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July 06, 2019

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"Guilt, culpability and responsibility have already been determined"

Not exactly. Per the matter of responsibility, the court determined that the money should not have been loaned, and that the money needs to be paid back.

But the court has not ruled on who is (in the strict legal sense of the term) guilty for making those loans. Nor has the court ruled that the recipients of those loans are guilty.

Yes, we can speculate that Godhwari and the Singh bros. were obviously "in bed" with the guru. We can say this matter is an obvious case of a religious leader using his power to coerce followers into illegal acts. But we can't say that the court has made any determinations on whether Gurinder Singh is guilty on any matters involving influence, coercion, or conspiracy.

Hi J

You wrote

"the court has not ruled on who is (in the strict legal sense of the term) guilty for making those loans."

Actually they have, but you missed it.


The court has ruled that strictly in the legal sense Gurinder et al are responsible for the loans and no one else

And as they have not paid them, they are guilty of delinquency. Therefore it is Gurinder et al who, being guilty, must now repay those loans. And not Malvinder. And as Gurinder at all are guilty, their assets are frozen until they make payment.

That determination has already been made when they moved responsibility for the money away from Malvinder and squarely onto Gurinder et al shoulders.

This now sets the platform, the legal precident for criminal prosecution should the delinquency persist.

Gurinder et al can now be tried and convicted for criminal conspiracy to defraud on the basis that the high court has already deemed them responsible for the loans and they have refused to respond.

This is why he should pay his delinquent bills.


Even IF all the loans are paid back. Does that mean GSD is innocent and RSSB is all holy as they portray themselves? Heck no. Guilty or not, this should be an eyeopener. God may exist but he sure as hell aint in RSSB.


Guilty or not, this should be an eyeopener. God may exist but he sure as hell aint in RSSB.

Sez who? Could God be hiding in CofC then... maybe under an anonymous
name like one of us homey's? Nah. How about a canonized Saint, by jove?
No way, too much pedophiles among them. One of the Ascended Masters
in the Himalayas? TV evangelists? Con artistry rampant in both, I hear.

How 'bout great scientists, artists. statesmen ...surely we can find a candidate
there. Nope, all fallible or dead so long, their wisdom has become passe,
their theories discredited, incomplete, or just plain irrelevant. A few may be
admiral, even spiritually minded, human beings but God...

Let's face it. God is dead! Only the great minds, reasonably current ones
and a few oldies, have anything worth hearing. Plus a few brilliant atheists
who haunt the blogs debunking religious blind believers of course.

Anyone ranting about spirituality or mysticism is a sham, a grifter, or poseur.
We're dead meat, a few neural impulses, gifted with tons of psycho-babble
in many cases but that's it.

No, there is no soul... it's your wishful thinking. Discard all the mumbo jumbo
of mantras, inner experiences, and guru's. It's pure rot. Thus it has been and
so shall it remain.

There is one purity. One salvation. It's mind, science and the observable
physical world. This is the only true religion. The only valid area of study.
Worship at its altar. Spread the gospel. Time is short. Now go in peace,
grasshopper. You'll be dead by winter!

Spence what you have written is nonsense. This is not the first
Time the high court of Delhi has issued garneshee orders to other entities to recover money from the Singh brothers to pay Daichi.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/delhi-high-court-orders-seven-companies-owing-singh-brothers-money-not-to-part-with-properties/amp_articleshow/66433256.cms

This has happened before In oct 2018 and yet the responsibility of payment has still been squarely on the shoulders of both Singh brothers. They are responsible,
The court is merely trying to find money to pay Daichi wherever it can.
Stop spreading nonsense!

how can u approve the comments beacuse u bloddy fellow is passing useless stories

Does all this negate the work of Soamji or Sawan Singh?

Hi Vijay

You have not understood the progression of the High Court.

In the order you mentioned the garneshees were to pay Malvinder and Shivinder, so they could pay their debts. This leaves the responsibility on the shoulders of Malvinder and Shivinder.

But in the order of June 10, the High Court had transferred the responsibility for the Gurinder et al dollars off of Malvinder and Shivinder and directly onto the shoulders of Gurinder et al. They are now ordered to pay the high court directly.

"With this order, the Delhi HC has expanded the scope of people from whom the money owed by Singh brothers to Daiichi can be recovered to honour the arbitration award.

" Besides the Dhillon family, the Delhi HC is issuing 'garnishee orders' against several Dhillon and RSSB associates' companies, including Prius Real Estate, Addon Realty, Payne Realtors SGGD Projects, Luminous Holding. A garnishee order is an order against a third party to recover money to settle a debt or dues.

"Garnishee order prevents these entities from alienating any assets. The dues will now be paid to Delhi HC instead of Singh brothers and their entities to whom it is owed."

https://m.businesstoday.in/story/delhi-hc-orders-recovery-from-rssb-chief-gurinder-dhillon-wife-and-sons-to-pay-singh-brothers-due-to-daiichi/1/354797.html

Please note last sentence above. It can easily be missed.

But it is the crucial next step to prosecute Gurinder et al directly, and it alleviates Malvinder and Shivinder of responsibility for those monies.

