If God is beyond thought and language, then shut up if you're religious

I'd like to rephrase in a more blunt fashion what I quoted Donald Hoffman as saying in yesterday's blog post. Here's Hoffman.

If a system of thought, religious or otherwise, offers a claim that it wants taken seriously, then we should examine it with our best method of inquiry -- the scientific method. That is taking it seriously.

Some topics -- such as God, the good, reality, and consciousness -- have been claimed to transcend the limited scope of human concepts and thus the methods of science. I have no quarrel with someone who claims this and then, being consistent, says no more about these topics.

But if one does say more, then "What can be said at all can be said clearly" and probed with the scientific method.

And here's my blunter rephrasing:

If you believe that God, or anything else supernatural, is so ineffable it's beyond thought and language, then, please, shut the fuck up and don't say anything to the rest of us about what can't be talked about.

On the other hand, if God, or anything else supernatural, can indeed be discussed in thought and language, then be prepared for some damn tough questions about what evidence you have for your belief.

Do you get it, religious believers? You can't have it both ways.

Meaning, you can't blather on about God, soul, spirit, karma, heaven, astral regions, mystical powers, or any other sort of supernatural shit if you claim that all this stuff lies beyond the domain of human concepts, thoughts, and language.

Just be silent. Keep your ineffable experience to yourself.

Because believe me, there's nothing more boring than to have someone drone on about their supposed experience of God or something else divine, then have that person respond with "It was a personal experience" when asked to provide evidence of its existence.

Guess what?

Everything anyone experiences is personal. There's no such thing as an impersonal experience. But it's possible to talk about personal experiences when what's been experienced exists in a realm of shared reality. 

For example, yesterday my wife and I went on a bike ride at Black Butte Ranch in central Oregon with my daughter and granddaughter that involved stopping for a photograph in front of Black Butte. You don't have to take my word for it. Here's a photo. (I don't like to smile much, or at all, in photos because I don't like my smile.)

But no one really knows what my experience of the bike ride that included a stop to feed carrots to horses grazing in the Big Meadown was like. Yet obviously I don't go around claiming that everyone should do what I just did, and have the same experience that I did.

So why do religious believers talk endlessly about how everyone should love Jesus, follow the teachings of Muhammed, embrace a living guru, or whatever? I have much more evidence to support my experience of Black Butte Ranch than any believer has about a supposed supernatural experience.

The difference between us is that I know that my experience was of a genuine reality, so I feel no need to try to convince others that what I experienced was real. On the other hand, religious believers like to blab on, and on, and on about things that there is no evidence for -- except in their own minds.

This is why they should shut their mouths unless they're prepared to present persuasive evidence that what they experienced is true. Please, don't bore those of us who like to exist in reality with your fantasies. Look, I'm fine with fantasies, so long as they are acknowledged as such.

That's what every book of fiction is: a fantasy of the author's mind. Ditto for every movie other than documentaries, or every piece of art that isn't a photograph. I have no problem with people sharing supposed supernatural experiences if they admit that there's no reason for anyone else to believe that the experience was of something objectively real.

But as Hoffman said, once you claim to be able to express your religious experience of a supernatural reality in words or concepts, be prepared to have skeptics like me try to tear apart your arguments. Reality is too precious to be diminished to someone's personal fantasy.

Comments

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Brian
I do love to see your family and animals in beautiful environments, at fairs, and festivals, in parks.

That is your experience. I may never get there, but I enjoy reading about your experience.

Same for spiritual experience. Most people know it's subjective, but it's just as real for them as your day in the trails with family.

When we can honor and enjoy each person's experience through their own eyes, that's a good thing. We gain a level of understanding we didn't have before.

You see actors, writers, musicians, programmers, architects, composers, artists and athletes who do things we will never do discuss their process, their experience, their struggles and their joy. Most of what they discuss is subjective, what they thought, how they felt. I love hearing about it. It's completely personal and subjective. Why should it bother you?

I will never be an Olympic skater, but I love watching them, and their stories behind the scenes.

Same for art. Van Gogh's momentary joy, his subjective and fleeting experience painting just a field of workers toiling away, in a lifetime of crushing rejection and defeat, is his triumph.

Everyone has their story, Brian.

Stories of prayer and faith are great. The God people find in themselves is part of themselves. That's a wonderful moment of relief, help, in lives torn completely apart by trauma and loss.

Those are moments of victory. For many, many, many people, including children, they are the only moments keeping them alive.

[Jesse]

"there's nothing more boring than to have someone drone on about their supposed experience of God or something else divine, then have that person respond with "It was a personal experience" when asked to provide evidence of its existence."

I get what you're saying, but I'd actually welcome people to discuss subjective experiences if they did so without coupling it with their beliefs.

