For a change of pace on this blog from news about the massive financial scandal the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, is involved with, here's some news about a massive real estate sale of property owned by RSSB in New York City.
Maybe Radha Soami Satsang Beas has started to raise cash to keep their guru in the lavish lifestyle that he's become accustomed to.
After all, reports in the Indian financial press indicate that in recent years Dhillon and his family were the beneficiaries of up to a billion dollars in shadowy and sometimes fraudulent unsecured loans.
But now the High Court of Delhi has frozen the assets of Dhillon, his wife, and children, with the intent of garnishing those assets (forcibly selling them) so his cousin, Malvinder Singh, can recover the money owed to him -- which Malvinder needs to pay a $500 million settlement to a company that successfully sued Malvinder and his brother.
It's a tough life, being a spiritual guru in India these days. Sure, in the days of the Buddha all you needed was a loincloth and begging bowl. Now private jets and expensive homes all over the world are necessities for Gurinder Singh Dhillon.
Hopefully the $26 million will keep him happy. For a little while.
Gurinder Singh Dhillon, the guru who doesn't pay his debts unless a court forces him to
Not looking good. Instead of doing all this crap they should have sold the books at a slight profit.
Not sure why I didn't ask this before, but has anyone ever heard of a case where assets of loan recipients are frozen when they've done nothing wrong and aren't being accused of anything as some are suggesting is the case with Gurinder?
If it came out tomorrow that my bank was involved in some sort of criminality I can't imagine that my house would suddenly be repossessed to forcefully repay the remainder of my mortgage. Unless of course I was never legally eligible to receive the mortgage in the first place and was complicit in doing whatever illegal things were necessary to receive the funds.
Maybe it's different in the corporate world, but it seems odd that Gurinder or anyone else would be forced to pay for their nephew/cousin/relatives mistakes.
Posted by: Jesse | June 18, 2019 at 10:48 PM
Just a thought, do you think perhaps indirectly the Indian Government is after the Dera? Corruption is rife everywhere, especially with those who hold the power. Look at the greed of the "fired" NZ ANZ Bank boss!
I have always wondered where the funds come from to sustain a place such as the Dera. It can't possibly be from donations, volunteers doing work as such or from other unknown sources, apart from perhaps selling some of the veggies, bricks, tiles etc and grains produced. Perhaps Gurinder and family and the Singh brothers were doing deals for purely benign reasons to support the Dera. It is after all in reality a sanctuary in the main for natives of India. Forget about all of the westerners who visit. Most westerners already have running water, proper latrines, warm beds, enough food, free medical care, and live in compassionate democracies. Oh and they don't have to fear about caste, class, having their children raped, or wives burnt, or having to produce a dowry most can't afford. The majority of the population of India live in dreadful conditions. At least the Dera, if nothing else, is an example of how everyday living can be for all in India. It is just the overall collective conscious mindset of a group of people that can either evolve that group or devolve it.
So I am just saying, in spite of all the evidence, there could have been a reason behind all of the money movement. (Taking in to account the dishonesty regarding the non-disclosure of the problem with the pharmaceutical company sale - how they thought they could get away with such a thing is incredulous).
Now don't get me wrong, I believe we are the MASTERS of our own destinies, and there are many gurus or teachers on our way to help, along with all of our experiences. At least Gurinder, in every discourse, when he first succeeded Charan Singh, told it the way it is. No fairy stories ( although I still love and adore fairy stories). Now, from my experience, in the past visits to NZ (excluding last year and this year) someone gives a discourse about adoration to the Master, etc, etc, along with, in my opinion, a whole lot of rambling rubbish, and then Gurinder answers the Question and Answer portion. Those people who ask the questions actually need counselling and if they are helped, then that is a good thing. Surely. I guess he can't give a long discourse, because, he too believes in the true Science of the Soul. So many people would be shattered and are not ready for a different point of view anyway. Many disciples need a Master. Just as little children need their kindergarten teachers.
Gurinder just visited NZ on 12/13 June. I was not able to attend, and have yet to hear what transpired. Now he was not stopped his departure from India was he?
Whether money laundering occurred, who knows, and for want reasons, only those involved know. All I see is an example called the Dera for the Indian government to follow and take up and to take care of their people properly. Not to try to obtain through insidious means.(Perhaps) But to build more Deras throughout the whole of India to house all of the millions living in dire poverty. India needs to take proper care of all if its little children, the country's future.
