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August 31, 2019

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I feel it is more like a multinational business now.
India is a huge market for Baba business especially in North.
Indian immigrants overseas are another huge market.

Out of the huge number of Babas I wonder how many are genuine?
Sometimes I wonder if genuine ones really need all this paraphernalia?

Can you really transfer "divinity"- for lack of a better word - from one person to other? Like a company gets a new CEO?

Kabir, Buddha, Mahavir, Jesus, Mohammad and various saints never started a "gaddi." Nor did Ramana Maharishi or Sai Baba for that matter.
The Sikh Gurus did have it going for a while till the tenth Guru ended it or tried to.

I thought with increased education and easy access to real mystic's teachings the influence of Babas will decline. However I don't see that happening.

Di you say
“However, the real dera/RSSB magic of 60s thru the early 90s has disappeared since the expansion of the organization into international centers.

Sad indeed! ”

I don’t see what’s sad about many more people being taught to live a spiritual life. Yes the sangat has grown from the 90s but this is a good thing for the people who never knew about spirituality to incorporate it into their lives.
Living in the western world I see a greater need for this than ever before on a daily basis. What’s sad to me is the increase in suicide, depression, anxiety and other mental issues. What’s also sad is the increase in substance abuse.
Di this is not sad it’s a good thing there is a growth in the number of people focusing on a spiritual life.
Redirect your focus.

Dear Osho Robbins u read in ur school tym some rules follow by as a student so plz don't blame to rssb sevadar . Thank u

Di, do you know the meant of sant?

Deepak,
When did I blame them?
I simply stated what happened
In fact I have specifically said I don’t attach any blame

@ Anon, the pain death of one child cannot be compensate by the joy ot the birth of another child.

Actually what is needed is getting the context first of one's statement;

then whether it's - Is sant mat a dictatorship or the world burning itself if not for the presence of saints at all times.

Correction

Not one's statement.

Should read someone's statement

" Is sant mat a dictatorship or the world burning itself if not for the presence of saints at all times."

No either/or here. Sant mat could be a dictatorship that is preventing the world from burning. Dictatorships are usually pretty stable.

Or sant mat could be a democracy that is causing the world to burn.

Or there is absolutely no correlation between North Indian babas and anything else on earth. That's the choice I'm going with. The irrelevancy of post-bhakti,post-sikh north India babaism.

@SP
SP writes
"Most aren't interested in your Gyan on whats to learn from the incident or how seva should be done.

You don't even have the guts to write to Dera (which is the appropriate thing to do) and all you put in here is this sham of whatever happened was as per HIS Hukum. If this be the case then shut up and accept it quietly!"

Are you a spokesman for "Most people"?

I am in the process of writing - so don't make assumptions.

"Humaki andar sab koi - bar hukam an koi"
Everything is in hukam - nothing is outside

Hukam does not mean some person of baba is sitting there
saying what is going to happen next.

Hukam means - "Whatever happens"

another way of saying "It's all happening as it should regardless of whether you or I like it. Even a thief is acting in hukam. It is essentially saying that the ONE is the only doer and you and I are simply puppets - not doers.

Anon, Thank you for your comment. I appreciate your advise to "refocus."

I should have included psychosocial illnesses in my second message. However, religion/religiosity/spirituality are not necessarily protective against these problems of humanity.
I wonder if Spence might have statistics on these problems among satsangi families or initiates. Personally, I don't believe anyone has done any studies in RS.
In my experience, these problems are multifaceted with religion being only one determinant. it can be protective for some and compounder for others.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4990512/

Anon again, I appreciate your advice to "refocus."
However, In my opinion RSSB and other religions should refocus/redirect as well to truly save humanity and the world as they propose in their missions.
Hazoor has a beautiful section on atmosphere of satsang in 'Spiritual Perspectives Vol III"

Excited soul,
Please educate me on understanding the meaning of "sant". It will be greatly appreciated.

I appreciate everyone here for allowing an honest dialogue on real/troubling issues that have come up recently. Thank you.
Di

Osho

That's good then. Do keep us updated about the revert from Dera.

