Comment respectfully, please

Here's some reminders to those who leave comments on Church of the Churchless posts. I've been loose on these guidelines, because I support free speech. But I'm going to be a bit stricter from now on.

-- Try to comment on the subject of a blog post. If you leave an occasional off-topic comment, that's fine. But in general, off-topic comments should go in an Open Thread post.

-- This isn't a discussion forum. I realize that some commenters like to engage in lengthy, and often repetitive, comment conversations. Try to keep them brief. When you've made your point, and someone doesn't agree with you, move on. Stop arguing. Find another subject.

-- It's boring to insult people in a comment. Don't do it. Stand up for issues, ideas, concepts, and such that you feel need discussing. But don't insult other commenters, or anyone else. Criticize what someone says or does, not the person themselves. 

-- Brief quotations in a comment are fine. However, speak in your own words, mostly. For sure, don't include lengthy quotes from a supposedly holy book or scripture. Remember: this is the Church of the Churchless, not the Churched.

-- In general, be respectful. Be thoughtful. Be reasonable. Be factual. Be open-minded. Be flexible. Understand that we're not out to change minds. My goal for this blog is to give people an opportunity to make up their own minds.

Comments

[manjit]

Fair request!

You request: "However, speak in your own words, mostly. For sure, don't include lengthy quotes from a supposedly holy book or scripture."

Errm, well, as I think I'm the only one who has recently posted "lengthy quotes from a supposedly holy book or scripture", I assume this refers to me (PS, yes they are very lengthy!).

Just to clarify the purpose of those "lengthy quotes"; whilst I'm sure you (Brian) don't appreciate, are interested in, or probably understand their import (my awareness that your interest in RS teachings & phenomena is very limited skyrocketed when you recently stated you had only bothered to read Faqir Chand very recently! :-o), there are, or at least should be, people interested in the teachings of RS, and it's claims to be the very same teachings of past "Sant Mat" teachers such as Guru Nanak, Kabir etc.

The lengthy quote I posted from Guru Nanak (in the wrong thread, should have been in the vegan one!) is to demonstrate a starkly different attitude to eating meat and "sin" to what Radhasoami dogma teaches. As Sawan implicitly & explicitly alleges, the "sin" of being force fed an egg on your deathbed by a Dr is enough to cause "another rebirth". This is an unnatural, nit-picking, hair-splitting, dogmatic teaching that in no way reflects what Guru Nanak says on pages 1289-90 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, a text who's authenticity & accuracy has never been questioned by any RS group. In fact, a close reading of those verses seems to be a direct criticism of precisely this kind of dogmatic & judgemental attitude of Sawan and the vast majority of RS satsangis towards meat & egg eating (but enjoy rubbing their milk & cheese eating in vegan's faces, so well placed is their righteousness :). The quote is subtle, profound and deep. It is worth reading several times, if you have an interest in RS teachings and/or Nanak's teachings.

Re. the 2nd lengthy quote comment I posted about the breath control practices of Nanak, Kabir & several others from the Granth Sahib, and other contemporaries, to contextualise the practices of that culture, I actually think this is a fundamentally important issue for people with a genuine interest in the ACTUAL meditation practices of those gurus, and the demonstrably FALSE claims made about them in all Radhasoami theology and doctrines. Fundamentally important.

To summarise, RS doctrine claims that "pranayama" as a meditation practice ceased to be effective in some previous mythical "yuga", but that in our current mythical "kali yuga", only the practice of shabd yoga as taught by RS is effective. This is standard RS doctrine. They also claim, and have published numerous books selectively picking & interpreting quotes from the Granth Sahib to support the claim, that the mystics in the Granth Sahib (SGGS) practiced the exact same method RS teaches today (dhyan and simran at the eye centre, rather laughably referred to as some esoteric "secret technique" in books like Philosophy of the Masters, whereas it is clear this is a most obvious technique!). RS doctrine also states - and 77 repeated this sentiment in his post to which I replied - that the reach of pranayama was limited (kal) compared to the techniques of the RS mystics (of which RS claims Nanak, Kabir and all the SGGS authors were legitimate "Satgurus).

I feel the numerous quotes I provided in that "22 Open Comments" thread which clearly & unambiguously state that Nanak, Kabir et all were ACTUALLY practicing "pranayama" to listen to the inner sound, and clearly state there to be a causal connection between the two, is a most interesting and unarguable contradiction to what RS claims, and as such would be of interest in those who are interested in the RS teachings, are interested in the actual practices of those past mystics, in the history and evolution of the practices, and finally, just more technical knowledge and information on the shabd yoga meditation for their own practice?

Granted, those people may be few and very far between. I understand the popular way to interact on online forums is to pick a side, and then just shout "ra ra ra" like a cheerleader for your team. Go Team Gugu / Go Team Brian !!!

