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June 04, 2019

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Hi Ned, thoughtful notes. Thank You!

A few questions for you:
What made you consider doing the experiment?

How was doing the Zen practice up until now, is it a satisfying path for you or have you come to a conclusion that there is something more/further you want to experience?

Thanks.

Nice thoughtful piece from Ned. I do align myself quite a bit to much of Zen thought. It compliments what I understand from the science of brain studies.

Surely, if we are serious in our enquiry we would study the 'self'. In Ch'an (Zen) Buddhism it is said 'To meditate is to the understand the self'.

From (I believe) the Taoist tradition the following dialogue:- “Why are you unhappy?” “Because 99.9% of the time you are thinking of yourself – and there isn't one.”

It is threatening to our very existence to even entertain the possibility that there is no self, no I or me – even no mind as we know it. Undoubtedly the mind exists but only as a construct that the brain has built over time as information. Again, from the Zen tradition:-

Student: “Master, please help me to pacify my restless mind.”
Master: “This is terrible, bring out this mind that I may remonstrate with it.”
Student: (after several minutes) “Master, I cannot find it.”
Master: “There, it is pacified.”

The trick that the brain plays on us is undoubtedly for our own good, for our own survival. The trouble is, we have long believed that the mind/self structure to be so real it reacts instinctively to protect and maintain itself from any perceived threat to its contents – its beliefs, thoughts and opinions. Many of our comments here are of this 'self' protecting mechanism.

It would take honesty and courage to meditate (not just sitting meditation but enquiring into everyday thoughts, feelings and reactions that arise) on the illusory and transient nature of the mind/self phenomenon.

Interesting observations from Ned. Eckart Tolle commented that the Guru offers a deal "that you can become just as enlightened as him, but not quite." Over 40 years, I too have found that there's something undeniable frustrating about sant mat. And yet there's also something undeniably attractive about this religion. As others have commented here, simran of the 5 names seems to have a power to still the mind that isn't present in other mantras. And sant mat meditation produces guru bhakti that is genuinely intoxicating. I have very fond feelings for certain sant mat gurus that I just don't have for other gurus. And yet, the intoxication from all of that seems to be like the intoxication one gets from other sensual substances. It doesn't last, it turns stale, and it hits a dead end. These conclusions are often countered by admonitions that one didn't truly commit in time and effort to the Path. And that may indeed be true; on the other hand, where are the truly happy and enlightened people in sant mat? Visiting satsangs, I find that people there are no happier than the average person. Sant mat brings a kind of bliss, but along with that bliss it also brings the baggage of how far away one is from salvation.

By some coincidence, last night I was experimenting with simran and then mindfulness. When the simran hits a dead wall (as it inevitably does), I find that mindfulness restores peace of mind. And it's a peace of mind that is rather undescribably different in quality from what I get from simran and guru bhakti.


(3) Subjective experience is not proof of anything.

The atheist position is that they will not believe something unless there is empirical proof, which automatically eliminates most if not all subjective experience as a premise for belief.
...


I agree subjective experience doesn't prove anything but its value can
be immeasurable. As cited earlier, Ishwar Puri tells a funny but revealing
story. On sabbatical at Harvard in the 60's he discussed his spiritual
experiences with T. Leary and R.Albert (LSD experimenting prof's later
expelled).

They skeptically told Ishwar his experiences weren't real and were just
the product of auto-suggestioin. Ishwar agreed they were probably
right but added my experience is repeatable and available to me
24x7 so I'm happy all the time while you guys are on Prozac.

Maybe a bit of exaggeration about 24x7 happiness, but his point was
that like Zen, mindfulness, or RSSB, an introspective, meditative approach
can make you happy so who gives a rip about whether it's real or not. Of
course, it shouldn't be a fantasy or practice with dire side-effects, eg,
illegal, immoral, or fattening.


Not only does subjective experience not justify belief, it doesn't justify authority either.

I think mystics agree that you should only believe what's supported by
your own, repeatable experience. Initially, you only have faith to the
extent of giving the path a shot to see if you can validate it with your
confirming evidence. Not someone else's either... your own. It's your
discretion to set whatever benchmarks you feel are reasonable.

Blind faith in anything -a guru, inner regions, special powers, a blissful
afterlife- won't cut the mustard. You need to be able to validate and
enjoy results while you're still alive and kicking too. Otherwise, it's a
religious ritual.

Dungeness, if the point is just to be happy, why is acheiving it through 2 hours of boring self torture and worshipping Indian men any better than popping a prozac which takes one second and a sip of water?

An aquaintance of mine who enjoyed using ayahuasca and various forms of DMT told a story of a woman who was bragging that she had had finally achieved the ability to conjure blissful states and weird visions after 25 years of devoted meditation. His reply was "it took you 25 years. I can have the same thing for 5 dollars."

The further back you go into mysticism the more entheogens are the norm. I couldn't care less either way how people choose to waste time before death, but thinking that using chemicals is inferior is just like the ego man. Real mystics like transcend the ego man.

Hi Ned
You wrote
"Which is that there is a lot more that we don't know than we do, and of what we do know is continuously up for revision."

Agreed!!

Subjective experiences are by their nature unprovable to anyone else, but thy can be very real and meaningful to the person who has them. They are real something, but we can't say what.

I don't see the reason to tell someone they don't see unicorns if they really do see them. That's for them to know. The mind translates all sorts of things into the brain.

And the problem with arrogance works on both sides, religious and scientific.

How often medical doctors try to tell their patients everything is fine (based on empirical learning) because they believe they know what the patient is experiencing when they don't. And then patients get sicker or die and the same doctor says, "well it was obviously something else no one could have predicted...." sing only that empirical evidence (which lead them to 'interpret' ie, ignore what the patient told them.

