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July 09, 2019


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Worldly Music ca do it somewhat tooo

Hail Kal-Mephisto but not to long!



Jesse - ditto Manjit. Btw - 2.5 press-ups/hour! Such cheek! For that I’ve just done 70, followed by several rounds of alternate nostril breathing, some bellows breaths, then a nauli kriya …..:-)

Had a quick peruse of the latest New Scientist yesterday - contains an interview with James Lovelock (Gaia hypothesis) who has just turned 100. He didn’t seem too concerned about the state of the planet and was talking about the Novacene (I think that’s the term) - essentially humans co-evolving with machines.

Mary - really enjoyed your latest post - a well written good summary of how many of us here view RSSB these days imo.

Blessed are the vegan cheese makers!


Page 34: The extreme subtleties of the law. The law of karma is inexorable and subtle beyond our imagination. For example, even if we are party to someone else’s dishonourable actions, we too are culpable as an accessory to the suffering caused.

Telling the King that HE cannot piss in a corner of the street, HIS Street!

Even for a minor disciple HE replaces a SuperNova, a Galaxy, Many. . . .
without Mephist being aware

He Gives to One and takes from Another
This is ALL HIS clever deception. (Granth)

777 (. First class manmukh with some Love )


"I should have added that this is only my own anecdotal report from my own years of practice. Think of it as a summary of my daily log of meditation practice and results. "

Spence, if you're talking about your personal experience, why repeat verbatim from sant mat books? If I just sat down and started meditating, it's doubtful that I'd come to the conclusion alone that my consciousness was already at the top of my head, and that from there I needed to "go up" farther. A lot of systems of meditation make very good points as to why you shouldn't do that, actually. It's not a given that one just needs to "go super high" right away. Whatever that even means.

I've never read the entirety of the Philokalia, but of what I have read, Mark the Monk/Ascetic was by far the most interesting and useful. I considered joining the Orthodox Church because of him alone, but thankfully I wasn't sucked into that world by old writers and byzantian priests censing the congregation with their cedar and sap incenses. They certainly have a beautiful liturgy, and the overall solemnity of the rituals is something many eastern religions could learn from.

Unfortunately when listening to more recent interviews by Kalistos Ware makes me think it's highly unlikely he's capable of finishing the Philokalia translations if he hasn't already. The 5th book will either have to remain unpublished, or finished by the other members of the team.

And speaking of chakras and whatnot, those Hesychasts and other Christian meditators all thought that the heart was the highest place,as do Muslims. I'm not convinced by the RS explanation that they simply weren't as developed or enlightened as those who "make it to the eye center." I just think they come from different backgrounds and have different systems. Different goals and different gods even.

And though the Hesychasts offered techniques, I remember reading in the Philokalia that one should only adopt a technique that he was already doing somewhat naturally. Things like inhaling while saying the first part of the Jesus prayer, and exhaling while saying the "have mercy on me" part, or lowering ones chin into his chest when meditating. The primary concern of theirs seemed to be that of realizing St Paul's instruction to ceaselessly pray and nothing else. Mystical experience happened, but wasn't sought, and certainly wasn't considered a good thing all on its own. Modern day Christian saints like Paisios warned that most of those experiences were demonic and satanic. He was a mount Athos monk.

Philokalia and how its authors are portrayed is another great example that displays how groups like RSSB conveniently cherry pick from other religions at best, and outright distort and misrepresent them at the worst. The incantation of "all religions and mystics teach the same thing" looks absurd when you remove your head from John Davidson's world and go to the sources themselves. I do think Davidson's books are great actually, but they serve a purpose, and I'm not 100% convinced that that purpose is as respectable or honest as I once did.

Hi Brian Ji
A few months ago we discussed gravity. The hard sciences still don't actually know what it is... And this new article doe a nice job in Lay terms, explaining what every physicist knows


Hi Jesse
You asked and commented
"Spence, if you're talking about your personal experience, why repeat verbatim from sant mat books? If I just sat down and started meditating, it's doubtful that I'd come to the conclusion alone that my consciousness was already at the top of my head, and that from there I needed to "go up" farther. A lot of systems of meditation make very good points as to why you shouldn't do that, actually. It's not a given that one just needs to "go super high" right away. Whatever that even means."

Yes, that's my experience. It comes from having tried different practices. I went to some length to explain internal vs external locus of attention, which has had some reporting in meditating research.

Basically, what you focus your attention on, if it comes from some external stimuli, becomes conditioned to that stimuli.

So that's why some long term mediators do better without biofeedback. And why pranayam and other asanas have their built in limitations. Like the hull design of a boat, there is a physical limit to the velocity that each hull can tolerate, where adding more horsepower does not change the speed at all, but simply puts more stress, torsion on the hull.

My personal experiences verify this all the time. If I relax listening to a great guided meditation, I have to pull my attention completely off that in order to focus on internal Shabd, and that is work, because now my mind has enjoyed the guided meditating and is thinking about that and thoughts generated around that.

So now that becomes another layer I have to get my focus over. I have to withdraw from it to get "over" it

It's not complicated. You discover it repeated practice.

When you have a greater experience, that becomes the goal and benchmark. Then you can test to see what practices help you return there and which, however nice, even if they help calm and focus the mind, become a pleasure, a conditioned response, a connection, an attachment, that then becomes an obstacle to a higher experience.

Higher, meaning a level of direct understanding that doesn't require thought. The thought and the thing are one and an immediate experience. And that is sheer joy as well.

So experiencing that, then that becomes our goal.

"that's my experience"

Oh it is?

"that's why some long term mediators do better without biofeedback"

Better? Better at what, for who, in what context? Just "better"? Later you define "higher," but is that thoughtless, higher perception "better" for anything?

"pranayam and other asanas have their built in limitations"

Some practitioners describe pretty much identical experiences to any other form of meditation or yoga including RS meditation.

That includes the supposed higher perceptions, which are obviously not very reliable because everyone is scrambling to use their brain to discover Gurinders maleficence, and not any 6th sense.

"My personal experiences verify this all the time. If I relax listening to a great guided meditation, I have to pull my attention completely off that in order to focus on internal Shabd"

Maybe this is why other forms of meditation don't work for you. When you try to perform them, your RS habits kick in and you fail to follow through. If the guided meditation isn't about shabd, why are you superimposing your beliefs and preferences onto it?

People report amazing experiences at vipassana retreats. One of the first things the vipassana instructions tell you is to follow the meditation and to not do your own mantras, focus on your gods, or pretty much do anything that isn't vipassana. If you went there and started trying to focus on shabd, how would your experience speak to vipassana?

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"Maybe this is why other forms of meditation don't work for you. When you try to perform them, your RS habits kick in and you fail to follow through. If the guided meditation isn't about shabd, why are you superimposing your beliefs and preferences onto it?"

" People report amazing experiences at vipassana retreats. One of the first things the vipassana instructions tell you is to follow the meditation and to not do your own mantras, focus on your gods, or pretty much do anything that isn't vipassana. If you went there and started trying to focus on shabd, how would your experience speak to vipassana?"

But Jesse, 'following the meditation' as you write, and by your own logic, could also just be following your mind. Could also be placebo effect.. In any practice. This is why you journal and review your own results. Your beliefs and practice should align. They will align in time. But whether you become more objective or less may reflect the effects of your practice.

You quoted me...
" "that's why some long term mediators do better without biofeedback"
Then asked...
"Better? Better at what, for who, in what context"

Better at producing Alpha, deep states of meditation, better in terms of their self - reported results... ... Other Measurable benefits....

Here's a good article about the similarity between meditation and biofeedback.... Both methods produce measurable results. But as the article notes, it isn't one size fits all.