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 01:33 AM
That's our Science of the Soul Study Center.. The rssb.org website shows a photo of it but with a different address, which is for the back entrance. It's in a broad real estate hot zone, only a couple of blocks from where Amazon HQ2 almost landed. I can't imagine they paid very much for the site, when the neighborhood was still undiscovered. RSSB probably realized a decent profit, even after initial construction and about 20 years of maintenance, but I don't like the timing of this.
Posted by: anami | June 19, 2019 at 03:51 AM
Q didn't predict this. We did though.
@Anami Did they tell you guys in advance they were selling etc.?
Posted by: PJ | June 19, 2019 at 06:40 AM
How was GSD allowed to go to NZ (& possibly Australia) after his chamcha Sunil Godhwani wasn’t allowed to leave India?
Also, there is no mention of a deadline of when GSD has to repay the Delhi HC...does anyone know? I’m intrigued to know what the consequences will be if he fails to satisfy the court order
I see in Malvinder’s court filings he has identified several assets that GSD should sell in order to clear his debts (property in Singapore, west end & Chandigarh properties, parklane property, asola farmhouse etc). I presume there is a deadline after which the HC will execute its orders and forcefully sell the assets in order to recover the ill-gotten funds
Posted by: JS | June 19, 2019 at 07:02 AM
From my understanding of how RSSB works, the money in the hands of the the RSSB Society and all of it's locations around the world, are owned by the RSSB Society, not the guru. It clearly is understood and even stated on the website and all literature that the patron, the guru of the time, lives on his own money and does not live off the money of the sangat.
So I'm hoping this is just a coincidence. $26 million is a lot of money, but it's only 5% of the $500 million that needs to be paid back. Technically, it shouldn't be used to pay off the guru's or his family's personal debts.
Not sure how the portion of debt is being divided between all of the 56 entities. Maybe each has to give back a small portion and Malvinder and Shivinder have to give back the balance? Those details are not available.
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 07:39 AM
Fairy Gyani, what in the world are you talking about? That babbling nonsense hurts to read.
The dera is a resort. There is nothing the government can learn from the way it operates that they can apply to real society. There's about 9 full time residents and no economy in the dera.
As far as I know, most of the poor people sleep outside during the huge satsangs. They don't get private rooms like NRIs and foreigners do. India already struggles with people sleeping outside. It's called abject poverty.
Next tell us how USA could improve by emulating Disney World.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 07:57 AM
Wow, that's kind of strange. They actually sold off an active satsang center building. From the Google Maps image, it has the Science of the Soul Study Center verbiage and the logo on the building. Maybe the sangat isn't very large there or it's declining in that area?
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 08:02 AM
That’s an interesting question Jesse.
Im no expert but get the feeling it’s just such a crazy award 500Million (that the company had to repay to the Japanese buyer) that the only way to get close to recovering any of this money back is by simply freezing assets of all stakeholders regardless of their guilt or not. Wouldn’t surprise me if company goes bang. All v wierd.
I’d also be interested to know how many cases in history it has even been that a company which has been bought, then needs to return the money - it’s normslly buyer beware. Very strange. I mean even if the seller didn’t disclose certain details if you’ve got that money you don’t tend to keep it, you tend to re-invest it , so I’m amazed that anyone can recover 500 million smackers out of any business deal in the first place.
Posted by: Georgy Porgy | June 19, 2019 at 08:04 AM
Why does a company, with its own legal personality, have anything to do with a non-profit spiritual organization?
Posted by: Georgy Porgy | June 19, 2019 at 09:23 AM
Sorry, PJ, I haven't been going to satsang much for many years now. Maybe this Sunday to see what's going on. I just submitted for an email of the schedule and got the usual automated reply, same as ever. The use of the 46th Ave address suggests that satsang takes place in the back area now instead of the main hall, but I'm only speculating. We could always enter front or back. I might take a stroll today and see if anything looks different from the outside.
Posted by: anami | June 19, 2019 at 09:28 AM
JS, I'm curious where you found the court documents you mentioned. If you come across this comment, let me know via another comment or email me at the address in the right sidebar.
Posted by: Brian Hines | June 19, 2019 at 09:40 AM
As per SEBI report
promoters of creditor company and debtor company are same! if we talk in terms if individuals ever heard of loaning the amount to yourself? except that the source of money were public shareholders behind the public limited company and recipients were private behind private limited company.
it seems to me that malvin and shivin were moving proceeds from sale of ranbaxy into RSSB perhaps to avoid the fine but also using public money to cover private losses in the real estate business.
