Dairy diet causes RSSB initiate to become an ex-satsangi

Since 1970 I've been a vegetarian who eats some dairy products. But over the years I've eaten less and less. Currently I use soy milk and basically only consume dairy in the form of a daily serving of yogurt and half-and-half creamer, plus some occasional cheese.

But I admire people who stick to a vegan diet (vegetarian, with no dairy products). So my admiration extends to the person who calls themselves "ex-satsangi" in the message below that I got via email, and was allowed to share on this blog.

They rightfully point out that dairy animals almost always are treated cruelly. Feeling that eating dairy products isn't compatible with a truly spiritual life, they wrote a letter to the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon.

The answer they got wasn't acceptable, so they became an ex-satsangi. Here's their message. It's well-written and moving. I corrected a few typos and added descriptions of some abbreviations, in brackets

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Hi Brian, I was initiated on the path back in 2000. Since then I’ve done my meditation off and on and have enjoyed it and don’t regret it.

I’ve always scrutinized RSSB [Radha Soami Satsang Beas]  and GSD [Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the RSSB guru] along the way to test the teachings and the man they referred to as Master. I would ask a lot of questions to other satsangis and visit your website for a balanced view of things.

I’ve been to Dera [headquarters of RSSB in India] twice and seen him multiple times at other places around the world. After collecting all the data, I would usually come to the conclusion that I didn’t know if he was a PLM [Perfect Living Master] but that there was enough there to continue on the Radha Soami path.

Even the financial scandal was something that made me raise my eyebrow of course but I didn’t have direct experience with the accusations and didn’t want to be swayed by the nay sayers so I kept an open mind that GSD could be innocent.

Usually, it seemed that sexual scandals were the downfall of other gurus in other paths and were the defining moments exemplifying that gurus are just men with faults like everyone else, so it caught me by surprise when I came across a video from the dairy industry in India. This video was the deal breaker and proved (at least to myself) GSD is not a saint or PLM.

Here is the video on YouTube that I came across entitled "Infiltrating India’s Dairy Industry."

I recommend watching it to the end so you know where I’m coming from. This video shows the exploitation and abuse of sentient beings that not only happens in India but all around the world.

After watching the video, the first thing that came to mind is “does GSD consume dairy and if so how can he justify it and be considered a PLM”. I immediately contacted someone who has traveled with him around the world and asked, “does Baba Ji take dairy?” and the answer was yes but that he gets it from his approved dairies that he inspects himself.

They came up with all kinds of excuses as to why he would partake in this, excuses such as “Well if satsangis in India noticed he wasn’t taking dairy then they would stop taking dairy and those people are so poor that they would become malnourished and the karma from supporting the dairy industry can just be meditated away anyway as nobody is killed in the milking of a cow."

But as you can see in the video and the many more like it from around the world, lives ARE being taken.

Baby male calves are waste products and killed routinely for veal. The dairy cows themselves all end up as beef long before their normal lives would have ended. Breast feeding from another species is not natural and not something we need to do for health and sustenance.

Therefore, if one partakes in it, it is due to ignorance or pleasure. For God in human form to take pleasure in the suffering of other souls is immoral and breaking the 4th vow of a satsangi: to live a moral life. GSD must not know about this abuse therefore he is not a PLM. He’s just another human caught up in tradition and sensory pleasure.

I decided to write him a letter as I’ve always been told, the guru is there for you if you ever have questions. I had to send him a snail mail letter as they don’t take emails. WTF! It’s 2019, come on. Anyway, here is my letter to GSD. I wanted to give him the chance to make this right and defend himself.

Dear Baba Ji,

I am an initiate of yours since 2000. I suspect you already know this as any perfect living master would know who his disciples are.

I’ve also come across some information that any perfect living master should know but apparently you don’t by your participation in it.

That information is the violence, rape and murder in the dairy industry around the world. I have been a vegan for around 12 years with a 3 month revisit of dairy when I went to the Dera and other parts of India 4 and a half years ago.

You see, I figured since the cow is seen as holy and sacred in India, surely it would be fine to take dairy, particularly at the Dera. If Master says it’s fine than who am I to argue. Well I watched this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyV7PLwjZFo

Searching YouTube with the words “Infiltrating India's Dairy Industry” will get the same video as well.

It’s a YouTube video on the dairy industry in India. Anyone who watches this video will be scarred. It is not something that my master would condone let alone participate in.

I immediately reached out to some other satsangis that have spent some time in close quarters with you and they confirmed that you do take dairy but that it’s from your approved Dera farms that only supply to Dera.

Regardless of whether the Dera dairy is the cleanest dairy farm, where none of the cows are forcibly impregnated, where the baby calves are allowed to drink the milk that’s meant for them, where the babies are not ripped away from their mothers and are allowed to bond, where the boy calves are not sent away to become veal, where all the cattle graze in green pastures until the end of their natural lives after they can no longer produce milk, where the cows are not living in their own feces and they don’t suffer from mastitis from over milking...regardless of any of this, people outside the Dera don’t have this luxury and go home supporting an industry of violence, rape and murder around the world.

It only takes a little math and common sense to figure out that the Dera cows have to give birth to produce milk and that 50% of the babies will be male. In a herd of 100 cows, 50 male calves will be born per year.

In 5 years there will be 250 more bulls to feed in addition to 250 new cows. 500 offspring to the original 100 herd that are now too spent to produce any more milk. So now there are 600 head of cattle on this dairy farm and only 250 of those cows are producing milk.

That’s a lot of cattle to feed and shelter for no economic return. Baba Ji, what happens to those non-dairy producing cattle? Are they living the good retired life on some green Dera pastures or are they part of the statistics that make India the largest exporter of beef in the world!! Holy Cow!!!

Baba Ji, why not just exclude dairy from the satsangi diet? Why would a perfect living master partake in this? I can’t believe meditation can burn this kind of unnecessary karma.

We don’t need dairy to survive and it actually isn’t even healthy for us. We weaned off our mother’s breast milk at 2 years old. Why are we drinking the breast milk of another species? We would be grossed out at the thought of drinking our mother’s breast milk or the milk of our wives, daughters. Why do we think it’s natural to drink the milk of a cow or sheep. Perhaps dog milk is fine? Why not dog’s milk? (I’m being facetious obviously).

Anyway, I guess I’m writing to you because this is a deal breaker for me in regards to finding a perfect living master. This might be a break up letter depending on your reply. 

As satsangis there are 4 vows:

1. Meditate
2. Vegetarian diet, no eggs
3. No alcohol
4. Live a moral life

Baba Ji, how are we supposed to get the last one if you can’t even do it?  If you watch the video in this letter you surely agree that there is nothing “moral” about partaking and condoning and paying someone to do this to animals, our fellow souls.

Most people don’t know about this and so it’s understandable that they don’t have a problem taking dairy but a perfect living master should just know this stuff!! He has a different vantage point than the rest of us.

It is because of our dollar that this goes on. It’s also a human rights issue for the poor people who have to do this to animals because they can’t get a different job. What kind of ptsd [post-traumatic stress disorder] must these executioners have after bludgeoning an animal with a sledgehammer???!!

How do they get the cries of a mother cow, pining for her baby that they’ve taken away from her, out of their heads? How do they get the visuals of the blood and gore out of their heads? How do they recover from this in their lives?

What can you say about this Baba Ji? Maybe it’s time to transition your dairies into farm animal sanctuaries. Now that’s seva worth doing!

Thanks for your time

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You’re probably interested in the reply I got from him. Well as I suspected he never replied directly. One of his sevadars replied to me on his behalf with a generic “what do we say about dairy” response. Here it is:

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Dear Brother Radha Soami. Your letter of _____ has been received. Baba Ji has gone through your letter. Regarding your concern about the dairy industry, please know that Saints give us general guidelines to live our life within the framework of Sant Mat principles to help us on the path but ultimately leave it to us to decide the most practical way out to implement them.

The four vows form the foundation on which the Sant Mat philosophy stands. One should avoid hair splitting and maintain a balanced approach to all things in life. Every action that we do is karma. We can't take a step without karma in this world. Even when we breathe, we are committing karmas by inhaling so many germs that are present in the air.

Too much hair splitting becomes counter-productive and often distracts us from our real concern. We must take a practical approach while at the same time find our own comfort level in such matters. Basically we are allowed to take dairy products as in general terms there is no taking of life in obtaining milk from the animal and hence there are limited karmas involved and those can be taken care of by our daily meditation.

It is good to be compassionate to the plight of others. However, you can share with others only what you have. Baba Ji says that if I have $100 in my pocket, I can definitely give $99 to someone. But if I do not have anything in my own pocket what can I give to others?

If we truly want to help others we should first help ourselves. Unless we have happiness within ourselves, how can we share it with others? Most of the time, instead of sharing our happiness with others, we start sharing their sorrows and make ourselves miserable.

It is therefore essential for us to get access to the real happiness which is within our own body through our regular meditation. We should always maintain our balance while being compassionate to others. We need to be practical because ultimately everybody is paying for their karmas.

The purpose of Saints is very different from that of the social reformers. They come here to take us back to the Father. Baba Ji generally gives an example of a toddler who slips into the dirty drain. One fellow comes and cleanses the drain but leaves the child in the drain itself. Another fellow doesn't care much about the drain but picks up the child and cleanses him and ultimately restores him to his parents.

The purpose of the Mystic is to attach us with the Holy Ghost and to free us from the cage of this body, the prison of this world. In Saint Matthew, Christ said, I have not come to create peace. Don't think that by following my teaching you will find this place a paradise for you to live in. This place will remain as wretched and miseable as it is. My purpose is to detach you from this world and take you back to the Father.

Never forget your daily meditation that the Master has assigned to all of us because that alone will help us in experiencing as to who the Master is. Our meditation alone will help us in attaining the tranquillity and happiness in life.

When, after initiation, living in the will of the Master, we perform our devotional exercises regularly as advised at the time of initiation we become receptive to the grace of the Master which is constantly flowing from him to all his disciples. Meditation alone will give us the grace and understanding to go through our life in a happy and grateful attitude. Keep mind in simran during the day and try to transform your restless worldly thoughts into loving Holy Names.

With kind regards,

Yours affectionately,

Sevadar in-charge Correspondence

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If we have all this karma to burn off, what kind of master would condone an unnecessary and unhealthy industry that exploits, enslaves, rapes and ultimately kills animals and their male offspring? That seems like karma that can just be avoided the same way satsangis are told not to eat meat and eggs.

Oh but hang on a second, Indians would hate giving up dairy. Chai tho, paneer tho, lassies tho, raita tho!. So delicious! So the master appeals to culture and tradition instead of truth. Well not my master... anymore!

Thanks for your time Brian…just thought I’d share this with you.

Ex Satsangi

Comments

[Jon Snow]

I think the reply given is practical.Yes cows suffer a great deal to give us milk physically and emotionally but not everywhere or in every farm
If you think the milk you are getting comes from the former kind of dairy you should definitely give up milk
My house was once the home of wild animals now going by the logic I should try to buy smallest house possible to make sure that least number of animals were dislocated
Around 1 million animals are killed by plastic debris in ocean yearly so I should completely stop using plastic

Many of my friends who lives in villages still owns cows and it is considered as a family member
Giving up dairy specially in a country like India is onerous

Anger lust greed sex all are considered abominable in sant mat but hardly anyone can conquer all 4 of them together

Personally I don't think anyone should consume dairy products but again since this blog is always biased towards a particular sect or cult middle path can never be achieved

[JoJo]

India was, and probably is the largest exporter of beef in the world which is not coincidental with the fact it is also the largest dairy producer. The Punjab has a terrible record in terms of cruelty to dairy cows and to think "he inspects all the dairies himself" is absurd. So all the dairies he deals with do not rape the cows, they let the male calves roam the countryside and let the cows nurse their calves rather than tearing them away which bringing emotional agony to the mother? What about the U.S. dairy industry which is equally brutal. Does he inspect those dairies. What about Amy's Kitchen which sells cheese from brutalized dairy cows. In Petaluma a few years ago a woman brought up the plight of dairy cows and asked if he was aware of "the websites" he said yes and then brushed her off saying "not all country abuse cows". In that comment I read it is OK to torture people because "not all countries torture people." I completely agree with you. A PLM would not live on the pain of others. At least a meat cow lives a short but fairly natural life while a dairy cow is tortured for years. I think meat eating is far less harmful so if he wanted to reduce the karmic load he would tell people to swap their milk for meat.