Here's an interesting study of Vipassana practitioners over time and how their goals and beliefs change. They start looking for self regulation and with a high proportion of belief in Atheism. and as they progress over the years that mix changes, so that those who have meditated for years tend to have a belief in something higher, and a higher proportion have the goal of liberation, with much less having a goal of self - regulation.


Now, this last review isn't an experimental study. It's a well conducted comparison survey.

What that means is that people who engage in Vipassana for many years may not become more religious, spiritual or liberated.

It may just mean that those people already so inclined stick with it, and those with interests in self - regulation, or who tended to Atheism initially left it after a while, and so a smaller proportion of, say, atheists interested in self - regulation, wind up among a random sampling of long term Vipassana practitioners.... Or indeed some level of internal experience may have changed them. We can't tell that from a survey study.

Again, anecdotal accounts aren't going to lead you to the right path.

That I hear Shabd and listening to it brings me amazing peace, understanding and experience makes me naturally suited to the meditation.

But you can't say the meditation connected me to Shabd or gave me that predisposition. That's been there all along, from childhood. But the meditation helped me control that experience, deepened v that experience.

So my journal reflects my condition. In that you are right. But the practice and results help me to optimize progress along the dimensions I've chosen, my goals, and understanding of what helps me make personal progress.

But reporting my progress and findings may help others... Either to see the limitations of my interpretations, or to see how they might apply to themselves.

Similarly, reading the writings of others and more current meditation n research helps me place my experience into a more objective context.

And that goes for your experience, too, Jesse. It's not a matter of reading restaurant reviews. On that basis you go to a restaurant and try the meal for yourself. That's crucial. As your can see here different people have different results and naturally make different decisions. All that honors both objective and subjective Truth.

Hi Brian Ji
A few months ago we discussed gravity.

Nice article Jesse
about how Brian manufactured all these powers

More plausible that Brian did all that than a . . . 'nobody'


Perhaps now in this blog Brian can explain Why he did it

@ 777. Hello

Is God insecure that he wants us to worship him? He appears to be a saddist - enjoying h watching suffering. Are we sure that these so called Gurus are not the Anti christ???

I am pretty sure that God is just a figment of our imagination - nothing has ever been proved. We could go on...

None of those studies are about radha soamis yoga techniques so there's no basis of comparison in that regard. Maybe meditating on the guru and his sounds and disco lights more often than not diminishes alpha brain waves.

But whatever. If you like doing something, I guess go ahead and do it. It's just weird to read truth claims from all angles. I believe none of them.

And 777, I posted no article that I remember. Maybe you're thinking of the one Spence posted about gravity.

Hi Jesse
You wrote
"None of those studies are about radha soamis yoga techniques so there's no basis of comparison in that regard."

You had mentioned Vipassana, and the study was interesting, hence why I d raised it for iscussion.

As for the Sant Mat method, or any method, these are all artificial creations to build on what is natural within you. There are schools of self - defense, running, ballet, hatha yoga, bicycling, ballroom dancing, tap dancing, weight lifting, swimming. They all have different uses, but they all build on what is natural in the human body. Some ask the participant to move in ways that may not be the healthiest for some purpose or design of that art. Some become competitive fields and then there is drug abuse around that.

But as individual practices, they, generally, improve health in some way. To ask which provides the best health may depend upon the practitioner.

That they all have some positive effect can be seen in the practitioners themselves.

We should all practice something in terms of meditation. The human brain benrfits from it just like physical exercise.

What is your current practice? And what are your current results?

"What is your current practice? And what are your current results? "

I don't believe in meditation. Stopped doing it years ago. I don't think it's necessarily beneficial (and we can all find studies to back up any side of anything) or the equivalent to physical exercise. It's more like the equivalent to standing there and trying hard to be as still as possible.

The results are that I don't meditate or care about doing so. I consider it a success.

Osho Robbins is right about people generally lying, but the expectations of how much is socially acceptable, when one can lie, and for what purposes varies from culture to culture, and person to person. It's actually a really interesting thing to think about, even as depressing as the inevitable outcomes will be from modern man's obsession with global nomadism and the breakdown of culture through dispersion for the benefit of corporations or worse.

Autistic adherence to the ideal of honesty, even when it's essentially impossible or dangerous, seems to be a product of Protestantism, though it infects all Christians to some degree. Christianity pretends to practice or believe in an absolute, unwavering moral code, but I don't even think that's a biblical idea being that the bible is a mess of contradictions. Paul alone probably contradicted himself 100 times. It's more the way in which Christians tended to present themselves and their ideas to would be converts (victims), but with ulterior and somewhat imperialistic motives. Moral absolutism tends to resonate with most populations until they realize it's all b.s. and that the presentation wasn't the same as the product.

In a more "eastern" view of things, lying is just a tool of humanity required in certain circumstances and an inescapable part of being alive. Alan Watts has talked about the "eastern" view a lot. To the Christian, lying is part of a hypocritical system that is used by the powerful to shame or guilt the less powerful when they're caught. Even in Orthodoxy you never hear of the priestly class being disciplined for things that lay people would likely be excommunicated for. "All have sinned and we all fall short of the glory of God" but action is only taken against some, since you simply can't understand the pressures the clergy face, and who is powerful enough to unseat a bishop anyway?

Humans are ridiculous creatures. We should all consider getting lobotomies to solve these issues once and for all.

and first said Kal was merciless and then projected this on Gurinder

"""""" GSD is quite literally the anti-Christ in the sense that he stands against everything Jesus taught. I’m not religious but I find his “no mercy” stance remarkable.
Posted by: Sonya | August 04, 2019 at 11:47 PM""""""""

It is not only in meditation - as collateral joy
but also just in life that miracles or real Revelations are happening

A year ago I had a small contact with a Romanian girl
addicted to cocaine etc
had had a very unpleasant life I will spare you
I could communicate a little bit - my bad English versus hers

and suddenly
took her place
it is very difficult to explain but HE was in her as it were

HE smiled as always and then HE changed in the form of
BABAJI GURINDER who said to me: "Help Her"

Next ( just in waking consciousness ) my attention-consciousness-Lifeforce
speeded UP to my crane where the crown is
First, you feel itching at the hair, next it expands to one of the forms of
consciousness we are more than our flesh

Next I saw how this miserable girl was an empress, so Great in Power
such a Glance and Radiation form , really majestic,
and how She reigned over myriads of causal world and difficult to
explain but She still reigned over so much that exists
in so enormous Glory that all music from the Earth is a tiny thing - compared

Also, I saw/felt/experienced how easy and natural all this was 4 her

Next, I understood that her position was and is what Catholics call
Those are Jeevas (Soul+Ego) that do creating - Those are so much Higher
than Arch Angels
Seth Shiv's 4th region
There are innumerable of such forces above the measureless void

Of course, I thought about karma and how we will err most of the time
when judging
The most miserable human we meet might be of Royal blood
in fact, we all are

"Help Her"
So I did, and a series of unbelievable Serendipities happened
over the past year

A satsangi in Dehli found for me the only Romanian book
( wow there are phrases of Mr Brian Hines in it from his book: 'Life is fair' or something like that )

I did send that
Now she lives in England, to my big surprise although I always thought
and has contacts with Sikh people
and I hope for the best, . . no, . . Im sure of the best to follow

I tell this because of the attacks on BBJ
If you all knew what his position is, you all would start crying
from now on up to your last breath

With Sweet Love and Sweet Sound


@Axrjuna said
Think man! Its priceless

and asked me some above

You are the doer, the sadist, and all that happens in your life
Read my last Post - She wants so much go to the Highest
and it's only possible in our form
All what rest is bullshit
She had to balance karmas -just that - we all have too ( or not )

What I didn't understand was : How can she act here and still be in Power
I think Saints do that too
You think Gurinder knew - I think he was listening to the Sound


For You Arjuna, it is the same

Hi 777
We all canme from a much higher place,

"Tell me boy, where are these other past Indras you dare claim to be Indras, For I am He, and He only!"

