Following is a report Osho Robbins sent to me of what happened after he used his phone to record five minutes of audio at a meeting of Radha Soami Satsang Beas in RSSB's Haynes Park center in England.
It's long, so you'll need to click on the continuation link to read the full tale. Here's some definitions of a few words Robbins uses in his report. "Satsang" is a spiritual talk. "Baba Ji" refers to the RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon. "Sevadar" is a volunteer. "Seva" means volunteer service.
What I find most interesting about this saga is how it illustrates the dangers of religious rigidity and dogmatism. The problem with Robbins using his phone to record part of a talk could have been handled smoothly in a few minutes if the Radha Soami Satsang Beas volunteers had acted like normal human beings rather than religious robots.
Instead, their fanaticism led them to believe that a rule against audio recordings was an edict from God, since the RSSB guru is believed by devotees to be God in Human Form. So RSSB volunteers (sevadars) often become irrationally fanatic about carrying out their assigned tasks.
As weird as this may sound to non-religious people, it's much as if Jesus returned to Earth and asked some devout Christians to serve him in certain ways. Is there any doubt that they'd obey with gusto, viewing this as service to God?
The downside, of course, is that since it's virtually certain God doesn't exist, bad things are done in the name of religion for purely human reasons. As you will read below, the RSSB volunteers Robbins encountered were willing to lie, cheat, and steal in the name of service to their guru.
This makes it wholly believable that other volunteer sevadars were willing to do even nastier stuff, as has been alleged by two people who claim that associates of the RSSB guru made death threats against them (see here and here). Thus I find what happened to Osho Robbins consistent with the attitude of a disturbingly large number of RSSB devotees.
Whatever I'm asked to do, if the order comes from the guru, or flows from the guru's directives, I'll do it, whether or not I have to act unethically or wrongly.
Read on...
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"Crime of the Century"
Osho Robbins caught red handed recording 5 minutes of satsang of the English speaker before the Q&A session. Charged with two offences: bringing phone into the tent and recording 5 minutes of audio. Case heard informally and further evidence fabricated to add another offence: threatening to kick a sevadar in the “nuts”.
Result: made to wait 3+ hours for his phone to be returned
Sentence: Unlimited Ban from ALL satsangs worldwide until further notice.
It’s an ordinary Friday morning at Haynes Park. It's the start of the National satsang programme. Osho Robbins is about to discover what happens when you “break the rules” at RSSB.
It started with a crime - that Osho Robbins committed. Let's call it "The Crime of the Century".
He recorded the english speaker before Baba Ji's satsang for 5 minutes.
Well technically it was two crimes:
1. Taking the phone in to the satsang hall (many do it - but it's against the rules)
2. Recording the English speaker for 5 minutes. Not sure why this was an issue as it was not even Baba Ji’s voice that was recorded
A quick perusal of You Tube will show that Baba Ji’s satsangs have not only been previously recorded by others but also been uploaded onto You Tube. So this was really a “non-offence” compared to the actions of those who uploaded all those audios of the satsangs.
Let's start at the beginning.
Osho Robbins arrived for the Friday satsang. He went to the back of the tent. Mobile phones are not allowed, but no big deal is made of the matter and there are no sevadars searching or even caring if anyone takes their phone in.
There must literally be hundreds of them in the tent. Not a single person asked Osho Robbins if he had a phone on his person.
Osho Robbins had his mobile phone with him, turned into airplane mode. The purpose was to be able to stay in contact with various people at the end of the satsang.
As it happens, the English speaker was saying some interesting things, so Osho Robbins decided to press the “record” button, not knowing that all hell was about to break loose.
So pause for a moment and use a little logic.
What is so horrendous about that? He decided to record it so he could listen back to it later. How exactly is that going to be a problem for anyone else on the planet?
Seriously, why would it be anyone’s concern? Did anyone get hurt? Is it a security risk? It's not even the voice of Baba Ji, but the speaker before the satsang, and it's for his own private listening after the satsang. By no stretch of the imagination can this be considered a major issue.
Yes, technically “the rules” were broken – but no harm was done to anyone. As you will see later, the sevadars will commit much bigger crimes as the events unfold. To name a few:
Lying, deceit, forcing another sevadar to lie, stealing the phone and illegally keeping hold of it for approximately 5 hours.
As Osho Robbins was recording, the phone fell on the floor and a sevadar pounced on him, "Ah - you have a mobile phone”. He asked Osho Robbins to step outside the tent while he went to get “backup".
So Osho Robbins stepped outside. What happened next was more like what you might see in a movie, than in a spiritual satsang. The sevadars seem to think it was a major crime to break the rules. Osho Robbins said "I will delete the files in front of you".
"No - give us the phone and WE will delete them, we have to make sure we delete them all."
Saying that, they snatched the phone from Osho Robbins and deleted the files. Not satisfied, they wanted to know if the files had been uploaded to the cloud.
"What cloud?" Osho Robbins asked, wondering why they are taking things so far over 5 minutes of audio recording that was not even of Baba Ji. They checked and decided it had not been uploaded, but kept hold of the phone, despite Osho Robbins asking for his phone back.
By then a more senior sevadar turned up and asked the classic question: "Do you know who I am?" Osho Robbins replied quite honestly, "I have no idea."
Obviously the "sevadar" had delusions of grandeur, the exact opposite of what seva should be about. And he obviously had a short-term memory problem, and kept forgetting his own name, hence the question, "Do YOU perhaps know who I am?"
Osho Robbins resisted the temptation to tell him "You are the ONE" or "Best to ask Baba Ji”.
