Malvinder Singh's message to the RSSB guru is moving

At the end of the attachments to the criminal complaint filed by Malvinder Singh against his cousin, Gurinder Singh Dhillon (the guru of Radha Soami Satsang Beas), there's some messages that are both moving and enlightening -- as they cast light on the complicated financial scandal involving the Singh brothers, the Dhillon family, and others.

I'd looked at these quickly when I wrote a blog post about the criminal complaint. Today I read them more thoroughly. I've made screenshots of several messages from Malvinder to make it easier for other people to read them.

To begin with, in May 2018 Dhillon agreed to settle his debts if Malvinder and Shivinder (Malvinder's brother) would submit an accounting of what is owned to them by the guru and his family.

Then, below is a letter addressed to the RSSB guru, whom Malvinder ("Malav") refers to with the honorofic, Babaji. This alone is interesting, since Malvinder is both a relative of Dhillon and also an initiate of his. 

You can read how Malvinder addresses Gurinder Singh Dhillon with the utmost respect, even capitalizing You and Your, seemingly in the same way "God" is capitalized by religious believers.

Malvinder is desperate to resolve the financial difficulties that are causing him so much distress. In response to Dhillon's request for the liabilities owed, Malvinder describes what Dhillon and his family need to pay.

(Two other messages I've shared that follow describe the problems involving Dhillon and his family in more detail, as does the criminal complaint itself, of course.)

Presciently, Malvinder recognizes that various investigations into financial wrongdoing have the potential to be very dangerous to the Singh brothers, the Dhillon family, and others involved with shady loans. 

He presents a way forward that, in his view, would resolve the problems. Perhaps not completely, but largely. Here's the message to Dhillon.

Later, Malvinder turns his attention to the three companies named in a SEBI (Securities and Exchange Board of India) report detailing fraudulent transactions, after apparently failing to get a response from Dhillon to his July 12 message. 

What's significant here is that Malvinder draws a connection between (1) the fraudulent money diverted from RHC (Religare) and Fortis to the three companies named in the SEBI report (Best, Fern, Modland), and (2) who ended up with the fraudulent money -- Gurinder Singh Dhillon and his family.

Several commenters on this blog have been trying to make a big deal out of the fact that the first SEBI report didn't mention Dhillon, his family, and close associates as being involved in the fraud.

However, Malvinder's criminal complaint names Dhillon, et.al., as does his messages below, where he makes it clear that the Dhillon family owes money to the three companies, and those companies owe money to Religare and Fortis. Thus this establishes a clear link between the fraud described in the SEBI report and the ultimate beneficiaries of that fraud.

Pankaj apparently was in charge of Best Health Care, based on his email address.

A second message was sent on November 28. Malvinder is even more desperate now to be paid the money owed him by the guru and his family, which totals $158 million just for funds diverted from the Best Group of companies.

What's disturbing in all this is how Malvinder's relative, Gurinder Singh Dhillon, who he also considered to be his father figure and spiritual advisor, was so uncaring and unresponsive to Malvinder's entreaties.

Not exactly how one would expect a guru who is considered by devotees to be God in human form should act. In fact, it isn't even anywhere close to how a decent human being should act.

It must have been difficult for Malvinder to decide to file a criminal complaint against Dhillon, given how close they once were and how much trust Malvinder once had in the RSSB guru. But Gurinder Singh Dhillon ignored Malvinder's repeated requests for the guru to pay back the money that was owed to him and the companies he once controlled.

So whatever befalls Dhillon, he deserves it. At the moment the Dhillon family has gotten their assets frozen by the High Court of Delhi, which then will be sold by the Court. Whether they also will face criminal punishment remains to be seen.

Comments

[JS]

What I notice in the emails from Malvinder (attached in his EOW submission) is the tone changing dramatically as time passes and he feels he isn’t getting anywhere.

Whereas he starts off extremely respectfully, he appears to become increasingly desperate in his later emails.

Total conjecture from me but he’s probably starting to realise that GSD not a holy man, but rather just an unscrupulous, dodgy business and together with his family + friends, have ripped him off.

What I do find absolutely astonishing is Shivinder’s silence. Only reading the Bloomberg article from last year, the undisputed facts of case against GSD are clear (absolutely no legal challenge from GSD against Bloomberg)...This only supports Malvinder’s assertion (in his legal submissions) that Shivinder was promised the hot seat after GSD “left” in exchange for waiving his debts.

What this whole sordid saga shows, more than anything, is GSD is just a normal person, with a normal persons weaknesses such as greed, lust and materiality. A holy man would spend 24/7 helping the needy, not be embroiled in such distasteful legal cases.

As the SEBI investigations progress, I think this will get a whole lot worse for Malvinder, Shivinder and GSD...

[Spence Tepper]

The letters are the cry for help from a man who followed his Guru's advice, to the benefit of the Guru but to his own undoing.

Interesting to note that Malvinder only learns afterwards of the Best diversions to Gurindar after the fact.

It appears that all the Modland Wears, Best and Fern diversions to Gurindar were a collaboration of Shivinder at Fortis and Pankaj's teams at those shell companies.

[Amar]

Hi JS, nice write up, not sure about the lustful part, but spot on with my sentiments.

Yes, Shivinder and Sunil G have been eerily silent, which means there's more to come on this. I think there's complicity with a good number of people mentioned here, how much and to what monetary value each is responsible for, hopefully will get flushed out as time goes on.

[Rohit]

GSD and Malvinder are no way cousins....

[s*]

Everybody makes mistakes..this is a big one and with so much people involved..

Maybe everything needs to get in a totatly different ''place''.

So one does not know why all this is happening..

I remember in the first period of the ''New Master''..he said:

''Everything has it's place..'' I liked that,it was good to hear that..

Now I say..''everything has its place..''and there must be a reason for everything..

We do not need to depend on a ''Guru'',we need to listen to our own Self..forinstance..
Again,teachers are good..but.. You know..
<3

[Nancy]

Brian I have news for you....................you are obsessed by GSD. You may have given up guarding him physically but through this blog your mind is constantly guarding him.

[Tajinder]

I would like to ask question to the author of this page..is he a well wisher of malvinder and enemy of GSD bcoz his all articles till date shows his some personal enmity with GSD rather than giving unbiased reporting for both the parties...
Can Malvinder show the proof if loan taken by GSD family has some boundation period or at what interest he has given the money...there is nothing written anywhere as such about the timeframe of payback...so malvinder cannot directly blame GSD for it...
Secondly Malav was chairman of the group and if somethong is fishy was going on than what he was doing at such a high post....
By reading all your biased articles i am damn sure that author of this page, Malav and Sunny are hands in gloves with this big fraud...
My email id - [email protected]
Mobile - 9876631766
Reply me author...waiting

[Rajneesh Sareen]

I don't know whos.stating the truth but one thing is sure that babaji s role is not above board.
There are shady dealings which happened between these people and these are coming is public domain as the value of siphoned money has depreciated.

[Brian Hines]

Nancy, I have some news for you also. I'm not obsessed with Gurinder. I spend zero time thinking about him outside of the posts I write for this blog. I have two other blogs that never mention Gurinder, and I'm happily working on a book based on my early posts on this blog in 2004 and 2005.

I write about Gurinder because, as I often say on this blog, i'm now an atheist who is most familiar with the religion I was associated with for 35 years, Radha Soami Satsang Beas. If I'd de-converted from Catholicism, I'm sure I'd have been writing about child sex abuse scandals.

Instead, I'm writing about a financial fraud scandal involving the RSSB guru. One of my goals is to expose RSSB devotees, which I assume includes yourself, to the benefits of critical thinking and an open mind.

I use critical thinking to understand investigative reports and stories in the Indian financial press, and to draw inferences from this information. I have an open mind about what will happen next, including whether Gurinder somehow is absolved from wrongdoing in this matter.

I want to be an example to others (unlike Gurinder, who has been a poor example, given that he failed to pay his debts and an Indian court has had to force the sale of his assets to get the debts paid), and hope that devotees of the guru will be as open-minded as I am by leaving open the possibility in their own minds that the RSSB guru was a co-conspirator in the financial fraud.