And pointing at the trail of matching ants the boy Krishna laughed and quietly sighed,

"!ndras all!"

777 are you saying a Romanian coke head is actually a god, and that being a god, she still needed some RSSB books?

Maybe when your imagination of Gurinder asked you to help her he meant by feeding her or something. Not proselytizing like an evengelical.

Well, 777, can you explain some purpose behind Baba Ji's money controversies?


Study economic situations like QE and negative interest -
Study gold (physical)
Study the >>exponential climate effects
like siberian/alaskan methane

After so long on this blog, you don't know that imagination after Love
is the greatest force? (Einstein)
Calm down and be happy
Study yr karma

He wants to wreck the planet and enslave the puny Earthlings?

777. I have no one in this world. If I died tomorrow no body would even notice i have gone.

Please Gurinder was not listening to sound when he walked past me at Haynes - he was judging me. He was the Doer who said nothing and I was Doer who wanted him to say hey son you ok?

I don't agree with you my heart was open but you wouldn't understand and you don't k ow me why I got initiation beats me.

He cant preach to us that we should live honest lives- does he. It his loved ones???? Lool at his loved ones and see how honest they are.

Brother you don't need Kundalini powers to know - it's written all over their faces. People like me who just wanted a bit of love were the fools. Not them. They probably read this blog with a glass of whiskey and think - what a bunch of Twats (idiots). Peace be upon you 777

Hi Arjuna, many of us are loners. Wish I could give you a hug and tell you that you are important and a lovely human being. Don't worry too much about being alone. I think it makes us stronger human beings when we live alone.

After living in three countries and nine towns I don't particularly feel like I belong anywhere, which is quite freeing in some ways. I don't have any long standing friends and the only people in the world who are my strongest companions are my three sons and we live in different cities but have long chats on the phone.

Just wanted to wish you well and about Gurinder, I just think that he is simply doing what he can to the best of his ability.

@ jen. Hello

I just want to get to know God. So many false starts and fighting this all alone.

Big hug back and x

Hi Arjuna, many of us are loners. Wish I could give you a hug and tell you that you are important and a lovely human being.

We should start a "loners" sub-club on CofC. Anyone's
free to join. Virtual hugs likewise free. As of now, we'll
be the "Three Amigo's", a very exclusive group.

Hey, there may be another connection. S. Africa... or
at least Africa? I was in Jo'burg in early 80's. I heard
Maharaji whisper "Oh, God" at the sight of chocolate

Gurinder was not listening to sound when he walked past me

me: How do U know?

So, you live in UK
His BANG gaze might be the best ever occurred to you
Such instances HE sees everything ever happened in your myriad incarnations.
He might have thought : How ever did hé come here and "judged" which karmas HE should carry for You
Because in these comments of U , I understood you are a special case. ........... :-)

Double Simran 48/7 can help - it helps 4everything

Tell somebody to send a message here in case you did die
would be nice to know


While writing I thought why is he (U) loving nobody in the world? Strange to say

Jen, a religious person, in my view, is someone who elevates blind faith above open-eyed recognition of reality.

Brian I would start with the semantics of circulair reasoning

Here comes a simple example:

A: Jesus is God
A: It's in the Holy Book
B Why you know it's Holy
A: Jesus said it

Cheers this time

You are on this blog about the first using false arguments ( like 1*0=1 ) and uncomplete articles and declarations
next agitating build a whole series of books on that


Ashtavakra (Sanskrit: अष्टावक्रः, IAST Aṣṭāvakra) is a revered Vedic sage in Hinduism.

These texts noted by oshorobbins
go up to Braham ParBrahm

They see the void "MahaSunna" as the Creator

Hardly is mentioned : LOVE
help a mouse cross the street upon the Force from
"May the Force be with You" further than all Creation

Each of us IS THAT



777 you're still pretending that you know something as you cite syncretic RS texts. Do you not understand that "my god is higher than yours" was just a gimmick?

777, you say: "Jen, a religious person, in my view, is someone who elevates blind faith above open-eyed recognition of reality."

If you are talking about me you couldn't be more wrong. I've never been a "religious person" and I don't have "blind faith".

Reality? My practice is embracing life fully in the present moment.

Hi 777,

Just realised you were quoting Brian's words. Ah well, thats my answer to his judgment of who and what I am!

Oh God!
You are all strange!

Posted by: Meditator | August 08, 2019 at 09:01 PM

You must be real old

You give credence to the information some months
ago from Phil UK
His grandfather gave 10 million to Gurinder to use
as He thought fine , . . . rssb or private

In practice of course for tax reasons, the foundation got it

Phil suggested then that the Mohans were poor almost
but the idea to make cheap medicine clones ( generics) after patents ended
with Religare was super
and Gurinder must have lent these millions to Mohan
Phil could check all this with a simple telephone call

But I wouldn’t - I think HE wouldn’t. - Why He would?

There must have been a promise to give these moneys back to RSSB or Gurinder with interest
plus half of the profits

That's how Gurinder never took a penny from someone!

Thanks to JUAN we know that the Spanish Salary was GIVEN not TAKEN

My English is just enough to idiomatically feel that the word TAKEN is an euphemism

For STOLEN and HE used that word in California

But he might have taken some from unethical companies, to say it softly
and so even Kal must agree: no karma!
Me: 7, I hate that agreement with Kal but I'm unable to judge, . . canceling
the agreement would produce total havoc

Further, i have zero confidence in the FDA and the so-called traitor whistleblower
who got 15 million or so

Of course, the SHI&MALvinder boys were a giant pain in the ass of the former patent holders Pharma Giants !

At last
Daiichi sold the company to SUN for the double $$$ almost!

How then can the arbiter have judged as he did?


Brian, now you can use the time that left, allotted to you by doing Simran
After 'death' in other circumstances, U can too
but U will hate to be an analphabetic in a strange country



"For this reason I have created Kal, . .
because without Kal, Man has no fear"

(RS Beas Sar Bachan Poetry translated by Tek Puri, Ishwars pappa)

Some people long for their original State of Pure Love without misjogge

Me7 , I have to be born soon, so I don't have that desire

But how to love a phenomenon so far away and you have never seen That
How to Love THAT, . . U have only tiny memories

This is the Greatness of a Saint SatGuru, . . if it's 4U; . . You might love HIM

Many 7 chakra beings around, . . few take this chance TO BECOME HIM BY LOVE

before this planet will be out of service for a long time


@777 If he was using 'taken' in the sense of stolen, then why did he say he has only taken money from his parents?

Intrigued by initiation
I investigated the insight of introspective invitation
The multiple mysteries of mystical masters mainly mumbling
Reducing reality rapaciously rendering related research reprehensible
Originally Oneness overcame overall overrated outthinking
Ancient wisdoms are written anecdotes wherever avatars watchfulness awaits
Thus saith the sayer

@ 777 it's all a mess .

As He can steal so can we. That's what you are saying.

There are no master a I keep telling you. No one has seen anything within. It's all the brain.

Sorry don't buy it. It's a con and its bigger than madoff!!!!!

I took a cup of coffeeat PJ's, before taking the courage to
take the thieves pistol. . . . hééé. I'm not english

Hééé. UK, US, SA, Indian readers do some work . . . OMG


My favorite song :
"I took a trip on the train, . . and I thought about YOU "

"Sorry don't buy it. It's a con and its bigger than madoff!!!!!"

Arjun, I too think Gurinder is in on some shady business and I don't believe that he's god.

But out of curiosity, what would you do if new compelling evidence came out exhonerating him and showing that he wasn't intentionally or personally involved in any scandalous activity?

@ Jesse hello

If he was proved innocent- dont see that happening as he and cronies like luxury. And reading the book Bottle of Lies - has convinced me that the whole family business was shady as fuck.