The sevadar handed the phone to the senior sevadar. For clarity, we will call this senior sevadar, sevadar #2. Remember this is the one with delusions of grandeur who keeps forgetting “Who he is”.
Osho Robbins calmly asked for his phone back.
The ego-filled sevadar #2 refused to return the phone, saying it would go to the "IT Dept" to get checked. and be returned at the end of the satsang. This was ridiculous behaviour and also illegal. There was no audio of Baba Ji so why the big drama?
Osho Robbins explained that he was there with his cousin who also had a child with him as well as his wife. And since he did not want to waste their time, he (Osho Robbins) would leave Haynes Park immediately if that is what it would take to get his phone back.
For some reason the sevadar #2 would not agree to this reasonable request. That would have been the most reasonable way to resolve the matter.
"It's my personal property. I would like it back now please and if you want me to leave, I will leave Haynes Park immediately." said Osho Robbins, clarifying his position.
"You will get it back after the satsang." insisted the sevadar with delusions of grandeur.
"No - I want my phone back now, please" insisted Osho Robbins "and I will leave Haynes Park. It's my property and you have no legal basis to keep it or tamper with it”.
There was no raising of voices, no threats by anyone. However, Osho Robbins was simply firm in his request to be given his phone back, which was a very reasonable request, especially as he was offering to leave the site and wait outside Haynes Park.
"I do have the right to retain your phone" replied the sevadar, "You broke the rules and recorded the satsang and now your phone will be examined”.
It is indeed unfortunate that Osho Robbins had to resort to the legal position to ask for his legal rights to be upheld, but it seemed there was no other alternative. The sevadar #2 clearly had no respect for his legal rights.
The sevadar #2 put the phone in his pocket and now the lies began.
The senior sevadar now stated that he no longer had the phone on his person. "It's in your pocket" said Osho Robbins. The sevadar showed him his pocket and there were two phones there, neither of which were his.
"Well where's my phone?" asked Osho Robbins, now getting a little concerned, because the sevadar #2 now had his iPhone X worth over £1000 and it seemed to have disappeared, and he was sure he had come to satsang, not a magic show.
"It's been checked in and you can retrieve it at the end of the satsang" said the sevadar #2.
"But I just explained to you that I wish to leave Haynes Park right now"
"Well you can leave anytime you choose, but we will retain your phone and you can collect it another time" replied sevadar #2.
"I am not leaving without my phone, so show me exactly where it is so I don’t get delayed at the end of the satsang" suggested Osho Robbins.
Osho Robbins also insisted on a receipt for the phone, and the sevadar wrote his own name and the name of another senior sevadar on the hand made paper receipt. Osho Robbins asked him to sign it and took the receipt with him.
A different sevadar accompanied Osho Robbins to the "information and lost property point" where the phone had allegedly been checked in. However, once they arrived there, they said they did not have the phone.
"Well where is my phone then?" asked Osho Robbins, now getting even more concerned by this new turn of events.
"Well it could be checked into either of two places,” replied the helpful English lady at the information point. One of those places was right across from the information point.
"Please tell me where my phone is, or return it to me, as I wish to leave,” said Osho Robbins, as the situation was now getting out of hand.
"Maybe the senior sevadar has it in his pocket,” suggested another lady in the office.
This was no longer a joke and completely unacceptable. The sevadars were now acting illegally and could well steal his phone. There was now no other alternative than to involve the police if Osho Robbins wanted a safe recovery of his phone.
"Unless you can give me my phone back, I am going to call the police" said Osho Robbins.
Obviously, they could not return what they didn't have and they could not even tell Osho Robbins for sure exactly where his phone was. Osho Robbins asked to use a phone to call the police, but they refused to help.
"There is a public phone across the road,” said the English lady, pointing to a sign that said "Public Phone”.
"Can I have some change as I don't have any money with me?" asked Osho Robbins.
To her credit, the English lady gave him some loose change for the phone. Then someone pointed to a police vehicle already on site.
Osho Robbins returned the money and went over to the police van. The sevadar who had accompanied him suggested that he not involve the police.
"But my phone is missing and nobody is telling me where it is,” said Osho Robbins. "If you can retrieve my phone so I can leave Haynes Park in peace, please do so and I will not involve the police as I have no desire to escalate this matter. I simply want my phone back”.
The sevadar could not comply because it was in the hands of the sevadars higher up and the lower sevadars have no power. All they do is obey the orders of their superiors.
The sevadar left and Osho Robbins approached the police vehicle, still unable to believe that things had deteriorated this far in RSSB that he had to resort to police assistance in order to retrieve his own property. This was a far cry from the RSSB organisation he knew as a child.
Osho Robbins then explained the situation to the police.
The police said that it was illegal for them to hold onto his phone or tamper with it. They said that even they themselves had no powers to examine anyone's phone unless they could link it to an actual crime. Even then they may need a court order.
They explained to Osho Robbins that his phone had been technically "stolen" if they were keeping hold of it without his consent. Three officers accompanied Osho Robbins to the lost property and information point and took charge of the situation.
They insisted that the phone be returned immediately. The lady in the office said "He knows the rules and he broke them. There are notices everywhere stating that phones are not allowed”.
"That may be the case, but what you are doing is a crime. You are not allowed to hold his phone without his permission. It is theft to do so. If he has broken your rules, he is happy to leave the site, but he is entitled to have his phone returned before he leaves."
Another sevadar then said that the senior sevadar had it in his pocket and said he would go get him and be back in 10 minutes. The police said they would wait for 10 minutes. Twenty minutes later and he still had not come back.
