The angel gave me a message around a death...I didnt get it clearly and dissed it...then it happened...
.
Ok this is the story we heard when m. Charan was ruling.# 1st story we heard and falls into prior sant mat gurus as well.master will come for the soul ..not just "good satsangis". And appear...
Of course he m. Charan always said that he is not a master . It was always him giving praises to the great master...and backwards as the saints go.
Next story #2....from various satsangis and m. Charan again on another different question answer session...
The master will appear if you are focused and have no attachments pulling on your mind at death time and if you really are in a place to receive the master otherwise HE MAY NOT APPEAR but the satsangis soul will still be taken care of.
GSD. #3.. Some words to the effect that ive heard again 3rd hand is that he says : that he babaji will not appear at ones death....

Now then the finish of 4th and last scenario:

There is no where to go nobody to meet one at death the inner master is our own self god form concept so therefore there is no one to show up at the satsangis death...nobody. Not any master anywhere...
So ...GSD is not considered fraud because he honestly says hes not coming.

M. Charan is not a liar either as hes always been of a clean slate to my knowledge sincere and very compassionate...and I have love for him and spent time with him to cultivate that feeling...

So why doesnt someone then tally this up and go with my 4th scenario and decide if thats the answer....?...
Ive seen several elder satsangis since deceased who were very disillusioned because they were near death and had not yet seen the radiant form and felt the reason was that they were bad satsangis in that regard didnt deserve the form of the master. They sure believed though that the at LEAST upon death the master would appear...

And now again its all being presented differently.
These situations are being dumped on Osho to try to convey what babaji has said to him and Osho tries to honestly inform but come on babaji needs to speak as Ive said in 2 other blogs. This is his job with the sangats not to be passed off ...now of course I love hearing what Osho says babaji said...please go ahead and share as you feel...its good seva Osho trying to help anyone to understand what you have to share.
If babaji feels its all different now and he sees it a new way....GREAT !! PLEASE SHARE WITH US....were here to grow...
We WILL grow with or without RS teachings. We cannot help but grow and develop and learn new things and help each other...to see new ideas..not dogmas but feelings and thoughts that do open our channels..
Chy

The debate on definition of "oneness" is endless.
In my opinion, many, in particular Spence, Chy and Amar make excellent points on this blog.
Babaji is a spiritual leader, whether by choice or appointment. He and the organization under him should be exemplary of leadership for the the greater goals of humanity in having spirituality as a core. As preached by the group, humanism should be the foundation for any spirituality. Rise above the illnesses of the society.
The 15 Diseases of Leadership, According to Pope Francis | HBR Ascend
https://hbrascend.org/topics/diseases-leadership-pope-francis/

"ONENESS is a non-duality state."

It's also an unfalsifiable religious and philosophical theory. Please stop proselytizing.

"Christ was prepared to pay the price for his spiritual preachings and that is what he did but that was not the goal of his coming."

Christ came to smoke hydroponic weed and chase women.

His highest teaching was "stfu bro. You have no chill and you're ruining my chances with this stripper."

When he talked about slapping cheeks, it wasn't about forgiveness. It was about models twerking on rap video sets for cash.

I know what Jesus REALLY meant because I'm realized whereas you all desire to achieve my status.

Hi Um
The Bible, like all spiritual literature, is a book of inspired writings written in metaphor and poetry by limited, fallable human beings like you and I, to explain transcendent subjective and objective experience. Often that is labeled divine or 'God', but those are just cultural references to explain something so beautiful it defies description.

Look up at the stars on a clear night. Consider the immensity of the creation. And the miracle that we exist as part of it, however tiny. Same humbling experience.

Nothing, including the words attributed to Christ, should be taken literally. The issue of substitutionary atonement, that one person can take on the debts of another, can be taken in two ways. In the words attributed to Christ, he says that each must follow the law and pay our debts. But then he says the comforter will come inside us to help us. Paul says this gift of the spirit is the only way to cleanse us of sins, even though Christ took on the sins of the world. So both messages are there. We must take full responsibility for ourselves, but with our weaknesses, that's impossible. Except that through Christ, or the guru, or teacher,... The Spirit, which is really God, in some subjective internal experience, comes inside us to help us overcome life's challenges to our own weaknesses.

These are universal themes across religions. We must take responsibility for ourselves, and deep within us is the undefineable force, spirit, source, that through focus and devotion, helps us transcend our weaknesses, even if only momentarily, to gain the power over our own shortcomings, so that we can stop harming ourselves and others.

It's a beautiful sentiment.

"13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

"15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”

"16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”

"17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

"Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

"19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

"21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4: 13-24

24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4: 24

That is the subjective and transcendent experience of Spirit, and the objective facts of objective worldly truth.

Both are worthy of our devotion. And both should be honored.

This is, what I believe, Guru Brian Ji is trying to hammer home in us.

Jesse, neither I do not know what Christ was up to .. he is not around to ask him …. and even than we would not know but that is an other matter.

What I wrote is based upon the words of Christ himself as they appear in red color in the St James version of the bible.