I would still go out to the bar as I am doing tonight in a bit and get drunk. If God wants me - come and get me! As I'm done.

What would you do?

Nothing would change for me, Arjun. Whether he's he's guilty or innocent, I don't much care.

Jesse - Good response.

Too much water has passed under the bridge....

Arjuna, I just finished that book last night. What a cluster f*ck that was. Unbelievable fraud by not just these Singh brothers but the entire generic Indian drug pharma's. FDA are bloody clueless as well. Buy name brand if you can. Holy shit!

Also of note: When the director of Ranbaxy presented the paperwork to the board of all the criminality and fraud taking place, the author mentions that the people on the board with Malvinder were mostly RSSB related. One of them was Dr. PS Joshi. He's a Cardiologist who used to treat Charan Singh and also treats GSD. So this Joshi and other RSSB board members were there at the meeting when the board was presented with these findings, but they ignored them and continued on.

How could a doctor be complicit in the manufacture of bad drugs, and still keep the patient's welfare in mind. Goes against their oath doesn't it? I bet he never administered Ranbaxy drugs to his "good" patients.
Outrageous findings.

The author also mentioned in the book that Malvinder's spiritual group (RSSB) was represented in the board of directors along with Malvinder. So RSSB members were complicit in this, because the test data was being manipulated or almost entirely fabricated to meet FDA approvals.

Excellent book on the inner workings of the drug industry.

I'll third that. As soon as I read Jim's quotes from his 69 quips in the Dera, I knew it was over. Then the other non-GIHF quotes kept coming, then the Sheena book, all aside from the financial affair.

I remember this video concerning me as well, as he seems to have a completely different demeanour here, but that might be me projecting.


I still believe in the meditation though, but the purpose of life is this area has gone for me.

@ Amar hello

Yes it's a scary book . What concerns me if GSD knew about that company from where his family took the money. How far does the rabbit hole go.

And more importantly how many people died as a result. I am watching a documentary on Netflix called Family (about how a group believing in christ control true power with the rich, politicians and dictators etc). Check it out as it makes me think that RSSB may be on a similar road perhaps not with power over dictators but who knows.

Going back to the book yes the board of RSSB knew. Corrupt as hell.

They need to be challenged. All this is going to explode in the open and I wonder how RSSB peeps will react.

but that might be me projecting

The only way you can starting judging
Stop your thoughts, if you can
Try One minute

Thoughts make you their slaves
and all you think is wrong


Have any of you read the comments on the "I Hate Church of the Churchless" thread, be careful, its kinda scary lol...

Brian says: "I've always wanted to feel like a celebrity and have a stalker. Now I've got one. Just via the Internet, but, hey, better than nothing. It feeds my ego (assuming I still have one) that someone is so obsessed like little old me."

I wonder if Brian hates me because I was born in South Africa like Ashy? Ashy's comments make me laugh, check them out.

Okay, just one more comment and then I'll leave. I know Ashy sounds completely off the planet if anyone's bothered to read that thread.

I've experienced racism. I have British Ancestry, white skin, blonde hair, and when we left SA and moved to New Zealand I was confronted with "If I knew you were from South Africa I would not have spoken to you", also another person said to me "I hate South Africans".

There are many different types of racism although because of political correctness nowadays people may not be as blunt as before. It is damaging when we are judged by strangers and thats probably why I became a loner. Okay, over and out.

I think Georgy Porgy once said he hangs with Ashy at a different site. Did he ever mention where?

Jen, did you ever know any victims of those super brutal farm attacks that I've been reading about for about a decade now? It's one of the scariest things happening on earth, and yet world news largely ignores, or worse, excuses and justifies it.

777. I have no one in this world. If I died tomorrow no body would even notice i have gone.- Arjuna

Don't be so assuming.
We at churchless will notice.
Every so often someone will write
"Hey, not heard from Arjuna for a while"

And someone else will say

"Yeah, I think he is dead, happens to the best of us"

And someone else will write

"Fucking hell, really? Dead?
You mean dead as a dodo?
Well I better get on and meditate before I die too. "

So you see your life was not lived in vain. You served a purpose.

Hi Jesse, I don't know any of the victims but I do subscribe to a few people on youtube and hear about the terrible things going on with the farm murders, so depressing. Very lucky to have escaped that country. Of course the news ignore it and blame the whites for everything and its only going to get worse. Very sad.

Jesse, found this article...


August 8, 2019

"South Africa has long had a serious problem with crime. The murder rate is 36 per 100,000, meaning 57 people are murdered each day, placing South Africa’s homicide rate just behind that of countries now at war."

"If I knew you were from South Africa I would not have spoken to you", also another person said to me "I hate South Africans".

South African satsangis were wonderfully friendly and genuine
when I was there. Political correctness has become the blunt
instrument of the "thought police".

@ Osho hello brother. Still alive and kicking. Just come back from the boxing gym.

Are you going to haynes this weekend?

What book?


Bottle of Lies: The Inside Story of the Generic Drug Boom

Book by Katherine Eban


None of them "left their body" using the "five holy names" and went to "sach khand"
Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 09, 2019 at 09:21 PM

I did
It's natural
Keep the backbone straight and do love


@ 777
The Serpent snake will rise


Good point
Yes, it did, . . 49 years ago, quite nasty

Have U ever seen a comment of mine
giving U a feel that I am not extremely happy?


@ 777. Not sure what I feel when I read comments .

So the kundalini . You know events yet to come as a result.

Have you ever seen a tree on the mountain yet?

Sorry 4my english
-apparently it was not clear enough (about Osho's remark)
that this happend Long ago and that yes
after brilliant meditations
we are less and less invited to make changes in creation as it is
Even the Almighty invites the Saints & their disciples to find imperfections
( saay . there is a complaint box :-)

Apparently the mind, neither the serpent , knows
that the Giant Love (6 regions higher) includes the certainity that everything in creation is perfect,
extremely perfect


In short,
all methods other than Love fall short
love strong as when we were 14 and had a crush
you cannot eat, cannot sleep
That kind

and sorry everybodynice bloggers , . . you can only produce that for a human
not for a stone, a spirit, . . not even The Holy Spirit

Who doesn't have it . . . beg for it. . . . each minute

Other methods are just to difficult PLUS
We, Humans are constructed for Love ( alas that implies hate too )
Who doesn't want, join . . . ?


Hi Dungeness,

Yes, I loved the South African satsangis and I enjoyed satsang very much. I was over sensitive when we moved to NZ and now have adjusted to the bluntness of some people. Had to toughen up when living in Australia as well and changed my accent very quickly and don't speak about where I was born. Remind myself every day how lucky I am living in a beautiful and safe environment. Hope it lasts.

@ 777

You talk about the Almighty as Love . I never saw any love at Haynes Park UK centre. People went their for their own reasons. Build networks . Show off their cars. Kiss ass. Mary their sons and daughters off.

Sorry don't buy it. This Almighty God sounds like a Twat !!! Insecure too. Why doesn't he want our Love??? Get a life is what I say to him.

Hi 777
You wrote
"In short,
all methods other than Love fall short
love strong as when we were 14 and had a crush
you cannot eat, cannot sleep
That kind

and sorry everybodynice bloggers , . . you can only produce that for a human
not for a stone, a spirit, . . not even The Holy Spirit

Who doesn't have it . . . beg for it. . . . each minute

Other methods are just to difficult PLUS
We, Humans are constructed for Love ( alas that implies hate too )
Who doesn't want, join . . . ?"

Become zero, 777, and the whole creation is a gushing, fusing sea of passion where every vacuum is an injury, a loneliness the entire creation is wounded by, and rushes at once to embrace, to heal, to fill.