If anything, science has taught us that it's all real. If someone claims something, there is something behind it, we just don't know what. So it's arrogant and foolhardy to try to label it God or Illusion.

The true humility of the scientist prevents them from playing the mind reader.

And unfortunately people play that role often in the name of science as they do in the name of spirituality.


Dungeness, if the point is just to be happy, why is acheiving it through 2 hours of boring self torture and worshipping Indian men any better than popping a prozac which takes one second and a sip of water?

Two hours? Even after a few minutes of quiet solitude and
mindfulness. I feel markedly better. I'll worry about worship
and inner regions later...

Besides, take a gander at prozac's "rare" side effects":

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/prozac-side-effects.html

Who wants to wonder if the next pill gives you hair loss...


J I have interacted with many people that are Much much happier than the average person. Point to note is that all of them have been in some spiritual practice whether Sant Mat or any other. And that is the point the present master keeps making that we should not forget why we are here. Choose whatever path you want but don’t forget to create that relationship with the divine power and try to tap into your own divinity while in this life. It does not have to be sant Mat but it has to be something. There is a huge difference in people that do this and those that don’t.
So J to answer your question I can point you to a few truly happy and enlightened people in sant Mat. But those are definitely and truly committed. Let me know if you are interested in speaking to a few I can connect you with them. 😊

"I can point you to a few truly happy and enlightened people in sant Mat."

Point me to someone who wouldn't piss their pants if pulled up on them outside their nice suburban home with a mask on and put an AR-15 to their head as I screamed contradicting demands and fired warning shots in the air. Show me someone in abject poverty after a devastating war looking for bugs and roadkill to eat who gives a damn about anything other than survival in the here and now.

All this talk of enlightenment is wankery for rich idiots with a lot of time and no physically demands or real challenges. Enlightenment seeking is a masturbatory activity for the leisure class and it can be stripped away from them forever with one minor act of violence that would see them in therapy for the rest of their lives.

Anyone claiming to be enlightened, whether they say it or allude to it the way pussies like Gurinder do, should be forced to live in ISIS territory and try peddling their spiritual status bullshit there.

Looks like Someone didn’t take their prozac today? 😳

Before rubbishing claims of Santmat or its advanced followers we need introspect what are we. or what could we be if not bodies or brains which we never happen to see or observe during our lifetimes. We are being observed by others as bodies equipped with brains n logics and common sense etc which we are not but something who peeps through or senses through the eyes etc inside those bodies.

May be we are some sort of spiritual beings living eternally minus memory through each cycle of bodies. By Science and its explanations our bodies are well defined but not the very essence which live inside of them.

For analytical minds and at anxious moments we have no other option but to rely upon something which may define it near perfectly even though relying on those subjective experiences private to oneself when its follower practises the percept.

Yes, it may be dummy for many among the total lot who are yet to move past the threshold concentration ( selfless) levels required to rise beyond bodies entrapping them. Here, Guru does not matter as much as is the concentration with love/dedication for the only Power as suggested by the path. Its perfectly safe even to ignore the Guru for those moments who may reveal at appropriate time ( still struggling to reveal Him).


I may add one or two personal experiences to lay emphasis on that we may be just the puppets in the hands of one such Power.

A few years back it so happened that I had an accident while I was riding a scooter. My skull got injured while rest of my body was just OK. I lost my consciousness immediately and regained consciousness later while I was on my bed. No one was much surprised as I regained consciousness as talked to them since all this while I travelled all the way from the place of accident to my home and on to the bed on foot while talking all the while and may be about the accident. It surprised me as no one believed me that I know nothing of in between period. Later I got stitches and dressing. What was it that was working in between, who took over me to pull on the affairs of the World and its intricacies is still a question mark for me.

Next after graduation I was employed in a place where my uncle ( not real one but loving neighbour who was also a satsangi and in armed forces) got posted and I got his information. I visited them after a long time. I was a boy of 14-15 years last when I left for my graduation from a base camp where our families resided together way back. To my surprise as I arrived them my aunt just started weeping holding me as to where was I all these years and she recognised me as Guru. I fumbled to explain myself and console her. But for a few hours she wept before was stable. In fact I was very young and could not comprehend the situation while I was not even initiated. I felt it better to escape than to face embarrassment any further.

To me It requires more than thoughts or logics to define Life and consciousness not to say of eternity which we may only observe If we could travel though it now and if not now then later, in afterlife.

Santmat is one such option which one may experiment or love it. However keeping aside Santmat or Sciences for awhile the mystery stands for me - unexplainable .

Regards.


Hi Jen. I didn't mean to say that people in sant mat are unhappy, or that sant mat doesn't provide a relative sense of fulfillment to those who take it up. No doubt, people find meaning in sant mat, and right living, and meditation, and community. These are all undeniably positive things. But in nearly 40 years of going to satsangs of various sant mat groups, I haven't seen evidence that any group of satsangis are happier than people who follow other religions, or even happier than people who follow no religion. Sant mat makes the grandest claims for its meditation and masters, and yet we don't see sangats made up of people who exemplify truly exceptional serenity. They seem no more or less content than congregants at a Mormon worship service or a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.

"Happiness" in respect to religious belief is admittedly hard to quantify. While many people find a relative advantage in being believers in whatever path, there are many accounts of people who were ardent believers in this or that guru or religion, who lived the tenents of that path fully for decades, who felt they completely believed that their path or guru was the summit of the highest Truth, said they were fortunate to have found it, etc...and then one day, these ardent believers leave that particular faith, and say that they are much happier apart from it. And they never go back. There are many such stories in all religions, including sant mat.