When I write about this issue, it's pleasing that the daily visitor count to this blog goes up, and by quite a bit. This shows that people around the world want to read about the hypocrisy of religious leaders.

After all, Gurinder sits on a podium and preaches about the necessity of leading a simple life and of engaging in honest living, yet the evidence shows that he is doing just the opposite, having been obsessed with enriching himself during his stint as guru, using his position as the head of RSSB to put hundreds of millions of dollars into the pockets of himself and his family.

At least the Catholic church did something, albeit not enough, about the child abuse scandal. So far there's no sign Radha Soami Satsang Beas is doing anything about the guru's financial fraud scandal. Sad.

Regularly I get emails from people who thank me for informing them about the financial scandal the RSSB guru is deeply enmeshed in. This encourages me to keep on, as the saying goes, speaking truth to power.

So thanks for reading my blog posts. I respect your right to disagree with my conclusions about the guru. What's important is that all of us use our critical thinking and keep an open mind.

[JS]

Tajinder, rather than focussing on Brian’s comments about GSD, all one needs to concentrate on is the facts.

The Bloomberg article, which has triggered the (ongoing) SEBI investigation was extremely comprehensive. Crucially, [neither] GSD (nor Malvinder or Shivinder) have legally challenged the facts presented in that article. Why not sue Bloomberg if anything was inaccurate giving the damning nature of the accusations?

More recently, we have witnessed Malvinder’s formal EOW legal submission against GSD which has made many damning accusations and then the Delhi HC ordering GSD (his family, friends & their companies) to pay debts owed to Malvinder, to them, so they can reimburse Daichi. Not to mention their assets being frozen pending settlement.

These are all indisputable facts. It is irrelevant what you, I or Brian say about GSD.

What is of particular interest now is;
- Can/will GSD comply with the Delhi HC order?
- What happens if GSD is unable to repay?
- Will GSD be implicated in the ongoing SEBI investigations?

Time will tell...

[Note from Blogger Brian: I added a "neither" in the second paragraph because this seemed to be the intent of the commenter. JS, if I'm wrong about this, let me know, and I'll delete the "neither."]

[Q8i]

Lot of material to go through here.!!

JS just a guess to the questions you have put
1. yes, no choice!
2. 7 years jail for section 420 of IPC
3. Yes!

[Amarnath J Jha]

Let EOW and High court set the real case and investigate.I am firm nothing is wrong in RSSB.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Amaranth

The High Court has already met and made their judgment. Guilty.

Gurinder is responsible for of every single Rupee he took with interest, and as he is delinquent in payment, his assets are now frozen. So the high Court of India has determined and ordered.

[Rohit chugh]

He should be punished very badly...
So that people can see whom they were assuming god .

[Rajinder Sharma]

Why the disciples of RSSB are denying all the facts. May be it hurts them to accept that their Guru is a Fraudster and a Con Man and they are not able to digest that.

[Spence Tepper]

Team Gurinder is working very hard to be sure the High Court jails Malvinder for failure to repay.

Therefore Gurinder cannot and will not repay a single Rupee.

The Garnishee orders do not absolve Malvinder, and any effort to repay works against keeping him the scapegoat.

RSSB may sell more properties quietly, but that won't be to repay anyone.

It might be to buy more properties.

But they underestimate Daiichi who, thanks to Malvinder, now sees where the pot of gold is. So the story will take a while longer to unfold. But the results are inevitable.

[Dr Eugene Genetics]

If the truth is seen to have substance we believe it.
To some people truth manifests itself as belief.
We accept this and qualify it in analysis.

Even matter remains oddly unseen

[Spence Tepper]

My guess is that when Gurinder dies (under house arrest) he won't bequeth all the properties he acquired under the RSSB shell to some RSSB non - profit society (which doesn't actually exist as a real separate entity from the Guru's ownership of the RSSB assets right down to the chapatis) . They will go to Shivindar or one of his sons, or his wife, whomever has the best stage image at the Dera.
Every major Satsang center is just a property investment. With an adjoining home for the Guru and his family... With well - tended gardens. Hundreds of acres in nations across the globe with large and clean interior spaces that have never, ever opened their doors to refugees. Gurinder is channeling Joel Osteen.He makes Osteen look small time.

[Dungeness]

Gurinder is responsible for of every single Rupee he took with interest, and as he is delinquent in payment, his assets are now frozen. So the high Court of India has determined and ordered.
...
It appears that all the Modland Wears, Best and Fern diversions to Gurindar were a collaboration of Shivinder at Fortis and Pankaj's teams at those shell companies.

DISCLAIMER:
I do solemnly swear I am not now nor have I ever been a member of 'Team
Gurinder' *
...
...
* hand over heart and on a stack of non-bibles

Yes, Gurinder, whatever his degree of entanglement in the fraud, is responsible,
along with family, for repayment of illegal loans. I agree wholeheartedly. Case
closed.

Team Gurinder is working very hard to be sure the High Court jails Malvinder for failure to repay.
Therefore Gurinder cannot and will not repay a single Rupee.

The Garnishee orders do not absolve Malvinder, and any effort to repay works against keeping him the scapegoat. RSSB may sell more properties quietly, but that won't be to repay anyone.
It might be to buy more properties.

I won't call this a conspiracy theory but what is its foundation? Wouldn't it
be at least a bit more measured and dispassionate to see what unfolds in
court? This is hardly the stance of a blind believer or an apologist.

It's certainly intriguing to speculate who'll do the "perp walk", who jets off
into the sunset... will there be flippers, guilty bystanders, or weaklings that
emerge? Maybe even a blind loyalist or two who stay on that hill with Col.
Custer till their last breath.

Who's the villain? In Little Bighorn it certainly wasn't Sioux/Cheyenne tribes
and it really wasn't Custer either. They were just pawns in a bigger drama.
Our CofC combatants are in the same fix. We wanna win... to be in control.
All we can really do is try to be patient and stumble around looking for the
light.

[j]

It might be premature to alert the press, but I'm thinking now that their may be enough here for the Press Democrat, the SF Chronicle and the SF Examiner to possibly do a story on RSSB Petaluma. And do it hopefully before Gurinder's visit in July. Those who are interested could email the editor of these papers, with a link to this site. A pithy press release that briefly and clearly summarizes the issue would probably help.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/
https://www.sfexaminer.com/
https://www.pressdemocrat.com/

Newspapers are hungry for stories, and I've found from personal experience that even a little newspaper sometimes has more power than City Hall. The SF area papers just might just publish a piece on "the guru of Petaluma owes 150M and won't pay it back."

What would likely make a bigger impact would be if a demonstration was held outside SOOS Petaluma, and the media covered that protest.

[manjit]

Spence: "My guess is that when Gurinder dies (under house arrest)...."

Jesus Christ......

[Amar]

J, that would really suck for the senior sevadars, lol. That would be something they would have hissy fits trying to manage, and keep from the media.

I'm sure that just posting this, is causing them concern. As we all know, RSSB doesn't like the spot light. I can imagine them having a special meeting over this in the coming weekend.

[Deepika]

I don't know why these people are creating such a big issue.... It's so simple that Malvinder used to give money as Sewa(charity) to RSSB trust and all the money of charity is used for Dera development and now when he is not able to return that money he REQUESTS Babaji for help!!!
Now there are people who are just trying to defame Babaji
I wanna ask is there any proof that the money given to RSSB trust is used by Babaji's family????
How can you people surely say that?

[Jesse]

Manjit what's shocking about that dying under house arrest statement?

We need to take this speculation to the most extreme possibilities. No other reason exists to discuss these things unless we're going all the way.

The entire Dhillon family on house arrest, radha soami riots in delhi. It's all feasible. I think there's even a possible Hollywood ending that includes Gurinder getting a fake passport, shaving and skipping the country to retire with a harem of barely legal women in the Philippines before converting to Islam.