[s*]

Dear Ex satsangi!!
I so much agree with you!!
Thank you for your right searching for truth!!
I cry when I think about the cruwelty and live my life as raw vegan.
My heart and also health feels much much better.
When I go to satsang ground they notice me not eating and drinking milk etc stuff.
Some youngsters find that that very fine and good..
Happily!
I go there because of friends and nature and stillness.
Nothing more,also nothing less..
I love most of the people there.
Happy Very !!!! You mention this!!
Love,
s*

[OshoRobbins]

A Perfect Living Master.
Who KNOWS everything.

That is the core issue here. He should be PERFECT in every way. and KNOW everything.

Its nonsense.

Perfection is a made up concept. An abstraction. Not an actual real thing.

Think about it for a moment.

Physical perfection. But he already had cancer.

Mental perfection. Must not get angry. Logic must be perfect. Must completely understand your question and give you the perfect answer.

Moral perfection. Must be RIGHT in every way. Make good and moral decisions.

Its an impossible standard. Nobody can reach that standard because you are the judge. One person will say he reached it and another will say he has failed.

Jesse will say he is a conman
Amar will say "he's a conman but I don't really know anything and nor do you"

So what is the truth?

The all knowing and super wise Osho Robbins will now tell you. I may as well own that position because Jesse and Amar are going to proclaim it anyway.

So.......here goes......

Enlightenment has ZERO zilch, NOTHING to do with
Morals, code of conduct, behaviour, and perfection.

If you project those onto anyone they are guaranteed to fall short.

The followers of OSHO did that with him too. His answer was clear;
He said "you put me on a pedestal and I keep on cutting the legs."

Osho had no title like "perfect master"

Anyway, my point is this; you create an impossible standard then complain when the guru fails.

Everyone will fail the "perfection" standard. Because perfect does not exist. Its an arbitrary standard like "good"

Also, if someone was all knowing, would he not just play the lottery?

On yes, its against a moral standard.

The truth; everyone is selfish and acts in their own self interest, and this is natural and unavoidable.

To expect anything different is to set yourself up for a fall.

[s*]

Oh and in Holland there was a question about this..and he agreed that it was not good.
The woman said you could do something about it..
He only said I agree..we should not make anyone hurt.
That's all..
Not maybe I do do something about it.
But he might??
It would be a great influence in so many ways for so many!!

[OshoRobbins]

If you stop eating dairy the problem of cruelty is not solved. You are not everyone.
Everyone else carries on and cruelty carries on.
So now will you actively campaign against dairy ?
And GSD should also, right?
Otherwise you have a higher moral standard than he does.

If you don't actively stop the cruelty then you don't really care and just pretend to.

If your own child was being mistreated by someone, would you walk away and say "well I am not mistreating" and "I will speak to the person"
OR
Will you stop the mistreatment no matter what it takes.

That is how we act if we really care. But we don't act that way because we just like the idea of caring.
Makes us feel good.
We did the RIGHT thing.

Or in Jesse's case, the WRONG thing.

[Heyjoe2 where-you-gonna-run-to]

I think everyone should stop breathing that would solve the problem

As to unfertilized eggs, well you're welcome to eat such abominable ovarian discharge staple diet of snakes and the designated latency of baby chickens as long as you don't consume any dairy from cows.

Welcome to the human race custodians of planet earth.

[Heyjoe2 where-you-gonna-run-to]

I've heard Bji actually advocate vegan diet + even considered it as a requisite for satsangis but realized most wouldn't be able to adhere to it. Even those at Dera.

He abolished smoking tobacco though many who were attached to the habit still smoke cigarettes in their own environments.

[Spence Tepper]

The reply was poor and indicative of a photocopy of spirituality, but not true spirituality.

A better reply?

The idea of loving all creatures and harming less is a natural result of our own development. You see the harm done to innocent creatures and have formed a lifestyle around less harm. We should all strive for that.

However, for practical reasons, each person may pick their own lifestyle within the vows.

Ideally that emerges as it has, within you.

Even the clothes we wear are often manufactured in places that abuse human beings.

So the vows are a framework, a solid foundation. But each must build their home. What you are doing is admirable, and can be a great role model for others, so long as it doesn't become the basis of contention.

[Q]

Thoughtful letter from Ex Satsangi! Informative video. The generic reply from Mr. hair splitting sevadar regurgitating outdated ideas about dairy is all rather predictable. A science of the soul? Behold the teacher in need of new education, a seer who does not see, the leader in need of being lead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxrCjmqRTz0&ab_channel=luvthe1950s

[Um]

what the champions of compassion have to say in this matter:
https://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/meat.html

There are plenty more:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=buddhist+monks+eating+meat&t=h_&ia=web

Like most people, who didn't know the practice behind the production of milk, I thought also that Bhuddhists and certainly the clergy, preaching compassion, would not kill and eat animals. One day however I came in contact with a very high ranking Tibetan monk, respected by many who sought his blessings and guidance and he ate meat, almost every day, while his followers would never think of it.

Sometimes I get the feeling that following a path, is brought down to strictly adhering to the rules.

Anyway, all living creatures do live from the [sun]energy accumulated in other living creatures ….. maybe plant are the real saints and compassionate beings as they transform solar energy into their own bodies without killing.

[um]

I thought I should read what was on some other sites regarding eating meat etc.
There i found this what made me smile:

>>Presently, vegetarianism is a fashion and a vanity among the elite and the middle class Hindus. They may not perform sacrifices, worship gods, or practice virtues such as honesty, compassion towards fellow human beings, charity, etc., but would make sure that everyone knows about their preference for vegetarian food because it is the current trend and gives them an aura of superiority in a community that has taken to the filmy practices of pseudo culture and hybrid lifestyles.https://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/concepts/meat-eating.asp

[Mary Thomas]

Excellent points raised here and an extremely lame, misleading and unethical reply from Babaji's sevadar regarding the justification for eating dairy products.
It doesn't wash with me either. There most certainly IS killing involved in ALL dairy products not to mention the painful rape which often leaves cows internally damaged plus many other cruelties involved.
When cows see the Artificial Insemination van arriving at the farm, if they are fortunate enough to still live in a field, they run away as fast as they can and try and hide having experienced the physical torture at a previous session. The A.I. man has to insert virtually his entire arm into the cow's vagina with his steel instrument in hand which often causes internal damage. It's a barbaric, unimaginably traumatic and painful procedure for the cow. The cow cannot escape, it is bound. These Farmers and associate thugs are monsters. They don't respond to the animal's screams of pain and terror.
Then you have the additional emotional torture of both the mother cow and the calf when the baby calf is FORCIBLY pulled away from its mother soon after birth so that humans can drink all the milk intended for the calf.
I lived on a farm as a child and witnessed the horrors. The cows mooing day and night in inconsolable misery and distress for their missing calves and the poor little calves locked up and mooing for their mothers non stop all day and night. The mother cows were so distraught at their calves being taken away, they refused to eat or drink for days and just stood at the gate and refused to budge an inch, calling and crying for their calves, non stop.
The kidnapped calves were locked up in solitary confinement in tiny pens and given powdered milk to drink instead of their mother's milk, which always gave them horrendous diarrhea. Such despicable cruelty. Personally, being a mother myself now, I find it tantamount to diabolical intent in retrospect. Legalised tyranny and slavery.
As a child and still not street wise regarding the level of ignorance and capacity for denial in the minds of adults, I was horrified and deeply disturbed at the evident suffering and agony deliberately inflicted on these beautiful, gentle creatures. Eventually, you have to realise that this planet is very similar to a hellish realm of the sub Astral populated by demons in human form.
If you have ever been with a cow in labour and watched her give birth, you will know it is no less painful, prolonged and agonising than a human birth without pain killers. Cows have the same birth complications we do. The bond between the mother cow and her calf is so powerful and intense, it's virtually indescribable. You have to experience it empathically to understand the depth of mutual love. I can confidently say that cows make much better, tender, loving mothers than quite a few humans.
This deliberate rupture of the maternal bond and domineering imposition of man's selfish and abusive will is precisely what is involved in milk and dairy products, not to mention the horrors of veal as a side kick. Can anyone with even an iota of compassion justify such a basic lack of mercy for the sake of cheap, gross taste sensations and financial profit?
Have heard the same lame excuses for buying goats and cows for poor people in Africa. What does the cow and the goat eat? It's far more economical and requires far less water and land to grow crops. To produce a day's food for a meat eater requires 4000 gallons of water. A day's food for a Lacto Ovo vegetarian requires 1200 gallons of water and a vegan requires only 300 gallons of water for same. No excuse.
This 'milk is necessary' ignorance is an invalid argument put forward in order to justify dairy consumption. It's backward, unscientific thinking. All these abused animals bred in such massive numbers now, sometimes knee deep in sewage filled concentration camps contribute to global warming as well.
How the leader of a spiritual organisation whose word is sacrosanct can permit and justify dairy consumption to millions of satsangis is beyond me. Millions. All told to carry on eating dairy to the detriment of their health and to add to the appalling misery of these sweet, gentle creatures. Totally irresponsible, even from the standpoint of basic common sense and the practical sustainability of the earth's recourses.
If the land is impoverished, then use natural fertilizers and other eco friendly methods to grow crops.
From a moral standpoint, there is no respect for animals. No cow would mind you taking a little milk but these vile, greedy farmers take it all or too much. It's ugly, brutal and unethical. Now they are copying the West in India and mass marketing milk at the cost of the poor, wretched Cow's welfare. Misery Milk.
The REAL karma involved in all this is that in addition to the fact that meat consumption causes cancer, dairy protein, specifically Casein protein in dairy, proves to be even more carcinogenic than meat, fish and egg protein. Professor Colin Campbell proved this beyond doubt and pointed out it is just like turning a tap on and off. Turn on the consumption of dairy and the cancerous tumour immediately starts to grow. Turn the dairy consumption off and the tumour immediately starts to shrink. Cancer tumours grow more rapidly with milk and dairy consumption than they do even with a meat, fish and eggs diet. Cancer LOVES dairy. It's like prime fertilizer for cancer cells.
It doesn't matter whether the dairy comes from organic and grass fed cows or factory farmed animals, it is all carcinogenic and also clogs the arteries leading to heart disease. You can refer to Dr. Michael Gregor and Google other Vegan doctors as well as the Hippocrates Institute in Florida for additional confirmation. These are scientific facts, not someone's home spun, philosophical, cloud cuckoo land meanderings.
This is why so many satsangis wind up dying of cancer. If the karma was worked off in mediation, why the cancer? The karma is NOT worked off by mediation. If it were that easy, we could just do double meditation and eat meat as well - if we didn't have a conscience.
We are all ONE in this creation, we can't justify killing or cruelty to animals or those weaker or unable to defend themselves in order to fill our stomachs like dangerous, sophisticated barbarians and at the same time claim to be aspiring spiritual beings.
There are so many countless delicious protein rich alternatives to dairy available now, there really is no excuse for not quitting dairy anymore. Health wise, eating dairy is suicidal. We have the science now to prove it. Going Vegan is an all win choice on all levels. No big sacrifice if your veggie already.
Despite the hype, cow’s milk actually robs our bones of calcium. Animal proteins produce acid when they’re broken down, and calcium is an excellent acid neutralizer, so … you can see where this is going. In order to neutralize and flush out the acids, our bodies have to use the calcium that the milk contains—as well as some from our own stores. So every glass of milk we drink leaches calcium from our bones. That’s why medical study after medical study has found that people who consume the most cow’s milk have significantly higher fracture rates than those who drink little to no milk. Again, satsang is not going to deliver the truth on this one.
Dairy also causes leukemia and agonising middle ear infections in children. Have acne? Stop the dairy and watch it vanish. Asthma is also linked to dairy. Children's chest infections too. Fancy Kidney stones? How about Bronchitis? All linked to dairy. Dairy is extremely mucous forming, stop taking it as an experiment and discover the truth for yourself.
Don't forget, the dairy industry just like the meat, fish and egg industry is a multi billion dollar profit making machine, these industries don't want you to know the medical consequences of consuming animal protein whether it's the offending meat, fish, dairy or eggs. People were also once told smoking was good for the throat in order to sell cigarettes. Eventually, the damning information and truth comes out but sadly, often when it's too late and many have died of the consequences or are already suffering disease due to the cover up, lies and misinformation spewed out by the Government and the meat and dairy industry.
The level of ignorance in the reply you received from the sevadar is obvious to anyone who is informed and has researched the subject. If people are deaf to the agonised moans and cries of suffering, tortured animals, let them research the independent, objective, scientific research (not the Government construed lies) regarding the medical consequences of consuming animal protein which includes ALL dairy products.
People are being lied to by the Government. Such mendaciousness and ruthless exploitation for the sake of financial profit needs to be exposed and held in public contempt at every possible opportunity.
Nothing can be more indicative of the absence of true spirituality than a lack of compassion and mercy for the vulnerable and defenseless.
For those who mock Animal Rights' activists, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has found a direct correlation between cruelty to animals and cruelty to children. They are intimately and inseparably linked.
Thank you for making these very important points, Ex Satsangi and for exposing the veritable cringe worthy reply from the sevadar who obviously doesn't have a clue what he is talking about. The short documentary was sickening, sadly I have seen it all before in the documentary called, 'Earthlings' and other documentaries of evil animal abuse.
Loved reading your post. Your letter to Babaji was heart warming, wise, compassionate and commendable in it's sincerity and genuine concern. Shame about the evasive and totally irrelevant white wash reply!
Grateful thanks also to Brian for publishing and bringing this to people's attention as a classic example of 'up the creek' advice from the powers that be at Dera.