For example, if anyone here would say "i sat down doing simran, and it was as if i'd left my body and was seeing a turbaned man made of gemstones flying through the stars" I'd appreciate that. But most are not ready to admit that very little happens to them in their religion. Neither life changing personal development nor mindblowing transcendent experiences.

[Fairy]

🖖Live long and prosper. So long!🧚Fairy dust. Linda.

[SP]

Jesse,

Actually most should readily admit that very little happens to them (unless they are ashamed to admit it). It's those few who do experience that decide to remain quiet about their experiences.

And it's best to ask those few their reasons for keeping quiet.

I doubt very much we have one such few in here. Maybe Anon could help us all by asking his/her mother.

Cheers,

[SP]

Have a laugh too!!! Especially for my atheist brothers in here.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T7I_FaGzXnc

[Mike England]

Spence and Jesse
Such polar opposites and a good way to start these comments.
Bring it on boys 😊

[Chy]

As long as we live in the physical body we may have inner spiritual or just inner experiences.
We are staged now to experience this world here as we say in our waking lives.
Therefore we will not have a vivid ongoing constant awareness of the VERY REAL inner dimensions..these experiences are not constant. They are from time to time if you are honest with yourself.
When they happen we are not functioning here on planet earth we are there....

That is as well we are not living on the other side constantly. It is blocked from our AWARENESS purposely in order that we function here on earth lets say and do this reality.
We basically use our conscious mind and have impressions of experiences that filter down from the subconscious and higher up mind . The soul experiences.
Our destiny is majorly here or we would be without a body living THERE.
As well our impressions experiences dont make sense are fragmented and complete like dreams because they are filtered to this dimension.
M. Charan says /said dont pay attention to all this. Its of the mind. Keep doing meditation and get back to your true home.

Me: whether you listen to him or not (your minds choice in the moment.) All these things ARE a filteration from higher awareness to our conscious existence...enjoy as you like it but you have to live THIS REALITY at this time..
Chy

[Meditator]

High profile spiritual experiences felt in heads of a chosen few, for now seems to demean rest majority not so lucky or blessed who has been incessantly searching for legible answers here on this forum as also in satsangs on live spirituality, in operation here and now, which as said becomes apparent in physical realms at certain stage.

To me none is stranger and none is less blessed than other.

For now if I am one eyed ( plain and honest) towards one and all I am as much spiritual as one who has been blessed with swift inner access. After all its the same consciousness lighting up each body. each creature

Your life can not be governed by others spiritual experiences until one has it. Till then except for some inspiration it may be just a Pandora box - never to be believed.

Perhaps a few of us have dotted indirect hints about their inner encounters with same Turbanator to show His relevance in spirituality despite His sinking ship in this world and who even has been fought fiercely on this blog - doing autopsies repeatedly - threadbare investigation by able and honest minds.

In fact some of us are in love with the Almighty and His creation and wish others to appreciate His creation and Him if not Sardar Ji.

[John]

Yep. Well said.

[Jesse]

"It's those few who do experience that decide to remain quiet about their experiences"

The internet is full of discussions on meditation experiences. They're just not radha soami perfect savior experiences.

But even RSSB used to sell cassettes that included satsangis describing their experiences. I don't know why they stopped.

[Jesse]

"After all its the same consciousness lighting up each body. each creature"

What if even this is untrue. What if there's a different substance that gave you life than the one that gave me life?

All you sort of know is what you experience. Assuming I'm not just projecting you out into the world. In that case you're my holographic entertainment.

[Anon]

SP those who experience remain quiet for 2 reasons
One is that if you have something very precious to you don’t go around telling everyone about it. The example given about a precious diamond you don’t declare to everyone that you have this rare diamond which they don’t, and perhaps no matter how hard they work may not be able to get. It’s a bit showoffy and those who truly have inner spiritual experiences won’t go into that space.

Secondly evenif one does talk about it people won’t believe them. There was an example of a Chinese man who asked the present master in the q and a about seeing him at the hospital whilst he was ill (this was an experience which was more real that reality to him) and he went into detail about it but when mentioned on this blog was dismissed at hallucinations or past impressions etc etc. so why put something so precious to you out there or tell people if are inclined not to believe you?

[Meditator]

Dear Jesse,
Hope you don't mind my take to yours.

Even though you look straight into my comment by your eyes but my inner self looks it differently, thru same apertures - eyes as yours and as provided to our species and likewise same set of organs and other tools that have been provided... our bodies run on consciousness. Dead Sure about this.

But I am not sure if your life giving or pulling substance (the consciousness) is made up of Iron and mine that of Aluminium.

In fact the whole spiritual stuff has been devoted to filter oneself somehow out of this body, at the best in this lifetime.