Posted by: Q8i | June 19, 2019 at 10:21 AM
Hi Georgy, good question. That's what the courts are going to dig into. One would hope and expect no link. But it appears there is something going, but we'll have to wait and see. This really is a convoluted cluster mess. Probably orchestrated that way on purpose.
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 11:11 AM
All the assets of the Dera and RSSB are under the ownership of the Guru.
RSSB is not financially independent, legally, from Gurindar.
Is all his to sell. All donated lands are his personal assets and there is no legal document separating them.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 19, 2019 at 11:12 AM
"Why does a company, with its own legal personality, have anything to do with a non-profit spiritual organization?"
Because both are managed by the same people and it would be unreasonably stupid to assume that those in charge wouldn't seek ways to leverage the non profit for tax breaks etc
They literally use the satsang ghar to count money. The symbology whether intentional or not is really cool in this scandal.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 11:16 AM
No changes evident. The RSSB lettering on the building is still in place front and back.
Posted by: anami | June 19, 2019 at 11:36 AM
Nope no one on here got any idea of the different structures - better get Anon back she’ll come back with the facts, rather than just trolling.
Posted by: Georgy Porgy | June 19, 2019 at 11:43 AM
Use Google, Georgy.
Religious institutions are notorious for money laundering. There's no reason to believe RSSB is above it, especially considering the fact that they have already converted a charity hospital into a corporately owned private hospital.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 12:23 PM
These properties/assets are listed by Malvinder within the (long) submission to the EOW. Towards the end, with all the emails to GSD...it’s on the email dated 12/07/18 (page 2)
Posted by: JS | June 19, 2019 at 12:23 PM
Could it be that since another property is being developed in Goshen New York that there is no need for this property.
Posted by: Di | June 19, 2019 at 12:31 PM
No this has been in the works for over 2 years. This is in prime spot in NYC.
Posted by: PJ2000 | June 19, 2019 at 12:48 PM
Spencer, really? I thought that Dera funds and monies were independent of the guru. If not, then if he does use the sale of RSSB properties for use on personal and family debts, this is a big no no.
I hope this doesn’t happen, because that would seal it for me personally.
Georgy, I’m sure we’d all love to hear Anon’s unbiased opinions.
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 12:52 PM
I just re-read the EOW filing Malvinder had submitted. When you re-read the letters he sent to GSD. He outlines a total of just under 8,700 crore rupees. With the google currency converter that comes out to "just" under 1.25 Billion USD dollars. That's billion with a big freaking B.
Holy crap. No wonder Malvinder was freaking out. That is an impossible amount to pay back. What a shit show and cluster f*ck this is. If anyone gets a chance to look at the submission again, which the High Court appears to have accepted, it's a good refresher to see what damage has been done in all this.
The names he addresses and the companies he identifies in the letters with the loans belong to all the members of the Dhillon family in various capacities of directorship. Surprising upon a re-look is how much Gurpreet Dhillon, GSD's eldest son, has rec'd. We're talking gobs of money. Boggles the mind.
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 01:55 PM
No to what, please? Can you clarify, and what is the future of satsang in the NYC area?
Posted by: anami | June 19, 2019 at 01:58 PM
I was reading Honest Living and found this quote timely. Here it is, as it is written in the book:
"The ways of trade are grown selfish to the borders of theft, and supple to the borders ... of fraud. ... Everybody partakes, everybody confesses ... yet none feels himself accountable. ... That is the vice, that no one feels himself called to act for man, but only as a fraction of man."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 02:15 PM
The authority of the RSSB board, the "society" is to manage the assets, but these are all the Guru's legally.
The separation of the Guru's wealth and assets from business vs the Sangat has no legal separations.
When wealthy Satsangis donated millions to the Sangat they understand they are giving their money to the Master to manage.
This is how the international Sangat centers could be used as collateral for property investments in India and elsewhere. And these are the assets that may be liquidated at some point.
But that won't happen voluntarily.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 19, 2019 at 03:28 PM
Brian you mean to tell me all this time you were conversing with anon on different court findings, you had not even read Malvinders full complaint? It’s clear you had not read it as you asked PJ what he was referencing. Anon was referring to that complaint when making the point that the HC ruling was based on that. Tsk tsk shame on you
This blog is a joke
Posted by: Vijay | June 19, 2019 at 03:46 PM
Vijay, I'd read the entire criminal complaint closely, and wrote a detailed blog post about it here:
I'd also scanned through some of the attachments, but hadn't studied them in detail. So I'd forgotten, or had never known, that Malvinder describes the exact amounts of money that Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family members owe.