Now,

It's upto an individual who or what he wishes to be guided by

Old scriptures which you quote and Hukum (lack of free will)

Or what the current RSSB patron says and to quote him

"Kismet hame ek mukam par la kadi Karti hai. Phir ye ham pe hai ki hum sahi chune ya galat"
(Destiny brings us to a point. It's then upto us whether we choose what's right or wrong)

Or Man is maker of his own destiny

@SP
The GSD teaches both.
At first I never understood why

He teaches both of these
(1) There is only the ONE and he is the only doer. We are puppets in his hand
No free will. No good / bad etc. Everything in hukam

(2). We are the doer. Do right actions. Be a good person. Meditate and get to sach khand.

He clarified to me why.

If you view yourself as the body and the mind, and feel you are the doer then, that is your reality and you have to start from there.

Then (1) is just a theory and if you did take it on board, you would be fake.
Only if (1) is your Realization is it worth considering. Otherwise it’s just an excuse to avoid the spiritual work.

If you DO what he says:
Meditate, be good etc
Drop the desire

Then a moment comes when the truth dawns on you. That dawning is the beginning of Realization.

It can never be an achievement, hence it’s beyond your effort.

Then you become helpless and see you are insignificant. Then you won’t ask
“Do you know who I am?”

So he is saying Start from where you are.

If you think you are the doer, then be the doer and do good deeds and meditate.

Until you realise the truth.

Only then engage with sant mat 2.0

In 2.0 all blame has gone from the roots.

How can you blame when only the ONE is the doer? The ONE means YOU.

If you blame them you are in Sant mat 1.0

But the point is Sant mat 2.0 is not a belief to replace 1.0

It is an inner realisation, a conviction, a knowing. Not subject to debate

And it’s perfectly okay not to agree with me, as I am not asking anyone to agree.

You can agree or disagree, neither is better or worse.

Same with my account of what happened on fri/sat.

I am simply stating what happened. I am not out to convince anyone. I am not out for revenge, I am not blaming anyone.

I don’t even think it was “wrong” in the ultimate sense.

However, RSSB may need to look at their internal procedures if they wish to avoid such incidents in the future. If they don’t wish to avoid them, then that too is okay.
I have simply reported what happened. I have no attachment to any outcome.

Hello Kunal:
I have been to Dera many times and have seen with my own eyes how the Sevadars get aggressive and abusive if you do not follow their commands. In 2018 I was sitting in the NRI section and one elderly gentleman who did not sit on a chair as demanded by the number 2 Sevadar was told very loudly to go sit on the floor way behind by the head Sevadar . Why you cannot accept the fact that Dera is run by the Maharaja Gurinder Singh Dihllion and nothing moves in that place without his consent.
People who have connections are allowed in to Dera from a different entrance door without any frisking with their mobile phone but people who have no connection are told to follow the rules and their luggage has to go thru an x-ray machine.
Why the set up is so unfair at a so called religious place ?. Please be respectful and answer my questions.

In Satsang we are told not to run after the money by GSD but he has been implicated to embezzle one billion dollars US.

@ osho . How would you have reacted if they had punched the one you love? Bet you would be attached to the outcome then. Otherwise your loved one would leave you.

Think before you write!!!!!!!! And FUCK the One. It's getting boring now

Osho,
Sant mat 2.0 - all about realising within, there is no I just the ONE blah blah. Well what's Santmat 1.0 ? And if there are Santmat 1.1 to 1.99 kindly throw some Gyan on each of these as well.

Thanks

Rajinder
You say

(1) In Satsang we are told not to run after the money by GSD but he has been implicated to embezzle one billion dollars US.

SP: So GSD's name appears in the ongoing saga, but do you have a problem with the message conveyed? Tomorrow a drug addict tells you keep away from drugs. Would you disregard his message because it comes from a drug addict?

(2) I have been to Dera many times and have seen with my own eyes

Sp: Are you able to see through somebody else's eyes too?

(3) the elderly gent and the demanding number 2 Sevadhar.

SP:

Was this elderly fellow a NRI too? The sevadhar - Was sevadar demanding he sit on the chair or emphasizing the entitlement?

Sit on the floor way behind...... Where was this way behind? Was he telling him to go sit with the satsangis a km from the stage or did it mean in the NRI section but behind the row of chairs?