@those not understanding yet



@ 777

Babaji once said that if you tell me that a man understands what this is. I wont believe him. I am more likely to believe the man who says he has drunk the worlds oceans.

Tell me what are we not understanding if the big man says it is impossible to understand.

Ps do you know what a Demiurge is?

For Georgy...and others as well.
I often wondered about beings on other planets and their connection to shabd possibilities...ALIENS to say for clarity.
Never heard and several people tried to get this answered never could get a straight answer from the Dera over the years ...it was always !! sidestepped.

Recently I heard a tape of Ishwar Puri guruji here in the states AND to my best recollection and understanding...he answered the question to the effect that it is only in the HUMAN FORM do we have this opportunity to connect to go home...all other species in the physical universe and uninitiated on other dimensions no go including angels cannot connect. They must incarnate into a human form....
So another dilemma for everyone to consider.
In case you dont know who Ishwar Puri ji is some long term satsangi you may know or another person on the blog may if requested...... explain his credentials to you...quite substantial man he is..

On one trip to Dera In the late 70s I spent a lot of time with White and Indian satsangiis from south africa...i have lovely memories and we had some adventures. Yes many Indians living in India do not like SAfricans and my tagging along with them on trips outside Dera I was included in the bigotry...didnt matter we just rolled with the punches and the SA people there were very devoted satsangis at that time Sam Busa was there as well.
Very lovely warm friendly people.
I live in southwestern USA am a loner its easier...but love a good chat...
Outside of being with SAfricans no issues for me with Indians the story changed when I was not tied up with SAfricans..... Loved India...
Anyway Jen wow youve lived there and now NZ lucky lady another gorgeous place. Good karma ...

Anyway perhaps we all are little buddhas metaphorically buddhas of energy just getting through our lives here and will return to the pure essence not some religious dogma style and empty answers to satisfy the mental knots we get in momentarily and need a bandaid relief answer from our chosen religion to get past the knot.
When the knot loosens and it only loosens when we grab ut toss it out and let go of the issue causing the disturbance. Dont try to resolve it just visually let it go see yourself as a shining light force in the universe not in the form of a soul or deity or with another being guiding you. Just be and the knot will dissolve and you bypass dogmatic methods of thinking and thinking those old ways will solve your issue.
We really are not any of these old pagan views of deities gods goddesses and the like.
We are charged with a life force that has no form and definition. Thats for here on earth and until we can accept that and the fear of letting go of the need to be a form or see forms of others in spirit until we can just be an electrical charge and nothing more to fill an ego void we will not get much past the ancient idol worshippers with gods and temples...
Radiant forms are very much like this...forms our mind needs to create to justify our existence in the universe.
To feel secure and that one has a place.
In electrical charge thoughts there is no ego there is no deity to define just energy at varied frequencies.

""all other species in the physical universe and uninitiated on other dimensions no go including angels cannot connect. They must incarnate into a human form....""

All what "is" must eventually use the Crown Chakra Matrix


Please don' call my Master Charan names


Read the Song
The proof is automatically transfer all worldly Love Songs to Your Master!


I never spoke about understanding or IQ
I spoke only about Love and Being That


Strange Arjuna
In one phrase you refer to Gurinder after scolding HIM the same breath!

#RSSB buying some lands

50° heat generally to come without water & food
Things will become worse than the following
The 8 meter mentioned is a giant joke and the 1,5° C too


Simon Wally. - Extinction Rebellion

In just 11 years, our civilization, which has taken 4.5 billion years of Earthly evolution, will likely have signed its death warrant. Our climate is changing. Our atmosphere and oceans are warming.
Species are becoming extinct at 10,000 times the normal rate. Dozens of species are lost every single day. By 2050, between 30-50% of all species will have disappeared. We will crash through 1.5C of warming since pre-industrialization, and be well on our way to runaway climate change. The latest Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC)report described the conditions awaiting humanity if we fail to act by 2030.
Hundreds of millions will suffer from extreme heat, lack of food and water, and possible war like conditions as governments struggle to keep control.
And this report wasn’t even the worst case scenario.

More alarming reports have included the dreaded positive feedback loops into their models. The most worrying feedback loop is the mass melting of the Arctic permafrost and up to 8 meters of sea level rise. The permafrost is of particular concern to scientists, and it should be to us all. Under the frozen ground, rests 205 gigatons of methane. Methane is 30 times more potent that CO2. If this methane escapes into the atmosphere, any future attempts at mitigation will likely prove futile.
Sea levels will rise, available land for growing food will decrease as a result. Water is becoming scarce already, but with warmer temperatures, water will evaporate more rapidly. This will increase moisture levels in the atmosphere and fuel super strength storms. All this will be happening as billions of humans are added to the population. More people with less food, water and land, but increased temperatures, super storms and increased risk of disease.
Japan faces a future of food scarcity, rising sea levels, stronger, more deadly typhoons like Typhoon Jebi, heat waves like that of 2018 that killed 65, and hospitalized 22,000, and landslides like that seen in Hiroshima.
This is the likely future of Japan, and our planet. It doesn’t have to be this way. We can all make individual choices to avoid this reality. We can leave animal products off our plates, drive less, fly less, buy less and use less water. Taken together, these actions will have a massive impact.
We must rise up together as one, and take back control from these people that would risk our survival as a species for short term profit. The rebellion of which I'm talking has already begun. The battle to save our species is underway. It is a peaceful and just battle that offers hope in a time of great darkness. This peaceful uprising calls on you to join us in our time of need, and offer support in any way you can. Our generations' greatest strength is in unity. We are united under the banner of Extinction Rebellion. And rebel we must. Rebellion is the only thing that will keep us alive.

7. ( for secondary subjects I diminish some 7s )

The quesste for our Soul has become the same
as the queeste for this planet

@ 777 I did not call your master names. I called the Almighty a name.

Truth be told I love Charan as he was master when I was little but he left me.

I always am angry with the current one and only he knows why.

>>I always am angry with the current one and only he knows why.<<

You wrote "only he knows" ….
What about you?
Do you know why you are angry?

Yes 777.
In my explanation of beings aliens etc needing human form.
Ishwar did specify the human form AND A PERFECT MASTERS initiation. I missed mentioning that part...
Now then he did not mention the
"Crown chakra matrix" that you indicated...feel free to elaborate on that concept if you wish. I do know what the chakra system is just this part you mentioned would add some things.

I do recall m. Charan singh saying when I was at Dera for satsangis not to delve into or participate much in UFOS and the like...he also said for the most part they are not from OUTER SPACE.
He then dropped the discussion.

Well that leads to 2 options.
1. They are inner dimensional experiences not inter I wrote inner ...

2. They are from our own planet earth...
So any thoughts ?..

@ UM - hello

Yes I do.

Have a good evening

"In just 11 years, our civilization, which has taken 4.5 billion years of Earthly evolution, will likely have signed its death warrant."

Im not a "climate change denier" really, but I'm highly skeptical and mostly because of these hyperbolic warnings that have been saying "this year!" "this decade!" for like 40 years. The same sales attitude has been used to sell gold for at least 50 years. "The US debt is 20 BILLION dollars. This can't go on!" Now we're comfortable with $20trillion.

For one thing, climate predictions such as whether or not it'll rain next week are not exactly accurate. To give exact predictions about red line dates in the future is obviously not so much scientific as it is propagandistic. The fact that it's always the USA and Europe who must act should tell you something. But it doesn't, because you're high or whatever, 7.

Second of all, the earth's climate has already been far more severe as it is now, and nothing we could ever do would prevent similar conditions from arising again. I'm currently sitting in an area that only 10,000 pre industrial years prior was under a mile of ice. And assuming Malenkovich cycles are real, this ice is more commonly here than not.

If another ice age comes, which doesn't require human activity, we're all screwed. We'll need to accommodate all of the human population on far less land and during climatic changes we have no civilizations memory of.