In regards to Anon, she mainly talked about how the SEBI reports don't mention Gurinder Singh Dhillon or his family, which is true.
But Malvinder's criminal complaint DOES mention Gurinder, his family, and Sunil Godhwani, the guru's right hand man -- a lot. So the criminal complaint points, obviously, to the guru's alleged criminality.
I keep mentioning this complaint in my blog posts, but I don't believe Anon used it to defend the RSSB guru. How could she? The complaint says that the guru and his family, along with Godhwani, conspired to siphon over a billion dollars from Malvinder and companies once controlled by him.
So it's good to see that you and others are paying more attention to the criminal complaint now that the High Court of Delhi is forcing the Dhillon family to repay the money that they wrongly got.
Posted by: Brian Hines | June 19, 2019 at 04:00 PM
And if you read the letters he wrote to bBJ you will see that he was asking BBJ to give him properties that belonged to him. Clearly saying to BBJ that he is putting him in a difficult situation. The tone of the letter is completely different. Not the tone of someone who is owed millions of dollars. Something is amiss. Yet you won’t give BBJ the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he is put in the middle of this mess created by others. Looks to me like that’s the whole point anon was trying to make. He did mention this complaint as if you read his comments you would notice he said that a name in the HC order was exactly copied from Malvinders complaint as it was one that was misspelled (a case of copy and paste). I wondered what he was refering to and then realized it was the name of the daughter in law. He was right it was wrong and was lifted directly from the complaint.
Posted by: Vijay | June 19, 2019 at 04:21 PM
Hi Vijay, Brian Ji and Amar!
Thank you Brian Ji for posting Malvinder's 76 page complaint as a link that we can all download and read.
Dear Vijay. Please read it and share your reflections and insights, as Amar has done, so you join our conversation with full understand and intelligence.
The complaint itself is only the first 12 pages. Beyond that are all the letters and accounting ledger summaries.
The letters themselves are heartbreaking. Year after year Malvinder is pleading with his Guru to help out by paying Gurindar's debts. Malvinder's anxiety by being hounded day after day by creditors is reflected in the letters he wrote to Baba Ji, as if Baba Ji had engineered all this and his subordinate, seeing everthing fall apart, was begging his master to take responsibility. It's crushing to read Malvinder's letters.
Then we read that a representative of Baba Ji started going after the other loan recipients but not Baba Ji, and Malvinder must ask why, when that won't be enough.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 19, 2019 at 04:29 PM
Jesse, Tell me please, where do the funds come from to sustain the Dera and all of the sangats around the world? An piece of prime real estate was purchased some years ago in Auckland by the International airport. It is currently being developed into the new satsangar. I do not live in Auckland, nor do I attend satsangs. I do not know the details. I guess RSSB is a non profit organisation. No taxes to pay. I still can't see how donations from wealthy Indians can sustain the entire organisation. Where does all the money come from? Rent from lands? What land? They are all used as satsangars are they not?
Jesse, what an unkind thing to say. You did not understand what I was trying to convey. India could do well you emulate the self sustaining practices of the Dera. To liken it to Disneyland is really very mean and unkind. I have not been since 1989, when the Dera opened after several years.
All I am saying is, India could do well to build better housing for the poor, build sewage ponds, have proper drainage systems, and pass laws to stop the practice of all if the totally non loving and non compassionate occurances that happen due to outdated traditions and conventions.
In spite of what you say, I thought there was a free school at the Dera. It is still on the website. The hospital still functions. There is a waste management system etc, etc, etc.
I thought thousands, if not millions of people get fed and housed whenever there is a huge gathering.
The gurus of RSSB are just like the rajas of the past are they not?
I don't know anything about money laundering and criminal moving of funds. Not in my spheres of thought or being.The point I was trying to make was, was the money laundered through RSSB for RSSB?Yes I am incredibly stupid, and most people in positions of power are, or become corrupted.
The greatest spiritual being on the planet at present in my opinion, is His Holiness The 14th Dalai Lama. A true Bodhisattva.
We are all only human beings, subject to certain failures. Every single one of us. But really, who would want to be a Patron of RSSB. What a heinous responsibility.
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 04:32 PM
Thanks for clarifying Spence. I always though it was at arm's length from the guru. Yikes. Have to see how far the courts go on this.
Posted by: Amar | June 19, 2019 at 04:40 PM
Funny how everyone here is putting their attention on the GURU. Post and present and non satsangis. Hee, hee!
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 05:12 PM
Whatever you focus your attention on, either pulls you up or pulls you down. Entirely your choice!