[manjit]

Thanks for posting this Brian & anonymous poster.

I finally turned vegan on Saturday 27th July!

I didn't watch the embedded video and don't intend to, but earlier today showed this to my mother (who is neither vegan or veggie, but eats very little actual meat) off-handedly saying "isn't this a coincidence seeing as I only turned vegan a few days ago". She asked to see the video, so I handed her my phone and walked away. I returned a while later to see her in what looked a state of shock, and tears, which was upsetting to me. She said "don't watch this video. How can people be so cruel." (in punjabi!). Some hour or so later, she was in the same state of shock (minus the tears) and says she also doesn't want to drink milk or eat cheese. We'll see how that goes!!

Asides from a few occasions as a baby and young child when I apparently spontaneously rejected meat dishes that were fed to me, I grew up eating meat, fish, eggs and dairy. At aged 12, I came across Charan Singh's "The Path" and almost immediately gave up meat, fish & eggs. I haven't eaten them since (apart from free-range "Happy eggs" which I re-started about 8 years or so ago), almost 30 full years now.

As with many other things, I am extremely grateful to RSSB & the Radhasoami doctrine/teachings for encouraging me at such a young and impressionable age to turn lacto-vegetarian. I believe if I hadn't come across RS per se, I would still have ultimately turned veggie at some point.....but if my uncle was aunt, so some such....

That said, I also believe it is my past association with RS that has prevented me from educating myself more fully about the dairy industry (I still haven't, to be fair). I first had a discussion with a work colleague around 17 years ago when I was confronted with the suffering inherent in the production of milk, cheese & leather. Although I had "left" RS by then and my vegetarianism was purely an ethical (so called compassionate) decision, I neither had a coherent response to the arguments (a rare occurrence, ha :), nor the honesty, integrity & most importantly courage to look into the reality of the dairy industry (because I loved cheese & milk too much!!).

This is because of the lingering "bullshit" effect of Radhasoami dogma, doctrine & theology; and, it IS bullshit.

RS dogma is the product of outdated & outmoded medieval Indian conceptualisations surrounding what are in reality non-conceptual experiences. These dogmas, doctrines & "tenets" are crystalisations, stagnant, inert relics of what were, once, vibrant, LIVING expressions of an overflowing inner sense of love and compassion for all conscious (God) beings. Not "laws", "rules", "tenets", but spontaneous, natural behaviours.

In the religion of Radhasoami, these past living traditions and teachings (always followed by a very small group of people) have stagnated & crystalised into incoherent "tenets". And, just like any religion, the "law" is far more important than love, compassion, all done spontaneously without the thought of reward. So, we find ourselves in the utterly absurd position of RS satsangis refusing food items, reading all the labels on every item of food in case there is a food item with <0.1% animal by-products not on the official RS sanctified list.....but Gurus like Gurinder Singh rock up to satsang in fully leathered out Bentleys at Haynes Park, just because when Nanak or Kabir were alive 500 years ago, cows were considered part of the family, looked after, and milked by the same family that was to drink it! This is NOT the case NOW.

As David Lane has very, very astutely observed, in Radhasoami tradition vegetarianism is not an act of compassion, or love, or understanding.......it is an act of imagined "purity". It is "purity" the religious minded, ego-centric satsangis are after. They will trade their so-called "purity" for the "bliss of sach khand". A transaction has been made, they believe. Actual real Love, compassion or concern for the actual animals is, in my experience, a non-issue for the vast majority of satsangis, especially the native Indian sangat.

So we have it here; people defending Gurinder and RS for not upholding the essence of his alleged teaching - love & compassion - and updating the "tenets" of his dogmatic religion to reflect the REALITY of the current world we live in; ahh, that is the problem with religions & dogma, so inflexible, so rigid.......so dead.

These same people would probably need medicating if they accidentally eat one crisp containing flavouring E7487590 or whatever, because it's not on Gurinder's sanctified list! Oh no....my "purity" has been lost!!!

The irony is, there is no "purity" where "purity" is one's main concern; such ego!!

We live in a vast inter-connected web of suffering, and we are all linked to each other. It is impossible to escape causing suffering to others. It is impossible to be "pure". From the clothes we wear to the fuel we use to the food we eat. Suffering. All we can do is to the best of our ability to not engage in the causes of suffering as best we can, try our hardest, and if we fail (like I have done over & over again for not turning vegan 17 years ago!) not be too hard on ourself. There is no more or less purity in not eating rennet than there is in eating mass produced cheese of any kind (Ps, haha to the idea Gugu is either not eating dairy overseas, or is personally inspecting the dairies there!!!). It doesn't make it more or less "right" just because some cult's dogma says so, reality isn't interested in lazy dogma!

Several weeks ago I wondered about 2 different things; 1) how it is so many people associated with RS don't really get anywhere, experience wise, with it (and, I don't include OBEs, radiant forms, initial lights and sounds in that.....childrens playthings!! :) & 2) isn't it strange how so many associated with RS also agree with the hateful, ignorant, uncompassionate, divisive etc actions and ideology of Donald Trump when it is clear that in no way whatsoever is anything Trump stands for compatible with the ideals of RS teachings!

Then it became clear, the two are related. RS is for some - most - about ultra, hyper inflation of the sense of self, and the sense of self privilege. I will not eat this rennet in cheese, a deal has been struck, I will surely attain the bliss of at least the 2nd region in this life!! I'm so pure, so clever, maybe even "Sach Khand" awaits!!!

There is a reason hardly anybody "realises" anything beyond the personal (ie. in RS terminology beyond "kal") in any Radhasoami group, except the infrequent visions of radiant forms or paradisaical heavens which are NOT the domain of mystics like Nanak or Kabir etc.

Ego, ego, ego. Hardly anybody understands the power of love & compassion in this. Love opens up all the barriers to "inner ascent" or whatever you want to call it. It is not some magical 5 words which originate in time & culture, it is not which businessman baba you have been magically initiated by, it is not how closely you follow "tenets"........it is, purely & simply, love that opens all the gates to the "Divine" imo & ime.

Spencer wrote in another thread:

""Kindness, generosity, brotherly love.... Let these be your religion."
Nanak

Those words tower so high they disappear from our view.. They are so great, so immense, we can hardly understand them. But they are compelling."

This is a sentence that is staggeringly beautiful, imo. It will not be understood by most who are striking bargains to attain some perpetual state of personal bliss that will never materialise because it never existed.

Jesus said the same, the exact same, thing......and now look what is being done in his name. Shame on us all.

Sach Khand is HERE, NOW. "God" is not something separate from creation.

How will we choose to treat God? Perhaps She will let us in if we treat her with a little more love, compassion & understanding?

[Daljit]

I feel that there is almost same level of animal cruelty involved in milk production as egg or meat production.

[Amar]

Um, that's a stupidly written article. Hinduism, for those that actually follow it, are vegetarian. Those born Hindu, but not practicing it, will obviously decide to eat meat or not. Do you think Nanak told everyone that hey, you can become a follower but you can choose to be a practicing sikh, or a non practicing one? How does that even make sense?

There is obviously a clear difference between one practicing the faith vs being born into a Hindu family, but not practicing it. That article quoted above is written by an ignorant person. Vegetarianism might be a fad world wide in recent decades, but for those truly following Hinduism, Sikhism, or Jainism, or RSSB, it has always been a way of life.

As for the milk debate, I recently was at a GSD Q&A session, and a young girl asked about hormones in the milk. He said if it bothers you, then find an alternate source. She said what if I can't find one. He then countered that if not available, there are soy and almond milk substitutes. I don't see anything wrong with those answers. If milk caused you to leave RSSB, I think "ex-satsangi" had other concerns beyond the milk issue which culminated to the break. Either way, it's his/her decision and good for this person to truly scrutinize and develop a healthy relationship with their moral, ethical, and spiritual alliances.

I rarely drink milk for the same kind of reasons, but also because humans shouldn't be drinking milk past a certain age. My opinion only, and that's what satisfies my conscience.

[Sai]

Hi all, RSSB is fake. He is no true guru I wasted my time there for 20 years. Hope you guys bailout from the path soon.

[SP]

Osho,

3 things are given during initiation. Simran, Dhyan and Bhajan.

You keep repeating meditating on the 5 holy words is not necessary to merge into the One.

You are right in a way as the primary role of Simran is to help you with Dhayan and Bhajan. It's these two that finally matter. Simran facilitates or rather polishes your ability to do dhayan and bhajan.

This is not meant to in any way trivialise the importance of simran - for as the true masters say; it's only the simran bit that is really in the hands of the individual.

And yes, it's usually 5 words, but no stopping a perfect master giving an individual just one completely unrelated word.

[Amar]

To be honest, I think the mechanization of the agricultural and food industry we have today has created the issue.

The simple villages around the Punjab to small towns anywhere in the world used to have a local village dairy or small town dairy farmer where the milk used to be produced and locally consumed. No large scale "factories" or mechanized facilities like we see today. So the local dairy farmer would maintain his stock very well because it met the needs of the local demand and there was a balance built into the system. These days it is purely profit driven and disgusting what the industry has become. Not just for dairy but for all aspects of the food supply chain.

We do what we can and create a footprint in the world as small as possible to make sure as an individual, we're not taking more than we need.

Not preaching, just giving my opinion.

[UM]

Amar, later I i read this article:
https://www.hinduwebsite.com/divinelife/essays/veg.asp
Maybe that suits your taste better.

Greatmaster started his "Submission" with the following words:
Man came first.
Religions were instituted later for the evolution of his soul.

These days, I don't thing in terms of God, soul; creator and creation. when i try to understand what it is being alive. Being alive, is the only thing I know of, the rest is just HEAR-SAY if I am honest.

So these words from Great Master tell me that man, the human being, first existed as a NATURAL phenomena and that later developed CULTURE, culture being the ever changing blueprint as to how to deal with life, others etc. based upon the experience of previous generations.

As a natural being, without tools, the first entities that can be labeled human, had to live in a place were everything he needed was directly available in his habitat, Pondering about the human being one easily can understand he lived in a subtropical climate, and mostly from fruits, nuts and seeds. If you ever tried to catch an hare after running after the beast you will understand what I mean.

For reasons unknown to me either he left that place or was forced to leave that place, wandering to the north to the COLD. This cold forced him to compensate for the loss of solar energy and he developed means to that goal.

The outcome is what you can read in history.

If there are no nuts, fruits etc around for the picking an you are driven by instinct to stay alive as an individual and as a species. You have to find a replacement for these natural foods.