[Chy]

Jesse.
"Neither life changing personal development nor mindblowing transcendant experiences"....

Thats a truthful statement!!!
Even m. Charan said we come in with our basic personality conditioning and habits in this incarnation.

Me :
All this self help to charge a lot of money to promise BIG changes...no usually your life circumstances have shifted around after the therapy experience but the basic self is the same overall....

Continuous daily transcendant inner visual meditation experiences.
Come-on....keep selling books.

I hit well with Jesses comment....but also keep on journaling your inner moments...they do add up..
Chy

[j]

What's the scientific justification for women's rights, handicap rights, gay rights, and human rights in general? If there is one, I've never heard of it. According to science, the only discernable purpose to human life is procreation. That means that people who can't or won't procreate are a burden to those of us who can or do, and therefore should be cleansed from the scene. To put it more bluntly, according to science Hilter, Mao and Stalin had the right idea. They were managing society in a scientific way, devoid of the opiate of the masses.

"Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? And then, with a better motive, had we not worshipfully beheld the sunset, the sea, or a flower? Who of us had not loved something or somebody? How much did these feelings, these loves, these worships, have to do with pure reason? Little or nothing, we saw at last. Were not these things the tissue out of which our lives were constructed? Did not these feelings, after all, determine the course of our existence? It was impossible to say we had no capacity for faith, or love, or worship. In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else. Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn't be life. But we believed in life - of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Of course we couldn't. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said. Hence, we saw that reason isn't everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable..." Bill Wilson 1939

[Mike England]

The RSSB is a good mythology and has some great stuff in their books and teachings.
My favourite being: Ghosts are real.

Which they are 👻 👻 👻

[Jesse]

"our bodies run on consciousness"

Life support. Essentially dead people with dead brains. Totally unconscious. Their bodies still working. Where is the "consciousness" in that?

"In fact the whole spiritual stuff has been devoted to filter oneself somehow out of this body, at the best in this lifetime. "

This is not a ubiquitous position. Not all religions, aka spiritual paths, are about transcending your physicality. Jehovas Witnesses among other Christians believe that death is just sleep and a time to wait until resurrection, and that the promised life to come is one of paradise on a perfect earth. 100% physical. They don't even believe in souls. There is no consensus on the existence of souls or afterlife in Judaism. These theories are no more or less ridiculous than any other theory about what happens after death, or what sort of metaphysical cosmology we exist in.

"keep on journaling your inner moments...they do add up.."

Mountain climbers, sailors, bar hoppers. Their moments are far more substantial and add up faster. That's why even meditators want to read their memoirs, and nobody wants to read the memoir of a guy who sat all day repeating 5 words they don't know the meaning of in the hopes that those 5 words would some day become magical powers.

[Jesse]

"why put something so precious to you out there or tell people if are inclined not to believe you?"

Why believe without question whatever your cult leader tells you? RSSB sold tapes which included audience members describing their experiences of light and sound. Everyone blindly believed those descriptions.

Everything you said is false. Don't do that. Just be dumb like me. Dumb, but not so wrong that it brings shame to the spirits of my ancestors.

[Jesse]

"According to science, the only discernable purpose to human life is procreation. "

Science is a method of inquiry into the nature of what can be observed. It is not a system of moral values. What are you even talking about?

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi guys

Some interesting comment in response to Brian’s recent posts. I would like to follow on from what Chy said on the 28th:
“It is blocked from our AWARENESS purposely in order that we function here on earth lets say and do this reality.
We basically use our conscious mind and have impressions of experiences that filter down from the subconscious and higher up mind . The soul experiences.”

I’m interpreting the ‘it’ of which Chy speaks as the wider dimensions of consciousness potentially available to us. That this is generally ‘blocked/filtered’ is supported by arguments/info presented in two enjoyable books I recently read. Both use quite strong scientific evidence to back up what they say. The first by Marjorie Woollacot (a neuroscientist and practitioner of Kashmir Shaivism), is called ‘Infinite Awareness- The Awakening of a Scientific Mind’ (2015). She writes: “We need to accept - at least hypothetically and for the moment - that the brain itself doesn’t produce consciousness. That it is, instead, a kind of reducing valve or filter, shifting the larger, nonphysical consciousness that we possess in the nonphysical worlds down into a more limited capacity for the duration of our mortal lives”, (p.124).
The second book I found really interesting - How to Change Your Mind. The New Science of Psychedelics by Michael Pollan (2018). This book is certainly about the power psychedelics have to open us up to wider consciousness, particularly in regard to such things as loss of self and unitive type experience. However, a fair chunk also deals with an exploration of consciousness as ‘spiritual/mystical experience’ and how this relates to psychedelics (very similar imo). Pollan goes into some depth about how this can be measured/assessed using tools of modern neuroscience. He writes when considering the ‘mind as a reducing valve’ view of Aldous Huxley: “That stingy, vigilant security guard [the EGO] admits only the narrowest bandwidth of reality, a measly trickle of the kind of consciousness which will help us to stay alive. It’s really good at performing all those activities that natural selection values: getting ahead, getting liked and loved, getting fed, getting laid” (p. 289).