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 05:19 PM
Oh and Jesse, all I was saying, is that the largest democracy in the world does not take good care of ALL of its people. From a country seeped in ancient spiritual revelations, beautiful ancient architecture, great sages and philosophers, gurus and teachers of a better way if life, just look at it now! There always has been, is, and always will be corruption within those who control. A benign dictator is a fairy myth!
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 05:50 PM
Hi Fairy Gyani
"Perhaps Gurinder and family and the Singh brothers were doing deals for purely benign reasons to support the Dera."
The problem arises when funds are siphoned, basically stolen, from other people in a publicly traded company and rather than simply own up to it and offer to repay, the Guru remains silent so that those who trusted him now take all the blame.
You can handle charity in the right way, or you can handle it in a dishonest way.
But in all cases Gurindar and family should pay their bills.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 19, 2019 at 05:51 PM
Gyani, obviously democracy isn't universally good or necessary and has nothing to do with the dera in this context aside from the fact that the dera is a high functioning dictatorship(that gets a lot of very crucial help from foreigners).
No government can or even should take care of all its people because governments aren't charities. India's government plays its role will in some areas and fails in others. Nothing unique about it.
Add to that the fact that they were bullied by the West into stopping a program in the 1970s that attempted to curb the population explosion of the most troublesome and least productive. It becomes apparent that their struggles don't originate with the government which you don't seem to understand are selected from the same population you think is being neglected. Both their problems and solutions are the people themselves.
You went to a big ashram and had a good time. All this unpacking and comparison of your meditation retreat to the government of a population of a billion serves no purpose other than to spread fantasy.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 06:44 PM
"Jesse, Tell me please, where do the funds come from to sustain the Dera and all of the sangats around the world?"
Relatively rich white people, Non Resident Indian professionals and it now looks like it's possible that money was stolen from Indian shareholders.
This is another reason India can't solve their problems by emulating the dera. India can't simply steal money, access free labor or get rich foreigners to buy them things. India also can't kick people out easily either like a dera can.
You're too far gone in la la land to bother with but I'll tell you anyway, Gyani. You complain that indias government doesn't house people for free, but you're not aware of the high rises in Mumbai which were given to the poor who almost immediately sold or rented out their apartments and went back to the streets. The issues are far more dynamic and multi faceted than simply saying "everywhere should be like my 2 days in the resort.
You're also not aware that the dera has made elderly residents homeless with almost no notice and also pressured widows into giving up their homes to the dera and other shady things.
If you think rssb's slick ad videos are a full representation of their activities you're mistaken.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 06:59 PM
Hi Spence, Yes I agree with you. Maybe Gurinder is not actually a good business man afterall. Somebody once on this site said that he was just a simple quite wealthy man living in Spain, before he became the patron of RSSB. Now I don't know whether that is true or not. Maybe his financial advisors have created all of this, as has been suggested. No doubt eventually all will be sorted in the end and with the corruption at the top, the winners will be those with the most "clout". Every religion has its day, rises and falls. There is no religion higher than the truth. At the end of the day, funny how all of us somehow have a karmic connection through Santmat. How can one see the bigger picture? I cannot see my world as long as I am in it.
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 07:35 PM
Please dont spread wrong about
Babaji, brother. What's in it for your blog anyways to discuss these matters publicly? We truly believe in our master and these things bring a bad light in public so please request to not spread such news unless there is a proper proof.
Posted by: Prakash Singh | June 19, 2019 at 07:46 PM
Every above who are commented are sleeping in a deep sleep.! Those are all fake information about maharaj ji . If you'all really wanted to know who is he, go inside dera and attend the satsang . Each one of you'll apologize and take back all your words regards him . Once in a life any one of you'll attend the satsang and let me see who is is gonna talk all negative assumptions about him the outside .
Posted by: ANOOP kumar | June 19, 2019 at 08:13 PM
Guru Manyo Granth
Guru Granth sahib ji maharaj is the only Guru
The khalsa panth is the only Guru
Dhan Guru Gobind singh ji mahraj
Dhan dhan sikhi
Dhan Waheguru ji
Fake baba and fake cults like this deserve the worst for their crimes
Stupid people who follow RSSB
Posted by: Pauldip Ghuman | June 19, 2019 at 08:14 PM
The Guru do not use the dera money for his personal use. If dera money to be used, all the loan can be paid in the next hour.
And media is responsible for maligning the name for a fraud done by a company. A company can be related to anyone and anyone can be investor.
And it's foolishness to talk about spiritualism when people can go.to any extent to achieve TRP.