Probably he was like you, reading your words.

Spence, you have not given an answer to any points raised.

Firstly are there any documents about the loans and terms of repayment?

No? Then how do you know they were loans?

I haven't read the court papers but would be very surprised if the court is shifting the responsibility to Gurinder.
If so, please show me the court order.

Next you ask me

Do you forgive the Sangat for the crimes of ignorance you accuse them of in nearly every post?

Crime? Ignorance is a crime now?

I don't hold anyone guilty so there is nothing to forgive.
You do, hence my question.


As for forgiveness, I'm not sure you understand what that means.
There is no question of forgiveness. The issue is transparency, acknowledgment, honesty. Then automatically, all things are forgiven. Even forgotten. - Spence

What?
You are reinventing the meaning of forgiveness
Forgiveness his nothing to do with the other person.
It is what you do.
Obviously by making that statement you are saying he does not deserve forgiveness.

FYI he does not even need your forgiveness because he is not even guilty except in your mind.

Like I said before, where is the arrest warrant? He is walking free because there is no criminal case against him.

You need to keep this on perspective. The type of court order you mention is nothing criminal.

Spence, thank you for your elaborate answer.

>>These are universal themes across religions. We must take responsibility for ourselves, and deep within us is the undefineable force, spirit, source, that through focus and devotion, helps us transcend our weaknesses, even if only momentarily, to gain the power over our own shortcomings, so that we can stop harming ourselves and others. <<

In NATURE Spence, there is no "weakness". Weakness is an cultural invention and as such part of an tale or game. I do understand your words and there is nothing wrong with them as long as one takes the cultural overlay as beong part of nature.

There is nothing that can or should be changed for the better, there is not better. We are born like a crow is born, whitness life as a crow and die.

>>God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4: 24

That is the subjective and transcendent experience of Spirit, and the objective facts of objective worldly truth. <<

Charan used to say on many occasions, that he would not have any knowledge of the subject if it was not brought before him. Well Spence, I dear to say that humans would have no knowledge of God if the was not brought before them by significant persons in their cultural environment like parents. These parents and all others have their so called knowledge from hearsay … things they heard from what came to be known as mystics, prophets and the like.

These experiences are like dreams, personal. Granma used to say: "Little man, you see the head of a person, you cannot look inside". So we "know" what mystics tell us and for reasons psychologists etc have to find out we believe them on their "word".

Having these experiences as described by those who fill the shelves of my book closet must have been impressive no doubt and I guess I would have reacted as they did if it would happen to me. I also understand their urge to spread the word to the world but everybody is responsible for how he feeds himself.

So given the words of Charan … if they had not TAUGHT me about god I would have had no knowledge of it and that would be alright as all living beings experience live within the framework they are born. Or … to drink coffee I need not to know about the so called divine.

Many years ago whatever I was taught about these things evaporated like an fata morgana and has left me wondering how people ever came to believe in these things.



As for Gurinder, and each of us, we should all pay our bills and not make excuses. We should all be honest, especially about our shortcomings and difficulties, even Gurinder. - Spence

Plenty of people don't pay their bills.

Not paying bills is not a crime


You are also forgetting who the claim was against. They did not pay and claimed gurinder has their money but it may not even be true.
No loan agreement in place, so how is it a loan?

"The Master does not expect anyone to idolize Him. A boy, reading in primary classes, cannot judge the attainments of a B.A. or M.A. The Master only wants you to look upon Him as your elder brother or friend, to follow His directions, as those of a benefactor, and work hard to go into the higher planes within you. When you go there, you will see for yourself the position and dignity of the Master in those regions." (SG Letter 58)

This passage is often presented as Sawan saying that the guru is nothing special, just a guide, a friend, your elder brother. But read it closely. What Sawan is ultimately saying here is that ordinary people and unevolved satsangis have no clue as to the immeasurable greatness and majesty of the guru, as this is only revealed to those who reach the higher planes.

J,...

When I go to a bakery I do so because I need a bread.
But when people go to a so called master, what is that they want from him?
Masters what do they DO … DO !!!
Do they bake bread??

Thanks for that, j.

If I had my RS books still I could quote many similar passages from Charan.

It's pretty conclusive at this point that Gurinder plays the same sort of verbal sleight of hand games as his predecessors, and that he isn't just traveling the world to tell large crowds of people who often travel long distances to see him how he's just a normal guy.

When Sawan says he's a guide, he clarifies that it means in 'higher regions." Otherwise what would be the point of calling oneself a guide in this context? How is Gurinder supposedly guiding anyone if not "spiritually"? You can't know him. You can't talk to him. He doesn't write books. If it's not in some sort of "inner planes" then where is he claiming to guide people?

That people on this blog are still making this claim that he's an honest man who isn't claiming to be at least a superior being of some sort actually makes me sick, to be honest. He absolutely says it, though just like his teachers, he says it evasively.

Hi Osho

It's pretty clear your post has stirred up the RSSB pot again. Some interesting points of view, I think j’s comments are logical and ask honest questions.