As I progressed through the book it gets even more interesting when Pollan discusses recent research into what neuroscientists call the DMN - the DEFAULT MODE NETWORK of the brain, which as I read it, he suggests is the centre where a lot of the so called filtering takes place. It’s an area where the influence of entropy (energy/activity) is regulated and what is allowed into waking consciousness controlled. Pollan writes: ‘The achievement of an individual self, a being with a unique past and a trajectory into the future, is one of the glories of human evolution, but it is not without its drawbacks and potential disorders. The price of the sense of an individual identity is a sense of separation from others and nature” (p. 304). He considers the possibility that in neuroscientific terms at least, the DMN could be the seat of the self (little s) and that ‘mystical experience may just be what it feels like when you deactivate the brain’s DMN.

Pollan, unlike Woollacot (who also has extensive meditational experience) is not as convinced that consciousness exists outside the brain, but has really changed his mind a lot as his journey progresses.
Two good reads.

Best wishes

[Anon]

Jesse I don’t believe. Belief by definition is blind. Experience for yourself then you don’t need to believe.

[Jesse]

"We need to accept - at least hypothetically and for the moment "

Explaining that you're part of a very specific Hindu sect and saying we need to accept anything at all is not a good place to start.

"nonphysical consciousness that we possess in the nonphysical worlds" So, a neuroscientist is saying we need to accept the existence of non physical "worlds?" Ok. Why? This already makes me not want to read the book.

[SP]

The RSSB is a good mythology and has some great stuff in their books and teachings. My favorite being: Ghosts are real. Which they are

Some back up please Mike.

Thanks

[SP]

Jesse says

Why believe without question whatever your cult leader tells you? RSSB sold tapes which included audience members describing their experiences of light and sound. Everyone blindly believed those descriptions.

SP: Could you share those audio recordings please.

And also says

Brings shame to the spirits of my ancestors.

SP: what spirits? Evidence of the "spirits" please. Even a picture will suffice for establishing that your ancestors spirits were for real!!! You know just like that beautiful foal lying on the grass.

And what does no evidence mean?

[Chy]

Hi Tim...
Good news on your post on the brain...!! More in that later when I can get to it.
Now wont go into much on here but the issue that is affecting many people now in meditation spiritual work of psychic lines is
Crystallization of the pineal gland...
Certain environmental things happening in todays world is causing a sort of( calcification ) better word of this area.
This causes meditations to be difficult onto possibly impossible folks not being able to get into this area too well. and the psychic communications within the individual to be shutting down.
There are some remedies that can be researched and done to decalcify..
Chy

[Jesse]

"Could you share those audio recordings please."

You'll have to ask old satsangis. It'll be hard to find now.

I could tell you what was said on one of the tapes, but you probably won't believe me.

[Mike England]

👻 👻 👻

How’s that for back up SP?

Real Ghosts

👻 👻 👻

[Mike England]

Further evidence:
Ghost voice
“Woooo Hooooo”

[SP]

Thank you for giving it your best shot.

Don't blame you for the multiple deficiencies on display.

At least can't blame you for not being sincere.

[I'm_coming_for_u]

Hiya Mickey oops Mike,

TY for letting us know how Ghosts sound.

Somebody ought to also tell you how you sound. So here it is

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4PnUfYhbDDM

[Mike England]

SP
I am surprised at your cyclical cynicism.
That was my strongest argument that ghosts are real.
Maybes you will believe this photo of a ghost conclave.

Now do you believe???

[Chy]

August 28 1021 pm post by
Jesse
Yes I would like to know what you heard on one of the tapes..if you dont mind to briefly summarize. Appreciate it..
Chy

[SP]

Thanks for sending the photo. It's from 2016. So of no use to us now. Pretty much just like you.

Btw we've had some very interesting photo session at this year's ongoing conclave. I'll let you know when we release them for human consumption.

I'm_coming_for_you , he is the maverick amongst us. But is usually spot on. I hope you don't mind that he's made public a truth.

[Mike England]

I saw a ghost who wasn’t there
You wasn’t there
I saw the eyesore
A ghost

[SP]

Move away from the mirror.

[Jesse]

Chy, I heard it once in 2007 so the details are scarce and fuzzy.