So what do you do … you turn foods that are not suited for you, even poisonous sometimes, into "artificial nuts and fruits". How do you do that well by learning how to hunt, farm and most of all the use of fire. Fire, the artificial sun, adds energy and gives otherwise indigestable plant and animal products, the CONSISTANCY and TASTE of fruit and nuts.

So whatever we see now is nothing more than the adaptation of the human being to surroundings he SHOULD not live in.

Religion has been the means to turn these things in rules before there were countries, kingdoms etc.

No do read what great master said again, maybe you will understand what I wanted to write.

His grandson told me to try to live a natural life in a natural way … that is an adminition to think about what is natural and what is cultural. Natural man has no knowledge about soul and god, it is a cultural invention to explain what cannot be explained.

[Heyjoe2 where-you-gonna-run-to]

Dalai Lama eats meat as advocated by his physician / doctor. Yet he's regarded as the spiritual leader of an entire population and religious theology.

Ahimsa is a long standing Hindu principle. India before advanced western influences was largely vegetarian and in cases of Jains and some other sects strictly vegan and almost exclusively pedantic about non harm to any creatures.

RSSB tries to keep it practical with minimal amount of unnecessary suffering. Modern dairy producers have created an impact on the lives of the animals bred for dairy production beyond normal conditions.

It's up to the individual to determine where they draw the line in terms of their own conscience with regard to dairy consumption.

If RSSB dictated veganism it could be considered a good principle but could also become an excessive leaning towards ritualized rules and not the primary motivation of following the core objectives.

If diet becomes the primary focus of the individuals purpose it can become outward in approach which is not the gist of the teaching. Moderate lesser cruelty lifestyle is advocated.

Many satsangis are vegan today and growing in popularity. Those that make the choice to contributing to the animals well being is admirable and their conscious approach should benefit theirs and the animals lives.

But it's not regarded as prerequisite to follow the principles of empathy beyond those boundaries unless the individual has searched his / her own conscience and made it their personal choice.

[Jesse]

When Baba Gurinder calls himself a perfect living master who literally acts perfectly moral in every way in books that he prints, it is YOU who puts him on a pedestal. He's just being a normal guy, riding a golf cart around, selling initiating people into a cult that exists for the sole purpose of worshiping him. Like normal people do.

This is how it works according to the eminent spiritual thinker, Osho Robbins, who has the subtlety of an atomic bomb with his latest push to get you to worship the dead godman that he now worships, Osho.

[Jesse]

"Hinduism, for those that actually follow it, are vegetarian."

Amar, you should know that this is absolutely untrue. There are very detailed prescriptions for how, why and when to both sacrifice animals and eat them throughout Hindu scriptures from the most ancient to the most current. The Dasaswamedh Ghat, Lord Ram's hunting etc. should come immediately to mind. Vegetarians from what I gather are mostly of Vaishnavite backgrounds. I've personally watched Goat sacrifices in kalighat temple in Kolkata where I believe they give meat as prashad as well which happens in Shakta mandirs. To say Kali worshipers are not Hindu is to deny the existence of anything we could meaningfully call Hinduism.

"for those truly following Hinduism, Sikhism, or Jainism, or RSSB, it has always been a way of life."

Not true for Sikhism either. Or, it's at least not essential to be vegetarian to be Sikh. Goats are sacrificed at the Hazoor Sahib Takht in Maharashtra, and always have been. Nihang Singhs eat meat "maha" prashad. There is absolutely no consensus on the meat eating issue in Sikhism, and as far as I can tell the introduction of vegetarian only gurdwara food was only to please everyone. Even the famous line usually said to be Nanak saying we can't eat meat has been disputed for a long time, but most popularly and recently by that Nihang Nidar Singh guy and his cult who say it means the exact opposite.

Jains, and Radha Soamis, are the only ones who from the their beginning have banned meat. Not even Buddhists have consensus on that issue as far as I know.

[Heyjoe2 where-you-gonna-run-to]

Gurinder Singh Dillon never called himself any such thing, people like Jesse and Amar and Spence and many others whether practicing or non practicing initiates have either accredited or discredited that title to him.

He knows who he is, but probably nobody else does, unless they've met him at his own level of corresponding communication.

[Jesse]

Since I'm already here opining for no reason, I'll add one last thing about the letter itself that this post is about.

"Breast feeding from another species is not natural and not something we need to do for health and sustenance."

Can a dreadlocked vegan ever speak without uttering this mantra? Vegans are more often than not mentally ill people or just the types who will follow any popular trend. Sure, it's not "natural" to drink another animals milk, though extracting b vitamins from plant substances in factories made of bricks, pipes and fluorescent lights is not really something that occurs in nature either. Unless of course there are nutritionally fortified almond milk factories built and maintained by deer and bluebirds somewhere that I'm unaware of. Anything is possible in the ONE.

This is actually one of the few times I'll side with RSSB who I think runs a few of its own dairies anyway and minimizes the amount of milk it gets from less humane sources. Though I could be wrong. If they don't already, they should start their own dairies. There is enough money for it and more important than dreadbutter vegan feelings, it could help bring back many of the endangered indigenous cows of India, of which only 30 or so of 111 recorded species still remain.

Vegans are hypocrites by default, as all judgemental puritanical moralists are. Unless that guy runs naked in an old growth forest and is just fasting and waiting to starve to death, he too is contributing to exploitative industries like everyone else. Since he wrote an email, he's obviously burning fossil fuels acquired through large scale genocidal war against Arabs, with a computer made with heavy metals that will later be dumped into the ground to poison Chinese and Fillipino kids so that Americans and other rich countries can "save money" to buy more useless things that too will be dumped into the ground to poison even more poor kids.

Good on him for leaving one cult. Sadly the cultish mentality still has complete over his mind and he's run head first into another kind of cult.

I sense a pattern.....

[j]

In the entire span of recorded history, there's never been a vegan civilization. Not one we know about anyway.

We actually know very little about the long term effects of veganism. It's becoming evident though that many who try veganism find themselves forced to give it up.

I've lived in vegan communities (macrobiotic) and have seen the effects of a no-dairy diet on children. Let's just say it's not good.

As for cruelty, far more animals die in agriculture than in livestock farming. They are small animals, and not very cute, but they're sentient beings just like our friends the cow and the pig.

[Amar]

Jesse, I see your points. Using the word all, is not necessarily the correct term. I still stand by my opinion of what Nanak wrote. The people that come afterwards will justify anything they want to satisfy their agenda, including RSSB. You never see any mention of Soami Ji smoking a hookah. Jaimal Singh saw to it that it be removed from the writings. Agra lines at least acknowledge it.

Teachings made palatable so the sikhs where Jaimal Singh preached would accept it. Who wants a guru who smokes a hookah. Blasphemy!

If GSD doesn't want the title PLM, perfect saint, etc. then every book that gets republished should have it revised and/or stricken from the texts. But it still gets propagated. So which is it? Is it meant like a fishing net to appeal to all and everyone? What's the point?

Nothing is at is seems. Words get removed, massaged, rewritten and revised to suit any number of agendas. What is the truth, what isn't who knows, if anyone ever knew in the first place.

[s*]

OMG!
I just saw the video..
I feel really sick..
How is this hell posible..
Then one thinks about everything in this world..and God..
So much pain so much cruwety unbelieveble really so so sick this is!

😰

[Jesse]

"Gurinder Singh Dillon never called himself any such thing"

Hi, I personally sell dozens of books that refer to me as a living god. But I've never verbally called myself god so haha you're all dumb and you can't catch me!

Also, I'll be visiting your town soon to hold meetings in which I'll be worshipped. Please donate.

Gurinder Singh Dhillon

[Jesse]

Amar, I like being around smokers actually and I find tobacco to be pleasant. Thinking of a guru puffing on the hookah has a romantic renaissance vibe to it. I wonder if David Lane puffed with Faqir Chand.

The only time I ever smoked hookah in India was with some Haryanvis though, and it was strong harsh tobacco. If i remember correctly it was lit with gobar aka cow shit too. Nothing at all like the sweet fruit pulp shisha from the Arab places and the wood coal they use to burn it.

[Amar]

My dad's uncle smoked a hookah. I remember going to the village when I was like 5 or 6 and when he wasn't looking I took a puff. Nasty stuff. Sounded cool tho when he did it. Bad ass sitting on the munja percolating away, very cool.

Don't recall the cow shit as fuel, only for lighting the fire in the open kitchen, lol.

[s*]

So that is why Soamiji thought he was the real Saint.
Because of the hookah..(might be)

[Tim Rimmer]

Heck Mary that was a full-on comprehensive response to the post! I always had an issue with assessing the so-called ‘karma’ associated with the eating of dairy as compared to say eating unfertilised eggs from free range hens ‘happy eggs’ (as Manjit calls them). Even though I don’t eat eggs (except for the odd one in a cake), there is such a vast difference in the scale of how I see the ‘inherent suffering’ between the two, that this in itself broadsides the whole karma concept as expounded in RSSB dogma.

What also comes to mind however is how we truly sustain a vegan diet, given many folk live in urban centres and do not grow their own food. We have wealthy relatives who are heading down the non-dairy, vegan track, who spend a fortune on organic food, a great deal of it imported long distances. This is not practical or possible for many folk at the present time in my view. There is also the issue of access/cost for others. My wife used to work in an organic food store and it was clear those who needed the food most (especially for improved health) could not afford it. Given also the looming and building threat of climate imposed effects on what can be grown, where and how - what do we eat?
A friend and I have been milling this over for several years. We’re both lucky enough to have a small block of land (adjacent to a small urban centre), where we are experimenting growing various foods using Permaculture principles - as I still work elsewhere, it’s a slow process (and there’s a lot to learn). Ever tried growing chickpeas? I’m hoping to give lentils a go later on in the year.

What I’m saying generally is - it’s all well and good going vegan, but remember if folk are not growing food themselves, then one has to critically look at the food miles/energy etc associated with those delicious imported organic brazil nuts, sunflower seeds, quinoa etc (I’m guilty!) Omnivores obviously have more options when it comes to sourcing protein. How do we vegetarian/vegan types source ours? Particularly if we knock out dairy.

I’m also wondering how the likes of RSSB respond to sustainability of food sources? What about protein grown in the laboratory? Is it meat? - it certainly has not been ‘killed’. How many of us would be willing to start munching on locally grown powdered locusts if our imported supply of organic nuts literally dries up? Food for serious thought and action imo.

All the best

[Q]

Got some bad news for ya J. According to the notorious vegan hater Ted Nugent, his son Rocco is now a vegan. Haha! Veganism didn't used to be a thing. Same sex marriage didn't used to be a thing. Even interracial marriage didn't used to be a thing. These are all signs of progress, of an evolving civilization. “The arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”

[Georgy Porgy]

Most of you have lost the plot.
I’ve not even initiated and I reckon I understand ten times what the path is trying to achieve better than all you ex-satsangis, that have fallen off the wagon. Truth be told you should not have got on in the first place. Live your lives out and forget about the path and GSD, it’s not meant for you.

This response from the Sevadar dude is exactly right. It’s hair-splitting that you are engaging in. You trying to impose your own morality on others. You are looking for a social reformer, which is not the guru’s purpose. You looking for someone whose gonna tuck you in beddy-bye, and blow smoke up your ass and tell you everything is gonna be okay. Never gonna happen.

You’ve also lost the plot about GIHf and being ‘perfect’. These are clearly nothing but metaphors. His body is obviously that of a human being, a product of this imperfect world. His body is not perfect, but his spirit or soul is, and this is why he is called a perfected being. Every other interpretation is either willful distortion or simply being as thick as a brick.

I suspect there are other ways to get ‘enlightened’ - I don’t think anyone on this website is even remotely close to such a state, even tho a few think they are. I certainly don’t think any sort of non-dual philosophy is enlightenment either - it remains an intellectual exercise or lame attempt at describing the experience itself, which is indescribable - so you’ve already missed the point entirely in trying to describe it, and it just comes across as pseudo-intellectual bullshit.

I think there may be a few ppl who through luck have an occasional epiphany etc, but he’s teaching a method that is repeatable, for you to try enter that state permanently, and escape this world. That is all that he’s job is, not to create peace on earth or make you feel special. He can only point the way, the rest is up you.