I’m with Brian when he says ‘I'd find Dhillon to be more believable if he simply said that the traditional teachings are wrong.’
Part of me still feels miffed that (as several people say here) GSD continues to default to dogmatic teachings for the likes of initiations, satsangs etc - fundamentals of standard Sant Mat. Yet, according to how I read his interactions with you Osho the path is totally non-dual and all the so-called teachings that prop up/justify the organisation are actually ‘wrong’ as Brian says, or perhaps other words would be ‘incorrect’, ‘incomplete’ or ‘not the full story.’
I think harping on about where people are at in a so-called ‘heirarchy of awareness stages’, just keeps feeding the same bullshit that covers realisations about what truth is.
Of course one could say many RSSB followers are not interested in finding truth. That is, it’s religious aspects are sufficient to keep them feeling comfortable mentally, emotionally, socially, with some kind of ‘spiritualised future’ to action on and look forward to. But when it comes to the truth of things then my take is that if ‘Oneness’ is where it’s at:
There is essential ‘Oneness’ - OK - reality is non-dual, call it ‘Consciousness.’
If this is the case then there cannot be such a thing as a ‘separated soul.’
Meditation will/can lead to a giving-up/surrendering and a realisation that there is ‘no meditator/no thinker’ - Oneness, just consciousness.
Osho - ‘GSD: Forget about me. The previous gurus and the scriptures say that the creator will come and take care of his souls, but will we recognise him?’ -
Me - in truth no individual/soul will be there to do so, so recognising ‘him’ by ‘someone’ becomes moot.
If there is no such thing as a separated soul, then Karma does not happen to it.
Karma and reincarnation operate in duality - the ‘thinker’ creates and is affected by such things not the soul (whatever that is).
Osho - When I pointed out that no creator can come because in ONENESS there is no " coming or going" he [GSD] agreed and said that God is ever present so doesn't really come or go.
Me - truth is that there is only Oneness - how can something such as a soul or God come and go?
Osho - GSD - ‘Please, let’s be clear. I cannot erase your karmas, I cannot do anything for you’ -
Me - Can’t erase something that in truth does not exist.

I could be barking up the wrong tree, however the above interpretation makes much more sense to me. However, it pretty much broadsides all the standard belief systems/dogma put out there by RSSB. One could say that GSD is actually telling us to ditch the dogma and is spelling it out because he actually has realised this ‘oneness’. Or alternatively it’s just what he believes and can speak about it well.
Mystery …..

If Sant Mat, RSSB is about truth (as I see it) then wouldn’t it be good to dispense with all the dogma that no longer makes sense, (to me and others here), and say it as it really is, to the general audience. This is quite unlikely however, given that GSD says he is not GIHF/the PLM. Also, practically he is chained to the management of a big organisation with wealth and power. Speaking the truth of things both materially and spiritually could well result in the loss of his bentley.

PS do full stops go inside or outside quotation marks?

Best wishes


Robert wrote (referencing With the Three Masters): "KEY CLAIM I.
“....If the Guru himself has not reached Satlok, but his Guru is perfect or, like Swami Ji Maharaj, has come straight from Anami(the Nameless Region, the "highest" of all Regions),he will take his disciples up to the stage he has attained himself, and beyond that his Guru, or his Gurus Guru, or Swami Ji Maharaj Himself will take them. There should be no worry about this.”

This entire paragraph is in direct contradiction to GSD's comments made to Osho. These comments aren't even represented as allegorical. They are made as a statement of fact. So if GSD claims this is not true, then they are falsities. But to what end? To appease the masses? To lure them into believing something that is not evidently there? Or is it because GSD has himself not experienced this at all, and so now, as Faqir Chand stated, since he had not experienced these fantastical miracles of bi-location, then it can't be true? Is that what this is all about?

To say that people won't get the "Oneness"" thing, so I 'll make shit up and explain it later is beyond me. Those poor souls who at their death bed who feel so guilty that they couldn't experience anything at the time of their death is horrible. To brush it aside that, oh well, once you're dead, you'll be taken care of. Really? Really? That's a cop out if I've ever seen one.

I find that a bigger case of fraud here than anything else yet. At no point in the time from Soami Ji until the last 10 years, has the "Oneness" factor been mentioned in RSSB. Anyone else can try to explain it until you run out of breath, but it's a hoax played on the poor innocents who felt guilt on their death beds. Unacceptable.

Rant over.

@um
Yes they Bake bread and you are the flour

@ osho.

Yes it is crime. You don't pay council tax here in the uk = prison.

Loan not paid. Banks move the debt to a recovery agent who will come up with a suitable repayment plan based on what you can afford. Worse they take you to court or if you are unlucky - you get people built like me knocking on your door taking your possessions.

You see you do get punished.

Osho … next time when i shave my face looking in the mirror i will remember your words being flour. If I see flour i will let you know.

Osho when the fata morgana evaporates, nothing what was to be seen before, however attractive, will be gone and the bare dessert shows up.

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