Essentially a man was talking about how he did simran all the time but not mediation. One day after work he was extremely tired and sat down, possibly continuing the simran but I don't remember.
He fell into a restful state but wasn't sleeping when he found himself in a different world. He said there was a sound like that of millions of bells ringing and orbs made of light floating everywhere. He wanted to hold onto the orbs and bring them back with him.

That's about all I remember. To be honest it strikes me as a dream he had. I've dreamt similar things, and it's especially dream like to want to bring objects "back to reality."

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's especially important to note that he didn't know he couldn't carry back the object because RS claims you're in a state of super consciousness and that during meditation you're even more keenly aware of the distinction between astral and physical realms.

[Spence Tepper]

Jesse
The orbs are other souls. Too big to bring back.
If you hang with them, they take form, swans, then angels, then human beings. They morph into the familiar. You could say they are the soul in its most beautiful, flawless, illuminated covering.

The world you enter at the second stage begins this way. They approach you. They come like a welcoming committee of golden orbs. As if to congratulate you for arriving, but mostly just to see who you are and greet you. You see them at first like car headlights at night approaching. But as they approach it's clear they are huge. And as you pay attention to them, they become human. And the night they apoeared from becomes a realm of light.

In time they become friends.

But it all starts there as approaching lights that begin to appear as orbs.

We are instructed not to spend too much time there.

[Jesse]

"The orbs are other souls. Too big to bring back. "

He said he was carrying them around. Obviously not very big. And he wasn't an orb himself. Why would one single soul not be an orb of light?

Sorry, gonna have to disregard non-dream explanations. I think he fell asleep and dreamed about the things he had read about. Brains are cool like that.

[Anon]

I have a recording of this. The man speaks of his experience in great detail. It’s part of a Satsang on death.

[Georgy Porgy]

There is a direct correlation between life’s most deepest experiences and a lack of language to describe such phenomenon.

The closest language gets to many of these experiences is poetry, music and art - which is more about evoking emotion than intellectual definitions.

The deeper the experience - the less likely it can be described in words.

Religion is a waste of time, particularly when foisted on others - but inner spirituality is the antithesis. Isn’t this what the mystics teach? Go within and don’t talk about your experiences, which are personal.

It’s the scientists and priests that jabber on and revel in their supposed advanced states of knowledge and proselytize their faith in spreading the good word. Who are writing their books in the pursuit of money and ego?

So who should really shut the fk up (apart from Osho after being lights out)?

[Anon]

Chy do you want the recording? It’s fascinating

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Anon
Can you transcribe the recording for us?
So we are speaking factually and directly from the account first hand, and not memory or conjecture years later.

Thanks

[Chy]

Hi Anon. Spence Jesse....
Yes!!! would like the recording..looks like Spence wants it as well.
Can you post it someway on here for all who get in here like when somebody posts a you tube link?.
Or do you not want to put it publically?
Personally keep it simple and post it if you can or how can I get it?
This is very interesting.

Jesse when we shift awareneses it seems dreamlike....and you know the difference in a so so dream and "something else". AND I BELIEVE you have done this inner stuff and may be discounting it. .......
Forgive me if not just a sense I got of you.
Chy

[Anon]

Chy I cannot post it here and it isn’t on YouTube. But if you give me your email I will happily send it to you.

[Chy]

Hi Anon...
Do you mind giving me yours and I will write to you at your email address with mine...or we could go through Brian?
Let me know.
Thank you..
Chy

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Jesse

Yep I guess it’s how one interprets ‘non-physical worlds’. Woollacot’s view is that such things exist. She bases this on the research presented in her book and supports it through discussion of her own meditational experience of many decades. I agree the terms could be seen as a bit woolly (excuse the pun), and also instead of using the word ‘accept’, ‘consider’ could be an alternative. She presents a working hypothesis that is further developed through the book including building on the brain as a 'consciousness-filter' idea. This makes sense to me. The other book goes into it in more detail and outlines modern scientific research which seems to point to the brain’s DMN as a control centre.
Also I gained more insight into Kashmir Shivaism from Woollacot’s book. Hindu sect indeed, but pretty interesting in what I see as it’s non-dual take on things. I believe the notion from KS (as I’ve said before) that one can be both an individual and the universe at the same time also really resonates with me. It’s all about the expansion/unfolding of consciousness in my view.

I’d suggest your dad too could also take a look at these books - but I don’t know who he is :-).
BFN

[Anon]

Sure Chy email me at
[email protected]

[Dungeness]

Can you post it someway on here for all who get in here like when somebody posts a you tube link?.
Or do you not want to put it publically?

Google Drive provides a mechanism to post a public doc which
I've used. Details are murky but I've used it before.