He teaches a method for doing this - but the key point is mediation. The method is obviously aimed at creating a mind that is balanced and sensitive to nature - but he realizes that you cannot live without breaking karmas - the underlying point is meditation - everything else is secondary.

Wtf are you crying about cows for? Shit in the greater scheme of things - removing milk from another living being - is this really what you worried about in this world ? Same for LGBT rights? I mean what planet do any of you actually live on ?

Instead of bitching and championing craparse causes - if you really want to do something why don’t you go help starving people in the third world?

[Jen]

I like to use oat, or rice, or coconut milk instead of cow's milk.

...“does Baba Ji take dairy?” and the answer was yes but that he gets it from his approved dairies that he inspects himself."

If its ethical dairies he has inspected which are obviously treating their animals with care it shouldn't be that much of a problem?

All is suffering, some Buddhists even go to the extreme of not stepping on ants! Somehow we must find the middle road and stop being too extreme. Sure, be kind and helpful, take care with our words and actions and the food we eat but being perfect? Nope not even the Sant Mat gurus are perfect and all we can do is take control of our own thoughts and actions.

[Amar]

Georgy is back. Whoa, maybe you and Osho should go on a date and see who's the bigger bullshitter. My bet is on Osho.

Seriously tho Georgy you make a few good points there.

First paragraph, you're lying.

Second paragraph, bang on.

Third paragraph: you're wrong. These are not metaphors. These are propagated constantly in the literature and through the followers.

Paragraphs 4&5 not bad. Tou missed the mark on that one. His job is to be an example for his followers. I guess we'll all go out and take loans and not pay them back. Accountability my friend. Accountability.

Paragraph 6 close but no cigar there. Karma theory to explain away things that don't materialize or don't have an answer for. Cop out.

Paragraph 7&8, you're wrong. We need to pay attention to these things. Priority in the grand scheme of things not so high, but needs consideration on a holistic perspective.

[Daljit]

"Gurinder Singh Dillon never called himself any such thing,"

I find this hilarious. At the same time exposes the hypocrisy of RSSB teachings. Last time I visited the dera they were still selling photos of the Guru and all their books talked about the absolute need for a human guru AKA God in human form AKA God's agent on Earth. He is the sole distributor for tickets to Sachkhand Express which runs from directly from dera to Sachkhand. If you don't buy the ticket from him then too bad too sad. It's your bad luck. Your bad karma.

Once you buy the tickets don't forget to do free service at the dera. The super duper rich Guru does not mind free laborers. Remember it's for your own good.

Unless you like the Agra brand of Sant Mat better. Then you are absolutely right because they feel their Gurus are the real deals.
The Beas ones are self appointed Fake Gurus. They don't have the Guru appointment letter. It was never mailed.
Mind you Agra branch has divisions - Soami bagh and Dayalbagh being the main ones. And surprise one of them (I forget which one.. perhaps Soamibagh) doesn't believe in living Gurus any more. Not to mention that they have filed law suits and fought court battles against each other .

[Jesse]

"These are all signs of progress, of an evolving civilization. “The arc of the universe is long, but it bends toward justice.”

I like how you're doing that super cool self celebrating narcissist thing that westerners like to do.

Indians are happy to not only exclude others by race, but by caste, wealth or any number of factors. Somehow westerners say "we're enlightened for not being like those other people" but also say we have to accept and respect those other people when they practice traditional forms of "bigotry." It's schizophrenic to try holding these opposing acceptance of all views together, especially considering there are even more confounding layers to the madness.

Considering what I just pointed out, you might now see why the Chinese have a slang insult that just means white liberal- Baizuo. Both the "racist, xenophobic,meat eating, anti trans children, anti crack cocaine drugs" Chinese and Indians and whoever else maintains time tested human traditions of civilization and order will likely continue to exist long after your mythological vision of progress has faded away and there are no more 9 year old trans children talking positively about snorting drugs on television.

To be honest, I thought you were being sarcastic, but you truly believe in "progress" and a consequence free world. Too much news from Trusted Sources I guess. Super weird stuff to me.

The countries/nations who are currently not in decline are all doing the opposite of the USA and the west. You think that because we're living on the wealth created by past generations that somehow there is no consequence to all the shitty things we're doing. But you're wrong. We're not progressing. We're decaying. It's like living on daddy's money, driving lambourghinis, and partying all day and thinking the money will never run out. The inevitable rude awakening that will come is gonna be ugly.

Raving psycho Hicks like Ted Nugent will survive when our progressive decisions leave half the world dead and the only way to live is to go out and kill animals,and people too, just like most of the Sikh gurus did. Had you read your official RSSB manuals you'd know this. From Guru Hargobind onwards the Sikh Gurus all hunted animals and partook in acts of war in CLEAR violation of the ethical laws of veganism!

Maybe Gurinder's son will be a military commander some day. Would the true believers go to war for the guru, or is that just one step too far past stealing massive amounts of money from the poor?

[JoJo]

Someone mentioned smoking. Have you seen the photo of Swami Ji smoking that huge hukka? Now that guy REALLY knew how to smoke in style and he probably had the best tobacco money can buy;making it a priority over helping someone who needed some food. If we wanted to be like perfect masters wouldn't we all smoke hukkas before meditation, or at least a Camel cigarette?

[OshoRobbins]

Amar – I just read your comment above.
For someone who previously wrote “I KNOW nothing – I only have opinions” you have to admit you are amazingly arrogant. Because you CLAIM TO KNOW and at the same time admit that you have only opinions. Which one is it, Dude?
If you have only opinions, surely you know that everyone has opinions. Why are your opinions more important or true than anyone else’s opinions? If all you have is OPINIONS, then you really need to stop commenting – because opinions are just opinions. Also – an opinion cannot be a LIE! Yet you call Georgy’s opinion a LIE! Go figure.
Now here are some FACTS – not opinions – that clearly show that you literally talk shit. Proven. NOT opinion, like yours. It will be clear to everyone except you – because you are too full of yourself to admit anything.
Georgy wrote:
Most of you have lost the plot.
I’ve not even initiated and I reckon I understand ten times what the path is trying to achieve better than all you ex-satsangis, that have fallen off the wagon. Truth be told you should not have got on in the first place. Live your lives out and forget about the path and GSD, it’s not meant for you.
Amar’s Comment: First paragraph, you’re lying.
Now Amar, this shows you write complete nonsense.
There is nothing there to LIE about, because Georgy is writing HIS OPINION. He even says “I RECKON…..” which means “IT IS MY OPINION THAT……”
And you, Amar, say “You are LYING…” FYI – an OPINION cannot be a LIE!
If you had even thought for even a moment before writing – you could not say “You’re lying”
The fact that you wrote “you’re lying” without even realising that the paragraph clearly contains his OPINIONS means that you have no credibility at all. You just write bullshit without thinking. So YOU win top prize for bullshitter of the century.
You could say “I don’t agree with you opinion. That would be an intelligent statement. BUT you cannot call an OPINION a LIE! If you do – it reveals a LOT about you. It means you write words without caring if they even make sense. So your words are pointless – the same as a madman blabbering nonsense.
Just for clarity – this is NOT just my opinion. It’s a FACT and I have just proven it with the above example on an

[OshoRobbins]

Let’s carry on,
Amar writes “Second paragraph, bang on.”
But what is the second paragraph:
“This response from the Sevadar dude is exactly right. It’s hair-splitting that you are engaging in. You trying to impose your own morality on others. You are looking for a social reformer, which is not the guru’s purpose. You looking for someone whose gonna tuck you in beddy-bye, and blow smoke up your ass and tell you everything is gonna be okay. Never gonna happen.”
So that means you AGREE with Georgy that:
1. The letter written by the sevadar is CORRECT.
2. You people on churchless are hair splitting.
3. You (including Amar) are imposing you morality on others
4. You are assuming that GSD should be a social reformer
5. You are assuming that GSD give you false consolation.
Clearly you don’t agree at all – as shown by all your previous comments. But then – why the heck do you write “Bang on”
Are you a retard?

[Mary Thomas]

Previewing your Comment

Hi Tim (Rimmer)
In response to your concerns regarding growing enough organic affordable food, one of the solutions to that is growing sprouts. They are the most nutritionally dense, protein rich foods on the planet. Cheap and easy to grow in your kitchen all the year round, regardless of weather.
Quote:
Extensive research has proved beyond a doubt that sprouts are an important part of the food of the future. Chinese nobles, 5,000 years ago, ate sprouts for healing and rejuvenation. During World War II, when the United States was concerned about a possible meat shortage, the scientific community advised the president that the consumption of germinated seeds was the best and cheapest alternative to proteins in meat. Sprouts are a complete protein. Organic minerals found in fresh juices and sprouts dramatically contributes to the maintenance of health. Untreated natural sprouts have power to build nerves, tissue, bones and blood.
Commercially available supplements synthetically prepared contain no "life force," and therefore are not really natural. Sprouts are rich in vitamins, minerals, proteins and natural enzymes, combined exactly as God intended for us to consume. The "magic" of sprouts is that they are easily grown as a 100 percent organic food. Only clean water and 4 days are needed to get a fully grown, crispy, tasty vegetable. Germination of sprouts does not require soil, pesticides or fungicides, what a contribution to our natural environment!
Natural foods contain enzymes, minerals, amino acids and others important elements. Many researchers believe that natural vitamin complexes contain valuable food components not found in synthetic vitamins. Experiments confirm that processed foods lead to degenerative diseases and breakdown in reproductive capacity by the third generation.
The increase of vitamin content in sprouts during the sprouting period is tremendous. A clear increase in vitamin content has been measured in numerous experiments that compared sprouts to the unsprouted seed. Germinated seeds and grain showed an increase in vitamins, minerals, proteins and enzymes of 25 to 4,000 percent!
End of quote.
Some one here whose name was just a single letter commented that he thought Vegans were all mentally ill. That is simply not true. If the Vegan community they visited were all sick and the children were not flourishing, they were not getting the nutritional balance right. I have two healthy, physically athletic, extremely physically robust vegan grandchildren who have been raised vegan. The eldest is an academic genius and has been listed as being one of the two most brilliant academic prodigies in the entire country here in the UK. She is waiting to hear from Cambridge University at present. It's really childish of people to have to chop other people's heads off to make themselves look taller. Can we just look at the facts in a dispassionate scientific way without resorting to bullying tactics, one may ask? Am not referring to you Tim but there are one or two unnecessarily rude, Narcissistic bullies on this site.
You have to get the Vegan diet balanced, the Hippocrates Institute has all the latest cutting edge science on how to do this. Flaxseed and Chia are a must for the brain and will supply Vegans (and vegetarians) with crucial Omega 3. Without launching into a medical dissertation, raw Flaxseed has an array of truly miraculous health benefits and will protect against various cancers amongst other things. Flaxseed and Chia are both cheap if you buy in bulk and you only need a couple of tablespoons of each per day, all you need is a coffee grinder in order to make delicious desserts form them. The other thing Vegans have to take is B12. A lot of meat eaters are lacking in B12 too. It is crucial for brain health.
Sprouts Tim! That's the answer, especially Sunflower Seed shoots, they are powerhouses of nutritional dynamite. If you set up a rotary system, you can guarantee, fresh, cheap, organic salad base all the year round. Just add your preferred dressing and whatever veg you want.
A dehydrator is an invaluable addition to your kitchen if you are Vegan and like food and snacks that taste cooked but are raw and still contain all the vitamins intact, many of which are destroyed in cooking at high temperature. The more raw veg and salad the better. Lots of recipe suggestions online.
Am glad you mentioned the high cost of organics, it is a problem, Tim. I find I have to simplify, add the sprouts and eat a lot of raw foods to provide bulk, high nutrition and satiety.
Love n' all

[Fairy]

Mary and Tim,
Thanks. Fantastic positive posts, with the best advice. The supermarkets are selling more and more vegan cheeses and yoghurts now too. Many of the prepacked processed ( Linda McCartney's pies) are not that great though. If people are not concerned about eating only sattvic food, then mushrooms too are a superfood, I have read. I eat them just about every night with either lentils and chick peas, and other vegetables. Magnum now put out two kinds of vegan topsies and the Cornetto vegan trumpets are a nice treat too . In NZ film directors James and Suzie Cameron and Sir Peter Jackson have joined forces to create a plant based food business. James Cameron turned his NZ dairy or previous animal killing farm into a grain, nut and plant based farm. They provide produce to their vegan restaurant north of Wellington. Also, ShaniaTwain and her husband ( a satsangi - now divorced) turned their animal killing farm in the South Island of NZ into non animal killing land.
Tim, I lived in your small rural village from 2003-2007. I did know of you.
I could not watch all of the extremely distressing video. For those who do not know, we have organisations in NZ who check on pig farmers, poultry farmers, and dairy farmers. They expose maltreatment when they find it. The low life culprits are sent to jail. I bet that never happens in India where they pretend cows are sacred. There will always be lowlife cruel men. India is just a country in sad decline because of all of its devisive religious beliefs, outdated cultural practices and overpopulation. However in saying this, NZ relies on its agricultural exports, and I indirectly reap the benefits of this. Plus I was brought up,as a child and into my adulthood, on a diet of all the different kinds of meat. I do however, raise my eyebrows when our extremely wealthy animal farmers, in particular, the dairy farmers, plead poverty. They to are just as guilty of taking the bobby calves from their mothers and killing them. On the other hand, what about the racehorses who can't race anymore, the greyhounds - all of the animals used for sport and gambling? When someone cruelly mistreats another being deliberately, human, animal or any little being, that act must surely leave an imprint on whatever that person's continuum is. It must be most harmful to the person who commits the heinous act. You can't just erase it with a delete button without any consequences, surely. I guess I will never really know, but what I saw of the video along with equally heart wrenching footage of bobby calves being harmed in NZ, it broke my heart, and I cried and cried.