Instead an older mature gentleman who seemed to be in charge explained to the police that the man (sevadar #2) had the phone in his pocket and the meeting was already in session and could not be disrupted.
He offered to take them there to show that it is "pindrop silence" and impractical to disturb the religious meeting. He said that he would personally assure the phone is returned at the end of the meeting (satsang).
I said, "I can guarantee that if there was an incident now, all of those people would get called on the two way radio devices and be out here within minutes." All these were simply excuses but the police didn't want to cause any conflict, especially as the sevadars were taking responsbility for the safe return of the phone immediately after the satsang.
Just then the sevadar who had originally taken the phone from Osho Robbins turned up. He insisted that his name be written on the receipt as the person responsible instead of the other two names.
"Since I first took the phone, I am the responsible person in case anything happens to the phone."
"What might happen to the phone?" asked Osho Robbins, surprised by this new turn of events.
"I don't know. I have just been sent to put my name down as the responsible person."
“Who sent you?” asked Osho Robbins. He referred to sevadar #2.
Osho Robbins explained to the police that he suspected his phone will likely go missing because that is the only reason to get this other sevadar to become the responsible person.
"The sevadars higher up are trying to get their name removed now because it has now become a police matter and they don't want their names involved." explained Osho Robbins to the police.
The police, however, had no idea how devious the sevadars were, as clearly there was no reason to change any names on the receipt if the phone was simply going to be handed back. In fact there was no reason the phone could not be returned immediately, if there was no plan to cause Osho Robbins further aggravation.
The sevadar who was now wanting to put his name on the receipt was desperate not to lose his seva and he kept saying "I don't want to lose my seva over this”.
Also he did not raise any other matter with the police, despite later making allegations of threats by Osho Robbins later on.
At that moment, the cousin's wife just happened to turn up with her son and witness the whole incident. The original sevadar told her also that "he doesn't want to lose his seva", and was almost in tears.
Osho Robbins explained to her exactly what had happened and that if he was not back at the car, he will be waiting there at the lost property and information point for his phone.
The police said that the phone should be returned immediately after the satsang and told Osho Robbins that if it is not returned, he should phone 101 and explain that his phone had been stolen and that they were witnesses to the whole incident.
At that point they had to leave as they were on traffic duty and the satsang was now over so vehicles would start to leave Haynes Park soon.
Osho Robbins told the police that he would be very surprised if they simply returned the phone after the satsang. They said, "If they don’t, then report it as theft, because they have promised to return it immediately after the meeting (satsang) and we have no reason to doubt them."
Well, Osho Robbins stood and waited for someone to come.
And waited and waited and waited. Finally at 12.50 the original sevadar who had taken the phone turned up and said that he would have his phone within 20 - 30 minutes.
Osho Robbins cousin had also arrived by this time and heard the sevadar say it would be no more than 30 minutes. But nobody came. Osho Robbins simply waited and waited.
Finally at around 2.30 a senior sevadar (I will call him sevadar #1) arrived in his car and called the original sevadar over. They chatted for about five minutes, then sevadar #1 drove off.
The sevadar walked towards Osho Robbins but still did not have the phone.
"We need to go to the office and the phone will be given to you there,” he informed Osho Robbins.
So Osho Robbins followed him to the office where sevadar #1 was waiting, together with sevadar #2 who was sitting on his left but further back.
Osho Robbins was going to ask sevadar #2 if he had figured out who he was yet, or if he still needed some more assistance on the matter, but common sense and caution prevailed instead.
Sevadar #1 was sitting in a chair and had just finished making a phone call. He called Osho Robbins over. Osho Robbins shook hands and sat down.
Just then Osho Robbin's cousin turned up and told sevadar #1 that he needs to speak to Osho Robbins briefly. Sevadar #1 graciously gave him permission.
After a brief discussion with his cousin regarding how much longer this is going to take, Osho Robbins returned.
"Why did you call the police?" asked sevadar #1 after asking a few preliminary questions.
Osho Robbins explained that he wanted his phone back and this was precisely why he called the police. He also explained that he had made it clear he would call the police if the phone was not returned immediately.
Sevadar #1 produced the phone and asked Osho Robbins to sign a statement to the effect that the phone had been returned in good order and undamaged, and also wanted the signed receipt back.
Osho Robbins complied with these formalities and was given the phone back.
Sevadar #1 then called the original sevadar over and asked him to check once again that the files have definitely been deleted. The sevadar started playing a different audio file on the phone.
“Why are you playing other files?“ asked Osho Robbins. “Because it says New Recording”as the name of the file” explained the sevadar.
Osho Robbins asked him to check the date as the recording was from a different date. Once satisfied that the files had been deleted, Sevadar #1 asked the sevadar who had originally taken the phone to explain exactly what had happened.
The sevadar explained briefly then he hesitated and said "I don't want to repeat the words he used”. Osho Robbins said "Go ahead and tell them what I said, as I said nothing to be ashamed of."
"He said he would kick me in the nuts”.
Osho Robbins was shocked that the sevadar would say that - as it was a complete lie and he had also spoken to him earlier and he was a pretty nice guy, but just afraid of losing his seva.
Osho Robbins denied saying those words and told sevadar #1 that it was totally out of character for him to say that.
Osho Robbins then realised exactly what had happened. Sevadar #1 had clearly ordered the original sevadar to make up that story, in order to give him ammunition for his next move. That was the purpose of the five minute meeting with the sevadar prior to this meeting. It all made perfect sense.
That also explained the sevadar’s hesitation, as he was deciding whether it's "right" to tell a lie in order to keep his seva.