These former ardent believers found that their happiness wasn't genuine happiness, and that's because they ultimately discovered that their belief and devotion to their guru of path was actually slavery to an attractive but unrealistic ideal that conflicted with their deeper nature. Ideals that conflict with our deeper beliefs always compromise our happiness. What they took for happiness was the payoff they got from being true believers. Human nature is such that there's a huge pull to be yoked with an attractive ideal. We get a certain measure of satisfaction from fulfilling that instinct, but it's questionable whether that fulfillment is genuine happiness.

Many years ago a satsangi made an astute observation of his experience with his fellow RSSBers -- "satsangis often go around like they have this huge problem." I concur, and would add that the typical satsang is really little more than a lament of a huge problems that sant mat theology puts upon its believers. Every RSSB satsang is an ode to how we are all failures but must keep trying to find a victory that no one dares speak of attaining. Satsangis are sold on trying to realize an impossible ideal. The ideal is no doubt very attractive, wholesome, and "logical," but the ultimate unrealizability of that ideal has to create frustration.

Hi J. You wrote:
"These former ardent believers found that their happiness wasn't genuine happiness, and that's because they ultimately discovered that their belief and devotion to their guru of path was actually slavery to an attractive but unrealistic ideal that conflicted with their deeper nature. Ideals that conflict with our deeper beliefs always compromise our happiness. What they took for happiness was the payoff they got from being true believers. Human nature is such that there's a huge pull to be yoked with an attractive ideal. We get a certain measure of satisfaction from fulfilling that instinct, but it's questionable whether that fulfillment is genuine happiness."

Well said. Some go through pushing for the ideal, and lose the opportunity to become more enlightened about themselves. I think this is what GSD has been trying to do in the last few years: more focus back on the individual taking ownership and looking to "find your Self". The old guard will have trouble with this, but the younger generation will latch on a bit faster. Might take a generation for the old dogma to fade away.

If not for the money issues, he might still have carried more credibility on this.

Lack of culpability, not taking ownership or taking a stand either way, have broken my RSSB rose colored glasses.

Hi Jen from Austin
You wrote
" I can point you to a few truly happy and enlightened people in sant Mat. But those are definitely and truly committed. Let me know if you are interested in speaking to a few I can connect you with them. 😊"

And I've got this great bridge to sell you... Oh wait a minute, you've already bought one!

If this blog were from an ex member of any other mediation cult you'd be reading identically thoughtless defenses by different slaves with the only difference being the name of the (usually Indian) guy who you were told to and decided to worship.

The only worthwhile defenders come from the more agnostic partial believers like Spence and a few others who seem to genuinely practice this stuff but aren't convinced that its efficacy is derived from the magical power of some dude, but rather from their own minds and/or something generally psychic or metaphysical.

The rest of you do nothing but cause ugly static-like noises that do nothing but irritate the senses. Ugliness and disgruntledness suits non believers like myself. Believers are supposed to be calm and pure. You're like a drunk stinking man in a ripped suit covered in mud trying to sell me the high life. Not buying it.

An RSSB initiate defending fraud while attempting to discuss spirituality is like forgetting to wipe your ass after visiting the toilet and then making excuses for why you are special and don't need to.

It doesn't pass the smell test.

Hi J you wrote
“ But in nearly 40 years of going to satsangs of various sant mat groups, I haven't seen evidence that any group of satsangis are happier than people who follow other religions, or even happier than people who follow no religion. Sant mat makes the grandest claims for its meditation and masters, and yet we don't see sangats made up of people who exemplify truly exceptional serenity. They seem no more or less content than congregants at a Mormon worship service or a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous.”

I have been going for about 40 years too and I can agree that may be the case with many of the people that attend Satsang however one very important point to keep in mind is that you call these people “satsangis” which really means nothing if all they have is initiation. The crux of the path is meditation. And not just meditation but DISCIPLINED DAILY MEDITATION. If that is not done none of these people or sangats are any different from the ones you mentioned. I actually was quite surprised to hear how few people actually “follow” the path and do the practice. Very very few. So enrolling in a school but not doing the homework and living the life of a student doesn’t mean anything.
I have a few examples in my own family and when I tell you that there are those that are really happy those are the ones that are actually satsangis. And the others are the ones you state in your example.


If someone thinks they are doing the meditation, they are mistaken. So there is nothing to be proud of there.

If someone thinks their efforts are what makes them happy, understood, but if they look upon others who are having a tough time and say "well that's their own fault," that is the height of arrogance. It's actually abusive.

This is everything wrong with certain Satsangis.

What is in concept supposed to be a community of equals now becomes another caste system.

Jen from Austin Texas, you say:

"I can point you to a few truly happy and enlightened people in sant Mat"

Interesting how people see in others what they want to see. I have lived in three countries, nine cities, was a satsangi for many years and every satsangi I have met in all the different Sangats imo is simply pretending to be enlightened, including you.

Sant Mat is just another religion and if you went to a Church you would probably find some "truly happy and enlightened people" who are also pretending to be the "chosen ones".

So because of your name I will have to call myself, hmmm, Jen from South Africa? Jen from New Zealand? or Jen from Australia? Maybe I'll settle for Jen ex-satsangi. Nope, I've been posting on this blog for many years so will stick with Jen.

Jen from SA,NZ,Australia

You likely only associated with those who you're associated with, there are those as per Jen from Austin Texas's example who actually are happy and unattached in the real sense, though they maybe few and far between yet they do exist and possible outside of your orbit of association. You're probably only resonant with people of your own nature, if you did the full course of meditation as prescribed at initiation you'd know the differences.

Jen you wrote
“Interesting how people see in others what they want to see. I have lived in three countries, nine cities, was a satsangi for many years and every satsangi I have met in all the different Sangats imo is simply pretending to be enlightened, including you.”