[Chy]

Hi Anon...
That email address was returned to me saying it does not exist...I rechecked all things and I sent a response to it correctly per what you gave me....?.
Chy

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse and Anon
In respect for the privacy of the speaker, and their rights to their submission to the Sangat I cannot transcribe the discussion.

Anon, thank you for entrusting me with the privilege of listening to this treasure.

Anon, is there is a way to get their permission? This would be very helpful to transcribe and post what they said. As scientists we can be in awe of all anecdotal witnesses to every part of this creation.

A couple of points can be stated. First, the speaker's discipline in her practice comes through in her very well organized and articulated experience, both personally, her emotional reactions, as well as the internal experiences she relates. Beautufully presented and of benefit to anyone.

Her experience has specific facets (she attributes this to someone else, an anonymous witness, though it is for the reader /listener to connect the depth of the disclosure, the fear, and the triumph, as in fact the speaker's).

She heard many sounds, but not yet the shattering big bell that simply overtakes all the others and nearly rips the soul from the body up and beyond at incredible, unfathomable speed.

And she enters that shower of multicolored lights, but rather than a momentary passage, the author was in fact able to stop and inspect them, each with its own singing tone. She relates experiences of touching them.

This is simply a different stage. A beautiful stage.

Being pulled through this shower of lights, like being shot through a cannon, into explosions of light in Master's embrace (not arms, but inside Him). then into stages of utter darkness and through to a higher region does not negate the beauty of what this woman relates. It is simply a specific stage, and a beautiful one.

She doesn't use the word orbs... These singing lights of different colors can be held. They shower down, there are rivers and mountains of gems of light. But at that stage, entrance into the Astral through Shabd (there are other entrances) there is still a body with arms and limbs, and tactile as well as olfactory experience. We can meet the Astral form of Master here (but it isn't his pure Shabd form of blinding light, which is the third stage.)

Beyond Astral regions , there is only light and sound, and further still beyond light and sound is all light and all sound. Sound and light are oscillations, but when they all become one, complete.. Unmoving, resolved, it's beyond description.

Where souls have the thinnest possible covering, they appear as orbs of light initially. But they can resolve into illuminated beings depending upon our focus. They adapt to what we are conditioned to. We find the true Shabd form of Master here, and that form is so brilliant, everything else seems to evaporate. There is only Master and us, and then we merge and there is only Master.

At some point the practitioner goes here first, the Soul finds its anchor here, and pulls awareness up here beyond the other stages, as if this third stage was in fact the first, as soon as we withdraw from the body.

Where I must acknowledge Brian Ji's efforts as the divine Bulldozer, is to acknowledge that these are only internal experiences. They all take place within the human body. But in fact there is a model of the entire creation coded into this body.

They are no more than accomplishments, or stages in any field of effort. They don't deserve a sacred status. If you hike up a beautiful hill you happened upon, all credit goes to the beatiful hillsides, which you neither created nor can add anything to.

Getting there are only practical issues in a physical creation.

[Anon]

Chy the email is right as I recieved Spence’s email. Check again it’s [email protected]

[Jesse]

They used to sell the tape I'm pretty sure. Wtf does respecting the speaker mean?

Just upload the orb talk. My god it's not 1985. You're not gonna go to court for copyright violations.

[Anon]

Spence no I don’t have permission, and I wouldn’t want to break any rules(as we have recently seen not a good thing to do.) 😉 glad you enjoyed it.

[Spence Tepper]

Thank you Anon.
Yes, not only the club rules, but to honor the rights of all concerned.

Yours

Spence

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jesse
Legality aside, this is actually the property of the speaker, and as that was submitted to the Sangat the testimony is their property.

But to comment on it, briefly, anyone can do.

I hope one day we all can take a scientific perspective, but science is a collective, collaborative effort fueled on a foundation of mutual respect.

[Chy]

Ok ill resend.
This time you displayed a small letter i..
Instead of L....it was an I not l .
Chy

[Dungeness]

Anon, is there is a way to get their permission? This would be very helpful to transcribe and post what they said.
--Spence no I don’t have permission, and I wouldn’t want to break any rules(as we have recently
--seen not a good thing to do.) 😉 glad you enjoyed it.

Hello Anon, was it put on tape for a private audience? I can't imagine
the author intending to restrict its distribution. Did RSSB disallow it?
Perhaps this is a miscommunication with "authorities" who are steeped
in ritual and didn't actually confirm the author's intent? (Gosh, I'm
with Jessie on this :)

P.S.
In the 80's I think there was a similar tape, allegedly by a security guard
at Jan Smuts airport in South Africa, who did tons of simran, but not
standard meditation, and experienced an uncomfortable, sudden
withdrawal. Once withdrawal was complete though, he describes
the incredible beauty of what he saw. Many had the tape too.