Your civilization and ecological assessments and beliefs are so wrong that I have no reason to trust your spiritual beliefs . It's like being unable to perform subtraction on paper but telling me you know calculus. I not only have no reason to believe you, but I have very good reason to absolutely reject everything you say, 7.

One initiated from july 25th your posting.

Subject the void of darkness that no one can transcend without a guide.
The darkness is so engulfing the soul cannot cross.

Well here again.
Folks theres nowhere to GO the light and darkness are everywhere simultaneously.
Therefore you will EXPERIENCE your place of AWARENESS be that varied this or that level of concentration of light force (energy.)
There is no external spirit being thats coming like a fairy tale to drag you along dear lost baby to sach khand.
There is no where to GO . its all frequencies and your frequency is your awareness....
Your awareness is your life force energy electrical charge that is it. Energy not beings in space somewhere in human looking forms in meditation.
Its all a mind mental translation for people to discuss all this and communicate. The mind gives 3 dimensional explanations for everything..

Thank you Arjuna I will make myself some coffe.

Not for all but for many who came to know Sant Mat through Charan, the transition was a shock.

He took with him whatever was admirable into his grave. He was not only charismatic, but everybody and everything else related to him all over the world.

It made me think in a way of the movie "the last emperor" where the mandarins were replaced by the "little men in green uniforms".

Personally i feel that people are far to much focused on his successor for finding answers … T want to believe that there is much more to it. What happens there in many ways resembles what I see happening at other places that has nothing to do with spirituality.

I am glad that I am not in a position to judge or questioning him. Soon after he came to succeed his uncle, the whole interaction with sant mat evaporated like an fata morgana.

I do remember, with great pleasure, that interaction with sant mat, like a grown up can bring a smile on his face thinking of his time in kindergarten.

How it came to be so I don't know … it just evaporated.

@Chy @Arj

That s a long time ago you were @dera

In my comments over 6 years here or so
I spoke about almost nothing than that
Our 7 chakras structure in >500 comments
Please google churchless 777
It is even what Brian made angrily and I'm allowed to write only in this chapter
Sometimes I try to place comments more at a more 'direct' chapter
but then he deletes/ is not placing

It is the reason that he created this """free""". chapter
Imaging what separations he would apply in the universe if he had any 'more' power

Also I talked about aliens and how we are not the only with the 7th chakra

but we are in the solar system, there are more in this galaxy
Many entities try to carbon copy with their brains, having extremely high IQ's
Many know that only reincarnation can bring them in this slaughterhouse
( you see Arjuna ) , the place where karmas are equalized
and witnesses can learn compassion 100 times a day

It is the compassion ( Love ) that works when not 'selfish' ( second agendas)

Let's say: Planets with 7 chakra beings ( humans or otherwise) are often hell for one
and heaven for another
because we can become love at 100%

Second thoughts ( in Love) imply the exigence to be loved back , a GIANT mistake
Arjuna is constantly demonstrating
He still loves Charan but the condition is that Charan is alive
He dislikes Gurinder because Arjuna didn't receive the attention he thinks he deserves

There are grades in Love ( repeat COMPASSION ) and Simran brings us very far
Even Saints do Simran 7/24
Simran is the Sound current and will wake up

Simran becomes sweet, delicious, gorgeous


Hi Chy, really enjoyed your comment. I'm enjoying living in a small town in Australia now, a lucky country imo.

I like what you said: "In electrical charge thoughts there is no ego there is no deity to define just energy at varied frequencies."

The UFO phenomena is one of my favourite mysteries in life. Your quote from Charan: "for the most part they are not from OUTER SPACE". Maybe there are some from outer space and others from inner dimensions. Also, nowadays with our modern technology some could be made by humans.

Thank you 777...
I will check your old letters..

Hi Chy
You wrote
"Radiant forms are very much like this...forms our mind needs to create to justify our existence in the universe.
To feel secure and that one has a place.
In electrical charge thoughts there is no ego there is no deity to define just energy at varied frequencies."

But we all do have a place, Chy. We're each occupying it, and can't step one Planck from it.

What if, through inspiration, or meditation, you realize there is another consciousness right within you, besides yourself?

One that is also seen everywhere you look, and in the face of an old woman, you see the young girl? And in the face of the young boy, you see the feeble old man?

And in the eyes of each, the twinkle of that higher consciousness that you witness within yourself? That presence, as if the whole creation were compassionate, underneath the things individual thinking does. We are the tearing surface of the sea, but what is the sea itself? Deep, unmoving, immovable, and feeding and healing all its inhabitants?

When you put aside imagination, what if light and sound burst through without your permission?

What do you call it? And if it can't be named, do we say it doesn't exist?

What if we gain our very capacity to see and be awake, to whatever limited extent we are, from that greater see of wakefulness, buoyant and soaring beyond us?

If you find that in you, then how can you say, "well, that's me too."

I guess anyone can say anything, but if we are honest, it's a beatiful mystery. I think we should get to know her better.

Could it be we are heading for a dissolution...not the grand dissolution but the lesser of the 2?.
Reviewing my notes I believe it was Ishwar puri...could have been m. Charan but my old note is not clear...
Im thinking it was Ishwar...
The question was on climate and earth changes...
His answer was:.
To the effect that why get so obsessed with all this . What is here to hang on to?
This life here is transitory and nothing lasts and we die and go on...what is the real need to hang on to in this world. Do your meditation and get out of this entrapment.....
Well thoughts to ponder.

Personally I believe in treating the earth as well as I can be kind to it and dont add to the destructive ways...karmic situation for us here at this time..

""" Or let's make it easier for you: can you quote any anecdote in the lives of all the people regarded as Sant Mat Sat Gurus whose biographies and teachings Beas publish, who ever claimed that? """

Charan , . . . capable to be in India and in The Netherlands
at the same time
and 5 satsangi's testifying under oath

Now go to Bandhara and you find about 1000 initiated
who can testify!

Instead, let the Successor do the ' ' 'boasting' ' '



the ' PRAISE '


Yes Spence
We do have a place...now then our minds lets say for those who believe in body mind and soul...so many different belief systems writing in this blog...
I can try to express my experience somewhat wherever it is I am at when writing. All these opinions change over time as we grow.
So anyway the mind gives us forms to see and if we go inside we may see other forms and on and on lesser and lesser forms as we go higher into pure energy pure consciousness.
So what you see here in an old womans face or a young persons face or say 'I see the spark of light in that person" ...thats the highest expression of that person that my mind here can register and relate to...as I evolve I cannot even exist here as my light will not maintain a physical structure.
Radiant form is a way of the mind relating to us a pure energy source that our mind has deemed the thing thats supposed to appear before the eye in meditation or for some in psychic situations like at satsangs or in the rivers evening glow...but in the end its all just one big electrical charge defined down here to humans per their religious belief system...and the mind as m. Charan said PLAYS TRICKS ON US...
Very uneasy to try to write all this and make sense ...
Now then what people say and believe is was or will be a perfect living master these individuals minds will project things related to that belief system and if the person can go higher again its pure energy charge at the top. Therefore if we can get between forms and forms on other dimensions if we are there when we are there we may slip through this forms issue....
Im not at the top yet!!! Darn my karmas keep me in this level....
Holding on to hopes and dreans but nothing we know here is how it is in the end..