[Jesse]

I don't know why this didn't come to mind earlier, but I just thought of who I actually feel deserves sympathy if Gurindergate goes as far as riots and house arrests necessitating a total restructuring of the brand.

It's not the people whose religious feelings were hurt or those who won't know what to do if the guru is only available for YouTube livestream satsangs. It's not shareholders or family members who lose face from scandals. It certainly isn't the involved members of the billionaire family themselves.

The people who could really be put in a hard spot are the "sevadars" who work at dera that most westerners don't know actually get a salary. I don't know if it's the good nature of satsangis, the grace of babaji, or the condition of the local labor pool, but there are kitchen workers, cleaners etc from nearby towns who earn enough to live and are probably treated better at dera than they would be elsewhere.

Anything bad happening to Gurinder puts them at risk of unemployment and other struggles and that's something people should care about a lot more than whether or not their guru stole hundreds of millions of dollars or simply borrowed it with no intention of paying it back.

[One Initiated]

Yeah, we are all in the same boat.
You, whosoever you are, going to die,
whether under house arrest or under mental illness.

[Meditator]

Amid clouds of uncertainty for Baba jee. i wish to quote in verbatim from one of reply letters of Hajur Baba Sawan singh to one of His advanced disciples who stated "he is helpless, without Guru's guiding hand , it is not possible fot him to follow this path" to which He replied, in verbatim, " when you go into the inner subtle regions then you will see that what great potential Guru holds, which powers are under His command and how He helps out satsangis. "

Its a great grand paradox we are witnessing now with the Guru of same lineage and valour in manipulation business on the ooutside. as. claimed while. same He. Is Ominipotent, omniscient ... and all sane and. backbone of His belowed ssngat .inside of us or in the higher worlds for us all who have been initiated, I henceforth believe.

In one of satsangs Baba Charan Singh exclaimed in His llast years. " Don't ever be misunderstood this that the earlier Mahatamas. had happened to be the only. Almighty and not now. They were Almighty earlier, they are and they will be..., "

Food for thought...

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated and Meditator

One, you wrote...
"Yeah, we are all in the same boat.
You, whosoever you are, going to die,"

Let's die having done what we can to pay our debts.

And when we turn to our Master for help, in all humility, because circumstances, generally from our own making, are now beyond our ability to manage, it is from the same desire not to burden others.

The story of Gurinder is the same as each of us. These are his actions.bearing fruit. And he has access to the same resources you and I have to help him. They are all here.

The Almighty can be found in the sincere devotees, and indeed nearly everywhere. The Lord is not stingy. He /She exists in every cell. There are Saints in the audience, often in the back, who have been watching out for him and ready to help. And he has all the resources of the creation within. And so many good neighbors ready to help.

It's just a matter of the first step : accepting full responsibility, openly, with contrition, just like you and I. Begging for the barriers to be lifted between us and the Lord.

If anyone thinks they or anyone are above that, they have lost the whole point of Sant Mat.

The true Master knows this most of all and is the humblest of all. They've mastered that much.

[Spence Tepper]

Malvinder is the loving disciple of Baba Ji. Gurinder carries the burden of all Malvinder's debts.

[Mike England]

J
You’re onto something here with bringing this to the media in SF.
How about a song:
The Guru from Petaluma

To the tune of Girl from Ipanema

[Spence Tepper]

Dear One Initiated and Mediator
Who says, in love and awe, "I am nothing. I shall be the dust at your feet"?

Is that the disciple or the Master?

This is the real problem with religion. And the fallacy of RSSB.

Sant Mat theology states the disciple is supposed to subordinate themselves to their Master. This is a false teaching.

A true Sat Guru sees the Lord in everyone and bows to the ground to serve their disciples. They are submission personified. They are humility perfected. They grind themselves into dust and lay before us. They make themselves pavement, invisible, seemingly powerless, to make our walk easier. Because they are in love with their children.

The truth is the opposite of what you learned from Sant Mat.
But any loving parent can teach you this.

The Lord Himself is the dust at our feet.
He serves in silence 24/7.

Who dare presume any special privileges when the wisdom, power and care of this entire creation serves us in silent submission far beyond our capacity to appreciate?

To claim any guru deserves special privileges, and for any guru to accept a life of privilege is no Sat Guru.

We are told that there are so many false Guru's, but certainly not ours. Well, look at the pride and arrogance in that.

The ultimate expression of Ahimsa, of submissive to the divine has zero worldly authority or privilege. Every drop of blood is in service to humanity.

Let me make this plain. Every teacher, who accepts even that much formal authority competes with God. They are false to that extent.

But some people can only learn from authority, so there is always a market.

[megha khullar]

You have been assigned a special and important sewa by Babaji. And he is simply blessing you and paying off you debt by appointing you best stopper. You are just playing role in keeping those who are not marked souls away from the Perfect Master. The Masters say everything is predestined, and has a divine purpose :

“SLANDER AS DOORKEEPER..SHOOS THE FLIES AWAY”

Sawan Singh Ji: "Whenever the Supreme Father appears in the form of man, He creates circumstances for His own slander and calumny to keep the people away from Him who would otherwise crowd around Him in large numbers. Hazur Radhsoami Dayal said, 'I have appointed slander as doorkeeper." ("With The Three Masters" by Rai Sahib Munshi Ram, His Secretary).

As Ishwarji says, a Perfect Living Master comes to take Home His "marked" souls, who are "pulled" despite doubts; and others will turn away. As Bulleh Shah said :"'Sometimes you have to shoo the flies away from the honey.'

Keep going your karmic debts are being paid off. Hats off to Master!!!!!!!!

[Lata]

One issue and so much dirt is flung on the Guru without any proof.How will we traverse the huge difficulties life bestows on us.Or is it that because the Guru is a magnificent personality our insults have to match that magnificence?These are all tests of faith.Don't show your absurd worldly intelligence in trying to understand what our petty brains cannot perceive. Look at it as an exam given to you and see how you come out at the end.It is not Babaji's problem, it is ours.Always in such a hurry to judge.People who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others.And lastly if you were in this situation you would be begging Babaji for help.Do you silly cubs not know that It happens because He wills it and He can resolve it if and when He wishes?Lata

[Meditator]

Mr Spencer,

Many of us are weighing His spiritual potential against His ordinariness in handling worldly dealings.

It was only meant to emphasise His disconnect as 'One in all' that He enjoys from 'His oneself' over here thats in trouble. I agree that we must be helpful to Him financially. Regards.

[One Initiated]

There is no limit of how much more idiotic we can behave.
We are proving ourselves more stupid with every new comment and post.

We better count or own remaining breaths than the Satguru's.

The best thing we can do today is go back to our room,
have a nice sleep, wake up at 3 AM and spend a good quality 3 hours in HIS lovely audible bliss.

[Amar]

Everyone's gonna die one die. That's the only guarantee. We don't need a mystic to tell anyone that.

Live a good, honest, happy life. Be active and engaged with an open mind, and the world becomes a fascinating place to explore. Those that feel they are better than the rest or entitled to special treatment because of their job title or seva position, even the guru, are not acting in good faith with their own Self.

When there are "senior" sevadars visiting an RSSB site, they are put up in the "guest" quarters, given special lunches and dinners and special treatment. If all sevadars are equal, why the special treatment? If a sevadar travels from across the country, he doesn't get a special breakfast, or lunch, he eats with the rest of the sevadars at the common eating location. These others don't.

If everyone is equal, then why special parking, special eating, special lodging? This permeates all the locations RSSB is located. It starts with the guru getting specially built, sound proof houses on the sites, with special meals, and driven in fancy cars. Only those trusted to be in the near vicinity are allowed. So this trickles down to the board members, Reps and Chairman of the board across North America.

The entire sangat sees this, but these "higher ups" are oblivious to the perception this creates. This is that RSSB caste system I mentioned before.

[Q8i]

i read 27000 word comment by Tara and quite an eye opener that is. one thing i don't get is the organ donation drive being promoted. whose idea was it and when did it start? it is surely not GSD's idea.