The high court has, in one single step, shifted responsibility, and culpability for these fraudulent loans, away from Malvinder and Shivinder and directly to Gurinder et al.

Further from the above article

"BusinessToday.In has reported the flow of money from Singh brothers to entities owned and controlled by Gurinder Singh Dhillon - the head of the Radha Soami Satsang Beas - his family and assocites of RSSB. RoC filings and terms sheets say between 2011 and 2014, Rs 1107.5 crore from the Rs 9,576 crore sale proceeds of Ranbaxy to Daiichi Sankyo was paid through RHC group firms RHC Holding Private Limited, Oscar Investment Limited, RHC Finance Private Limited and Fortis Healthcare Holdings Private Limited into two group entities ANR Securities Private Limited and Ranchem Private Limited."

The High Court is nor holding the loan recipients directly by court order responsible for the loans, and no longer Malvinder and Shivinder.

Dear Brian,
Nobody remembers the Master more lovingly or as frequently as you do.
Eveey Master has had a Judas but the good news for you is that the Judas also goes to the Master ( For he is but love ).

Hi Jim
You asked
"Does all this negate the work of Swami Ji or Sawan Singh Ji?"

If you think God is a physical body and heaven is a community called the Dera, yes I think so. This dismantles the entire organization.

If you believe Soami Ji and Sawan were pointing to something natural we find within ourselves, and providing a man - made set of practices to help get there, something universal, then that still holds.

If you think the Guru is physically perfect, which supports the caste system, that was never real. It's culture bound. If you think the Master is perfect it helps concentration. But if you understand the Master is just a human being and your love for him is really symbolic of loving the divine, subjective presence that is the entire creation and is in everyone, that's better.

To love the Master without understanding that is a temporary step towards loving him as your brother, as just another human being in this divine creation, and to universal love for everyone, then the point of lost, the teachings after lost, and what you have left is actually corruption of the teachings into a religion and a replication of the caste system. That needs to go.

Vinay, your comment is ridiculous. I don't love Gurinder Singh. I only think of him when I'm writing a blog post about his involvement in financial fraud, death threats, and other unethical acts. I spend my day living my worldly life on our rural property, and other places in Oregon.

Yesterday I did a lot of mowing with our walk-behind field mower. No thought of anything other than the tall grass was in my mind. I just finished watching the U.S. Women's soccer team win the World Cup. My only thoughts were gratitude for the free kick and a great second goal.

Even the gurus are involved in monetary matters and worldly affairs.so one is perfect.

"The court has ruled that strictly in the legal sense Gurinder et al are responsible for the loans and no one else"

This just isn't accurate. No court has ruled the Gurinder is responsible for making the loans, i.e,, for the misappropriation. embezzlement, theft of those funds. No court has ruled that Gurinder is responsible for receiving the loans. The court has only determined that the parties that received the loans need to pay the money back. If the parties that received the loans are delinquent in paying back the money, that's a separate matter who's guilty of ordering and organizing the misappropriation of the funds from the corporation's coffers.

The court didn't rule that Malvinder is no longer "responsible" for his role in making the loans. It's only ordering that the misappropriated money be returned from where it presently is, rather than returned directly from Malvinder, who clearly doesn't have the money himself.

Delinquency in paying back a loan isn't necessarily a crime. No criminal charges have been made against anyone who received the misappropriated money, and therefore it's not accurate to say that a court has found Gurinder to be "guilty" of a crime.

"If Gurinder can be tried and convicted" if he doesn't return the money...yes, but that need to happen before we can use the term "guilty."

J I get your points by I don't think you see the connections between responsibility and guilt.

Which explains a lot.


Even the gurus are involved in monetary matters and worldly affairs.so one is perfect.

If I understand correctly, a Guru's spiritual advice is perfect; in
worldly matters, it may not be. He may have incomplete or
false data... or have been misinformed by others.

GSD for example may have acquiesced to schemes on the
assurances offered by Godhwani. Or maybe Shivi and Malvi did.
Then again, depending on gut instincts, you may see Shabnam
and her sons as dupes cruelly manipulated by GSD himself.
Now, the Dhillon family is collectively on the hook for fraudulent
loans and must repay them.

The point is that even these tawdry events may be the will of
the "totality of consciousness" (alias God). The tapestry is perfect
when seen from a higher level. Back down in the murky realms
you have villains and heroes and court proceedings and we
chase after truth as we see it. We must play our assigned role.

One day, following paths which lead us inward, we can see "in
whole" what we perceived only in an incomplete, fragmented,
or, even mistaken way previously.

Every Guru who come to this world is being criticized. Be it Christ or others. So, nothing new in your case. You may have some frustration in life or hasn't received enough love in life. No problem. Even people like you will be forgiven because Master is all about love and he loves everyone including you. Don't feel frustrated. I can see how much time you spend thinking and doing research about him but it's good for you. I can understand criticizing needs a lot of energy. Even criticizing will bring you closer to him. Love to you. Please don't feel frustrated. You can spread love or hatred through this blog is your choice. You will also be loved one day. Lots of love to you that's what I have learnt. When your heavy karmic debt you will be alright again. take care.