Was it a case that this gent wanted to sit on the floor but amongst the chairs. If yes, was he entitled to do so? Was it an appropriate thing to do? Thank God this fella didn't say I want to lie down on the ground.

Sitting in the NRI section, didn't you hear the daily announcement REQUESTING sangat to sit where ever the sevadars ask them to? Maybe you didn't. But now that you know about this, tell me is there any merit in making this announcement? Or Is it some whimsical announcement that this guy makes just because he loves his voice so much that he can't resist speaking into a mike to hear the amplified version.


4) Why you cannot accept the fact that Dera is run by the Maharaja Gurinder Singh Dihllion and nothing moves in that place without his consent.

SP: Well it's a widely accepted fact that GSD's writ runs. And being the patron why shouldn't it? Rest assured if it were otherwise, a sequence of regrettable consequences is what one would see.

4) People who have connections are allowed in to Dera from a different entrance door without any frisking with their mobile phone but people who have no connection are told to follow the rules and their luggage has to go thru an x-ray machine.Why the set up is so unfair at a so called religious place ?

SP: Different entrance into Dera or satsang shed? Do you know who these people are personally or it's just a conjecture that they are people with connections?

Also you talk about things not being fair ya..... So do what you can fix right. Write to Dera demanding that NRI's shouldn't be accorded any entitlements, no front enclosures with chairs and gaddis, no Hostel accommodation - all NRI's to be housed only in sheds and use public loos like many thousands others. No more access to snack bar and coffee shop where they can hog on pizzas etc and the mall as well. They like the other sangat should have to stand in mile long queues for even a cup of copy. No more NRI sessions with the Master. I actually already see the NRI section dismantled LOL.

My friend, if you do not know the challenges faced by Dera and the resulting extant rules, it's best to remain zipped up.


BTW are you a NRI or you managed to worm your way into the NRI section?

@SP

Here is a link to the 2011 video I posted about sant mat 1.0 vs 2.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm2eweEr_50

Hello SP
It is very clear to me that you do not see anything wrong with the set up in Dera where people who know somebody in the hierarchy are allowed in not from gate no. 5 but from another door. This is a fact that I know some people who are using this system to enter.
In RSSB philosophy you are told not to you use your intellect because intellect is supposed to be connected with mind and mind is part of KAL . May be that is why you cannot analyze the situation in
the Dera objectively.
Regarding your comment for my entry in to NRI section I can assure you that I did not worm my way in to it illegally
but I had a genuine NRI card.
Basically as I said before Dera is run like a kingdom of Gurinder Singh Dhillon and it also run like a cult. In a cult only one person runs the whole organization and the followers are told everyday not to question his authority. He is treated as God how can anybody question him.
Good luck to you for not seeing anything wrong with the management of RSSB
BEAS but in my opinion it is CULT.

@ Sp,
the incidents that are reported here just do happen.
No need to make it seen different.

As i often say:
Things are what they are,
but seldom what they look like
let alone how they are presented, by interested parties.

These type of reported incidents have nothing to do with this or that particular organisation, they just happen in ANY organisation run by HUMANS.

Organisations, are run by spread of power, like electricity or water in a river, from high to low.
And each and every person that deals with power can mis-use that power knowingly or unknowingly.

I wonder if people who complain about these incidents do also complain about the same sort of incidents elsewhere.

Corruption, nepotism, reeling and dealing of favors etc etc, happens in all compagnies and organisations … staff having their own places to park their cars, their own tables to have diner, there is no end to the privileges each level has.

Dera is a religious multinational … what should things be different from any other compagny, political, cultural, social etc ??

Yes, some run their affairs more elegantly that others, and the reign of one king is different from the other but under the outer appearances it is just the same.

With the growth comes the evil … see what happened with the internet … it all started out as a benign initiative for students

Rajinder, you said

It is very clear to me that you do not see anything wrong with the set up in Dera where people who know somebody in the hierarchy are allowed in not from gate no. 5 but from another door. This is a fact that I know some people who are using this system to enter.

Yes there is nothing wrong with 'the set up'. I would have a problem if the set up starts getting rampantly abused - which is unlikely for there isn't much that goes unnoticed at Dera for long.

Next time take some time out to understand who and why some people (who you conjure up to be all with connections) pass through without the mandatory security checks and/or carry their hand phones into Dera. Also do find out the attendant responsibilities and applicable conditions then.