I don’t see it in everyone. But there definitely are a few. And I see this in others that follow different religions/paths too. It’s not just sant Mat like I said earlier. J asked about seeing this in people in the sangat and I gave my take on it. Not saying because I think the path is superior in any way. I never claimed to be enlightened in fact I’m not. I just see the good in people unlike many of you on this blog.
So Jen we have the same name and that’s it. 😊

By the way many of you here (Spence, Jesse) seriously need to take a chill pill. So much negativity I haven’t seen anywhere else. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Jen from Texas, didn't Gurinder and Charan both somewhat admit to not doing meditation and saying that Jaimal Singh et al did all the meditation for them? Haven't almost all of the current RS gurus said similarly in an attempt to evade criticism for the fact that they're always jabbering in front of their gracious financial donors and never ever seen meditating?

Plus, if Jaimal was born more enlightened than everyone else, why did he supposedly for years on end spend 12 hours a day doing it with his hair tied to a nail? If it took him 12 hours a day, what am I reasonably supposed to expect to receive with 2 hours? The ability to steal money from middle class share holders from an economically struggling country and collect watches?

And for those who are talking about the community of RS, I have no clue what your local sangat was like, but Gurinder asked local sangats not to hang out or socialize much because it would interfere with meditation. RS is the most anti-social religious community I've ever heard of. Very awkward and strange. There were a few people that I got on well enough with, but 4 of them were family members, all of whom left RS except the mom who never joined. The others were just nice people who would have been so without the cult.

It's all b.s. and radha soami is a scam. Nothing lines up at all. Beas is a heretical branch started by a guy who got kicked out by the founder that became a family business run like a cult who doesn't want its members to know each other because they might reveal the secret of how useless the meditation is and how corrupt the leader is. The North Korea of religions.

None of the other branches are any better, but they're smaller so under less scrutiny. The one with the big star shaped temple is hilarious though. What a horrid pile of junk they created to honor god. Very much the product of people suffering from lead poisoning in their water.

Get out of the cult and do something else. Satsang is stupid.

"By the way many of you here (Spence, Jesse) seriously need to take a chill pill. So much negativity I haven’t seen anywhere else. 🤷🏼‍♀️"

You're dumb as hell. Spence is actually really positive. I'm the negative one, and mostly because these religious circles attract the lowest forms of humans such as yourself who have nothing to say and hence there is no way I can rationally respond. It's annoying to hear you repeat nonsense so much. Were we on any other site I'd be far more aggressive toward you. Brian is cool so I hold back most of what I'd say otherwise.

If this is the most negativity you've seen, you have been locked in a cage most of your life and are clueless about the world you live in. This site is almost too positive for me. Thankfully there are spastics like Georgy Porgy and the other names he's used that make things funny and dark. But he's 100% wrong about literally everything and not very keen on understanding simple concepts and metaphors.

You seeing the good in people and the cause of that goodness which you attribute to meditation are two different subjects that you're purposely confusing after it's been pointed out to you how little you've thought about what you say. You clearly contradict yourself all the time, but not in a cool way. But in a "I'm a ditz" kind of way.

Make up your mind. Is RS making people good and holy as you first said, or are there good and holy people in general and i equal proportions regardless of their meditation or religious affiliation. You've said both now.

"You likely only associated with those who you're associated with"

Great observation. Thank you so much.

It really resonated with me because I have a similar issue of living only with the people I live with.

Jesse You stay in your negative world of hatred and I will happily stay in mine. I’m not interested in your views and yes this is the most negativity I have seen as I am blissfully happy in the world I live in. If You don’t like my comments then please don’t read them. It’s easy just scroll for who wrote the comment and skip my name. No need to read comments of low human forms as myself. (As you say).

Haiku with a halo,

You say: "You likely only associated with those who you're associated with".

When my husband and I left SA, with our three children, it was difficult, especially in NZ when I was confronted with "If I knew you were from South Africa I wouldn't have spoken to you". From another person "I hate South Africans".

My parents were born in England and also my husband, so being judged by the colour of my white skin and my accent was difficult and we kept to our satsangi selves. I also changed my accent to the best of my ability and we would attend satsangs and associated with satsangis when we moved to Australia.

No big deal. I am a loner now which is probably why I resonate with Zen teachings.

It's a forum, Texan Jen. We all have the right to talk respond to whoever we want unless the big boss Brian tells us otherwise.
You're so blissed out on your holy mediation that it drives you to come to a comments section comprised almost entirely of non or ex believers to try convincing us what we're missing. Like a recently dumped chick calling her ex to brag about the new perfect boyfriend she has and is gonna marry.... a week before she's single again and living back with her parents, jobless and depressed.

We've all seen these stories too many times,dear. At least spare me from it.

I've met 100s of satsangis and I guarantee I can make 99% of them lose their composure in 3 minutes by picking apart their beliefs. You're standing on a fragile foundation.

To Amar,

Thank you for your kind words.

"What made you consider doing the experiment?"

I was watching videos about people's experiences on DMT that sounded very similar to experiences of Surat Shabd Yoga. I also wanted to see what it would be like now to practice this form of meditation, after so many years of having nothing to do with Sant Mat. So I decided to "do the deal". I kept a spiritual diary and was meditating about 2 hours a day for the month of May, culminating with meeting Ishwar. It was all quite interesting. I'm still processing the whole thing.

"How was doing the Zen practice up until now, is it a satisfying path for you or have you come to a conclusion that there is something more/further you want to experience?"

I haven't practiced Zen much to speak of in quite a while. I found Zen Buddhism, when taken seriously, is just like any other religion. The experience I had back when I was 28 (I'm now 42) was precipitated by the notion that maybe there is no supernatural reality. The experience was like coming up for air after being held under water for a long time. Zen helped spur that thought, but it has its own style of spiritual woo.