[Preet]

As far as I know that we get in Dera Beas is of VARKA brand it's a formula milk, powdered milk. There are no cows n buffalos.. And Babaji too drink powdered milk..

[Hxhb]

no one will get affected by your post 😀😀
Because they know that dairy diet is essential and it's common sense.... 😃
Just don't know why some people want controversial atmosphere everywhere

[Q8i]

GSD can write to Modi to stop killing animals for leather and meat in India. Once that stops these animals will enjoy a much better life.

[Jagseer]

The reply from rs is satisfying. There is soul in even wheat and rice, but we eat them. Because in this world one body is eating other body. If they dont eat they will die. Daily we are killing harming lakhs of beings. Now how can be stop this. We can not stop we can only reduce this. If one should refuse to eat diary products, then it means he should also refuse to eat anything or inhale anything because someone is geeting harmed. So its upon us what to do. Every saint of every religion used milk in there diet. Bhagwan ram, bhagwan krishna, guru nanak, kabir and many more. So if you just want to only criticize rs then its ok. But the answer given by rs representative is above the level what i was expecting. One satsangi added in rs list.

[Kamal]

The person like you would find a place in Hell as you are always found spreading baseless objections against RSSB Guru who never harm anybody

[Amar]

Osho, as much as I appreciate the attention, maybe you need to get out of your basement and get some fresh air. Sounds like you could use some vitamin B12, sunshine and clean air, maybe even some of those sprouts mentioned above. Get a grip, we're all expressing our opinions. You make it sound like you're Brian's blog police. Get a life.

I don't appreciate you using the word retard. What are you, stuck in the 70's? Grow up. There are children born with deficiencies who still lead meaningful lives, and you come across like an asshole.

For someone who claims so much knowledge and other bullshit, you come across like an uneducated dick, like me. Nobody's watching your Youtube crap, so you're here "educating" everyone. I'm not interested in what you have to say, and, as you've clearly stated many times here, you don't care for mine.

ps: did you say it? I bet you didn't. Can your ego actually allow you to admit you don't know everything?

[Jesse]

"I don't appreciate you using the word retard"

I actually do appreciate the use of that word. Political correctness, aside from being an extremely repressive tool of mental warfare, is also retarded and retarding in that it stunts growth of all kinds.

Political correctness actually retards the same sort of progress I assume you'd like to see in the world.

Veganism is a cult. A cult of ex satsangis. Don't fall into that trap people!

[Jesse]

"GSD can write to Modi to stop killing animals for leather and meat in India. Once that stops these animals will enjoy a much better life."

Hey Narendra bro. Would you mind putting tens of millions of people out of work and starting one of the most unnecessarily disastrous economic domino effects of all time that will lead to mass starvation and deaths in numbers resembling the world wars?

It'd really mean a lot to me. Like 10 of my million disciples felt bad when they saw a cow on video not receiving a massage and fed grapes like royalty.

Thanks bro. Your homie,

Gurinder Singh

[Amar]

Anyone who thinks the treatment these animals or any animal mistreated in the food chain, deems it acceptable and part of the natural process, needs their head examined. It;s not a matter of being vegetarian, or a meat eater, it's about cruelty to animals or other sentient beings.

That video, among hundreds of others on the internet from around the world are indeed happening, deplorable and utterly incomprehensible.

[Amar]

Jesse, I would hope you would have the sense not to go up to a young girl with Downs Syndrome and call her a retard to her face. Where would your political correctness, or lack of, take you?

Saying it to someone's face vs saying it behind their back is one and the same.

[Arjuna]

Just had a punt if milk blended with almonds after bench pressing 140 kg . 18 stones of pure man. Thank goodness for milk

No for some serious mediation

[Sunny]

You leave or stop consuming milk who stopped you, just your book not printed you start backbiting rssb & listen those who are not in single track are always unhappy & all rssb followers listen to only our Guru not other filthy people, we are indians strong belief in Guru leneage what you are trying to do is degrading yourself if you can reach to god go alone by posting it god is not here it you inside after death you will going to realise that whole life just wasted for doing these criticising others do your own research & tell us how lord looks like if you are capable enough.
Rest no one bothers like these pages thousands are their & thousands will come more in future.

[Marko]

Hehe Arjuna just wanted to say ...heavy squats and milk allday..peace man

[Tim Rimmer]

Hi Mary

Yep sprouts are definitely a good source of healthy food for us. One thing you forgot to mention though is that sprouts come from seeds. Seeds need to be grown, harvested and saved/ stored somewhere :-). I wondered too about sunflower seeds - a decent handful probably equates to a reasonable sized flower head and a fair amount of shell cracking.
By the way - I hung out in the Hippocrates Health Institute in San Diego when I was on a truth-seeking mission in the early 80’s. Was very much the raw fooder - living off sunflower/buckwheat greens, sprouts, rejuvalac , wheat grass juice etc. I bought a Champion Juicer - also great for making banana ice-cream (eventually sold it to the Hare Krishnas - there they go again..)

Hi Fairy - heard on the news this morning that the dairy/meat industry are challenging the plant-based use of the term ‘milk’ i.e. almond, rice, oat etc and also ‘sausage’, i.e. the original meaning refers to animal based products. Interesting potential push back to the momentum that is gathering in support of plant-based nutrition.

Best wishes

[Arjuna]

Hey Marko

Thanks heavy day in the gym. Eat and drink what you need otherwise you become ill. I stopped milk for 2 months and was in a mess. The doctor said "get back on it" lol.

Right need some more cows milk . Karma or no karma

All the best and train hard. It removes the aggression and calms one. Some people on here could do with more gym work and less keyboard typing lol.

Adios amigo

[Jesse]

Amar, I'm not personally in favor of abusing or mocking people for any sort of condition they have no control over. But that's not what enforcing politically correct language is about.

Contrary to what it looks like with the sort of polemics I get into here, I actually try to treat people with a lot of respect.

Foul language, insults, aggressive debates and all these irritating things have a definitely positive place in human discourse. It helps suss out intentions and the strength of beliefs when one is put under a bit of pressure.

I think you can be a jerk in one context but not in others. Insults and un pc language aside, I wouldn't even get into most of these talks about religion or the morality of various diets in most company.

Context is key.

[Jesse]

Brian, you really should have monetized this website.

You get so much engagement on your posts. As annoying as you might find some of us at times, it's something most bloggers could only dream of to have this many comments and views.

The money you would make could easily protect 1000 cows from having milk extracted from them.

[Jesse]

I'm seeing comments saying you can get sufficient b12 from sprouts which I don't believe.

But here is something worth reading that will challenge the simple plant vs animal view that many hold and something I've personally been considering for some time.

Mussels don't have brains. They probably don't "feel" anything. Yet they resemble something like an animal.

You can get your B vitamins from them without torturing cow udders or drinking factory made fortified nut milks.

https://sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the-ethical-case-for-eating-oysters-and-mussels/

[Amar]

Jesse, yes context is key.

[j]

Much of natural foods theory is based on the assumption that the truly "natural" human diet is animal-free. But I don't agree, because I think all humans are mutants. That is, we've mutated or evolved from the natural connection that other animals have. To a deer, a cow, or a rabbit, and countless other animals, the entire world is a dining hall. They are surrounded at all times by plants they can eat. Carnivorous animals also are surrounded by animals they can easily catch and consume.

Contrast that with the human situation. To my knowledge, there is literally not one place on earth where people can thrive on the local vegetation. And unless you put stock in the Garden of Eden being a real place history doesn't tell us of any vegan civilization. People have tried to move to the tropics and eat nothing but fruit, but it never works. They always end up with severe nutritional deficiencies.

And humans aren't natural carnivores either. Even the fittest of us can't run down a rabbit or a deer, or even a pig. I guess we could catch up with a cow, but with just our bare hands we wouldn't be able to kill it and turn it into hamburger. The best we could do is catch and eat bugs.

We've mutated into creatures of technology. I don't think we know of any human civilization that didn't employ some kind of technology for survival. Even the bushman have their simple tools and weapons, otherwise they couldn't survive.

Without technology, the earth is completely inhospitable to humans. We may as well try to live on the moon as try to live on this planet without technology. It's not just difficult, it can't be done by anyone.

And we all have to kill to survive. All eating, even eating on a vegan diet, necessitates the killing of animals. There's no way to harvest crops without killing lots and lots of animals. And if that wasn't bad enough, parts of those dead animals make their way into the foods we eat.

In view of all that, I think the sant mat explanation for moral diet makes sense. Somehow the sages of old India knew that cutting out meat AND dairy wouldn't work. Possibly, they were close enough to the land to know that the harvesting of grains involves killing animals, and that it wouldn't be possible for people to thrive on just vegetables and no dairy. So they arrived at a moral compromise: don't kill large animals, but let's not go overboard and think there's a practical diet that's absolutely moral. Such a diet doesn't really exist.

[kunal Arora]

Mr Ex Satsangi...ease explain one thing, were u there when it was happened? Also did u check that vedio weather it was a genuune or not.. See in urself first and raise a finger on anyone.

[kunal Arora]

As expected, Amar is here to poke his nose. Don't u really have any work apart from this Amar?

[Amar]

Kunal, if you're here poking your nose, shouldn't you be doing other work also? I appreciate your concern about me, but I'm fine.

Also, that video looks pretty legit to me. He's hitting the cow in the head with a sledge hammer full force. I don't think the ex-satsangi was saying this video was shot at the dera, but that it does happen in India. That's my take on it.

[Q8i]

Jesse
those millions of rssb followers will not be affected if killing animals for meat and leather industry was banned in india. dairy will continue. it will be win win for animals and humans!

[Sage]

RSSB should include a guide to how to go vegan along with their blood, organ donation pamphlet in books.
People need to know about B12 supplements, how to get Omega 3 cheaply, etc.

People in the past would've had health issues doing this, but I don't think in the present there would be any issue.

[Q]

Such delightful rationalizations. A Sikh hunting trip that occured three hundred years ago. Alrighty then.

Were those combine grain harvesters of the middle ages powered by people peddling really fast, or maybe it was whale oil? Whale oil is definitely not a vegan energy source!

Best to get your B12 from some stanky arthropod since almond milk is so absolutely repugnant, disgusting. Haha!

It's against nature to take B12 supplements or rely on fortified foods anyway. Now don't forget to take your blood pressure meds young man!

And who speaks for the cows? Krishna, the gopis, and Baba Ji of course! :)

On a serious note. Those who have empathy will benefit from the vegan information shared above, and that's all that matters really. Much more beneficial to your arteries than philosophising bout religion ever will be! Just scroll back up to the top of the page leaving the comments behind.