So sevadar #1 said "Who do I believe? You, or the sevadar? I would rather believe the sevadar than you." "That's your call," said Osho Robbins, "but I am telling the truth." Of course sevadar #1 knew the truth anyway because he had told the other sevadar to lie.
“The thing is, this is not the first incident with you. There was an incident two or three years ago, so clearly, we are not going to get along”.
“So you can take your phone but I am banning you from satsang – all satsangs – local and national."
Osho Robbins really didn’t care at that point and took his phone and left Haynes Park.
Haynes Park
I feel it is more like a multinational business now.
India is a huge market for Baba business especially in North.
Indian immigrants overseas are another huge market.
Out of the huge number of Babas I wonder how many are genuine?
Sometimes I wonder if genuine ones really need all this paraphernalia?
Can you really transfer "divinity"- for lack of a better word - from one person to other? Like a company gets a new CEO?
Kabir, Buddha, Mahavir, Jesus, Mohammad and various saints never started a "gaddi." Nor did Ramana Maharishi or Sai Baba for that matter.
The Sikh Gurus did have it going for a while till the tenth Guru ended it or tried to.
I thought with increased education and easy access to real mystic's teachings the influence of Babas will decline. However I don't see that happening.
Posted by: Daljit | September 03, 2019 at 06:13 PM
Di you say
“However, the real dera/RSSB magic of 60s thru the early 90s has disappeared since the expansion of the organization into international centers.
Sad indeed! ”
I don’t see what’s sad about many more people being taught to live a spiritual life. Yes the sangat has grown from the 90s but this is a good thing for the people who never knew about spirituality to incorporate it into their lives.
Living in the western world I see a greater need for this than ever before on a daily basis. What’s sad to me is the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety and other mental issues. What’s also sad is the increase in substance abuse.
Di this is not sad it’s a good thing there is a growth in the number of people focusing on a spiritual life.
Redirect your focus.
Posted by: Anon | September 03, 2019 at 07:28 PM
Dear Osho Robbins u read in ur school tym some rules follow by as a student so plz don't blame to rssb sevadar . Thank u
Posted by: Deepak sharma | September 03, 2019 at 09:20 PM
Di, do you know the meant of sant?
Posted by: Excited soul | September 04, 2019 at 07:13 AM
Deepak,
When did I blame them?
I simply stated what happened
In fact I have specifically said I don’t attach any blame
Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 04, 2019 at 07:35 AM
@ Anon, the pain death of one child cannot be compensate by the joy ot the birth of another child.
Posted by: Um | September 04, 2019 at 09:32 AM
Actually what is needed is getting the context first of one's statement;
then whether it's - Is sant mat a dictatorship or the world burning itself if not for the presence of saints at all times.
Posted by: SP | September 04, 2019 at 11:14 AM
Correction
Not one's statement.
Should read someone's statement
Posted by: SP | September 04, 2019 at 11:16 AM
" Is sant mat a dictatorship or the world burning itself if not for the presence of saints at all times."
No either/or here. Sant mat could be a dictatorship that is preventing the world from burning. Dictatorships are usually pretty stable.
Or sant mat could be a democracy that is causing the world to burn.
Or there is absolutely no correlation between North Indian babas and anything else on earth. That's the choice I'm going with. The irrelevancy of post-bhakti,post-sikh north India babaism.
Posted by: Jesse | September 04, 2019 at 12:18 PM
@SP
SP writes
"Most aren't interested in your Gyan on whats to learn from the incident or how seva should be done.
You don't even have the guts to write to Dera (which is the appropriate thing to do) and all you put in here is this sham of whatever happened was as per HIS Hukum. If this be the case then shut up and accept it quietly!"
Are you a spokesman for "Most people"?
I am in the process of writing - so don't make assumptions.
"Humaki andar sab koi - bar hukam an koi"
Everything is in hukam - nothing is outside
Hukam does not mean some person of baba is sitting there
saying what is going to happen next.
Hukam means - "Whatever happens"
another way of saying "It's all happening as it should regardless of whether you or I like it. Even a thief is acting in hukam. It is essentially saying that the ONE is the only doer and you and I are simply puppets - not doers.
Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 05, 2019 at 12:00 AM
Anon, Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your advise to "refocus."
I should have included psychosocial illnesses in my second message. However, religion/religiosity/spirituality are not necessarily protective against these problems of humanity.
I wonder if Spence might have statistics on these problems among satsangi families or initiates. Personally, I don't believe anyone has done any studies in RS.
In my experience, these problems are multifaceted with religion being only one determinant. it can be protective for some and compounder for others.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4990512/
Anon again, I appreciate your advice to "refocus."
However, In my opinion RSSB and other religions should refocus/redirect as well to truly save humanity and the world as they propose in their missions.
Hazoor has a beautiful section on atmosphere of satsang in 'Spiritual Perspectives Vol III"
Excited soul,
Please educate me on understanding the meaning of "sant". It will be greatly appreciated.
I appreciate everyone here for allowing an honest dialogue on real/troubling issues that have come up recently. Thank you.
Di
Posted by: Di | September 05, 2019 at 09:56 AM
Osho
That's good then. Do keep us updated about the revert from Dera.
Now,
It's upto an individual who or what he wishes to be guided by
Old scriptures which you quote and Hukum (lack of free will)
Or what the current RSSB patron says and to quote him
"Kismet hame ek mukam par la kadi Karti hai. Phir ye ham pe hai ki hum sahi chune ya galat"
(Destiny brings us to a point. It's then upto us whether we choose what's right or wrong)
Or Man is maker of his own destiny
Posted by: SP | September 05, 2019 at 11:06 PM
@SP
The GSD teaches both.