I could very well tell you for I happen to also be one of such people. But why give it to you on a platter.

Incidently, I don't even know where is Gate 5 despite my 3/4 visits each year. All I know is the gate I need to use and more importantly I know what entitles me to use this gate and IT CERTAINLY ISN'T ANY CONNECTIONS!!!!!!

I hope it doesn't become embarrassing for you - being presumptive about some one's analytical capabilities around prevalent situations and rules at Dera. You don't even know who SP is and what is his/her association with the Dera.

Anyways let me keep it manageable for you

Why don't you reply the few questions SP asked in connection with your cited observation whilst sitting in the NRI section. Then let us know your views on having a level playing field for NRIs - to reduce some unfairness in Dera.

No point whining about how Dera manages itself and whose writ runs therein. The Dera has decided how it operates and the collective cerebral power of the people who matter there will put many a corporations to shame.

Some like it. Some don't. Some simply accept it. Save yourself the trouble by not visiting Dera or take the trouble to suggest improvement whilst being within Dera i.e. doing seva in Dera and not as an opinion from a largely clueless observer.

Btw are you privy to the proceedings at the Exco and/or other meetings that occur regularly to state as a matter of fact that nobody questions or disagrees with GSD or that GSD doesn't ask for and seeks suggestions and recommendations on matters concerning the Dera???

You sure he doesn't have an advisor?


Day 2 - Saturday - The day of the punch is about to be released.
Book your tickets now.
Like a new Bollywood movie.

Makes day 1 seem mild by comparison.
Day1 consisted of theft of the phone, deceit and fabrication of a lie to give grounds for a ban.

Day2 takes it from that point to
Assault (holding a person against their will).
Premeditated and unprovoked serious assault (punch to the face) seven onto one person.
Bullying.
Criminal damage (broke my glasses)
Serious threats: “I know where you live”

I too played my part in day 2. I don’t deny anything.
I told the guy to his face that he doesn’t have the authority to ban me. Which I still believe to be true as his so called ban was based on a fabricated lie and even forcing another sevadar to lie.

In my opinion, that is not seva, and there is no benefit from that seva.

Obviously a person who does seva needs to question why he is doing seva and if it is of any spiritual benefit at all.

Personally, If I was in that situation (as I was when I was a national UK speaker)
I would (and I did) hand in my resignation.

People who are serious about spiritual progress will not waste their valuable time on power games and ego trips.


Hello Slave
Since you do not know the Gate no. 5 may be I should remind you that this is the gate where ordinary public enters the Dera and deposits their mobiles.
As you are not aware of this gate It is clear to me that you belong to the special class and as such you do not suffer any physical searches and humiliation at gate no. 5.
When GSD is running RSSB Beas how can he involved in running Religare Health and be implicated by Indian courts for financial embezzlement to the tune of one Billion US dollars.
Is this not a conflict of interest even under ordinary circumstances?
But he is running a religious organization and he should follow at least what he preaches his disciples of honest living and not marking money by illegal means and enriching himself and his family.

Hey Slave,

You so like me. You are slave of GSD and I am slave of LSD.

Good to know the entitlements that come with being a slave of GSD. Impressive. No security checks, phone inside Dera. Pretty cool. What else? House in Dera as well ? Cushy prominent seva in an aircon office? Sitting in front enclosure? Separate entrance to satsang shed just like the NRIs

No no I'm not jealous or complaining. Maybe you are of high utility to Dera and GSD for the moment.

Me - I am just another one who visits Dera time permitting. The good thing, my association with RSSB will not cause any embarrassment to our Dear NRI brother. On the contrary me on the path(supposedly) and not keeping my side of the deal must be embarrassing for GSD. Imagine he having to explain his choice of initiates. Hopefully you are not like me on this count 😂

But yes I have experienced what it's like being close to the top and bottom - so the first row and the absolutely last row. Strangely have been at peace in both situations. Go to Dera if it makes you happy. Certainly not to be on a fault finding mission. Finding faults that's the fucking easiest thing to do. Am sure it will send shivers down my spine (even when high on LSD) if I go through the list of faults tagged to our dear NRI brother.