Thanks Ex Satsangi for being willing to challenge the outdated RS views about dairy consumption. Maybe they will catch up with the science one of these days. Sage, you're right. Maybe RSSB will upgrade to vegan and publish some guidelines. I suspect they will get to it eventually. Diet "2.0".

And thanks Brian for sharing the letter along with the reply from the "sevadar in charge" of canned replies.

[grapelove]

Tim Tim! Not forgetting Fairy.....You know all about everything if you stayed at Hippo, Tim, I had no idea. I only visited with a satsangi friend of mine who had cancer. Unfortunately, although she was making the most incredibly dramatic and miraculous recovery, when she got back to London she went off the diet and sadly died of the cancer as a result. Just couldn't keep up the raw Vegan and went back to cooked food and grains, you'll know all about that side of the program, Tim.
To make the little dark green Sunflower shoots, you have to buy the Sunflower seeds in their shells from your local Organic farm and plant them in an inch or two of soil - not the hulled seeds - although if you're lucky those (hulled) will sometimes sprout to make simple sprouts.
Yes, you have to store these seeds, lentils and beans but unlike fresh imported produce they keep for years, so you don't have to keep buying them every week. The other thing have noticed is that you require far less amounts to sprout than you do to cook, per meal that is.
I know Brian Clement went to India and introduced the science of sprouts to poverty stricken villagers as a means of solving their food shortages. Lentils, especially are really quick to sprout. They are the perfect answer to food shortages and will prevent complications from malnutrition.
As you probably know, Tim, Anne Wigmore survived starvation during the war by eating grasses and wild edibles. Most everyone in the cities died of malnutrition in those dark days but those that ate wild grasses and other wild weeds survived without any complications or even malnutrition until the end of the war. You can survive on wild grasses and edible weeds for at least two years. Two professional Lawyers and their grown kids did just that in the US and proved it.
Love and all best wishes to you both, so good to touch down with other kindred souls on here, it even neutralises some of the toxicity encountered when wading through the negative posts! Positive vibes are actually stronger than negative ones apparently which is reassuring and life affirming!
It was so nice to get Fairy's input on this as well. Love and thanks, Fairy.

[grapelove]

Jesse, just have to comment on your main concern that going Vegan will put everyone out of a job. Going Vegan will feed everyone on the planet many times over, no more children dying of starvation or anyone else for that matter. Not that anyone will listen but going raw Vegan would feed the entire global population twelve times over. By continuing to rely on animal protein which is one of the leading contributions to climate change, there will be no planet left soon. Climate change will make it impossible to even work, especially in India where temperatures are hitting highs that are a danger to life. These will inevitably increase year by year. In a short period of time people will either have to migrate or die from the heat and drought. Which do you prefer, Jesse, death or having to address the fact that animal protein in the diet is not sustainable for the planet?
The World Health Organisation has been warning that unless people switch to a plant based diet the earth will soon run out of land and water to sustain us. Just observe what is already occurring with the weather world wide, it is about to get a lot, lot worse.
The earth, if managed with respect, will always provide food and shelter, the problem is in the distribution. It is not being distributed fairly. The divide between the rich and poor is due to greed and lack of compassion. That's why everything is in such a mess.

[Fairy]

I wonder how many people who have been vegans for many many years, or
lacto vegetarians or people who may not eat dairy or cheese or yoghurt (except occasionally), but have still consumed food types that contain dairy, such as bread, biscuits, chocolate etc, along with substituting milk for soy milk or other plant based milks, and along with consuming tofu, beans, lentils, chick peas, grains, fruit nuts, etc, are fit and healthy and on no medication in their senior years? I wonder whether tests have been done to see how many carnivores (including junk food eaters and those who hardly eat any greens) and omnivores compare in their longevity and in the number of incidences of various cancers, heart diseases, diabetics, blood pressure etc to vegans and vegetarians. Our nutrition is crucial to our physical, mental, emotional and spiritual evolvement. The finer and more pure the diet, thus so the human form in all of its aspects. Perhaps now in this stage of our evolution, we are more equipped to
collectively gradually move to embrace a far far better, kinder more compassionate, way of living. A way of environmentally living in harmony and in a unifying cyclic existence. A beginning for the future to move all of humanity into the next round of life. I do not care if this is an ideal. I believe it is an ideal that is absolutely possible. For we cannot sustain ourselves along the destructive path we seem collectively as humans to be on at present.

Posted by: Fairy |

[um]

The question is:

Does good and evil exist in NATURE?
or …
Is it an debatable CULTURAL tool, invention or something the like.

If it is cultural, than it is regional and not global let alone universal.

Some weeks ago an French lady was ordered before court by the neighbours that want her to do away with Maurice the Rooster that sings his song every morning to the annoyance of these neighbours.

Please do read this as it shows in an innocent way what is discussed here:
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/04/europe/france-cockerel-trial-scli-intl/index.html.

What is considered "wrong" by city dwellers is seen as "good" by farmers etc.
Don't think that all farmers are brutal by heart because they don't handle animals as pets.

There are few if any animal activists to be found in rural communities.

There is a growing tendency for people of certain big cities to consider themselves as responsible for the rest and that they can DICTATE what and how to think on all matters of life.

[Jesse]

"those millions of rssb followers will not be affected if killing animals for meat and leather industry was banned in india."

No, genius. The billion non satsangis will be the ones who suffer and die.

If you have so much compassion for water buffalos why don't you care about the unnecessary death of millions of people? Because that's what would likely happen if the government of an economically struggling nation just decided to ban some of its most important industries overnight.

To support your nut milk utopia millions of acres of forest are being chopped down to plant cashews in Cambodia. That's all land previously offering shelter to animals gone. Small agrarian tribal communities gone. And it's happening all over the world.

Speaking of Cambodia and your proposed solutions, much of what is said by environmental activists and animal lovers resembles Pol Pot or Mao's ideology. Thinking of complex problems in a binary mechanistic way is dangerous. "Just stop all industry. Get rid of the birds. Bad people get reeducated with bullets."

I guess the fact that I'm even thinking about this means your brethren will starve me in a gulag some day. "I was vegetarian for 20 years. I'm just asking questions!"

[Um]

Yes, yes … pol pot, mao and o many others where IDEALISTS .. they had an IDEAL, to be forced upon others.

In the wake of these political idealists, millions upon millions have lost their lives.

Often, when reading or listening animal activists, using loads of mood making adjectives, i have the feeling that they don't care about animals at all. The use the so called rights of animals as an excuse to DICTATE OTHERS, their fellow human beings, to boss them. Their anger towards others is unbelievable.

animals have no rights, they are not human … rights are debatable cultural inventions.
To make it seen that animals do have rights and than own them is like taking from them what is not yours without their knowledge and consent. It is a mind trip and not benifical for animals or humans.

[Q8i]

Jesse
i'm neither an animal lover nor an environmentalist. killing animals is just disgusting and filthy, really falls short of something civilised people would do. i don't think there is any issue in a vegetarian diet.
those who still want to live that lifestyle can do the farming and butchering in their backyard, no need for India to have any such industry. it should be banned as an industry.
don't worry about the jobs these guys can be retrained and employed elsewhere in the economy.

[um]

Q8i, one can understand that for some killing an animal with their own hands would be disgusting and an filthy experience.

There are thousands if not millions of people however who kill their own hens, fish etc, to feed themselfs nd their families, I would not like to call them un-civillised. I fact calling names in this way is an uncivillised making yourself seen as ethical superior.

YOU are entitled to throw up when having to kill an hen, but that is no reason for you to call others un-civilised.

I am an born vegetarian, an have seen several times as a kid how uncles and aunts would kill an hen. There was and there is nothing wrong with it … they were kind people and … civilized. Being vegetarian the behaviour of animal activists towards others is more a problem to me than those who need to kill an animal for living.

There is no god who cares that a human kills an animal as he has created the killing himself as an means to keep his creation alive, where all creature live from killing other creatures.

[Q8i]

um
if the act of killing animals at an industrial level wasn't enough to classify people as uncivilized, killing for profit would surely be nothing short of uncivilized.

[Um]

Q81, the real problem is the ..availability of food!

If you want your food to be available at walking distance, at least 8 hours a day, and for you to choose according your liking, … and … almost for free, than you should not be surprised about how it is produced.

There is not so much as killing for profit … who does that???

YOU are able to do all things you want to do daily because YOU have others do the GATHERING of food for YOU ….
YOU are the real "killer", the one that profits from the labour of food producers …
YOU are like the "nobles" of yore that lived leisurly in their "castles" while the farmers toiled and made their luxurious life possible.

Now YOU can judge who is civilized the poor farmer or the modern "nobles" living in city "castles".

Go an get your own food from nature but please don't blame and look down upon those who do it for you … YOU and only YOU do profit from what is created by YOU

[Fairy]

Grapelove, Mary, and Tim 🧚🙏😍😻😻🌟
Those of us who live in NZ are aware there is a rising awareness of vegan lifestyles and the contempt of the dairy and animal farmers, being exposed online on STUFF and on TVNZ. 1 in 10 NZrs reported today to be either vegan or vegetarian. Thanks to SAFE and all that they do along with the RNSPCA and other animal welfare organisations.

[Um]

Fairy, besides the food you get from your local shop, where do you think your clothes an other textiles comes from?

People can live the life YOU do due to the very same industries you feel contempt for.

If these industries are closed down, you can not longer live the luxurious life you consider as normal.

It is simple Fairy .. all living creatures spent almost all their time and energy in staying alive as individual and as a species. If YOU would live a NATURAL life as a human being, you too would have to spen almost all your time and energy in staying alife.

YOU and YOUR CRAVINGS for an luxurious life are at the root of what you detest.

Years ago people from the west would stand howling before this or that teacher lecturing them about pesticides etc. blaming these farmers … forgetting that these farmers HAVE to do it if they want to cater for so many mouth to be fed. If one would think that the karma would be only on the back of the farmer, than one has little understood. Farmers work on the behalve of others.

Everything YOU buy in a shop makes guilty like the one who knowingly buys stolen stuff from a thief. But if nobody would buy from a "thief" there would be no thiefs

[Jen]

Fairy asks, I wonder how many people who have been vegans for many years... are fit and healthy and on no medication in their senior years?

I've been a strict vegetarian since I was in my early twenties and now I am in my seventies and not on any kind of medication. I am still very fit and healthy in comparison to the other old people I know and my diet is very frugal, cereal, salads, fruit, coconut yoghurt, and then... oh no! I love a cup of coffee and a cigarette or two! My opinion is that its very important to be positive in thoughts and actions. Guru haters and Trump haters you are making yourselves ill.

[Q8i]

um
any justification for mass murder of animals is not acceptable in my books. i'm ending this discussion from my end here.

Jen
yes same here i'm from a vegetarian family, doing just fine, at least since birth!

[Jesse]

"any justification for mass murder of animals is not acceptable in my books. i'm ending this discussion from my end here."

Then get off the computer right this moment you crazed vegan hypocrite. After that, sell your car, or bike for that matter, your shoes and clothes, any electronic items you have, and move to the woods and do not till the land. Eat only fruits which have already fallen from the trees and which no other creatures could eat.

You'll be dead in a week. But it's the only way to live up to your standards.

Go for it Q8i. Be the man you want to see in the world.

[Jesse]

"don't worry about the jobs these guys can be retrained and employed elsewhere in the economy"

Economics aren't magical. You can't just make a new industry appear or totally change the market system on a whim. In the largest and robust economy in the world, millions of people lost their homes because technology stocks lost value lol. You're talking about destroying critical economic foundations of a developing nation. That's begging for suicide/genocide/whatever you wanna call everyone dying.

This sort of nonchalance about killing millions of people, and not seeing clearly why that would happen, is the exact reason why democracy has no future.

This person has zero business voting or publicly expressing an opinion, yet potentially they could change the fate of the world. Total insanity.

[Um]

@ Q8i
You are welcome to end but if you came to the conclusion reading my words that my words are an excuse for the ever growing industrial dairy industry with all the negative consquences for animals AND humans, I would like to ask you to read them again and again.