[Jesse]

Amar, equality does not and cannot exist anywhere, especially not in massive organizations with milions of members that require huge infrastructure projects and whatever else they do. Maybe in a group of 5 people you could approximate something simulating equality, but it'd be forced and all 5 members would have to constantly work at that goal at the expense of human normalcy. I've been to anarchist collectives like that and it's a nightmare world of self-induced mental health issues.

I would never expect RSSB to try enforcing any kind of equalitarian uptopia, but they should instead stop selling the fantasy. They should, like all normal religions, have a hierarchy. Hierarchy is natural and good when it's not abused.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated
You wrote
"The best thing we can do today is go back to our room,
have a nice sleep, wake up at 3 AM and spend a good quality 3 hours in HIS lovely audible bliss."

I was doing just that, (I'm on East coast time but started at midnight)... And Maharaji stopped me at about 2:30 am and said" I need you to write this for me on Brian Ji's blog... Get up now!"

Hence the above.

If not for His prompting I wouldn't be here. Brian Ji has this Seva down perfectly.

BTW When I write" Baba Ji pay your bills " what Baba Ji means is you all. That's each of us. If He has to do it, no one gets a free ride.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Megha Khullar

You wrote
"You are just playing role in keeping those who are not marked souls away from the Perfect Master."

No Megha, Radiant Baba Ji says this is all specifically for the Sangat, no one else. His theft and all that is for the Sangat... To wipe out the cancer of arrogance. There is no other way.

I think there are lots of other ways. I can't imagine becoming a thief and undergoing court actions is a good model for anyone. It pisses me off, and actually frightens me that He's going there. But He was there all along.

But Baba Ji works in His own way. He's decided to become the bad example so nobody thinks they are better than anyone else.

I wish there was another way, too.

[Amar]

Hi Jesse, I get what you're saying. If that were the case, then no prob. But they say they don't discriminate, but they do.

So like you said, better to just have the hierarchy , than be hypocritical.

These are just observations, but hopefully those reading will try to understand that their actions really do send a different message.

Rant over!

[Jesse]

You're jumping the shark now Spence.

We can all start referencing inner beings. There's an entire section of YouTube dedicated to modern day prophets and all the messages they receive from Yaweh or Jesus in their prayers. There's no reason to take them any more or less serious than you or me or anyone else with imaginary friends.

And just as their are a million people claiming to receive contradictory telepathic messages from Jesus, i assume there are a large number who think they're speaking to baba jis radiant blob who'd disagree with you.

If you're developing a messiah complex, don't try to be a prophet. That market is far too saturated. You'll need to start your own cult. More like Harold Klemp or that Supreme Master Vietnamese lady who used to be super hot.

[Spence Tepper]

BTW Megha,
Maharaji says "Radha Soami!"

And also that Brian Ji's Seva is for all Satsangis. To comfort those in pain, and drag the rest out of their muddy arrogance to a point of personal truth.

I'm not sure how Brian Ji does it. But I'm getting it... A little at a time.

[Georgy Porgy]

Sound like dodgy contrived letters from a bloke trying to cover his own ass after poor mismanagement.

only thing this guru is guilty of is being too nice to his family. I would’ve kicked most of these fools into the long grass long time ago. Sounds like guru was out of action with throat cancer and these crap amateur managers have stuffed the whole kit and kaboodle up, carrying out crap deals in his absence.

Sounds to me like this website of bitter exes has dissolved their former marriages to Rssb and is now hellbent on crucifying the guru for a set of corporate deals which he has zero to do with. One wonders how the exes would react under similar circumstance. If life is fair and karma exists, they will get to find out. But of course they don’t believe in all that as atheists - hope you right.

I do believe in it, call it karma or what you will, but life gonna funny way of kicking you square in the nuts when you need it most.

[Amar]

To everyone who has opinions on this, it's great that we can all communicate on a platform Brian has provided. We don't all agree on each other's perspectives, which is okay. Let's just remember to be open to all possibilities if we can.

Here's what I've been thinking on today, and it helped bring back into focus why I feel the way I do.

I do feel betrayed on the one hand. I feel taken aback at the comments here also, because I used to think the same way. Very humbling to view my own arrogance and pride in being included as one of the chosen ones.

So, it's not the fraud, the court orders, the filings by Malvinder on the scale of the money distributed apparently without his knowledge, or the complete silence from GSD. It's that he is involved in it. Doesn't matter how much complicity/money involved: it's the fact that he's involved in it.

It looks like it's become an obsession to build properties and purchase land for the sake of putting up buildings, for the purpose of doing seva. Gives him an excuse to get out of India and travel. Why not build one large complex in each continent and be done with it? Why have so many?

It's like an addiction to being a massive landholder. But that's just my take on it. The inaccessibility, the arrogance, the expectation of having lavish accommodations not only in renovating his own place at the Dera (which only a handful of people can actually go into, and is apparently really over the top), but at all the other locations around the world. While most of the sangat sleep on the ground or in the large metal sheds at the Dera, while he and his good friends sleep in air conditioned upscale bungalows, eat separately, and have everything done for them. Sevadars are sevadars, regardless of their position. Right?

There's a saying that goes,"Sometimes you get too big for your own britches." Maybe RSSB has gotten too big for it's intended task.

[Georgy Porgy]

Oh I see Spence still has his snout lodged up baba brian’s butthole.

It’s not a pleasant sight to witness a grown man behave like a shepherd - are you a man or a mouse Spence ?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
You asked
"Oh I see Spence still has his snout lodged up baba brian’s butthole."

That's impossible Georgy. Baba Ji says that you could see more of you pulled your entire head out of his ass please.

[Amar]

I think Georgy has a butt fetish. No offence, man, but cool it with the butt references, creeping me out!

[Jesse]

Amar, in my personal opinion RS was too big in Soami Jis era. It's a resort business at this point.

If there is any possibility of gaining benefit from a guru, I suspect there needs to be a personal human relationship. Watching a man on a stage recite a bunch of bullet points from the sects creed is just a performance. Entertainment for desperate and broken hearted people who are susceptible to charismatic charm.

Gurinder Singh is no different to me or you than is Tony Robinson, Keith Ranier or Lady Gaga. Jails are full of gurus who never became powerful enough to insulate themselves from legal pressures.

[Jesse]

"Sounds to me like this website of bitter exes has dissolved their former marriages to Rssb and is now hellbent on crucifying the guru for a set of corporate deals which he has zero to do with."

I love trolls, but I hate lies. You know damn well that Gurinder is involved, Georgy, and you need to adjust your artificial snark to conform to that reality.

As for bitter exes, I don't see it. Not including myself, it seems most people are actually pretty relaxed about it all.

[Jen]

Spence your comments are becoming more and more like a gospel preacher feverishly searching to find fault to bring down the current Master at RSSB. Satsangis don't talk like this...

Spence says: "Who says, in love and awe, "I am nothing. I shall be the dust at your feet"?

Also, "The Lord Himself is the dust at our feet. 
He serves in silence 24/7."

This is from the Christian Standard Bible: "Kings will be your guardians and their queens your nursing mothers. They will bow down to you with their faces to the ground and lick the dust at your feet."

Spence, when are you going to confess that you are a Christian and have never been a satsangi?

You also say "And Maharaji stopped me at about 2:30 am and said" I need you to write this for me on Brian Ji's blog... Get up now!"

"I think there are lots of other ways. I can't imagine becoming a thief and undergoing court actions is a good model for anyone. It pisses me off, and actually frightens me that He's going there. But He was there all along.
But Baba Ji works in His own way. He's decided to become the bad example so nobody thinks they are better than anyone else."

More nonsense. I don't believe a word you say. You've lost the plot.

[Um]

Many years ago football was just that … football. A game of running after an ball that gave pleasure to the players, was made possible by small contributies of the players to cover the costs directly related to the game itself. Ball, shirts, shoes etc.

Over time the game changed and became more of an means to an end then the end. These days the once so simple game is governed by sportive multinational organizations like FIFA and surrounded by costly glamour and glitter … think of the worldcup in Qatar, the huge stadions etc etc.