Not really my style. Thanks for providing a wonderful platform to share views!

[Mary Thomas]

I personally appreciate your point, Manjit, have noticed the same discrepancy myself.
Am referring to synchronising a mantra with the breath as an aid to Bhajan which can be loosely termed as pranayama. It was and is a technique given in many esoteric schools by Gurus and as you say was practised and taught by Nanak and Kabir who are recognised as Sant Saints in Sant Mat.
There's much that raises questions in the basic Sant Mat philosophy which in some areas seems contradictory. Too long to go into here but I understand and appreciate your point.
Am guilty of writing comments that are too long and probably digress myself on the rare occasions I do comment. Kind of feel paranoid now so I better shut up and keep it pithy.
All best wishes and personal thanks for your interesting input.

[Q8i]

-- It's boring to insult people in a comment. Don't do it. Stand up for issues, ideas, concepts, and such that you feel need discussing. But don't insult other commenters, or anyone else. Criticize what someone says or does, not the person themselves.

okay so enforce it. just typing it there is of no consequence.

i can spot at least one personal comment in the dairy post.

[Marko]

Manjit dont know for sure now but i think its also Ratnavali which claims pranayama is not enough. But i really like those quotes you post even a time ago on rss forum i printed them on paper so tnx to you for doing the work to find them.

[Meditator]

Ultimately its about the genuine-ness of Spiritual Master Mr Gurinder Singh in the light of His veiled acts and His thought processes , again hidden obviously that has been the talk of town for fairly long period on your blog with whole of it having been extrapolated to paint whole Spirituality. unequivocally certified as pure. Truth by the esteemed Saints of yore.

If someone gets emotional in raising a point to the point of bad mouthing it need be restricted within decency. I think Baba jee expects. His. believers to be sane and polite and in love with one. and all.

[Jesse]

It's your site so do it how you want, but the culture of the chans and particularly /pol/ is the future. That much is inevitable.

My hero Soph here touches on the topic of language and behavior throughout this video.

I'm so excited for when Gen Z takes over. No more civility where it's unneeded.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/AsRIWjp2MDk/

[MTK]

" I think Baba jee expects. His. believers to be sane and polite and in love with one. and all.".......
Meditator

Look around all those standing very close to you and tell us how many of them have met that expectation

[Chris]

Comments that aspire to be respectful, thoughtful, reasonable and factual CAN change minds. And I think that is a thing to be welcomed, Brian.
But as it will only occur if the readers themselves are open-minded, flexible, thoughtful, reasonable, self-aware, discriminating and seeking truth and accuracy, there may not be much danger of that. I.e. those reading and commenting without seeking to buttress self-cherishing beliefs — either consciously or subliminally — can change their own minds, but such people, in my experience, are few.

I also would like to say that I applaud the stated goal for this blog being to give people an opportunity to others to make up their own minds. Good work!

But regretably, already someone is posting off-topic quotes in response to this message from you, Presumably hoping to influence and change minds. And unfortunately, with information which according to my understanding deceives by omission.
Soooo... hopefully readers won't mind me adding just one more factual but concise bit of info on that off-topic material as a counter-balance.
It is this: according to the earliest writing — written in 1653-55 by someone NOT following the Nanak-Panth (written by a contemporary Persian and interviewer of the sixth and seventh Sikh Gurus), Guru Nanak himself did not eat meat, and Guru Arjan taught that meat eating was not in accordance with Nanak's teachings. I am refering to the seventeenth chronicle of Asian religions named ‘Dabistan e Mazhib’.

[Chris]

CORRECTION: seventeenth century chronicle.

[Meditator]

MTK dear,

Wish that may happen but we are more emotional towards Him than His creation. In fact He resides as much in His creation as He has been in particular bodies He has adopted for His sojourns over here in this mortal persishing world likewise for aeons.

Unfortunately some of us just love one 'Him' leaving all the rest 'Him' - these creatures, Human beings included.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Manjit
You wrote
"To summarise, RS doctrine claims that "pranayama" as a meditation practice ceased to be effective in some previous mythical "yuga", but that in our current mythical "kali yuga", only the practice of shabd yoga as taught by RS is effective. This is standard RS doctrine."

There are a variety of practices to help aid concentration. Simran, Dyan and Bhajan are legitimate if your goal is to merge with the source, which is Shabd.

The issue of focusing on the body, and that includes the breath, is only that you are going down rather than up, since your consciousness is already at the eye center, already in an abstract region, albeit distracted downward into the world and diffused.