Not ONE single word i wrote or intended to write was in defence of that industry ...and ...YOU KNOW THAT

[Fairy]

Hi Jen, Yes, that is what I meant. A vegetarian or vegan lifestyle is a far better health option. I too am a "senior" and on no medication and have been a vegetarian for just over 30 years. I do still eat some dairy very occassionally and detest milk, always have done, and use soy milk. ( The other plant based products all curdle in tea). I am mostly vegan at home, but if I go to friends or eat out then sometimes it is necessary to be vegetarian instead of vegan. I will never eliminate honey though.

Um,
I never buy leather, try to buy made in NZ food and goods, or food imported from Spain, Italy and Australia( olives, pasta etc). As for clothes, well, these days, mostly recycled from Op shops. Yes, originally they most probably have been produced under dreadful
conditions for the workers. We have a law in our country that everyone must be paid a minimum wage. If not employers are taken to court. We have laws that workers' conditions must meet certain standards. Oh and by the way, almost every person prosecuted here for slave labour and exploitation of their own race of people they rip off, is from guess where?

[Fairy]

I should also add, my only income is a government pension, of which I am extremely grateful for, along with minimal savings. My life is luxurious compared to those in poverty in third world countries. However, in comparison to the majority where I reside, then I live in one of the most lower socio-economic areas of my country. I try to buy food when it is on special. In fact those who get food parcels from the distributing charities, begged people not to donate the type of food I eat all the time. We live in a symbotic world. Itvis inevitable some living beings will be harmed in the production of all things. Probably a hunter gatherer life, although perhaps a shorter lifespan thsn thst of today, was perhaps a far more mass contented way of living. Is it not better to try to be kind and gentle and loving? To work in harmony, and not against our higher nature and best potential. We tell our younger generations to fulfill their potentials and to be the best that they can be. Yet what kind of legacy are we leaving them? What kind of example are we leading, I ask? Hopefully, the present will always produce enough good humans who have high moral and ethical standings to lead the way into the future. Do you know the collective energy of a race or culture does have a bearing on the energy of the elements within and surrounding the location of that race or culture or community. If you put a stone in a pure lake, it ripples, and that lake is changed forever, even if you take the stone out. I believe we choose our DNA, we choose our parents, we choose our country. Maybe it is random. I don't know. We all have to have our own ephanies (?) , and we all have our own crosses to bear.

[Tim Rimmer]

Hey Grapelove
Nice to read your response. Hardly talked to anyone for decades about Anne Wigmore/Hippocrates etc. I may even still have a copy of ‘Survival into the Twenty-First Century’ somewhere - the original raw food/preppers book that kicked it off for me. Like with many of these things we can get totally into it and lose some perspective. When the mind kicked in I recall getting too preoccupied with ‘the right sort of food’ and probably would have fitted into the classic New Ager type mould. I drank so much carrot juice that I became almost allergic to it and my skin was turning yellow!!!
Nevertheless knowing about this stuff may help us in the uncertain times ahead. And I guess the points I’ve been making are equally about the need for us to wake up about where our food comes from and we are actually fortunate to have choice (particularly those of us in ‘the west’) over what we eat and how we obtain it - this is going to change in my view.

Manjit, rapscallion! Yes I do reside in the land of ‘Apteryx haastii’. Have been enjoying reading your recent posts. I’m glad you are pushing weights while eating hemp powder instead of whey. On a good day I can still do over 60 press-ups :-)
In regard to diet a lot of it ties to perspective. A while back a dear friend was feeding some meat to a family of hungry birds. He saw the look on my face as he pulled the mince out of his freezer and said to me ‘It’s just a thought’ - bang on in my view. I guess as soon as we’re in that thinking mode then how we approach situations will always be a mix of reactive thoughts, likely to be tied up with concepts. However my concepts and feelings tell me that animals suffer terribly in that process of providing meat and dairy for our palate - and that’s probably a bottom line for many of us (and you) who post here.

I agree with you when you say:
‘RS dogma is the product of outdated & outmoded medieval Indian conceptualisations surrounding what are in reality non-conceptual experiences. These dogmas, doctrines & "tenets" are crystalisations, stagnant, inert relics of what were, once, vibrant, LIVING expressions of an overflowing inner sense of love and compassion for all conscious (God) beings’.
Key word - Dogma. Further you write:
‘The problem with religions, and their followers, is they think their medieval dogma is sufficient for all times. So whilst an egg can cause reincarnation for the disciples of even the most powerful Gurus, Gurinder is good to go with the fully leathered out Bentleys which are destined to only ever be touched by his Holy Ass Cheeks.
.but if you're an RS satsangi......DON'T EAT THE EGG, YOU'RE FUCKED IF YOU DO.

Ha Ha - How to make sense of that! I wonder if someone could tally up and compare the karmic de-merit points accruing from the eating of a happy egg (lain by a well fed fully free range chicken ) as opposed to all that leather kit and tech in the latest Bentley! (I did not know this is how he gets around in the UK). Anyone have access to the Akashic Records?

What’s that Nisargaddata paragraph you mentioned?

[Amar]

This:
"Ha Ha - How to make sense of that! I wonder if someone could tally up and compare the karmic de-merit points accruing from the eating of a happy egg (lain by a well fed fully free range chicken ) as opposed to all that leather kit and tech in the latest Bentley! (I did not know this is how he gets around in the UK). Anyone have access to the Akashic Records?"

That is funny! Mercedes, BMWs, Audi's, Bentley's or Telsa's. Wouldn't want the guru rolling around in a Chevy or Ford, huh? Perish the thought!

[manjit]

Hey Tim!! - 60 pressups?! :-o That's excellent! I assume when you say "on a good day", you don't mean 2.5 pressups every hour? :) (btw plant protein is actually a mix of 5 plants, one of which is hemp, but rice, pea, seeds & soya too I think.....has all the necessary aminos!)

You write: "However my concepts and feelings tell me that animals suffer terribly in that process of providing meat and dairy for our palate - and that’s probably a bottom line for many of us (and you) who post here."

Yes, at the end of the day, it's heartbreaking. A poster called "Q" I think wrote a wonderful comment I really liked & tend to agree with (that Jesse didn't agree with :), something along the lines of "the arc of nature is long, but it is just" (they said it better!). I tend to agree from my own understanding, or at least hope it's true.

That all the turmoil we see in the world today is but the growing pains of global human society that is evolving on many fronts, in how we treat other people, how we treat animals and how we treat the environment.

Or at least I hope that's what is happening, and we're not actually seeing the death throws of a global human society whose greed & hatred ends up destroying itself & the whole planet......

Cheers Tim!

PS re Niz.....I don't think I can post quotes anymore! :) I think it may be chapter 64 of I AM THAT, but it's possible there's another quote too, I can't recall.....

[Marko]

Manjit chlorella,nettle,bee pollen,pine pollen, barley grass, wheat grass, pine nuts, maca( like a natural roids) all great for building mucle and also include almist evereything the body needs...but milk kefir is one of my great healing and nourishing foods to me.

[tucson]

Because of RS (I quit in '97) and personal sensitivities about killing and eating animals I was a strict vegetarian for about 28 years in good health. To compress a long story I eventually became a little less healthy and discovered that meat agreed with me. Eating it made me healthier. A serving of steak was like a tonic.

This put me in a quandary because I still didn't like killing and eating animals. I really didn't like meat all that much. I still went for the baguette before the steak, but there was something about the synergy of nutrients in meat that had a beneficial effect that no vegetable sourced so-called "complete protein" could match, not even milk products.

One solution was eggs and I ate them regularly. They seemed to provide that synergistic nutrient effect. By that time I had no reservations about eating eggs due to the ridiculous (That's right Charan.. ridiculous), RS prohibitions about eating them. I still ate meat, but probably not as much due to the eggs.

I would recommend that vegetarians, who find that they are not thriving, try eating some eggs. No animal is harmed by eating an unfertilized egg which most store-bought eggs are. I recommend eggs that are labeled "pasture raised organic" even if they cost a couple bucks more. Big deal. Are you really that poor?

In recent years, we have kept chickens for a continuous source of well-fed unfertilized eggs. No roosters to wake us up at 2 AM, but don't think all will be quiet in the absence of roosters. Hens make a lot of noise too. Loud noise. Dwayne, our black Jersey Giant (breed) hen is a cacophonous creature.

These days though, I am getting to not like eggs as much as I did. I am becoming turned off by eating this thing that comes out of Dwayne's black ass or Jose's brown ass or Nigel's white ass or Wei Wu Wei's yellow ass. So, I have been eating a little more meat, not because 'I' crave it but because this body does. I had some pasture raised beef last night. It set well in the gut. I feel pretty good today. This is the way nature made me. Damn it.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Tucson
My ex - wife became a vegetarian while we were dating. But after we were married she contracted pneumonia, which she had never had in her life before. So she went back to eating meat. And became healthy in days.

Anita was from a meat eating family, her father hunted seasonally. Their home was decorated with huge stuffed buck heads and moose heads extending several feet from dark paneled walls, with a pair of paws protruding from the walls underneath the larger quarry to hold up her father's prized hunting rifles.

I remember my own embarrassment and humility on the Thanksgiving holiday their whole family prepared and ate a vegetarian meal in my honor.

I felt, actually, that this was wrong and I had inadvertently burdened them, but was humbled by their kindness.

When my ex recovered from pneumonia she went back to the RSSB diet, though she was and remains an Atheist. But a year later she contracted pneumonia again, and that was when I started cooking meat for her.

And she recovered. And has continued to be a meat eater.

Interestingly, my sister has become a vegan for the last seven years both for health and to reduce killing. She is also an Atheist. She overcame some significant health issues and now in her mid-sixties has more energy and health than any of us.

I offered to go on a raw food fast with Jo, and I was the one who became ill after a morning of carrot juice. But she was unfazed and had a lumberjack's appetite the rest of the day.

Each must find their own way. And we should honor and support what people need to survive.

I've stayed with the diet mainly because of how changes in diet affect my meditation.

When I had unexpected difficulties in meditation, often I would try to investigate my own choices, behavior and diet immediately before. I've gone back to restaurants I'd eaten at only to confirm they had used lard or mayonnaise in something I'd eaten. The body is a very sensitive instrument and different diets are necessary to carry out different activities, different careers.

[Jesse]

I can't find it online, but there was once a question posed to a modern day Sufi about vegetarianism. I think the naqshbandi one Nazim Al Haqqani who was well respected and recently passed away.

When asked why he ate meat, he gave a simple answer. "Because I like it."

Something to consider when you hear things like "all Saints of all religions are the same and were all vegetarians."

[Ellen Ericksen]

Good evening everyone!
I am SO glad to finally be able to comment about dairy and RSSB. I was on the path many many years ago being advised by my family that I needed to be on a spiritual path. So I decided that I would "join" and attend and read. I went to meetings and certainly knew about the path since I had been around so many almost more than half my life.
To make a very long story short, after going to meetings the hypocrisy smacked me right in the head about no guidelines about consuming dairy or wearing any animal products. I left the "path" as being a very strict vegan for the animals. I am so relieved to finally hear the conversations happening again about dairy. My sister was the woman in 2017 that asked those very hard and difficult questions in Petaluma. I would love to have conversations especially with the ex SS.
Thank you.
passionatevegan

[Jesse]

Ellen Ericksen, I'm a vegetarian who eats very minimal dairy. But I think you should start eating meat again. It'll be good for you.

Long before Nasim Agdham tried to shoot a bunch of people at the youtube headquarters I watched her videos. She was very funny and weird, and though I never expected her to go on a killing spree like an atheist Elizabeth Warren supporter from Ohio, I did find she was being "radicalized" by the voices within the decentralized vegan cult.

I mean, the lady was against the use of animal waste fertilizers for Allah's sake. If protecting the feces of an animal becomes part of your ideology, you've sort of gone too far already.

But that's the sach khand of veganism- to become an unbearable fanatic in order to gain respect from your increasingly competitive virtue signalling peers.

So please, for the love of the laws of nature, go hunting and eat a deer or something. Don't go down the dangerous path of veganism.

[G]

Marko,

Milk kefir is good, raw milk is good too, i have ulcerative colitis and I'm healing it with diet.