In older days the players and all others made the game possible by their own contribution.
These day so many people related to football have huge incomes, the players, the organizers etc etc. and don't be surprised with that growth comes the power and with the power whatever human vice you can think of.

There is no escape from it not even for a godman.

[Sonya]

In Hong Kong earlier this month GSD emphasized repeatedly during that satsang he gave that one should live a simple life.

I’m just restating what he said... curious to hear anyone’s thoughts on that.

[Dungeness]

Radiant Baba Ji says this is all specifically for the Sangat, no one else. His theft and all that is for the Sangat... To wipe out the cancer of arrogance. There is no other way.

I think there are lots of other ways. I can't imagine becoming a thief and undergoing court actions is a good model for anyone. It pisses me off, and actually frightens me that He's going there. But He was there all along.

But Baba Ji works in His own way. He's decided to become the bad example so nobody thinks they are better than anyone else.

No disrespect intended but I would encourage distrust of every word of
this narrative... other than perhaps the paragraph with the commenter's
own opinions: "I think... pisses me off... frightens me...".

Why? Not because it couldn't be true but because it's the second-hand
narration of an alleged experience within his consciousness. It's not your
own consciousness. That makes It's unverifiable unless you have a direct
personal relationship with GIHF and can confirm it directly. Accepting it
at face value is blind belief.

Perhaps, you rely on the facts reported in the news instead. That's better
but don't be tempted to use unverifiable accounts to bolster the case you've
built in your mind... no matter who the author is or how soaring the spiritual
rhetoric is. That becomes the dynamic of a cult.

This is what every recognized mystic urges. Be cautious. Accept every
spiritual truth only after confirming it experientially. Deception is there
until you control and transcend the mind. Or, as every street-wise TV
sage tells rookies: "Trust no one".

[Vijay]

Amar you have fallen in the well and you ask the person taking you out why are you wearing that? Why is your hand so big? Why did you drive here in your car? Why didn’t you walk?

Get yourself out of the well first, then you will understand everything.

[Jesse]

Sonya, I guess it's possible to already have and continue to chase massive amounts of wealth and also live "simply" but only if we stretch the generally agreed upon meaning of what simple living is.

Gurinder lives an extremely complicated life by probably all definitions. He's not comparable in lifestyle to any of the "saints" his books use as examples to advertise the sect.

Classic definition of do as I say not as I do.

[Jesse]

Dungeness talks about distrusting everything then dumps this massive deuce on all our heads "This is what every recognized mystic urges. Be cautious. "

Wtf is a "recognized mystic" other than "the people my retard gurus sect named in books?"

[Amar]

Vijay, I dont think you know what you're talking about. I know that story, it's used in satsangs all the time. I'm not in the well. I'm finally outside of it. I climbed out of the darkness of the dogma and finally feel alive and open to finding what is within myself.

You are the one who is trying to put the fire out at someone else's house when yours is also on fire.

It's not SOS, Save Our Souls. It's SYS, Save Your Soul - if you can call it that. Direct your energy and love inward, to the Self. Giving outwards to someone else drains you. But I guess you don't see it like that. That's your choice, not mine. Agree to disagree.

[Dungeness]

Wtf is a "recognized mystic" other than "the people my retard gurus sect named in books?"

One canonized in the "Mystic Hall of Fame" naturally :) Great Master, Jagat Singh,
Maharaji, Baba Ji*, the list goes on and on. Their warnings about the mind, its
monkey-nature, its deceptions, and the need for experiential proof are all there.
No, I refuse to wade in and cite quotations from their works.

Besides, I suspect most blog readers --even the dumb shits-- know "them guru
types" were con men, sexual deviants, lazy louts who can't be trusted anyway.
To a man/woman, all they put out was a buncha horseshit scripture. Don't waste
precious breaths with that crap.

Put your faith in scientific theory, established religion, various popular commentators,
even in Blogger Ji's and their posses. Ya won't be disappointed.

* suspected of spiritual steroid use so may be voted out of Sach Khand

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
I am indeed A Satsangi. Initiated by Dr. DeVries at his home in Pasadena in July 1980. My letter arrived on the day Mt. St. Helen's erupted.

But why would you believe anyone, Jen?

Is A Satsangi not allowed to grow and develop?

Or move in any direction? Could A Satsangi possibly be insane? If you have seen what I see it would be hard to retain your sanity for long.

I could question whether you are really a woman, or really Georgy or Anon... The same sort of things that you have done.

Of course we have been lots of people, worn lots of clothes, lots of different views, done lots of noble and horrifying things... So which Spence are your referring to? No. 876,453 or no. 975,45?

And which Jen am I speaking with? No. 957,25, or no. 865,890?

When you see them all overlapping, like translucent coats on an infinite rack in the bargain basement of a galactic department store, then specific body, mind types become nearly arbitrary.

You and I are identical almost down to the last gene.

You know very well that Maharaji loved the Bible very much, and understood it clearly, as a Satsangi.

So why waste your time trying to second guess anyone else?

Put forth your own ideas about truth as best you can.

This place isn't about personal attributes but about truth, objective truth, and subjective truth.

Don't shout at what you believe is the darkness, light a candle Jen! You are at your best there.

And no, I do not believe true Saints hold any formal titles of authority, including Guru or Master. That is what Maharaji has shown me. It's a show for arrogant people who look down upon others who are different and refuse to learn from each other.

But for those there would be no gurus and then you would see that there are realized souls in a number of places, brothers and sisters to lean on and learn from happy to keep you company.

But the arrogance has to go.

[Vijay]

Amar I didn’t mean your in the well. We are all in the well whether you believe it or not. I’m in the same well as you. And yes my house is burning but I’m not trying to put a fire out in your house. Im working to do that in mine.
I was merely trying to make an analogy of your questions the way I see it. You seem to be very bitter and angry. Just some advise bro no need to get so agitated. I don’t think you received a flyer in your house saying “please join RSSB we need you”. You chose it and now you choose something else.Simple.

Ishwar Puri would say that every step of seeking is helpful on the road to discovery. Nothing is wasted. So this step of RSSB also has a reason and is helpful to get to your destination. We all have different paths. There is absolutely no need to diss or hurt anyone and their beliefs. It didn’t work for you....leave it at that. With regards to BBJ he has his reasons let him do his Seva, why do you need to be so angry I’m sure if you look back you have learned a lot good and bad from the path. Life is a journey.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
If you don't have to act, you don't have to draw any conclusions at all.

You can remain beautifully uncommitted, and uninvolved.

Even the eyes and ears can deceive.

But I do think we should know right from wrong and be able to act.

I can write what I do about my inner experiences precisely because you won't believe it. No one will. No one should.

The only ones who might believe it is credible, but who can't know it is true, are others who have a similar inner experience.

And there are others who may believe it to be metaphorical, a symbolic experience for a moral truth they do believe.

But everyone here should rational. You might be right. I might be crazy. But a lunatic might just be what you're looking for. You took initiation didn't you?

I'm probably the most benign crazy person connected to Sant Mat, the Guru being the most dangerous.

But if you won't believe the basic truth that stealing money is wrong, of course you're not going to believe my fireside chats with Maharaji and Baba Ji.

I tell you what. It's more important to learn to recognize theft and harm.

And to commit to doing what is right, and acknowledging what is wrong.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Vijay
You asked Amar
"why do you need to be so angry"

I can't find a single angry word in Amar's comments.
He is extremely level headed, Vijay.

Let me follow your lead...
"Vijay, you need to realize you have fallen into a pit and you shouldn't criticize those trying to help you out."

If it wasn't angry when you said it, it's not angry when anyone else does.

We're all trying to help each other, right?

So no need to attribute anger.. Except to Georgy. He seems pretty grumpy at times. Like my Grandpa when I was little and" accidentally" stepped in front of the TV just as the quarterback was making the touchdown.

Yah, gramps had a moment there. A Georgy.

[One Initiated]

Calling others an arrogant, isn't an arrogance?

How and when would a soft hearted person, drowned in love,
can ever subject someone as an arrogant ?