At first I never understood why
He teaches both of these
(1) There is only the ONE and he is the only doer. We are puppets in his hand
No free will. No good / bad etc. Everything in hukam
(2). We are the doer. Do right actions. Be a good person. Meditate and get to sach khand.
He clarified to me why.
If you view yourself as the body and the mind, and feel you are the doer then, that is your reality and you have to start from there.
Then (1) is just a theory and if you did take it on board, you would be fake.
Only if (1) is your Realization is it worth considering. Otherwise it’s just an excuse to avoid the spiritual work.
If you DO what he says:
Meditate, be good etc
Drop the desire
Then a moment comes when the truth dawns on you. That dawning is the beginning of Realization.
It can never be an achievement, hence it’s beyond your effort.
Then you become helpless and see you are insignificant. Then you won’t ask
“Do you know who I am?”
So he is saying Start from where you are.
If you think you are the doer, then be the doer and do good deeds and meditate.
Until you realise the truth.
Only then engage with sant mat 2.0
In 2.0 all blame has gone from the roots.
How can you blame when only the ONE is the doer? The ONE means YOU.
If you blame them you are in Sant mat 1.0
But the point is Sant mat 2.0 is not a belief to replace 1.0
It is an inner realisation, a conviction, a knowing. Not subject to debate
Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 06, 2019 at 01:40 AM
And it’s perfectly okay not to agree with me, as I am not asking anyone to agree.
You can agree or disagree, neither is better or worse.
Same with my account of what happened on fri/sat.
I am simply stating what happened. I am not out to convince anyone. I am not out for revenge, I am not blaming anyone.
I don’t even think it was “wrong” in the ultimate sense.
However, RSSB may need to look at their internal procedures if they wish to avoid such incidents in the future. If they don’t wish to avoid them, then that too is okay.
I have simply reported what happened. I have no attachment to any outcome.
Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 06, 2019 at 01:47 AM
Hello Kunal:
I have been to Dera many times and have seen with my own eyes how the Sevadars get aggressive and abusive if you do not follow their commands. In 2018 I was sitting in the NRI section and one elderly gentleman who did not sit on a chair as demanded by the number 2 Sevadar was told very loudly to go sit on the floor way behind by the head Sevadar . Why you cannot accept the fact that Dera is run by the Maharaja Gurinder Singh Dihllion and nothing moves in that place without his consent.
People who have connections are allowed in to Dera from a different entrance door without any frisking with their mobile phone but people who have no connection are told to follow the rules and their luggage has to go thru an x-ray machine.
Why the set up is so unfair at a so called religious place ?. Please be respectful and answer my questions.
In Satsang we are told not to run after the money by GSD but he has been implicated to embezzle one billion dollars US.
Posted by: Rajinder Sharma | September 06, 2019 at 05:16 AM
@ osho . How would you have reacted if they had punched the one you love? Bet you would be attached to the outcome then. Otherwise your loved one would leave you.
Think before you write!!!!!!!! And FUCK the One. It's getting boring now
Posted by: Arjuna | September 06, 2019 at 10:03 AM
Osho,
Sant mat 2.0 - all about realising within, there is no I just the ONE blah blah. Well what's Santmat 1.0 ? And if there are Santmat 1.1 to 1.99 kindly throw some Gyan on each of these as well.
Thanks
Posted by: SP | September 07, 2019 at 05:49 AM
Rajinder
You say
(1) In Satsang we are told not to run after the money by GSD but he has been implicated to embezzle one billion dollars US.
SP: So GSD's name appears in the ongoing saga, but do you have a problem with the message conveyed? Tomorrow a drug addict tells you keep away from drugs. Would you disregard his message because it comes from a drug addict?
(2) I have been to Dera many times and have seen with my own eyes
Sp: Are you able to see through somebody else's eyes too?
(3) the elderly gent and the demanding number 2 Sevadhar.
SP:
Was this elderly fellow a NRI too? The sevadhar - Was sevadar demanding he sit on the chair or emphasizing the entitlement?
Sit on the floor way behind...... Where was this way behind? Was he telling him to go sit with the satsangis a km from the stage or did it mean in the NRI section but behind the row of chairs?
Was it a case that this gent wanted to sit on the floor but amongst the chairs. If yes, was he entitled to do so? Was it an appropriate thing to do? Thank God this fella didn't say I want to lie down on the ground.
Sitting in the NRI section, didn't you hear the daily announcement REQUESTING sangat to sit where ever the sevadars ask them to? Maybe you didn't. But now that you know about this, tell me is there any merit in making this announcement? Or Is it some whimsical announcement that this guy makes just because he loves his voice so much that he can't resist speaking into a mike to hear the amplified version.
4) Why you cannot accept the fact that Dera is run by the Maharaja Gurinder Singh Dihllion and nothing moves in that place without his consent.
SP: Well it's a widely accepted fact that GSD's writ runs. And being the patron why shouldn't it? Rest assured if it were otherwise, a sequence of regrettable consequences is what one would see.
4) People who have connections are allowed in to Dera from a different entrance door without any frisking with their mobile phone but people who have no connection are told to follow the rules and their luggage has to go thru an x-ray machine.Why the set up is so unfair at a so called religious place ?
SP: Different entrance into Dera or satsang shed? Do you know who these people are personally or it's just a conjecture that they are people with connections?
Also you talk about things not being fair ya..... So do what you can fix right. Write to Dera demanding that NRI's shouldn't be accorded any entitlements, no front enclosures with chairs and gaddis, no Hostel accommodation - all NRI's to be housed only in sheds and use public loos like many thousands others. No more access to snack bar and coffee shop where they can hog on pizzas etc and the mall as well. They like the other sangat should have to stand in mile long queues for even a cup of copy. No more NRI sessions with the Master. I actually already see the NRI section dismantled LOL.