Again somewhat to Spence but its open...
The teachings focus the satsangi on if you dont see the radiant form before you die then probably but not always you will reincarnate and pick up another master and work at it again...4 lifetimes max....
You know the story.
Now then I received a letter in the 80s signed bu M charan singh that
The 4 lifetimes are THE 4 STAGES WITHIN...not NECESSARILY 4 human births.....
The letter I no longer have....
Now this maybe should not hit the blog and it really gets into the idea of for me again.
The need to see a particular form due to accellerated good behaviour and years of hot meditation practice is
Baffling ...as if we just can get passed this forms issue there is no way to calculate what needs to happen to not reincarnate...I feel not tied to that event as a markpost.
Next story...always an answer for everything.
Well if you didnt get the radiant form before you die it may be you did get it but for due to heavy karmas you were blocked from seeing it....so back to square one.
Lets get out of needing FORMS to be our guidepost...grab the light sound if youcan just get something and go up the ladder.
Now some on this blog love and are devoted to m. Charan...I love him he was fabulous....
Now then he passed away and many years have gone by and we have received GSD.
Hes gotton a lot of new initiates and sort of I guess coddled Charans disciples too.
What we need to think about here and he as well if he reads this.
It was that he did not want to be the master but did his masters wishes. He did not want all this satsangi responsibility.
Ok time goes on and the past masters are gone and many oddities are spread around that GSD says this or that now..he says things are different example I heard he will not come to the death of the satsangi...
Ok then there are no to my knowledge tapes of his satsangs videos of his talks surprise visits and disappear ...very little of his thoughts are shared with us unless theres something Im aware of.
He gives the impression that m. Charan says it all go listen to his satsangs and yet things leak out where he says differing teachings...modern times. Things have changed.
Ok with all respect please we dont bite . we lost our master to death it broke many hearts. The attachment to him was very deep . or we many are new on the path so...
Tell us the changes let us deal with new information corrections validations for changes..
No more about finances things. We want to meet the spiritual side of this person m. Charan chose to lead the people...
We would like to hear from the current spiritual leader and get to know his insights...in our changing world.

I dont think thats asking too much...

I dont think we will hear much either .
So back to square one.
Try to hit cosmic consciousness and go from there...it may be more true..

Im not at the top yet!!! Darn my karmas keep me in this level....
Holding on to hopes and dreans but nothing we know here is how it is in the end..

your description is beautiful, . . . little bit between the words, as is always the case
at the non-describable


If you want to hear from Baba Ji, if you need to, then why not plan and go?

The fish lives in water, can it SEE the water?
The water is all around but the fish cannot SEE it because to see the water, it has to get to the boundary, but it cannot.
In the same way, you cannot see an infinite object, no matter how hard you meditate

Posted by: OshoRobbins | August 13, 2019 at 11:51 AM

False reasoning ( semi-circulair )
Who knows about what senses a fish has?
How about up and down quarks in superpositions in a fish and in meditation


Hi Spence.
Im not able to go now to India or need to at the moment.
What would be nice is if the English satsangs and perhaps some other languages if they want provided videos recorded satsangs including unedited qustions answers discussions from all these many tours...for those who have attended to play back and for those who have not to be able to get online from the centers instead of always what someone said or heard he said...
He soes not wish to do this and I think many people would like to hear his talks and replay them as desired.
Seems like its all gotton deep in secrecy and only the people in the "inner circle" no doubt have some recordings that they do not pass out or may even say they have.
Should be these recordings someway and many would feel better that hes participating in a different way than its been....share the talks and not 3rd 4th 5th hand passed down with usually negative understandings in these pass downs...
Just a thought....

Hi Osho.
Your Fish in water analogy....
This type of chat I dearly enjoy but is very difficult online as the nuances are hard to get that the person expressing is trying to convey and so we just do our best.
This infinity subject is so complex and the closest I can relate to it without getting lost is the pure energy currents that flow through all dimensions at differing frequencies. In those each independent of the other frequencies are infinite miles of vibration...we with our minds translate that to dimensions and those dimensions take forms in our mind...forms we categorize to fit particular dimensions to inform us of where we are and what is there means where one is vibrationally.
The forms though are deceptive as they are different depending on each persons conditioning...they too are illusory of the purest state of awareness...god consciousness.
In the deepest sense as we get higher frequencies due to raising above each levels consciousness we go to higher frequency.
Thats where the vegetarian diet on THIS frequency comes in...to allow us to step up and the story goes on much more than what we read about dimensions in books.
Until we get that highest frequency we can only as you say be aware of the present state...we reach a boundary and the awareness shows one the next level.
Great fish analogy....

What does it mean to find the One within yourself?

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field."
Matthew (13:44)

Why did the man hide the treasure in the field? Was that honest? Should he have told the owner of the field? Was it fair to the owner to keep him or her ignorant of the treasure?

The man who found the treasure and hid it again appears to have bought the field at a price agreed to by the owner under the pretense that the field contained no treasure. By giving this illustration as a positive example, is Jesus promoting questionable behavior?

Why did the man choose to deceive the owner? Perhaps the man knew that even by selling all he had, he would not be able to afford the true price of the treasure. No one can. Why did he have to have it? As for the owner, who was he? Perhaps the owner was not deceived at all.

Consider what may have been lost through the oral tradition in this rendition of Jesus’ parable. Perhaps the original went a little something like this:

'The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a man’s own fields. The man had been away for so long he didn’t recognize his own home. Something inside the man brought him to this field and to the family treasure, his birthright, which the man, as a boy, had helped His father bury long ago. As soon as he uncovered the treasure he knew it was his, but did not understand why. So he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field from his father, whom he also didn’t recognize. His father was so happy to see his son’s return that he played along and sold him the field for trinkets. His father knew that his son was gradually remembering. One day his son realized that the field, the treasure and the father were all his to begin with. He ran through the fields up to the house he hadn’t seen in years. Now everything was clear, everything familiar. He ran into that house, his home, and embraced his father. All that mattered to his father was that day of reunion. This is what the kingdom of heaven is like.'

Jesus’ parable has a simple allegorical explanation to today's Meditator: The man found this treasure in the field within himself. He gladly paid his debts to those around him, finished his duties, left his old life, and made his home that field, and the treasure the center of his new life.

To become One, of necessity, by its very definition, is to integrate with every part of who we are, to become whole.

Hi Spence
Aug 4 2019 11:44am... Your article web address on

Vipassana meditation.

Comes up as misinformed error page...I cant open it....
Maybe has been removed.?
Dont worry about it if it turns into a project to get it ....I have known some satsangis who joined that because they were getting meditation results.....?

· "The proof is automatically transfer all worldly Love Songs to Your Master!"
· "The quesste for our Soul has become the same as the queeste for this planet"

Very helpful! Thank you.

It's funny, but it's hard to be serious reading some of the comments on this blog, despite the real heart of the issues discussed being of fundamental importance. But, as Aurobindo said "To listen to some devout people, one would imagine that God never laughs; Heine was nearer the mark when he found in Him the divine Aristophanes. God's laughter is sometimes very coarse and unfit for polite ears; He is not satisfied with being Molière, He must needs also be Aristophanes and Rabelais."

Some of the recent comments specifically around the nature of the inner experiences mediated via the Radhasoami paradigm and disentangling them FROM the RS paradigm and/or specific personalities, such as Gurinder, I have found to be genuinely interesting & thought-provoking. It's imo a real shame that it is highly unlikely that there will be much honest & sincere unpacking of those ideas & experiences here due in no small part to the ridiculous "vow" of not disclosing your inner experiences (some "science" of the soul this is! :), amongst a few other factors.

As I see Chris has been posting here recently, and repeating the same old arguments that imo have been shown to be incoherent, confused & based on dogmatic beliefs years ago, and 777 recently wrote this:

"In short, all methods other than Love fall short love strong as when we were 14 and had a crush
you cannot eat, cannot sleep That kind.........and sorry everybody nice bloggers , . . you can only produce that for a human not for a stone, a spirit, . . not even The Holy Spirit"

I was reminded of a previous debate I had with Chris which also addresses, I think, what is happening today with Gurus like Gurinder who turn out to be more human than their own dogma claims (you will note this is a form of hypocrisy & lack of integrity, claims which cannot be made of gurus like Nisargadatta for eating meat, getting apparently angry or smoking, or Osho for having rolex watches and rolls royces, because neither of these teachers claimed to have transcended the "five thieves", or claimed to be "Perfect Living Masters" or "Saints" etc. This is cognitive dissonance, religious belief, confusion etc, applying deeply in-built magical & mythical standards to teachers who never once claimed them, whilst excusing fraudulent behaviour in those gurus who DO claim these standards!!)