And if we do, then it means the love, the care and the compassion,
what we vouch for others to have, is totally missing in ourselves.

Actually if we see from the other perspective, aren't we all are lovers?
Everyone is loving something.

[Jen]

Spence you ask "Is A Satsangi not allowed to grow and develop?"

Do you really think you are growing and developing? How can you not see that attacking and spending so much time looking for fault and gossiping about the guru is wrong?

Why are you asking if a satsangi could possibly be insane? This is crazy talk.

Of course many of us have changed over the years from being a devoted satsangi, including myself, but why are you so enthusiastic to spend time looking for anything you can find in the news to put Gurinder down. Why do you have to constantly criticise Gurinder? Why have you not moved on?

"But the arrogance has to go." I agree. Can you see your own arrogance?

I could not find anything about the bible in my Sant Mat books but if you still see yourself in a good light even with all the gossiping, this is from Maharaj Charan Singh, "Die to Live":

"That atmosphere which you're building by leading a noble home life induces you to meditate. Otherwise you won't feel like attending to meditation if you're always gossiping and quarrelling with one another. But if the atmosphere is good, naturally you're induced towards meditation and that meditation naturally helps us in every way."

[Jesse]

What's wrong with anger? In some company if you react meekly to anger they ask "why are you so weak?" But what's wrong with meekness and/or weakness?

I can't talk because I often complain about arrogance which isn't right or wrong either. These are all just human emotions which undoubtedly serve an evolutionary purpose and at least at certain times aid in our survival.

Attributing any binary good/bad quality to them or expecting only one from people is just part of the game of civilization which we can see rapidly crumbling before our eyes on a global scale. You should probably acclimate to more intense expressions actually because disney days are pretty much done.

Any attempt to limit human expressions only to the ones that you're comfortable with is going to fail.

[Dungeness]

I do not believe true Saints hold any formal titles of authority, including Guru or Master. That is what Maharaji has shown me. It's a show for arrogant people who look down upon others who are different and refuse to learn from each other.

But for those there would be no gurus and then you would see that there are realized souls in a number of places, brothers and sisters to lean on and learn from happy to keep you company.

Without question, true masters disavow titles and declare themselves not
to be gurus... only sevadars of their own guru. So that's it... all the phony
baloney Guru titles were just for the sake of those arrogant low-life's in the
flock?

Hm, I thought the RSSB centers, books, secretaries, and especially the
anointed Guru himself were there to provide a little direction and
clarity for seekers... initiates too.

But ya say seekers and old-hands can just ferret out the "realized" souls
among "brothers and sisters" ? All by their lonesome? Sounds good...
nothing like a good DIY system to get a worthy one.

Trouble is there are so many ready to declare themselves "realized"
souls. Who vets them? What's a poor unenlightened newbie to do?
How's he/she gonna know them? Sixth sense? By their soaring spiritual
rhetoric? Via the grapevine? Up-votes? Street-cred?

Perhaps, you'll get lucky? Or divine coincidence will lead you to the
"One". Yes, that could happen. After all, it might be an improvement
over the current system.

That reminds me. Ya know, they say the current Guru's gonna wind
up "under house arrest" till he croaks. Might as well hang loose till
a "Real Guru" applies for the job.

Dammit though... you just can't get good help these days.

[Amar]

Spencer, I had one of those TV moments as well...

Vijay, there is absolutely no anger. What might come thru is frustration in the way you present your thoughts. As I mentioned in another post, I see myself the way you express yourself. And that pisses me off.

So no offence to you, it's not intended to come across like that. You're entitled to your belief system. I just don't believe it with all my heart anymore. If you still believe in it, good for you. Happy meditation!

This is a great way to discuss this stuff. Bring some personal views which we can talk about rationally, things we like, things which we have questions about. Not everything is perfect, there are challenges and doubts. That's only natural.

But to just spew out stuff without having first hand knowledge or stuff we pretend to know is a non starter for me.

Cheers!

[Dungeness]

But I do think we should know right from wrong and be able to act.

But everyone here should rational. You might be right. I might be crazy.
But a lunatic might just be what you're looking for. You took initiation
didn't you?

I try very hard to understand the wisdom of lunacy... particularly those
I'm convinced are rational lunatics.

I'm probably the most benign crazy person connected to Sant Mat, the Guru
being the most dangerous.

Ah good to hear. I can stop worrying so much about "crazies" taking over.

But if you won't believe the basic truth that stealing money is wrong,
of course you're not going to believe my fireside chats with Maharaji
and Baba Ji.

I'd like to kibitz one of those chats. Maybe I could learn to embrace
lunacy more fully.

[Georgy Porgy]

Spence

“If you have seen what I see it would be hard to retain your sanity for long.”

I knew it from the start. This is an egocentric maniac conspiracy theorist and a disaster waiting to happen. Come on ‘oh great one’, please, oh pretty please - enlighten us on what you have seen, you know you want to - it’s just a matter of time. Be brave and true to yourself , speak openly, come on tell us what you’ve seen.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"I could not find anything about the bible in my Sant Mat books"

Maharaji spoke and wrote extensively about the teachings of the Masters to be found in the Bible, especially those of 'Master Jesus' as Maharaji referred to Christ.

Master wrote two books about Jesus Christ: 'Light on Saint John' and 'Light on Saint Matthew' . When Master came to America on His first visit His teachings, including answers to questions, all referenced Jesus. You can read those in the book 'The Master Answers' .

Another book was dedicated to exploring the teachings of Sant Mat to be found in the First Testament and within the teachings of Judaism, 'The Holy Name-Mysticism in Judaism' by Miriam Caravelle.

Several major works on the mystic teachings of Jesus and ancient Judaism published by RSSB and written by biblical scholar John Davidson are 'The Divine Romance' , 'The Gospel of Jesus' , 'The Odes of Solomon' , 'The Prodigal Son' , and 'The Song of Songs' . Another earlier publication by RSSB while Maharaji was at the helm written by Joseph Leeming about the mystic teachings throughout the holy Bible is 'Yoga and The Bible'.

Jen, who initiated you and when?

In Spiritual Perspectives you can find several references. He told one initiate "Sister, we are all following Christ."

Jen, who initiated you and when?

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"Trouble is there are so many ready to declare themselves "realized" souls. Who vets them? What's a poor unenlightened newbie to do? How's he/she gonna know them? Sixth sense? By their soaring spiritualrhetoric? Via the grapevine? Up-votes? Street-cred?"

You think a formal organization with buildings, titles and a publishing house is your guarantee?

Then that's what you need.

But it's not in your hands, Dungeness.

It never was. You don't have to worry about it and never did.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated and Jen

Arrogance, to my eyes, is when people steal over a billion dollars, ignore the consequences, ignore the requests for repayment, and the courts orders, use the money living lavishly and buying up property, and then have their friends and 'lovers' care nothing for the victims of that fraud, including the health system disabled by their fraud.

Yes that's arrogance, and those 'lovers' are enabling great harm to innocent people, including sick and indigent patients.

Nice words, hiding criminals as others suffer.

I've become, with Brian Ji's help, a more honest lover of Truth.

Because the rock has been lifted to reveal those maggots who call themselves lovers, and the diseases they created.

Baba Ji has his own responsibility. But if anyone created that Master Thief, it was an arrogance that was encouraged by all those leeches who called themselves 'lovers'.

They loved themselves. And not their true selves. They don't love the Master and they don't love Truth.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Georgy
You asked
"please - enlighten us on what you have seen, you know you want to - it’s just a matter of time. Be brave and true to yourself , speak openly, come on tell us what you’ve seen."

But the rest of my comment contained much of the answer. Take a cleansing breath and try reading the whole thing this time, Then you will find the answer to your own question! It was within you all the time, Georgy! ;}

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You wrote
"I could not find anything about the bible in my Sant Mat books"

Maharaji wrote two books on the subject, 'Light on Saint Matthew' and 'Light on Saint John' and he spoke extensively about the mystic truths he found in the Holy Bible. He referred to Jesus as "Master Jesus" and told one initiate "Sister we are all following Christ." Indeed He sent His children to Catholic school.