If there is an experience that interests me, it is when I can drop all the metaphysics and be something of a rational empirical atheist. It isn't easy, much like thinking backwards for me. I still go off on spiritual tangents, though not as far or for as long as before. I mean, thinking that consciousness is just a product of brain chemistry, or that there is no agency such as mind or soul, or that events just happen by random chance may all sound mundane or disheartening or even blasphemous. But it never ceases to amaze me how thinking that way and acting from that premise brings me closer to what is actual spirituality. I think it is because all of this idealism supports the existence of a self, a persistent illusion. I have a saying: "The less I believe in God, the closer I come to Him."

There are some non-dual teachers who come close, though they still retain some metaphysical notions beneath the surface. A guy I watch from time to time is Roger Castillo, if you are interested.

Peace, my friend.

Nice to see a genuine seeker like Ned here with a sincere regard for honesty integrated with some decent human qualities like manners. Like mentioned before, they're few and far between.

Ultimately whether it's brain driven or spirit / soul driven whatever the search for unadorned consciousness is, it's fundamental to human nature.

Hi Jen from Austin
You wrote
"Jesse You stay in your negative world of hatred and I will happily stay in mine"

Well spoken Jen. But you may have said more than you intended.

In your world only the people who do their meditation are worthy and happy.

And not any meditation. Only RSSB meditation.

But the Master has said this isn't the only path.

And he had asked that we not Proselytize.

If you love someone, you do as they ask...until they steal hundreds of millions. Then your love takes the form of getting your hands dirty, getting in the pit with them, and when both you and they can honestly acknowledge where you are, both start digging yourselves out.

In my world it's the opposite of yours. The whole world is God speaking. Every smile is the Lord.

Just look at ZuZu's smile. Amidst pain, amidst decline, ZuZu smiles. If that's not God, then God doesn't exist. But ZuZu doesn't meditate. So why is she so happy?

She knows something you don't. She was born enlightened.

We are all the same.

Somehow you lost that. Your happiness, really, what does it mean if it requires separating yourself into a higher class looking down upon others?

No, you are still in illusion.

BTW when ZuXu gets a bath, it'not "shame on you for getting dirty!"

Not at all.

It's fun for both.

So Gurinder and family need a little cleaning. Nothing to be ashamed of.

It's just an opportunity to help, for intimacy.

Take a higher view, people.

Hi Ned. Thanks for the insightful response. I've been experimenting with mindfulness lately, coming slowly detaching from RSSB dogma. I find the awareness of being in the moment so refreshing. Albeit for only a few minutes at a time, but it sure is calming.

I don't like labels. Democrats/Republicans, believers/non-believers. I don't think it's as easy as labeling yourself one way or the other. There are typically merits to any position, but finding the right mix is essential for peace of mind.

Following Buddhism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, or RSSB, all "promise" something after death. No one really knows. You take the word of someone in the past or present that says salvation is achievable if you do this or that. The truth is somewhere in between.

It's a journey into your Self. Figuring out what's within you sounds right. How we go about doing it is the interesting part.

Cheers!

How far are you willing to take your "higher view" Spence? Because you're trying to paint a picture like a piece of jehovas witness art with men hugging lions. The view that a gentle and forgiving cleanse of the heart is all that's needed to right wrongs sounds fantastically naive and childish.

Maybe Pol Pot just needed a friend. Maybe Israel just needs a tv PSA that proves Arab children are humans who feel pain when they get engulfed with flaming hot white phosphorus too. Maybe the United States will stop bombing everyone on earth if our government gets the LOVE they need.

What a wonderful world it world be if problems were so easy to solve with "higher" minds.

Assuming this unreal goal of hippy utopia is good, to achieve it here on the earth we actually inhabit the need is eugenics, sorry to say. I know it's a bad word, but the more libertarian NAP derived version is actually quite palatable. Simply subsidize and help the good to multiply and prosper and let evil whither away in its self imposed poverty.

Amar

You need to get your nose out of Jesse’s arsehole. Any self-respecting Indian fella would distance themselves from these dudes asap

Spence you wrote
“In your world only the people who do their meditation are worthy and happy.
And not any meditation. Only RSSB meditation.”
So the first part of your statement is some what true the second is not at all. Happiness is an inside job and can be found in any path/inner practice. It’s about tapping into your true self, Which is essence is the power/god/divine that is all around us as well as within us. I don’t know about happiness for those that go about in the world without any desire for something greater than this life. Like I said I can’t speak for their happiness.
My very good friend who was catholic and through her practice developed a lot of faith in her life. At 35 she was detected with cancer that has mastised throughout her body and I tell you she went through a lot of physical pain for 2 years. But through it all she was sooo happy so content and so accepting of her destiny that if someone told me this story of hers I wouldn’t believe it. I had to experience it with her see her happiness to actually believe that it’s possible to be in that frame of mind whilst undergoing extremely negative circumstances. She Attributed all her strength in her faith in Jesus. Now I know many people on this blog will say this is nonsense as it’s a church less blog but i know these are real things that really matter.
So yes happiness is attainable in many paths and I do not underestimate the power of faith. That’s exactly what Faqir Chand says It’s all your faith and build that faith.

“We are all the same.
Somehow you lost that. Your happiness, really, what does it mean if it requires separating yourself into a higher class looking down upon others?. “
I have never separated myself into any class.or looked down on anyone. I think your speaking of some other people you know Spence. I just don’t appreciate negativity and disrespectful talk like some of you here love to do. It’s tasteless. I respect your thoughts and hope you respect mine.

“No, you are still in illusion. ”
Yup until I’m here I am. Never claimed not to be. 🙏

I’m very glad we starting to call each other names - Satsangis v the exes. My money is on the exes. Just more truth.

Spence at one stage seemed v concerned cos I said he was talking bullshit, which apparently was a swear, but it seems he’s resorted to the toilet too.