Posted by: sunny anand | June 19, 2019 at 08:15 PM
India is poor because elites in india have been siphoning money to the west for centuries now, latest example is vijay mallya or nirav modi etc. They get shelter in london or switzerland mainly. Dera is one example where siphoned money has been invested in india itself. If all the siphoned money was reinvested in india then all of india would look as good as dera but then standard of living would drop in the west especially now that chinese money is also going elsewhere due to the trade wars.
I'm not even getting into the brain drain from india, i'm happy trump is sending them packing their bags back, that should knock some sense in them and if they have any self respect they would go home and redevelop india.
Posted by: Q8i | June 19, 2019 at 09:02 PM
Jesse, the U.S. government can and does regularly seize the assets of people who are convicted of a crime. I guess it follows that the government of India exercises the same power.
Posted by: J | June 19, 2019 at 09:04 PM
Hi Jesse, You make incorrect assumptions. I did not have a good time at the Dera and have never been back. I did however, have a great time shopping in New Delhi. How scatty is that? I am most fortunate that my karma was to be born to a hard working class family in a country that really cares about all of its people whoever they are. I agree with you, throughout the entire world, it seems that those who are least able to cope, procreate the most. The communist regime in China tried to fix their population explosion.
I do not rely on servants to clean up my mess. I sweep my own floor and the outside. I would sweep the floor of anyone who needed me to and the street. No human is lesser than I am.
I said earlier and clearly you did not read that bit or understand, the group consciousness of a people is governed by those who have the strongest thought patterns. The hundredth monkey syndrome ( now called something else) has been proven by science. Therefore the evolvement or devolvement of a race, group or species, is governed by its group consciousness.
It is very sad if what you say is happening with the residents ( the 9 you spoke of earlier) at the Dera. All the more proof of old busy body men with outdated modes of traditional and conventional ways of thinking. Not actually practising the real principles of Santmat.
Funny how there are so many gurus, sadus, so called spiritual people within India. I wonder why?
Perhaps the Dalits are the ones to sweep all the corruption and everything clean!
Oppression is a dreadful thing and it is love and compassion that must reign.
Look, off the subject, I realise, but what the heck, at the end of the day it is about RSSB isn't it? And it is an Indian philosophy.
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 09:19 PM
Posted by: Naveen Kumar | June 19, 2019 at 09:28 PM
Oh, and if I still function and pay my bills and contribute to the society I live in, and am kind and caring to all life forms, then Jesse, I like my la, la land. At the end of the day it is "As A Man Thinketh!" ( Meaning humankind, in case you don't get it).
Posted by: Fairy Gyani | June 19, 2019 at 09:30 PM
"The complaint says that the guru and his family, along with Godhwani, conspired to siphon over a billion dollars from Malvinder and companies once controlled by him."
I think this will be extremely hard for Malvinder to prove in court. He's basically claiming that the Dhillon family enticed him, bargained with him, or forced him to funnel money from the companies he controlled to the Dhillons. But Malvinder was the primary steward of that money. To put it another way, it was impossible for the Dhillon family to "siphon" money from Malvinder's companies if Malvinder hadn't been willing to make that happen.
So why did Malvinder do it? There must have been a quid pro quo. an upside for him. Obviously, unless a good portion of that money is found to have ended up in secret accounts of Malvinder, the quid pro quo was likely Guru Seva combined with the Indian fanatical loyalty to family.
One of the financial websites covering this story speculated that Malvinder may have somehow owed money to the Dhillon family. Money or whatever, Malvinder clearly felt he owed that family something, otherwise it's very hard to figure out why he did it. Perhaps they promised him a big return once the real estate market took an upswing. Perhaps everyone was involved just to help the Guru, and by extension, his holy family. Perhaps everyone was just motivated by greed. Perhaps they were all motivated by fear of their real estate empire falling apart, and thought these loans would only be a stopgap on the way to a "sure thing," and would harm no one. Perhaps Gurinder is the ring leader and callously ordered Malvinder and others to fork over money. Or perhaps Gurinder really was out of the loop for these financial decisions.
I have my own ideas and suspicions about why this happened, and they don't all come down to one or two things. I suspect that a variety of motives were involved.
But for Malvinder to successfully make the case that the family "siphoned" the money? I don't see that happening unless Malvinder's brother and Godhwari all join Malvinder in laying out a strong evidentiary case where they were directed and coerced by Gurinder to embezzle those funds.