Questions were just pointers. Wasn't expecting answers. Don't provoke our Dear NRI brother into responding. Let him enjoy whilst he can.

Hey Slave,

My pointers were conveniently sidestepped. That's objective thinking.

Are you by any chance expecting responses to the set of even tougher questions you asked him?

Hey Rajinder,

Had your detached objective thinking gone grazing when you lapped up all the NRI privileges? Didn't it scream within you that you have no right to be treated differently from the rest of the sangat?

Also is fuzzy thinking in your case objective thinking - which made you state "Good luck to you for not seeing anything wrong with the management of RSSB"

It must be because only then could you read some where a comment from me which suggested/stated that the management of Dera is perfect and thus I don't see ANYTHING WRONG at Dera??

My friend, at least follow up your claims of being objective appropriately and for your next visit (if you ever are inclined) make sure you don't route your application through your country accomodation coordinator.


I've never been to Dera, but I did go to India for bandara in 1985. In Delhi I was seated in the foreigner section about 8 rows from the dais. In front of us was a special section for Indians--VIP's or friends and family of Maharaj Ji's, I supposed. In front of them, a fierce looking sewadar faced us, arms crossed, standing guard below the dais A young Indian women in the special section caught my attention. Her sheer orange shawl flapped languidly in the breeze, and I liked the angle of her delicate shoulders. I began to wonder what she looked like from the front and impure thoughts formed. The sewadar caught me staring too long and gave me the most ferocious look! I thought he'd charge straight through the VIP's and drag me out by the neck!

Give me the last row any day. I had no business in the front. Too much pressure!

dais.
(left out the ' . ')

I read some of the story but it went on too long. I stopped at when Osho went to lost n found and the phone was not there. I'm not one to be on the side of sevadars. Osho sounds like a pr_ck with a fancy phone who thinks he can do whatever he wants. Why did he even go to HPark. He knows what sevadars are like. If he's so clever why can't he just remember what someone says. He has no right to record someone who believes no-one is recording them. But Osho now is the victim. Yes it was inconvenient for his phone to be held 5 hours but they mistrusted him for obvious reasons - they weren't about to believe him because he had already been deceptive. Sometimes I'm surprised at Brian's take on things. Brian! :).
(Oh and sometimes i do read comments. In another comment i said i had stopped. Ha! I try from time to time.)

OK...i went back and finished Osho's story since Brian thought it was important enough to publish. ...and am likewise appalled (if it is true) that the sevadars were deceptive regarding changing names on receipt, and bullying the junior sevadar with losing his seva if he doesn't get the names changed, etc.
In their defensive (i do not LIKE defending sevadars' bad behaviour) it cannot be easy dealing with the public (we can probably all attest to that, people can be very undermining and aggressive), so a naive and accommodating sevadar team probably would not work. However this story saddens me from all angles. Love is b.s. in this realm. I wish for Osho and for the sevadars' and for me and your sakes things could be resolved with love. The only place there probably can be love is in our own hearts, and i take this lesson from this story: stay the heck away from people, from groups, from sevadars. Everyone sucks. Except the lady who gave him change for the public phone. She is representative of most of i hope. And Osho....maybe this was a blessing in disguise. At least you will not EVER be in their presence since you have been banned. I hope you are not upset by it. Just hang around people who bring the best out in you and vica versa.

In addition to my prior comment (the second one) since my first comment did not make the grade to be published (point taken) i just want to clarify: Osho sounds like an entitled person with a too expensive phone who believes he can do whatever he wants. Recording someone who believes no-one is recording them is "incorrect". The fact that his recording phone fell out of his hand just as a sevadar was there to see it and seize it shows you a "coincidence". Doesn't it? .....

Now, most people would stay away from after Osho's unpleasant phone altercation including being banned from returning, but in the comments section Osho indicates he went back the next day despite having been banned. That tells us something about Osho. AND he says he got punched. (Who is surprised. Ok, I am, but still). Osho... Why do you go back to a place where you don't like what's going on for good reason, and where they don't want you around and told you as much. Dude find peace elsewhere.

SP,

There are many more entitlements including Gaddis not just here but in all the inner regions as well. Become a slave like me I urge.

Re the questions, ofcourse these must be answered; yours and mine both. People can't shoot and scoot.