"J I get your points by I don't think you see the connections between responsibility and guilt. Which explains a lot."

It seems the court doesn't see the connections either.

Otherwise, the court would have handed down a verdict of guilty to Gurinder Singh for organizing a conspiracy to embezzle funds from a corporation. But the court hasn't done anything like that. The court has only recognized that the misappropriated money is currently in accounts and property *outside* of the control of Malvinder Singh, and that the parties that received the inappropriate loans need to liquidate their assets to return the money to the corporation.

The term "guilt" has various moral and legal definitions (courtesy of wikipedia):

The moral definition of "Guilt" is the obligation of a person who has violated a moral standard to bear the sanctions imposed by that moral standard.

However, In legal terms, guilt means having been found to have violated a criminal law, though law also raises 'the issue of defences, pleas, the mitigation of offences, and the defeasibility of claims'

There's "objective or legal guilt, which occurs when society's laws have been broken... social guilt...[over] an unwritten law of social expectation", and finally the way "personal guilt occurs when someone compromises one's own standards".

My view is that when giving an overview of the RSSB money scandal, it's best to be precise when using the term "guilt." It's quite possible that more info will come to light and Gurinder himself will be taken to court and found guilty of something. But that hasn't happened yet, and therefore it's premature for anyone to state that "Guilt, culpability and responsibility have already been determined and payment ordered. For the funds Gurinder et al took..." etc. And again, that's because no court has determined legal GUILT over the misappropriation of funds. If the court had done that, someone would have been charged with a crime. What the court has done is recognize where the funds currently are and is ordering that these funds be returned. That's quite different from the court pinpointing Gurinder et al as financial criminals.

Maybe not an apt comparison, but perhaps it's something similar to the Bernie Madoff case, where I believe people who'd received money were told to pay it back. The people who had to pay money back weren't charged with a crime; nevertheless, the court ruled that they had to return money.

I'm sorry J but you are wrong.

Guilty
"culpable of or responsible for a specified wrongdoing.
"he was found guilty of manslaughter"
synonyms: culpable, to blame, blameworthy, blameable, at fault, in the wrong, responsible, answerable, accountable, liable;

Gurinder et al are guilty of violating their legal agreements by non - payment of their loans.

The High Court isn't holding Malvinder responsible anymore for those.

Gurinder et al alone were ordered to pay the court directly, not Malvinder, who is no longer being held liable for those.

You have tried to disconnect guilt from liability but that is neither rational nor what the court has done.

Gurinder et al was ordered to pay precisely because he promised, legally, to do so and is liable for every Rupee.

Not Malvinder.

If you closely follow the teachings of RSSB,Master says real Guru is always within and it can neither be a physical body nor the disciples can be a physical body,because these bodies will come to an end one day.Real Guru is god within and real disciple is a soul.You have to first understand the concept of RSSB,only criticizing will not help you on the basis of HC judgement.Do you think that courts always give right decisions.To understand Master you will have to come up to that level,only then you may be able to understand him and it also depends upon the master that he made you able or not.

J just to clarify
The criminal investigation was not settled by the high Court.

The Civil matter was settled by the high court's order.

Gurinder et al are guilty of taking these loans and not repaying.

No one else is to blame for that.

But as to fraud, that has yet to be determined.

However, the loans themselves are Gurinder et al's responsibility. And they are guilty of non - payment, no one else, according to the high court's order. That is reflected in the order. And further, that the court removed that responsibility to pay to Malvinder.

But you have not addressed the actual court order and the level of responsibility the court has placed upon Gurinder et al and removed from Malvinder.

Radha Swami...And Love to all Satsangis and the Creation....

How come a spiritual guru is more interested in money then in bhakti. Is this what is being preached by such gurus. God pl save d people from being blind followers to such moneyheaded gurus. Pl open ur eyes his followers n see d facts don't just have blind trust in any such gurus n waste ur time n energy n money on them. Rather go n help d poor n needy. God will appreciate that deed rather than following blunder gurus. Else tomorrow u all will fall into a big trouble.
God save his followers n put them on right thoughts n right track.

Spence you don’t understand the meaning of orders from a high court.
A garneshee order is the same in all circumstances. This is what a garneshee order is.

A garnishee order is passed by an executing court directing or ordering a garnishee not to pay money to judgment debtor since the latter is indebted to the garnisher (decree holder). It is an order of the court to attach money or goods belonging to the judgment debtor in the hands of a third person

So in either circumstance the HC is trying to collect money wherever it can. It is NOT a judgement of guilt as you claim.
Again you are giving wrong information.

My overview of the RSSB money scandal:

It's very similar to those museums that were found to have Nazi plunder in their galleries.
The museums didn't loot the art, but according to a court ruling, they had to return the art to its previous owners.

It would be a mistake to say the museums were found "guilty" of stealing the art. In a similar way, those who received loans that were later judged to inappropriately commissioned are not "guilty" of stealing money. Not necessarily guilty that is. If a court finds that the recipients of the loans had in some way conspired to initiate those loans in a fraudulent manner, then those loan recipients could be criminally charged with engaging in a financial conspiracy. In a word, charged with theft.