[Chy]

Well
It appears that Spence requested the transcript of the orb speech for himself and the group ..and after receiving it gave Anon an issue that it was illegal possibly and belonged to the sangat...
And suddenly Anon is directed by Spence not to further share the transcript. the rest of the group is not to receive the transcript. Perhaps it should not be transcribed for any publications then without permission. No doubt no one cares they are not writing a book...if planning to use this story in a book or future recording should seek signed permission to use that story .
It sure got complicated for no reason.
Anon is not to feel bad wishing to share an old RS satsang tape...
Chy

[Spence Tepper]

I'm sorry Chy but you have it backwards. Anon requested that I not transcribe it, and after listening, destroy my copy. When I thought about it I realized this is someone else's property and privacy. And after listening, it became clear this is the testimony of someone's devout, disciplined effort over several years. Her work must be honored.

At the very least it is in Anon's hands and her right to place conditions. I honour that she shared this with me, and her request.

It's all about respect. You cannot force people to do as you wish. But if you honor their sentiments, then generally, you gain their trust.

And trust is everything. The original speaker has a right to how their words are distributed.

This is a simple principle, nothing complicated. It only becomes complicated when we try to work around others' sentiments rather than honor them.

A person's words are sacrosanct and should be honored.

[Dungeness]

Legality aside, this is actually the property of the speaker, and as that was submitted to the Sangat the testimony is their property.

I'm confused per usual. The author submitted the tape to the
Sangat for distribution so is it specifically her caveat that it not
be transcribed or the Sangat's? Any official explanation behind
the prohibition if the latter?

Is it still available per email request?

[Anon]

Hi dungerees yes it’s the same experience that you are referring to of the man from South Africa.

[SP]

Well this recording has done it's round on WhatsApp. I heard it about six months ago. It might be on YouTube too.

I hope it wasn't a case of someone finding the discourse interesting, pressed the record button on his/her mobile smuggled into the tent (for simply hearing it again later) and then pressed the send button.

[SP]

Spence,

Your articulation of the astral planes and beyond puts the speaker's to shame.

So is this due to your experience of the astral regions and more important of the one's beyond?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
I only write about my own experience.
The speaker's report is as honorable as any other report about reality, whether subjective or objective. Her discipline puts me to shame.

[SP]

Spence,

Thank you.

You are just being modest especially if you write from your experience of beyond the astral planes.

Have a question which I hope you can answer

Despite the true beauty of the regions being indescribable, mystics have shared some insights through their utterances documented in scriptures. But nothing or negligible about the Maha sunn region. Why is this the case?

[Milton]

Hello, I'm on the path, initiated recently.
I'm the biggest skeptic in the world, but before getting to know rssb I had different internal experiences. With what 1 was the most strange and quite incomprehensible.

I found myself in the astral world, in the middle of the night, I don't know I was sleeping - because I was still waking up and couldn't sleep. Suddenly a light hit me, I could hear squeaking sounds, noise, and then vibrating sounds as if the train was traveling. Shiu Shiu shiiu. A whirl pulled me in: D
 At the end I heard millions of bells, many bells sounds and white light. White light was a further background.
So I flew around this space, suddenly I saw a silver ball that shone and disappeared with different colors. This bullet attracted me, then I got scared and it was over. It even lasted a long time, because I watched and studied everything thoroughly. :))))

After many months, I read the descriptions of rssb accidentally, what the astral world looks like, I confirmed these sensations on myself earlier.
Shortly afterwards I got an initiation, after which I have a lot of new experiences and I am completely satisfied. Because I have proof of my inner worlds. Never before had anyone told me anything about a sphere and white light. And when I read about the sound of the bell, I was shocked. Everything has been confirmed. I have a lot of experiences that I don't know if I can talk about. Because you risk losing them. I have no reason to lie.

I will explain again because my English is poor.
1. I have never heard of rssb or internal experiences.
2. I had experience of the astral world. (it was not normal dream)
3. I met rssb student by on the internet and description of regions. (I was surprised, I was very happy, because I had the same)
4. I contacted to talk.
5. soon after(2 years), I received the initiation.
6. I have my own different experiences, the same and new, but I can't prove it to anyone. I can only write using words.
Regards. ( I haven't written here before, but I've been reading this blog for several months.)

[tucson]

Milton,

I have had several experiences very similar to yours. The silver cosmic disco ball can be merged with and penetrated to other dimensions. It is a portal. Yes, fear will pull you back but familiarity will allow you to go further. It is safe and good. No hurry. Kind entities abound there and are waiting for you very happy to see you when you arrive. In fact, you have already arrived. It is here. We never left.