We go where our thoughts take us. Focusing on the body or the breath is a little like focusing on a rosary, or other physical instrument, or like listening to a guided meditation. It's actually easier to focus on. It provides an external stimulus that helps anchor and return your thoughts. But then that becomes the anchor that keeps you from going beyond. Second region is about as far as you can get, because it is also anchored to the impressions, the body of energy of which this physical body is just a layer

To really fly, fully conscious, fully aware, fully in control, you have to take off and go where there is no anchor, beyond layers, while maintaining, and actually raising your conscious awareness, focused enough to move you forward. Withdrawing your thoughts into the center fully awake is nearly impossible. Thoughts don't focus themselves... But Shabd isn't anchored to the physical body. Focus on Shabd is flight school.

For that level of movement there is no substitute for Shabd practice. Yes, it's tougher to maintain focus at first, but in time it becomes ecstatic. The music of the spheres is beautiful, and in that enchantment, focus happens in a whole other, natural way, and then you fly right to the third region in Master's lap with little delay. And in time beyond.. Alak, Agam, Anami.

All the methods have a degree of effectiveness. You can get a truck driver's license, a race car driver's license, a pilot's license or an astronaut's license. Each is its own career, each has different requirements, and each produces different results.

If your goal is the inner regions from the third upwards, then naturally, grab the rope of heaven that extends down through them... Shabd. You won't have to do much climbing, it/He will pull you. Simran and Dyan are the rudimentary, but foundational methods to build the right launch pad with no chains attached.

Now, one's experience is personal, so you may really believe in Pranayam, which is really body energy and can be great for the body and mind, done right.

But space travel is a different thing.

[manjit]

Hi Mary - thanks for sharing! You write: "Am guilty of writing comments that are too long and probably digress myself on the rare occasions I do comment. "

Where are those comments? And why not! Writing is a form of therapy, I have found, and Brian doesn't seem to mind, so let it all out.....nothing to be paranoid about :)

Hi Chris - ahhh, priceless & transparent self-delusion as always!! Seriously though, good to see you still around and posting, even if it is wildly disingenuous, misleading & incorrect!

I am glad you mention "self-buttressing beliefs", because as we all know, you have very clearly stated your "self-buttressing belief" set on the RSS forum, and that is your claim that you have studied many spiritual systems and philosophies, and that Radhasoami dogma is the most superior teaching and are willing to debate this with anyone, and also that RSSB, Charan & Gurinder are True Masters of that teaching.

Also, despite requesting it on numerous occasions, you have never quite managed to actually describe a singular "self buttressing belief" of mine? But let's have a closer look at your deeply misleading & dishonest comments above, and the continuation of the laughably absurd double standards you apply to online posters simply providing references anyone can check up on, as opposed to fraudulent babas.

First of all, I did not post any quotes in this thread, as you claim. Secondly, providing a very long & unedited quote from the SGGS is not "information which according to my understanding deceives by omission.". Ironically, that is PRECISELY what your religion RSSB does with the breath quotes, and that is the psychological projecting that is at the root of your response here, but more on that later....:). Thirdly, I at no point whatsoever even remotely suggested Nanak was not a vegeterian. All in your own head, because you can't see past the dogma.

I assume everyone knows Nanak was at the very least vegetarian, if not vegan (as far as we know)? Actually, in the janamsakhis I heard & read over and over again as a very young child, the story goes he actually started eating less and less as he got older, eventually only drinking water, and then eating "air" closer to his death! But what you do not seem to understand, as your mind appears to be in the ravaging grip of religious dogma, is that doesn't mean that Nanak had the same simplistic, naive, rigidly dogmatic & cultic attitude to it as you and Radhasoamis do. You appear to be offended by my simply pointing out this verse because it contradicts the dogma of your religion? Have you read the verse, or ignored it because it doesn't tally with the dogma you believe?

The delicious irony is, you (a vegan) have taken a side-swipe at a me (a vegan) for quoting a Nanak (probably a vegan), simply because his teaching is not as judgemental & dogmatic as your bankrupt & corrupt businessman baba's religion - when your Baba is the only one still eating dairy, and choosing to travel in fully leathered out Bentleys!!! But, like we have witnessed over the decades, you will not say a WORD about that, will you Chris? Do you remember when I said all those years ago, it is the dogma of RS that prevents many people, including me, from re-examining our diets and going vegan? Well, we saw it here in the comments section, didn't we, with several RSSB fanatics rubbing their cheese and milk eating in vegans faces? Yet, no word about your baba, his dairy eating, his choice of leather in luxury cars.......just me, a vegan, posting a quote from Guru Nanak, another vegan.

Ahhhh, so delicious that irony, Chris, so delicious :)

Perhaps even more delicious Chris, is the fact you didn't even mention the breath quotes, which so clearly & obviously has affected you, you have no response to, no defence.....no comment. Except this, of course:

https://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/pranayama-and-sikhi.8162/

I find it strange that you (MBW) took all those quotes I typed up, then copied & pasted them to a Sikhi forum hoping to get some rationalisation for the obvious contradiction with the RS teachings.........but never really commented much on them on the RSS forum.....or here?