It is the story of Dhanna Bhagat, which translates into "the Pebble/Stone Saint". In this story, the absolute devotion of a simple man to a STONE secured for himself "unity with the Lord". Yes, a stone idol leads directly to God realisation according to the Guru Granth Sahib, and this is a very famous story in punjabi. Such subtleties of indian mysticism are left out of dogmatic schools like Radhasoami where they claim to have the unique technology and secrets to God realisation! Dhana Bhagat's "realisation" is confirmed by none other than Guru Arjan Dev the 5th Sikh guru and compiler of the Granth Sahib, and Bhai Gurdas:

"Listening to such happenings,
the poor Jat Dhanna too in devotion engaged.
The Lord to him manifested Himself--
Such was Dhanna's good fortune. "
Guru Arjan Dev, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, page 448

"Brahmin used to worship idols
And Dhanna went out to graze cows;
When Dhanna saw this all
He put queries to Brahmin who said: '
We who serves the Lord Gets fulfilled all desires of his heart;
Dhanna made supplication to him:
'Give me one (Idol) if it pleases thee
Brahmin wrapped a stone in cloth
And gave it to Dhanna to get rid of him,
Dhanna first bathed the stone,
Then offered food and butter-milk;
He prayed with folded hands, and
Prostrated to persuade it accept the offer;
I will not eat a morsel-
Food I relish not if Thou art annoyed.'
God appeared before the Dhanna,
Accepted the offering he made;
Innocent love of Dhanna
Thus united him into the Lord."
Bhai Gurdas, Varan X.1.3

I think this story serves as a lovely counter balance to those who claim, like Chris or 777, that you must discern the true and correct path and guru - who it seems in our current times must be a failed semi billionaire fraudster who made at least some of his money via unethical practices, with no personal history of mysticism we actually know about, whos goons make death threats to people, who claims to have transcended lust but likes to talk about topless women on beaches or the 69 sexual position with western satsangis in their 90s etc etc - or you will be limited in your spiritual "attainments".

They do not actually realise how BLESSED they are this story exists in the Granth Sahib and is authenticated by Arjan Singh.

Because it means EVEN THOUGH Charan rightly admitted he was just like a "stone idol" being worshipped by his satsangis, because it means EVEN THOUGH Gurinder probably doesn't have much knowledge of mysticism, let alone experience, and that he's a greedy fraudster who refuses to face up to his actions etc - that EVEN THOUGH this is the case, there is still hope, there is still hope.

But only for the genuine & sincere seekers. I think that is what this story about Dhanna Bhagat is hinting at.

Regarding radiant forms; meh. Yes, ultra realistic, ultra exhilarating, ultra beautiful etc. They can change into any form imaginable, and more. Lets not pretend it has anything to do with that fraudulent dude wearing a turban running the family business shall we? Perhaps then....just perhaps.....we can realise & understand what it REALLY is?

Regarding the actual sound/shabd absorbtion experiences, and how to interpret the narrative forms that appear within it, that is a really fascinating topic. I think the whole RS religion & dogma limits profoundly how that is experienced, and imo that is evidenced by people who think their "inner experiences" of the "radiant forms" of their physical masters is literally just that, so become trapped within incoherent & untenable belief systems (such as Gurinder could possibly be what the RS dogma defines a "Satguru" as), and unable to escape the limiting nature of concepts, beliefs, fairy-tale narratives or a variety of other "maya".

It doesn't matter how deep, how ecstatic, how "hyper-real", how conceptually convincing etc your experience is, but if it's telling you some dude in a turban from the punjab is the soul saviour of souls in the entire multi-verse, you can be sure you are suffering from an acute case of delusional myth making well, well within the scope of "maya" or "kal".

I've posted this link before to what I think is one of the better, more open and honest, non-dogmatic etc discussions of one persons personal experience with shabd absorption:


Right, I gotta go!

To Manjit and whoever...
That was a very long dissertation you just gave and Im sitting here and read it.
From my opinion and again im in pinda writing this...and pinda daily hah!

You have moved ahead of the romantic guruuy status of the new satsangi...you are going deeper into the teachings of various saints and digging up things that are after one completes RS 101.

When we can be aware of that shift RS is viewed in the way its simply presented basic satsang and 4 vows...but a deeper place is opened up...this causes anger and frustration sometimes....just keep shifting your gears...my opinion youre doing quite well...
That is what came to me to say in this particular blog. It is not any kind of comparison to the rest of you...

I am not recalling this next part entirely as it slips my mind over time but ill share what i remember to the best i can.
M. Charan said...that our relationships with satsangis and for satsang and the like are to be of a spiritual nature and we should be helpers and best buddies to our peers along the path.
Being in BUSINESS or doing BUSINESS with a satsangi is not always good or honest and we cant judge the business side of the person by their satsang presence and knowledge of the books etc. he she may handle business entirely different than satsang conduct. We must seperate the 2 relationships.
End of what he said...

Contradictions here...yes! but you decide for yourself. This is not my opinion...just passing what he said as closely as I remember.
It should seem like...trying to analyze that he said:

Me now ...
All are struggling souls trying for purity and karmas and situations with that person are not always in line with what we see perhaps in knowing that person....
So perhaps our babaji has things to work on as well. I am not the judge...just another wandering soul.
Theres been a lot of growth in the RS group globally since our dear M. Charan died...
If it just makes many people a better person and get a good start then grow on their own as we all end up doing anyway then RS Is still better than other religions...less dogma no mandatory holidays or meetings preachers that dont know anything we have all you professors here to chat with and learn things .....it offers as yet much more for anyone that I can see than other ORGANIZED religions...if organized religion is what someone wants...
Its not inexpensive to grow this movement this with all the centers either.
A lot of the monies have no doubt gone to assist the growth....

Hi Manjit
You wrote
"It doesn't matter how deep, how ecstatic, how "hyper-real", how conceptually convincing etc your experience is, but if it's telling you some dude in a turban from the punjab is the soul saviour of souls in the entire multi-verse, you can be sure you are suffering from an acute case of delusional myth making well, well within the scope of "maya" or "kal"."

This is an odd statement after you just gave the beautiful story of Jat Dhanna, where the purity of his devotion won for him salvation, even though his understanding of what to worship was entirely ignorant.

777 is on the way, Manjit. He is devoted to the only God he knows.

This is why the true Sat Gurus sit in the back of the audience. Their devotion has resulted in the opening up of inner realms and experiences.

It's about focus of attention on things that are not harmful, practicing intense devotion, experiencing bliss, which is experienced as passionate love, and that conditions us for more.

No one needs to worry about the accuracy of their thinking or devotion, because all focused thinking, if paired to an open mind, takes us above our limited conditioning.

Maharaji said it will, 'from quantity of effort in meditation, comes quality.'

The only issue is whether the object of your focus is actually harming themselves or others. That is a note series concern, since that is what we end up defending, if we make that the focus of our devotion.

So, to paraphrase Christ, God wants us to worship in Spirit and in objective Truth... That's the beautiful and resounding Shabd within, and objective Truth.

And even re Shabd, it is the main highway. Everyone is taken there when their focus is reasonably decent. And off target focus on any thing higher also, still takes you into the sea that will pull you to that highway of the Holy Word of God in time.

It's built into the human body.

And it may be entirely physiological. But what astounding discoveries are there to be found!

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