Good we are making progress. I think he’s a camp (not mein kamp) Adolph Hitler in disguise. In short, I’m worried that molests those shepherds late at night, when lonely. He’s not proud of it.

All bullshit aside, does it not strike you immediately that Jen and Dungeness are of a different ilk. I mean I like to throw the poo, as much as anyone, and Spence and Jesse are v enjoyable targets - but I mean we really have a lot to learn - perhaps GSD can teach us.

Georgy, appreciate your insightful comment. Lol, very poor visual by the way.

If you have time to pull your head out of your ass, maybe clean the shit off your glasses so you can can actually READ what you are SEEING. If you look back at any of my posts, you won't find me aligning with Jesse's comments at all. He is more outright in his condemnation of pretty much most "guru's", from what I can see.

Since apparently you're not RSSB, maybe YOU should go spend some time with GSD so he can teach you how to read a blog post and make some intelligent comments for once. Talk about jumping to conclusions without the facts, since you know nothing about GSD. You'd make a perfect disciple....

Cheers!


HI Georgy

You wrote
"but I mean we really have a lot to learn - perhaps GSD can teach us."

You have also stated before that you are not a Satsangi. Which raises three questions
1. What information do you have about him that leads you to believe that GSD in particular might be able to teach you something?

2. What is it you are seeking?

3. Do you attend Satsang?

4. Have you ever requested initiation?

5. Are you considering requesting it?

6. Are any of your family members Satsangis?

Non-specific dissolution:

Self conscious boundless esoteric love, overtakes incompatibility of different psychological truths in spirituality.

Recognition of absence of self consciousness stimulates sudden realisation. Independent thoughts promoted and provokes subliminal responses in the mental state of independent thought.
These thoughts distract from mindfulness, happiness and meditation; a self spontaneous appearance in conscious.
This place is vital; Virtual independent consciousness, silent intelligent thoughts or products of scientific psychedelics.

Unique reality unfolds empirically.

Georgy you clueless yob, What are you on about mate? I don't think Amar has ever acknowledged me on this site let alone agreed with me about anything.

And by the way, I get on really well with Indians, though you might not think so because of the way I talk crap online about their strange man worship habits or say harsh things to counter their misplaced nationalism.

The priests at the Venkateshwar temple here know me by name, as does the Granthi at the gurdwara. One of my favorite people on earth is a Gujarati who lived in USA until 2016. I still talk to him on WhatsApp a few times a week and i get messages from other Indians regularly asking me to come to India to spend time with them. My recently married Haryanvi friend and her brother have been writing me every few weeks asking when I'm coming to see them. Hopefully I'll be there in November for a wedding and can upload some pics for you with me and my respectable and some not so respectable Indian friends.

I'm generally around Indians and Indian things and attending Indian events. My wife is a Punjabi, my dude.

You know nothing. Not about religion. Not about human nature. Most certainly not about me. You won't find moksha or enlightenment, but try being correct about one thing in this life. It's possible with a bit of humility.

Hi Jen from Austin

I was referring to your vitriol towards me for simply presenting public information about GSD, that you made it personal unnecessarily, and your difficulty accepting the legitimacy of Sonya's perspective.

People really do the meditation and get results and don't think Gurinder's family taking hundreds of millions in loans and not paying it back deserves a pass.


It's not a matter of 'just meditate and be in bliss' when your beloved brother becomes embroiled in fraud. No. If you really know what's going on, if you have any sensitivity on this at all, it's like someone poured gasoline on you and set a match. Excruciatingly painful. And no you can't ever go back to the darkness ever again. All you want to do is help get your brother out of the mess he is in because you see it in detail at every level even if no one else does.

In fact the more time you spend in the inner regions the crazier it becomes that this guy who is supposed to be spiritually advanced would spend two seconds on building material wealth either for himself or anyone else. It's a complete derailment. A train wreck. But RSSB was always headed there.

If you have gone within then there are a couple of other things you know.

You know that there is zero difference between the inner regions and this world. It's all just perception. You go where your attention takes you in all events.

Secondly, that the path is a man-made, artificial method, like learning to make saute in cooking class. Two different chefs will have two different approaches. One size doesn't fit all. It isn't the creation actually. It's someone's attempt to teach a method to reach Shabd and merge with it. The method is an artificial technique to replicate a natural occurrence for some. Bhakti.

The organization that needs cash to publish and distribute the teachings, have centers, build centers that support whole communities of retired Satsangis, like, yes, near Austin Texas, manage all that cash and property assets, the whole culture bound model of a king his subjects love unconditionally, simply to mass produce initiates, while we'll - intended is doomed over time to human failings.

There really are Masters and some in the Sangat. They do not put themselves, nor allow themselves to be placed into any position of authority at all. The formal Guru role helps concentration to a degree but ultimately undermines the effort to connect with Shabd.

The Guru role is designed for people who like, admire and submit themselves gladly to people in power, highly talented people.

People who will only accept a suggestion from a person in authority. But can't tolerate any negative b feedback from anyone else.

They need a Guru to make progress.

Anyone who already knows they are nothing, a grain of sand, a particle of nature has already gone beyond that.

But I like that you believe you are open minded and appreciative of other's systems of belief.

No one could ask for more than that. Keep going there.

Mike England

This jibber jabber you speak is bullshit. Rather call a spade a spade than pretending to be silly in the head - we know you are alteady.

Just my 2 cents / feed that thru your bullshittimeter

Love
Georgy “Bullshit Entanglement” Porgy

Jesus what a bunch of wierdos. Now time for bed.

Spence I see you have a lot of issues with many many things that you mentioned. I am not in any place to answer your questions I can only say Good luck Brother I hope you find your answers and find comfort in where you are in your search/seeking.