Rajinder Saheb,

Radhasoami.

YOU: "Since you do not know the Gate no. 5 may be I should remind you that this is the gate where ordinary public enters the Dera and deposits their mobiles."

ME: thank you for sharing 'what' Gate 5 is for. If you had read carefully, you would have realised I actually said I don't know 'where' Gate no 5 is.

YOU: As you are not aware of this gate It is clear to me that you belong to the special class and as such you do not suffer any physical searches and humiliation at gate no. 5.

ME: distinguish between not being aware of and not knowing where Gate 5 is.

Chalo atleast this misplaced understanding did make you a little bit wiser. When I stated candidly that I belong to special class you missed it completely.

During my next Dera visit, I will make it a point to go to Gate 5 daily to enjoy the sangat's sufferings and humiliation meted out. I hope the distressed and humiliated sangat doesn't disappoint me with their serene, happy, smiling faces.

What do you think? Will this sangat also disappoint me just like the privileged yet grumbling NRIs do?

YOU: When GSD is running RSSB Beas how can he involved in running Religare Health and be implicated by Indian courts for financial embezzlement to the tune of one Billion US dollars.
Is this not a conflict of interest even under ordinary circumstances?

ME: There is no conflict of interest in running RSSB and Religare Health(if he did). If you believe there is one, kindly cite the extant Indian legislations. Also anything that indicates GSD was running the companies?

YOU: But he is running a religious organization and he should follow at least what he preaches his disciples of honest living and not marking money by illegal means

ME: why should he? Does he ever say he follows what he preaches on these matters? Your problem if you start expecting this of him. He is there to simply tell you what's good for you and what's not and what needs to be done for God realisation. This whole website seems to exist only because of what a few individuals think he should be doing and not doing. As if they themselves are an epitome of obedience. People can't even refrain from carrying their phones into the satsang shed.

Rajinder Sharma wants to enjoy all the benefits of dera and then keep criticising the holy place. Jis thaali mein khata hai usee mein moot ta hai, namak haraam saala lol

I have been following your feeds about rssb in India and UK. The story of Osho robbins been beaten (i would say, i would believe it). the money things happening in India about rssb, i would say, I do not know any thing. But many different things happen here in uk.

Many girls of the higher up sewadar are struggling with the way they are treated. Many old men in haynes park do many silly things with girls which have gone un reported to any one in the outside world. I know you will not believe me. But there are many old age volunteers who do funny things with young women and girls. But most importantly if you do not believe. You will not even understand how girls are suppressed by their own family. They cannot marry on their own. And the ones who do, then they have to face the heat. Like around 3 years ago, A daughter (of the same higher up Sewadar/volunteer, who had beaten up Osho robbins. (I would say that higher up sewadar's, brother's daughter) She was not allowed to get married to a guy of her choice, and was forced to marry the guy whom the guru had selected for her to get married to. Things got out of hand big fight ensued and the girls parents were even arrested by police. After a lot of problems the guy and girl are now married happily. But only after being thrown out of sewa and other regular activities of haynes park. They are a good friend, i know very well what they have gone through. Like every time when they came to haynes every women would fight and shower abuses. Only to make that higher up sewadar happy. so that they will be rewarded by good fame in haynes and higher posts. Funny it is, but true.
but all this, i know no one will believe, but that same Higher up sewadars family girls are the ones who know the truth. The guy and girl now live in Leicester.
yes rssb has got a few higher up sewadar who do things as it pleases them. So if things happening in India about the money trail who knows how far who all is involved. How far such higher up sewadars and family are involved. But the police and courts are very close to cracking. Hope one day the Local UK haynes park will be looked into and Sick mentality of forced marriage of girls will be stopped and such daughters will be free.

i did not knew how to create a new headlined post, so wrote it here.

Mr singh

I saw them look at girls with folded hands. When you ain't got steak at home you look for chips outside . Meaning if your woman at home is not attractive they try it outside. Half of them blokes dont have a fuck in them. Lol

Men in pubs do it. That place haynes needs to be shut down.

Wow. This raises soooo many questions.

First of all, GSD advises who people should marry????

Secondly, why do we even need these centers? I agree with Arjuna. That place needs to be shut down.

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