My friend, if you do not know the challenges faced by Dera and the resulting extant rules, it's best to remain zipped up.
BTW are you a NRI or you managed to worm your way into the NRI section?
Posted by: SP | September 08, 2019 at 01:53 AM
@SP
Here is a link to the 2011 video I posted about sant mat 1.0 vs 2.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50
Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 08, 2019 at 01:53 PM
Hello SP
It is very clear to me that you do not see anything wrong with the set up in Dera where people who know somebody in the hierarchy are allowed in not from gate no. 5 but from another door. This is a fact that I know some people who are using this system to enter.
In RSSB philosophy you are told not to you use your intellect because intellect is supposed to be connected with mind and mind is part of KAL . May be that is why you cannot analyze the situation in
the Dera objectively.
Regarding your comment for my entry in to NRI section I can assure you that I did not worm my way in to it illegally
but I had a genuine NRI card.
Basically as I said before Dera is run like a kingdom of Gurinder Singh Dhillon and it also run like a cult. In a cult only one person runs the whole organization and the followers are told everyday not to question his authority. He is treated as God how can anybody question him.
Good luck to you for not seeing anything wrong with the management of RSSB
BEAS but in my opinion it is CULT.
Posted by: Rajinder Sharma | September 09, 2019 at 06:07 PM
@ Sp,
the incidents that are reported here just do happen.
No need to make it seen different.
As i often say:
Things are what they are,
but seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented, by interested parties.
These type of reported incidents have nothing to do with this or that particular organisation, they just happen in ANY organisation run by HUMANS.
Organisations, are run by spread of power, like electricity or water in a river, from high to low.
And each and every person that deals with power can mis-use that power knowingly or unknowingly.
I wonder if people who complain about these incidents do also complain about the same sort of incidents elsewhere.
Corruption, nepotism, reeling and dealing of favors etc etc, happens in all compagnies and organisations … staff having their own places to park their cars, their own tables to have diner, there is no end to the privileges each level has.
Dera is a religious multinational … what should things be different from any other compagny, political, cultural, social etc ??
Yes, some run their affairs more elegantly that others, and the reign of one king is different from the other but under the outer appearances it is just the same.
With the growth comes the evil … see what happened with the internet … it all started out as a benign initiative for students
Posted by: um | September 10, 2019 at 03:24 AM
Rajinder, you said
It is very clear to me that you do not see anything wrong with the set up in Dera where people who know somebody in the hierarchy are allowed in not from gate no. 5 but from another door. This is a fact that I know some people who are using this system to enter.
Yes there is nothing wrong with 'the set up'. I would have a problem if the set up starts getting rampantly abused - which is unlikely for there isn't much that goes unnoticed at Dera for long.
Next time take some time out to understand who and why some people (who you conjure up to be all with connections) pass through without the mandatory security checks and/or carry their hand phones into Dera. Also do find out the attendant responsibilities and applicable conditions then.
I could very well tell you for I happen to also be one of such people. But why give it to you on a platter.
Incidently, I don't even know where is Gate 5 despite my 3/4 visits each year. All I know is the gate I need to use and more importantly I know what entitles me to use this gate and IT CERTAINLY ISN'T ANY CONNECTIONS!!!!!!
I hope it doesn't become embarrassing for you - being presumptive about some one's analytical capabilities around prevalent situations and rules at Dera. You don't even know who SP is and what is his/her association with the Dera.
Anyways let me keep it manageable for you
Why don't you reply the few questions SP asked in connection with your cited observation whilst sitting in the NRI section. Then let us know your views on having a level playing field for NRIs - to reduce some unfairness in Dera.
No point whining about how Dera manages itself and whose writ runs therein. The Dera has decided how it operates and the collective cerebral power of the people who matter there will put many a corporations to shame.
Some like it. Some don't. Some simply accept it. Save yourself the trouble by not visiting Dera or take the trouble to suggest improvement whilst being within Dera i.e. doing seva in Dera and not as an opinion from a largely clueless observer.
Btw are you privy to the proceedings at the Exco and/or other meetings that occur regularly to state as a matter of fact that nobody questions or disagrees with GSD or that GSD doesn't ask for and seeks suggestions and recommendations on matters concerning the Dera???
You sure he doesn't have an advisor?
Posted by: slave_of_GSD | September 10, 2019 at 04:30 AM
Day 2 - Saturday - The day of the punch is about to be released.
Book your tickets now.
Like a new Bollywood movie.
Makes day 1 seem mild by comparison.
Day1 consisted of theft of the phone, deceit and fabrication of a lie to give grounds for a ban.
Day2 takes it from that point to
Assault (holding a person against their will).
Premeditated and unprovoked serious assault (punch to the face) seven onto one person.
Bullying.
Criminal damage (broke my glasses)
Serious threats: “I know where you live”
I too played my part in day 2. I don’t deny anything.
I told the guy to his face that he doesn’t have the authority to ban me. Which I still believe to be true as his so called ban was based on a fabricated lie and even forcing another sevadar to lie.
In my opinion, that is not seva, and there is no benefit from that seva.
Obviously a person who does seva needs to question why he is doing seva and if it is of any spiritual benefit at all.
Personally, If I was in that situation (as I was when I was a national UK speaker)
I would (and I did) hand in my resignation.
People who are serious about spiritual progress will not waste their valuable time on power games and ego trips.