With regards to Sonya’s perspective I think she was herself in a state of uncertainty/unsure. Read her recent comment she seems to have found comfort in her current state. So I don’t think I did anything to upset that in fact I may have assisted if anything.

Jen from Austin Texas,

So faith brings happiness? That does make sense although its like fooling yourself that you are one of the chosen ones, which is quite egotistical. Thats how I see it.

This world is about duality and I accept that there is good and evil, darkness and light, happiness and sadness etc. I often think that these so called happy people are quite selfish because as an empath I feel for the suffering of others.

Just my reaction to the 'happy brigade'. Ah well, this blog is good for a laugh anyway, good old Jesse! Could never continue here if you are too sensitive.


The Guru role is designed for people who like, admire and submit themselves gladly to people in power, highly talented people.

People who will only accept a suggestion from a person in authority. But can't tolerate any negative b feedback from anyone else.

They need a Guru to make progress.

Spence, are you talking outer Guru? Certainly, the mystics say the
outer Guru's role is to smile, prattle with the children, and pretend to
"teach" (hand out little chores to engage their minds) while the real
work goes on inside.

But that's a necessary stage for every disciple until the inner form is
reached.

Hi Jen from Austin

You wrote
"With regards to Sonya’s perspective I think she was herself in a state of uncertainty/unsure. Read her recent comment she seems to have found comfort in her current state. So I don’t think I did anything to upset that in fact I may have assisted if anything."

Sonya, were you in a state of uncertainty?

I didn't get that impression at all. I thought you were just being gentle, and Jen from Austin thought you were confused and tried to pull you along in her direction. Then you gently clarified and now I guess Jen gets it. Though she attributes this to her helpfulness.

I could be wrong in this.... Add it to my daily errors.

But here we can get it straight from the author... Sonya?


It's annoying as hell but you really need to be a bit pedantic in these cases of faith leading to happiness and precisely describe the anecdotal evidence and leave it at that.

In other words, saying "faith leads to happiness" when you mean to say "one person I know made the claim that the cause of their happiness was faith" is a big error.

Instead of 'Jen' I will call myself zenjen to save the confusion. This is what I resonate with...

All is suffering.

"The root of suffering is attachment" - Buddha

Hi Dungeness
You bring up a good point.
You wrote
"
Spence, are you talking outer Guru? Certainly, the mystics say the
outer Guru's role is to smile, prattle with the children, and pretend to
"teach" (hand out little chores to engage their minds) while the real
work goes on inside.

"But that's a necessary stage for every disciple until the inner form is
reached."

Here is what I believe...
The natural path is like a mother and child. Human children do not have the innate ability to survive. They must learn that from a lot of nurturing and education of others. They have a mother. But some children are orphaned and they get a mother assigned to them. Could be just as good, maybe better.

But, Dungeness, some people are just born with the connection. It's already there. That brings you to your next teacher automatically.

They hear Shabd when they read a book, they hear Shabd in a moment's concentration at the airport, even in the middle of a loud storm. It's just a natural part of them. They wake up in the middle of the night and the room is flooded with light. They spend time on the inner sea shore and are swept up often, at some point daily.

They are pulled in and up and their life actually becomes a conflict between forgetting and being pulled out, and remembering and being pulled up and not wanting to come down and out. They are children all their life. Their Master was always with them within. Even as a toddler there was never a moment they were alone. In glimpses, in dreams, and in quiet moments.

It's a private struggle, they find a balance. But no one who has Shabd wants to spend any time on things, other then minor distractions.

It's all done for us. There are Masters. But we don't call them Masters. They could be neighbors. Because we know them within we can them God. But we are them and they are us.

They could be sitting next to you on the bus or in church.

They are realized souls. Fate brings you together, kindness, love brings you together. They are your older brother. In an instant, you are connected to Shabd and changed for life. It's not formal. You don't submit a written request. Those formal approaches are photocopies.

You most certainly need mentors. But the real Masters simply do not allow themselves even to be called Guru. They are so far from the vertical organization called RSSB, so far from any authority, because that is just a ball and chain. They teach you to be free by avoiding an that. There is zero wealth in authority and a huge debt.

Well, it's a personal choice. There's no sitting in an audience of thousands looking at one person in the distance up on a stage. They are sitting right next to you. The person who actually connects you to Shabd knows you by name and you know them personally. They aren't going to say they did anything. That would be wrong. The focus is inside, where it should be. But there they are, Dungeness.

The Lord can speak to you through your children, even an enemy, even your dog.

If you can't see God in ZuZu, you get Gurinder.

I'm being a little facetious.
But try to understand what is already within you, and around you.

You were told certain things and in one sense they are all true. The whole package is within you. And we all need teachers. And a good teacher is a good friend, and it's a love affair.

But beyond that we don't need a formal organization acquiring huge tracts of land, huge centers, with a cadre of senior Satsangis involved in investment.

My parents taught me that the true Holy Mountain is within. The real Israel is within. Therefore any fight over territory is absolutely the mirror opposite. It's wrong. They weren't Satsangis. They just had a natural connection. But this lesson was clear, no organization of true spirituality owns even a mud hut. It's unnecessary and a distraction.

And the spiritual Masters whom I have met lead exceptionally ordinary lives on purpose. All their free time is spent within.

They make time for family and work associates. If you find one such mentor, you are blessed.

When you look at Gurinder, try to find that bliss around you.

Mr Spencer, Good Morning.

your insights into inner states inspiring and optimistic despite lots of pessimism floating aand reiterated by many of us hhelplessly about the spirit. Spiritualism, eternal lives, their rewards etc just because their dedicated and devoted
association with Saints, even at RSSB could not yield the desired results for which they cramped over years till they reached a breaking point to slit the ties.