In a third book, 'The Master Answers' Maharaji's first visit to America includes his answers to American audiences. Almost all of his references to spiritual literature are to the mystic teachings of Jesus Christ.

In nearly every book Maharaji cites mystic teachings from the Holy Bible, including 'Die to Live'.

If you will please refer to the reference section of that book you had in your hands, 'Die To Live' will see 69 references Maharaji makes in his answers to the Book of John, the Book of Matthew, 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, the Book of Psalms, the Book of Proverbs, the Book of Revelation, the Book of Isaiah, the Book of Zechariah, and the Book of Exodus. The entire first chapter, which is not answers to questions but an overview of the teachings, Maharaji makes extensive references to the Holy Bible. From chapter one, page 23 Maharaji quotes....

"And when the disciple asked Jesus how to find the way back to the Lord, Jesus replied :

I am the way, the truth, and the b life : no man cometh n unto the Father, but by me."

Indeed the title of 'Die To Live' is Maharaji's reference to St. Paul, who wrote about leaving the body to be with Christ every day, and then returning to the body,

" 31 I die daily, I protest by your glory, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord."
1 Corinthians 15: 31

"For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

"6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
2 Corinthians 5:1-9

Jen, sometimes the help of a friend can be there to remind us to look again and see what is right there before us on the page, that we were not seeing.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi One Initiated
You asked
"Calling others an arrogant, isn't an arrogance?

How and when would a soft hearted person, drowned in love,
can ever subject someone as an arrogant ?"

A soft hearted person who witnessed the theft of a billion dollars from innocent preople, including the crippling of a health care system, and the harm to indigent and elderly patients would learn that love often means setting boundaries, and as Brian has so beautifully stated, speaking Truth to power.

If you understood that was your mom or child you would not simply be speaking Truth to power. You would be shouting it until you lost your voice.

[Dungeness]

You think a formal organization with buildings, titles and a publishing house is your guarantee?

Then that's what you need.

But it's not in your hands, Dungeness.

It never was. You don't have to worry about it and never did.

That's not the point at all. Of course GIHF could manifest to anyone,
lift his consciousness, and say "Today's your lucky day, chum, I've
just initiated you."

The anointed Guru, formal organization, centers, etc. provide seva,
a more ordered gradual unfolding of truth and less of a "polar shift"
in the enlightenment process. It's a prop designed for our minds,
naturally. A way to deal with the lunacy of an insane asylum.

Your happy, utopian scenario of " no gurus and then you would see
that there are realized souls in a number of places, brothers and sisters
to lean on and learn from happy to keep you company" is well, just
another vision of how it could be for the inmates.

Who's to say what's sane or optimum for those shuffling around the
nut house.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Dungeness
You wrote
"Who's to say what's sane or optimum for those shuffling around the
nut house."

You think the other inmates at the Dera asylum are any better?
Is the grass always greener on TV?

[Arjuna]

He ain't God as he didn't help me!! Spence I am out in town and very drunk!

Wish he would step down and let us move on.

[Brian Hines]

Arjuna, don't worry about being drunk. To me you're making perfect sense!

[Jen]

Spence you ask, "Jen, who initiated you and when?". It was such a long time ago, Charan initiate, over 50 years ago, I was in my early 20's. I really don't care anymore. I still stick to being a vegetarian, no alcohol or drugs, live a moral life etc, but don't even relate to satsang anymore. Said all this before and now am over it. I've never read those books you quote, probably because I have an aversion to Christianity, can't understand how people worship someone nailed to a cross, very much like victim energy that people get off on. You probably would love to crucify the current guru so its really up your street.

Spence you are full of it and I don't trust you or believe anything you say. You love being on this blog and enjoy the conflict and playing your game. Why the glee in wanting to bring the RSSB guru down? I don't understand, I've moved away from satsang and I don't have the bitterness and envy that the naysayers here on this blog have. Anyway, I won't answer anymore of your questions, you obviously don't even bother to remember anyway. Many times I have spoken about when I was initiated and by whom. All you have is pretence, outright lies and spite.

Spence you say: "Jen, sometimes the help of a friend can be there to remind us to look again and see what is right there before us on the page, that we were not seeing."

You are not my friend and I have no desire to read all the biblical crap that you are obviously into. Looks like you have been more of a Bible-basher than a satsangi.

You say: "Baba Ji has his own responsibility. But if anyone created that Master Thief, it was an arrogance that was encouraged by all those leeches who called themselves 'lovers'.
They loved themselves. And not their true selves. They don't love the Master and they don't love Truth."

You are so full of hatred Spence.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Jen
You know, you could approach this differently.
You could say, "OK, well if the Bible was mportant to Maharaji, then I guess I see the connection to your own familiarity with the Bible... It's not my cup of tea but I get it....

" If you think Baba Ji or other people stole that money out of arrogance, well that's your opinion... I simply don't agree."

But no. You had to go full flame setting.

I don't know you Jen, but you've written some beautiful things, and for that you have my affection.

And it is out of affection I beg Baba Ji to pay his bills and help His disciples Malvinder and Shivinder to do the same. He is responsible for both of them.

I can do no other. I can't be indifferent to my brothers or sisters.

But as to personal characterisations, Jen, we are all the same. You are my sister and Baba Ji, Amar, Georgy, Jessie, Anon, Dungeness and Brian Ji are all my brothers. We can all learn from each other.

[Dungeness]

You think the other inmates at the Dera asylum are any better?
Is the grass always greener on TV?

Not personally, no. I detest any org's and ritual. Officious RSSB
goons, oops I mean sevadars, grabbing my arm, telling me where
to sit... and my spirituality evaporates in a puff of rage.

But, I suspect most of the loonies don't wanna shuffle around the
asylum looking for GIHF. Gazing at the anointed "One" , even
sardined together in the prison yard, will do just fine... providing
he ain't indicted of course. Eventually ya just get used to those
high gray walls and forbidding towers.

At least some time in the yard beats hanging around the TV room...
wondering what Nurse Ratchet will do or if that big dumb oaf in the
corner is strong enough to get us the hell outta this Cucko's Nest.

[Spence Tepper]

Hi Arjuna...
I think we are in love with him, attached to him, so we can't move on unless he moves with us. That's why we're all here. Brian Ji is dragging us through the illusion step by step. But it's a horrible process, and you can see we are getting mad at each other along the way.

We are a living, modern version of the Canterbury Tales. Together we are on an epic journey, a pilgrimage. Along the way, in parts, each of us tells our story.

And as we arrive at key points of the journey we can be elated, and in turns crestfallen. Inspired and angered by each other, as each moves forward, Step by step on the journey together.

[Jesse]

Hey Jen, in the days when you got initiated was it by Charan directly or did you receive instructions from a representative?

And if you ever met Charan face to face, what'd you think of him?

I either read or heard from another satsangi that people weren't allowed to approach him. And in all the pictures of him he was with rich satsangis. Wasn't sure how accurate my assessment is.

[Amar]

Hi Jen. I think what chokes me about the whole thing is that GSD is involved in such an astronomical sum of money that probably everyone on this blog combined net worth over their entire lives wouldn't even come close to scratching the surface. It's a huge number. Why the money, why that much, why any of it?

For me it's just utter shock. If he continues on as guru's, gets off Scott free, goes to jail or house arrest, is besides the point. He will go through whatever he has to go through.

There should be no hatred or animosity towards him. What we all need to decide is if one still holds true to the teachings and if one can still follow him going forward. That's an individual choice and one that no one needs to explain to anyone. It's personal.

But let's be open about it and share experiences and perspectives.

[Jen]

Hi Jesse, I was initiated through a representative in Durban and my husband and I had a very brief interview with Charan when he visited Auckland. This was when we were living in New Zealand. He was giving interviews after satsang and it was quite private and personal but because I was very shy and nervous at that time I kept quiet and my husband spoke to him and I don't remember much of what was said and we certainly weren't rich satsangis.