Posted by: J | June 19, 2019 at 09:34 PM
J, Malvinder's criminal complaint against Gurinder, the Dhillon family, Sunil Godhwani, and others alleges that the conspiracy was orchestrated in part by Godhwani --- after he was installed as the CEO of Religare at the request of the RSSB guru.
So Malvinder apparently wasn't the one in charge of siphoning the money out of his own companies and into the pockets of the Dhillon family. Godhwani and possibly others at Religare and Fortis were, along with the members of the Dhillon family and their associates who controlled shell companies at the time that received the fraudulent loans and passed the money on to the Dhillons.
A blog post I wrote tonight contains messages from Malvinder that cast light on all this, which admittedly is a complex subject that is difficult to understand in full.
Posted by: Brian Hines | June 19, 2019 at 09:53 PM
The problem arises when funds are siphoned, basically stolen, from other people in a publicly traded company and rather than simply own up to it and offer to repay, the Guru remains silent so that those who trusted him now take all the blame.
Hm, the silence extends to various actors, including his family, the Godhwani's,
assorted relatives, and those in their orbit too. With ongoing investigations and
criminal complaints, this deafening silence is almost certainly occurring on the
advice of their attorneys.
It's undoubtedly sound legal strategy too. Clarity and legal resolution is the
purview of the courts. It won't be advanced by press releases or tearful
interviews. Besides, the "hang 'em" crowd only want a confession from GSD
to support a foregone verdict. Blind believers, on the other hand, will seize
upon the "He isn't guilty... it's the divine will unfolding" defense.
Then there's a third group. I call them the "holy roller' evangelists. They looked
at the "facts" exhaustively. consulted their crystal ball, and declared GSD guilty.
The knew in their heart he hadda to be complict. Besides, he ain't no barefoot
Jesus... look at his jet, his wealth. By their fruits, ye shall know them.
Ah, but there's a redemptive path. GSD just has to enter the revival tent,
confess, repent, and all's forgiven. Oh, and he'll need to pay for all the
fraud he masterminded. See... we only need a CofC court to decide.
Posted by: Dungeness | June 19, 2019 at 10:04 PM
"Once in a life any one of you'll attend the satsang and let me see who is is gonna talk all negative assumptions about him the outside"
Anoop Kumar, I've been to a couple of Bab's satsangs in Chatarpur, and I was scheduled to be at the dera for 6 days in 2008 I believe it was. I attended one huge satsang on my first day, then went to the evening meeting with Baba and asked him a question. His answer was so bad and dumb that it was the catalyst for my departure from RSSB and "sant mat" forever.
So, you're wrong.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 10:35 PM
"If all the siphoned money was reinvested in india then all of india would look as good as dera but then standard of living would drop in the west especially now that chinese money is also going elsewhere due to the trade wars."
This is pure idiocy. You don't need money to not piss and shit on the side of the road. People piss on the streets, throw acid in each others face, have an abominable sex ratio because they kill their daughters, clean vegetables with sewer water, and generally create all kinds of problems without the government in any way interfering. You could bring back every single paisa of "black money" and nothing would change. It'd all be squandered immediately and the population would shirk civic responsibilities even more.
The idea that you need a government to babysit you is absolute bullshit and the same infantile anti-reasoning that makes you worship men and statues instead of working to succeed in easily attainable goals.
Also, if your reasoning is correct and it's theft that ruins things, why is this dera that is run by a thief doing so well? Don't roast yourself trying to answer.
You need to get this eternal victim mentality out of your mind. It's a disease.
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 10:46 PM
"Jesse, the U.S. government can and does regularly seize the assets of people who are convicted of a crime. I guess it follows that the government of India exercises the same power."
Obviously they seize the assets of criminals. The US government also seizes assets of shop owners because they deposit cash in the bank and cash is immediately seen as suspicious to the goons we call police.
The only related question I remember asking was whether or not the borrowers were somehow liable in this case. If Gurinder just borrowed money like any business or billionaire guru might do, would the government just steal his shit, or would the government take the role of the lender and the guru business be given the chance to repay the loan on its original terms?
Posted by: Jesse | June 19, 2019 at 10:53 PM
Facts are of three types one which you see, one which other say and one which actually is. Don't get judgemental immediately.
Posted by: Dhiresh | June 19, 2019 at 10:53 PM
"See... we only need a CofC court to decide."
That must be an old cut and paste you did.
Because today we don't need to pass judgment. Wakey wakey, Dungeness. the High Court of India deliberated and rendered judgment last week.
The verdict for Gurindar and others?
He was ordered to pay and his assets frozen.