This saga hasn't reached that (legal) point yet. Criminal charges against Gurinder Singh or anyone associated with RSSB/Gurinder Singh have not yet been brought.

However, aside from the matter of established legal guilt, there's the matter of how things look. That is, how they look for the guru of Beas. Even though Gurinder Singh hasn't been charged with a crime, there are several things about his actions and inactions in respect to this scandal that just smell bad to me.

1) Gurinder's complete silence with the press.
2) Gurinder's (reported) cavalier response to a satsangi about the money scandal.
3) The Dhillon family's delinquency in paying back the money. (Though there may be valid reasons for why they've been tardy)
4) This is a big one: Malvinder's 180 on his comment that he held Gurinder "blameless," and his filing a lawsuit against his guru for, basically, taking a huge amount of money and leaving Malvinder holding the bag. We wait to hear the decision on this suit, and it may be that Malvinder is the guilty party and is just trying to save himself. But Malvinder going against not only his own family but also his guru gives weight to his testimony, or so it seems to me.
5) Filmmaker Talwar's charges against Gurinder seem to largely corroborate Malvinder's accusations. That is, that Gurinder has a track record of gaining people's confidence, asking them for huge sums of money, and then refusing to pay it back. In my view, Talwar's charges definitely amplify Malvinder's charges, because when multiple people come forward with the same allegations the likelihood increases that these charges are credible.

So my mixed verdict as of July 7, 2019. The matter of the Guru of Beas' financial probity doesn't look good, but we don't yet know enough facts to make definite conclusions of moral guilt. As for legal guilt, that to is still to be determined.

"Gurinder et al alone were ordered to pay the court directly, not Malvinder, who is no longer being held liable for those. You have tried to disconnect guilt from liability but that is neither rational nor what the court has done"

The court made no ruling on liability or legal guilt. https://hinessight.blogs.com/files/order-28-05-2019132578_2019.pdf

Again, the court ruling was simply an order to garnish the funds from their present location, i.e., not Malvinder's pockets, where such funds do not exist. What would be irrational is for the court to not recover the money that's due to Daiichi Sankyo; the court did this in the most direct way -- to go to where the loaned money is, rather than through Malvinder.

If it's found that a museum owns a Rembrandt that the Nazi's looted, a court isn't going to hold the museum culpable and guilty for possessing the painting. But it will order that the painting be returned to its rightful owners.

j, you're ignoring some important facts. The fraudulent loans involved coordination between those sending the money and those receiving the money. The shell companies that received the money were controlled at the time by members of the Dhillon family and their close associates.

So using your analogy, it is as if a museum coordinated with Nazis to receive stolen artwork. This wasn't a case of innocent people receiving fraudulent loans. It was a case of the Dhillon family colluding in the fraud. They were directors of shell companies that received the money, then passed it on to the Dhillons.

In other cases it appears that money was siphoned directly from Religare/Fortis by Sunil Godhwani, the guru's right hand man. So we're supposed to believe that God in Human Form, the all-knowing RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, had no knowledge of where hundreds of millions of dollars came from that arrived in the bank accounts of the Dhillon family?

If you believe that, you'll believe anything. Like, that the RSSB guru is God in Human Form.


So in either circumstance the HC is trying to collect money wherever it can. It is NOT a judgement of guilt as you claim.

I think Spence clarified it is the Dhillon's responsibility to repay the loans
and haven't so they are only civilly liable at this point.

"Guilty" is however such a pejorative term and so suggestive of criminality,
it's preferable to use a less fraught term in my view.

If a bank robber deposits his loot by forging another's bank deposit
slip, or tells them " it's a loan... quick buy some real estate!", then the
receiver of illicit funds is on the hook for repayment.

Civilly at least for starters but under the microscope for potential
criminal involvement too.

This world is very cruel ....
Sant are coming hear to find the right path of our life..... but some disappointed people are claiming them to they are not good....but after going them thay realise thair right massage...
God give blessing.......

This is a fake story
In this world there are so many haters who always jealous with good people and people who are on right path
...so go to hell we dont care what u say about for our santmat...


So we're supposed to believe that God in Human Form, the all-knowing RSSB guru, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, had no knowledge of where hundreds of millions of dollars came from that arrived in the bank accounts of the Dhillon family?

This injects a totally gratuitous and irrelevant prejudicial smear into this
argument. ("See this guy purports to be GIHF so he sure as hell shoulda
known millions were pouring into his account")

GIHF's speak authoritatvely about their spiritual discipline and are just
as vulnerable as anyone else in other areas. Heads of family, corp's,
the sharp, the dumb are bamboozled all the time. What's TBD is who
orchestrated the criminality, who knew what, or shoulda known. That's
the purview of the court.

But, GSD is RSSB "CEO" so to speak. It's an enormous job that
reportedly would bring much younger men/women to their knees
within a matter of weeks. He may well have delegated financial
details to others within his family, already one of the wealthier ones
in India, I presume. He may have received continual updates and
assurances from wife/sons/associates, glanced at cooked books
briefly, and assumed all was well.

He hasn't allayed suspicion by repaying the loans but as mentioned
there may be mitigating circumstances there... or not. He may not be
making public statements on advice of attorney. Maybe he shoulda
already done both but he's fallible no matter how much we wanna
belief GIHF is infallible at all times, in all matters.