Posted by: Osho Robbins | September 10, 2019 at 06:17 AM
Hello Slave
Since you do not know the Gate no. 5 may be I should remind you that this is the gate where ordinary public enters the Dera and deposits their mobiles.
As you are not aware of this gate It is clear to me that you belong to the special class and as such you do not suffer any physical searches and humiliation at gate no. 5.
When GSD is running RSSB Beas how can he involved in running Religare Health and be implicated by Indian courts for financial embezzlement to the tune of one Billion US dollars.
Is this not a conflict of interest even under ordinary circumstances?
But he is running a religious organization and he should follow at least what he preaches his disciples of honest living and not marking money by illegal means and enriching himself and his family.
Posted by: Rajinder Sharma ( RS) | September 10, 2019 at 06:44 AM
Hey Slave,
You so like me. You are slave of GSD and I am slave of LSD.
Good to know the entitlements that come with being a slave of GSD. Impressive. No security checks, phone inside Dera. Pretty cool. What else? House in Dera as well ? Cushy prominent seva in an aircon office? Sitting in front enclosure? Separate entrance to satsang shed just like the NRIs
No no I'm not jealous or complaining. Maybe you are of high utility to Dera and GSD for the moment.
Me - I am just another one who visits Dera time permitting. The good thing, my association with RSSB will not cause any embarrassment to our Dear NRI brother. On the contrary me on the path(supposedly) and not keeping my side of the deal must be embarrassing for GSD. Imagine he having to explain his choice of initiates. Hopefully you are not like me on this count 😂
But yes I have experienced what it's like being close to the top and bottom - so the first row and the absolutely last row. Strangely have been at peace in both situations. Go to Dera if it makes you happy. Certainly not to be on a fault finding mission. Finding faults that's the fucking easiest thing to do. Am sure it will send shivers down my spine (even when high on LSD) if I go through the list of faults tagged to our dear NRI brother.
Questions were just pointers. Wasn't expecting answers. Don't provoke our Dear NRI brother into responding. Let him enjoy whilst he can.
Posted by: SP | September 10, 2019 at 07:01 AM
Hey Slave,
My pointers were conveniently sidestepped. That's objective thinking.
Are you by any chance expecting responses to the set of even tougher questions you asked him?
Hey Rajinder,
Had your detached objective thinking gone grazing when you lapped up all the NRI privileges? Didn't it scream within you that you have no right to be treated differently from the rest of the sangat?
Also is fuzzy thinking in your case objective thinking - which made you state "Good luck to you for not seeing anything wrong with the management of RSSB"
It must be because only then could you read some where a comment from me which suggested/stated that the management of Dera is perfect and thus I don't see ANYTHING WRONG at Dera??
My friend, at least follow up your claims of being objective appropriately and for your next visit (if you ever are inclined) make sure you don't route your application through your country accomodation coordinator.
Posted by: SP | September 10, 2019 at 08:52 AM
I've never been to Dera, but I did go to India for bandara in 1985. In Delhi I was seated in the foreigner section about 8 rows from the dais. In front of us was a special section for Indians--VIP's or friends and family of Maharaj Ji's, I supposed. In front of them, a fierce looking sewadar faced us, arms crossed, standing guard below the dais A young Indian women in the special section caught my attention. Her sheer orange shawl flapped languidly in the breeze, and I liked the angle of her delicate shoulders. I began to wonder what she looked like from the front and impure thoughts formed. The sewadar caught me staring too long and gave me the most ferocious look! I thought he'd charge straight through the VIP's and drag me out by the neck!
Give me the last row any day. I had no business in the front. Too much pressure!
Posted by: anami | September 10, 2019 at 10:36 AM
dais.
(left out the ' . ')
Posted by: anami | September 10, 2019 at 10:41 AM
I read some of the story but it went on too long. I stopped at when Osho went to lost n found and the phone was not there. I'm not one to be on the side of sevadars. Osho sounds like a pr_ck with a fancy phone who thinks he can do whatever he wants. Why did he even go to HPark. He knows what sevadars are like. If he's so clever why can't he just remember what someone says. He has no right to record someone who believes no-one is recording them. But Osho now is the victim. Yes it was inconvenient for his phone to be held 5 hours but they mistrusted him for obvious reasons - they weren't about to believe him because he had already been deceptive. Sometimes I'm surprised at Brian's take on things. Brian! :).
(Oh and sometimes i do read comments. In another comment i said i had stopped. Ha! I try from time to time.)
Posted by: Saffron | September 11, 2019 at 01:28 PM
OK...i went back and finished Osho's story since Brian thought it was important enough to publish. ...and am likewise appalled (if it is true) that the sevadars were deceptive regarding changing names on receipt, and bullying the junior sevadar with losing his seva if he doesn't get the names changed, etc.
In their defensive (i do not LIKE defending sevadars' bad behaviour) it cannot be easy dealing with the public (we can probably all attest to that, people can be very undermining and aggressive), so a naive and accommodating sevadar team probably would not work. However this story saddens me from all angles. Love is b.s. in this realm. I wish for Osho and for the sevadars' and for me and your sakes things could be resolved with love. The only place there probably can be love is in our own hearts, and i take this lesson from this story: stay the heck away from people, from groups, from sevadars. Everyone sucks. Except the lady who gave him change for the public phone. She is representative of most of i hope. And Osho....maybe this was a blessing in disguise. At least you will not EVER be in their presence since you have been banned. I hope you are not upset by it. Just hang around people who bring the best out in you and vica versa.