Now their taking every insult of the cult/s they erstwhile belonged to as soldiers of stone - never letting a momentary disbelief and steadfast to the standard 4 vows with open arms is obvious.

Perhaps your paradoxical approach to the extremes either ways as both villain and hero of the RSSB guru, here the present Master is exemplary but real comfort can only be provided by the real and only Doer behind every act and thought - the Almighty if He so wishes - if He wishes to restore the lost faith in the authorised Mediator/s born or sent.

He carries the potential to act through infinite permutations and combinations of situations beyond our reach, approach and thoughts to work His way and is not in anyways dependent on our attitudes, moods, efforts and even love for Him for none is a stranger to Him, I believe.. He is common to all and private to each of us as proclaimed by perfect Saints ss Jesus, Nanak, Kabir et al.

Till such time insults and slurs are bound to be released by analytical minds / brains borne of earth with sense of self-inflating senses with them to the extent permissible in human species unlike animals who can barely figure out their relatives even not to think of God and supernatural stuff. Wish Him to be ever more gracious and pray for sensing us the subtle Truth RMr Spencer, Good Morning.
your insights into inner states inspiring and optimistic despite lots of pessimism floating aand reiterated by many of us hhelplessly about the spirit. Spiritualism, eternal lives, their rewards etc just because their dedicated and devoted
association with Saints, eeven at RSSB could not yield the desired results for which they cramped over years till they reached a breaking point to slit the ties.
Now their taking every insult of the cult/s they erstwhile belonged to as soldiers of stone - never letting a momentary disbelief and steadfast to the standard 4 vows with open arms is obvious.
Perhaps your paradoxical approach to the extremes either ways as both villain and hero of the RSSB guru, here the present Master is exemplary but real comfort can only be provided to us by the real and only Doer behind every act and thought - the Almighty if He so wishes - if He wishes to restore the lost faith in the authorised Mediator/s born or sent.

He carries the potential to act through infinite permutations and combinations of situations beyond our reach, approach and thoughts to work His way and is not in anyways dependent on our attitudes, moods, efforts and even love for Him for none is a stranger to Him, I believe..

Till such time insults and slurs are bound to be released by analytical minds / brains borne of earth with sense of self-inflating senses with them to the extent permissible in human species unlike animals who can barely figure out their relatives even not to think of God and supernatural stuff. Wish Him to be evermore gracious and pray to reveal innerTruth to us. The aawkward react Mr Spencer, Good Morning.
your insights into inner states inspiring and optimistic despite lots of pessimism floating aand reiterated by many of us hhelplessly about the spirit. Spiritualism, eternal lives, their rewards etc just because their dedicated and devoted
association with Saints, eeven at RSSB could not yield the desired results for which they cramped over years till they reached a breaking point to slit the ties.
Now their taking every insult of the cult/s they erstwhile belonged to as soldiers of stone - never letting a momentary disbelief and steadfast to the standard 4 vows with open arms is obvious.
Perhaps your paradoxical approach to the extremes either ways as both villain and hero of the RSSB guru, here the present Master is exemplary but real comfort can only be provided to us by the real and only Doer behind every act and thought - the Almighty if He so wishes - if He wishes to restore the lost faith in the authorised Mediator/s born or sent.
He carries the potential to act through infinite permutations and combinations of situations beyond our reach, approach and thoughts to work His way and is not in anyways dependent on our attitudes, moods, efforts and even love for Him for none is a stranger to Him, I believe..
Till such time insults and slurs are bound to be released by analytical minds / brains borne of earth with sense of self-inflating senses with them to the extent permissible in human species unlike animals who can barely figure out their relatives even not to think of God and supernatural stuff. Regards.

Please omit repetition in my previous comment which indvertemtly got lifted and pasted, Mr Spence.

Dr Eugene Genetics, during his irregular meditating, picked up a signal that is thousands of years old. It is mathematical, Simple equations that create infinitely complex symbols, like characters from a new language.
The missing link in human evolution and development. The Ancients of Modern Wisdom from the dawn of time. In humility Dr Eugene Genetics says he is the message and the messenger.

Droning intensifies alarm beeping

Meditator,
How high were you when you wrote that already weird but then cut and pasted it in oddly spliced segments 5 times without noticing?

And what substance caused the intense intoxication?

I'm in the local market looking for the good stuff.

Mr Jesse,
i had trouble with my mobile phone which I found difficult to handle. I am a plain naive fellow with not much strengths on mobile's screws and pads. Hope it has not hurt your heart. Once i started the characters automatically were getting misspelled and I tried correcting time and again and by the ttime I posted tthesess session expireexpired.

This was the trouble.

I am sure you would have got some blurred picture of what I wanted to convey. It may be big B.S. to a few but its my take, my belief.

My apologies.

PS : Next time I would use my PC or Laptop.

Mike England

Shut it

Amar

Oops apparently it’s Arjuna that’s the ass-creeper, apologies. Someone was burying his way up Jesse’s asspipe so far that I thought it my civic duty to try rescue him.

Georgy “Bullshit Entanglement” Porgy
You posted:
Mike England
Love Georgy
Now time for bed.

Not sure what you meant there.

Thank you for reading and understanding my posts.

The diktat of the outstretched maiden creates honest Samaritans. Okay

Meditator I'm just giving you a hard time. I've done some weird stuff trying to write on a phone, too. Even that comment I made in response to you was missing words because I tried to delete one letter and didn't notice I'd edited more than intended.

Mr Jesse,

I am no stranger to meaningful but terse and curt responses which. I always welcome. Since they make sense at times representing voice of their dilapitated hearts or their confused brains not accepting a weird situation altogether while coerced to. swallow it with coffee shake peacefully happily by the other side.

Cheers and regards.

Finally, England makes sense.

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