The museums that were dubiously receiving dozens of famous art works
or the insurance companies (including banks)who refused to pay off
Holocaust victim heirs because no death cert. could be produced were
culpable too. So were multitudes of Germans and others, at least morally,
in the rise of Hitler and criminality of the Nazi's.

GSD may forever be viewed as a "guilty bystander" under permanent
cloud. Unless the courts rule on his involvement however, it's off the
mark, to say anyone can be sure. Or to sneer he couldn't possibly have
been duped by those he trusted. Our ultimate guilt or innocence then
has to rest within us and not in the suspicions of others.


Well said Vinay. Theres no point writing a descent comment. BH is a biased person. It is not a service to the society.

Some people doesn't have good digestion. They get small insignificant thing and they start barking. Now days the trend is spoil the image of gurus and earn money. Bhagvaan tumhari dukaan chlaaye rakhe. Kuchh tumhare jaise bhi piece hone chahiye. But don't say without thinking. U don't have any idea about the henious crime you are doing. Take time and think again. This is the polite request mere Bhai. We all are insect in front of real gurus.

I am agree with Swapnil sir.

Thank you.

Radha soami ji

Brian says
“If you believe that, you'll believe anything. Like, that the RSSB guru is God in Human Form.”

News for you Brian...you too are “god in human form”.
We all are. If you stopped your negativity you will see God in everyone.

Charan Singh used to say and also wrote in his books that the real guru earns his own money and does not take a penny from the Sangat or anybody. Baba Gurinder Singh and his family has embezzled one billon dollars from the sale proceeds of Ranbaxy Pharma and his disciples are trying to justify this act of embezzlement.
In addition who is paying for Baba,s princely stay at the Dera and all over India and his Airplane flights ( in a personal plane maintained by Dera ) in India and First class travel abroad ?.
I do not think Gurinder Singh pays a penny for all this luxury for himself and his family from his pocket.

Dungeness, you wrote:
"But, GSD is RSSB "CEO" so to speak. It's an enormous job that
reportedly would bring much younger men/women to their knees
within a matter of weeks. He may well have delegated financial
details to others within his family, already one of the wealthier ones
in India, I presume. He may have received continual updates and
assurances from wife/sons/associates, glanced at cooked books
briefly, and assumed all was well."

If this is as you say, then they all betrayed him and lied to him? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard yet. You're dumping the blame on everyone else, but him. If he did charge others to do what he asked, then he's still responsible for their actions. To say his his own sons and wife all colluded together without his knowledge is laughable. So on the one hand he's all knowing and the guru, and the next he's duped by everyone, including his own family. Ya, right.

Sumit, you wrote:
"They get small insignificant thing and they start barking. Now days the trend is spoil the image of gurus and earn money."

Are $100's of millions of dollars no small thing? These guru's have themselves spoiled their own image by running after wealth and coddling the politicians and wealthy people. Do you think he would say the same thing to you if you were involved in this kind of mess? He'd probably say avoid the company of people who cheat and lie. Think on that...

Again, don't look at guilt right now, that will flush out eventually, against GSD or not, have to wait and see. I've said this on previous posts, would you, not knowing anything about this path, doing your homework and finding these court rulings and fraudulent money loans to the guru, his immediate family, and close friends, would you still join and follow a guru embroiled in this mess?

If you say yes, then that's why people get sucked in by dogma and bull shit. Your acceptance and denial of these events only emboldens these people to keep doing what they're doing. They amass huge personal wealth, and hide behind it by doing charity work, and people like you, including me until recently, get googoo eyed and fall for it because the teachings sound great, but the leader is involved and connected to these nefarious things.

Vijay, yes, we're all in essence all the same. But GSD in a position of authority leading millions of souls, and has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, among other family members and close friends.

I could be wrong, but Brian hasn't been caught fraudulently siphoning $100's of millions of dollars out of a publicly traded company and investing in bad real estate. Just taking a wild guess there. And for that matter, most people actually follow the guidelines RSSB propagates, like earning an honest living.

Vijay, Swapnil, Ramlal, Vinay, Sachin, Sumit, PM:

Why don't you address the key issue here: GSD, his two sons, his wife, his elder son's wife, his close RSSB friends, have had their assets frozen and forced by the courts to pay back the money.

This is not "fake news". this is an Indian Court Order doing this. There are also other investigations going on along with this to determine the extent of all this.

I realize it is difficult to hear these things about your beloved guru, but this is happening, and the reports are real, true and being enforced. If YOU had done this, do you think GSD would want to associate with you? Probably not, because he wouldn't want to be linked or connected to anyone involved in this... would make him look bad. Think on that for a minute, please.


If this is as you say, then they all betrayed him and lied to him? That's the biggest load of shit I've heard yet. You're dumping the blame on everyone else, but him. If he did charge others to do what he asked, then he's still responsible for their actions. To say his his own sons and wife all colluded together without his knowledge is laughable. So on the one hand he's all knowing and the guru, and the next he's duped by everyone, including his own family. Ya, right.