Is it because these quotes are incontrovertible proof that your self-buttressing beliefs in Radhasoami dogma are erroneous, factually speaking?

You accuse me of "deception by omission". Do you not see it Chris? This whole comment by you is a projection of the unarguable FACT that RSSB deceives by omission when it comes to the meditation practices of the Granth Sahib Sants & breath control. That, sir, is plain as day.

Hi Spence! Unfortunately I fear you have fallen into a similar dogmatically based assumption and projection as Chris has above.

You write: "Now, one's experience is personal, so you may really believe in Pranayam, which is really body energy and can be great for the body and mind, done right.

But space travel is a different thing."

No, sorry. I don't practice pranayama. I am simply providing people with DIRECT quotes from Nanak, Kabir and numerous respected other "Sants". Your argument appears to be with them, not me? Please don't project! Truth is truth, WHATEVER I believe in or practice personally. They clearly claim shabd absorption is achieved via breath control. Not me, NANAK, KABIR ETC

Also, I understand very well the dogma and claims made by RS surrounding their practice, and you repeat it here. I question your overall capability to advise me on "space travel" (one could, for example, look at the root of the corrupted claims in RS dogma that it is the "fastest path", because the original teachings they have corrupted say the "non-dual" path is the fastest path. People can read Nisargadatta's teacher Siddharameshwar on the topic of the path of the ant, spider and bird for eg). But that is not the point. The point is the words of the mystics of the Granth Sahib themselves. They are clear. They are unambiguous.

You may know better than Kabir & Nanak etc on how to achieve space travel Spence, that may be so. You may well be able to advise me on achieving deeper states of meditation and consciousness, that may be so. But you'll forgive for not personally finding either a very plausible likelihood :)

It is always a good idea to not conflate dogmatic beliefs with reality, because then we start projecting our mistaken ideas upon reality, and see no difference between the two. Both Chris and Spence have provided a wonderful demonstration of how this works, above. Watch and learn people!!

[Spence Tepper]

Oops, I apologize Brian Ji, I thought I'd left the above commentary on meditation on the Open Thread page, and not here, where it isn't appropriate. Please move or delete as per your best judgment.
Thanks
Spence

[Chris]

A translation of the comment mentioned above, from the author of DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB who interviewed Guru Hargobind and his son Guru Har Rai (sixth and seventh sikgurus and son and grandson of Guru Arjan) is as follows:

“Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak.”

Later followers used Nanak's hymn on "flesh" — directed at religious sects justifying anti-social segregation and egocentric superior attitudes — to justify eating slaughtered animals. The seventeenth-century statement above is just one among many that clarifies the sikh gurus' approach to meat-eating. There are of course many quotes in the Adi Granth that support this prohibition of eating animals, birds and fish. I quoted this quote from a contemporary and independent source as I regard it as conclusive.

I could also provide similar info on the Sikh gurus attitude to pranayama, but I like Spence's answer on that above.

Whatever mystics of the past thought and taught, and whatever contemporary spiritual 'leaders' say and do, the primary principle in all this discussion and analysis must be how we behave, how we treat others — whether fellow humans or fellow creatures, how we use the gift of consciousness in a human body.

I wish everyone success in using human life to its highest and fullest capacity.

[Chy]

Interesting blog here this one. I just found it.
Really enjoy the educated comments here holds my attention gets me thinking. Dont appreciate some of the comments on other blogs with just poorly spelled words . sometimes too many cuss words and people bashing.

One of my wishes and as yet my genii is always in the hospital needing recharge the wishes have spilled over and he blasts me with rejections to my nondestiny for this incarnation demands. Poor guy he tries to make it all better filling all my desires.

Anyway in these moments of replaying some of m. Charans satsangs ,there is a message here pals.
Just love the inner master and do the meditation and forget about all of it . When we die the good lord will take us home and its very simple. We dont have to worry what shabd level weve achieved or what we see or where we go and get discouraged. Just love the INNER MASTER pay attention to that being ( meditation) and leave the rest to the lord....
This may be at this point all we need to do dear travellers. Just this moments thoughts..
Chy

[Radha]

Baba ji plz Pay all the Money demanded... Taken or Not taken...
🇮🇳Pay every single Penney🇮🇳 For the sake of ur Nation’s धरोहर....🇮🇳
🕉 Even If Not taken.....
Still kindly pay to the CO. to save your Guru’s grandchildren🌾
Pay for the sake of self For Sangat’s 🇮🇳Trust & for all
कथनी को करनी कर ☀️स तोहमतों से बाहर आ जांवें जी 🎺