Hi Amar, I agree with what you say "There should be no hatred or animosity towards him". I'm waiting for the end result of this financial scandal. Who knows what is going to happen?

[Fairy]

Hi Jesse,

I am not Jen, but I was initiated by the NZ representative 30 years ago in July. I went to India in the October/November of 1989 and was initiated with a small group of westerners along with a huge group of Indians, by Charan Singh.

Later during my 10 day stay I had a personal face to face encounter with Charan Singh. I asked him a silly question as I did not know what to ask, he was kind towards my stupidity and asked me where I was from and then said to meditate. What else could he say?

I thought he was a nice man, but I never felt the love for him like my satsangi friends did and do. In my heart I never believed in a Master, yet I did think the principles of the philosophy were good.

If you stick your thumbs in your ears and push your eyes with your fingers, of course anyone will hear bells ringing and see flashing lights. As for squatting, well of course you will go numb.

I still think one has to go beyond what the Gurus of Santmat say and understand the true inner meanings. Everyone comes to their own understanding in their ownn time given their own insights and experiences.

No good meditating 2.5 hours a day and then being a horrible person the rest of the time. Every second of one's life should be spent in complete awareness. A really difficult task.

My right ear screeches ALL the time. Not the Shabd. I think the Shabd is just a word that is completely and totally inadequate to describe its reality.

A funny thing, this is about karmic connections perhaps between all of us here and those drawn into Santmat.

When I first went on my OE in the 70s to London, I ended up flatting with an American satsangi. She took me to my first meeting. I told her it was too Catholic for me. After that, I kept meeting satsangis and vegetarians everywhere I went in my life. I knew deep down before I could progress in my spiritual evolution, I had to stop drinking alcohol, stop smoking and become a vegetarian. It took awhile but I did.

But I discovered Mahayana Tibetan Buddhism first. I preferred then, and do now the Buddhist teachings. But I still got initiated into Santmat. Personality connections I guess.

Although I believe I orchestrate my own life and destiny in the choices I make and no Master, Guru, Buddha or whoever is going to take responsibility for me or my actions, I just love His Holiness The Dalai Lama! I just love him, it brings tears to my eyes. I have looked him in the eye, but he does not know me and never will, but I love him anyway.

Now what a strange thing is that!

[Vijay]

Amar the Singh brothers inherited a company which sold for an astronomical amount of money. After they received it they along with BBJ invested in various business ventures.

[Jesse]

"There should be no hatred or animosity towards him."

I can't accept these prescriptions.

Hate is a valid emotion. Hate who you need to hate.

[Amar]

Vijay, your interpretation of invested in various business ventures leaves out the part of the money being siphoned out illegally. I'm not interested in debating this with you. GSD and his family have had a court order to repay the shit load of money to the court for payment back to Daichii and have their assets frozen. If you don't care about that and it still satisfies you to continue believing in GSD, then good for you.

I don't prescribe to that thought process. Good luck to you and happy meditating.

[Jesse]

Fairy,

Were you able to freely communicate with Charan or did you wait in line and get to ask him a question? Cause I've asked Gurinder a question and zoned out (purest form of consciousness by the way) until he was done rambling. I just want to know if anyone had a serious conversation with Charan, like for an extended period of time and without limitations.

If you've never watched any of UG Krishnamurthis recorded "satsangs" i highly recommend it. He is, or rather was (cause he dead)amazing, not because he knows anything or added value, but because he put everything at risk and made himself vulnerable to his cult. People screamed at him, he screamed back. They asked hundreds of personal questions, exposed their vulnerabilities to him and to a certain degree he exposed himself and certain weaknesses to them.

If I can't spend 100 hours telling a guru that I think he's a worthless piece of shit who knows absolutely nothing and that I hope he gets hit by a car, I have no use for him/her. You can't test someone by asking "what is karma, master?" Insulated wizard of oz people sitting on elevated platforms can burn, bro. They don't even exist to you or I in a real sense. It's performance art that aims to take advantage of our fear of death or whatever.

But who cares. We're all gonna die and there are no shit flinging shamans for those without proper university credentials (manjit)

This is such an unassuming piece of music. It straight GOES man. I wouldn't accept guru who didn't think these riffs slap and who wouldn't sit with me listening to this track at ear damaging volume. I've listened to it at least 10 times in a row now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teG8BpMdBe8

[Dungeness]

Hate is a valid emotion. Hate who you need to hate.

Psycho-babble aside, I think hate's valid because you've experienced it.
It's authentic, real, and shouldn't be suppressed mentally... only observed.

But I'll never believe it's healthy nor should it be acted out. Avenging angels
slaying the bad guys are for the comic books.

[Vijay]

Amar you asked the question
Why the money, why that much, why any of it?
Which I gave you the answer to. That they received a huge amount from the sale of Ranbaxy. That’s why the money and that’s why that much and that’s why any of it.
Are you initiated Amar?

[Fairy]

Jesse,

I have listened to some of Jiddu Krishnamurti's teachings or discourses on You Tube. He discarded the mantle the Theosophists gave him and was a reluctant Master. "At the Feet of The Master" is a great little book too.

Like Krishnamurti, Charan Singh was a bit grumpy too. Impatient with stupidity.

And yes, I had to line up like all of the others. I did not space out though. I remember thinking, he was just like a school headmaster, and a bit over it all really. Your You Tube music is okay but computer generated. You need ten thousand subscribers to moneatise though!

Have you watched any of Rupert Spira's talks on You Tube? Small and intimate good "food for thought" content.

Also there is a free App , "Black Lotus" with a young Indian chap who calls himself Om Swami. An ex businessman, who makes no pretence about his new business venture, "Black Lotus". He has created an ashram somewhere in India which would be conducive to quiet, peaceful and intimate retreats in a lovely natural environment - it looks. His You Tube talks are in English and Hindi.

But I am most fortunate, for I can go to several lovely Mahayana Buddhist Centres where I live and get teachings from Tibetan Lamas and Geshes, and ask questions on any part of the teachings I have not understood and get comprehensive answers. I don't mind paying to cover costs etc. These centres are located in beautiful peaceful environments and are not so big, they have lost their intimacy and personal connection.

One never stops learning, and although with You Tube and social media these days, it is still nice to join like-minded people at a lovely retreat centre to hear teachings on spiritual health and evolvement. Oh and to eat yummy vegan food.

I am also most fortunate, that I have peace and tranquility in my everyday life. It is a constant retreat of contentment.

[Mike England]

Jesse
For context:
“Insulated wizard of oz people sitting on elevated platforms can burn, bro. They don't even exist to you or I in a real sense.”
The punchline:
“It's performance art that aims to take advantage of our fear of death or whatever.”

Wow. I wish I’d a said that. Where do you get this stuff from.

And a Manjit dig to boot.

You are never a loan with your Guru

[Arjuna]

@ Brain. Think I've just bought my ticket first class to hell. (Mind you the present master has confused all if hell actually exists). Hell is closer to Beas. Im sure he sees it when he flies out of beas on his private jet.

The poor destined by their karma to be poor and condemned to lead moral lives to remain poor. Whilst the main man siphons money from share holders and buys his family luxuries and job titles (doubt whether they could lan an admin job if they were just regular people). The story of just another bunch of greedy people.

J Old Spice Rum has a lot to answer for. The new prashad. An eye opener and only to be consumed on Saturday nights. Mind the hangover on Sunday morning lol

[Georgy Porgy]

“And it is out of affection I beg Baba Ji to pay his bills and help His disciples Malvinder and Shivinder to do the same. He is responsible for both of them.”

Outright lies. It’s definitely not out of affection. And why should the guru pay a bill that isn’t his? And, he isn’t responsible for anyone else, disciplines or not. Are you going to pay my bills if I call you master? You completely cuckoo deranged looney tunes crackers.

[Jesse]

Fairy,

I'm talking about UG Krishnamurthi. Not Jiddu. Jiddu was a man on a stage like Gurinder and a million others. UG hated him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGY37Am7dQ4