You're missing the point entirely. Why construct a speculative narrative
about guilt or innocence at all? You don't know what went on, do not
have ready access to forensic accountants or , attorneys, police, or eye
witnesses.

There is a reasonable counterpoint to your transparently biased conclusion.
No, that is not "dumping the blame on everybody but him". You and others
have already trotted out that old canard "So on the one hand he's all knowing
and the guru, and the next he's duped by everyone, including his own family.
Ya, right." .

You're simply trolling any counterpoint with supposition, hyperbole, and ridicule.
It's the case of our CofC "junior boy/girl detective" hot on the trail of a corrupt
guru... and freshly armed with ammunition after reading news reports and a
court ruling. Yep, he/she is an expert and will teach those clueless blind
believers about so-called Guru's.

The Dhillons are on the civil hook for the illegal loans that they received.
That's the extent of the knowledge you have. Let the courts ferret out the
rest including criminality. That "Ya right" has become only a sneering way
to imply "I know better than anybody about Dhillons' guilt. I've ruled!
Bailiff, get those loudmouths in the back outta my courtroom".

Contrary to your supposition "I realize it is difficult to hear these things about
your beloved guru"... yes, it is difficult but the court's ruling can and must be
accepted. As mentioned before, the Dhillons including GSD are fallible and
must be held to the civil and/or criminal remedies the court renders. On the
other hand, It doesn't help for die-hard's to suggest it's all the divine Will or
the Guru makes no mistakes.

It is to Brian's credit, that the issue has been raised on CofC. Others are not
demonstrating proper Church decorum however. Both sides are tossing spit
wads across the pews. They're only revealing bias and a rush to judgment.

Hi Dungeness, I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Most of the people here who have commented on the court order have done so based on that. I'm starting to see that you really don't want anyone to talk about this at all. Wait for it all to hash out. Why? It's unravelling before our very eyes.
Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me if he's guilty or not. If he's not guilty, good on him and he can try to explain it in his own way. The fact is that he did mess around with huge sums of money. Whether there is criminality involved, that still needs to be determined. This goes contrary to Sant Mat philosophy.
My own opinion is that I will not follow a guru who is hankering after money, associating and helping wealthy satsangis get rich off of the sangat as pay back. My decision. You want to continue to follow him after learning about this, that's your decision.

Adigranth:
Master does as HE wish,
HE fills the empty vessels,
HE empties the filled ones,
Master does as HE wish.

If we think while emptying HE was committing a mistake,
then we actually require more time, maybe more births.

One Initiated, I think he and his pals were busy "emptying" and devaluing the shareholders' stock values. I also think he and his buddies ran out of time trying to cover it up/paying it back.

All of my life trusted RSSB to be clean ..... Disappointed to know all this . Whole family has devoted their precious time towards these gurus for what .... To know that they are responsible for financial frauds . Disappointed!
Shame RSSB

Amar I have addressed the issue to you multiple times. The HC order is an order to pay the money owed to the Singh brothers directly to Daichi. If you think it’s an order of fraud then sHOW it here. You have no idea what the order even says instead you are going by other people’s “conclusions”.
So yes there is money which may belong to the Singh brothers which are with other entities. According to the court 56 entities. Nothing illegal about that. Stop the nonsense of making it look like some sort of guilt has been established.

Amar you say
“Vijay, yes, we're all in essence all the same. ”
If you really knew this for a fact you would not write what you do. Your negative tone has impressed Brian so much that he has written multiple blog posts on it.
I will say it again we are all god in human form. Stop the negative talk and see the beauty in everyone.

Hi Vijay
You wrote
"It's very similar to those museums that were found to have Nazi plunder in their galleries.

The museums didn't loot the art, but according to a court ruling, they had to return the art to its previous owners."

They have to return the art because it was stolen.

Gurinder et al are the recipients of stolen funds. Therefore they must return all that money, and the interest they agreed to pay.

But they were only loaned the money.
They are guilty of breaking the law with each day that passes that they continue to break their promises.

Baba Ji please pay your delinquent bills now, encourage your wife and sons to do so. At least the $500 million dollars owed to Daiichi.

You took all that money as loans. The High Court, after much deliberation and many audits, determined you were liable to return the stolen monies.

Just return it all, as you had already promised to do so..... Before the Serious Crimes Division digs deeper into this scandal. One of India's biggest financial scandals in history. And all the participants, Radha Soami Satsang Beas Satsangis every one, sworn to be loyal to you, and many, your business associates.

Pay now or pay later, with growing interest.

Amar you wrote to dungerees your decision. Good for you. My decision is I completely trust my Guru. So it’s the opposite of yours. 2 different views but I will not diss you for your view. Won’t call your glasses tinted or your faith blind or your burritos crappy or your parties shitty like you have. No one has told you to believe anything you have all the right to do what you want but when you are negative and judgemental you are just lowering your own self. Sorry but that’s the way I see it.

P.s but hey it gets you airtime on Brian’s blog.

Hi Vijay
If we are all God in human form than what is the problem with acknowledging a brother's difficulty paying their debts, with an offer to help?

But I'm not sure we are all just God in human form. I think we all have some flaws.