I too was receptive to RSSB because of these experiences. This was about five decades ago. After initiation, unlike you, I had fewer visions/experiences. I am no longer involved with RSSB. No hard feelings. It just became unnecessary. It is all within us. We are the Guru. The Guru is us. The Guru is God, so we are....

Right?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
You write
"But nothing or negligible about the Maha sunn region. Why is this the case?"

Honestly I have no idea. The scope of the darkness there is so great it swallows up all the lower regions like a tiny candle disappearing into the distance. Utter darkness and nothing to hold onto. So dark no thought can survive there. No individuality even, and yet all consciousness, but the consciousness of the void. My own experience was of great fear. And when you start with courage, even that turns to fear in that region. Whatever was left of you before is erased there. Nothing can pass through it.

There are no limits to it. No bearings. Master had to carry me through, and at immense speed.

[Milton]

Spence Tepper

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
Can you describe what happens next? Or maybe it's somewhere or you have a description of what's next, after the region of emptiness and darkness?

Mysticism says that the last region, the soul feels bliss, happiness and peace - forever. It doesn't explain much. In the books of religion and the Gnostic writings, I read that the soul is able to assimilate all knowledge, has power over destiny and absolute will. I also heard that there is no light and sound at the end. What exactly is there? I do not know. What does the soul feel then? Therefore, I will not say that I am God or Guru now.

Apparently at stage 3, man always has a contact with the Master, he can ask him questions when want. And I would like to know, for example: is the earth round or flat? : D
Can anyone answer me?

[SP]

Thanks Spence for sharing.

So it's absolute void? Nothing? No entities at all?

Cheers

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Milton!
The earth is round, at least it looks that way from space. :)

The inner path has been discussed and documented by many mystics and students practicing meditation. My own experiences are an n=1 and not worthy of consideration as "the path" since each path is a little different due to our differences in conditioning and mind. Alak, Agam, Anami... The human mind cannot hold them.

What matters is your experience and connection. That's meditation practice.

Happiness, one you have found it within, is always part of your experience.

Feeling happy all the time is a nice goal, but to accomplish anything actually often requires putting that aside and going through significant difficulty. But as that happiness is just a thought away, it definitely provides a solid foundation to hold to, so that we can do the right thing, especially when that is not going to be of any help to our worldly status and often the opposite.

As for Master being with us, there is no place or time He isn't. It's just a matter of living in His presence. The lord is within. When you close your eyes, that's the experience to try to understand / unlock. A higher consciousness is there, benevolent and in love with you. Because what is there is part of the creation. Your brain is part of the creation. You can call that God.

Dr. David Lane has made his career documenting various aspects of the inner journey as reported by various mystics and is a true expert in the cartography of the reports of inner experience, at least in Shabd meditation.

David, if you are reading this, can you shed some light for Milton and all of us in this?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi SP
You ask
"So it's absolute void? Nothing? No entities at all?"

All the regions below, including this one we are communicating in now, and therefore all its inhabitants, are actually in the void.

It is not too difficult to get lost there without Master. If there were one other being there, that would be a point of reference. But there are no points of reference.

If you are in a small boat in the middle of the ocean, to you, you are absolutely alone. Of course there are whole cities, towns, communities of ocean life beneath you. But on that surface, above that, as far as the eye can see, nothing.

The void is filled with consciousness, a singular one. There is nothing else. But that single consciousness is of the void.

Difficult to discuss because these points are objectively incomplete. So even though souls can be lost there for eons, in that region directly, they are unseen. All the regions, including this one are in that larger void. But it is so large that the experience is utter emptiness. Fear becomes joy when you merge with that, but it is a circuitous route. Master takes you beyond, to anchor your soul in a region beyond light, beyond sound, beyond space. That region includes the void, but by comparison, the void shrinks to insignificance, just as the regions below. Once anchored to a place, like being tethered, though the boat on the surface can toss around a bit, it can right itself just pulling on the anchor chain. And putting on your diving gear, you can return anytime to the place Master brought you, beyond that void.

For so many years as a child I was terrified of it.. First bank nal, the curving void, then terrified of the great void.

But what terrifies a child becomes nothing more than a drive to the grocery store to an adult. All of that is due to my Master's compassion.

[Milton]

I am grateful for your statement. Thanks. This is a very important discussion, I think. After all, if there is a source where we come from and we go there, it is better and should be something to know about salvation. Unfortunately, short words are not enough for the intellectual mind. I have to ask practitioners and I don't know many of them. There are still the inner voice of the Master, but it is a great scarcity for novices. Apparently, four incarnations were to be a guarantee of salvation, but they are not. That's what I've heard. It can take a long time. Do i have right? I am very curious what was documented by Dr. David Lane as well as his statements.

[Jim]

Just Fing do it!