Posted by: Saffron | September 11, 2019 at 01:58 PM
In addition to my prior comment (the second one) since my first comment did not make the grade to be published (point taken) i just want to clarify: Osho sounds like an entitled person with a too expensive phone who believes he can do whatever he wants. Recording someone who believes no-one is recording them is "incorrect". The fact that his recording phone fell out of his hand just as a sevadar was there to see it and seize it shows you a "coincidence". Doesn't it? .....
Now, most people would stay away from after Osho's unpleasant phone altercation including being banned from returning, but in the comments section Osho indicates he went back the next day despite having been banned. That tells us something about Osho. AND he says he got punched. (Who is surprised. Ok, I am, but still). Osho... Why do you go back to a place where you don't like what's going on for good reason, and where they don't want you around and told you as much. Dude find peace elsewhere.
Posted by: Saffron | September 11, 2019 at 02:23 PM
SP,
There are many more entitlements including Gaddis not just here but in all the inner regions as well. Become a slave like me I urge.
Re the questions, ofcourse these must be answered; yours and mine both. People can't shoot and scoot.
Posted by: slave_of_GSD | September 13, 2019 at 04:34 AM
Rajinder Saheb,
Radhasoami.
YOU: "Since you do not know the Gate no. 5 may be I should remind you that this is the gate where ordinary public enters the Dera and deposits their mobiles."
ME: thank you for sharing 'what' Gate 5 is for. If you had read carefully, you would have realised I actually said I don't know 'where' Gate no 5 is.
YOU: As you are not aware of this gate It is clear to me that you belong to the special class and as such you do not suffer any physical searches and humiliation at gate no. 5.
ME: distinguish between not being aware of and not knowing where Gate 5 is.
Chalo atleast this misplaced understanding did make you a little bit wiser. When I stated candidly that I belong to special class you missed it completely.
During my next Dera visit, I will make it a point to go to Gate 5 daily to enjoy the sangat's sufferings and humiliation meted out. I hope the distressed and humiliated sangat doesn't disappoint me with their serene, happy, smiling faces.
What do you think? Will this sangat also disappoint me just like the privileged yet grumbling NRIs do?
YOU: When GSD is running RSSB Beas how can he involved in running Religare Health and be implicated by Indian courts for financial embezzlement to the tune of one Billion US dollars.
Is this not a conflict of interest even under ordinary circumstances?
ME: There is no conflict of interest in running RSSB and Religare Health(if he did). If you believe there is one, kindly cite the extant Indian legislations. Also anything that indicates GSD was running the companies?
YOU: But he is running a religious organization and he should follow at least what he preaches his disciples of honest living and not marking money by illegal means
ME: why should he? Does he ever say he follows what he preaches on these matters? Your problem if you start expecting this of him. He is there to simply tell you what's good for you and what's not and what needs to be done for God realisation. This whole website seems to exist only because of what a few individuals think he should be doing and not doing. As if they themselves are an epitome of obedience. People can't even refrain from carrying their phones into the satsang shed.
Posted by: Slave_of_GSD | September 13, 2019 at 05:03 AM
Rajinder Sharma wants to enjoy all the benefits of dera and then keep criticising the holy place. Jis thaali mein khata hai usee mein moot ta hai, namak haraam saala lol
Posted by: Wierdo like Osho | September 13, 2019 at 03:16 PM
I have been following your feeds about rssb in India and UK. The story of Osho robbins been beaten (i would say, i would believe it). the money things happening in India about rssb, i would say, I do not know any thing. But many different things happen here in uk.
Many girls of the higher up sewadar are struggling with the way they are treated. Many old men in haynes park do many silly things with girls which have gone un reported to any one in the outside world. I know you will not believe me. But there are many old age volunteers who do funny things with young women and girls. But most importantly if you do not believe. You will not even understand how girls are suppressed by their own family. They cannot marry on their own. And the ones who do, then they have to face the heat. Like around 3 years ago, A daughter (of the same higher up Sewadar/volunteer, who had beaten up Osho robbins. (I would say that higher up sewadar's, brother's daughter) She was not allowed to get married to a guy of her choice, and was forced to marry the guy whom the guru had selected for her to get married to. Things got out of hand big fight ensued and the girls parents were even arrested by police. After a lot of problems the guy and girl are now married happily. But only after being thrown out of sewa and other regular activities of haynes park. They are a good friend, i know very well what they have gone through. Like every time when they came to haynes every women would fight and shower abuses. Only to make that higher up sewadar happy. so that they will be rewarded by good fame in haynes and higher posts. Funny it is, but true.
but all this, i know no one will believe, but that same Higher up sewadars family girls are the ones who know the truth. The guy and girl now live in Leicester.
yes rssb has got a few higher up sewadar who do things as it pleases them. So if things happening in India about the money trail who knows how far who all is involved. How far such higher up sewadars and family are involved. But the police and courts are very close to cracking. Hope one day the Local UK haynes park will be looked into and Sick mentality of forced marriage of girls will be stopped and such daughters will be free.
i did not knew how to create a new headlined post, so wrote it here.
Posted by: S Singh | December 19, 2019 at 01:24 PM
Mr singh
I saw them look at girls with folded hands. When you ain't got steak at home you look for chips outside . Meaning if your woman at home is not attractive they try it outside. Half of them blokes dont have a fuck in them. Lol
Men in pubs do it. That place haynes needs to be shut down.
Posted by: Arjuna | December 19, 2019 at 03:21 PM
Wow. This raises soooo many questions.
First of all, GSD advises who people should marry????
Secondly, why do we even need these centers? I agree with Arjuna. That place needs to be shut down.
Posted by: Sonia | December 19, 2019 at 06:17 PM