And I think some of us don't really believe the Religare board, the SEBI, the High Court, Malvinder, the infirm and indigent patients that once had access to care but no more, are also human beings with human rights.

Honoring facts, with a helpful attitude, smiling attitude, seems the best way to avoid harm.

But claiming someone doesn't need to pay their debts simply because you love them and the idea they are delinquent is too insulting to you personally, when nearly a billion dollars have been embezzled, affects others' lives much more negatively than anything written here, because it is theft from Healthcare patients and others.

Ignoring the harm to others, rather than respecting that they are also human beings who have the same rights as the ones you love, even though you may not know them at all, is, I believe, what you are trying to encourage. But sometimes to really live that way involves speaking out on behalf of fair play, fair treatment, honesty, and on behalf of the victims. Sometimes it means acknowledging wrong doing. Sometimes it means acknowledging that a brother or sister needs our live and our help to live responsibly, transparently, and honestly.

You see, God isn't just in the people you know and love. God is in everyone.

If you see God in them, naturally you would encourage your brother to make amends and offer your assistance.

It's called Ahimsa, harmlessness.


To say his his own sons and wife all colluded together without his knowledge is laughable

Golly, that would be laughable. Actually though I never intended that... I
meant he might have received updates from one of "wife/sons/associates"
who was singly involved in the shenanigans. But, I 'spose they coulda all
been and drawn straws every day to see who hadda keep "the old man"
in the dark.

Well, Brian Ji, in his ferocious zest for truth and the salvation of the blind, has
publicly shamed me for my laughable statement.

I'm sorry you were so cruelly misled.

Spence firstly you never answered my question that I asked you. Secondly how are you helping? Many regular commenters on this blog agree that you are doing no such thing.
The only help the master (both outer and inner) needs from any of us is to Do our meditation. That’s it


Sometimes it means acknowledging that a brother or sister needs our live and our help to live responsibly, transparently, and honestly.

Lemme suggest that there have already been indefatigable efforts
by the CofC brethern to set the Dhillons on the path of righteousness ,
to gently remind that poor brother and his family of the debts they
must pay, of their need to walk a mile in fraud victims' shoes, to get
on their knees, acknowledge wrongdoing, and to apologize to God,
flock, and victims.

I wager everyone here by now knows of the court's ruling and agrees
the debts must be repaid. I suspect it's even sifted into the Dhillons'
consciousness too. Does anyone really think the Dhillons are all greedy
scumbags scheming to find a way to avoid paying off those debts, that
they're concocting a plan to jet off to a country without an extradition
treaty, or to stall in hopes a sugar daddy will step in and make it all go
away?

Personally, I believe the sermons are premature. They've been repeated
so often, it could be construed as cruel and inhuman punishment. Besides,
If the good brethern in CofC really believe "God is in everyone", don't ya
think we can count on the Dhillons to see the light too. Don't ya?

Vijay needs to acknowledge that his guru has had his assets frozen and forced to pay money back to the court.

GSD and his family and personal friends have been named by the court to pay back money that is owed. Can you admit that? Or are you going to use circular references and pretend it didn't happen.

Dungeness, you're crazier than I thought.

You're also afraid to say something substantial so you rant sarcastically all the time to avoid being vulnerable to having your ideas dissected. Make a statement for a change. Be at least slightly bold. It's the internet for christ's sake. Nobody is going to be able to hold you to anything.

If you say "this Puri dude with the 1980's hats who I know very little about might be dumb, but he is GOD" at least you'd be saying something with some power behind it and something we can disagree or agree with.

"My decision is I completely trust my Guru."

I wonder if you'd say you obey him too, because the two are supposed to go together. Your Baba said for years "don't talk about this path online, and don't upload videos or pictures or start chat groups about it."

All his devoted chelas dismissed his requests and demands and instead went wild on social media with their millions of bad giphy and blingee versions of "RADHA SWAMI GEE!' images with baba surrounded by glittering hearts and other crap.

In response to your claim of being a devoted disciple of your money hungry goon of a baba, allow me to quote the immortal words of Kool Keith- I Don't Believe You.


You're also afraid to say something substantial so you rant sarcastically all the time to avoid being vulnerable to having your ideas dissected.

No, I rant to avoid being like Lucy Van Pelt of Charlie Brown comics fame.

Ya know, the one who dispenses psycho-babble from her booth then sez
"Five cents, please".

We have an abundance of those already.

Amar and Jessie I love love love how bothered you are that someone like me actually exists. That I think the way I do. Again I will not stoop down to your negativity. Good day guys and lots of love to everyone. 😊

"Someone like me" a religious person who chose a random punjabi businessman to worship? Not an extremely enviable position to be in, Vijay. Nobody is bothered by you. I just personally think you're stupid.

I made the stupid mistake of getting trapped in a cult for years, too. Not a big deal, but I wish me from today could have stopped my younger self from being a dumbass.

Vijay, you don't even know what you are writing, when you're writing it.

Everyone with any sense of discrimination and self worth should be bothered with the fact that there is someone like you in the world. You epitomize the kind of person guru's, masters and these pundits make their money off of, to live a life of entitlement and luxury.