Now the blinkered Satsangis that cried "let the court decide" are crying "the court judgment isn't a real judgment!"
Dungeness, your future has already happened.
Posted by: Spence Tepper | June 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM
Wow.. People are so brilliant here, if a saint is having jet, good life, everyone has a problem with that, look at the thought process, if someone wears a loincloth & take a begging bowl then only that person is Saint.. I am sure at the times of buddha there must be many people who would have considered him wrong... Had we discussed about what one teaches and compared it with some other teachings, it would have been a constructive criticism if u found a fault in it... Whereas we are discussing Loincloth, Bowls, Jets, Lifestyle...
They say it is blind faith which resists seeing the reality... One can argue for ever on this thing and nothing will come out of it.. Blind Faith is something that we do when we worship the stone, water, trees...Let's not get deep into it... if we talk about wots happening, we dont even know what exactly was the situation, how and wot in real happened, yet we are talking so Fluently about it as if it happened right in front of us...
High Court Order is a part of procedure, if there is case, these are things which court follows..
But we are creating so much of hype as if someone took away our Bread from our hands... We never listened to anything that one has always shared in one's discourses yet we have made Uncountable judgements...
We even dont know wot we are, how we are, why things happen to us in certain way and to others in another way and yet we talk about everything...
We all have very limited period of time here, Lets make Good use of it.. We must not focus on what we dont like or wot we hate.. Noone is asking us to change our thought process but Lets just start paying attention to the opposite, start focusing on what we like or Love..
Talking ill/bad for someone is anyway considered not right.. That too of someone who has changed lives of these many people.. Not good at all for all of us.. Wot are we, how many lives have we improved, did we even care to improve our own life..
I am sorry if someone felt bad of what i wrote.. If you have anything you wish to say you could write me an email [email protected]
Posted by: Rahul Kurra | June 19, 2019 at 11:01 PM
looks like i hit a nerve.
To the question that you asked
if your reasoning is correct and it's theft that ruins things, why is this dera that is run by a thief doing so well?
i already answered that in the previous reply that the siphoned money was reinvested in india as an exception instead of being siphoned off to london or switzerland.
rest of your reasoning to blame people i would say until this macro culture of theft from people and depositing to the bankers in london or switzerland stops for good you cant really expect better from the people.
Posted by: Q8i | June 19, 2019 at 11:33 PM
Because today we don't need to pass judgment. Wakey wakey, Dungeness. the High Court of India deliberated and rendered judgment last week.
The verdict for Gurindar and others?
Guilty. He was ordered to pay and his assets frozen.
Gosh, ya went with the divine misspelling "Gurindar" again. Wakey, Wakey :)
I'm all in for asset freezing in case you if you didn't "divine" that. What I
was talking about was those "holy roller" evangelists who decided from
the git-go that Gurinder that guilty. "Yep, knew it all along, didn't need
a stinkin' court to adjudicate it. We third-eye savants here on CofC can
spot fake, greedy Gurus faster than you can say 'Pay da man, Dude'."
Posted by: Dungeness | June 20, 2019 at 12:49 AM
Let me give a link to an excerpt from my latest book which has 3 chapters about RSSB.
Posted by: Matheikal | June 20, 2019 at 12:49 AM
Rahul I agree with what you have written. Thank you for your thoughts.
Posted by: Vijay | June 20, 2019 at 02:47 AM
Please share question and answer for your comment below
"I attended one huge satsang on my first day, then went to the evening meeting with Baba and asked him a question. His answer was so bad and dumb that it was the catalyst for my departure from RSSB and "sant mat" forever"
If you can also share what you think would have been a good and smart answer instead please.
Do you have any path in life currently or are you into any religion?
You sound like good human being but a brainless like Brian the way you respond and make your points here.
Eagerly awaiting for your response!
Posted by: Me | June 22, 2019 at 09:06 AM
Big mistake to make humans into godly masters.
Posted by: Al | February 17, 2020 at 05:07 PM
I'm sorry that you (Hines) lost your faith. I don't have the patience to sift through the details of lawsuits, business transactions etc. but it seems to me that the accusers could be guilty parties.
I went to satsang for many years before initiation, partly because I had a hard time staying away from alcohol, and partly because I was in love with Hazur (from a photo and the CDS of his Q&As) - I didn't think Baba Ji could capture me in the same way, but I was wrong. Just so you know, I'm considered to be fiercely intelligent, skeptical and critical, but he's convinced me thoroughly. Do you really think Hazur made a mistake appointing his successor?
Posted by: Louise | March 19, 2023 at 08:33 AM