By the way, I'm not being negative, I'm a realist. I see, deduce, question, and make an assessment based on what's available.

You haven't responded to my question regarding GSD having his assets frozen and ordered by the court to pay the money back. How convenient for you. Lots of love to you as well, but hope you are, somewhere in the depths of that denial, starting to think about what's happened in the last year regarding the antics of the guru, his family and friends.

You think by writing in defense of GSD you're scoring brownie points. You're not. Do you think he'd be approaching your bank with a check to repay your delinquent loans? I can safely say no. He's playing his part, and you continue to follow him in delusion. If you're comfortable with that, good on you. This is not hate, just an analysis of my interpretation. When you don't agree with what I say, or you don't have an answer for it, you throw in that I am being negative and hateful. That's not me, that's your conscience speaking out. You're scared of the reality that's coming out.

Doesn't bring me joy, to tell you the truth. I just hope you at least consider the possibility of what has transpired could be true. That's all.

I think I'm going to have chole bhaturey for lunch today. It's a beautiful sunny day, so gonna go have some fun, practice my mindfulness and be one with the chole bhaturey. Have an awesome day!

Amar, people who go to church and pray for the welfare of themselves and their dear ones, do so also after the local priest, Bishop, Cardinal or even pope, is found to have trespassed the law.

There have been so many popes, kings, presidents and other leaders and charismatic people to were found guilty of this or that crime without any consequence for the office.

The behaviour of Trump f.e. will not make an end to the need for the office of president.

And … as far as the stories goes … his uncle didn´t want to accept the role of guru and tried to escape in the darkness of the night. When a believer throw himself before his car he came to understand something. He was given to the masses as their guru and these masses would never accept him to go.

These gurus are not free, they are the possession of an jealous mass irrespective what they do … these masses will not let go of him.


Um I can't believe that you think those stories are true. Even if these gurus were stopped by mobs, they could still have escaped later. They all travel. Gurinder flies in a private jet all over the earth, man. He's under absolutely no unavoidable pressure to maintain his connection to the family cult. As I've said before and also advised, Gurinder should retire in the philipines with his nasty greedy wife and start a harem of sorts with his billions. He could shave his beard, change his name, and nobody will ever know who he is other than the rich idiot with all the women.

And conflating a local priest with 10 parishioners with a guy who calls himself god and has millions upon millions of people sending him money is quite different. Even the pope is considered a sinful person who just holds an important position in the church. Popes often get fired. Family gurus do not and cannot. There is no way that an RSSB guru can ever get fired. There is no office with which to take up a complaint.

Do not compare apples to oranges, or guys who give you bread and wine to guys who steal a billion dollars and talk for 30 minutes a week to poor people who give him even more money.

RSSB is a horrible evil. It is a disgusting cult. I'm bored of its defenders.

Amar I am not trying to earn any brownie points. Call me whatever you want like I said I won’t stoop to your negativity. Enjoy your chole Bhature. 😊

Hi Vijay. I really did enjoy the choley bhaturey. Too heavy actually, seriously needed a nap afterwards!

Brownies have eggs anyways, that's a no no.

Happy meditation!

Amar
FYI Whole Foods has the yummiest vegan brownies.

Jesse, it doesn´t matter if these stories are true or not and whether I believe them or not.
It is about the office that popes, kings, presidents and gurus hold and how that office is related to the need, will etc of the masses.

A while ago there has been an movie in India in which an actor played the role of one of the hindu gods. Afterwards people flocked around his house for his blessings. Whatever he said to explain that he was just an actor, didn´t matter, they just went on to demand his blessings.
And what to say of the people in India that jumped from roofs thinking they could fly as the characters id in the movie.


That desire, that capacity, that need and WILL to believe of the masses is what matters.
The people in this or that country, social class are better in it than others and some individuals as well.

These religious and spiritual movements of the last century grew and came to full fruitation by the attention that was given to them by the masses … Maha Rishi Mahesh and many others after him WERE MADE famous …. and … ironically people like the owner of this site participated in that spread, like lane and others.

Some are better in keeping an ideal alive than others.

There is a great chance that your president will be vote for again and win again, not withstanding what is brought to the attention of the people.

Damn, this Malvinder and his brother Shivinder are real shit bags. Belonging to RSSB, I don't understand how these guys could go sideways so badly. Their moral compass must have been smashed in their greed for money.

These guys and everyone involved in the Daiichi fiasco should face jail time for their fraud and cover up, not to mention the health risks they could have and probably did force upon the public at large.

The link is below to the Livemint article references quotes from a book published on the generic pharma scandals (Bottle Of Lies: The Inside Story Of The Generic Drug Boom by Katherine Eban).

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/how-ranbaxy-hurtled-towards-a-meltdown-1562861830620.html

dear Um


You wrote: "A while ago there has been an movie in India in which an actor played the role of one of the hindu gods. Afterwards people flocked around his house for his blessings."

India has a special appreciation for Darshan, to say the least. Apparently attendance for healer evangelist Benny Hinn whilst touring India? Errrhummm...... The total attendance for 3 programs was 7.3 million people. They loved the guy. There were some objections, but heck. He probably didn't even serve lunch.

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